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RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

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  • Kim Graae Munch
    I think this is the negative Elementals, Ahrimanian beings, what is mentioned in The Real
    Message 1 of 249 , Feb 1, 2010
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      I think this is the negative Elementals, Ahrimanian beings, what is mentioned in "The Real Devil" and in Gnostics as Archon or Predators or flyers.
       
      I have made this entry in Facebook:

      This interesting comparison between Gnosticism and the esoteric of Carlos Castaneda are quite illuminating on both subjects, and especially about Elementals which the gnostics calls Archons and Castaneda calls Predators or Flyers, and the descriptions matches the description of the negative Elementals of Kastalos and the Ahrimanic spirits of Rudolf Steiner.
      Castaneda: 

      We have a predator that came from the depths of the cosmos and took over the rule of our lives. Human beings are its prisoners. The predator is our lord and master. It has rendered us docile, helpless. If we want to protest, it suppresses our protest. If we want to act independently, it demands that we don’t do so... Sorcerers believe that the predators have given us our systems of beliefs, our ideas of good and evil, our social mores. They are the ones who set up our hopes and expectations and dreams of success or failure. They have given us covetousness, greed and cowardice. It is the predators who make us complacent, routinary and egomaniacal.

      Kim
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
      Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 4:48 PM
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

       

      In John we have this:
       
      John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it”.
       
      In Mathew we have this:
       
      MT 12:33 "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
      MT 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 1:09 AM



      Where does Jesus state specifically "be not like your father the Serpent". Is it in the apocryphal texts? In the gospels, he says just that be wise as the Serpent.


      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 8:43:48 PM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

       
      Okay, spefically we can look to Christ Jesus' word regarding 'be not like your father the Serpent'.... okay, we can see that the reason Christ Jesus can say that is because Jesus was able to rise....as his bodies were able to be purifed...and Zarathustra was able to support that as it was his .....oh see here is the problem if we do not get clear on these biographies from an experiential understanding:
       
      Zarathustra
      John the Baptist
      Lazarus
       
      Jesus
      Enoch
      Adam
       
      Eve
      Mary of Nathan
      Mary of Luke
       
      Joseph of both
       
      Right so the question for me is always these interpenetrations that are so difficult to get clear in the thinking out of experience not out of someone elses' words.....or thoughts.... .Philosophy of Freedom is working with the beings out of our progressing thinking
       
      For why would it be okay for Zarathustra to meld into Jesus.....in the manner that occurred.... for they are one, right? But then what do with this sister soul with John the Baptist...see it is too difficult really to meet in the higher worlds this sort of creation history....because the Fifth Gospel is magic really....the Fifth Gospel leads to a higher thinking that we have to meet but out of our own thinking not from Steiner's words....or nothing has changed within us.....
       
      alright im outa here, d
       


       
      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sun, 1/31/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 10:35 AM



      Was Lucifer the Tree of Life?

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sun, 1/31/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 10:21 AM



      Right, and if we look at who and what is the snake, and what it represents what do we arrive at? If we consider Rudolf Steiner's Theosophia we can consider ourselves at plant like in its purity and what we are returning to in a way...so what is the earth, and what was it before....was it Lucifer and then out of Lucifer comes the Tree of Life which in its purity was the Adam and Eve which out of this came the experience of desire which, like our eyes were built from out of the water and the sun burning down upon them, was the penis built out of the desire that was in the tree, in Lucifer? I mean I know these terms are physical but we are ultimately I guess looking at the Tree of Life within and of itself in a way and from there what was born out of It.
       
      So the penis is born and formed out of desire and it was down by the trunk, below the Tree itself...that' s how I saw it in the elementals world, well in a cemented bathroom stall really:))) sorry they are always coming to life for me and I just note them but this one I wanted to share to work upon with others for further understanding. ....
       
      d

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sat, 1/30/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Saturday, January 30, 2010, 11:06 PM



      The Mayans believe that the perfect man and the perfect woman are born from out of the serpent's mouth. Kind of like the reverse of the Adamic tradition.
      Mikko


      From: val2160 <wdenval@aol. com>
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 7:38:55 AM
      Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: The Snake and the Heel

       
      http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Vision_Serpent

      http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Bloodletting_ in_Mesoamerica

      --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold
      <dottie_z@.. .> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hey Friends,
      >
      > So, I had cause to wonder from the elementals this morning about the
      snake and the penis. I saw an image out of which I could see the snake
      in the penis, following the same form. And this had me consider the
      reference in the bible about the snake and the heel...and so I offer it
      below as it seems to me that in mystery language the feet, as
      understood by some, represents the sexual organ. This is how many claim
      that there was a sexual relationship between the Magdalene and Jesus as
      she is always at the feet. The Jews recognize this as a sexual
      representation.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done
      this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the
      field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the
      days of thy life:
      >
      >
      > 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between
      thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise
      his heel.
      >
      >
      > 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and
      thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy
      desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
      >
      >
      > 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the
      voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded
      thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy
      sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"
      >
      > But an interesting thing is 3:15
      >
      > 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between
      thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise
      his heel.
      >
      > It seems to me that...well, why does it say 'it shall bruise thy head,
      and thou shalt bruise his heel' ? I mean God is speaking to the snake
      here so why 'it' and then why 'his' as later on he addresses the woman
      and then also Adam...
      >
      > In any case I think we can see how that snake that eats its tail has
      to do somewhat with this legend as well as Lucifer rising in a way and
      this might be also what the phallus symbols are speaking to across the
      line....Lucifer rising, man rising to his birthright, ongoing working
      towards healing the Fall.
      >
      > All good things,
      > Dottie
      >
      >
      > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      >















    • Mikko Nuuttila
      See also: Mothman Mikko ________________________________ From: Mikko Nuuttila To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed,
      Message 249 of 249 , Feb 14, 2010
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        See also: Mothman
        Mikko


        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 5:03:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         

        The lesser guardian is the Freudian Id, the censor (of subconsious urges, where the seeds of our karma lie. What is taken as the guardian (of knowledge) in Castaneda, is a moth that may appear gigantic to you, and it brings you dust of knowledge, amber hued particles, which I have managed to see twice. Last summer I caressed a moth on my finger, its hairy neck, and it eagerly drank the sweat from my finger. This went on for a long time. The moth is the night butterfly, butterfly being the Greek psyche and this the nightside of it. The Quran says Jesus will come back when people lie on the ground like night butterflies, and this is well what they do in Tensegrity seminars, Mexican Magical Passes lying on the ground to make the night butterfly moves.
        Mikko


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 4:52:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         

        Mikko there is one thing I have always kept very close to me as a danger noted by Rudolf Steiner: asking or seeking to understand more than what we have the capacity to understand in experience. As I have moved through this work many different things opened up before me and I became aware that I lacked courage to see or know these things from a human seeing point of view and therefore I stopped them from developing further until I had built courage and understanding to see or experience. Courage in me was lacking greatly in these things and its only been little by little I have been able to open up further to the path out of this lack of courage.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 8:06 AM



        According to Steiner, Mars corresponds to mineralization forces (and he also says we have to beware of the crystallizing element in our dreams (inorganics of Castaneda) and seek flowing qualities in dreaming instead. Mineralization forces bespeak scientific intellect. Aries which stands for Mars looks backwards and Steiner said something about it always looking to the past. I must say I am personally very interested in everything Steiner said is not good for us, I seek crystalline dreaming and he also said pranayama breathing exercises, the occult forces of breath are not for Westerners, but Holy Spirit is properly translated as Holy Breath from Greek (pneuma).


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 5:57:57 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         
        That's exactly what I need to look at: Edom and Eden...do you know there are a group called the Edomites and these are connected with Essau...many years ago I woke up from the dream world with the saying 'you are an ....ite' and I couldn't figure out what that was, was it Sodomite, which I was kind of appalled at, or, well so many other 'ites' and then my Rabbi pegged me for a 'Noahite' one after righteousness. ......... ......... .....one after righteousness. ......that' s connected to Melchizedek isn't it...well that's damn interesting. ....what was ....well, anyway, the point is that we need to understand clearly Edom and Eden and the 'Paradise' of Eden....that' s what we have to come to know..
         
        But you know what Mikko, the biggest thing I woke up with this morning is that I want to know, I'm  ready to know in courage, what and how the spirit is in this body...how does the etheric feel and what does it look like and how is it interpenetrating with the astral and how does the astral look like and what does it feel like and then how is this connected to the higher being of our I am...what does  that look like...I don't want these myths anymore right now....that' s enough. I'm ready.
         
        So this morning when I awake I have an experience of something that has plagued me since childhood... .and because of our studies here and our back and forth I had the thought 'it is a force within me' and I was able to subdue it. It immediately ceased. And I was kind of amazed and yet victorious in a little girl kinda way like 'whoa, that's all it took, I had to recognize it' and then...and this is where consciousness comes in 'I had a choice'. And I chose to get up out of bed. Not very miraculous to most but to me it was a clear moment a clear win.
         
        So, how do these forces move in us...can we experience them, can we catch them if you will....can we catch them. And then there is this climbing up the ladder...we do so also unconsciously but when we do consciously we are able to give something back to Michael...now I understand what Rudolf Steiner shares....now I understand how he says we have to give up to Michael and then he gives up further....it is our winning back from Lucifer, whom we bring with us, upward, and we win Lucifer back from Ahriman and Lilith...... that' s who we win Lucifer from..that's how Lucifer is redeemed.... he is redeemed when we consciously wake up within our ...when our thinking lights up and we catch the adversaries at work in our bodies and then we make a choice to do differently than  what our lower nature calls for, then we win something for the spiritual worlds....
         
        You know we can all talk about these things but until we truly have these experiences of spirit reality and we prepare ourselves for these spirit realities, kinda like preparing oneself for the transition to the heavenly worlds, and we are in it, until we truly have these experiences we can not lead others in truth only in theory....and that's okay but we do have to recognize it, we have to recognize and seek out spirit workings past our talkings and our knowings.... or we continue to slumber...may this be a year that we catch the adversary and take back up to Michael that which is his.
         
        Love,
        Dottie
         


         
        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 11:10 PM



        If Adam was the Garden and it means "red earth" was it Mars, as the Bible also talks about Edom (Mars) in a few highly interesting spots, and this is like ED.EN, also a Sumerian word (I think I am quoting Sitchin).
        Mikko


        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 3:22:50 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith

         
        Kim, I was once one who said Ahriman had to be transformed and also Lilith, that is not my understanding now. Many have come at me for thinking so but that's not what changed my consideration, my consideration changed when considering the principle of the Beings.....
         
        I was sitting with Genesis today...funny how maturity just changes things...anyway I was thinking of how I could see it in a new way and I am kinda shocked at what I read today and the vision I have or the picture I have is of the Chariot, not a Tree, a Chariot and the four layers round and three down, fourth with the Ain Soph...and it is through this I want to  see as it seems to me that Adam is the garden, Adam is the garden Kim, not just the Tree, he is the garden is what is coming to me as I consider how to see this past the words and past the pictures already given to man....I have to find a new picture that is of Light and Love as that is what this is all transformed out of and back in to......so we need a three tiered chariot that has four sides around, almost like hte ones we see of Tibetan or Thailand stories....that' s probably the turtle everyone talks of that is carrying the world, ...and if we consider our lowest level is in this earthly...well, you know what, I don't even want to go there....its so easy to repeat things and Steiner students do that best just as the dogmatic christians do and that's why we dont' have any new image that is needed today....I cannot work with that any longer I can just tell something has just changed in me that is abhoring almost the old picture..... and the word play you and I do with this or that is funny but I appreciate it so much because at least we are seeking instead of repeating... .and we keep teaching ourselves something new out of our own seeking versus reading it and saying 'oh yes blah blah blah'.....
         
        Kim, we should really work, like in days of old with Pythagoras:) ))) we should alight upon it anew.....we have to sit with it anew....Light and Love....out of the past and into the future
         
        d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 10:31 AM



        Take a deep inbreath, and read it again:)

        > Steiner GA273 (from German):
        ---->That means my source is german.
        the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith.
        ---->Female for a man and male for a woman, always the opposite of the physical body.

        According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife
        ---->Lilith was mans first wife, estherbody+astral body
        ---->when she left man, it meant that physical body+ether body

        and mother of Lucifer
        ---->The astral is born out of the etheric.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        ---->In the same way as we have purified the luciferic spirits we shall purify the Ahrimanic, there is a reason Christ looks with love at Ahriman in the sculpture. No being is lost forever. These beings where created at the old Sun and they are at home on Mars. Steiner told of a mission on Mars, remember.

        If you cant accept that Steiner says that Ahrimanian beings are elementals, you don't get any real understanding of the Ahrimanian seen as beings, and that nots necessary, but many questions are not possible to answer without that understanding.
        Kim

        --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold <dottie_z@... .> wrote:
        >
        > Steiner GA273 (from German): ...the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith. That leads up to times where the man was not at all constituted so. According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife and mother of Lucifer.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        > Kim
        >  
        > Kim, what is the rest of that text saying? Is it in English? ...I need the rest of that text to understand a thing. How can Adam and Lilith be the mother of Lucifer....somethin g is missing here... something is amiss here....something is....okay this just pulls me into Steiner's work past the Christologies which I have not studied well enough to know what is up with this picture above....and I can't hold the idea that we are transforming the spirit beings themselves, the ahrimanic spirit beings themselves, versus the places where they have successfully manipulated my own being, which are in me and are of me, separate from them....although they twist so well to be so emeshed that man has to force them out of his own being...its different with the elemental beings where these are transformed through our own actions, these are the helpers of man....i can't recognize them in what you have offered in relations to 'archons' and such or I seem to have a negative
        > view of the words as 'shadows' etc......the elementals are not shadows, they are beings intimately and goodly connected with man's own transformation. ....whereas the ahrimanic beings serve as a challenge to man......
        >  
        > I once was thinking kindly on the ahrimanic beings in the sense that they too will be transformed but the more I understand how they are repelled by the very thing we are creating, Love, I understand that this is not their task, their task is not our own, they were allowed to enter in as we had already gone down a road that necessitated our need of their energies to get us back on track towards the I Am and what the cosmic world was creating before we took a left turn so to speak.
        >  
        > I don't think its just women as is being noted here in regards to understanding Lilith, rather I think it is speaking to the collective unconscious that understands a dogma has been placed not only on religious/spiritual matters but also on the male/female element in our world.....any group that is being oppressed is going to seek to find ways to show what is inherently true within and usually they have to skirt to the outside of the norm in myth and legend to do so. But mostly it is a misunderstanding of Sophia in her fallen stage as a being of Wisdom, and Lilith, not of this worldly state of affairs....I was one of those who fought to understand the difference between the two as I could only see them as the same story when they are not.
        >  
        > I am just shocked to hear something such as Lilith is the mother of Lucifer and Adam is the father.....if I have to consider this further I can only think that .....I don't think Lilith can be a part of this world....she can not be within Adam as in his purity....she has to be outside it, he has to meet it....she is under him and then flies up......she has to enter into him from below, in order to enter into man......okay, I'm going to exit these conversations and get into Genesis and the legends with the Rabbis...... and check some satanist views....
        >  
        > Thanks,
        > Dottie
        >
        >
        >
        > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Juan Revilla hylonome@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Juan Revilla hylonome@...
        > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
        > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Steiner GA273 (from German): ...the etheric body of man is female, seen as Lilith. That leads up to times where the man was not at all constituted so.. According to legend, Lilith is Adam's first wife and mother of Lucifer.
        > She is the Ahrimanian spirits in our etheric body, and our work are to purify them...
        > Kim
        > Makes a lot of sense, thanks.
        >
        > I would note that from this perspective the etheric body is more properly called "Isha", Lilith being the ahrimanized or sub-physical part (the counter- or "anti-" part --what some theosophist think is the etheric body). A lot of confusion or ambivalence regarding the nature of Lilith is created by giving to her the higher qualities that correspond to Isha... at least this is what I feel happens very often specially among "new age" women. I think "Isha" is the higher ethers (the Tree of Life) above the warmth ether (the ring of fire), which you already quoted Steiner suggesting that it became Krishna and later Nathan Jesus.
        >
        > .... the pre-christian or non-christianized side of Isha being its luciferic aspect or the "twin soul" of man and woman in the ordinary sense.
        >
        > Juan
        >













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