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The Real, True *I* or Ego

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  • jmn36210
    Juan wrote [message# 43258]: Karma and reincarnation was replaced by the intimate personal relationship with the person of Christ as the Life the Path and the
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 28, 2010


      Juan wrote [message# 43258]:

      "Karma and reincarnation was replaced by the intimate personal relationship
      with the person of Christ as the Life the Path and the Truth, the resurrection
      and the life, the bread of life, etc.

      <snip>

      This is not a matter of teachings, but of a personal, intimate, direct,
      living relationship with Christ.


      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




      Rudolf Steiner [GA 193 - February 11, 1919]:

      "Here, for anyone who seeks deeper understanding, is a fact to be kept in mind —
      a fact which brings every kind of human fellowship into relation with the central
      event of earth-evolution — the Mystery of Golgotha. For since the Mystery of Golgotha
      everything concerned with human fellowship belongs in a sense to the Christ Impulse.
      That is the essential thing — the Christ Impulse belongs not to single men but to the
      fellowship of men. In truth, according to the mind of Christ Himself,
      it is a great mistake to suppose that the solitary individual can establish
      a direct relation with Christ."






      Rudolf Steiner [GA 141 - January 7, 1913]:


      "We know that the human being on Earth consists of physical body, etheric body, astral
      body and the `I' or Ego, together with everything that belongs to these members."

      "But this `I', the real, true `I', must not be confused with the `I' which the
      human being on Earth recognises as his own."

      "Thus the immortality of the `I' of which human consciousness is first aware is refuted
      by every sleep at night, for then this `I' is simply extinguished. The real, true `I'
      lies much deeper, much, much deeper!"

      "Whereas during this physical life he experiences his `I' as pictured during the waking
      state, in the period between death and the new birth he experiences that higher `I' of
      which we can have a dim inkling when we contemplate how a human being learns to walk,
      to speak and to think. While a man is on Earth he is unaware of this `I'; it does not
      penetrate into his consciousness."

      "The forces of which we can have a faint inkling only, the forces which, working from
      within, enable the human being to walk, which launch the sounds of speech, which make
      him into a thinker and mould the brain into becoming the organ of thinking — these are
      the forces of supreme importance during man's existence between death and the new birth.
      It is then that his true `I' comes to life."





      Jean-Marc
    • Juan Revilla
      ... I found one of the lectures of this cycle online. Here is the relevant quote (Zürich, October 16th, 1918, GA 182): [BEGIN QUOTE] We find the Christ only
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 1, 2010
        ... such as "How Do I find The Christ" (1917-18), where he tells how we find our way to Christ through the innermost recesses of the soul, after going through our personal feelings of insignificance and powerlessness, our personal inner deaths.

        I found one of the lectures of this cycle online. Here is the relevant quote (Zürich, October 16th, 1918, GA 182):

        [BEGIN QUOTE]

        We find the Christ only when we have the following experiences. Firstly, we must say to ourselves: ‘I will strive for self-knowledge as far as in me lies, as far as my whole human personality makes this possible.’ Now nobody who strives honestly for self-knowledge today can fail to come to the conclusion that he is incapable of laying hold of that for which he is striving; that his power of comprehension lags behind his striving. He feels the ineffectiveness of his efforts. This is a very real experience. A certain feeling of ineffectiveness is experienced by everyone who in the quest for self-knowledge takes honest counsel with himself. It is a wholesome feeling, for it is nothing else than awareness of the sickness in us, and when we have an illness without being aware of it, then we are all the more ill. In feeling at some point in our life the powerlessness to lift ourselves to the Divine, we become aware of that sickness of which I have spoken, the sickness that has been implanted into us. And in becoming aware of this sickness, we feel that as the body is today, our soul would be condemned to die with it.

        When this powerlessness is experienced with sufficient intensity, there comes the sudden reversal — the other experience which tells us that if we do not depend only upon what our bodily forces by themselves enable us to achieve, but devote ourselves to what the spirit gives — we can overcome this inner death of the soul. We find our soul again and unite ourselves with the spirit. We can experience the futility of existence on the one side and, on the other, the triumph of it within ourselves, when we have overcome the feeling of helplessness. We can he aware of the sickness, the powerlessness which has become allied with death in our soul, and then of the redemptive, healing force. And then we feel that we bear in our soul something that can at all times rise above death. It is in seeking for these two experiences that we find the Christ in our own soul.

        Humanity is approaching this experience. Angelus Silesius spoke of it in the significant words:

        ‘In vain the Cross on Golgotha
        Was raised — thou hast not any part
        In its deliverance unless
        It be raised up within thy heart.’ [ See note 15 ]

        It is raised up in man when he is conscious of the two poles: powerlessness through the body, resurrection through the spirit.

        This twofold experience leads to the understanding of the Mystery of Golgotha. It is a happening in regard to which the excuse of lacking faculties of supersensible perception is invalid. Such faculties are not essential. All that is essential is to be resolute in the practice of self-examination and to have the will to overcome the attitude of self-sufficiency that is so prevalent today, and which prevents man from realising that insistence upon placing reliance solely in his own faculties is a result of pride. A man whose pride renders him incapable of feeling that his own forces can but lead him to powerlessness, will be unable to have the experience either of death or of resurrection; nor will he ever know the reality contained in the thought of Angelus Silesius:

        ‘In vain the Cross on Golgotha
        Was raised — thou hast not any part
        In its deliverance unless
        It be raised up within thy heart.’

        But when we can experience powerlessness and recovery from it, the benediction of actual relationship with Christ Jesus is vouchsafed to us. For this experience is the recovery of what we experienced in the spiritual world hundreds of years before our birth. We must seek here, on the physical plane, for its mirror-image in the soul. Seek within yourselves and you will discover the powerlessness! Seek, and you will find, after the experience of powerlessness, the redemption from it, the resurrection of the soul to the spirit.

        But do not allow yourselves to be misled in these matters by what is put forward today as mysticism or actually preached as a tenet by certain denominations. When Harnack, for example, speaks of the Christ, what he says is not true, for the simple reason that it can equally well apply to God in the general sense. It can be said alike of the God of the Hebrews, of the God of the Mohammedans, of all the other Gods. You will hear many a one who claims to be awakened today, saying: I experience God within me ... but it is the Father God only that such people experience and that in a very weakened form, because they do not realise that they are sick and are speaking merely in accordance with tradition. Johannes Muller is an example of this. But none of these men have found Christ, for the Christ-experience does not consist of the unitary realisation of the Divine, but of the twofold experience of the death in the soul wrought by the body and the resurrection of the soul wrought by the spirit. A man who can say that he feels not only the Divine within him — as mystical theosophists eloquently assert — but can speak of the two experiences — of powerlessness and the resurrection from it — such a man is speaking of the true Christ-experience. And after all, he has found his way to the Mystery of Golgotha along a supersensible path, he has found within himself the strength whereby certain supersensible faculties are quickened to life and lead him to the Mystery of Golgotha.

        Verily there is no need today to despair of finding the Christ in immediate experience, for He has been found in very truth when a man has rediscovered his own true being — but always after the realisation of powerlessness. The feeling of futility that comes upon us when, without self-sufficiency, we contemplate our own faculties, must be the preliminary to the experience of the Christ Impulse. When mystics say: I have found in my ego the higher Ego, the Divine Ego ... they believe that this is Christianity. It is by no means so! Christianity must be based on the principle:

        ‘In vain the Cross on Golgotha
        Was raised — thou hast not any part
        In its deliverance unless
        It be raised up within thy heart.’

        [END QUOTE]

        Juan
      • Juan Revilla
        [NOTE: I ve had trouble posting since yesterday and apologize if my posts turn out to come repeated.] ... My reply: Steiner is making here an important point,
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 1, 2010
          [NOTE: I've had trouble posting since yesterday and apologize if my posts turn out to come repeated.]

          > Juan wrote:
          > "Karma and reincarnation was replaced by the intimate personal
          relationship with the person of Christ as the Life the Path and the Truth, the
          > resurrection and the life, the bread of life, etc.

          Jean-Marc quotes Steiner:

          > That is the essential thing — the Christ Impulse belongs not to
          single men but to the
          > fellowship of men. In truth, according to the mind of Christ
          Himself, it is a great mistake
          > to suppose that the solitary individual can establish a direct
          relation with Christ."

          My reply:

          Steiner is making here an important point, and qualifies the assertion saying "SOLITARY". He cannot wipe out centuries of Christian mysticism and Christian Initiation that he himself describes in many other places, and which are based on this personal relationship, neither his own ideas in cycles such as "How Do I find The Christ" (1917-18), where he tells how we find our way to Christ through the innermost recesses of the soul, after going through our personal feelings of insignificance and powerlessness, our personal inner deaths. One can check also the lectures on the Gospel of John, which centers everything on this person-to-person relationship.

          What does Steiner mean then by "solitary"?

          I think he means that the individual who is in a relationship with Christ is no longer "solitary" because this "solitariness" is a form of selfishness which Christ eliminates. Likewise, an individual who feels solitary cannot find the Christ, there must first be a surrender of this feeling, and this is a miracle of light that happens in the most intimate, most secret, most sacred chamber of the human soul. This is described wonderfully by Mabel Collins in "Light on The Path".

          I fail to see the relevance of the second quote from Steiner about the "true I".

          Juan
        • Juan Revilla
          ... extracting from this quote I would like to summarize and paraphrase Steiner it as follows: To find or experience Christ one does not need to be Christian,
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 2, 2010
            >... the relevant quote (Zürich, October 16th, 1918, GA 182):...

            extracting from this quote I would like to summarize and paraphrase Steiner it as follows:

            To find or experience Christ one does not need to be Christian, or believe in anything in particular, one does not need to develop organs of spiritual perception, one does not need to think in terms of karma and reincarnation... what is needed is a honest look into our own powerlessness, ineffectiveness, incompleteness, and sickness; a look into our darkest moments, our feelings of hopeslessness and death coming from our physical body and our personality.

            Then Steiner says: "when this has been done with sufficient intensity... there comes the sudden reversal, the other experience..."

            Before this point, the path to Christ is that of the personality and of death, an intense personal experience of desolation and hopelessness, our own futility and death. And then, having touched bottom amidst this darkness, something happens, something "comes", we see the light thanks to which we can raise from this death, a light without which we would not be able to live. This light within ourselves is the realization of the Spirit in us, the healing forces and everlasting strength that we receive as gift.

            This gift of light is the incorruptible "I" thanks to which we say "This light is myself in my own reality", or "In spite of all this darkness I am".

            We still experience the futility of our existence, we still live in the darkness, we still have our karma, but there is also something in us that rises over it so we never, ever again feel helpless or "solitary". It is at this point that we have found Christ, or in Steiner's own words:

            "the benediction of actual relationship with Christ Jesus is vouchsafed to us" (ref. above)

            -----------------

            This is what Steiner says here and in other places as well. This is unadulterated Christianity, which I learned to understand to great extent thanks to him.

            My comment here is: at this point "karma" dissolves away as a concept and is replaced by my relationship to "Life". This relationship to Life contains karma in a spiritualized, transformed way, it is a "different paradigm", an experience of the consciousness soul, a different way of relating to karms out of of something so powerfull spiritually that the concept of karma becomes irrelevant and unecessary, it has been left behind.

            Juan
          • Kim Graae Munch
            Beautiful collection, another word for this state is Depression , where everything has been done on this Earth, and nothing earthly is worth doing any longer.
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 2, 2010
              Beautiful collection, another word for this state is "Depression", where everything has been done on this Earth, and nothing earthly is worth doing any longer.
              Kim

              --- Den tirs 2/3/10 skrev Juan Revilla <hylonome@...>:

              Fra: Juan Revilla <hylonome@...>
              Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego
              Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Dato: tirsdag 2. marts 2010 19.23

               


              >... the relevant quote (Zürich, October 16th, 1918, GA 182):...

              extracting from this quote I would like to summarize and paraphrase Steiner it as follows:

              To find or experience Christ one does not need to be Christian, or believe in anything in particular, one does not need to develop organs of spiritual perception, one does not need to think in terms of karma and reincarnation. .. what is needed is a honest look into our own powerlessness, ineffectiveness, incompleteness, and sickness; a look into our darkest moments, our feelings of hopeslessness and death coming from our physical body and our personality.

              Then Steiner says: "when this has been done with sufficient intensity... there comes the sudden reversal, the other experience.. ."

              Before this point, the path to Christ is that of the personality and of death, an intense personal experience of desolation and hopelessness, our own futility and death. And then, having touched bottom amidst this darkness, something happens, something "comes", we see the light thanks to which we can raise from this death, a light without which we would not be able to live. This light within ourselves is the realization of the Spirit in us, the healing forces and everlasting strength that we receive as gift.

              This gift of light is the incorruptible "I" thanks to which we say "This light is myself in my own reality", or "In spite of all this darkness I am".

              We still experience the futility of our existence, we still live in the darkness, we still have our karma, but there is also something in us that rises over it so we never, ever again feel helpless or "solitary". It is at this point that we have found Christ, or in Steiner's own words:

              "the benediction of actual relationship with Christ Jesus is vouchsafed to us" (ref. above)

              ------------ -----

              This is what Steiner says here and in other places as well. This is unadulterated Christianity, which I learned to understand to great extent thanks to him.

              My comment here is: at this point "karma" dissolves away as a concept and is replaced by my relationship to "Life". This relationship to Life contains karma in a spiritualized, transformed way, it is a "different paradigm", an experience of the consciousness soul, a different way of relating to karms out of of something so powerfull spiritually that the concept of karma becomes irrelevant and unecessary, it has been left behind.

              Juan


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            • Juan Revilla
              ... Good and simple answer. In another post you expressed that karma is not so interesting to you, while reincarnation is. This is interesting because it is
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 3, 2010
                K1: The knowledge about reincarnation and karma is necessary to see the spiritual world as logic and just.
                J1: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul. What happens when we raise our understanding of karma and reincarnation to the consciousness soul?

                K2: Knowledge don't change the soul, but it can change the way you live, and that can change your soul (all three:).

                Good and simple answer.

                In another post you expressed that karma is not so interesting to you, while reincarnation is. This is interesting because it is like "separating" the two in terms of what they mean to us or of how one experiences them in one's soul life, or in other words, it implies (please correct me if I am wrong) that it is possible to experience one without the other.

                Whether this is what you had in mind or not when you wrote it, it is an important point that goes directly to what I'm saying: that when one comes to the experience of karma --as opposed to repeating some dogma-- one establishes a relationship with it that is a result of this transformation or "change" in the consciousness soul you mention above. This "relationship" is then no longer a concept but "life", and the concept begins to be left behind because there is something more powerful and more spiritual -- and far more important: "Life". Instead of relating to "karma" as a concept, we are now relating to Life, and this includes karma but a different, more spiritualized way.

                Juan
              • Kim
                Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you understand that
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 3, 2010
                  Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part
                  of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you
                  understand that "action has consequences", and of these two I think that
                  reincarnation has the most profound influence of our thinking, where
                  karma really only affirms our intuition.
                  For the everyday life the knowledge about karma makes life just, as you
                  know that the seemingly unjust incidences of fate are karmic responses
                  of your own actions and it makes it easier to accept them and easier to
                  handle them, and it makes it possible to handle karmic causes, from the
                  current life, consciously within this life.
                  If you lie without consciously being aware of it, it becomes part of
                  your astral body as karma, but if you are aware it becomes part of your
                  current karma and you can handle the karma in the current life, and that
                  is the reason, at end of the day, to think about the happenings of the
                  day.
                  Kim

                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Juan Revilla
                  <hylonome@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > >K1: The knowledge about reincarnation and karma is necessary to see
                  the spiritual world as logic and just.
                  > >J1: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul.
                  What happens when we raise our understanding of karma and reincarnation
                  to the consciousness soul?
                  > >
                  > >K2: Knowledge don't change the soul, but it can change the way you
                  live, and that can change your soul (all three:).
                  >
                  > Good and simple answer.
                  >
                  > In another post you expressed that karma is not so interesting to you,
                  while reincarnation is. This is interesting because it is like
                  "separating" the two in terms of what they mean to us or of how one
                  experiences them in one's soul life, or in other words, it implies
                  (please correct me if I am wrong) that it is possible to experience one
                  without the other.
                  >
                  > Whether this is what you had in mind or not when you wrote it, it is
                  an important point that goes directly to what I'm saying: that when one
                  comes to the experience of karma --as opposed to repeating some dogma--
                  one establishes a relationship with it that is a result of this
                  transformation or "change" in the consciousness soul you mention above.
                  This "relationship" is then no longer a concept but "life", and the
                  concept begins to be left behind because there is something more
                  powerful and more spiritual -- and far more important: "Life". Instead
                  of relating to "karma" as a concept, we are now relating to Life, and
                  this includes karma but a different, more spiritualized way.
                  >
                  > Juan
                  >
                • Juan Revilla
                  ... J: I agree with you about reincarnation. Karma as a principle or a law is in most cases only rationalization, i.e., we can rationalize the same thing
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 3, 2010
                    K:Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you understand that "action has consequences", and of these two I think that reincarnation has the most profound influence of our thinking, where karma really only affirms our intuition.

                    J: I agree with you about reincarnation. Karma as a principle or a "law" is in most cases only rationalization, i.e., we can rationalize the same thing without using the concept of karma (more below). With reincarnation this cannot be done.


                    K:For the everyday life the knowledge about karma makes life just, as you know that the seemingly unjust incidences of fate are karmic responses of your own actions and it makes it easier to accept them and easier to handle them, and it makes it possible to handle karmic causes, from the current life, consciously within this life.

                    J: The traditional Christian alternative is "surrendering to the wisdom of the higher powers", but this seems to require from men today stronger soul forces because it is not aimed at the rational soul.


                    K: If you lie without consciously being aware of it, it becomes part of your astral body as karma, but if you are aware it becomes part of your current karma and you can handle the karma in the current life, and that is the reason, at end of the day, to think about the happenings of the day. -- Kim

                    The same principle can be explained by simple psychology if you change "astral body" by "unconscious", and "current karma" by "conscious awareness of how you are the creator of your life". No need for karma.

                    At this point I don't see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that "a heightened consciousness" is what is indispensable, and this is not achieved by rationalization based on abstract principles or "laws" but by a re-education and intensification or liberation of thinking (I think Federico was saying something very similar).

                    Juan
                  • Kim Graae Munch
                    Without karma you have an OT religion with a Father god which is telling you what is good and bad and which punishes you when you are bad. With karma you are
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 3, 2010
                      Message
                      Without karma you have an OT religion with a Father god which is telling you what is good and bad and which punishes you when you are bad. With karma you are creating your own future based on your actions and with a loving god who bears your burden with you, and who will help you when you are ready to be helped.
                      Kim
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Juan Revilla
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 4:58 PM
                      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego

                       

                      K:Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you understand that "action has consequences", and of these two I think that reincarnation has the most profound influence of our thinking, where karma really only affirms our intuition.

                      J: I agree with you about reincarnation. Karma as a principle or a "law" is in most cases only rationalization, i.e., we can rationalize the same thing without using the concept of karma (more below). With reincarnation this cannot be done.


                      K:For the everyday life the knowledge about karma makes life just, as you know that the seemingly unjust incidences of fate are karmic responses of your own actions and it makes it easier to accept them and easier to handle them, and it makes it possible to handle karmic causes, from the current life, consciously within this life.

                      J: The traditional Christian alternative is "surrendering to the wisdom of the higher powers", but this seems to require from men today stronger soul forces because it is not aimed at the rational soul.


                      K: If you lie without consciously being aware of it, it becomes part of your astral body as karma, but if you are aware it becomes part of your current karma and you can handle the karma in the current life, and that is the reason, at end of the day, to think about the happenings of the day. -- Kim

                      The same principle can be explained by simple psychology if you change "astral body" by "unconscious", and "current karma" by "conscious awareness of how you are the creator of your life". No need for karma.

                      At this point I don't see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that "a heightened consciousness" is what is indispensable, and this is not achieved by rationalization based on abstract principles or "laws" but by a re-education and intensification or liberation of thinking (I think Federico was saying something very similar).

                      Juan

                    • dottie zold
                      Juan: At this point I don t see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that a heightened
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 3, 2010
                        Juan:
                        "At this point I don't see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that "a heightened consciousness" is what is indispensable, and this is not achieved by rationalization based on abstract principles or "laws" but by a re-education and intensification or liberation of thinking (I think
                        Federico was saying something very similar)."
                         
                        Dottie: Liberation or no liberation there is karma it is part of the cosmic worlds lawfulness....Do ....okay so someone who might know their past lives or one or two can begin to see the threads of the past and what is being or trying to be changed today. I can tell you I have seen exactly the karma of the past meeting me today, in the last two years and I mean exact people and although not the same circumstances I can see that it was I who had to change in what was being presented in this lifetime. And I could see where I was being gifted by how it was that I responded to certain things that caused Love to be in the room regardless of what it looked like to anyone else.
                         
                        Karma is, it is what we do in the moment that speaks to karma and how it is played out. d
                         
                         

                         
                        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                        --- On Wed, 3/3/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

                        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
                        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego
                        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 9:14 AM



                        Without karma you have an OT religion with a Father god which is telling you what is good and bad and which punishes you when you are bad. With karma you are creating your own future based on your actions and with a loving god who bears your burden with you, and who will help you when you are ready to be helped.
                        Kim
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Juan Revilla
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 4:58 PM
                        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego

                         
                        K:Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you understand that "action has consequences", and of these two I think that reincarnation has the most profound influence of our thinking, where karma really only affirms our intuition.

                        J: I agree with you about reincarnation. Karma as a principle or a "law" is in most cases only rationalization, i.e., we can rationalize the same thing without using the concept of karma (more below). With reincarnation this cannot be done.


                        K:For the everyday life the knowledge about karma makes life just, as you know that the seemingly unjust incidences of fate are karmic responses of your own actions and it makes it easier to accept them and easier to handle them, and it makes it possible to handle karmic causes, from the current life, consciously within this life.

                        J: The traditional Christian alternative is "surrendering to the wisdom of the higher powers", but this seems to require from men today stronger soul forces because it is not aimed at the rational soul.


                        K: If you lie without consciously being aware of it, it becomes part of your astral body as karma, but if you are aware it becomes part of your current karma and you can handle the karma in the current life, and that is the reason, at end of the day, to think about the happenings of the day. -- Kim

                        The same principle can be explained by simple psychology if you change "astral body" by "unconscious", and "current karma" by "conscious awareness of how you are the creator of your life". No need for karma.

                        At this point I don't see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that "a heightened consciousness" is what is indispensable, and this is not achieved by rationalization based on abstract principles or "laws" but by a re-education and intensification or liberation of thinking (I think Federico was saying something very similar).

                        Juan



                      • Juan Revilla
                        ... I don t question any of this, Dottie. Of course Karma is, and it is an essential, indispensable part of Spiritual Science. But looking at karma from the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 4, 2010
                          Dottie: Liberation or no liberation there is karma it is part of the cosmic worlds lawfulness....Do ....okay so someone who might know their past lives or one or two can begin to see the threads of the past and what is being or trying to be changed today. I can tell you I have seen exactly the karma of the past meeting me today, in the last two years and I mean exact people and although not the same circumstances I can see that it was I who had to change in what was being presented in this lifetime. And I could see where I was being gifted by how it was that I responded to certain things that caused Love to be in the room regardless of what it looked like to anyone else.
                           Karma is, it is what we do in the moment that speaks to karma and how it is played out. d

                          I don't question any of this, Dottie. Of course Karma is, and it is an essential, indispensable part of Spiritual Science. But looking at karma from the point of view of Spiritual Science is completely dispensable for the spiritual life and for the future of Mankind for a very simple reason: there are other ways of looking at the same thing, different thoughts or images that arise from the same reality, and the difference between these thoughts or images or forms is important.

                          What I mean by this is that the reality or principle or law called "karma" can be experienced and considered differently in the age of the consciousness soul, without the need of that concept at all. Remember the distinction Steiner makes between moral teaching (buddhism) and moral impulse (christianity), remember also that the concept of karma is a legacy from the spiritual past, and originally in buddhism it is impersonal and abstract, while in Christianity everything is personal: we relate to "being" directly, not to concepts.

                          So consider for example (and hypothetically) the word "karma" in comparison to the word "responsability" used instead. Let's assume that the reality, the experience, is the same seen from outside, but one word refers to a concept, the other to a moral impulse. The same with "pay or balance my debts" against "fulfill my duty". Even though they may refer to the same thing, the way of experiencing is very different. One involves the *I* directly and is of the consciousness soul, the other doesn't, it is indirect and belongs to the rational soul.

                          It is the difference between talking about something from an abstract or "detached" point of view (for example Spiritual Science) and talking about it directly from the *I*, from inside the experience with a strong presence of mind or thinking. At the level of the experience the reference to the concept "karma" is obsolete and represents a hindrance, it is unnecessary.

                          Facing Christ as our "Lord of Karma" is a direct, face-to-face personal encounter based on moral awareness and recognition of the other: "I see", "I know", "I understand", "I hear you", "I acknoweldge", "I accept", "I obey", "I do". It is a relationship between two beings. When the *I* is involved everything is a mutual relationship and a dialogue in which the concept "karma" is irrelevant and instead there is responsibility and action, doing: --"I see what I have done, I understand, I accept, I obey, I do".

                          For the sake of analogy, imagine Paul on the road to Damascus: had he been a spiritual scientists or researcher, he would have said "what are you?" or "who are you?", instead he said "what do you want me to do?" -- and he did it. This (I think) is beatifully described by the image of entering willingly and joyously into the flame.

                          Karma is the language of concepts and is not "christic", it keeps you going round and round about Life. Duty, responsibility, acceptance, etc. is the language of action and obedience and the path of Christ.

                          Juan
                        • Juan Revilla
                          Found something interesting in this respect: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FaithLoveHope/19111202p01.html [BEGIN QUOTE] But this form of karmic perception
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 4, 2010
                            Found something interesting in this respect:

                            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FaithLoveHope/19111202p01.html
                            [BEGIN QUOTE]
                            But this form of karmic perception will arise in such a way that here and there the figure of the etheric Christ will be directly visible to some individual — the actual Christ as He is living in the astral world — not in a physical body, but as for the newly awakened faculties of men He will manifest on earth; as counselor and protector of those who need advice, help or solace in the loneliness of their lives.
                            The time is coming when human beings, when they feel depressed and miserable, for one or other reason, will increasingly find the help of their fellows less important and valuable. This is because the force of individuality, of individual life, will count for more and more, while the power of one man to work helpfully upon the soul of another, which held good in the past, will tend constantly to diminish. In its stead the great Counselor will appear, in etheric form.
                            [END QUOTE]

                            and also this about karma and reincarnation:

                            [BEGIN QUOTE]
                            What then does Spiritual Science give us? By revealing the all-embracing laws of karma and reincarnation, it gives us something which permeates us with spiritual hope, just as does our awareness on the physical plane that the sun will rise to-morrow and that seeds will eventually grow into plants. It shows, if we understand karma, that our physical body, which will perish into dust when we have gone through the gate of death, can through the forces permeating us with hope be re-built for a new life. Spiritual Science fills men with the strongest forces of hope. Were this Spiritual Science, this new revelation for the present time, to be rejected, men naturally would return to earth in future all the same, for life on earth would not cease on account of people's ignorance of its laws. Human beings would incarnate again; but there would be something very strange about these incarnations. Men would gradually become a race with bodies wrinkled and shriveled all over, earthly bodies which would finally be so crippled that people would be entirely incapacitated. To put it briefly, in future incarnations a condition of dying away, of withering up, would assail mankind if their consciousness, and from there the hidden depths of their being right down into the physical body, were not given fresh life through the power of hope.
                            This power of hope arises through the certainty of knowledge gained from the laws of karma and reincarnation. Already there is a tendency in human beings to produce withering bodies, which in future would become increasingly rickety even in the very bones. Marrow will be brought to the bones, forces of life to the nerves, by this new revelation, whose value will not reside merely in theories but in its life-giving forces — above all in those of hope.
                            [END QUOTE]

                            Juan
                          • Juan Revilla
                            ... bah! bad memory... he first said who are you ? -- maybe bad example. J.
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 4, 2010
                              For the sake of analogy, imagine Paul on the road to Damascus: had he been a spiritual scientists or researcher, he would have said "what are you?" or "who are you?", instead he said "what do you want me to do?" -- and he did it.

                              bah! bad memory... he first said "who are you"? -- maybe bad example.

                              J.
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