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RE: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)

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  • Kim Graae Munch
    Yes, this guardian had been with you always, back from the time of Adam and Eva, but that has Anthroposophia not. Steiner sees the same subject from many sides
    Message 1 of 67 , Mar 1, 2010
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      Yes, this guardian had been with you always, back from the time of Adam and Eva, but that has Anthroposophia not.
      Steiner sees the same subject from many sides and in many contexts, but it generally don't mean that he contradicts himself.
      Kim
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
      Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 4:20 PM
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)

       

      Kim, everything is partly by grace. And the rest, hardwork. And the sentence you write below makes no sense with real facts on the ground, as Condelesa Rice would say, :) .
       
      That's just exposition, all exposition.
       
      Experience considers that who one encounters as the Guardian is not some astral image but a Being and this being is not Ahriman. Words can not convey properly or rather maybe they cannot always be understood properly given the realities of the spiritual worlds. Rudolf Steiner above all gives the best word for word out of his own experience than anyone I have seen yet when one encounters the experience he speaks about you realize a nuance that could not be expressed in human physical words was not understood. And the reason this is is because it has to be experienced to understand the words he spoke on some of these subjects. And that is why in so many instances when someone wants to do an 'I gotcha' moment they don't realize he spoke to the complete opposite in another lecture. And the reason is is because there is an experience, one experiences the words but not from a physical stand point of view but from a spiritual one, and then it makes sense, and really only out of experience.
       
      So, when one reads the words of the Guardian and then one meets the Guardian one realizes this Guardian has been with one always and for me the experience was shocking and yet bittersweet in that this being has always been with me. And this is love for me. And this is compassion for me. And this is knowing for me. And this is truth for me.
       
      All good things,
      Dottie
       


       
      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 2:48 AM



      Anthroposophia is partly by grace, Sophia gives birth to the Son, and he we receive by grace, it's Manas, the Ego of our Angel and of Christ.
      The lesser guardian is what we haven't purified yet where Sophia is what we have purified.
      Kim

      --- Den man 1/3/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

      Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Emne: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
      Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Dato: mandag 1. marts 2010 03.08

       
      that's what we have made of our own soul, that being is our own soul Kim, and if it be true that the being living within man is the guardian than I can easily see this being as what my soul, the anthroposophia in me, the christ in me essentially before taking up the sword of Michael consciously, what I look like...she is my perfect self that is how I understood her when I encountered her above me...and in Rudolf Steiner's words exactly 'I am you, you are me, I am your higher nature'. Now I experienced this before I knew of anthroposophia specifically but she had made my aquaintance along my way to finding her in the Fifth Gospel and the Gospel of Saint John.
       
      d

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sun, 2/28/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 12:48 PM



      Anthroposophia describes the best in mankind, where the lesser guardian of the threshold describes the state of the single being, whats in him of unfinished karma still waiting to be handled, and it's not nice to look at, as Steiner writes:
      3. First, an attempt will be made to give a narrative description
      of the meeting with this guardian. It is only
      through this meeting, in fact, that we become aware that
      the implanted connection between thinking, feeling, and
      willing has been undone.
      4. A thoroughly horrid, ghostly being stands before us.
      Hence we shall need full presence of mind and complete
      confidence in the safety and reliability of our cognitive
      path which we have had ample opportunity to acquire in
      the course of our training for this encounter.
      ...
      Kim


      --- Den søn 28/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

      Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Emne: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
      Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Dato: søndag 28. februar 2010 18.14

       
      I don't see the Guardian as a crude astral character at all. At all.
       
      Love,
      Dottie

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sun, 2/28/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 9:02 AM



      For me Anthroposophia is a higher being than the guardian of the treshold, which is a crude astral character, she is the delicate union between Sophia (Consciousness soul) and her newborn Son (Manas), also called the Chymical wedding.
      She is the total sum of these union's within mankind, and the longer mankind gets, the stronger and bigger she gets, and she is not and abstraction, she is a god in the same way as Christ.
      Kim

      --- Den søn 28/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

      Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Emne: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
      Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Dato: søndag 28. februar 2010 16.37

       
      Rudolf Steiner: (Kim's bold)
      "When it makes the attempt to enter, it is again and again thrown back into the physical world, by the being living within the soul which may be called the guardian of the threshold."
      Dottie: Kim, I think the part you might want to bold is the part that says:
      "by the being living within the soul".
       
      And to me this is speaking possibly of Anthroposophia. She is an invisible human being according to Rudolf Steiner and she moves through the soul of man, showing him what he has made up until now.
      If we consider she has the exact passage as man and has now moved through him and now ....well I don't know this for myself, but now has moved onward and upward. We can all consider this but as for me she is still standing in front of me showing me to myself. I know she is from higher spheres and yes she is ever begetting forward....I guess as Goethe says as well in his works.
       
      So to me that is the interesting and wonderful part of the quote. d
       
       
      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sat, 2/27/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 10:31 PM



      From The Threshold of the Spiritual World

      If the soul is too weak for conscious experience in the elemental world, on entering it the independence vanishes, just as a thought does which is not imprinted with sufficient clearness on the soul to live on as a distinct memory. In this case the soul cannot really enter the supersensible world at all with its consciousness. When it makes the attempt to enter, it is again and again thrown back into the physical world, by the being living within the soul which may be called the guardian of the threshold. And even if the soul has, so to speak, nibbled at the supersensible world, so that on sinking back into the physical world it retains something of the supersensible in its consciousness, such spoil from another sphere often only causes confusion in the life of thought. It is quite impossible to fall into such confusion if the faculty of sound judgment, as it may be acquired in the physical world, be adequately cultivated. By thus reinforcing the faculty of judgment, the soul will develop the right relation to the events and beings of super-sensible worlds. For in order to live consciously in those worlds, an attitude of the soul is necessary which cannot be developed in the physical world with the same intensity with which it appears in supersensible worlds. This is the attitude of surrender to what is being experienced. We must steep ourselves in the experience and identify ourselves with it; and we must be able to do this to such a degree that we see ourselves outside our own being and feel ourselves within some other being. A transformation of our own being into the other with which we are having the experience must take place. If we do not possess this faculty of transformation, we cannot experience anything genuine in supersensible worlds. For there all experience is due to our being able to realise this feeling, “Now I am transformed in a certain definite way; now I am vitally present in a being which through its nature transforms mine in this particular way.” This transformation of self, this conscious projection of oneself into other beings, is life in supersensible worlds. By this process of conscious self-projection into others, we learn to know the beings and events of those worlds.
      And
      We must further consider that when thinking develops into the faculty of transformation and begins to be at home in the elemental world, it cannot be used in that world in the way that is right and healthy for the physical world. What is thinking like in our ordinary world? Observe it as you follow its movement. A person is aware of thoughts in his soul; he knows that he is grasping, spinning out, connecting and separating these thoughts. Inwardly he feels himself to be the master of his thoughts, which seem rather passive; they allow themselves to be connected and separated, to be formed and then dismissed. This life of thought must develop in the elemental world a step further. There a person is not in a position to deal with thoughts that are passive. If someone really succeeds in entering that world with his clairvoyant soul, it seems as though his thoughts were not things over which he has any command: they are living beings. Only imagine how it is when you cannot form and connect and separate your thoughts but, instead, each one of them in your consciousness begins to have a life of its own, a life as an entity in itself. You thrust your consciousness into a place, it seems, where you don't find thoughts that are like those in the physical world but where they are living beings. I can only use a grotesque picture which will help us somehow to realize how different our thinking must become from what it is here. Imagine sticking your head into an anthill, while your thinking comes to a stop — you would have ants in your head instead of thoughts! It is just like that, when your soul dips down into the elemental world; your thoughts become so alive that they themselves join each other, separate from each other and lead a life of their own. We truly need a stronger power of soul to confront these living thought-beings with our consciousness than we do with the passive thoughts of the physical world, which allow themselves to be formed at will, to be connected and separated not only sensibly but often even quite foolishly. They are patient things, these thoughts of our ordinary world; they let the human soul do anything it likes with them. But it is quite different when we thrust our soul into the elemental world, where our thoughts will lead an independent life. A human being must hold his own with his soul life and assert his will in confronting these active, lively, no longer passive thoughts. In the physical world our thinking can be completely stupid and this does not harm us at all. But if we do foolish things with our thinking in the elemental world, it may well happen that our stupid thoughts, creeping around there as independent beings, can hurt us, can even cause real pain.
      Kim
      --- Den lør 27/2/10 skrev Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>:

      Fra: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Emne: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - Comprehension or Sensitivity S
      Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Dato: lørdag 27. februar 2010 22.00

       
      With PoF thinking it's always possible to understand the abstract/normal thinking, but the abstract thinking have difficulties understanding the PoF thinking.

      PoF is a way to educate the Consciousness soul which is a prerequisite for the union with Manas.

      From http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ WrkAng_index. html :
      ANTHROPOSOPHICAL understanding of the spirit must not be a merely theoretical view of the world, but a leaven, an actual power in life. Only when we manage to investigate this view of the world so fundamentally that it really comes alive in us does it properly fulfill its mission.
      Kim

      --- Den lør 27/2/10 skrev fs13997 <fs13997@yahoo. com>:

      Fra: fs13997 <fs13997@yahoo. com>
      Emne: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - Comprehension or Sensitivity S
      Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Dato: lørdag 27. februar 2010 09.19

       


      --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:
      >
      > As Fred said, Abstract thinking = Normal thinking, and some are more disciplined than others.

      Fred:
      Right.

      >
      > PoF thinking is understanding whatever subject you go into, the heart sorrow of a person or the flow in a star, the formulas of relativity, the functioning of the Ahriman deception, or the being of Michael. Goethe did understand the theory of colors no less deep than Newton.

      Fred:
      The kind of thinking that is proposed in PoF is the result of the exceptional act of observing thinking. Until thinking is dependent from the brain, it is reflected thinking. Through the observation of a thought the goal is the free thinking from the brain and to connect it to its source, which is not thinking anymore. When thinking is freed it becomes one with feeling and will and it is connected with the central etheric current that is eastern tradition is called kundalini. Thus, this is an exceptional experience. Living thinking is different from a kind of thinking that is rich in content and imagery. It is outside ordinary consciousness and it is beyond dualism. Because the I does not receive its support from the brain and the senses, it is not constrained by a dualistic vision of reality and therefore it does not experience anything outside itself, which otherwise would constitute a non-I, and therefore, a dualism.

      >
      > The geniuses within various fields, like Einstein and Niels Bohr, didn't think abstract, for them it was reality.

      Fred:
      They were thinking in images, which are not as abstract as thinking in words. The moment of intuition of a physical law for a moment touches beyond the mere sphere of the reflection.

      >
      > Normal (abstract) thinking gives a superficial knowledge without real understanding, even though people think they do, especially the spiritual world is kept abstract where the goal is to understand it in relation to the physical every day world as practical understanding, fe stays beings like Michael aloof and abstract. And that goes both if you chose the religious or esoteric path, it should be practical understanding. If you read the writings of various saints it's very concrete, no abstract misty thoughts here, maybe only about the one and only creative God, but I am not sure abstract is the right word here.

      Fred:
      Yes, and the books should be read as imaginatively as possible.

      >
      > Abstract thinking is really the best way not to understand our world. The more abstract you take take Haiti the less you really understand what happens.

      Fred:
      Agree.

      >
      > Kim
      >
      >
      > --- Den lør 27/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@.. .>:
      >
      > I agree but one does need to have the ability to think in this manner I have found. I don't think this way and its a very big issue for me when I need to understand people who work in a mathematical and scientific field in their respective higher fields....even on this list wtih a few people a few years back i was consistantly saying 'that is too abstract for me' and i had to reach in a new way that is really different than the way i reach....it' s kinda like abstract reaches out and maybe etheric thinking reaches in but up as well and just about avoids abstractness in a way....d
      >
      >
      > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      >
      >
      >
      > --- On Fri, 2/26/10, Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      > Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - Comprehension or Sensitivity S
      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 10:43 AM
      >
      >
      > I think PoF is one big fight against abstract thinking, with Goethe as
      > an example of one who goes into the thing in contrast to Newton who
      > looks with abstract distance on things. Abstract thinking is Ahrimanic
      > thinking, in family with statistics, working against compassion.
      > Kim
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold
      > <dottie_z@> wrote:
      > >
      > > But he also says we have to be able to think abstractly as well:) he's
      > a funny cat that Steiner ey? d
      > >
      > >
      > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      > out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@ wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@
      > >
      > Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel -
      > Comprehension or Sensitivity S
      > > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 11:45 PM
      > >
      > > Why is it out of discussion? I thought another name for PoF is
      > Goethean Thinking, so it existed before PoF. Besides that, I think the
      > Idea have been mentioned before, fe by Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and
      > Aquinas, even few could use it, it was still a goal, as also Love is.
      > >
      > > The primary power of Ahriman is Dualism, and it's absolute opposite is
      > Monism, and it's not a doctrine it's a lifestyle, and if you use some
      > PoF thinking you will reach the
      > same conclusion.
      > > Â
      > > Another thing is that the hebrew people where educated by God through
      > many generations to make ready for the Christ incarnation, it should
      > give Christ the best conditions to overcome both the Luciferic and
      > Ahrimanian temptation, which included the spiritual and cultural
      > context.
      > >
      > > By the way, Steiner talks against abstract thinking and for concrete
      > thinking. Abstract thinking is an Ahrimanian lure.
      > >
      > > Kim
      > >
      > >
      > > --- Den fre 26/2/10 skrev fs13997 fs13997@:
      > >
      > > That "the thinking" is alike PoF is out of discussion. PoF sets the
      > theoretical basis for the exercises of the concentration and pure
      > perceiving. There is no prior introduction of those exercises before
      > PoF. It was not possible because human consciousness was not yet ready.
      > All that could be done was to avoid thought, not to possess
      > it.
      > >
      > >
      > > You need more than knowledge or a worldview to win Ahriman. Any
      > doctrine, including anthroposophy becomes a deadweight if it is not
      > enlivened through the experience of etheric thinking. That experience
      > defeats lucifer. But that experience corresponds to the death of the
      > ego, and death defeats Ahriman because he fears death.
      > >
      > > In addition, until thinking remains a reflection of its etheric life
      > there can be no real fraternity in the world. Until we think using an
      > abstract thinking the world will be divided.
      > >
      > > Where is there a teaching about the need to overcome ordinary
      > thinking?
      > >
      > > Fred
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, Kim Graae Munch
      > kimgm@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > There are more in the Hebrew Monotheism than religion, the
      > knowledge, the worldview, and the thinking (which is PoF alike)
      > and
      > gives the best antidote to Ahriman and can be used to unite the world.
      > > >
      > > > An interesting view are that the Hebrew should travel over the whole
      > world to spread the message of Christ. They didn't take his message to
      > them, but the inertia was so strong that they were still spread out all
      > over the world, just without spreading the world - tragic.
      > > >
      > > > Steiner mentioned that most of mankind was at a development state as
      > Europe around 300-400 after Christ, so to write religion fully of is a
      > little premature.
      > > >
      > > > When one develops one casts old customs and religions off and takes
      > new on, until you lastly leaves earthly esoteric organisations behind,
      > as Anthroposophy and Theosophy, with the higher initition. But the
      > gained knowledge and experience will of course be part of you.
      > > >
      > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > > --- Den fre 26/2/10 skrev fs13997
      > fs13997@ >:
      > > >
      > > > Fra: fs13997 fs13997@ >
      > > However, with the end of the kali yuga ends also the need for
      > religions. It does not mean that they go overnight. It means that
      > Steiner has made public the third revelation, the revelation of the Holy
      > Spirit, and although religions may be around for a long time, their
      > mission of keeping the memory of the Divine has ended.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > After Steiner even if every religious book and all
      > religions would
      > disappear but we still had PoF with an understanding of the
      > concentration it would not matter (except for the cultural damage).
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The new times call for a conscious personal perception of the
      > spiritual, initially in the form of perception of thinking as a
      > spiritual activity. Instead, what is happening is that people are simply
      > abandoning religions and substituting them with nothing, just
      > materialism. Often, this is not even the product of a conscious
      > determination. There is simply nothing in their life that requires to
      > think about it, and they are too busy with other things. Of course
      > education plays a big role especially in colleges where almost
      > universally students are indoctrinated into relativism. Relativism and
      > the related relativistic culture is the real problem out there. In a
      > lecture in 1919 Steiner said that unless the way of teaching
      > in
      > universities had changed Europe would have been devastated in thirty
      > years.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > And, of course, the second conflict appened because the real causes
      > of the first were not removed after the end of the first conflict. And
      > the second conflict was pretty much a conflict between lucifer and
      > ahriman, but the latter is stronger, so he prevailed.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Fred
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, Kim Graae Munch
      > <kimgm@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > He was right in the way that it should not be known at that time,
      > and I think that he didn't know and should not know, but the resistance
      > knew and thats the reason for Holocaust.
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Steiner wrote about their role:
      > > >
      > >
      > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
      > > >
      > > > > It is extremely important that this should be borne in
      > > >
      > > > > mind, and one who examines the continuation of the old Hebrew
      > impulse
      > > >
      > > > > can still see at the present day Monotheism ruling in its greatest
      > > >
      > > > > extreme among the learned Rabbis, in their learned Rabbinism. It
      > is
      > > >
      > > > > the task of this particular people to give as an impulse that the
      > > >
      > > > > world-principle can only be unity. Therefore we might say: All the
      > > >
      > > > > other nations, peoples, and Spirits of the Age had an analytic
      > task,
      > > >
      > > > > the task of representing the world-principle as being composed of
      > > >
      > > > > different Beings; for example, the most extreme abstraction of the
      > > >
      > > > > Monon in India was soon
      > divided into a trinity, as the one god of
      > > >
      > > > > Christianity is divided into Three Persons. All the other peoples
      > > >
      > > > > have the task of analyzing the foundations of the world and thus
      > to
      > > >
      > > > > fill their several parts with rich contents, to fill themselves
      > with
      > > >
      > > > > rich material for conceptions that may lovingly comprehend the
      > > >
      > > > > phenomena. The Semitic people has the task of ignoring all
      > plurality
      > > >
      > > > > and synthetically devoting itself to the unity; hence, for
      > example,
      > > >
      > > > > through this very impulse, the power of speculation, the power of
      > > >
      > > > > synthetic thought is the greatest imaginable in the Kabbalistic
      > > >
      > > > > studies.
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > All that could possibly ever
      > be spun out of the unity by
      > > >
      > > > > the synthetic, inclusive activity of the
      > ÃÆ'¢â‚¬ËÅ"ÃÆ'‚ IÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
      > ÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢,
      > > >
      > > > > has been spun out by the Semitic Spirit in the course of thousands
      > of
      > > >
      > > > > years. That is the great polarity between Pluralism and Monism,
      > and
      > > >
      > > > > that is the significance of the Semitic impulse in the world.
      > Monism
      > > >
      > > > > is not possible without Pluralism, and the latter is not possible
      > > >
      > > > > without the former. Therefore we must recognize the necessity for
      > > >
      > > > > both.
      > > >
      > > > > Kim
      > > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
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      >
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    • dottie zold
      Dan, can t it be that the being Anthroposophia as she was at the Fall, or the ....well can t it be that this being was made up of those three elements Adri s
      Message 67 of 67 , Mar 3, 2010
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        Dan, can't it be that the being Anthroposophia as she was at the Fall, or the ....well can't it be that this being was made up of those three elements Adri's speaking about and then there is a transformation as she has moved through man.....like she has to do it first and then we can....and that's how she can be seen as the Guardian? ....something d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Wed, 3/3/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
        Subject: RE: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 7:00 AM



        Kim, thanks for the below: I have not had a chance to read it yet but will in a bit, busy day to day I am hoping. Anyhow I too check other places but usually it is out of inspiration of my considerations of my studies that have then become experience. See  I can't just read someones words and then make that experience mine, I have to have the experience, this is in my karma body for some reason. And truth be told I like it that way. And the reason is that I can know I am finding it myself and then seeking the answers elsewhere to verify what I have experienced, they  kind of meet in the middle. My life would be much easier if I repeated what others said and failed to look for understanding through experience out of my studies. That's why many times I say 'I know this not out of my own experience' when I relate certain things from Rudolf Steiner or Sergei and even Adri, I have to be open through my studies and contemplation to what is around me and believe it or not its kind of a Philosophy of Freedom thing where one pierces through out of thinking...if I stopped short from piercing through and read others words and they became my experience I would be stopping short. I cannot do that as it is not good for me. And I see all around me people saying 'this one said and that one said and I don't feel the experience of the person and how they are with others shows me that they haven't had the experience yet of the words being spoken. I could parrot anyone if I wanted to and I choose not to do that. I just can't. When I was younger yet but not since finding Steiner can I do that.
         
        I read your response to Juan, at least the bottom where I found Adri's words and then I checked back to see where the post was as I havn't been able to keep up. And the quote you read about the being of the threshold is great. Adri's a good student of spiritual works as she enters into these things very methodically and with great humility. She's just so beautiful and I am so thankful to have encountered her in this lifetime. I love reading her now as I know her whereas before I could read her one paper and she was apart in a way but now she is known to me so I can read her, I just haven't had time. And just like she has a few differences in understanding with Sergei I too have questions of certain things but she knows I am not going against what she has rather I am trying to find my own connection to it from how I can do this thing.
         
        She has a good point although I would have to read the whole paper where she speaks of these beings in each of our bodies, and how collectively, if I understand her properly, they make up this being of the Threshold. I know threads are so extremely difficult to separate and for me I would have to be able to enter into that and not just read it. I have to have a feel for it as well. It's just like the Magdalene and the other Mary's, Lazarus and John, the threads are so intricate and to me it matters that I can separate them. When Sergei speaks about where Steiner and Wegmen were, and what bodies they related to at the raising of Lazarus I could understand why it was that I could not find Lazarus without thinking he was Rudolf Steiner. It took me a few years to work throiugh that mystery until I came to Sergei's words via Adri. And then it made sense and I could let that stand for what I was experiencing although I had no reference point in the word, I had to find it after I had the experience that Lazarus and Rudolf Steiner were one and the same. Although they weren't on a lower level they were on a higher level. That's incredibly important to me Kim that I work through the mystery out of what I found or am finding within me that can then be verified outwardly.
         
        And even with that said I have to say I have to know that just as everyone was saying no to Anthroposophia when I first started this whole journey and also the Magdalene before she became famous again! this being of the Threshold has something to do also with Anthroposophia. What it is I am not sure but it is something.....
         
        All good things,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Tue, 3/2/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
        Subject: RE: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 11:56 AM



        Dottie, the possibility to err regarding spiritual knowledge are so great that I want to verify all knowledge I collect, either it's from others or from own experience, as this kind of experience is too easy to misunderstand I find it necessary to cross check with other sources.

        Whats  the problem around the seven devils Christ exorcises out of Magdalene?

        Adriana have written two text's which handle the lesser guardian and it follows fully my interpretation, where the first handles it extensively "Faith, Love, and Hope as a Counterforce to Evil":
        The Earthly Ethers and the Double
        The effect of the above beings of opposition on the Astral body, Etheric body and physical body weakens them, leaving the human being vulnerable to negative earthly forces.
        In the same way that retarded beings influence the creation of retarded soul forces so too do negative Etheric energies that exist in the world influence the creation of retarded Etheric forces in the human being. A combination of retarded forces created by the influence of retarded beings in the Physical, Etheric and Astral bodies and the retarded or degenerated Etheric energies that create retarded Etheric forces in the human being, these various doubles or shadow forces can be said to collectively form one being that Spiritual Science calls the personal ‘double’ or doppelganger. He forms, according to Rudolf Steiner, a part of the ‘Lesser Guardian of the Threshold’ whose existence in us from birth to death bars our spiritual progress:
        ‘…There arises the phenomenon known as the Guardian of the Threshold — the appearance of the lower double of man. The spiritual being of man, composed of his impulses of will, his desires and his thoughts, appears to the Initiate in visible form. It is a form that is sometimes repugnant and terrible, for it is the offspring of his good and bad desires and of his karma — it is their personification in the astral world…’
        Put another way we may say that the influence of Ahriman, Lucifer, and Asuras on the being of man cause there to arise: beings of doubt hatred and fear of the spiritual in the Astral body, the Etheric body and in the Physical body and that this attracts forces that help to create and maintain a collective personal double, one and the same as that being that Rudolf Steiner calls the Lesser Guardian of the Threshold, that becomes apparent to us as soon as we enter the spiritual world as a separate entity that is at once composed of the three beasts of our creation and also separate from them. See Above image, called "The Doppelganger" from a drawing made by Rudolph Steiner for a stained glass window. It depicts the serpentine nature of the double showing the 7 Chakras. He comes from a crack in the earth, delineating his connection to the degenerated earthly forces. The human being sitting on the mountaintop of objectivity must send out beneficent spiritual forces to heal and transform the double.
        Rudolf Steiner Characterises these beasts or doubles to imaginative consciousness:
        The double or beast of doubt is red and has a glassy eye The double or beast of hatred is spotted yellow and bares his teeth The double or beast of fear is blue and has a bony mind
        It is this third being that lies in our will and therefore our physical bodies that make us especially vulnerable to earthly forces and allows their entry into the human being. The Three Streams of Evil in the Macrocosmic World
        Rudolf Steiner tells us that what forms a part of the inner man during life becomes the outer world after death, we can call this a law of ‘Inversion’:
        “At first, man has within him what he later sees around him…All that lives today in the inner being of man, his thoughts, his feelings, will find expression in the outer world and become his surroundings. The future lies within man.”
        And "The Double"
        At a certain point in our development we become capable of reaching the threshold of the sense world and the spiritual worlds. At this time man comes across this being which Rudolf describes in many books as the lesser guardian of the threshold.
        ‘…There arises the phenomenon known as the Guardian of the Threshold — the appearance of the lower double of man. The spiritual being of man, composed of his impulses of will, his desires and his thoughts, appears to the Initiate in visible form. It is a form that is sometimes repugnant and terrible, for it is the offspring of his good and bad desires and of his karma — it is their personification in the astral world…’
        This being bars the way to the spiritual world because while ever we carry the baggage of our faults and fallacies all our lower desires needs wants, all our impulses of will, all that is perishable and not eternal we are too heavy and cannot enter.
        It is a real blessing to see this being because on seeing what we have created of this being and its hideous form we are encouraged to work on ourselves to perfect ourselves so that we might do away with the influence of this being.
        It is no surprise then that the existence of this being in our life body leads to illnesses of our organs. In the Astral body this being is demonstrated in psychological, nerve illnesses.
        Love, Kim

        --- Den tirs 2/3/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@...>:

        Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
        Emne: RE: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Dato: tirsdag 2. marts 2010 18.18

         
        Kim, I don't need to ask my sister what she thinks as its my own study and we may see things the same and we may see things differently. I have only just recently been able to begin reading her work, although I read the first one that made me reach out to her in the first place, as I need to find it myself through experience and my own contemplations. That's who I am it seems.
         
        In my life I have been blessed to have to dig through the dirt to find what I was looking for and it is out of this that I have had certain experiences occur. I encountered Anthroposophia before I encountered Sergei's work through the Gospel of Saint John and also through The Fifth Gospel. If I had just read his words and her words I would have missed the step I needed to experience the Being properly. Others do it differently, me, myself, I encounter the Beings first and then I come to know their names. I encounter their essence out of my studies and contemplations and desire to serve and then I come to know who it is that I am interacting with or experiencing. This is the way that Steiner says it occurs from the spiritual beings and this is what is different from the earthly way we meet another.
         
        I wholly disagree with what you have written below of the pigs and of the Magdalene. That's just awful. And that goes to show what words do versus what experience understands.
         
        You are in error I believe.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie
        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Tue, 3/2/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: RE: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 8:41 AM



        Dear Dottie,
        I think you sould ask Adriana if she thinks that the lesser guardian is Anthroposophia.
        When Christ drives demons into pigs, the seven demons of Magdalene, and so forth, they are the stuff the lesser guardian are build from.
        Kim
        -----Original Message-----
        From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
        Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 5:03 PM
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: RE: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)

         
        Dear Kim and friends, just to be very clear, but I think y'all know me better than that, this is not my writings Kim has pointed to it is that of Adriana Koulias. Just to be clear. And I am in no way stating that she nor Sergei nor anyone is in agreement with me regarding the Being Anthroposophia and the Lesser Guardian, rather it is my own study and considerations as I have been tied up like Jacob the last few years and could not get to be a regular part of the study group although I hold it from within and am graced that they meet and the friendships born.
         
        Kim, to my understanding of Rudolf Steiner's words and to my own personal experience of the Being, she shows us to ourselves. Now, if you think your'e gonna be smelling like roses that would not be true, hwoever by the time you get to encounter this being consciously or that she appears before you in essence, you have already passed the Guardian.... so is my experience, and so maybe then you get to meet the Guardian in a new way as she has moved through your soul and can then show yourself and encourage you further onward and ever upward.  Maybe that's what occurs in transition or in passage or something... I don't know but it seems to me that She is the Lesser Guardian.
         
        Evil beings .... hmmm, see the Lesser Guardian is not evil by far and I am not sure where...oh you get it from the words ....see that's what I am saying...the words don't convey the feeling of the meeting and so what is brought before man's mind from reading the words, or were in mind, that this was a ghastly being that would frighting the beejeezits out of me and it did, but not from what I saw although that was something to behold and no human being could look like that and yet one did, although I too will say that this is a form of an earlier state of man it seems, anyway...oh and that's what Da Vinci practiced painting about others, he was seeing their double, or he was seeing their astral form...I guess being a Judas would allow him to see such a thing, anywho back to the point that the seeing is one thing but the feeling that arises up is nothign short of magnamatic compassion for what one has created, a great gulf of silence and sadness yet a resolve a most sobering resolve to serve the Christ even in that form that one then recognizes within.
         
        So the nuance is that the words say one thing but the feeling of the encounter if one is sincere or has been sincere I imagine in their want to serve Christ, is another one all together.
         
        This being could not be evil because it is said to look like that or we ourselves are evil Kim, for that is us. We are that. That Being is showing us to ourselves and what we have made up until that moment in time. It is horrid in feeling nature when one encounters such love for Christ in that Being.
         
        Love,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Tue, 3/2/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: RE: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 1:56 AM



        On your homepage Anthroposophia. org you have the following doc:
        Anthroposophia – The Goddess of Our Times, What is Her Relationship to the World and to Anthroposophists?
        There it is hinted that she is Archangelic, but that don't match the definition of the lesser guardian as he shows our base drives and and other lackings.
        In the spiritual world beings are as they looks, so an evil looking being are evil, they can not simulate as man can in the physical. So when Steiner describes the lesser guardian as "A thoroughly horrid, ghostly being stands before us." so it's also a characterization of the being as evil.
        Anthroposophia is a connection of Man and heavenly Wisdom, which is the connection between the Consciousness Soul and Manas, and it's a danger to substitute her with the Lesser Guardian, and that is the only reason I have been so persistent in this debate. I will not continue as it seems we won't get any longer.
        Love, Kim


        --- Den tirs 2/3/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

        Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        Emne: RE: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Dato: tirsdag 2. marts 2010 05.01

         
        Well, I would disagree with you that Anthroposophia has not been with us since the beginning. There has been an evolution of the soul and it seems to me that she is begotten out of this but in and of itself is the extention. If we consider Rudolf Steiner's opening lecture for the founding of the Society in February 1913 I think we might have to see a continuity or an emergence or an evolution of a Being that meets man's soul evolution, the evolution of humanity itself.
         
        I don't think you are correct in seeing that there is a contradiction in what Steiner shared.....in relations to what I am saying I understand. I think its a matter of experience although I am not saying I am correct about Anthroposophia and the Guardian only that there is a similarity of how the Being holds man as he tries to enter further along the path.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: RE: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:35 AM



        Yes, this guardian had been with you always, back from the time of Adam and Eva, but that has Anthroposophia not.
        Steiner sees the same subject from many sides and in many contexts, but it generally don't mean that he contradicts himself.
        Kim
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
        Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 4:20 PM
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)

         
        Kim, everything is partly by grace. And the rest, hardwork. And the sentence you write below makes no sense with real facts on the ground, as Condelesa Rice would say, :) .
         
        That's just exposition, all exposition.
         
        Experience considers that who one encounters as the Guardian is not some astral image but a Being and this being is not Ahriman. Words can not convey properly or rather maybe they cannot always be understood properly given the realities of the spiritual worlds. Rudolf Steiner above all gives the best word for word out of his own experience than anyone I have seen yet when one encounters the experience he speaks about you realize a nuance that could not be expressed in human physical words was not understood. And the reason this is is because it has to be experienced to understand the words he spoke on some of these subjects. And that is why in so many instances when someone wants to do an 'I gotcha' moment they don't realize he spoke to the complete opposite in another lecture. And the reason is is because there is an experience, one experiences the words but not from a physical stand point of view but from a spiritual one, and then it makes sense, and really only out of experience.
         
        So, when one reads the words of the Guardian and then one meets the Guardian one realizes this Guardian has been with one always and for me the experience was shocking and yet bittersweet in that this being has always been with me. And this is love for me. And this is compassion for me. And this is knowing for me. And this is truth for me.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie
         


         
        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 2:48 AM



        Anthroposophia is partly by grace, Sophia gives birth to the Son, and he we receive by grace, it's Manas, the Ego of our Angel and of Christ.
        The lesser guardian is what we haven't purified yet where Sophia is what we have purified.
        Kim

        --- Den man 1/3/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

        Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        Emne: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Dato: mandag 1. marts 2010 03.08

         
        that's what we have made of our own soul, that being is our own soul Kim, and if it be true that the being living within man is the guardian than I can easily see this being as what my soul, the anthroposophia in me, the christ in me essentially before taking up the sword of Michael consciously, what I look like...she is my perfect self that is how I understood her when I encountered her above me...and in Rudolf Steiner's words exactly 'I am you, you are me, I am your higher nature'. Now I experienced this before I knew of anthroposophia specifically but she had made my aquaintance along my way to finding her in the Fifth Gospel and the Gospel of Saint John.
         
        d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Sun, 2/28/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 12:48 PM



        Anthroposophia describes the best in mankind, where the lesser guardian of the threshold describes the state of the single being, whats in him of unfinished karma still waiting to be handled, and it's not nice to look at, as Steiner writes:
        3. First, an attempt will be made to give a narrative description
        of the meeting with this guardian. It is only
        through this meeting, in fact, that we become aware that
        the implanted connection between thinking, feeling, and
        willing has been undone.
        4. A thoroughly horrid, ghostly being stands before us.
        Hence we shall need full presence of mind and complete
        confidence in the safety and reliability of our cognitive
        path which we have had ample opportunity to acquire in
        the course of our training for this encounter.
        ...
        Kim


        --- Den søn 28/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

        Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        Emne: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Dato: søndag 28. februar 2010 18.14

         
        I don't see the Guardian as a crude astral character at all. At all.
         
        Love,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Sun, 2/28/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 9:02 AM



        For me Anthroposophia is a higher being than the guardian of the treshold, which is a crude astral character, she is the delicate union between Sophia (Consciousness soul) and her newborn Son (Manas), also called the Chymical wedding.
        She is the total sum of these union's within mankind, and the longer mankind gets, the stronger and bigger she gets, and she is not and abstraction, she is a god in the same way as Christ.
        Kim

        --- Den søn 28/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

        Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        Emne: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Dato: søndag 28. februar 2010 16.37

         
        Rudolf Steiner: (Kim's bold)
        "When it makes the attempt to enter, it is again and again thrown back into the physical world, by the being living within the soul which may be called the guardian of the threshold."
        Dottie: Kim, I think the part you might want to bold is the part that says:
        "by the being living within the soul".
         
        And to me this is speaking possibly of Anthroposophia. She is an invisible human being according to Rudolf Steiner and she moves through the soul of man, showing him what he has made up until now.
        If we consider she has the exact passage as man and has now moved through him and now ....well I don't know this for myself, but now has moved onward and upward. We can all consider this but as for me she is still standing in front of me showing me to myself. I know she is from higher spheres and yes she is ever begetting forward....I guess as Goethe says as well in his works.
         
        So to me that is the interesting and wonderful part of the quote. d
         
         
        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Sat, 2/27/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - PoF and Elementals :)
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 10:31 PM



        From The Threshold of the Spiritual World

        If the soul is too weak for conscious experience in the elemental world, on entering it the independence vanishes, just as a thought does which is not imprinted with sufficient clearness on the soul to live on as a distinct memory. In this case the soul cannot really enter the supersensible world at all with its consciousness. When it makes the attempt to enter, it is again and again thrown back into the physical world, by the being living within the soul which may be called the guardian of the threshold. And even if the soul has, so to speak, nibbled at the supersensible world, so that on sinking back into the physical world it retains something of the supersensible in its consciousness, such spoil from another sphere often only causes confusion in the life of thought. It is quite impossible to fall into such confusion if the faculty of sound judgment, as it may be acquired in the physical world, be adequately cultivated. By thus reinforcing the faculty of judgment, the soul will develop the right relation to the events and beings of super-sensible worlds. For in order to live consciously in those worlds, an attitude of the soul is necessary which cannot be developed in the physical world with the same intensity with which it appears in supersensible worlds. This is the attitude of surrender to what is being experienced. We must steep ourselves in the experience and identify ourselves with it; and we must be able to do this to such a degree that we see ourselves outside our own being and feel ourselves within some other being. A transformation of our own being into the other with which we are having the experience must take place. If we do not possess this faculty of transformation, we cannot experience anything genuine in supersensible worlds. For there all experience is due to our being able to realise this feeling, “Now I am transformed in a certain definite way; now I am vitally present in a being which through its nature transforms mine in this particular way.” This transformation of self, this conscious projection of oneself into other beings, is life in supersensible worlds. By this process of conscious self-projection into others, we learn to know the beings and events of those worlds.
        And
        We must further consider that when thinking develops into the faculty of transformation and begins to be at home in the elemental world, it cannot be used in that world in the way that is right and healthy for the physical world. What is thinking like in our ordinary world? Observe it as you follow its movement. A person is aware of thoughts in his soul; he knows that he is grasping, spinning out, connecting and separating these thoughts. Inwardly he feels himself to be the master of his thoughts, which seem rather passive; they allow themselves to be connected and separated, to be formed and then dismissed. This life of thought must develop in the elemental world a step further. There a person is not in a position to deal with thoughts that are passive. If someone really succeeds in entering that world with his clairvoyant soul, it seems as though his thoughts were not things over which he has any command: they are living beings. Only imagine how it is when you cannot form and connect and separate your thoughts but, instead, each one of them in your consciousness begins to have a life of its own, a life as an entity in itself. You thrust your consciousness into a place, it seems, where you don't find thoughts that are like those in the physical world but where they are living beings. I can only use a grotesque picture which will help us somehow to realize how different our thinking must become from what it is here. Imagine sticking your head into an anthill, while your thinking comes to a stop — you would have ants in your head instead of thoughts! It is just like that, when your soul dips down into the elemental world; your thoughts become so alive that they themselves join each other, separate from each other and lead a life of their own. We truly need a stronger power of soul to confront these living thought-beings with our consciousness than we do with the passive thoughts of the physical world, which allow themselves to be formed at will, to be connected and separated not only sensibly but often even quite foolishly. They are patient things, these thoughts of our ordinary world; they let the human soul do anything it likes with them. But it is quite different when we thrust our soul into the elemental world, where our thoughts will lead an independent life. A human being must hold his own with his soul life and assert his will in confronting these active, lively, no longer passive thoughts. In the physical world our thinking can be completely stupid and this does not harm us at all. But if we do foolish things with our thinking in the elemental world, it may well happen that our stupid thoughts, creeping around there as independent beings, can hurt us, can even cause real pain.
        Kim
        --- Den lør 27/2/10 skrev Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>:

        Fra: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Emne: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - Comprehension or Sensitivity S
        Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Dato: lørdag 27. februar 2010 22.00

         
        With PoF thinking it's always possible to understand the abstract/normal thinking, but the abstract thinking have difficulties understanding the PoF thinking.

        PoF is a way to educate the Consciousness soul which is a prerequisite for the union with Manas.

        From http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ WrkAng_index. html :
        ANTHROPOSOPHICAL understanding of the spirit must not be a merely theoretical view of the world, but a leaven, an actual power in life. Only when we manage to investigate this view of the world so fundamentally that it really comes alive in us does it properly fulfill its mission.
        Kim

        --- Den lør 27/2/10 skrev fs13997 <fs13997@yahoo. com>:

        Fra: fs13997 <fs13997@yahoo. com>
        Emne: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - Comprehension or Sensitivity S
        Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Dato: lørdag 27. februar 2010 09.19

         


        --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:
        >
        > As Fred said, Abstract thinking = Normal thinking, and some are more disciplined than others.

        Fred:
        Right.

        >
        > PoF thinking is understanding whatever subject you go into, the heart sorrow of a person or the flow in a star, the formulas of relativity, the functioning of the Ahriman deception, or the being of Michael. Goethe did understand the theory of colors no less deep than Newton.

        Fred:
        The kind of thinking that is proposed in PoF is the result of the exceptional act of observing thinking. Until thinking is dependent from the brain, it is reflected thinking. Through the observation of a thought the goal is the free thinking from the brain and to connect it to its source, which is not thinking anymore. When thinking is freed it becomes one with feeling and will and it is connected with the central etheric current that is eastern tradition is called kundalini. Thus, this is an exceptional experience. Living thinking is different from a kind of thinking that is rich in content and imagery. It is outside ordinary consciousness and it is beyond dualism. Because the I does not receive its support from the brain and the senses, it is not constrained by a dualistic vision of reality and therefore it does not experience anything outside itself, which otherwise would constitute a non-I, and therefore, a dualism.

        >
        > The geniuses within various fields, like Einstein and Niels Bohr, didn't think abstract, for them it was reality.

        Fred:
        They were thinking in images, which are not as abstract as thinking in words. The moment of intuition of a physical law for a moment touches beyond the mere sphere of the reflection.

        >
        > Normal (abstract) thinking gives a superficial knowledge without real understanding, even though people think they do, especially the spiritual world is kept abstract where the goal is to understand it in relation to the physical every day world as practical understanding, fe stays beings like Michael aloof and abstract. And that goes both if you chose the religious or esoteric path, it should be practical understanding. If you read the writings of various saints it's very concrete, no abstract misty thoughts here, maybe only about the one and only creative God, but I am not sure abstract is the right word here.

        Fred:
        Yes, and the books should be read as imaginatively as possible.

        >
        > Abstract thinking is really the best way not to understand our world. The more abstract you take take Haiti the less you really understand what happens.

        Fred:
        Agree.

        >
        > Kim
        >
        >
        > --- Den lør 27/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@.. .>:
        >
        > I agree but one does need to have the ability to think in this manner I have found. I don't think this way and its a very big issue for me when I need to understand people who work in a mathematical and scientific field in their respective higher fields....even on this list wtih a few people a few years back i was consistantly saying 'that is too abstract for me' and i had to reach in a new way that is really different than the way i reach....it' s kinda like abstract reaches out and maybe etheric thinking reaches in but up as well and just about avoids abstractness in a way....d
        >
        >
        > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Fri, 2/26/10, Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        > Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel - Comprehension or Sensitivity S
        > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 10:43 AM
        >
        >
        > I think PoF is one big fight against abstract thinking, with Goethe as
        > an example of one who goes into the thing in contrast to Newton who
        > looks with abstract distance on things. Abstract thinking is Ahrimanic
        > thinking, in family with statistics, working against compassion.
        > Kim
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold
        > <dottie_z@> wrote:
        > >
        > > But he also says we have to be able to think abstractly as well:) he's
        > a funny cat that Steiner ey? d
        > >
        > >
        > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
        > out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@ wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@
        > >
        > Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The 5th Gospel -
        > Comprehension or Sensitivity S
        > > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 11:45 PM
        > >
        > > Why is it out of discussion? I thought another name for PoF is
        > Goethean Thinking, so it existed before PoF. Besides that, I think the
        > Idea have been mentioned before, fe by Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and
        > Aquinas, even few could use it, it was still a goal, as also Love is.
        > >
        > > The primary power of Ahriman is Dualism, and it's absolute opposite is
        > Monism, and it's not a doctrine it's a lifestyle, and if you use some
        > PoF thinking you will reach the
        > same conclusion.
        > > Â
        > > Another thing is that the hebrew people where educated by God through
        > many generations to make ready for the Christ incarnation, it should
        > give Christ the best conditions to overcome both the Luciferic and
        > Ahrimanian temptation, which included the spiritual and cultural
        > context.
        > >
        > > By the way, Steiner talks against abstract thinking and for concrete
        > thinking. Abstract thinking is an Ahrimanian lure.
        > >
        > > Kim
        > >
        > >
        > > --- Den fre 26/2/10 skrev fs13997 fs13997@:
        > >
        > > That "the thinking" is alike PoF is out of discussion. PoF sets the
        > theoretical basis for the exercises of the concentration and pure
        > perceiving. There is no prior introduction of those exercises before
        > PoF. It was not possible because human consciousness was not yet ready.
        > All that could be done was to avoid thought, not to possess
        > it.
        > >
        > >
        > > You need more than knowledge or a worldview to win Ahriman. Any
        > doctrine, including anthroposophy becomes a deadweight if it is not
        > enlivened through the experience of etheric thinking. That experience
        > defeats lucifer. But that experience corresponds to the death of the
        > ego, and death defeats Ahriman because he fears death.
        > >
        > > In addition, until thinking remains a reflection of its etheric life
        > there can be no real fraternity in the world. Until we think using an
        > abstract thinking the world will be divided.
        > >
        > > Where is there a teaching about the need to overcome ordinary
        > thinking?
        > >
        > > Fred
        > >
        > > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, Kim Graae Munch
        > kimgm@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > There are more in the Hebrew Monotheism than religion, the
        > knowledge, the worldview, and the thinking (which is PoF alike)
        > and
        > gives the best antidote to Ahriman and can be used to unite the world.
        > > >
        > > > An interesting view are that the Hebrew should travel over the whole
        > world to spread the message of Christ. They didn't take his message to
        > them, but the inertia was so strong that they were still spread out all
        > over the world, just without spreading the world - tragic.
        > > >
        > > > Steiner mentioned that most of mankind was at a development state as
        > Europe around 300-400 after Christ, so to write religion fully of is a
        > little premature.
        > > >
        > > > When one develops one casts old customs and religions off and takes
        > new on, until you lastly leaves earthly esoteric organisations behind,
        > as Anthroposophy and Theosophy, with the higher initition. But the
        > gained knowledge and experience will of course be part of you.
        > > >
        > > > Kim
        > > >
        > > > --- Den fre 26/2/10 skrev fs13997
        > fs13997@ >:
        > > >
        > > > Fra: fs13997 fs13997@ >
        > > However, with the end of the kali yuga ends also the need for
        > religions. It does not mean that they go overnight. It means that
        > Steiner has made public the third revelation, the revelation of the Holy
        > Spirit, and although religions may be around for a long time, their
        > mission of keeping the memory of the Divine has ended.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > After Steiner even if every religious book and all
        > religions would
        > disappear but we still had PoF with an understanding of the
        > concentration it would not matter (except for the cultural damage).
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > The new times call for a conscious personal perception of the
        > spiritual, initially in the form of perception of thinking as a
        > spiritual activity. Instead, what is happening is that people are simply
        > abandoning religions and substituting them with nothing, just
        > materialism. Often, this is not even the product of a conscious
        > determination. There is simply nothing in their life that requires to
        > think about it, and they are too busy with other things. Of course
        > education plays a big role especially in colleges where almost
        > universally students are indoctrinated into relativism. Relativism and
        > the related relativistic culture is the real problem out there. In a
        > lecture in 1919 Steiner said that unless the way of teaching
        > in
        > universities had changed Europe would have been devastated in thirty
        > years.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > And, of course, the second conflict appened because the real causes
        > of the first were not removed after the end of the first conflict. And
        > the second conflict was pretty much a conflict between lucifer and
        > ahriman, but the latter is stronger, so he prevailed.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Fred
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, Kim Graae Munch
        > <kimgm@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > > He was right in the way that it should not be known at that time,
        > and I think that he didn't know and should not know, but the resistance
        > knew and thats the reason for Holocaust.
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > > Steiner wrote about their role:
        > > >
        > >
        > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
        > > >
        > > > > It is extremely important that this should be borne in
        > > >
        > > > > mind, and one who examines the continuation of the old Hebrew
        > impulse
        > > >
        > > > > can still see at the present day Monotheism ruling in its greatest
        > > >
        > > > > extreme among the learned Rabbis, in their learned Rabbinism. It
        > is
        > > >
        > > > > the task of this particular people to give as an impulse that the
        > > >
        > > > > world-principle can only be unity. Therefore we might say: All the
        > > >
        > > > > other nations, peoples, and Spirits of the Age had an analytic
        > task,
        > > >
        > > > > the task of representing the world-principle as being composed of
        > > >
        > > > > different Beings; for example, the most extreme abstraction of the
        > > >
        > > > > Monon in India was soon
        > divided into a trinity, as the one god of
        > > >
        > > > > Christianity is divided into Three Persons. All the other peoples
        > > >
        > > > > have the task of analyzing the foundations of the world and thus
        > to
        > > >
        > > > > fill their several parts with rich contents, to fill themselves
        > with
        > > >
        > > > > rich material for conceptions that may lovingly comprehend the
        > > >
        > > > > phenomena. The Semitic people has the task of ignoring all
        > plurality
        > > >
        > > > > and synthetically devoting itself to the unity; hence, for
        > example,
        > > >
        > > > > through this very impulse, the power of speculation, the power of
        > > >
        > > > > synthetic thought is the greatest imaginable in the Kabbalistic
        > > >
        > > > > studies.
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > > All that could possibly ever
        > be spun out of the unity by
        > > >
        > > > > the synthetic, inclusive activity of the
        > ÃÆ'¢â‚¬ËÅ"ÃÆ'‚ IÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
        > ÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢,
        > > >
        > > > > has been spun out by the Semitic Spirit in the course of thousands
        > of
        > > >
        > > > > years. That is the great polarity between Pluralism and Monism,
        > and
        > > >
        > > > > that is the significance of the Semitic impulse in the world.
        > Monism
        > > >
        > > > > is not possible without Pluralism, and the latter is not possible
        > > >
        > > > > without the former. Therefore we must recognize the necessity for
        > > >
        > > > > both.
        > > >
        > > > > Kim
        > > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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