Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

Expand Messages
  • Mikko Nuuttila
    Kim, may I publish this text on the Tango yahoogroups list saying it is from you? Mikko ________________________________ From: Kim Graae Munch
    Message 1 of 249 , Feb 1, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Kim, may I publish this text on the Tango yahoogroups list saying it is from you?
      Mikko


      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, February 2, 2010 8:29:06 AM
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

       

      Dottie, it was in the reference:
      Gnostic writings contain descriptions of alien predators called Archons, Arkontai in Greek. The texts from Nag Hammadi describe them as heavy, elusive, shadowy creatures. The most common name for them is “beings of the likeness, shadow-creatures.” Could the Archons be compared to the “mud shadows” described by don Juan? This question raises the general issue of parallels between don Juan’s Central American Toltec shamanism and the shamanism of the Mystery Schools of ancient Europe. Let’s consider some of these parallels.

      First, there is the matter of the influence of the predators or flyers on humanity. In The Active Side of Infinity, Don Juan tells Castaneda that “the predators give us their mind, which becomes our mind.” This alarming statement suggests an immediate parallel to Gnostic teachings. Gnostics, who directed the Mystery Schools of the Near East in antiquity, taught that the true mind of human beings, nous authenticos, is part of the cosmic intelligence that pervades nature, but due to the intrusion of the Archons, this “native mind” or "native genius" can be subverted and even occupied by another mind. They warned that the Archons invade the human psyche, they intrude mentally and psychologically, although they may also confront us physically as well. Their main impact, however, is in our mental syntax, in our paradigms and beliefs, exactly as don Juan says of the flyers.

      Don Juan tells Castaneda that the predator’s mind is “a cheap model: economy strength, one size fits all.” This description fits the hive-mentality of the Archons. Sorcerers call this uniform alien mind “the foreign installation, which exists in you and in every other human being.” The foreign installation (italicized by Castaneda) pulls us out of our syntax. It deranges our indigenous abilities to organize the world according to the language proper to our species. The role of correct syntax in the sorcerer’s mastery of intent is one of the central factors in the later teachings of Don Juan. The sorcerer's concern for deviation of syntax, and consequent derouting of intent, parallels the importance of language and correct definition emphasized in Gnostic teaching.

      Don Juan makes a number of statements pertinent to strategies against alien intrusion. He says that the sorcerers of ancient times “found out that if they taxed the flyers’ mind with inner silence, the foreign installation would flee, giving to any one of the practitioners involved in this maneouver the total certainty of the mind’s foreign origin.” In other words, the realization that another mind can operate in our minds only becomes fully clear and certain when the foreign mind has been exposed and expelled. Only then do we understand how “the real mind that belongs to us, the sum total of our experience, after a lifetime of domination has been rendered shy, insecure and shifty.” The “real mind” of Castaneda can be equated to the nous authenticos of the Gnostics. The main effect of the flyers upon our mind is seen in mental conditioning, brainwashing. This is also the main effect of Archontic intrusion.


      Psychic Self-Defence

      Gnostic texts describe direct, physical confrontations with Archons of two kinds, an embryonic or foetal type—hence, the Greys of modern UFO lore—and a reptilian type. The usual tactic of the Greys is first to stun and then infiltrate the mind of the human subject. In the First Apocalypse of James, the Gnostic master instructs a student in how to confront the Archons. These predatory entities are said to “abduct souls by night,” a precise description of modern ET abductions. The adept in the Mysteries learns to repel the Archons with magical formulas (mantras) and magical passes or gestures of power (mudras). In some texts, the encounter with the Archons is structured according to the system of “planetary spheres.” The adept who practices astral projection, lucid dreaming or “manipulations of the double” (as in Castaneda) is said to face the Archons in a kind of computer-game maze of seven levels, corresponding to the seven planets. At each level, the adept is unable to continue unless he confronts the “gatekeepers,” using magical passes and words.

      For more on confronting Archons, see A Gnostic Catechism.

      The archetypal format of the “journey through the planetary spheres” was well-known in antiquity, particularly in schools of Hermetics and Kaballa. In Tantra Vidya, O. M. Hinze compares the Gnostic ascent through the seven spheres with the raising of kundalini through the seven chakras in Indian yogic traditions. Don Juan does not use the seven-level scheme, but his description of the flyers can be fitted into that scheme. The correlation works especially well if we equate the “serpent worship” of certain Gnostic cults with Kundalini yoga practice, which may in turn be equated with "the fire from within” and the Plumed Serpent in several Castaneda books. In short, the Toltec sorcerers would also have been adepts of Kundalini yoga, cultivating “the fire from within.” Their encounters with the flyers might not have been formalized into a seven-level test-game, but the same experiences are indicated in all three instances: Toltec, yogic, and Gnostic.
      Gnostics believed that the force of Kundalini, or the ambient field generated by that force, served as protection from the Archons.

      On the use of Kundalini to repel alien intrusion, see Kundalini and the Alien Force.

      The human character-traits attributed by don Juan to deviation by the foreign installation are identical to those ascribed to the Archons in Gnostic writings: envy (covetousness) and arrogance (egomania) are said to be their primary features, while their behaviour demonstrates that they are mindless drones (routinary), greedy for power over us and too cowardly to come out in the open and reveal themselves.

      It would be misleading to make Don Juan’s revelations comply in a strict and literal way with Gnostic teachings, but these initial parallels are striking, and there is much more. Here is an outstanding instance where indigenous wisdom from the Americas tallies with the esoteric teachings of a long-lost spiritual tradition in the Near East. The Toltec-Gnostic parallel may seem remote and improbable at first sight. But if we assume that shamanic experience is consistent and empirical (i.e., it can be tested by experience), it would not be surprising to find consistent reports in widely separate traditions.

      The Foreign Installation

      The idea of a foreign installation is extremely instructive. It immediately recalls metallic or crystalline implants said to be used by the Greys (and their human accomplices) to track human subjects. In another, less technological sense, it suggests an ideological virus implanted in our minds by non-human entities. According to the Gnostic critique of Christianity, salvationist ideology in its Judeo-Christian form (i.e., belief in a divine redeemer and a final apocalypse) is just such a virus. It is something implanted in the human mind by alien forces. The Gnostic emphasis on Judeo-Christianity (which can now be extended to Islam) gives a strategic advantage in the detection of alien influences, because the patriarchal/ Salvationist religions have dominated the historical narrative on our planet. This dominance is symptomatic of Archontic deviance, Gnostics said.

      The alien mind penetrates into our story-telling activity, the narrative power so crucial for humanity to make its way in the cosmos. This is one of the ways, or the most effective way, that we are deviated from our proper course of evolution. For the human species, the capacity to achieve intent depends on developing plots, stories, narratives that can guide us from initial conception to final goal.

      Human purpose is manifold, and so the manner in which we are being deviated is likely to be multifarious. In the immense complexity of intrusion, clarity and concentration are indispensible assets. In a startling remark, Don Juan asserts that “the flyers’ mind has no concentration whatsoever.” This remark recalls the Gnostic assertion that the Archons have no ennoia, no will of their own, no intentionality. Concentration might be defined as the coordination of attention and intention. To concentrate is to bring a certain depth of attention (Bythos) to intent (Ennoia). In Gnostic teachings, Bythos and Ennoia are cosmic deities or principles of the Pleroma, the Wholeness, and they are also attributes of the human mind. They are symbolized as two spheres. To concentrate is to bring the two spheres together at a single, unifying point, a common center. We do this constantly when we focus our attention upon a certain intention or goal, but the Archons are incapable of anything like this because they have “no concentration whatsoever.” They have no concentrating power, no innate faculty that would unite intention with attention. Human resistence to their intrusion depends on inner composure and mental discipline, the sobriety of the warrior. Don Juan’s counsels on the warrior’s tests with the flyers seem to present a Toltec version of Gnostic strategies for resisting the Archons.

      Common Points

      Upon close examination, the teachings of Don Juan, developed in nine books by Carlos Castaneda from 1968 to 1998, contain numerous distinct parallels with Gnostic instruction. The new sorcery introduced by Castaneda is an extension and make-over of traditional knowledge of the “old seers” of the Toltec tradition of ancient Mexico. It differs from the old sorcery largely in its lack of concern for intricate power-games, feuds, sinister pacts with non-human powers, and control over others. Its aim is freedom for the spiritual warrior, rather than control over anyone or anything. Both in Toltec and Gnostic terms, the ultimate liberation for humanity may come through facing the alien predators. They are not here to advance or assist us, but in confronting and overcoming them we may gain a vital boost toward another level of consciousness. Some points of commonality between Gnosticism and the Toltec-derived neo-shamanism of Castaneda are:

      1, the Toltec exposure of an alien mind or foreign installation that makes us less and other than we humanly are: comparable to the Gnostic idea of a dehumanizing ideological virus implanted in our minds by the Alien/Archons.

      2, the importance for the sorcerer of mastering intent: comparable to Gnostic emphasis on ennoia, intentionality, which aligns us with the Gods and elevates us above the Archons.

      3, Castaneda’s emphasis on syntax (correct attributions, and the use of mental command signals for directing intent): comparable to Gnostic teaching on ennoia, mental clarity, and correct attribution ( right use of definitions) .

      4, the Toltec assertion that predation is “the topic of topics”: comparable to the Gnostic emphasis on the intrusion of the Archons. Facing intrusion is essential, because if we cannot see how we are deviated, we cannot find our true path in the cosmos.

      5, the work with lucid dreaming, astral travel, projection of the double, in Gnostic circles and the Mystery Schools: comparable to many episodes in Castaneda.

      6, the Toltec model of great bands of emanations that pervade the universe: comparable to the emanations or streamings from the Pleroma described in Mystery School revelation texts.

      7, the Toltec distinction between organic and inorganic beings: comparable to the distinction between humans and Archons in Gnostic cosmology.

      8, the Toltec exploration of other worlds and dimensions through the practice of non-ordinary awareness: comparable to age-old shamanic practices of the Mystery Schools.

      9, Don Juan’s description of the “luminous egg”: comparable to the oval of clear light in Gnostic revelation texts and the augoeides or "auric egg" of the Mysteries.

      10, the Toltec figure of the Eagle, a primary metaphor in Castaneda: comparable to the same figure in the Nag Hammadi Codices where the instructing voice of sacred mind, perhaps equivalent to Castaneda’s “voice of seeing,” states: “I appeared in the form of an Eagle on the Tree of Knowledge, the primal knowing that arises in the pure light, that I might teach them and awaken them out of the depth of sleep” (The Apocryphon of John, 23.25-30).

      11, the organization of the sorcerer’s party into eight pairs of male and female sorcerers: comparable to the organization of the Mystery cells into sixteen members, eight of each sex. (Artifactual evidence: Orphic Serpent bowl, and Pietroasa bowl. See A Sheaf of Cut Wheat)

      12, the cultivation of the fire from within, Kundalini, or the Plumed Serpent of the Toltecs: comparable to the Winged Serpent and divine Instructor of the Gnostics.

      13, the mechanism of the assemblage point.

      It would take an entire book to develop these parallels at length. Three factors out of the ten are of particular importance. These factors are the luminous egg, the great bands of emanations, and the role of certain inorganic beings as allies.


      The Assemblage Point

      Among the many strange features in the teachings of don Juan, the matter of the assemblage point is certainly one of the most baffling. In several books we are told that the luminous egg surrounding a human being is attached to the physical body by an odd mechanism called the assemblage point. The location of the point is high behind the right shoulder. Apparently, at that point in the body, the luminous egg exerts a kind of pressure, forming a dimple or depression. As long as the force of the egg stays in the dimple, the assemblage point is stable and the human being perceives reality in a predetermined way. By shifting the assemblage point, sorcerers are able to change their perception of reality, or actually deconstruct and reconstruct reality at will.

      Don Juan’s instructions regarding the assemblage point are as baffling as they are fascinating, and far from clear. The dynamics of sliding or shifting the mechanism are difficult to understand, and even harder to visualize. Moreover, it seems that the assemblage point is a weird item, not comparable to anything found in any other sources.

      There is, however, a rare piece of testimony from the Mysteries that describes the assemblage point in exactly the manner found in Castaneda.

      In The Subtle Body in Western Tradition, Gnostic scholar G. R. S. Mead cites the lost writings of Isadorus, the husband of Hypatia and one of the last Gnostics who taught at the Mystery School (the Museum) in Alexandria. Isadorus’ original work is lost, but it was paraphrased by another writer, Damascius, so a few faint indications of his teachings can be surmised. Isadorus is said to have described the augoeides, “golden aura,” comparable to the luminous egg of Castandea. The nature and operation of the augoiedes, also called the auric egg, was one of the deepest secrets of the Mysteries. Apparently, a lost treatise of Isadorus stated that the augoeides surrounds the human being like an oval membrane, in such a way that the physical body floats in the oval. This is precisely how Castaneda describes the luminous egg. The Gnostic teacher also said that the luminous oval is connected or locked into the physical body at a point in the back, high up on the right shoulder blade.

      Thus, one of the weirdest details in Castaneda’s writings is confirmed by a teacher of the Mysteries who lived in Alexandria the 5th century CE.

      A Cosmic Test

      In the classical scheme of the planetary system, there are seven planets, not including the earth: sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn. (The sun is not of course a planet, but a star, the central body of the planetary system, and the moon is a satellite of the earth. In some ancient systems, these two bodies are excluded from the seven and replaced by the lunar nodes.) This situation recalls Castaneda’s description of the organic and inorganic structure of the "great bands of emanation” that compose the universe. If we set the earth apart from the other planets, the “seven inorganic bands” could well be correlated to the “seven planets,” known to be realms that do not support organic life as the Earth does. Gnostics taught that the earth does not belong to the planetary system, but is merely captured in it. They called the planetary system apart from earth the Hebdomad , the Sevenfold. This terminology may be compared to the Gnostic description of the realm of the Archons, who are inorganic beings. The “seven inorganic bands” in Castaneda’s scheme may be different language for the same model.

      Gnostic seers located the habitat of the predatory Archons in the planetary system, exclusive of the Earth. The Archontic realm would then be assembled from the seven inorganic bands. Within the domain so assembled, the Archons would be on their own “turf.” Their presence in the world assembled around us, the biosphere ruled by the laws of organic chemistry, would be an intrusion. Nowhere does Castaneda indicate that the predatory entities come from these seven bands, but the conclusion is obvious. He does say explicitly that the flyers are inorganic beings, so the conclusion is not only obvious but consistent with his syntax, his system of description.

      Don Juan specifies that sorcerers can and usually do initiate contact with inorganic beings. They do this by shifting the assemblage point and crossing into the unknown territory of other bands, or sliding into unknown regions of our own band. A great deal of the activity described in Castaneda’s work consists of forays into the other worlds contingent to ours. “Once the barrier is broken, inorganic beings change and become what seers call allies.” These allies can be deviating or even deadly, but mastering them is one of the primary tasks of the new sorcery. There are numerous allies in the cosmos at large. According to many indigenous traditions, earth is visited by many kinds of other-dimensional beings who serve as allies and guides to humanity. The dark, shadowy predator would seem to be a unique category of inorganic beings who is perhaps not an ally at all, or else a particularly difficult ally to master.

      Don Juan stressed the need to confront this inorganic being to experience “the total certainty of the mind’s foreign origin.” The “predator that came from the depths of the cosmos and took over the rule of our lives” may certainly be equated to the Archons of Gnostic teachings. Don Juan describes Alien intrusion and its main consequence, behavioural modification, in a most vivid manner. The old sorcerer also makes a striking comment on what might be gained from our encounter with these entities. “The flyers are an essential part of the universe… and they must be taken as what they really are — awesome, monstrous. They are the means by which the universe tests us.”

      The parallels between Gnostic materials and the new Toltec sorcery of Carlos Castaneda are striking and present sobering insights on the human condition, if nothing else. What can we do about the topic of topics, predation? “All we can do is discipline ourselves to the point where they will not touch us,” Don Juan advises. Significantly, he says will not, not can not. He also says that the alien predators are the way the universe tests us, as just noted. It follows that the intent to arrange our minds and lives so that the flyers/Archons are not willing to intrude on us is the capital exercise, the primary test in progress for humanity.


      Kim



      --- Den tirs 2/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

      Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Emne: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Dato: tirsdag 2. februar 2010 02.32

       

      Kim, why do you say archons are elementals.. ...that's strange to me....where does this connection come from, what is it about archons that are connected as elemental beings? d

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 12:36 PM



      I think this is the negative Elementals, Ahrimanian beings, what is mentioned in "The Real Devil" and in Gnostics as Archon or Predators or flyers.
       
      I have made this entry in Facebook:

      This interesting comparison between Gnosticism and the esoteric of Carlos Castaneda are quite illuminating on both subjects, and especially about Elementals which the gnostics calls Archons and Castaneda calls Predators or Flyers, and the descriptions matches the description of the negative Elementals of Kastalos and the Ahrimanic spirits of Rudolf Steiner.
      Castaneda: 

      We have a predator that came from the depths of the cosmos and took over the rule of our lives. Human beings are its prisoners. The predator is our lord and master. It has rendered us docile, helpless. If we want to protest, it suppresses our protest. If we want to act independently, it demands that we don’t do so... Sorcerers believe that the predators have given us our systems of beliefs, our ideas of good and evil, our social mores. They are the ones who set up our hopes and expectations and dreams of success or failure. They have given us covetousness, greed and cowardice. It is the predators who make us complacent, routinary and egomaniacal.

      Kim
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
      Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 4:48 PM
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

       
      In John we have this:
       
      John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it”.
       
      In Mathew we have this:
       
      MT 12:33 "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
      MT 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 1:09 AM



      Where does Jesus state specifically "be not like your father the Serpent". Is it in the apocryphal texts? In the gospels, he says just that be wise as the Serpent.


      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 8:43:48 PM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

       
      Okay, spefically we can look to Christ Jesus' word regarding 'be not like your father the Serpent'.... okay, we can see that the reason Christ Jesus can say that is because Jesus was able to rise....as his bodies were able to be purifed...and Zarathustra was able to support that as it was his ......oh see here is the problem if we do not get clear on these biographies from an experiential understanding:
       
      Zarathustra
      John the Baptist
      Lazarus
       
      Jesus
      Enoch
      Adam
       
      Eve
      Mary of Nathan
      Mary of Luke
       
      Joseph of both
       
      Right so the question for me is always these interpenetrations that are so difficult to get clear in the thinking out of experience not out of someone elses' words.....or thoughts.... .Philosophy of Freedom is working with the beings out of our progressing thinking
       
      For why would it be okay for Zarathustra to meld into Jesus.....in the manner that occurred.... for they are one, right? But then what do with this sister soul with John the Baptist...see it is too difficult really to meet in the higher worlds this sort of creation history....because the Fifth Gospel is magic really....the Fifth Gospel leads to a higher thinking that we have to meet but out of our own thinking not from Steiner's words....or nothing has changed within us.....
       
      alright im outa here, d
       


       
      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sun, 1/31/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 10:35 AM



      Was Lucifer the Tree of Life?

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sun, 1/31/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 10:21 AM



      Right, and if we look at who and what is the snake, and what it represents what do we arrive at? If we consider Rudolf Steiner's Theosophia we can consider ourselves at plant like in its purity and what we are returning to in a way...so what is the earth, and what was it before....was it Lucifer and then out of Lucifer comes the Tree of Life which in its purity was the Adam and Eve which out of this came the experience of desire which, like our eyes were built from out of the water and the sun burning down upon them, was the penis built out of the desire that was in the tree, in Lucifer? I mean I know these terms are physical but we are ultimately I guess looking at the Tree of Life within and of itself in a way and from there what was born out of It.
       
      So the penis is born and formed out of desire and it was down by the trunk, below the Tree itself...that' s how I saw it in the elementals world, well in a cemented bathroom stall really:))) sorry they are always coming to life for me and I just note them but this one I wanted to share to work upon with others for further understanding. ....
       
      d

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sat, 1/30/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Saturday, January 30, 2010, 11:06 PM



      The Mayans believe that the perfect man and the perfect woman are born from out of the serpent's mouth. Kind of like the reverse of the Adamic tradition.
      Mikko


      From: val2160 <wdenval@aol. com>
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 7:38:55 AM
      Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

       
      http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Vision_Serpent

      http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Bloodletting_ in_Mesoamerica

      --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold
      <dottie_z@.. .> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hey Friends,
      >
      > So, I had cause to wonder from the elementals this morning about the
      snake and the penis. I saw an image out of which I could see the snake
      in the penis, following the same form. And this had me consider the
      reference in the bible about the snake and the heel...and so I offer it
      below as it seems to me that in mystery language the feet, as
      understood by some, represents the sexual organ. This is how many claim
      that there was a sexual relationship between the Magdalene and Jesus as
      she is always at the feet. The Jews recognize this as a sexual
      representation.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done
      this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the
      field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the
      days of thy life:
      >
      >
      > 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between
      thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise
      his heel.
      >
      >
      > 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and
      thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy
      desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
      >
      >
      > 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the
      voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded
      thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy
      sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"
      >
      > But an interesting thing is 3:15
      >
      > 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between
      thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise
      his heel.
      >
      > It seems to me that...well, why does it say 'it shall bruise thy head,
      and thou shalt bruise his heel' ? I mean God is speaking to the snake
      here so why 'it' and then why 'his' as later on he addresses the woman
      and then also Adam...
      >
      > In any case I think we can see how that snake that eats its tail has
      to do somewhat with this legend as well as Lucifer rising in a way and
      this might be also what the phallus symbols are speaking to across the
      line....Lucifer rising, man rising to his birthright, ongoing working
      towards healing the Fall.
      >
      > All good things,
      > Dottie
      >
      >
      > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      >



















      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
      Bruger du Yahoo!?
      Er du træt af spam? Yahoo!Mail har den bedste spambeskyttelse, der findes
      http://dk.mail. yahoo.com


    • Mikko Nuuttila
      See also: Mothman Mikko ________________________________ From: Mikko Nuuttila To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed,
      Message 249 of 249 , Feb 14, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        See also: Mothman
        Mikko


        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 5:03:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         

        The lesser guardian is the Freudian Id, the censor (of subconsious urges, where the seeds of our karma lie. What is taken as the guardian (of knowledge) in Castaneda, is a moth that may appear gigantic to you, and it brings you dust of knowledge, amber hued particles, which I have managed to see twice. Last summer I caressed a moth on my finger, its hairy neck, and it eagerly drank the sweat from my finger. This went on for a long time. The moth is the night butterfly, butterfly being the Greek psyche and this the nightside of it. The Quran says Jesus will come back when people lie on the ground like night butterflies, and this is well what they do in Tensegrity seminars, Mexican Magical Passes lying on the ground to make the night butterfly moves.
        Mikko


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 4:52:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         

        Mikko there is one thing I have always kept very close to me as a danger noted by Rudolf Steiner: asking or seeking to understand more than what we have the capacity to understand in experience. As I have moved through this work many different things opened up before me and I became aware that I lacked courage to see or know these things from a human seeing point of view and therefore I stopped them from developing further until I had built courage and understanding to see or experience. Courage in me was lacking greatly in these things and its only been little by little I have been able to open up further to the path out of this lack of courage.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 8:06 AM



        According to Steiner, Mars corresponds to mineralization forces (and he also says we have to beware of the crystallizing element in our dreams (inorganics of Castaneda) and seek flowing qualities in dreaming instead. Mineralization forces bespeak scientific intellect. Aries which stands for Mars looks backwards and Steiner said something about it always looking to the past. I must say I am personally very interested in everything Steiner said is not good for us, I seek crystalline dreaming and he also said pranayama breathing exercises, the occult forces of breath are not for Westerners, but Holy Spirit is properly translated as Holy Breath from Greek (pneuma).


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 5:57:57 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         
        That's exactly what I need to look at: Edom and Eden...do you know there are a group called the Edomites and these are connected with Essau...many years ago I woke up from the dream world with the saying 'you are an ....ite' and I couldn't figure out what that was, was it Sodomite, which I was kind of appalled at, or, well so many other 'ites' and then my Rabbi pegged me for a 'Noahite' one after righteousness. ......... ......... .....one after righteousness. ......that' s connected to Melchizedek isn't it...well that's damn interesting. ....what was ....well, anyway, the point is that we need to understand clearly Edom and Eden and the 'Paradise' of Eden....that' s what we have to come to know..
         
        But you know what Mikko, the biggest thing I woke up with this morning is that I want to know, I'm  ready to know in courage, what and how the spirit is in this body...how does the etheric feel and what does it look like and how is it interpenetrating with the astral and how does the astral look like and what does it feel like and then how is this connected to the higher being of our I am...what does  that look like...I don't want these myths anymore right now....that' s enough. I'm ready.
         
        So this morning when I awake I have an experience of something that has plagued me since childhood... .and because of our studies here and our back and forth I had the thought 'it is a force within me' and I was able to subdue it. It immediately ceased. And I was kind of amazed and yet victorious in a little girl kinda way like 'whoa, that's all it took, I had to recognize it' and then...and this is where consciousness comes in 'I had a choice'. And I chose to get up out of bed. Not very miraculous to most but to me it was a clear moment a clear win.
         
        So, how do these forces move in us...can we experience them, can we catch them if you will....can we catch them. And then there is this climbing up the ladder...we do so also unconsciously but when we do consciously we are able to give something back to Michael...now I understand what Rudolf Steiner shares....now I understand how he says we have to give up to Michael and then he gives up further....it is our winning back from Lucifer, whom we bring with us, upward, and we win Lucifer back from Ahriman and Lilith...... that' s who we win Lucifer from..that's how Lucifer is redeemed.... he is redeemed when we consciously wake up within our ...when our thinking lights up and we catch the adversaries at work in our bodies and then we make a choice to do differently than  what our lower nature calls for, then we win something for the spiritual worlds....
         
        You know we can all talk about these things but until we truly have these experiences of spirit reality and we prepare ourselves for these spirit realities, kinda like preparing oneself for the transition to the heavenly worlds, and we are in it, until we truly have these experiences we can not lead others in truth only in theory....and that's okay but we do have to recognize it, we have to recognize and seek out spirit workings past our talkings and our knowings.... or we continue to slumber...may this be a year that we catch the adversary and take back up to Michael that which is his.
         
        Love,
        Dottie
         


         
        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 11:10 PM



        If Adam was the Garden and it means "red earth" was it Mars, as the Bible also talks about Edom (Mars) in a few highly interesting spots, and this is like ED.EN, also a Sumerian word (I think I am quoting Sitchin).
        Mikko


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 3:22:50 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         
        Kim, I was once one who said Ahriman had to be transformed and also Lilith, that is not my understanding now. Many have come at me for thinking so but that's not what changed my consideration, my consideration changed when considering the principle of the Beings.....
         
        I was sitting with Genesis today...funny how maturity just changes things...anyway I was thinking of how I could see it in a new way and I am kinda shocked at what I read today and the vision I have or the picture I have is of the Chariot, not a Tree, a Chariot and the four layers round and three down, fourth with the Ain Soph...and it is through this I want to  see as it seems to me that Adam is the garden, Adam is the garden Kim, not just the Tree, he is the garden is what is coming to me as I consider how to see this past the words and past the pictures already given to man....I have to find a new picture that is of Light and Love as that is what this is all transformed out of and back in to......so we need a three tiered chariot that has four sides around, almost like hte ones we see of Tibetan or Thailand stories....that' s probably the turtle everyone talks of that is carrying the world, ...and if we consider our lowest level is in this earthly...well, you know what, I don't even want to go there....its so easy to repeat things and Steiner students do that best just as the dogmatic christians do and that's why we dont' have any new image that is needed today....I cannot work with that any longer I can just tell something has just changed in me that is abhoring almost the old picture..... and the word play you and I do with this or that is funny but I appreciate it so much because at least we are seeking instead of repeating... .and we keep teaching ourselves something new out of our own seeking versus reading it and saying 'oh yes blah blah blah'.....
         
        Kim, we should really work, like in days of old with Pythagoras:) ))) we should alight upon it anew.....we have to sit with it anew....Light and Love....out of the past and into the future
         
        d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 10:31 AM



        Take a deep inbreath, and read it again:)

        > Steiner GA273 (from German):
        ---->That means my source is german.
        the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith.
        ---->Female for a man and male for a woman, always the opposite of the physical body.

        According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife
        ---->Lilith was mans first wife, estherbody+astral body
        ---->when she left man, it meant that physical body+ether body

        and mother of Lucifer
        ---->The astral is born out of the etheric.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        ---->In the same way as we have purified the luciferic spirits we shall purify the Ahrimanic, there is a reason Christ looks with love at Ahriman in the sculpture. No being is lost forever. These beings where created at the old Sun and they are at home on Mars. Steiner told of a mission on Mars, remember.

        If you cant accept that Steiner says that Ahrimanian beings are elementals, you don't get any real understanding of the Ahrimanian seen as beings, and that nots necessary, but many questions are not possible to answer without that understanding.
        Kim

        --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold <dottie_z@... .> wrote:
        >
        > Steiner GA273 (from German): ...the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith. That leads up to times where the man was not at all constituted so. According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife and mother of Lucifer.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        > Kim
        >  
        > Kim, what is the rest of that text saying? Is it in English? ...I need the rest of that text to understand a thing. How can Adam and Lilith be the mother of Lucifer....somethin g is missing here... something is amiss here....something is....okay this just pulls me into Steiner's work past the Christologies which I have not studied well enough to know what is up with this picture above....and I can't hold the idea that we are transforming the spirit beings themselves, the ahrimanic spirit beings themselves, versus the places where they have successfully manipulated my own being, which are in me and are of me, separate from them....although they twist so well to be so emeshed that man has to force them out of his own being...its different with the elemental beings where these are transformed through our own actions, these are the helpers of man....i can't recognize them in what you have offered in relations to 'archons' and such or I seem to have a negative
        > view of the words as 'shadows' etc......the elementals are not shadows, they are beings intimately and goodly connected with man's own transformation. ....whereas the ahrimanic beings serve as a challenge to man......
        >  
        > I once was thinking kindly on the ahrimanic beings in the sense that they too will be transformed but the more I understand how they are repelled by the very thing we are creating, Love, I understand that this is not their task, their task is not our own, they were allowed to enter in as we had already gone down a road that necessitated our need of their energies to get us back on track towards the I Am and what the cosmic world was creating before we took a left turn so to speak.
        >  
        > I don't think its just women as is being noted here in regards to understanding Lilith, rather I think it is speaking to the collective unconscious that understands a dogma has been placed not only on religious/spiritual matters but also on the male/female element in our world.....any group that is being oppressed is going to seek to find ways to show what is inherently true within and usually they have to skirt to the outside of the norm in myth and legend to do so. But mostly it is a misunderstanding of Sophia in her fallen stage as a being of Wisdom, and Lilith, not of this worldly state of affairs....I was one of those who fought to understand the difference between the two as I could only see them as the same story when they are not.
        >  
        > I am just shocked to hear something such as Lilith is the mother of Lucifer and Adam is the father.....if I have to consider this further I can only think that .....I don't think Lilith can be a part of this world....she can not be within Adam as in his purity....she has to be outside it, he has to meet it....she is under him and then flies up......she has to enter into him from below, in order to enter into man......okay, I'm going to exit these conversations and get into Genesis and the legends with the Rabbis...... and check some satanist views....
        >  
        > Thanks,
        > Dottie
        >
        >
        >
        > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Juan Revilla hylonome@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Juan Revilla hylonome@...
        > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Steiner GA273 (from German): ...the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith. That leads up to times where the man was not at all constituted so.. According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife and mother of Lucifer.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        > Kim
        > Makes a lot of sense, thanks.
        >
        > I would note that from this perspective the etheric body is more properly called "Isha", Lilith being the ahrimanized or sub-physical part (the counter- or "anti-" part --what some theosophist think is the etheric body). A lot of confusion or ambivalence regarding the nature of Lilith is created by giving to her the higher qualities that correspond to Isha... at least this is what I feel happens very often specially among "new age" women. I think "Isha" is the higher ethers (the Tree of Life) above the warmth ether (the ring of fire), which you already quoted Steiner suggesting that it became Krishna and later Nathan Jesus.
        >
        > .... the pre-christian or non-christianized side of Isha being its luciferic aspect or the "twin soul" of man and woman in the ordinary sense.
        >
        > Juan
        >













      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.