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Massimo Scaligero in english

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  • Andre Gas
    Hello dear fellas I have started a translation to english of a book from the italian Massimo Scaligero: Guarire con il Pensiero (Healing with Thought). The
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 17, 2010
      Hello dear fellas

      I have started a translation to english of a book from the italian Massimo Scaligero: Guarire con il Pensiero (Healing with Thought). The only book in english from him is "The Light" which is only 1 of his 30 books, all on Anthroposophy. Even in Italy he hasn't gained much fame, but the ones who know his writings compare him at the level of Steiner, in a certain sense...an innovative, an evolver.
      http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?session=bb3cad8c94ed5ad0bd9042d39b913361&id=9780970109767

      First of all I'd like to ask you if you are aware of other works from him planned for translation; I have alredy posed the question to SteinerBooks, but haven't had any reply so far. To whom is one supposed to ask this questions?

      Secondly I'd like to paste a sample of my translation so far: the beginning of the book mentioned. Because I am not native english, I am here asking somebody patient to go throght the following lines and report anything that could have had better exposition.
      The original style is actually quite unusual even for an Italian, the sentences constructions are sometimes rather complex, and many terms are often obsolete.
      Beside the english translation I am noticing however I'd like to keep a more modern and fluent structure.
      Any feedback is appreciated.
      Enjoy!


      -------------------------------------------------------
      First Part: The Sick Thought

      Genesis of Evil
      Man is a sick on the way to healing. His disease is likewise on the soul and on the body. There is no psychical disease which don’t become bodily, there is no bodily disease which don’t become psychical.
      A wound of the body heals thanks to forces which have the power to operate on the body: a wound of the soul could heal with the forces of the soul, if these could operate in the soul with the same autonomy they operate to heal the body. The dialectic consciousness hinders this autonomy.
      One of the truths where we will get  to with the present study, is the following: the forces which heal the body are the same which can heal the soul, but they don’t hold  in the soul the same autonomy which they avail in the body, in the corporeality. This autonomy of the forces in the soul can however  realize  as a higher achievement  of the consciousness. The art of healing is, first of all, the art of healing the evil in the soul . Healed in the soul, the evil-disease is healed also in the body.
      Only a single evil exists, and its origin is always in the soul. The body heals in the same measure with which forces operate in it, whose  original power is not hindered by the consciousness. These forces are hampered on the soul by the regular  process of the consciousness. They are contradicted, or deviated. The contradiction, or deviation, generates the human evil: whose healing is therefore basically a problem of the consciousness. Really, it is a problem of the thought, because in the modern man, consciousness is essentially thinking consciousness, while the ordinary dialectic process springs, how we will see, from the opposition of the thought to its own original forces, namely, to the original forces of the soul. Thought not connected with its own spring  is the origin of evil.
      The reader who wants to realize about  the original evil-disease unity of soul and body, as something which concern modern man particularly, as such endowed with a principle of responsible self-consciousness of the soul-body relation in accord with an individual dialectic, will have to bear with us through a quest necessarily facing at the outset to a causal factor: the original relation between a spiritual and a bodily, as lost. This relation, which came about according to forces of spontaneity sensed by the intuitive mental of the ancient  man, has become unknowable to the dialectic consciousness  of the modern man.
      The thought of modern man thinks always with the personal authority of the truth: not wrongly, because, even manifesting individually, in truth it springs from an essence grounded  on itself as an universal. The contradictory situation of modern thought is its being without awareness of such universal and ascribing nevertheless, with authority, universal values. Its judgment has always the strength of authority, even when it errs. The erring one isn’t the universal of thought, but rather its lack of awareness of its own spring, namely the universal, independently from the organ media of manifestation . In reality, the essence of the thought is true, its dialectic form is continually the possibility of error.
      The thought projects the universal unconscious  onto the thing, as an “in-itself”, identifying it with an assumed inner structure of it. In the case of physical objectivity, its inner structure is its materiality, investigated, or rather perceived and thought independently of the act of perceiving and thinking it: so that the purpose of knowledge comes to be the ever meticulous penetration of Matter, or the rigorous mathematical-physical operation, whence anyway the Matter, as a thought “in-itself” stays inevitably outside. Hence Matter is thought without knowing it is thought as a metaphysical entity, through an essentially metaphysical activity: an attempt to define physically, through the universal of thought, something which physical aspect come to be excluded of essence, of the universal. The disease of man doesn’t have other origin. The mental which arranges knowledge, contradicting the supra-mental whence knowledge arises, generates the human evil, physical and psychical.
      The imagined noumenon, its being in itself, can be described with a thought which seems to follow it in this “in-itself”, but in truth, deceived to follow it, doesn’t leave at all from itself and includes within its own limit, something which it represents as laying outside of this limit. Anyhow, as laying outside, it is rather identified as universal – for example the light, the heat, the terrestrial magnetism, ect. – when this universal isn’t experienced for what it is, as an alive concept, but rather as a feeling, which fills the empty form of the concept. The feeling is unconscious. Therefore the scientific cosmos, which seems the world of absolute objectivity, is in truth the world of the unconscious subjectivity. In that cosmos there is no man, because there is no relation whence he really moves, there is no real objective, but only its sacred image : which content is inevitably a feeling, a belief.
      The object however can be non-physical: the noumenon then, identified with the same object, is the unknowable given as known, inasmuch as imaging or representing it is to presume its reality, likewise, for example, one talks about social relations, laws and rights, psyche, mind, etc. The unconscious feeling reifies the content, which appears universal, but it is subjective and in this sense erroneous, because the feeling doesn’t exit the limit imposed by the reflected thought: a sentient-instinctive content gets dressed  of thought, is risen as knowledge: it becomes ideology, dogma, myth.
      A similar situation is likewise recognizable in the ordinary process of Science. Normally the investigator doesn’t have the ability to penetrate the object concretely: a part of this is left outside of his knowing. He deals however with the object as if he had it entirely, building of it a fictitious totality with minimal possible identification: the quantitative one. Within this same identification he doesn’t grasp the inner act with which he takes part in it: his knowing stops short with the abstract identity with the sensible. Weight and size become the categories of the real.
      -------------------------------------------------------
    • Andre Gas
      I have now realized that in many cases the word thought can be replaced with the word thinking. ... First Part: The Sick Thought Genesis of Evil Man is a sick
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 17, 2010
        I have now realized that in many cases the word thought can be replaced with the word thinking.
        Here's a 2nd version:

        ------------------------------------------
        First Part: The Sick Thought

        Genesis of Evil
        Man is a sick on the way to healing. His disease is likewise on the soul and on the body. There is no psychical disease which don’t become bodily, there is no bodily disease which don’t become psychical.
        A wound of the body heals thanks to forces which have the power to operate on the body: a wound of the soul could heal with the forces of the soul, if these could operate in the soul with the same autonomy they operate to heal the body. The dialectic consciousness hinders this autonomy.
        One of the truths where we will get to with the present study, is the following: the forces which heal the body are the same which can heal the soul, but they don’t hold in the soul the same autonomy which they avail in the body, in the corporeality. This autonomy of the forces in the soul can however realize as a higher achievement of the consciousness. The art of healing is, first of all, the art of healing the evil in the soul. Healed in the soul, the evil-disease is healed also in the body.
        Only a single evil exists, and its origin is always in the soul. The body heals in the same measure with which forces operate in it, whose original power is not hindered by the consciousness. These forces are hampered on the soul by the regular process of the consciousness. They are contradicted, or deviated. The contradiction, or deviation, generates the human evil: whose healing is therefore basically a problem of the consciousness. Really, it is a problem of thinking, because in the modern man, consciousness is essentially thinking consciousness, while the ordinary dialectic process springs, how we will see, from the opposition of thinking to its own original forces, namely, to the original forces of the soul. Thought not connected with its own spring is the origin of evil.
        The reader who wants to realize about the original evil-disease unity of soul and body, as something which concern modern man particularly, as such endowed with a principle of responsible self-consciousness of the soul-body relation in accord with an individual dialectic, will have to bear with us through a quest necessarily facing at the outset to a causal factor: the original relation between a spiritual and a bodily, as lost. This relation, which came about according to forces of spontaneity sensed by the intuitive mental of the ancient man, has become unknowable to the dialectic consciousness of the modern man.
        The thinking of modern man thinks always with the personal authority of the truth: not wrongly, because, even manifesting individually, in truth it springs from an essence grounded on itself as an universal. The contradictory situation of modern thought is its being without awareness of such universal and ascribing nevertheless, with authority, universal values. Its judgment has always the strength of authority, even when it errs. The erring one isn’t the universal of thinking, but rather its lack of awareness of its own spring, namely the universal, independently from the organ media of manifestation. In reality, the essence of the thought is true, its dialectic form is continually the possibility of error.
        Thinking projects the universal unconscious onto the thing, as an “in-itself”, identifying it with an assumed inner structure of it. In the case of physical objectivity, its inner structure is its materiality, investigated, or rather perceived and thought independently of the act of perceiving and thinking it: so that the purpose of knowledge comes to be the ever meticulous penetration of Matter, or the rigorous mathematical-physical operation, whence anyway the Matter, as a thought “in-itself” stays inevitably outside. Hence Matter is thought without knowing it is thought as a metaphysical entity, through an essentially metaphysical activity: an attempt to define physically, through the universal of thinking, something which physical aspect come to be excluded of essence, of the universal. The disease of man doesn’t have other origin. The mental which arranges knowledge, contradicting the supra-mental whence knowledge arises, generates the human evil, physical and psychical.
        The imagined noumenon, its being in itself, can be described with a thought which seems to follow it in this “in-itself”, but in truth, deceived to follow it, doesn’t leave at all from itself and includes within its own limit, something which it represents as laying outside of this limit. Anyhow, as laying outside, it is rather identified as universal – for example the light, the heat, the terrestrial magnetism, ect. – when this universal isn’t experienced for what it is, as an alive concept, but rather as a feeling, which fills the empty form of the concept. The feeling is unconscious. Therefore the scientific cosmos, which seems the world of absolute objectivity, is in truth the world of the unconscious subjectivity. In that cosmos there is no man, because there is no relation whence he really moves, there is no real objective, but only its sacred image: which content is inevitably a feeling, a belief.
        The object however can be non-physical: the noumenon then, identified with the same object, is the unknowable given as known, inasmuch as imaging or representing it is to presume its reality, likewise, for example, one talks about social relations, laws and rights, psyche, mind, etc. The unconscious feeling reifies the content, which appears universal, but it is subjective and in this sense erroneous, because the feeling doesn’t exit the limit imposed by the reflected thinking: a sentient-instinctive content gets dressed of thought, is risen as knowledge: it becomes ideology, dogma, myth.
        A similar situation is likewise recognizable in the ordinary process of Science. Normally the investigator doesn’t have the ability to penetrate the object concretely: a part of this is left outside of his knowing. He deals however with the object as if he had it entirely, building of it a fictitious totality with minimal possible identification: the quantitative one. Within this same identification he doesn’t grasp the inner act with which he takes part in it: his knowing stops short with the abstract identity with the sensible. Weight and size become the categories of the real.
        Thus, on the sphere of moral sciences, per cause of an insufficient awareness of the “universal”, or of the inner content of the “concept”, the investigator assumes the object realistically, renouncing to know of drawing by himself such content, that is, the synthesis of the sensible notes of this: otherwise he would be conscious that his might knowing, for instance, that a single “lion” entity lives in all lions, and a single electric energy flows in all the electric wires on Earth, is due to the unity of concept and object, put into effect in him by an activity superior of thinking
        -------------------------------------------

      • dottie zold
        Hi Andre,   I want to say thanks for this wonderful undertaking. Immediately upon reading I had a thought of how I think there is a misunderstanding of what
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 17, 2010
          Hi Andre,
           
          I want to say thanks for this wonderful undertaking. Immediately upon reading I had a thought of how I think there is a misunderstanding of what Steiner brought and what other teachers bring in relations to level of an Initiate and his capacities.
           
          I have The Light and actually its really hard for me to read. I'd love to see that book retranslated as well. These wonderful human beings that are Initiates in the world in the sense that they have reached a level where they can bring common sense to mans journey out of their own experience is so touching. When one reads Massimo  they can have an understanding that he came to this understanding through study and devotion and suffering. Anyone who reads this can see the suffering that builds to these great understandings he shares below and which you have translated...thank you.
           
          I think it would be awesome if the students of his works can come together and work on them together and get them translated....i mean as a body of works being translated.....maybe there is some funding for that or maybe not but in any case if enough students create a forum and choose which ones they can translate that would be cool. I know for Steiner's work Frank and also Tarjei, of those that we interact with here, have translated works and were looking for others to help with that a few years back, Tarjei I remember was doing something like this when this group first formed as Anthroposophy Tomorrow.
           
          I hope somehow those on list here will forward your request and see if it cannot come about that a group of students get together and work as a body to translate so the english speaking world too will be able to listen in on Massimo's life study.
           
          All good things and thanks,
          Dottie

          "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



          --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:

          From: Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>
          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Massimo Scaligero in english
          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 10:23 AM



          Hello dear fellas

          I have started a translation to english of a book from the italian Massimo Scaligero: Guarire con il Pensiero (Healing with Thought). The only book in english from him is "The Light" which is only 1 of his 30 books, all on Anthroposophy. Even in Italy he hasn't gained much fame, but the ones who know his writings compare him at the level of Steiner, in a certain sense...an innovative, an evolver.
          http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?session=bb3cad8c94ed5ad0bd9042d39b913361&id=9780970109767

          First of all I'd like to ask you if you are aware of other works from him planned for translation; I have alredy posed the question to SteinerBooks, but haven't had any reply so far. To whom is one supposed to ask this questions?

          Secondly I'd like to paste a sample of my translation so far: the beginning of the book mentioned. Because I am not native english, I am here asking somebody patient to go throght the following lines and report anything that could have had better exposition.
          The original style is actually quite unusual even for an Italian, the sentences constructions are sometimes rather complex, and many terms are often obsolete.
          Beside the english translation I am noticing however I'd like to keep a more modern and fluent structure.
          Any feedback is appreciated.
          Enjoy!


          -------------------------------------------------------
          First Part: The Sick Thought

          Genesis of Evil
          Man is a sick on the way to healing. His disease is likewise on the soul and on the body. There is no psychical disease which don’t become bodily, there is no bodily disease which don’t become psychical.
          A wound of the body heals thanks to forces which have the power to operate on the body: a wound of the soul could heal with the forces of the soul, if these could operate in the soul with the same autonomy they operate to heal the body. The dialectic consciousness hinders this autonomy.
          One of the truths where we will get  to with the present study, is the following: the forces which heal the body are the same which can heal the soul, but they don’t hold  in the soul the same autonomy which they avail in the body, in the corporeality. This autonomy of the forces in the soul can however  realize  as a higher achievement  of the consciousness. The art of healing is, first of all, the art of healing the evil in the soul . Healed in the soul, the evil-disease is healed also in the body.
          Only a single evil exists, and its origin is always in the soul. The body heals in the same measure with which forces operate in it, whose  original power is not hindered by the consciousness. These forces are hampered on the soul by the regular  process of the consciousness. They are contradicted, or deviated. The contradiction, or deviation, generates the human evil: whose healing is therefore basically a problem of the consciousness. Really, it is a problem of the thought, because in the modern man, consciousness is essentially thinking consciousness, while the ordinary dialectic process springs, how we will see, from the opposition of the thought to its own original forces, namely, to the original forces of the soul. Thought not connected with its own spring  is the origin of evil.
          The reader who wants to realize about  the original evil-disease unity of soul and body, as something which concern modern man particularly, as such endowed with a principle of responsible self-consciousness of the soul-body relation in accord with an individual dialectic, will have to bear with us through a quest necessarily facing at the outset to a causal factor: the original relation between a spiritual and a bodily, as lost. This relation, which came about according to forces of spontaneity sensed by the intuitive mental of the ancient  man, has become unknowable to the dialectic consciousness  of the modern man.
          The thought of modern man thinks always with the personal authority of the truth: not wrongly, because, even manifesting individually, in truth it springs from an essence grounded  on itself as an universal. The contradictory situation of modern thought is its being without awareness of such universal and ascribing nevertheless, with authority, universal values. Its judgment has always the strength of authority, even when it errs. The erring one isn’t the universal of thought, but rather its lack of awareness of its own spring, namely the universal, independently from the organ media of manifestation . In reality, the essence of the thought is true, its dialectic form is continually the possibility of error.
          The thought projects the universal unconscious  onto the thing, as an “in-itself”, identifying it with an assumed inner structure of it. In the case of physical objectivity, its inner structure is its materiality, investigated, or rather perceived and thought independently of the act of perceiving and thinking it: so that the purpose of knowledge comes to be the ever meticulous penetration of Matter, or the rigorous mathematical-physical operation, whence anyway the Matter, as a thought “in-itself” stays inevitably outside. Hence Matter is thought without knowing it is thought as a metaphysical entity, through an essentially metaphysical activity: an attempt to define physically, through the universal of thought, something which physical aspect come to be excluded of essence, of the universal. The disease of man doesn’t have other origin. The mental which arranges knowledge, contradicting the supra-mental whence knowledge arises, generates the human evil, physical and psychical.
          The imagined noumenon, its being in itself, can be described with a thought which seems to follow it in this “in-itself”, but in truth, deceived to follow it, doesn’t leave at all from itself and includes within its own limit, something which it represents as laying outside of this limit. Anyhow, as laying outside, it is rather identified as universal – for example the light, the heat, the terrestrial magnetism, ect. – when this universal isn’t experienced for what it is, as an alive concept, but rather as a feeling, which fills the empty form of the concept. The feeling is unconscious. Therefore the scientific cosmos, which seems the world of absolute objectivity, is in truth the world of the unconscious subjectivity. In that cosmos there is no man, because there is no relation whence he really moves, there is no real objective, but only its sacred image : which content is inevitably a feeling, a belief.
          The object however can be non-physical: the noumenon then, identified with the same object, is the unknowable given as known, inasmuch as imaging or representing it is to presume its reality, likewise, for example, one talks about social relations, laws and rights, psyche, mind, etc. The unconscious feeling reifies the content, which appears universal, but it is subjective and in this sense erroneous, because the feeling doesn’t exit the limit imposed by the reflected thought: a sentient-instinctive content gets dressed  of thought, is risen as knowledge: it becomes ideology, dogma, myth.
          A similar situation is likewise recognizable in the ordinary process of Science. Normally the investigator doesn’t have the ability to penetrate the object concretely: a part of this is left outside of his knowing. He deals however with the object as if he had it entirely, building of it a fictitious totality with minimal possible identification: the quantitative one. Within this same identification he doesn’t grasp the inner act with which he takes part in it: his knowing stops short with the abstract identity with the sensible. Weight and size become the categories of the real.
          -------------------------------------------------------



        • Frank
          ... Dear Andre, The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 18, 2010
            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello dear fellas
            >
            > I have started a translation to english of a book from the italian Massimo
            > Scaligero: Guarire con il Pensiero (Healing with Thought). The only book in
            > english from him is "The Light" which is only 1 of his 30 books, all on
            > Anthroposophy. Even in Italy he hasn't gained much fame, but the ones who
            > know his writings compare him at the level of Steiner, in a certain
            > sense...an innovative, an evolver.
            > http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?session=bb3cad8c94ed5ad0bd9042d39b913361&id=9780970109767
            >
            > First of all I'd like to ask you if you are aware of other works from him
            > planned for translation; I have alredy posed the question to SteinerBooks,
            > but haven't had any reply so far. To whom is one supposed to ask this
            > questions?
            >
            > Secondly I'd like to paste a sample of my translation so far: the beginning
            > of the book mentioned. Because I am not native english, I am here asking
            > somebody patient to go throght the following lines and report anything that
            > could have had better exposition.
            > The original style is actually quite unusual even for an Italian, the
            > sentences constructions are sometimes rather complex, and many terms are
            > often obsolete.
            > Beside the english translation I am noticing however I'd like to keep a more
            > modern and fluent structure.
            > Any feedback is appreciated.
            > Enjoy!
            >
            >



            Dear Andre,
            The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
            But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to me. Massimo Scaligero.
            http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html

            "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938 and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."

            Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
            Frank
            ___________________


            > -------------------------------------------------------
            > First Part: The Sick Thought
            >
            > Genesis of Evil
            > Man is a sick on the way to healing. His disease is likewise on the soul and
            > on the body. There is no psychical disease which don't become bodily, there
            > is no bodily disease which don't become psychical.
            > A wound of the body heals thanks to forces which have the power to operate
            > on the body: a wound of the soul could heal with the forces of the soul, if
            > these could operate in the soul with the same autonomy they operate to heal
            > the body. The dialectic consciousness hinders this autonomy.
            > One of the truths where we will get to with the present study, is the
            > following: the forces which heal the body are the same which can heal the
            > soul, but they don't hold in the soul the same autonomy which they avail in
            > the body, in the corporeality. This autonomy of the forces in the soul can
            > however realize as a higher achievement of the consciousness. The art of
            > healing is, first of all, the art of healing the evil in the soul . Healed
            > in the soul, the evil-disease is healed also in the body.
            > Only a single evil exists, and its origin is always in the soul. The body
            > heals in the same measure with which forces operate in it, whose original
            > power is not hindered by the consciousness. These forces are hampered on the
            > soul by the regular process of the consciousness. They are contradicted, or
            > deviated. The contradiction, or deviation, generates the human evil: whose
            > healing is therefore basically a problem of the consciousness. Really, it is
            > a problem of the thought, because in the modern man, consciousness is
            > essentially thinking consciousness, while the ordinary dialectic process
            > springs, how we will see, from the opposition of the thought to its own
            > original forces, namely, to the original forces of the soul. Thought not
            > connected with its own spring is the origin of evil.
            > The reader who wants to realize about the original evil-disease unity of
            > soul and body, as something which concern modern man particularly, as such
            > endowed with a principle of responsible self-consciousness of the soul-body
            > relation in accord with an individual dialectic, will have to bear with us
            > through a quest necessarily facing at the outset to a causal factor: the
            > original relation between a spiritual and a bodily, as lost. This relation,
            > which came about according to forces of spontaneity sensed by the intuitive
            > mental of the ancient man, has become unknowable to the dialectic
            > consciousness of the modern man.
            > The thought of modern man thinks always with the personal authority of the
            > truth: not wrongly, because, even manifesting individually, in truth it
            > springs from an essence grounded on itself as an universal. The
            > contradictory situation of modern thought is its being without awareness of
            > such universal and ascribing nevertheless, with authority, universal values.
            > Its judgment has always the strength of authority, even when it errs. The
            > erring one isn't the universal of thought, but rather its lack of awareness
            > of its own spring, namely the universal, independently from the organ media
            > of manifestation . In reality, the essence of the thought is true, its
            > dialectic form is continually the possibility of error.
            > The thought projects the universal unconscious onto the thing, as an
            > "in-itself", identifying it with an assumed inner structure of it. In the
            > case of physical objectivity, its inner structure is its materiality,
            > investigated, or rather perceived and thought independently of the act of
            > perceiving and thinking it: so that the purpose of knowledge comes to be the
            > ever meticulous penetration of Matter, or the rigorous mathematical-physical
            > operation, whence anyway the Matter, as a thought "in-itself" stays
            > inevitably outside. Hence Matter is thought without knowing it is thought as
            > a metaphysical entity, through an essentially metaphysical activity: an
            > attempt to define physically, through the universal of thought, something
            > which physical aspect come to be excluded of essence, of the universal. The
            > disease of man doesn't have other origin. The mental which arranges
            > knowledge, contradicting the supra-mental whence knowledge arises, generates
            > the human evil, physical and psychical.
            > The imagined noumenon, its being in itself, can be described with a thought
            > which seems to follow it in this "in-itself", but in truth, deceived to
            > follow it, doesn't leave at all from itself and includes within its own
            > limit, something which it represents as laying outside of this limit.
            > Anyhow, as laying outside, it is rather identified as universal – for
            > example the light, the heat, the terrestrial magnetism, ect. – when this
            > universal isn't experienced for what it is, as an alive concept, but rather
            > as a feeling, which fills the empty form of the concept. The feeling is
            > unconscious. Therefore the scientific cosmos, which seems the world of
            > absolute objectivity, is in truth the world of the unconscious subjectivity.
            > In that cosmos there is no man, because there is no relation whence he
            > really moves, there is no real objective, but only its sacred image : which
            > content is inevitably a feeling, a belief.
            > The object however can be non-physical: the noumenon then, identified with
            > the same object, is the unknowable given as known, inasmuch as imaging or
            > representing it is to presume its reality, likewise, for example, one talks
            > about social relations, laws and rights, psyche, mind, etc. The unconscious
            > feeling reifies the content, which appears universal, but it is subjective
            > and in this sense erroneous, because the feeling doesn't exit the limit
            > imposed by the reflected thought: a sentient-instinctive content gets
            > dressed of thought, is risen as knowledge: it becomes ideology, dogma,
            > myth.
            > A similar situation is likewise recognizable in the ordinary process of
            > Science. Normally the investigator doesn't have the ability to penetrate the
            > object concretely: a part of this is left outside of his knowing. He deals
            > however with the object as if he had it entirely, building of it a
            > fictitious totality with minimal possible identification: the quantitative
            > one. Within this same identification he doesn't grasp the inner act with
            > which he takes part in it: his knowing stops short with the abstract
            > identity with the sensible. Weight and size become the categories of the
            > real.
            > -------------------------------------------------------
            >
          • dottie zold
            You know Frank, I was thinking about how people can make errors in their lives, or live out the error in the thinking around them, but for me now, this does
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 18, 2010
              You know Frank, I was thinking about how people can make errors in their lives, or live out the error in the thinking around them, but for me now, this does not take away from what they are able to bring forth out of their own experience of the spirit. For me with Steiner it was different.
               
              Steiner to me is The Teacher above all and so for me I would not be able to follow this path he has created if he was even remotelty what the critics say etc. If he was a student as Massimo that would be a different story. I don't expect the students to be perfect nor not a product of what is living around them, however for a teacher of Steiner's caliber, yes, I do expect he understands the human condition in a way that speaks above it and within it as well.
               
              A teacher once said that we all go into the Mysteries with a broken arm and there are plenty of paintings/sculptures that speak to this out of the antiquities, and it is my experience that this is what keeps us humble against all the knowledge we are gaining through inner devotion and suffering.
               
              If Massimo was these things as written below it would not take away from his experience for me. It makes him human and errors of this sort occur. Does it taint him, for me it does not, does it put him in error, yes it does. And we are all in error. Especially those calling as Mr. Staudenmaier does the kettle black.
               
              All good things,
              Dottie

              "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



              --- On Thu, 2/18/10, Frank <eltrigal78@...> wrote:

              From: Frank <eltrigal78@...>
              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 6:47 AM

              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello dear fellas
              >
              > I have started a translation to english of a book from the italian Massimo
              > Scaligero: Guarire con il Pensiero (Healing with Thought). The only book in
              > english from him is "The Light" which is only 1 of his 30 books, all on
              > Anthroposophy. Even in Italy he hasn't gained much fame, but the ones who
              > know his writings compare him at the level of Steiner, in a certain
              > sense...an innovative, an evolver.
              > http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?session=bb3cad8c94ed5ad0bd9042d39b913361&id=9780970109767
              >
              > First of all I'd like to ask you if you are aware of other works from him
              > planned for translation; I have alredy posed the question to SteinerBooks,
              > but haven't had any reply so far. To whom is one supposed to ask this
              > questions?
              >
              > Secondly I'd like to paste a sample of my translation so far: the beginning
              > of the book mentioned. Because I am not native english, I am here asking
              > somebody patient to go throght the following lines and report anything that
              > could have had better exposition.
              > The original style is actually quite unusual even for an Italian, the
              > sentences constructions are sometimes rather complex, and many terms are
              > often obsolete.
              > Beside the english translation I am noticing however I'd like to keep a more
              > modern and fluent structure.
              > Any feedback is appreciated.
              > Enjoy!
              >
              >



              Dear Andre,
              The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
              But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to me. Massimo Scaligero.
              http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html

              "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938 and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."

              Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
              Frank   
              ___________________


              > -------------------------------------------------------
              > First Part: The Sick Thought
              >
              > Genesis of Evil
              > Man is a sick on the way to healing. His disease is likewise on the soul and
              > on the body. There is no psychical disease which don't become bodily, there
              > is no bodily disease which don't become psychical.
              > A wound of the body heals thanks to forces which have the power to operate
              > on the body: a wound of the soul could heal with the forces of the soul, if
              > these could operate in the soul with the same autonomy they operate to heal
              > the body. The dialectic consciousness hinders this autonomy.
              > One of the truths where we will get  to with the present study, is the
              > following: the forces which heal the body are the same which can heal the
              > soul, but they don't hold  in the soul the same autonomy which they avail in
              > the body, in the corporeality. This autonomy of the forces in the soul can
              > however  realize  as a higher achievement  of the consciousness. The art of
              > healing is, first of all, the art of healing the evil in the soul . Healed
              > in the soul, the evil-disease is healed also in the body.
              > Only a single evil exists, and its origin is always in the soul. The body
              > heals in the same measure with which forces operate in it, whose  original
              > power is not hindered by the consciousness. These forces are hampered on the
              > soul by the regular  process of the consciousness. They are contradicted, or
              > deviated. The contradiction, or deviation, generates the human evil: whose
              > healing is therefore basically a problem of the consciousness. Really, it is
              > a problem of the thought, because in the modern man, consciousness is
              > essentially thinking consciousness, while the ordinary dialectic process
              > springs, how we will see, from the opposition of the thought to its own
              > original forces, namely, to the original forces of the soul. Thought not
              > connected with its own spring  is the origin of evil.
              > The reader who wants to realize about  the original evil-disease unity of
              > soul and body, as something which concern modern man particularly, as such
              > endowed with a principle of responsible self-consciousness of the soul-body
              > relation in accord with an individual dialectic, will have to bear with us
              > through a quest necessarily facing at the outset to a causal factor: the
              > original relation between a spiritual and a bodily, as lost. This relation,
              > which came about according to forces of spontaneity sensed by the intuitive
              > mental of the ancient  man, has become unknowable to the dialectic
              > consciousness  of the modern man.
              > The thought of modern man thinks always with the personal authority of the
              > truth: not wrongly, because, even manifesting individually, in truth it
              > springs from an essence grounded  on itself as an universal. The
              > contradictory situation of modern thought is its being without awareness of
              > such universal and ascribing nevertheless, with authority, universal values.
              > Its judgment has always the strength of authority, even when it errs. The
              > erring one isn't the universal of thought, but rather its lack of awareness
              > of its own spring, namely the universal, independently from the organ media
              > of manifestation . In reality, the essence of the thought is true, its
              > dialectic form is continually the possibility of error.
              > The thought projects the universal unconscious  onto the thing, as an
              > "in-itself", identifying it with an assumed inner structure of it. In the
              > case of physical objectivity, its inner structure is its materiality,
              > investigated, or rather perceived and thought independently of the act of
              > perceiving and thinking it: so that the purpose of knowledge comes to be the
              > ever meticulous penetration of Matter, or the rigorous mathematical-physical
              > operation, whence anyway the Matter, as a thought "in-itself" stays
              > inevitably outside. Hence Matter is thought without knowing it is thought as
              > a metaphysical entity, through an essentially metaphysical activity: an
              > attempt to define physically, through the universal of thought, something
              > which physical aspect come to be excluded of essence, of the universal. The
              > disease of man doesn't have other origin. The mental which arranges
              > knowledge, contradicting the supra-mental whence knowledge arises, generates
              > the human evil, physical and psychical.
              > The imagined noumenon, its being in itself, can be described with a thought
              > which seems to follow it in this "in-itself", but in truth, deceived to
              > follow it, doesn't leave at all from itself and includes within its own
              > limit, something which it represents as laying outside of this limit.
              > Anyhow, as laying outside, it is rather identified as universal – for
              > example the light, the heat, the terrestrial magnetism, ect. – when this
              > universal isn't experienced for what it is, as an alive concept, but rather
              > as a feeling, which fills the empty form of the concept. The feeling is
              > unconscious. Therefore the scientific cosmos, which seems the world of
              > absolute objectivity, is in truth the world of the unconscious subjectivity.
              > In that cosmos there is no man, because there is no relation whence he
              > really moves, there is no real objective, but only its sacred image : which
              > content is inevitably a feeling, a belief.
              > The object however can be non-physical: the noumenon then, identified with
              > the same object, is the unknowable given as known, inasmuch as imaging or
              > representing it is to presume its reality, likewise, for example, one talks
              > about social relations, laws and rights, psyche, mind, etc. The unconscious
              > feeling reifies the content, which appears universal, but it is subjective
              > and in this sense erroneous, because the feeling doesn't exit the limit
              > imposed by the reflected thought: a sentient-instinctive content gets
              > dressed  of thought, is risen as knowledge: it becomes ideology, dogma,
              > myth.
              > A similar situation is likewise recognizable in the ordinary process of
              > Science. Normally the investigator doesn't have the ability to penetrate the
              > object concretely: a part of this is left outside of his knowing. He deals
              > however with the object as if he had it entirely, building of it a
              > fictitious totality with minimal possible identification: the quantitative
              > one. Within this same identification he doesn't grasp the inner act with
              > which he takes part in it: his knowing stops short with the abstract
              > identity with the sensible. Weight and size become the categories of the
              > real.
              > -------------------------------------------------------
              >




              ------------------------------------

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            • Andre Gas
              Dear Frank, This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize the
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 19, 2010
                Dear Frank,
                This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man himself?
                Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says about this:

                http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero


                Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the Rosecrucis":
                " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi, Rubbettino, 2007).
                "
                Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                "

                Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically what errors and awkwardness you mention?

                Cheers

                Andrea


                Dear Andre,
                The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to me. Massimo Scaligero.
                http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html

                "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938 and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."

                Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                Frank

              • jeff.baggaley
                Dear Andrea, I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                  Dear Andrea,

                  I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be inaccurate in areas, but it is something to work with at that point, and perhaps fellow Italians with a good working knowledge of English such as Federico, aka Fred, or fellow Anglos with good working knowledge of Italian such as Mark Willan (who has translated a few other works from Scaligero into English, one such work with Scaligero's stamp of approval before his death) may assist in revisions.

                  Some of us actually want to practice the anthroposophical esoteric techniques. Any help and suggestions in doing so from persons who have already followed the Path are always welcome!

                  There are two books by Scaligero which I would be interested in seeing in English translation:

                  Graal

                  There is a synopsis here:

                  http://www.scribd.com/doc/9682181/Massimo-Scaligero-Sacro-Amoreeng

                  And Iside-Sophia:

                  http://books.google.ca/books?id=MZ1yBf6hv0cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massimo+Scaligero&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=18#v=onepage&q=&f=false

                  On another list Federico suggested another title which would probably be of most benefit for English speakers to study.

                  Thank you kindly for taking this initiative!

                  Very best,

                  Jeff

                  PS Note to Federico: I would be interested in seeing you resume your history of Anthroposophy in Italy.



                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Frank,
                  > This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of
                  > anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize
                  > the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what
                  > an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                  > Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you
                  > think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man
                  > himself?
                  > Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says
                  > about this:
                  >
                  > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero
                  >
                  > Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator
                  > in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this
                  > clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive
                  > criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and
                  > mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the
                  > sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the
                  > Rosecrucis":
                  > " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I
                  > saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in
                  > an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate
                  > it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out
                  > by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                  > It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised
                  > anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it
                  > nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate
                  > in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                  > Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi,
                  > Rubbettino, 2007).
                  > "
                  > Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a
                  > mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality
                  > between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                  > "
                  >
                  > Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few
                  > minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically
                  > what errors and awkwardness you mention?
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  >
                  > Andrea
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Dear Andre,
                  > > The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a
                  > > native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is
                  > > therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many
                  > > errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows
                  > > Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                  > > But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to
                  > > me. Massimo Scaligero.
                  > > http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html
                  > >
                  > > "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a
                  > > prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime
                  > > between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in
                  > > the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the
                  > > period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual
                  > > racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries
                  > > in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of
                  > > publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly
                  > > a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he
                  > > produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938
                  > > and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of
                  > > Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his
                  > > most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."
                  > >
                  > > Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone
                  > > overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what
                  > > he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can
                  > > get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result
                  > > of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that
                  > > Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the
                  > > Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea
                  > > culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                  > > Frank
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • jeff.baggaley
                  PS Frank, instead of smearing Scaligero by these racist aspersions, you will need to detail proofs. Otherwise why even bother going by the pretence of using
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                    PS Frank, instead of smearing Scaligero by these racist aspersions, you will need to detail proofs. Otherwise why even bother going by the pretence of using anthropsopsophy as a cover for our activities?

                    Jeff

                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Andrea,
                    >
                    > I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be inaccurate in areas, but it is something to work with at that point, and perhaps fellow Italians with a good working knowledge of English such as Federico, aka Fred, or fellow Anglos with good working knowledge of Italian such as Mark Willan (who has translated a few other works from Scaligero into English, one such work with Scaligero's stamp of approval before his death) may assist in revisions.
                    >
                    > Some of us actually want to practice the anthroposophical esoteric techniques. Any help and suggestions in doing so from persons who have already followed the Path are always welcome!
                    >
                    > There are two books by Scaligero which I would be interested in seeing in English translation:
                    >
                    > Graal
                    >
                    > There is a synopsis here:
                    >
                    > http://www.scribd.com/doc/9682181/Massimo-Scaligero-Sacro-Amoreeng
                    >
                    > And Iside-Sophia:
                    >
                    > http://books.google.ca/books?id=MZ1yBf6hv0cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massimo+Scaligero&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=18#v=onepage&q=&f=false
                    >
                    > On another list Federico suggested another title which would probably be of most benefit for English speakers to study.
                    >
                    > Thank you kindly for taking this initiative!
                    >
                    > Very best,
                    >
                    > Jeff
                    >
                    > PS Note to Federico: I would be interested in seeing you resume your history of Anthroposophy in Italy.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Frank,
                    > > This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of
                    > > anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize
                    > > the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what
                    > > an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                    > > Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you
                    > > think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man
                    > > himself?
                    > > Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says
                    > > about this:
                    > >
                    > > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero
                    > >
                    > > Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator
                    > > in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this
                    > > clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive
                    > > criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and
                    > > mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the
                    > > sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the
                    > > Rosecrucis":
                    > > " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I
                    > > saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in
                    > > an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate
                    > > it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out
                    > > by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                    > > It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised
                    > > anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it
                    > > nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate
                    > > in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                    > > Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi,
                    > > Rubbettino, 2007).
                    > > "
                    > > Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a
                    > > mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality
                    > > between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                    > > "
                    > >
                    > > Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few
                    > > minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically
                    > > what errors and awkwardness you mention?
                    > >
                    > > Cheers
                    > >
                    > > Andrea
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Dear Andre,
                    > > > The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a
                    > > > native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is
                    > > > therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many
                    > > > errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows
                    > > > Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                    > > > But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to
                    > > > me. Massimo Scaligero.
                    > > > http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html
                    > > >
                    > > > "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a
                    > > > prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime
                    > > > between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in
                    > > > the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the
                    > > > period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual
                    > > > racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries
                    > > > in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of
                    > > > publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly
                    > > > a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he
                    > > > produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938
                    > > > and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of
                    > > > Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his
                    > > > most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."
                    > > >
                    > > > Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone
                    > > > overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what
                    > > > he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can
                    > > > get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result
                    > > > of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that
                    > > > Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the
                    > > > Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea
                    > > > culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                    > > > Frank
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • jeff.baggaley
                    Yes, I believe Federico mentioned that the Practical Handbook of Meditation would be of great benefit to English speakers. Is that correct? When you actually
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                      Yes, I believe Federico mentioned that the Practical Handbook of Meditation would be of great benefit to English speakers. Is that correct?

                      When you actually start taking a look at Scaligero's Work, it's amazing that it is not more generally available.

                      It is with deep gratitude that our Italian friends are now bringing this to the English world.

                      Jeff

                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Andrea,
                      >
                      > I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be inaccurate in areas, but it is something to work with at that point, and perhaps fellow Italians with a good working knowledge of English such as Federico, aka Fred, or fellow Anglos with good working knowledge of Italian such as Mark Willan (who has translated a few other works from Scaligero into English, one such work with Scaligero's stamp of approval before his death) may assist in revisions.
                      >
                      > Some of us actually want to practice the anthroposophical esoteric techniques. Any help and suggestions in doing so from persons who have already followed the Path are always welcome!
                      >
                      > There are two books by Scaligero which I would be interested in seeing in English translation:
                      >
                      > Graal
                      >
                      > There is a synopsis here:
                      >
                      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/9682181/Massimo-Scaligero-Sacro-Amoreeng
                      >
                      > And Iside-Sophia:
                      >
                      > http://books.google.ca/books?id=MZ1yBf6hv0cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massimo+Scaligero&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=18#v=onepage&q=&f=false
                      >
                      > On another list Federico suggested another title which would probably be of most benefit for English speakers to study.
                      >
                      > Thank you kindly for taking this initiative!
                      >
                      > Very best,
                      >
                      > Jeff
                      >
                      > PS Note to Federico: I would be interested in seeing you resume your history of Anthroposophy in Italy.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear Frank,
                      > > This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of
                      > > anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize
                      > > the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what
                      > > an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                      > > Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you
                      > > think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man
                      > > himself?
                      > > Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says
                      > > about this:
                      > >
                      > > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero
                      > >
                      > > Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator
                      > > in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this
                      > > clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive
                      > > criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and
                      > > mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the
                      > > sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the
                      > > Rosecrucis":
                      > > " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I
                      > > saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in
                      > > an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate
                      > > it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out
                      > > by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                      > > It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised
                      > > anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it
                      > > nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate
                      > > in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                      > > Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi,
                      > > Rubbettino, 2007).
                      > > "
                      > > Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a
                      > > mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality
                      > > between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                      > > "
                      > >
                      > > Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few
                      > > minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically
                      > > what errors and awkwardness you mention?
                      > >
                      > > Cheers
                      > >
                      > > Andrea
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Dear Andre,
                      > > > The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a
                      > > > native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is
                      > > > therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many
                      > > > errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows
                      > > > Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                      > > > But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to
                      > > > me. Massimo Scaligero.
                      > > > http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html
                      > > >
                      > > > "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a
                      > > > prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime
                      > > > between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in
                      > > > the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the
                      > > > period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual
                      > > > racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries
                      > > > in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of
                      > > > publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly
                      > > > a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he
                      > > > produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938
                      > > > and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of
                      > > > Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his
                      > > > most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."
                      > > >
                      > > > Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone
                      > > > overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what
                      > > > he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can
                      > > > get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result
                      > > > of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that
                      > > > Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the
                      > > > Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea
                      > > > culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                      > > > Frank
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • dottie zold
                      Jeff, those in the battle with the cult of Peter Staudemaier have learned to bring these things up because they are being said and instead of being offended
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                        Jeff, those in the battle with the cult of Peter Staudemaier have learned to bring these things up because they are being said and instead of being offended when one answers the questions objectively it addresses it without being swept aside. There is no relating with Mr. Staudenmaeir and said cult of Science only mam' as there really is no thinking just polemics but it is good to address the questions so what is being said does sets a reputation which is untrue.
                         
                        All good things,
                        Dottie

                        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                        --- On Sat, 2/20/10, jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:

                        From: jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 5:06 AM

                        PS Frank, instead of smearing Scaligero by these racist aspersions, you will need to detail proofs. Otherwise why even bother going by the pretence of using anthropsopsophy as a cover for our activities?

                        Jeff

                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Andrea,
                        >
                        > I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be inaccurate in areas, but it is something to work with at that point, and perhaps fellow Italians with a good working knowledge of English such as Federico, aka Fred, or fellow Anglos with good working knowledge of Italian such as Mark Willan (who has translated a few other works from Scaligero into English, one such work with Scaligero's stamp of approval before his death) may assist in revisions.
                        >
                        > Some of us actually want to practice the anthroposophical esoteric techniques. Any help and suggestions in doing so from persons who have already followed the Path are always welcome!
                        >
                        > There are two books by Scaligero which I would be interested in seeing in English translation:
                        >
                        > Graal
                        >
                        > There is a synopsis here:
                        >
                        > http://www.scribd.com/doc/9682181/Massimo-Scaligero-Sacro-Amoreeng
                        >
                        > And Iside-Sophia:
                        >
                        > http://books.google.ca/books?id=MZ1yBf6hv0cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massimo+Scaligero&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=18#v=onepage&q=&f=false
                        >
                        > On another list Federico suggested another title which would probably be of most benefit for English speakers to study.
                        >
                        > Thank you kindly for taking this initiative!
                        >
                        > Very best,
                        >
                        > Jeff
                        >
                        > PS Note to Federico: I would be interested in seeing you resume your history of Anthroposophy in Italy.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear Frank,
                        > > This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of
                        > > anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize
                        > > the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what
                        > > an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                        > > Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you
                        > > think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man
                        > > himself?
                        > > Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says
                        > > about this:
                        > >
                        > > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero
                        > >
                        > > Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator
                        > > in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this
                        > > clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive
                        > > criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and
                        > > mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the
                        > > sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the
                        > > Rosecrucis":
                        > > " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I
                        > > saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in
                        > > an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate
                        > > it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out
                        > > by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                        > > It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised
                        > > anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it
                        > > nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate
                        > > in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                        > > Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi,
                        > > Rubbettino, 2007).
                        > > "
                        > > Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a
                        > > mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality
                        > > between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                        > > "
                        > >
                        > > Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few
                        > > minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically
                        > > what errors and awkwardness you mention?
                        > >
                        > > Cheers
                        > >
                        > > Andrea
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Dear Andre,
                        > > > The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a
                        > > > native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is
                        > > > therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many
                        > > > errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows
                        > > > Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                        > > > But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to
                        > > > me. Massimo Scaligero.
                        > > > http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html
                        > > >
                        > > > "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a
                        > > > prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime
                        > > > between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in
                        > > > the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the
                        > > > period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual
                        > > > racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries
                        > > > in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of
                        > > > publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly
                        > > > a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he
                        > > > produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938
                        > > > and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of
                        > > > Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his
                        > > > most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."
                        > > >
                        > > > Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone
                        > > > overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what
                        > > > he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can
                        > > > get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result
                        > > > of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that
                        > > > Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the
                        > > > Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea
                        > > > culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                        > > > Frank
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >




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                      • jeff.baggaley
                        Dear Dottie, I have absolutely no idea what you are saying. I read your response four or five times and I still could not get any clarity. I have not been
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                          Dear Dottie,

                          I have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

                          I read your response four or five times and I still could not get any clarity.

                          I have not been involved in said 'battle' and that may be why I find your comment unintelligible.

                          Would you please spell it out, if you care to.

                          Thanks kindly,

                          Jeff

                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Jeff, those in the battle with the cult of Peter Staudemaier have learned to bring these things up because they are being said and instead of being offended when one answers the questions objectively it addresses it without being swept aside. There is no relating with Mr. Staudenmaeir and said cult of Science only mam' as there really is no thinking just polemics but it is good to address the questions so what is being said does sets a reputation which is untrue.
                          >  
                          > All good things,
                          > Dottie
                          >
                          >
                          > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Sat, 2/20/10, jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                          > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                          > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 5:06 AM
                          >
                          >
                          > PS Frank, instead of smearing Scaligero by these racist aspersions, you will need to detail proofs. Otherwise why even bother going by the pretence of using anthropsopsophy as a cover for our activities?
                          >
                          > Jeff
                          >
                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear Andrea,
                          > >
                          > > I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be inaccurate in areas, but it is something to work with at that point, and perhaps fellow Italians with a good working knowledge of English such as Federico, aka Fred, or fellow Anglos with good working knowledge of Italian such as Mark Willan (who has translated a few other works from Scaligero into English, one such work with Scaligero's stamp of approval before his death) may assist in revisions.
                          > >
                          > > Some of us actually want to practice the anthroposophical esoteric techniques. Any help and suggestions in doing so from persons who have already followed the Path are always welcome!
                          > >
                          > > There are two books by Scaligero which I would be interested in seeing in English translation:
                          > >
                          > > Graal
                          > >
                          > > There is a synopsis here:
                          > >
                          > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/9682181/Massimo-Scaligero-Sacro-Amoreeng
                          > >
                          > > And Iside-Sophia:
                          > >
                          > > http://books.google.ca/books?id=MZ1yBf6hv0cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massimo+Scaligero&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=18#v=onepage&q=&f=false
                          > >
                          > > On another list Federico suggested another title which would probably be of most benefit for English speakers to study.
                          > >
                          > > Thank you kindly for taking this initiative!
                          > >
                          > > Very best,
                          > >
                          > > Jeff
                          > >
                          > > PS Note to Federico: I would be interested in seeing you resume your history of Anthroposophy in Italy.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Dear Frank,
                          > > > This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of
                          > > > anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize
                          > > > the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what
                          > > > an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                          > > > Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you
                          > > > think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man
                          > > > himself?
                          > > > Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says
                          > > > about this:
                          > > >
                          > > > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero
                          > > >
                          > > > Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator
                          > > > in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this
                          > > > clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive
                          > > > criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and
                          > > > mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the
                          > > > sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the
                          > > > Rosecrucis":
                          > > > " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I
                          > > > saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in
                          > > > an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate
                          > > > it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out
                          > > > by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                          > > > It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised
                          > > > anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it
                          > > > nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate
                          > > > in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                          > > > Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi,
                          > > > Rubbettino, 2007).
                          > > > "
                          > > > Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a
                          > > > mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality
                          > > > between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                          > > > "
                          > > >
                          > > > Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few
                          > > > minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically
                          > > > what errors and awkwardness you mention?
                          > > >
                          > > > Cheers
                          > > >
                          > > > Andrea
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dear Andre,
                          > > > > The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a
                          > > > > native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is
                          > > > > therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many
                          > > > > errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows
                          > > > > Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                          > > > > But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to
                          > > > > me. Massimo Scaligero.
                          > > > > http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a
                          > > > > prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime
                          > > > > between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in
                          > > > > the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the
                          > > > > period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual
                          > > > > racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries
                          > > > > in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of
                          > > > > publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly
                          > > > > a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he
                          > > > > produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938
                          > > > > and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of
                          > > > > Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his
                          > > > > most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone
                          > > > > overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what
                          > > > > he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can
                          > > > > get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result
                          > > > > of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that
                          > > > > Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the
                          > > > > Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea
                          > > > > culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                          > > > > Frank
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                        • dottie zold
                          Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero. He has shown some
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                            Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero. He has shown some out of context quotes Scaligero quotes on the critics list as he has done with Rudolf Steiner's works as well. And there has been a battle over this for many years with Steiner students working to get the quotes in context and to call him out on his charges.
                             
                            All good things,
                            Dottie

                            "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                            --- On Sat, 2/20/10, jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:

                            From: jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                            Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                            To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 7:32 AM

                            Dear Dottie,

                            I have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

                            I read your response four or five times and I still could not get any clarity.

                            I have not been involved in said 'battle' and that may be why I find your comment unintelligible.

                            Would you please spell it out, if you care to.

                            Thanks kindly,

                            Jeff

                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Jeff, those in the battle with the cult of Peter Staudemaier have learned to bring these things up because they are being said and instead of being offended when one answers the questions objectively it addresses it without being swept aside. There is no relating with Mr. Staudenmaeir and said cult of Science only mam' as there really is no thinking just polemics but it is good to address the questions so what is being said does sets a reputation which is untrue.
                            >  
                            > All good things,
                            > Dottie
                            >
                            >
                            > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- On Sat, 2/20/10, jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                            > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 5:06 AM
                            >
                            >
                            > PS Frank, instead of smearing Scaligero by these racist aspersions, you will need to detail proofs. Otherwise why even bother going by the pretence of using anthropsopsophy as a cover for our activities?
                            >
                            > Jeff
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dear Andrea,
                            > >
                            > > I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be inaccurate in areas, but it is something to work with at that point, and perhaps fellow Italians with a good working knowledge of English such as Federico, aka Fred, or fellow Anglos with good working knowledge of Italian such as Mark Willan (who has translated a few other works from Scaligero into English, one such work with Scaligero's stamp of approval before his death) may assist in revisions.
                            > >
                            > > Some of us actually want to practice the anthroposophical esoteric techniques. Any help and suggestions in doing so from persons who have already followed the Path are always welcome!
                            > >
                            > > There are two books by Scaligero which I would be interested in seeing in English translation:
                            > >
                            > > Graal
                            > >
                            > > There is a synopsis here:
                            > >
                            > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/9682181/Massimo-Scaligero-Sacro-Amoreeng
                            > >
                            > > And Iside-Sophia:
                            > >
                            > > http://books.google.ca/books?id=MZ1yBf6hv0cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massimo+Scaligero&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=18#v=onepage&q=&f=false
                            > >
                            > > On another list Federico suggested another title which would probably be of most benefit for English speakers to study.
                            > >
                            > > Thank you kindly for taking this initiative!
                            > >
                            > > Very best,
                            > >
                            > > Jeff
                            > >
                            > > PS Note to Federico: I would be interested in seeing you resume your history of Anthroposophy in Italy.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Dear Frank,
                            > > > This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of
                            > > > anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize
                            > > > the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what
                            > > > an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                            > > > Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you
                            > > > think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man
                            > > > himself?
                            > > > Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says
                            > > > about this:
                            > > >
                            > > > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero
                            > > >
                            > > > Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator
                            > > > in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this
                            > > > clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive
                            > > > criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and
                            > > > mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the
                            > > > sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the
                            > > > Rosecrucis":
                            > > > " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I
                            > > > saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in
                            > > > an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate
                            > > > it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out
                            > > > by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                            > > > It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised
                            > > > anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it
                            > > > nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate
                            > > > in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                            > > > Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi,
                            > > > Rubbettino, 2007).
                            > > > "
                            > > > Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a
                            > > > mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality
                            > > > between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                            > > > "
                            > > >
                            > > > Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few
                            > > > minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically
                            > > > what errors and awkwardness you mention?
                            > > >
                            > > > Cheers
                            > > >
                            > > > Andrea
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Dear Andre,
                            > > > > The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a
                            > > > > native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is
                            > > > > therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many
                            > > > > errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows
                            > > > > Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                            > > > > But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to
                            > > > > me. Massimo Scaligero.
                            > > > > http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a
                            > > > > prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime
                            > > > > between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in
                            > > > > the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the
                            > > > > period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual
                            > > > > racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries
                            > > > > in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of
                            > > > > publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly
                            > > > > a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he
                            > > > > produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938
                            > > > > and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of
                            > > > > Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his
                            > > > > most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone
                            > > > > overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what
                            > > > > he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can
                            > > > > get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result
                            > > > > of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that
                            > > > > Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the
                            > > > > Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea
                            > > > > culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                            > > > > Frank
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >




                            ------------------------------------

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                          • jeff.baggaley
                            OK, thanks Dottie. It is probably just as well that I have not been aware of this battle . It is preposterous on the face of it that Steiner could by any
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                              OK, thanks Dottie. It is probably just as well that I have not been aware of this 'battle'. It is preposterous on the face of it that Steiner could by any stretch be called an antisemite or a racist.

                              Then once you gain any kind of familiarity with Steiner's work, it is clear that all such accusations are made out of either ignorance or agenda.

                              I don't know about Scaligero as so little of his work is available in English, but based on what I have looked at it seems extremely unlikely.

                              In any event these are the kinds of assertions which really need to be demonstrated.

                              When it comes to these kinds of issues we should probably situate them within the context of the New Testament, and those passages directed towards the Jews, as well as the Pharisees and Jewish Talmudic lawyers, specifically those passages which Christ directs towards the Pharisees. If Christ were alive today, in Germany let's say, and said those kinds of things, He would, under current hate laws, whatever those are, be locked up.

                              Jeff

                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero. He has shown some out of context quotes Scaligero quotes on the critics list as he has done with Rudolf Steiner's works as well. And there has been a battle over this for many years with Steiner students working to get the quotes in context and to call him out on his charges.
                              >  
                              > All good things,
                              > Dottie
                              >
                              >
                              > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- On Sat, 2/20/10, jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                              > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                              > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 7:32 AM
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Dottie,
                              >
                              > I have absolutely no idea what you are saying.
                              >
                              > I read your response four or five times and I still could not get any clarity.
                              >
                              > I have not been involved in said 'battle' and that may be why I find your comment unintelligible.
                              >
                              > Would you please spell it out, if you care to.
                              >
                              > Thanks kindly,
                              >
                              > Jeff
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Jeff, those in the battle with the cult of Peter Staudemaier have learned to bring these things up because they are being said and instead of being offended when one answers the questions objectively it addresses it without being swept aside. There is no relating with Mr. Staudenmaeir and said cult of Science only mam' as there really is no thinking just polemics but it is good to address the questions so what is being said does sets a reputation which is untrue.
                              > >  
                              > > All good things,
                              > > Dottie
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- On Sat, 2/20/10, jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From: jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@>
                              > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                              > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 5:06 AM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > PS Frank, instead of smearing Scaligero by these racist aspersions, you will need to detail proofs. Otherwise why even bother going by the pretence of using anthropsopsophy as a cover for our activities?
                              > >
                              > > Jeff
                              > >
                              > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Dear Andrea,
                              > > >
                              > > > I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be inaccurate in areas, but it is something to work with at that point, and perhaps fellow Italians with a good working knowledge of English such as Federico, aka Fred, or fellow Anglos with good working knowledge of Italian such as Mark Willan (who has translated a few other works from Scaligero into English, one such work with Scaligero's stamp of approval before his death) may assist in revisions.
                              > > >
                              > > > Some of us actually want to practice the anthroposophical esoteric techniques. Any help and suggestions in doing so from persons who have already followed the Path are always welcome!
                              > > >
                              > > > There are two books by Scaligero which I would be interested in seeing in English translation:
                              > > >
                              > > > Graal
                              > > >
                              > > > There is a synopsis here:
                              > > >
                              > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/9682181/Massimo-Scaligero-Sacro-Amoreeng
                              > > >
                              > > > And Iside-Sophia:
                              > > >
                              > > > http://books.google.ca/books?id=MZ1yBf6hv0cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massimo+Scaligero&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=18#v=onepage&q=&f=false
                              > > >
                              > > > On another list Federico suggested another title which would probably be of most benefit for English speakers to study.
                              > > >
                              > > > Thank you kindly for taking this initiative!
                              > > >
                              > > > Very best,
                              > > >
                              > > > Jeff
                              > > >
                              > > > PS Note to Federico: I would be interested in seeing you resume your history of Anthroposophy in Italy.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dear Frank,
                              > > > > This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of
                              > > > > anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize
                              > > > > the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what
                              > > > > an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                              > > > > Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you
                              > > > > think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man
                              > > > > himself?
                              > > > > Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says
                              > > > > about this:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator
                              > > > > in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this
                              > > > > clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive
                              > > > > criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and
                              > > > > mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the
                              > > > > sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the
                              > > > > Rosecrucis":
                              > > > > " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I
                              > > > > saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in
                              > > > > an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate
                              > > > > it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out
                              > > > > by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                              > > > > It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised
                              > > > > anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it
                              > > > > nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate
                              > > > > in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                              > > > > Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi,
                              > > > > Rubbettino, 2007).
                              > > > > "
                              > > > > Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a
                              > > > > mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality
                              > > > > between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                              > > > > "
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few
                              > > > > minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically
                              > > > > what errors and awkwardness you mention?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Cheers
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Andrea
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Dear Andre,
                              > > > > > The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a
                              > > > > > native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is
                              > > > > > therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many
                              > > > > > errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows
                              > > > > > Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                              > > > > > But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to
                              > > > > > me. Massimo Scaligero.
                              > > > > > http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a
                              > > > > > prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime
                              > > > > > between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in
                              > > > > > the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the
                              > > > > > period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual
                              > > > > > racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries
                              > > > > > in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of
                              > > > > > publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly
                              > > > > > a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he
                              > > > > > produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938
                              > > > > > and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of
                              > > > > > Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his
                              > > > > > most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone
                              > > > > > overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what
                              > > > > > he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can
                              > > > > > get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result
                              > > > > > of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that
                              > > > > > Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the
                              > > > > > Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea
                              > > > > > culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                              > > > > > Frank
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                            • Andre Gas
                              Thanks a lot for your words Dotty and Jeff, that s encouraging. Dotty I had wrote a big reply, but I have lost it...sorry!! I wanted just to check, as you
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                                Thanks a lot for your words Dotty and Jeff, that's encouraging. Dotty I had wrote a big reply, but I have lost it...sorry!!

                                I wanted just to check, as you mention, whether someone else has already worked on part of this book, so we could agree to share the work.

                                To me, Healing with Thinking is a more urgent book than others from Scaligero I have read. In translating it I am also helping myself a lot in understanding Scaligero's profound point of view...for now I have time to work on it...it would be nice to have it fully translated so to see what impact it might have, along with The Light.

                                Best Regards
                                Andrea



                                2010/2/20 jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                                 

                                OK, thanks Dottie. It is probably just as well that I have not been aware of this 'battle'. It is preposterous on the face of it that Steiner could by any stretch be called an antisemite or a racist.

                                Then once you gain any kind of familiarity with Steiner's work, it is clear that all such accusations are made out of either ignorance or agenda.

                                I don't know about Scaligero as so little of his work is available in English, but based on what I have looked at it seems extremely unlikely.

                                In any event these are the kinds of assertions which really need to be demonstrated.

                                When it comes to these kinds of issues we should probably situate them within the context of the New Testament, and those passages directed towards the Jews, as well as the Pharisees and Jewish Talmudic lawyers, specifically those passages which Christ directs towards the Pharisees. If Christ were alive today, in Germany let's say, and said those kinds of things, He would, under current hate laws, whatever those are, be locked up.



                                Jeff

                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero. He has shown some out of context quotes Scaligero quotes on the critics list as he has done with Rudolf Steiner's works as well. And there has been a battle over this for many years with Steiner students working to get the quotes in context and to call him out on his charges.
                                >  
                                > All good things,
                                > Dottie
                                >
                                >
                                > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner

                              • dottie zold
                                Andrea I have a friend who could help, she is native Italian and English and if you have time to work on it she can go through it if you lay the foundation. If
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                                  Andrea I have a friend who could help, she is native Italian and English and if you have time to work on it she can go through it if you lay the foundation. If not then I say lets get busy and get a group of people together who want to translate the works. I think it is a worthy project. Is there a Scaligiero online group? d

                                  "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                                  --- On Sat, 2/20/10, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:

                                  From: Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 9:35 AM



                                  Thanks a lot for your words Dotty and Jeff, that's encouraging. Dotty I had wrote a big reply, but I have lost it...sorry!!

                                  I wanted just to check, as you mention, whether someone else has already worked on part of this book, so we could agree to share the work.

                                  To me, Healing with Thinking is a more urgent book than others from Scaligero I have read. In translating it I am also helping myself a lot in understanding Scaligero's profound point of view...for now I have time to work on it...it would be nice to have it fully translated so to see what impact it might have, along with The Light.

                                  Best Regards
                                  Andrea



                                  2010/2/20 jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                                   
                                  OK, thanks Dottie. It is probably just as well that I have not been aware of this 'battle'. It is preposterous on the face of it that Steiner could by any stretch be called an antisemite or a racist.

                                  Then once you gain any kind of familiarity with Steiner's work, it is clear that all such accusations are made out of either ignorance or agenda.

                                  I don't know about Scaligero as so little of his work is available in English, but based on what I have looked at it seems extremely unlikely.

                                  In any event these are the kinds of assertions which really need to be demonstrated.

                                  When it comes to these kinds of issues we should probably situate them within the context of the New Testament, and those passages directed towards the Jews, as well as the Pharisees and Jewish Talmudic lawyers, specifically those passages which Christ directs towards the Pharisees. If Christ were alive today, in Germany let's say, and said those kinds of things, He would, under current hate laws, whatever those are, be locked up.


                                  Jeff

                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero. He has shown some out of context quotes Scaligero quotes on the critics list as he has done with Rudolf Steiner's works as well. And there has been a battle over this for many years with Steiner students working to get the quotes in context and to call him out on his charges.
                                  >  
                                  > All good things,
                                  > Dottie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner




                                • Andre Gas
                                  Well, there is Scaligero on Facebook, where my same query hasn t been addressed. There is also the Antroforum where one can find many Scaligero fans, though
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                                  Well, there is Scaligero on Facebook, where my same query hasn't been addressed.
                                  There is also the Antroforum where one can find many Scaligero fans, though Italians of course...I will query that forum as well!!...for sure.
                                  I don't want to bother anybody, like your friend...unless she would love doing it. It's a tedious task, and it proceeds very slowly, therefore time consuming!!! Fortunately, for the moment I have this time resource available!! :-)

                                  I am proceeding in a word table, scanned Italian on left, english translation on right, and I am inserting revision notes where I have doubts...there are many to be checked.
                                  I am attaching this file here.

                                  Best Regards
                                  Andrea




                                  2010/2/20 dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                   

                                  Andrea I have a friend who could help, she is native Italian and English and if you have time to work on it she can go through it if you lay the foundation. If not then I say lets get busy and get a group of people together who want to translate the works. I think it is a worthy project. Is there a Scaligiero online group? d


                                  "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                                  --- On Sat, 2/20/10, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:

                                  From: Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in englishDate: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 9:35 AM




                                  Thanks a lot for your words Dotty and Jeff, that's encouraging. Dotty I had wrote a big reply, but I have lost it...sorry!!

                                  I wanted just to check, as you mention, whether someone else has already worked on part of this book, so we could agree to share the work.

                                  To me, Healing with Thinking is a more urgent book than others from Scaligero I have read. In translating it I am also helping myself a lot in understanding Scaligero's profound point of view...for now I have time to work on it...it would be nice to have it fully translated so to see what impact it might have, along with The Light.

                                  Best Regards
                                  Andrea



                                  2010/2/20 jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                                   
                                  OK, thanks Dottie. It is probably just as well that I have not been aware of this 'battle'. It is preposterous on the face of it that Steiner could by any stretch be called an antisemite or a racist.

                                  Then once you gain any kind of familiarity with Steiner's work, it is clear that all such accusations are made out of either ignorance or agenda.

                                  I don't know about Scaligero as so little of his work is available in English, but based on what I have looked at it seems extremely unlikely.

                                  In any event these are the kinds of assertions which really need to be demonstrated.

                                  When it comes to these kinds of issues we should probably situate them within the context of the New Testament, and those passages directed towards the Jews, as well as the Pharisees and Jewish Talmudic lawyers, specifically those passages which Christ directs towards the Pharisees. If Christ were alive today, in Germany let's say, and said those kinds of things, He would, under current hate laws, whatever those are, be locked up.


                                  Jeff

                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero. He has shown some out of context quotes Scaligero quotes on the critics list as he has done with Rudolf Steiner's works as well. And there has been a battle over this for many years with Steiner students working to get the quotes in context and to call him out on his charges.
                                  >  
                                  > All good things,
                                  > Dottie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner





                                • jeff.baggaley
                                  Dear Andrea, Would you please ask if anyone knows of a manuscript translation of Scaligero s Graal. Thank you. Jeff
                                  Message 17 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                                    Dear Andrea,

                                    Would you please ask if anyone knows of a manuscript translation of Scaligero's Graal.

                                    Thank you.

                                    Jeff

                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Well, there is Scaligero on Facebook, where my same query hasn't been
                                    > addressed.
                                    > There is also the Antroforum where one can find many Scaligero fans, though
                                    > Italians of course...I will query that forum as well!!...for sure.
                                    > I don't want to bother anybody, like your friend...unless she would love
                                    > doing it. It's a tedious task, and it proceeds very slowly, therefore time
                                    > consuming!!! Fortunately, for the moment I have this time resource
                                    > available!! :-)
                                    >
                                    > I am proceeding in a word table, scanned Italian on left, english
                                    > translation on right, and I am inserting revision notes where I have
                                    > doubts...there are many to be checked.
                                    > I am attaching this file here.
                                    >
                                    > Best Regards
                                    > Andrea
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > 2010/2/20 dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Andrea I have a friend who could help, she is native Italian and English
                                    > > and if you have time to work on it she can go through it if you lay the
                                    > > foundation. If not then I say lets get busy and get a group of people
                                    > > together who want to translate the works. I think it is a worthy project. Is
                                    > > there a Scaligiero online group? d
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > *"Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out
                                    > > in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                                    > > *
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On *Sat, 2/20/10, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>* wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>
                                    > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                                    > >
                                    > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 9:35 AM
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks a lot for your words Dotty and Jeff, that's encouraging. Dotty I had
                                    > > wrote a big reply, but I have lost it...sorry!!
                                    > >
                                    > > I wanted just to check, as you mention, whether someone else has already
                                    > > worked on part of this book, so we could agree to share the work.
                                    > >
                                    > > To me, Healing with Thinking is a more urgent book than others from
                                    > > Scaligero I have read. In translating it I am also helping myself a lot in
                                    > > understanding Scaligero's profound point of view...for now I have time to
                                    > > work on it...it would be nice to have it fully translated so to see what
                                    > > impact it might have, along with The Light.
                                    > >
                                    > > Best Regards
                                    > > Andrea
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > 2010/2/20 jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...<http://us.mc560.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jeff.baggaley@...>
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >>
                                    > >> OK, thanks Dottie. It is probably just as well that I have not been
                                    > >> aware of this 'battle'. It is preposterous on the face of it that Steiner
                                    > >> could by any stretch be called an antisemite or a racist.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Then once you gain any kind of familiarity with Steiner's work, it is
                                    > >> clear that all such accusations are made out of either ignorance or agenda.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I don't know about Scaligero as so little of his work is available in
                                    > >> English, but based on what I have looked at it seems extremely unlikely.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> In any event these are the kinds of assertions which really need to be
                                    > >> demonstrated.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> When it comes to these kinds of issues we should probably situate them
                                    > >> within the context of the New Testament, and those passages directed towards
                                    > >> the Jews, as well as the Pharisees and Jewish Talmudic lawyers, specifically
                                    > >> those passages which Christ directs towards the Pharisees. If Christ were
                                    > >> alive today, in Germany let's say, and said those kinds of things, He would,
                                    > >> under current hate laws, whatever those are, be locked up.
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Jeff
                                    > >>
                                    > >> --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc560.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > >> dottie zold <dottie_z@> wrote:
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only
                                    > >> Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero.
                                    > >> He has shown some out of context quotes Scaligero quotes on the critics list
                                    > >> as he has done with Rudolf Steiner's works as well. And there has been a
                                    > >> battle over this for many years with Steiner students working to get the
                                    > >> quotes in context and to call him out on his charges.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > All good things,
                                    > >> > Dottie
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out
                                    > >> in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Andre Gas
                                    You d better ask yourself to the board Antroposofia at the following link http://forum.rudolfsteiner.it/index.php?board=20.0 2010/2/21 jeff.baggaley
                                    Message 18 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                                      You'd better ask yourself to the board Antroposofia at the following link

                                      http://forum.rudolfsteiner.it/index.php?board=20.0



                                      2010/2/21 jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                                       

                                      Dear Andrea,

                                      Would you please ask if anyone knows of a manuscript translation of Scaligero's Graal.

                                      Thank you.

                                      Jeff



                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well, there is Scaligero on Facebook, where my same query hasn't been
                                      > addressed.
                                      > There is also the Antroforum where one can find many Scaligero fans, though
                                      > Italians of course...I will query that forum as well!!...for sure.
                                      > I don't want to bother anybody, like your friend...unless she would love
                                      > doing it. It's a tedious task, and it proceeds very slowly, therefore time
                                      > consuming!!! Fortunately, for the moment I have this time resource
                                      > available!! :-)
                                      >
                                      > I am proceeding in a word table, scanned Italian on left, english
                                      > translation on right, and I am inserting revision notes where I have
                                      > doubts...there are many to be checked.
                                      > I am attaching this file here.
                                      >
                                      > Best Regards
                                      > Andrea
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > 2010/2/20 dottie zold <dottie_z@...>

                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Andrea I have a friend who could help, she is native Italian and English
                                      > > and if you have time to work on it she can go through it if you lay the
                                      > > foundation. If not then I say lets get busy and get a group of people
                                      > > together who want to translate the works. I think it is a worthy project. Is
                                      > > there a Scaligiero online group? d
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > *"Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out
                                      > > in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                                      > > *
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- On *Sat, 2/20/10, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>* wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>

                                      > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                                      > >
                                      > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 9:35 AM
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks a lot for your words Dotty and Jeff, that's encouraging. Dotty I had
                                      > > wrote a big reply, but I have lost it...sorry!!
                                      > >
                                      > > I wanted just to check, as you mention, whether someone else has already
                                      > > worked on part of this book, so we could agree to share the work.
                                      > >
                                      > > To me, Healing with Thinking is a more urgent book than others from
                                      > > Scaligero I have read. In translating it I am also helping myself a lot in
                                      > > understanding Scaligero's profound point of view...for now I have time to
                                      > > work on it...it would be nice to have it fully translated so to see what
                                      > > impact it might have, along with The Light.
                                      > >
                                      > > Best Regards
                                      > > Andrea
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > 2010/2/20 jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...<http://us.mc560.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jeff.baggaley@...>

                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >>
                                      > >> OK, thanks Dottie. It is probably just as well that I have not been
                                      > >> aware of this 'battle'. It is preposterous on the face of it that Steiner
                                      > >> could by any stretch be called an antisemite or a racist.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Then once you gain any kind of familiarity with Steiner's work, it is
                                      > >> clear that all such accusations are made out of either ignorance or agenda.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> I don't know about Scaligero as so little of his work is available in
                                      > >> English, but based on what I have looked at it seems extremely unlikely.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> In any event these are the kinds of assertions which really need to be
                                      > >> demonstrated.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> When it comes to these kinds of issues we should probably situate them
                                      > >> within the context of the New Testament, and those passages directed towards
                                      > >> the Jews, as well as the Pharisees and Jewish Talmudic lawyers, specifically
                                      > >> those passages which Christ directs towards the Pharisees. If Christ were
                                      > >> alive today, in Germany let's say, and said those kinds of things, He would,
                                      > >> under current hate laws, whatever those are, be locked up.
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Jeff
                                      > >>
                                      > >> --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc560.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>,

                                      > >> dottie zold <dottie_z@> wrote:
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only
                                      > >> Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero.
                                      > >> He has shown some out of context quotes Scaligero quotes on the critics list
                                      > >> as he has done with Rudolf Steiner's works as well. And there has been a
                                      > >> battle over this for many years with Steiner students working to get the
                                      > >> quotes in context and to call him out on his charges.
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > All good things,
                                      > >> > Dottie
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out
                                      > >> in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >


                                    • dottie zold
                                      Andre I like the word table idea you have of noting areas you think might need some more help. My friend Milena doesn t have alot of time but I know if you
                                      Message 19 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                                        Andre I like the word table idea you have of noting areas you think might need some more help. My friend Milena doesn't have alot of time but I know if you get things going she can check on the languages and how they meet what is trying to be said. She's also someone who appreciates Rudolf Steiner's work although she has not studied it.
                                         
                                        I think it would be a good project/endeavor for you to do if you have time and find worth in Massimo's work and think others could benefit from his considerations. You are now working with the Beings of Form when you seek to create a group such as the one we are speaking about. If it is selfless and serves the Beings will help you to keep on keeping on until you find the right team.
                                         
                                        I will ask tonight for some ideas that might help you with this endeavor.
                                         
                                        All good things,
                                        Dottie

                                        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                                        --- On Sat, 2/20/10, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:

                                        From: Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english [1 Attachment]
                                        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 12:47 PM

                                        [Attachment(s) from Andre Gas included below]

                                        Well, there is Scaligero on Facebook, where my same query hasn't been addressed.
                                        There is also the Antroforum where one can find many Scaligero fans, though Italians of course...I will query that forum as well!!...for sure.
                                        I don't want to bother anybody, like your friend...unless she would love doing it. It's a tedious task, and it proceeds very slowly, therefore time consuming!!! Fortunately, for the moment I have this time resource available!! :-)

                                        I am proceeding in a word table, scanned Italian on left, english translation on right, and I am inserting revision notes where I have doubts...there are many to be checked.
                                        I am attaching this file here.

                                        Best Regards
                                        Andrea




                                        2010/2/20 dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                         
                                        Andrea I have a friend who could help, she is native Italian and English and if you have time to work on it she can go through it if you lay the foundation. If not then I say lets get busy and get a group of people together who want to translate the works. I think it is a worthy project. Is there a Scaligiero online group? d


                                        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                                        --- On Sat, 2/20/10, Andre Gas <lonbluster@...> wrote:

                                        From: Andre Gas <lonbluster@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in englishDate: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 9:35 AM




                                        Thanks a lot for your words Dotty and Jeff, that's encouraging. Dotty I had wrote a big reply, but I have lost it...sorry!!

                                        I wanted just to check, as you mention, whether someone else has already worked on part of this book, so we could agree to share the work.

                                        To me, Healing with Thinking is a more urgent book than others from Scaligero I have read. In translating it I am also helping myself a lot in understanding Scaligero's profound point of view...for now I have time to work on it...it would be nice to have it fully translated so to see what impact it might have, along with The Light.

                                        Best Regards
                                        Andrea



                                        2010/2/20 jeff.baggaley <jeff.baggaley@...>
                                         
                                        OK, thanks Dottie. It is probably just as well that I have not been aware of this 'battle'. It is preposterous on the face of it that Steiner could by any stretch be called an antisemite or a racist.

                                        Then once you gain any kind of familiarity with Steiner's work, it is clear that all such accusations are made out of either ignorance or agenda.

                                        I don't know about Scaligero as so little of his work is available in English, but based on what I have looked at it seems extremely unlikely.

                                        In any event these are the kinds of assertions which really need to be demonstrated.

                                        When it comes to these kinds of issues we should probably situate them within the context of the New Testament, and those passages directed towards the Jews, as well as the Pharisees and Jewish Talmudic lawyers, specifically those passages which Christ directs towards the Pharisees. If Christ were alive today, in Germany let's say, and said those kinds of things, He would, under current hate laws, whatever those are, be locked up.


                                        Jeff

                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Jeff, it is Peter Staudenmaeir who has been writing about not only Rudolf Steiner being an anti semite and racist but also Massimo Scaligero. He has shown some out of context quotes Scaligero quotes on the critics list as he has done with Rudolf Steiner's works as well. And there has been a battle over this for many years with Steiner students working to get the quotes in context and to call him out on his charges.
                                        >  
                                        > All good things,
                                        > Dottie
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner






                                        Attachment(s) from Andre Gas

                                        1 of 1 File(s)



                                      • fs13997
                                        The suggestion of creating a network to collaborate on the translation of one of Massimo s books seems a good idea. The text could be posted and various people
                                        Message 20 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
                                          The suggestion of creating a network to collaborate on the translation of one of Massimo's books seems a good idea. The text could be posted and various people might contribute on revising and adding parts. Also, I don't have any interest in any rights that may derive from such work. But together we might help each other through reciprocal suggestions, corrections, and ideas.

                                          Fred

                                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Andre I like the word table idea you have of noting areas you think might need some more help. My friend Milena doesn't have alot of time but I know if you get things going she can check on the languages and how they meet what is trying to be said. She's also someone who appreciates Rudolf Steiner's work although she has not studied it.
                                          >  
                                          > I think it would be a good project/endeavor for you to do if you have time and find worth in Massimo's work and think others could benefit from his considerations. You are now working with the Beings of Form when you seek to create a group such as the one we are speaking about. If it is selfless and serves the Beings will help you to keep on keeping on until you find the right team.
                                          >  
                                          > I will ask tonight for some ideas that might help you with this endeavor.
                                          >  
                                          > All good things,
                                          > Dottie
                                          >
                                        • Frank
                                          ... Come on, Jeff, I m not smearing anybody. My question to our Italian friend(s) was: Are the allegations that Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and
                                          Message 21 of 25 , Feb 21, 2010
                                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > PS Frank, instead of smearing Scaligero by these racist aspersions, you will need to detail proofs. Otherwise why even bother going by the pretence of using anthropsopsophy as a cover for our activities?
                                            >
                                            > Jeff

                                            Come on, Jeff, I'm not smearing anybody. My question to our Italian friend(s) was: "Are the allegations that Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?"

                                            If the allegations are not true, they only have to say so - and why. If so, the rest of the question is irrelevant. I am sincerely interested in this. Here are a couple of quotes:

                                            "In all of this, antisemitism represents only a single chapter; once it has been liquidated through the elimination of the Judaic virus and the biological re-integration of Aryan ethnic values, the campaign will assume much broader proportions in which even sharper forces will be at stake; then we will have achieved the conditions for engaging in a decisive battle against the profane, egalitarian, leveling, and anti-spiritual powers, against the promiscuity of values, against satanic materialism, against the abuses of bourgeois modernity, against the hedonistic and orgiastic modern world." (p. 327) of "Compito eroico dello spirito nell'azione razzista", La Vita Italiana, September 1939, (pp. 327-333) by Scaligero

                                            "The present correspondence between problems of the spirit and problems of politics and civilization must lead us to consider our racial dignity and our antisemitic stance as a profound spiritual responsibility, so that our movement does not exhaust itself in a merely exterior attitude, but imbues itself with the capacity to identify and neutralize those subtle forces of Judaism which act in secret under less suspicious guise. Behind every form of materialistic opportunism, behind every appearance of political or
                                            doctrinal camouflage, behind every kind of utilitarianism and personalism, in every polemical deployment that tries to confuse the terms of the vital problems of the spirit through the subversion of cultural influences, we must recognize a Jewish psychological style, orthodox in form and corrosive in essence, disguised as antisemitic but actually Jewish in its innermost intention. We must oppose the activity of these subtle and secret forces with an action that is radical in the inner sense and that can thus also strike those who are the conscious or unwitting instruments of Hebraism, those who partake in the Semitic campaign to sow doubt about the essence of
                                            our Roman Tradition, or who try to separate the concept of Romanness from the concept of metaphysical knowledge, or sunder the concept of the Empire from the concept of universality. The racist idea must transform itself into the positive reality of the Second Roman Empire." (p. 332) of same.

                                            Translation by Staudenmaier, I presume, because I can't find the book online.

                                            Btw, the original link I cited (egoisten.de) is an anthroposophical site. In any case, if all this is a fabrication by Staudenmaier, it would be very helpful to know it.

                                            Frank
                                            ___________


                                            >
                                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Dear Andrea,
                                            > >
                                            > > I strongly encourage you to continue with your efforts! Frank does have a point that the translation comes across as clunky and may perhaps be inaccurate in areas, but it is something to work with at that point, and perhaps fellow Italians with a good working knowledge of English such as Federico, aka Fred, or fellow Anglos with good working knowledge of Italian such as Mark Willan (who has translated a few other works from Scaligero into English, one such work with Scaligero's stamp of approval before his death) may assist in revisions.
                                            > >
                                            > > Some of us actually want to practice the anthroposophical esoteric techniques. Any help and suggestions in doing so from persons who have already followed the Path are always welcome!
                                            > >
                                            > > There are two books by Scaligero which I would be interested in seeing in English translation:
                                            > >
                                            > > Graal
                                            > >
                                            > > There is a synopsis here:
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/9682181/Massimo-Scaligero-Sacro-Amoreeng
                                            > >
                                            > > And Iside-Sophia:
                                            > >
                                            > > http://books.google.ca/books?id=MZ1yBf6hv0cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massimo+Scaligero&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=18#v=onepage&q=&f=false
                                            > >
                                            > > On another list Federico suggested another title which would probably be of most benefit for English speakers to study.
                                            > >
                                            > > Thank you kindly for taking this initiative!
                                            > >
                                            > > Very best,
                                            > >
                                            > > Jeff
                                            > >
                                            > > PS Note to Federico: I would be interested in seeing you resume your history of Anthroposophy in Italy.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Andre Gas <lonbluster@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Dear Frank,
                                            > > > This is completely non sense to me. Even Steiner has been accused of
                                            > > > anti-semitism, but if you read one of his books cosciously you can realize
                                            > > > the impossibility of the feat. Same for Scaligero: do you have a clue what
                                            > > > an hidrance to esoteric training such idealisms bring about?
                                            > > > Scaligero was talking about thinking, epistemology all the time, don't you
                                            > > > think it's really non sense to arrive to take any position against man
                                            > > > himself?
                                            > > > Anyway for better understanding I translate what the Italian wikipedia says
                                            > > > about this:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Scaligero
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Even the fact that Scaligero could have been, along with Evola, collaborator
                                            > > > in the magazine "The defence of the race" by Telesio Interlandi, this
                                            > > > clarifies alone the vision of man as essentially unequal, only distinctive
                                            > > > criteria of a "thinking thought" built here and there on oriental and
                                            > > > mystical sources. This collaboration, then, can also be intended in the
                                            > > > sense he himself indicated in his autobiography "From Yoga to the
                                            > > > Rosecrucis":
                                            > > > " When racism broke out - he writes - I don't deny I was worried, because I
                                            > > > saw instantly the absurd developments of such a stance. I tryed to react in
                                            > > > an energetic way, giving that initiative a content which could predominate
                                            > > > it, an ethic and symbolic content(...) But my attempt has been knocked out
                                            > > > by the usual political fanaticism (...)
                                            > > > It even happened that an observer would accuse me of "disguised
                                            > > > anti-racialism"(...) What I then thought about racism I keep thinking it
                                            > > > nowadays: I consider it an mental error due to the inability to discriminate
                                            > > > in the conscience the inner element independent of race"
                                            > > > Furthermore he wrote that (From "The right wing and Jews", G.S.Rossi,
                                            > > > Rubbettino, 2007).
                                            > > > "
                                            > > > Each racial problematic denounce a regress in the social sense and a
                                            > > > mystification of culture which pretend to be social(...) The inequality
                                            > > > between man a man isn't an exterior data, but an interior one
                                            > > > "
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Instead of rising such inconsistent argumentations, can't you just spend few
                                            > > > minutes on a single paragraph from mine, so you can tell me specifically
                                            > > > what errors and awkwardness you mention?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Cheers
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Andrea
                                            > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Dear Andre,
                                            > > > > The problem with your translation is that it is obviously not done by a
                                            > > > > native speaker of English...or someone who is completely bilingual. It is
                                            > > > > therefore, although understandable, awkward in style and contains many
                                            > > > > errors. I think you should find a native English speaker who also knows
                                            > > > > Italian to go over it with you and clean it up, so to speak.
                                            > > > > But now to another problem - one which seems to be a problem, at least to
                                            > > > > me. Massimo Scaligero.
                                            > > > > http://www.egoisten.de/autoren/staudenmaier/page461/page461.html
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > "...What anthroposophists do not mention is that Scaligero played a
                                            > > > > prominent role in promoting the racist campaign of the Fascist regime
                                            > > > > between 1938 and 1943, despite the fact that Scaligero's participation in
                                            > > > > the racist campaign is discussed in dozens of historical studies of the
                                            > > > > period. Scaligero was a major spokesman for what he termed "spiritual
                                            > > > > racism." While several other anthroposophists served as active functionaries
                                            > > > > in the Fascist racial bureaucracy, Scaligero's chief position was that of
                                            > > > > publicist, calling for an intensified application of the race laws in nearly
                                            > > > > a hundred articles on race, as well as a 275 page book on race, which he
                                            > > > > produced between the introduction of the Fascist racial legislation in 1938
                                            > > > > and the fall of Mussolini's first regime in 1943. At the heart of
                                            > > > > Scaligero's racial theory was an implacable antisemitism, and much of his
                                            > > > > most aggressively racist writing was directed against the Jews..."
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Although this was written by Peter Staudenmaier, who is known to have gone
                                            > > > > overboard regarding alleged racism and antisemitism in anthroposophy, what
                                            > > > > he says here rings true. (I don't know Italian, but because of Spanish can
                                            > > > > get a general idea of the meaning of certain items that appear as a result
                                            > > > > of a google search.) So my questions to you are: Are the allegations that
                                            > > > > Scaligero was a fascist, anti-Semite and racist - at least during the
                                            > > > > Mussolini regime - true? If so, did he ever recant, apologize offer a mea
                                            > > > > culpa? And if not, is his anthroposophical work forever tainted by his past?
                                            > > > > Frank
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • dottie zold
                                            Fred, . FRANK! i love you always....and Fred has to go please, d Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way.
                                            Message 22 of 25 , Feb 21, 2010
                                              Fred, . FRANK! i love you always....and Fred has to go please, d

                                              "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                                              --- On Sat, 2/20/10, fs13997 <fs13997@...> wrote:

                                              From: fs13997 <fs13997@...>
                                              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero in english
                                              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 10:39 PM

                                              The suggestion of creating a network to collaborate on the translation of one of Massimo's books seems a good idea. The text could be posted and various people might contribute on revising and adding parts. Also, I don't have any interest in any rights that may derive from such work. But together we might help each other through reciprocal suggestions, corrections, and ideas.

                                              Fred

                                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Andre I like the word table idea you have of noting areas you think might need some more help. My friend Milena doesn't have alot of time but I know if you get things going she can check on the languages and how they meet what is trying to be said. She's also someone who appreciates Rudolf Steiner's work although she has not studied it.
                                              >  
                                              > I think it would be a good project/endeavor for you to do if you have time and find worth in Massimo's work and think others could benefit from his considerations. You are now working with the Beings of Form when you seek to create a group such as the one we are speaking about. If it is selfless and serves the Beings will help you to keep on keeping on until you find the right team.
                                              >  
                                              > I will ask tonight for some ideas that might help you with this endeavor.
                                              >  
                                              > All good things,
                                              > Dottie
                                              >




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                                            • Frank
                                              ... ummm Where does Fred have to go?
                                              Message 23 of 25 , Feb 21, 2010
                                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Fred, . FRANK! i love you always....and Fred has to go please, d

                                                ummm Where does Fred have to go?
                                              • Andre Gas
                                                New version, expanded, updated. Enjoy.
                                                Message 24 of 25 , Feb 22, 2010
                                                New version, expanded, updated.
                                                Enjoy.
                                              • Andre Gas
                                                Latest update, for whoever daring. Find attachment and edit as much as you want.
                                                Message 25 of 25 , Feb 27, 2010
                                                Latest update, for whoever daring.
                                                Find attachment and edit as much as you want.
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