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Re: Fishing the GA of a Fish-Initiate

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  • asbolo
    ... Right. I didn t express myself well here. The last line should be: I am questioning that karma and reincarnation is essential to our Life in the Spirit
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 1, 2010
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      >Juan: I am not questioning that karma and reincarnation shed essential light on the subject of Christ: I am questioning that karma and reincarnation is essential to the experience of Christ.
      >Kim: No, of course it's not essential to the experience of Christ, as saints have experienced...

      Right. I didn't express myself well here. The last line should be:

      "I am questioning that karma and reincarnation is essential to our Life in the Spirit once one has come to this experience of Christ".

      Steiner's idea about the "indispensability" of the teching of karma and reincarnation goes more (probably) in the direction of life between death and rebirth, of establishing the necessary or "correct" relationship to the Spirit. The idea --I think-- is more or less that since life after death is dependent on the contents of our soul during life, the "chopping off" the basic truth of reincarnation and karma present now in Christianity will result in humanity increasingly mising its evolutionary "goal" and falling prey to the Ahrimanic and Luciferic opposing forces as a result of what is fatally missing in this life between death and rebirth.

      A good part of the "indispensability" of Anthroposophy for the world --as he experienced it in his day-- is along these lines, i.e., the teaching is given out of the need of the dead more than the need of the living.

      My point is that once this relationship with Christ is established, there is the right relationship to the Spirit and the **teaching** of karma in the usual ways (a law, a principle, a concept) becomes unnecessary or irrelevant, putting intelectual or philosophical need aside.

      From the intelectual or philosophical perspective I agree that without it there is "a hole", but what I am describing is that at another, more essential level dealing with the experience of Christ, it becomes irrelevant in the way that it is usually presented or dealt with.

      I will try to explain this point a little more later on.

      Juan
    • Mikko Nuuttila
      As a curiosity, do you remember how Steiner said that in the next incarnation your head is formed from how your body was in the previous incarnation? It is
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 2, 2010
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        As a curiosity, do you remember how Steiner said that in the next incarnation your head is formed from how your body was in the previous incarnation? It is only the head-being that dies. I think Mees addressed this issue in his book about the secrets of the skeleton.
        Mikko



        From: asbolo <hylonome@...>
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 8:40:29 PM
        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Fishing the GA of a Fish-Initiate

         

        >Juan: I am not questioning that karma and reincarnation shed essential light on the subject of Christ: I am questioning that karma and reincarnation is essential to the experience of Christ.
        >Kim: No, of course it's not essential to the experience of Christ, as saints have experienced. ..

        Right. I didn't express myself well here. The last line should be:

        "I am questioning that karma and reincarnation is essential to our Life in the Spirit once one has come to this experience of Christ".

        Steiner's idea about the "indispensability" of the teching of karma and reincarnation goes more (probably) in the direction of life between death and rebirth, of establishing the necessary or "correct" relationship to the Spirit. The idea --I think-- is more or less that since life after death is dependent on the contents of our soul during life, the "chopping off" the basic truth of reincarnation and karma present now in Christianity will result in humanity increasingly mising its evolutionary "goal" and falling prey to the Ahrimanic and Luciferic opposing forces as a result of what is fatally missing in this life between death and rebirth.

        A good part of the "indispensability" of Anthroposophy for the world --as he experienced it in his day-- is along these lines, i.e., the teaching is given out of the need of the dead more than the need of the living.

        My point is that once this relationship with Christ is established, there is the right relationship to the Spirit and the **teaching** of karma in the usual ways (a law, a principle, a concept) becomes unnecessary or irrelevant, putting intelectual or philosophical need aside.

        From the intelectual or philosophical perspective I agree that without it there is "a hole", but what I am describing is that at another, more essential level dealing with the experience of Christ, it becomes irrelevant in the way that it is usually presented or dealt with.

        I will try to explain this point a little more later on.

        Juan


      • Kim Graae Munch
        In http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GospLuke/19090926p01.html Steiner talks about the necessity for not knowing about karma and reincarnation until some
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 2, 2010
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          In http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GospLuke/19090926p01.html Steiner talks about the necessity for not knowing about karma and reincarnation until some hundred years ago and of the necessity to know it now. He especially talks about the power of Faith, which is necessary for the future spiritual development, and that Faith we would not got if we had known about reincarnation and karma in the intermediate period.
          Kim

          --- Den man 1/3/10 skrev asbolo <hylonome@...>:

          Fra: asbolo <hylonome@...>
          Emne: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Fishing the GA of a Fish-Initiate
          Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          Dato: mandag 1. marts 2010 19.40

           

          >Juan: I am not questioning that karma and reincarnation shed essential light on the subject of Christ: I am questioning that karma and reincarnation is essential to the experience of Christ.
          >Kim: No, of course it's not essential to the experience of Christ, as saints have experienced. ..

          Right. I didn't express myself well here. The last line should be:

          "I am questioning that karma and reincarnation is essential to our Life in the Spirit once one has come to this experience of Christ".

          Steiner's idea about the "indispensability" of the teching of karma and reincarnation goes more (probably) in the direction of life between death and rebirth, of establishing the necessary or "correct" relationship to the Spirit. The idea --I think-- is more or less that since life after death is dependent on the contents of our soul during life, the "chopping off" the basic truth of reincarnation and karma present now in Christianity will result in humanity increasingly mising its evolutionary "goal" and falling prey to the Ahrimanic and Luciferic opposing forces as a result of what is fatally missing in this life between death and rebirth.

          A good part of the "indispensability" of Anthroposophy for the world --as he experienced it in his day-- is along these lines, i.e., the teaching is given out of the need of the dead more than the need of the living.

          My point is that once this relationship with Christ is established, there is the right relationship to the Spirit and the **teaching** of karma in the usual ways (a law, a principle, a concept) becomes unnecessary or irrelevant, putting intelectual or philosophical need aside.

          From the intelectual or philosophical perspective I agree that without it there is "a hole", but what I am describing is that at another, more essential level dealing with the experience of Christ, it becomes irrelevant in the way that it is usually presented or dealt with.

          I will try to explain this point a little more later on.

          Juan


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        • Juan Revilla
          ... Steiner always positions himself before Reality (including the supersensible spiritual reality or supersensible knowledge ) in the way needed by the
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 2, 2010
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            In http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GospLuke/19090926p01.html Steiner talks about the necessity for not knowing about karma and reincarnation until some hundred years ago and of the necessity to know it now. He especially talks about the power of Faith, which is necessary for the future spiritual development, and that Faith we would not got if we had known about reincarnation and karma in the intermediate period.
            Kim

            Steiner always positions himself before Reality (including the supersensible spiritual reality or "supersensible knowledge") in the way needed by the scientist of the spirit or Spiritual Science. To some this means that his descriptions or explanations are "brainy" or cold, but I think he always, and I mean always, takes great care to talk in such a way that the life, the heart and the warmth is present, even though some people are not able to see it or feel it.

            This positioning is what I called before "relationship", a particular, individual or "personal" relationship with the reality he perceives or grasps. This relationship or positioning of Steiner has 2 aspects: that of the "scientist of the spirit", and that of the teacher who is guiding us to approach supersensible reality in the right way, which means in a **different** way from what we are used to.

            The main result or aim is therefore not just an accumulation of knowledge but more importantly or above all a re-education of thinking. It is this re-education what to me is the single most important contribution of Antrhoposophy to the world, next to which the teaching of karma and reincarnation by itself looks insignificant if one realizes that this has been taught by many before and after him who had a greater impact on general culture outside of Europe.

            There is no question that, from Steiner's position(ing), teaching karma and reincarnation is indispensable: on the one hand from the point of view of a Science of the Spirit or knowledge of the higher worlds --I have no problem with that, and on the other hand from the point of view of development the "right" relationship to the spiritual world: it is from this second point of view where I think he is missing something important or essential from the Christian point of view.

            As I suggested before, the reason for this "miss" (what is I have partly explained already in other posts) is a result of his particular positioning, or in broader terms his particular "mission". But nothing of what I am saying makes sense or will be considerered relevant if we first do not accept the idea of Steiner's particular positioning or particular mission, that necessarily limited his scope in certain areas.

            The same thing from another angle: do we (or must we) all assume the position of a scientsis of the Spirit? Do we have too look at karma and reincarnation from that point of view alone? Do we all have to relate to supersensible knowledge like Steiner did? What happens when Karma and reincarnation is looked at from the point of view of traditional Christian values? (e.g., faith, hope, caritas...)

            ... not from the point of view of knowledge about Christ or about Christianity, not from the "Science of the Spirit", but from our relationship to the world when our soul is overflowing with the presence of Christ and we don't have to worry about being "subjective" to know that our own experience has a universal value.

            Juan
          • Kim Graae Munch
            You wrote: The same thing from another angle: do we (or must we) all assume the position of a scientsis of the Spirit? Do we have too look at karma and
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 2, 2010
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              Message
              You wrote:
              The same thing from another angle: do we (or must we) all assume the position of a scientsis of the Spirit? Do we have too look at karma and reincarnation from that point of view alone? Do we all have to relate to supersensible knowledge like Steiner did? What happens when Karma and reincarnation is looked at from the point of view of traditional Christian values? (e.g., faith, hope, caritas...)

              ... not from the point of view of knowledge about Christ or about Christianity, not from the "Science of the Spirit", but from our relationship to the world when our soul is overflowing with the presence of Christ and we don't have to worry about being "subjective" to know that our own experience has a universal value.
              No, everybody don't need to be esoteric scientists, which also Steiner stated himself. Today life itself helps the initiate through the initiation. The knowledge about reincarnation and karma is necessary to se the spiritual world as logic and just. What really could help the natural initiates of today is knowledge about the Holy spirit, as the road to Christ goes through the Holy Spirit. Another thing is that Reincarnation and Karma are the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.
               
              All this discussion concerns the path to Christ, when we have reached Christ, this is something we have put behind us.
               
              Please try to formulate what you mean Steiner lacks in connection with Christ (and other) in clear words. We are a little curious about what is so difficult to explain that you don't think that other than you yourself can understand it.
               
              Kim
               
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Juan Revilla
              Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 3:23 PM
              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Fishing the GA of a Fish-Initiate

               

              In http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ GospLuke/ 19090926p01. html Steiner talks about the necessity for not knowing about karma and reincarnation until some hundred years ago and of the necessity to know it now. He especially talks about the power of Faith, which is necessary for the future spiritual development, and that Faith we would not got if we had known about reincarnation and karma in the intermediate period.
              Kim

              Steiner always positions himself before Reality (including the supersensible spiritual reality or "supersensible knowledge") in the way needed by the scientist of the spirit or Spiritual Science. To some this means that his descriptions or explanations are "brainy" or cold, but I think he always, and I mean always, takes great care to talk in such a way that the life, the heart and the warmth is present, even though some people are not able to see it or feel it.

              This positioning is what I called before "relationship", a particular, individual or "personal" relationship with the reality he perceives or grasps. This relationship or positioning of Steiner has 2 aspects: that of the "scientist of the spirit", and that of the teacher who is guiding us to approach supersensible reality in the right way, which means in a **different* * way from what we are used to.

              The main result or aim is therefore not just an accumulation of knowledge but more importantly or above all a re-education of thinking. It is this re-education what to me is the single most important contribution of Antrhoposophy to the world, next to which the teaching of karma and reincarnation by itself looks insignificant if one realizes that this has been taught by many before and after him who had a greater impact on general culture outside of Europe.

              There is no question that, from Steiner's position(ing) , teaching karma and reincarnation is indispensable: on the one hand from the point of view of a Science of the Spirit or knowledge of the higher worlds --I have no problem with that, and on the other hand from the point of view of development the "right" relationship to the spiritual world: it is from this second point of view where I think he is missing something important or essential from the Christian point of view.

              As I suggested before, the reason for this "miss" (what is I have partly explained already in other posts) is a result of his particular positioning, or in broader terms his particular "mission". But nothing of what I am saying makes sense or will be considerered relevant if we first do not accept the idea of Steiner's particular positioning or particular mission, that necessarily limited his scope in certain areas.

              The same thing from another angle: do we (or must we) all assume the position of a scientsis of the Spirit? Do we have too look at karma and reincarnation from that point of view alone? Do we all have to relate to supersensible knowledge like Steiner did? What happens when Karma and reincarnation is looked at from the point of view of traditional Christian values? (e.g., faith, hope, caritas...)

              ... not from the point of view of knowledge about Christ or about Christianity, not from the "Science of the Spirit", but from our relationship to the world when our soul is overflowing with the presence of Christ and we don't have to worry about being "subjective" to know that our own experience has a universal value.

              Juan

            • Juan Revilla
              ... J: Right. We seem to be on the same track here. ... J: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul. What happens when we raise our
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 2, 2010
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                >Kim: No, everybody don't need to be esoteric scientists, which also Steiner stated himself. Today life itself helps the initiate through the initiation.

                J: Right. We seem to be on the same track here.


                >K: The knowledge about reincarnation and karma is necessary to se the spiritual world as logic and just.

                J: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul. What happens when we raise our understanding of karma and reincarnation to the consciousness soul?


                >What really could help the natural initiates of today is knowledge about the Holy spirit, as the road to Christ goes through the Holy Spirit. Another thing is that Reincarnation and Karma are the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.

                Interesting. Can you explain more?


                >All this discussion concerns the path to Christ, when we have reached Christ, this is something we have put behind us.

                I'm not sure what you mean by "this", so maybe I am not saying the same thing here: that essentially, once we have reached Christ, all doctrines, concepts or teachings about the spiritual (such as karma and reincarnation) cease to be "critical" or indispensable. In Him or through Him we have what we need for our spiritual future.

                I wonder if Steiner was asked this question directly or attempted to answer it before: Is teaching about karma and reincarnation so indispensable that finding this personal relationship with Christ will not make it "less indispensable"? What is it so indispensable about that TEACHING or CONCEPT that Christ cannot "shield" the human being from the negative effects of LIVING karma in such a way that the concept of it is left behind?


                >Please try to formulate what you mean Steiner lacks in connection with Christ (and other) in clear words. We are a little curious about what is so difficult to explain that you don't think that other than you yourself can understand it.
                >Kim

                I am only talking of karma and reincarnation now, and have already expressed almost everything I wanted to say (there is only one little point left). I'm sorry if you don't find it clear enough, or if you presume that I think I am the only one who understands.

                Juan
              • Kim Graae Munch
                ... J1: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul. What happens when we raise our understanding of karma and reincarnation to the
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 2, 2010
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                  >K1: The knowledge about reincarnation and karma is necessary to see the spiritual world as logic and just.

                  J1: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul. What happens when we raise our understanding of karma and reincarnation to the consciousness soul?

                  K2: Knowledge don't change the soul, but it can change the way you live, and that can change your soul (all three:).

                  The Holy Spirit is connected to the third hierarchy, and that's within time, incarnation and karma. Steiner says that the Holy Spirit is the raised Lucifer, and the Luciferic beings are the would be angels just above man, and the raised Luciferic beings are angels. Thirdly, the Holy Spirit are leading man through his life, and you can even communicate with the Holy Spirit if you know how. This knowledge you can even get from protestant and catholic priests.

                  So you have told what you had to tell about Steiner and Christ; it seems that you had intellectualized it so much that it escaped my scrutiny, but thats all right as the point can't have been heavy weight. I am curious if anybody else have caught it, and can relay their understanding.

                  Kim

                  --- Den tirs 2/3/10 skrev Juan Revilla <hylonome@...>:

                  Fra: Juan Revilla <hylonome@...>
                  Emne: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Fishing the GA of a Fish-Initiate
                  Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  Dato: tirsdag 2. marts 2010 20.17

                   


                  >Kim: No, everybody don't need to be esoteric scientists, which also Steiner stated himself. Today life itself helps the initiate through the initiation.

                  J: Right. We seem to be on the same track here.

                  >K: The knowledge about reincarnation and karma is necessary to se the spiritual world as logic and just.

                  J: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul. What happens when we raise our understanding of karma and reincarnation to the consciousness soul?

                  >What really could help the natural initiates of today is knowledge about the Holy spirit, as the road to Christ goes through the Holy Spirit. Another thing is that Reincarnation and Karma are the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.

                  Interesting. Can you explain more?

                  >All this discussion concerns the path to Christ, when we have reached Christ, this is something we have put behind us.

                  I'm not sure what you mean by "this", so maybe I am not saying the same thing here: that essentially, once we have reached Christ, all doctrines, concepts or teachings about the spiritual (such as karma and reincarnation) cease to be "critical" or indispensable. In Him or through Him we have what we need for our spiritual future.

                  I wonder if Steiner was asked this question directly or attempted to answer it before: Is teaching about karma and reincarnation so indispensable that finding this personal relationship with Christ will not make it "less indispensable" ? What is it so indispensable about that TEACHING or CONCEPT that Christ cannot "shield" the human being from the negative effects of LIVING karma in such a way that the concept of it is left behind?

                  >Please try to formulate what you mean Steiner lacks in connection with Christ (and other) in clear words. We are a little curious about what is so difficult to explain that you don't think that other than you yourself can understand it.
                  >Kim

                  I am only talking of karma and reincarnation now, and have already expressed almost everything I wanted to say (there is only one little point left). I'm sorry if you don't find it clear enough, or if you presume that I think I am the only one who understands.

                  Juan


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