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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: future yoga and Ahriman

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  • dottie zold
    Dear Federico, I loved that you posted work from Sr. Scaligiero as I have a few of his books. For me the work is a bit abstract and I think its the
    Message 1 of 39 , Oct 15, 2009
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      Dear Federico, I loved that you posted work from Sr. Scaligiero as I have a few of his books. For me the work is a bit abstract and I think its the translation and not the teachers fault. I find this also true for many who read Sergei's work: the translator is so important to the equation. I have found certain translaters whose work is so touching and others where Sergei sounds more difficult. I think the translator is the key in any works, an absolute make or break in the publishing world.
       
      And I thank you for taking the time to bring the passage forth. Again I wasn't disputing the passage at all rather the comments about 'her thinking  not being thinking but thinking it is thinking'. I really didnt' say anything about the passage as I just did not have time to consider it.
       
      You know the Love and the Christ part is just something that I keep finding that is lacking in our interelating on a whole. And it is a magi and shepherd thing really. And in our work this consistancy of working towards this brotherhood is really lost. Just like in Steiner's work on ....oh darn I can't remember the name of that lecture....but the point was that we rub up against one another and this is how we come to know the karma and who we are to one another...this is how we find our posse in essence. The posse that has committed to working together to bring spirit awareness to our friends who join us in this journey. And that's what I think we do when we disagree or get tight with one another and still choosing to work through whatever disagreements we have without dismissing the other as this or a that. And to me that's Christ in Us.
       
      All good things,
      Dottie

      "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

      --- On Wed, 10/14/09, fs13997 <fs13997@...> wrote:

      From: fs13997 <fs13997@...>
      Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: future yoga and Ahriman
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 9:24 PM

      Dear Dottie,

      It is easy to mistake intentions when using a means like a list. But we should not fall into this trap. Otherwise we may keep going in a spiral of misunderstanding.
      You posted an ambiguous comment right above my last post.
      In doubt I took a chance to clarify that Scaligero's work is not disconnected from the Logos. I considered the ambiguity of your text and I chose to clarify what others may have misinterpreted. Now you 'seem' to express that I am throwing things without love at others. But how much work did it take for me to translate those pages, instead of just write down some passing thought quickly, isn't an act of love? It was not judgmental or critical but only explanatory. It seemed to fit the answer concerning the 'yoga' of the future, that is the path of thinking.
      The act of choosing to contribute something to help the understanding of a theme is a movement towards others, an offer. Of course the offer may be criticized or contradicted and is part of engaging in a debate. But when intentions are mistaken it is better to correct the error. You and others may see a quote from a Teacher as an act voided of love and that is a reasonable reaction. But clarification should be the means to settle issues through discussion and that is the reason for my present reply.
      Your difficulty in understanding my quote may be part of a deficiency in my translation. It is a signal that more work is necessary to render the meaning in a more comprehensible form.

      Federico


      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Federico,
      >  
      > Teacher Scalgiero's work is not what I was referring to when I said lacking Christ.
      >  
      > You know, its so easy to throw things at people without any love or kindness or consideration and then judgement to top it off. It's uncool. I am more so aware of how uncool it is when I encounter it these days. For example, a hip cool cat came into Elderberries the other day and said 'whoa man this music is way to loud, that's out, loud is out' ....the kids don't like the opera so they were happy to have him put me in my place about the music. And I said to them, 'who walks into a new place and the first thing they say is something negative'. Is that kind or caring or considerate? Not even a 'hello' or hi' or anything like that, no a complaint because he didn't like the music. This young man waited for me to say something to him and I just waited till he was done with his judgment and waited to see if he was going to order anything. He did not and then walked back out the door.
      >  
      > For Elderberries our mission statement embodies our understanding of hte importance of kindness care and consideration of the other knowing that all who enter our doors are entering our path of spiritual development. So too here on list when we just want to throw down a judgement of what we think of another's thinking or another's feelings or whathaveyou without considering to seek a common bond of Christ in Us.
      >  
      > So, if people want to talk about self development and use a teachers words to smack the other person there is no Christ in this.  And I am so over dealing with men who keep throwing their weight around like that. When we talk about 'thinking' there is a purpose towards this activity and it has to do with the Christ not just thinking and developing for oneself. And then we have to consider what does the Christ have to do with our thinking and with our development and what does that look like on a daily practical engaging the other in relationship?
      >  
      > No, Mr. Scaligiero was not to whom I was referring, rather it seems it was his students necessity to input a judgement on another, not Mr. Scaligiero.
      >  
      > And the text you share it can be seen you have lots of feeling for it. Yet for me it makes no sense really without further reading. Maybe it was meant for Mikko and he would understand it in relations to the Yoga you are talking about in regard to 'sensing'. I was just minding my business and didn't even remark on your text as I didn't have time to consider it. I am sorry you jumped out of your square at me like that when there really was no cause, I had no judgement on what you brought and was just sharing out of my experience of the Christ and this etheric body and this manner in which it weaves with the warmth and light and life and its possible relations to the 'new Yoga' spoken of by Rudolf Steiner.
      >  
      > All good things,
      > Dottie
      >
      > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
      >
      > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, fs13997 <fs13997@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: fs13997 <fs13997@...>
      > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: future yoga and Ahriman
      > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 8:39 PM
      >
      >
      > Why, Dottie?
      > Scaligero, in the Treatise on Living Thought:
      > "Where he is able to perceive the living being of things and beings he meets the Supersensible within the sensible, the Logos that holds the world. It is the living power of thought that man is free to ignore, but similalry to accept it as the impetuous donation of a resurrection."
      > "It is the thought that man cannot yet receive as direct content: the ultimate sense of thought. As direct content it is the Logos, universal thinking, from which man draws the thoughts that he is able to think independently from his personal nature."
      > "Within the I is the Logos."
      >
      > Federico
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Yeah, see, problem without the Christ. What can I say really? whew, d
      > >
      > > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
      > >
      > > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, fs13997 <fs13997@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > From: fs13997 <fs13997@>
      > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: future yoga and Ahriman
      > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:26 AM
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Kim,
      > > This quote explains what is meant by yoga of the future and what differentiates it from past traditions. Also, it explains that before following a method one should be aware of what is the condition of her thinking because that thinking is the instrument by which she decides what to do and yet she does not know what thinking is. So, 'thinking must become aware of its own movement.' Of course this is just a brief quote from a book that is more than 200 pages long. The language used is not however more difficult than many other authors of treatises in the field of epistemology.
      > > Federico
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Frederico,
      > > > I have read it three times now, and I really don't think he says
      > > > anything at all, except it's vital. I much prefer Steiners clear and
      > > > simple text.
      > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "fs13997" <fs13997@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Mikko,
      > > > > The 'pure thought' Steiner speaks about is not, of course, the simple
      > > > abstraction that can be ordinarily performed in our mind when for
      > > > example we think an object. That's ordinary thought. I can think of the
      > > > structure of an atom with all its orbitals s, p, d, etc., without an
      > > > actual perception of the object of my thought. However, pure thought is
      > > > the experience of the etheric life of thinking.
      > > > > An asnwer to your proposition may be found in a book written by
      > > > Massimo Scaligero: "Yoga Meditation Magic." Scaligero wrote that:
      > > > "[t]here is a Yoga of the new times, but it is not Traditional Yoga, and
      > > > to be precise it could not be called Yoga, because it the technique
      > > > through which the 'spiritual' that becomes unconsciously extrinsic as
      > > > rational thought and Science is identified or isolated; such technique
      > > > opens the possibility to experience in its pure state the supersensible
      > > > element that ordinarily alienates itself in the course of scientifc
      > > > investigation. It is the same Supersensible that constitutes the essence
      > > > of the Traditions, which can be perceived as the form of its further
      > > > movement because, by bringing together thinking and the physical thing,
      > > > according to the proceedings of Science, it realizes its radical
      > > > movement within the human. The reintegration of the human should begin
      > > > from this radical element; the investigator should draw to this radical
      > > > element. This is the possibility of the Spiritual Science of
      > > > contemplating from a supertraditional point of view, i.e. beyond East
      > > > and West, the present presence of the Spiritual within the human inner
      > > > life, with respect to the scientific experience, and to the
      > > > discrimination of its inner background from the illusory external
      > > > appearances.
      > > > > The possibility that the cerebral organ conditions thinking causing an
      > > > irregular cerebral function capable to project itself even into
      > > > spiritual activities, is due to the series of sensory impressions that
      > > > resonate in our psyche without the counterpart of a conscious
      > > > processing. The absence of such elaboration, in turn, is due to the
      > > > dynamic of  thinking being arrested in its act of reflecting but void of
      > > > its completeness. The first act of reintegration is for thinking the
      > > > achievement of the wholeness of its movement, the experience of its
      > > > reflex condition that allows the perception of its metadialectical
      > > > antecedent. A truthful spiritual technique should furnish the awareness
      > > > of the priority of such duty of thinking.
      > > > > The kind of meditation that is urgent today should be recognized in
      > > > relationship to the request of thinking consciousness, i.e. the dynamic
      > > > relationship between the I and thinking. In the epoch of self-awareness
      > > > it is urgent to our thinking to recognize the essential awareness of its
      > > > own movement. Our thinking had the burden of bring awareness to
      > > > sciences, including logic, but not to itself as the source of logic. The
      > > > contradiction consists in the realization of a rational duty that is
      > > > justified exclusively in reference to a Principle of responsibility and
      > > > in the simultaneous absence of a conscious relationship with such
      > > > Principle. We can say that the rationality of modern man is a logically
      > > > unfinished process. Therefore, the first task of those who want to
      > > > pursue an inner path is to become aware of the state of their thinking.
      > > > They should know what they 'noetically' do when they choose an esoteric
      > > > path. They should not take lightly a rite, or a method, or a discipline,
      > > > if the only true discipline can be suggested to them by the state of
      > > > thinking itself, through which they move to the quest for their Self."
      > > > >
      > > > > Hope this helps.
      > > > > Federico
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila
      > > > bellmeine@ wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Steiner says the yoga of the future will be detached from the senses
      > > > and in the realm of pure thought.
      > > > > > Isn't this somewhat like the definition of Ahrimanic clairvoyance by
      > > > him, where you for instance see the structure of the atom as an exercise
      > > > in thinking without physically being able to view it? I saw the
      > > > connection this morning after a night's sleep.
      > > > > > Is this connection coincidental, for Steiner does not really
      > > > advocate Ahriman?
      > > > > > On the other hand, we must be able to learn to deal with Him, which
      > > > is taking him in by showing astonishment at His achievements to maintain
      > > > a natural balance between forces, it is said.
      > > > > > Mikko
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >




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    • Kim Graae Munch
      Hi Federico, I know that, but you have in reality two interior meetings: The lower meeting between the astral body and the etheric body (Anima/Animus), they
      Message 39 of 39 , Oct 31, 2009
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        Message
        Hi Federico,
         
        I know that, but you have in reality two interior meetings: The lower meeting between the astral body and the etheric body (Anima/Animus), they join again as they have been before. The other are where the Consciousness soul (Sophia) joins with Manas, which should be what he means.
         
        Kim
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fs13997
        Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 3:45 PM
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero * Sacro Amore in English

         

        Hi Kim,
        Scaligero used the word 'dual' (duale in Italian) as well to describe the two terms of the 'dual,' the male and the female. Note that the meeting with the other element of the dual is preceded by the experience of the inner complementary element of the dual. So, every man has within himself the inner woman and every woman bears within herself the inner man. The external meeting with an actual complementary element of the dual is preceded by the inner event.
        Federico

        --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "Kim Graae Munch" <kimgm@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Federico,
        > It should have been twin-spirit in stead of -soul, but everybody have their own understanding of what it means. The word most used in the German speaking countries are Dual or Dualen. I think the word binomion is ok, binomial is a mathematical concept, so it would be confusing, and I think the ending -on signifies that the two is one.
        > Kim
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of fs13997
        > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 12:59 AM
        > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Massimo Scaligero * Sacro Amore in English
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Kim,
        >
        > I agree that it is well written. I was just pointing at some words that may be not clear when taken out of their original context.
        >
        > Then, you were referring to the commonly called twin-soul, while I was pointing to the fact that the word 'twins' or 'twin-soul' is not used in the text, probably to avoid any misunderstanding due to the common use of the term.
        >
        > Federico
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow% 40yahoogroups. com> tomorrow@yahoogroup s.com, "Kim" <kimgm@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Federico,Twins or the Original Couple is what Sacro Amore is about:
        > >
        > > Romantic love on Earth is a misty attempt to connect to its own
        > > source, to the 'I am'. Sacred love however, which is the union of the
        > > original couple, cannot be separated from Initiation, from connecting
        > > to the 'I am'.
        > >
        > > and
        > >
        > > The original couple still carried an angelic archetype in their soul.
        > > The sexual union of the genders followed a divine process, with the help
        > > of Powers who can rule the Snake (lower lunar currents) while the couple
        > > was in deep sleep. They never experienced sex awake.
        > >
        > > and
        > >
        > >
        > > At this spiritual low point, however, the forgotten archetype strives
        > > to awaken. The man can find the celestial woman again, the woman can
        > > find the celestial man again. The theme of celestial love reappears
        > > profoundly, together with the possibility of actually meeting the
        > > Sacro Amore partner, the one and only, newly found original pair who
        > > brings the unspeakable content of the Grail.
        > > andThe original couple did not sin because its sexual intercourse
        > > happened unconsciously. Since then mankind degraded - ascending back
        > > requires the path of Sacro Amore: to lose ourselves in an absolute
        > > devotion to the other through a pure, radiant romantic love, the
        > > platonic love. This is not the devotion of the gopis to Krishna, not
        > > loving the Divine, but loving a creation, the only one in whom we can
        > > meet the Divine, the one who carries the whole journey we went on to
        > > find the original twin again. Love is the mutuality of finding the
        > > other.
        > >
        > > I think it's well written.
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Kim
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow% 40yahoogroups. com> tomorrow@yahoogroup s.com, "fs13997" <fs13997@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Kim,
        > > > I think there is a translation problem.
        > > > Looking at the the end of the document someone from Hungary was
        > > involved. Not surprisingly, because Kuhlewind learned so much from him.
        > > Still, Kuhlewind followed the teaching of Scaligero and from them
        > > produced his epistemological works.
        > > >
        > > > In this article it says 'the original binomion (twin-soul)'
        > > > The reference to the 'twin-soul' appears to be an attempt to clarify
        > > the word 'binomion.'
        > > > I think that the word in the original text should be translated using
        > > 'binomial' because in Italian it is the same as it used in math, and it
        > > refers to the original binomial as the original couple, that is the two
        > > elements (binomial) that compose the couple. Here the two elements hold
        > > the 'great arcane' of the Androgynous, that is the 'rebis' in alchemy.
        > > >
        > > > The original paragraph should be:
        > > > "The mystery of the original relationship of the human couple is the
        > > reference that we should use as the measure of the inanity and of the
        > > fallacy of every way to the spiritual through sexual initiations or
        > > ceremonies that are absolutely unrelated to the celestial element of the
        > > original binomial which holds the 'great arcane' of the Androgynous. "
        > > >
        > > > Consider that the article is a summary made by the author(s) and
        > > therefore is a derivative work of the original. For example the first
        > > chapter mentions Tantrism but fails to say that:
        > > > "The strength of Tantrism exercises a special charm over weakened
        > > individuals who feel nostalgic for magical power."
        > > >
        > > > Also the term 'diamond-like' current is maybe difficult to grasp. It
        > > derives from the term 'Vajrayana' where 'vajra' means both 'diamond' and
        > > 'lightning.' Vajra is then referred to the 'body of glory' or
        > > 'adamantine body' that is the etheric body restored to its original
        > > state. The word lightning is referred by Scaligero to living thinking as
        > > lightning thinking and the word adamant is referred to the carbon that
        > > is in our body. Diamond is in fact carbon and through breathing the
        > > carbon 'becomes' diamond creating the 'adamantine body' of the
        > > Vajrayana." This achievement today requires the practice of living
        > > thinking. "[T]hinking becomes a pure force of life that utilizes the
        > > carbon (which is in its pure state diamond) in the body as its vehicle."
        > > >
        > > > Federico
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow% 40yahoogroups. com> tomorrow@yahoogroup s.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hey Dottie and Federico,Interestin g document, as he writes about the
        > > > > Twins (Dualseelen <http://de.wikipedia <http://de.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Dualseele> .org/wiki/Dualseele > ) in the
        > > end
        > > > > of the text.In the German wiki on Dualseelen it is said that the
        > > Hebrew
        > > > > word Zela can both mean Rib or Side!Kim
        > > > > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow% 40yahoogroups. com> tomorrow@yahoogroup s.com, dottie zold
        > > > > <dottie_z@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hey Kim and Federico, I found a little page on Massimo and another
        > > > > incredible link to Sacro Amore in English. The translator is amazing
        > > I
        > > > > find as I found a few other things on the internet but they are so
        > > darn
        > > > > abstract that the soul doesn't even have the capacity to sense what
        > > is
        > > > > trying to be expressed... well that is my experience. But below there
        > > is
        > > > > a wonderful translation, and incredible passage of the 'archetype'
        > > that
        > > > > hovered over man in the beginning... lots of inspirations while
        > > reading
        > > > > these words and a great comforting I was experiencing as well
        > > > > interestingly enough. I imagine as its something that is upon me at
        > > this
        > > > > point in the journey and I so welcome his thoughts...Anyhow, good
        > > > > Saturday to all.
        > > > > > d
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Massimo Scaligero
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Massimo Scaligero (1906 â€"2006) was born Antonio
        > > Sgabelloni
        > > > > in Veroli, Calabria. He was a contemporary Italian spiritual master
        > > who
        > > > > has drank deep from Western and Eastern traditions. Equally at home
        > > by
        > > > > direct experience with Western philosophy and psychology, Western
        > > > > esotericism (Rosicrucianism, Templarism, and Anthroposophy) and
        > > Eastern
        > > > > meditative practices (Zen and Tibetan Buddhism), Scaligero created a
        > > > > body of work that influenced Georg Kühlewind, among others. He
        > > was
        > > > > the author of numerous books, including (in Italian, untranslated) :
        > > > > Treatise on Living Thinking; The Way of the Solar Will; Immortal
        > > Love;
        > > > > The Secrets of Space and Time; Yoga, Meditation, Magic; From Yoga to
        > > the
        > > > > Rose Cross; Practical Manual of Meditation; The Logos and the New
        > > > > Mysteries; Psychotherapy; Techniques of Inner Concentration; Healing
        > > > > with Thinking; Meditation and Miracles; Thinking as Antimaterialism;
        > > > > Western Kundalini; Isis Sophia; and Zen and Logos.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The Light (La Luce) (Paperback)
        > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â An Introduction to Creative
        > > Imagination
        > > > > > Massimo Scaligero - Sacro Amore.english
        > > > > > Â
        > > > > > http://www.scribd. <http://www.scribd. com/doc/9682181/ Massimo-Scaliger o-Sacro-Amoreeng> com/doc/9682181/ Massimo-Scaliger o-Sacro-Amoreeng
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >

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