Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lilith

Expand Messages
  • Kim Graae Munch
    Here you have a thorough description of the guardian: From HOW TO KNOW HIGHER WORLDS: 3. First, an attempt will be made to give a narrative description of the
    Message 1 of 249 , Feb 9 3:27 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Here you have a thorough description of the guardian:
      From HOW TO KNOW HIGHER WORLDS:
      3. First, an attempt will be made to give a narrative description
      of the meeting with this guardian. It is only
      through this meeting, in fact, that we become aware that
      the implanted connection between thinking, feeling, and
      willing has been undone.
      4. A thoroughly horrid, ghostly being stands before us.
      Hence we shall need full presence of mind and complete
      confidence in the safety and reliability of our cognitive
      path—which we have had ample opportunity to acquire in
      the course of our training—for this encounter.
      5. The guardian then reveals the meaning of this moment
      in words, somewhat as follows:
      Up to now, unseen by you, mighty powers presided over
      you. Through all the previous courses of your lives, they
      brought it about that every good deed was followed by its
      reward, and every evil action was followed by its grievous
      consequences. Through their influence your character
      was formed out of your life experiences and thoughts.
      They were the agents of your destiny. They determined, on
      the basis of your conduct in previous lives, the measure of
      joy and pain allotted to you in each of your incarnations.
      They ruled over you in the form of the all-embracing law
      of karma. These powers will now begin to loosen the reins
      by which they guide you. Now you yourself must do some
      of the work they did for you before.
      Up to now, you endured many heavy blows of fate. You
      did not know why. Each was the consequence of a damaging
      deed done in a previous life. You found joy and
      happiness, and took these as you found them. These,
      too, were the result of earlier actions. You have many
      186 HOW TO KNOW HIGHER WORLDS
      beautiful sides to your character, and many ugly flaws.
      You yourself produced these through your past experiences
      and thoughts. Up to now, you were unaware of
      this; only the effects were known to you. But the karmic
      powers witnessed all your former actions and even your
      most secret thoughts and feelings. And on that basis they
      determined who you are now and how you live in your
      present incarnation.
      6. Now, however, all the good and bad aspects of your
      past lives are to be revealed to you. You will see them for
      yourself. They have been interwoven with your being all
      along. They were in you, and you could not see them, just
      as you cannot see your brain with your eyes. Now, however,
      your past actions are separating themselves from
      you, stepping out of your personality. They are assuming
      an independent form, one that you can see, as you can see
      the stones and plants of the outside world. I am that selfsame
      being, who made a body for itself out of your good
      and your wicked deeds. My ghostly form is spun, so to
      speak, from the account book of your life. Up to now, you
      have carried me invisibly within you. It was for your sake
      that this was so. It meant that the hidden wisdom of your
      destiny continued to work within you to eliminate the ugly
      spots in my appearance. Now that I have come forth from
      you, this hidden wisdom has also left you and will take
      care of you no longer. Instead, it puts the work into your
      own hands. I myself, if I am not to fall into corruption,
      must become a perfect and glorious being. For, were I to
      fall, I would drag you down with me into a dark, corrupted
      world.
      To prevent this, your own wisdom must be great
      enough to take over the task previously performed by the
      hidden wisdom now departed from you. I shall never
      leave your side once you have crossed my threshold. I
      shall always be there beside you in a form you can perceive.
      From then on, whenever you think or act wrongly,
      you will immediately see your fault as an ugly, demonic
      distortion in my appearance. My being will be changed
      and become radiantly beautiful only when you have made
      amends for all your wrongs and have so purified yourself
      that you become incapable of further evil. Then, too, I
      shall be able to unite with you again as a single being in
      order to bless and benefit your further activity,.
      7. My threshold is built of every feeling of fear still
      within you and every feeling of reluctance in the face of
      the strength you need to take on full responsibility for
      your thoughts and actions. As long as you still harbor any
      trace of fear at directing your own destiny, the threshold
      lacks an essential element. As long as a single stone is
      missing, you will remain on this threshold, as if spellbound—
      or stumble. Therefore, do not try to cross this
      threshold until you are completely free of fear and feel
      yourself ready for the highest responsibility.
      8. Until now, I have left you only when death called you
      from an earthly life. But, even then, my form was veiled
      from your eyes. Only the powers of destiny presiding over
      you could see me. During the interval between death and
      rebirth, based on my appearance, they formed in you the
      forces and faculties to enable you to work to make me
      beautiful in your next life, and so ensure the well-being of
      your progress. Thus it was I and my imperfections that
      made the powers of destiny send you back to a new
      earthly incarnation. When you died, I was there. It was
      for my sake that the rulers of karma decided that you must
      reincarnate. If, without knowing it, you were to transform
      and perfect me through life forever renewed in this way,
      then you could avoid falling into the powers of death. But
      then you would have become completely one with me,
      and, united, we would pass into immortality.
      9. So now I stand visible before you, as I have always
      stood invisible beside you in the hour of your death. Once
      you have crossed my threshold, you will enter realms you
      otherwise entered only after physical death. Now you will
      enter them in full knowledge. From now on, though living
      outwardly and visibly upon the earth, you will live at the
      same time in the realm of death, that is, in the realm of
      eternal life. Indeed, I am your angel of death. But at the
      same time I also bring you never-ending higher life.
      While still living in the body, you will die through me and
      experience rebirth into indestructible existence.
      10. In the realm you are henceforth entering, you will
      meet beings of a supersensible kind. Bliss will be your
      share in this realm. Yet I, I who am your own creation,
      must be your first acquaintance in this world. Earlier, I
      lived on your life. But now, through you, I have awakened
      to an independent existence of my own and stand before
      you as the visible standard of your future actions—and
      perhaps also as a constant reproach. You have been able
      to create me and in so doing have taken on the duty of
      transforming me.


      In Excursus on the Gospel According to St. Mark, Lecture III Steiner describes it really beautiful in the case of Buddha:

      We are correct therefore when in speaking of this in spiritual science we say: The moment a man awakes in the morning he enters through the door of his own being. But at this door stands a watcher, the “little guardian of the threshold.” He does not permit man to enter his own being, but directs him at once to the outer world. Each morning we meet this little guardian of the threshold, and anyone who on awakening enters his own nature consciously, learns to know him. In fact the mystic life consists in whether this little guardian of the threshold acts beneficently towards us, making us unaware of our own being, turning our ego aside so that we do not descend into it, or permitting us to pass through the door and enter into our own being. The mystic life enters through the door I have described, and this in Buddhism is called “sitting under the Bodhi tree.” This is nothing else than the descent of a man into his own being through the door that is ordinarily closed to him. What Buddha experienced in this descent is set before us in Buddhistic writings. Such things are no mere legends, but the reflections of profound truths experienced inwardly — truths concerning the soul. These experiences in the language of Buddhism are called “The Temptation of Buddha.”

      Speaking of this Buddha himself tells us how the Beings he loved approached him at the moment when he entered mystically into his own inner being. He tells how they seemed to approach him bidding him to do this or that — for instance, to carry out false exercises so as to enter in a wrong way into his own being. We are even told that the form of his mother appeared to him — he beheld her in her spiritual substance — and she ordered him to begin a false Askese. Naturally this was not the real mother of Buddha. But his temptation consisted in this very fact, that in his first evolved vision he was confronted not by his real mother but by a mask or illusion. Buddha withstood this temptation. Then a host of demoniac forms appeared to him, these he describes as desires, telling how they corresponded to the sensation of hunger and thirst, or the instinct of pride, conceit and arrogance. All these approached him — how? They approached him in so far as they were still within his own astral body, in so far as he had not overcome them at that great moment of his life when he sat under the Bodhi tree. Buddha shows us in a most wonderful way in this temptation, how we feel all the forces and powers of our astral body, which are within us because we have made them ever worse and worse in the course of our development through succeeding incarnations. In spite of having risen so high Buddha still sees them, and now at the final stage of his progress he has to overcome the last of these misleading forces of his astral body which appear to him as demons.

      Kim
       
      --- Den tirs 9/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

      Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Dato: tirsdag 9. februar 2010 02.26

       

      Please stop with this Ahriman....whew, .... something is askew and it is sickening me or something... as it is wrapping itself around and slipn  and slidn and making itself look true when I do not believe it is....Ahriman is not the Guardian of the Threshold... .even on a logistical level Kim how would he be incarnating into a physical being soon we hear, or already has or whathave you, and be Guardian of the Threshold... but in any case it is not this Being.....whose going to take his place, who stepped up:)O

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
      Right, he is our bad karma which holds us back, and that's the
      Ahrimanian beings we haven't transformed.
      Kim
      --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold
      <dottie_z@...> wrote:
      >
      > It is of a heavenly nature not an ahrimanic nature, this being shows
      mankind what he is and why he can not cross until he has transformed
      those elements of himself that have been seduced by the beings thrust
      upon our world that are counter to our higher nature and ongoing
      evolution of man. who would that be that shows man to himself? from a
      consciousness connected to Michael's Intelligence.
      >
      >
      > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      >
      >
      >
      > --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Kim kimgm@... wrote:
      > What is it then consisting of?
      > Kim
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold dottie_z@
      wrote:
      > >
      > > The lesser guardian of the Threshold is not an ahrimanic being. d
      > >
      > >
      > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Juan Revilla hylonome@ wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > If we adhere to the Genesis spirit, Lilith did not just "represent",
      she was an actual being. Adam did not need to be sexual in order to have
      "communion" or intercourse and beget with her[kim: What do you mean by
      intercourse and beget here? More than just words?].
      > > The images "intercourse" and "beget" can be used at many levels. I
      already commented to Dottie that I did not mean it necessarily in the
      physically sexual sense.
      > >
      > > In the case of Lilith specially, the relationship to sexuality is
      there from the start. After the division of the sexes she adhered to the
      darker "solitary" aspects of sexuality (e.g. incubi and succubi). This
      sexual connection I had not found so direct in Steiner's description of
      Ahriman's intrusion. Nevertheless we concur that Lilith is ahrimanic and
      I find it useful and clarifying to see Ahriman in Lilith as you advice.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > That tail is the Ahrimanic beings, the snake like elementals, the
      Arkons of the gnostic, the dark flyers of Castaneda or the shadows of
      Jung, or the lesser guardian of the threshold as described by Steiner.
      There is no need to make it more complicated than it is.
      > > To understand how this related to man's an earth's body in those
      epochs as described by Steiner is quite complicated, to imagine how this
      is in today's conditions is a lot simpler. Also: to understand
      anthroposophically how this is directly related to human physical
      sexuality, I personally find it obscure due to Steiner's
      (understandable) reluctance to speak of this in his lectures.
      > >
      > > Juan

      .


      __________________________________________________
      Bruger du Yahoo!?
      Er du træt af spam? Yahoo!Mail har den bedste spambeskyttelse, der findes
      http://dk.mail.yahoo.com
    • Mikko Nuuttila
      See also: Mothman Mikko ________________________________ From: Mikko Nuuttila To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed,
      Message 249 of 249 , Feb 14 3:34 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        See also: Mothman
        Mikko


        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 5:03:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         

        The lesser guardian is the Freudian Id, the censor (of subconsious urges, where the seeds of our karma lie. What is taken as the guardian (of knowledge) in Castaneda, is a moth that may appear gigantic to you, and it brings you dust of knowledge, amber hued particles, which I have managed to see twice. Last summer I caressed a moth on my finger, its hairy neck, and it eagerly drank the sweat from my finger. This went on for a long time. The moth is the night butterfly, butterfly being the Greek psyche and this the nightside of it. The Quran says Jesus will come back when people lie on the ground like night butterflies, and this is well what they do in Tensegrity seminars, Mexican Magical Passes lying on the ground to make the night butterfly moves.
        Mikko


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 4:52:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         

        Mikko there is one thing I have always kept very close to me as a danger noted by Rudolf Steiner: asking or seeking to understand more than what we have the capacity to understand in experience. As I have moved through this work many different things opened up before me and I became aware that I lacked courage to see or know these things from a human seeing point of view and therefore I stopped them from developing further until I had built courage and understanding to see or experience. Courage in me was lacking greatly in these things and its only been little by little I have been able to open up further to the path out of this lack of courage.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 8:06 AM



        According to Steiner, Mars corresponds to mineralization forces (and he also says we have to beware of the crystallizing element in our dreams (inorganics of Castaneda) and seek flowing qualities in dreaming instead. Mineralization forces bespeak scientific intellect. Aries which stands for Mars looks backwards and Steiner said something about it always looking to the past. I must say I am personally very interested in everything Steiner said is not good for us, I seek crystalline dreaming and he also said pranayama breathing exercises, the occult forces of breath are not for Westerners, but Holy Spirit is properly translated as Holy Breath from Greek (pneuma).


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 5:57:57 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         
        That's exactly what I need to look at: Edom and Eden...do you know there are a group called the Edomites and these are connected with Essau...many years ago I woke up from the dream world with the saying 'you are an ....ite' and I couldn't figure out what that was, was it Sodomite, which I was kind of appalled at, or, well so many other 'ites' and then my Rabbi pegged me for a 'Noahite' one after righteousness. ......... ......... .....one after righteousness. ......that' s connected to Melchizedek isn't it...well that's damn interesting. ....what was ....well, anyway, the point is that we need to understand clearly Edom and Eden and the 'Paradise' of Eden....that' s what we have to come to know..
         
        But you know what Mikko, the biggest thing I woke up with this morning is that I want to know, I'm  ready to know in courage, what and how the spirit is in this body...how does the etheric feel and what does it look like and how is it interpenetrating with the astral and how does the astral look like and what does it feel like and then how is this connected to the higher being of our I am...what does  that look like...I don't want these myths anymore right now....that' s enough. I'm ready.
         
        So this morning when I awake I have an experience of something that has plagued me since childhood... .and because of our studies here and our back and forth I had the thought 'it is a force within me' and I was able to subdue it. It immediately ceased. And I was kind of amazed and yet victorious in a little girl kinda way like 'whoa, that's all it took, I had to recognize it' and then...and this is where consciousness comes in 'I had a choice'. And I chose to get up out of bed. Not very miraculous to most but to me it was a clear moment a clear win.
         
        So, how do these forces move in us...can we experience them, can we catch them if you will....can we catch them. And then there is this climbing up the ladder...we do so also unconsciously but when we do consciously we are able to give something back to Michael...now I understand what Rudolf Steiner shares....now I understand how he says we have to give up to Michael and then he gives up further....it is our winning back from Lucifer, whom we bring with us, upward, and we win Lucifer back from Ahriman and Lilith...... that' s who we win Lucifer from..that's how Lucifer is redeemed.... he is redeemed when we consciously wake up within our ...when our thinking lights up and we catch the adversaries at work in our bodies and then we make a choice to do differently than  what our lower nature calls for, then we win something for the spiritual worlds....
         
        You know we can all talk about these things but until we truly have these experiences of spirit reality and we prepare ourselves for these spirit realities, kinda like preparing oneself for the transition to the heavenly worlds, and we are in it, until we truly have these experiences we can not lead others in truth only in theory....and that's okay but we do have to recognize it, we have to recognize and seek out spirit workings past our talkings and our knowings.... or we continue to slumber...may this be a year that we catch the adversary and take back up to Michael that which is his.
         
        Love,
        Dottie
         


         
        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 11:10 PM



        If Adam was the Garden and it means "red earth" was it Mars, as the Bible also talks about Edom (Mars) in a few highly interesting spots, and this is like ED.EN, also a Sumerian word (I think I am quoting Sitchin).
        Mikko


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 3:22:50 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         
        Kim, I was once one who said Ahriman had to be transformed and also Lilith, that is not my understanding now. Many have come at me for thinking so but that's not what changed my consideration, my consideration changed when considering the principle of the Beings.....
         
        I was sitting with Genesis today...funny how maturity just changes things...anyway I was thinking of how I could see it in a new way and I am kinda shocked at what I read today and the vision I have or the picture I have is of the Chariot, not a Tree, a Chariot and the four layers round and three down, fourth with the Ain Soph...and it is through this I want to  see as it seems to me that Adam is the garden, Adam is the garden Kim, not just the Tree, he is the garden is what is coming to me as I consider how to see this past the words and past the pictures already given to man....I have to find a new picture that is of Light and Love as that is what this is all transformed out of and back in to......so we need a three tiered chariot that has four sides around, almost like hte ones we see of Tibetan or Thailand stories....that' s probably the turtle everyone talks of that is carrying the world, ...and if we consider our lowest level is in this earthly...well, you know what, I don't even want to go there....its so easy to repeat things and Steiner students do that best just as the dogmatic christians do and that's why we dont' have any new image that is needed today....I cannot work with that any longer I can just tell something has just changed in me that is abhoring almost the old picture..... and the word play you and I do with this or that is funny but I appreciate it so much because at least we are seeking instead of repeating... .and we keep teaching ourselves something new out of our own seeking versus reading it and saying 'oh yes blah blah blah'.....
         
        Kim, we should really work, like in days of old with Pythagoras:) ))) we should alight upon it anew.....we have to sit with it anew....Light and Love....out of the past and into the future
         
        d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 10:31 AM



        Take a deep inbreath, and read it again:)

        > Steiner GA273 (from German):
        ---->That means my source is german.
        the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith.
        ---->Female for a man and male for a woman, always the opposite of the physical body.

        According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife
        ---->Lilith was mans first wife, estherbody+astral body
        ---->when she left man, it meant that physical body+ether body

        and mother of Lucifer
        ---->The astral is born out of the etheric.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        ---->In the same way as we have purified the luciferic spirits we shall purify the Ahrimanic, there is a reason Christ looks with love at Ahriman in the sculpture. No being is lost forever. These beings where created at the old Sun and they are at home on Mars. Steiner told of a mission on Mars, remember.

        If you cant accept that Steiner says that Ahrimanian beings are elementals, you don't get any real understanding of the Ahrimanian seen as beings, and that nots necessary, but many questions are not possible to answer without that understanding.
        Kim

        --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold <dottie_z@... .> wrote:
        >
        > Steiner GA273 (from German): ...the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith. That leads up to times where the man was not at all constituted so. According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife and mother of Lucifer.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        > Kim
        >  
        > Kim, what is the rest of that text saying? Is it in English? ...I need the rest of that text to understand a thing. How can Adam and Lilith be the mother of Lucifer....somethin g is missing here... something is amiss here....something is....okay this just pulls me into Steiner's work past the Christologies which I have not studied well enough to know what is up with this picture above....and I can't hold the idea that we are transforming the spirit beings themselves, the ahrimanic spirit beings themselves, versus the places where they have successfully manipulated my own being, which are in me and are of me, separate from them....although they twist so well to be so emeshed that man has to force them out of his own being...its different with the elemental beings where these are transformed through our own actions, these are the helpers of man....i can't recognize them in what you have offered in relations to 'archons' and such or I seem to have a negative
        > view of the words as 'shadows' etc......the elementals are not shadows, they are beings intimately and goodly connected with man's own transformation. ....whereas the ahrimanic beings serve as a challenge to man......
        >  
        > I once was thinking kindly on the ahrimanic beings in the sense that they too will be transformed but the more I understand how they are repelled by the very thing we are creating, Love, I understand that this is not their task, their task is not our own, they were allowed to enter in as we had already gone down a road that necessitated our need of their energies to get us back on track towards the I Am and what the cosmic world was creating before we took a left turn so to speak.
        >  
        > I don't think its just women as is being noted here in regards to understanding Lilith, rather I think it is speaking to the collective unconscious that understands a dogma has been placed not only on religious/spiritual matters but also on the male/female element in our world.....any group that is being oppressed is going to seek to find ways to show what is inherently true within and usually they have to skirt to the outside of the norm in myth and legend to do so. But mostly it is a misunderstanding of Sophia in her fallen stage as a being of Wisdom, and Lilith, not of this worldly state of affairs....I was one of those who fought to understand the difference between the two as I could only see them as the same story when they are not.
        >  
        > I am just shocked to hear something such as Lilith is the mother of Lucifer and Adam is the father.....if I have to consider this further I can only think that .....I don't think Lilith can be a part of this world....she can not be within Adam as in his purity....she has to be outside it, he has to meet it....she is under him and then flies up......she has to enter into him from below, in order to enter into man......okay, I'm going to exit these conversations and get into Genesis and the legends with the Rabbis...... and check some satanist views....
        >  
        > Thanks,
        > Dottie
        >
        >
        >
        > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Juan Revilla hylonome@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Juan Revilla hylonome@...
        > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Steiner GA273 (from German): ...the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith. That leads up to times where the man was not at all constituted so.. According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife and mother of Lucifer.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        > Kim
        > Makes a lot of sense, thanks.
        >
        > I would note that from this perspective the etheric body is more properly called "Isha", Lilith being the ahrimanized or sub-physical part (the counter- or "anti-" part --what some theosophist think is the etheric body). A lot of confusion or ambivalence regarding the nature of Lilith is created by giving to her the higher qualities that correspond to Isha... at least this is what I feel happens very often specially among "new age" women. I think "Isha" is the higher ethers (the Tree of Life) above the warmth ether (the ring of fire), which you already quoted Steiner suggesting that it became Krishna and later Nathan Jesus.
        >
        > .... the pre-christian or non-christianized side of Isha being its luciferic aspect or the "twin soul" of man and woman in the ordinary sense.
        >
        > Juan
        >













      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.