Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Yahweh and the (Godhead)

Expand Messages
  • markhein46
    I can t find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner s view. While not putting
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 17 6:02 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.

      The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.

      "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."

      In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."

      (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."

      "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."


      "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
    • elfuncle
      Rudolf Steiner: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19171113p01.html When a man s attitude to the spiritual
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 17 6:15 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Rudolf Steiner:

        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19171113p01.html 
        "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world — even if it is only in his feeling — is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos — the only Being with whom he is able to feel related — he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ — whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.

        Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not — and this holds good above all at the present time — really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.

        This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."

        ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
        Tarjei


        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "markhein46" <zenboychik@...> wrote:
        >
        > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
        >
        > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
        >
        > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
        >
        > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
        >
        > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
        >
        > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
        >
        >
        > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
        >

      • dottie zold
        Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 17 7:20 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
           
          Alll good things,
          Dottie

          "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

          --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle <coolvibes@...> wrote:

          From: elfuncle <coolvibes@...>
          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM



          Rudolf Steiner:

          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19171113p01.html 
          "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world — even if it is only in his feeling — is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos — the only Being with whom he is able to feel related — he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ — whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.

          Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not — and this holds good above all at the present time — really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.

          This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."

          ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
          Tarjei


          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "markhein46" <zenboychik@...> wrote:
          >
          > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
          >
          > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
          >
          > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
          >
          > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
          >
          > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
          >
          > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
          >
          >
          > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
          >




        • Kim Graae Munch
          My guess would be the great teacher John the Baptist. Kim ... From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 17 10:13 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Message
            My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
            Kim
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
            Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
            To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)

             

            Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
             
            Alll good things,
            Dottie

            "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

            --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle <coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:

            From: elfuncle <coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
            Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
            To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM



            Rudolf Steiner:

            http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
            "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world — even if it is only in his feeling — is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos — the only Being with whom he is able to feel related — he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ — whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.

            Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not — and this holds good above all at the present time — really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.

            This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."

            ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
            Tarjei


            --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" <zenboychik@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
            >
            > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
            >
            > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
            >
            > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
            >
            > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
            >
            > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
            >
            >
            > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
            >




          • dottie zold
            Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....   Consider the figure of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination....as a will
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 17 10:26 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
               
              Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination....as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha....and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
               
              And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration...it moves almost completely in time....
               
              d
               
              p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
               
              p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....

              "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

              --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

              From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
              Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM



              My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
              Kim
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
              Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)

               
              Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
               
              Alll good things,
              Dottie

              "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

              --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle <coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:

              From: elfuncle <coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
              Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
              To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM



              Rudolf Steiner:

              http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
              "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world — even if it is only in his feeling — is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos — the only Being with whom he is able to feel related — he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ — whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.

              Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not — and this holds good above all at the present time — really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.

              This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."

              ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
              Tarjei


              --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" <zenboychik@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
              >
              > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
              >
              > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
              >
              > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
              >
              > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
              >
              > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
              >
              >
              > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
              >







            • dottie zold
              You know, I had the opportunity yesterday to share my little life story and my experience of the Christ and the images in the clouds with a friend....you 
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 17 10:35 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                You know, I had the opportunity yesterday to share my little life story and my experience of the Christ and the images in the clouds with a friend....you  know its interesting because its the first time anyone made any sense to me other than Dan at one point, regarding these cloud form experiences of seeing Jesus carrying the cross with a procession of people following, Mother Mary holding Jesus as a child, Jesus being carried to the Godhead by two angels on either side of him, the archetypal God having to look to the side and not see him as he came from the earthlythe lion laying down with the lamb, Michael in profile in the rainbow, very different then seeing him in the phantom body and the light body...they were clear cloud forms I had seen.
                 
                My friend and I had  a conversation about seeing the akashic records and then the difference in experience the astral images in the etheric...first time ever anyone made any sense to me of my experiences from an anthroposophical standpoint...angels just comforting my soul....and interesting how one can choose to cultivate this seeing into the etheric and achieve it according to capacity and devotion....versus it happening...there is a difference I think in how it happened with me and then the deepening and now the choice as an adult to choose to cultivate it versus just sitting with it...very interesting
                 
                All good things,d

                "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com
              • Kim Graae Munch
                You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb. I
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 18 12:27 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Message
                  You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                  I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                  Kim
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)

                   

                  Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                   
                  Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                   
                  And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                   
                  d
                   
                  p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                   
                  p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....

                  "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                  --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                  From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                  Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                  To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM



                  My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                  Kim
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                  To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)

                   
                  Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                   
                  Alll good things,
                  Dottie

                  "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                  --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle <coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:

                  From: elfuncle <coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                  Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                  To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM



                  Rudolf Steiner:

                  http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                  "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world — even if it is only in his feeling — is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos — the only Being with whom he is able to feel related — he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ — whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.

                  Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not — and this holds good above all at the present time — really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.

                  This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."

                  ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                  Tarjei


                  --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" <zenboychik@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                  >
                  > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                  >
                  > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                  >
                  > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                  >
                  > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                  >
                  > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                  >
                  >
                  > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                  >







                • dottie zold
                  I haven t seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 18 7:18 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I haven't seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something about Elisha and Elijah and also this Zarathustra (Solomon soul)  being and the Nathan soul, the sister soul of Adam...If Elijah was at the Baptism then you would also have to have Elisha...where's Elisha? I have had this question from the beginning abotu Elisha and Elijah and Zarathustra just as I have held the question of the Magdalene and the stepmother, and Mary.
                     
                    Elisha, if this being can 'see' Elijah ride upward receives a double portion and is united with Elijah and in a major sense takes over his duties while here on earth.
                    I was remembering something Paramahansa Yogananda says in that John and Jesus are twin souls or something to that affect.
                     
                    Okay heres the problem....if Elijah, John the Baptist is Adam, which can make sense, who is Zarathustra, the Solomon soul? in this story back to the garden? Was it Elijah baptising without and Elisha/Zarathustra baptising within? And then where are Cain and Able....so we know one is with Lazarus.....probably Able with Lazarus right, as he was the son killed, and Cain is with Zarathustra? and so then we can possibly look at the groups of sons who were at each other as duos such as Hagars son and Sarah's son following this line of Cain and Able...up to Golgotha?
                     
                    So we could have Solomon/Cain/Zarathustra as one...killing Hiram/Able/Lazarus and then fully coming together for the new Adam which is baptised by their father, the old Adam....with Eve....
                     
                    well we'll stop there
                     
                    d
                    "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                    --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

                    From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
                    Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:27 AM



                    You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                    I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                    Kim
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)

                     
                    Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                     
                    Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                     
                    And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                     
                    d
                     
                    p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                     
                    p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....

                    "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                    --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                    From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                    Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                    To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM



                    My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                    Kim
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                    To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)

                     
                    Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                     
                    Alll good things,
                    Dottie

                    "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                    --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle <coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:

                    From: elfuncle <coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                    Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                    To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM



                    Rudolf Steiner:

                    http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                    "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world — even if it is only in his feeling — is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos — the only Being with whom he is able to feel related — he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ — whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.

                    Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not — and this holds good above all at the present time — really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.

                    This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."

                    ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                    Tarjei


                    --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" <zenboychik@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                    >
                    > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                    >
                    > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                    >
                    > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                    >
                    > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                    >
                    > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                    >
                    >
                    > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                    >










                  • Kim
                    Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this: The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 18 11:53 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                      The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                       
                      What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                       
                      And

                      If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                      from http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_tabs/i87.html .

                      Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                      About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.

                      As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                      They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                      Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time. Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                      Kim

                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I haven't seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something about Elisha and Elijah and also this Zarathustra (Solomon soul)  being and the Nathan soul, the sister soul of Adam...If Elijah was at the Baptism then you would also have to have Elisha...where's Elisha? I have had this question from the beginning abotu Elisha and Elijah and Zarathustra just as I have held the question of the Magdalene and the stepmother, and Mary.
                      >  
                      > Elisha, if this being can 'see' Elijah ride upward receives a double portion and is united with Elijah and in a major sense takes over his duties while here on earth.
                      >
                      > I was remembering something Paramahansa Yogananda says in that John and Jesus are twin souls or something to that affect.
                      >  
                      > Okay heres the problem....if Elijah, John the Baptist is Adam, which can make sense, who is Zarathustra, the Solomon soul? in this story back to the garden? Was it Elijah baptising without and Elisha/Zarathustra baptising within? And then where are Cain and Able....so we know one is with Lazarus.....probably Able with Lazarus right, as he was the son killed, and Cain is with Zarathustra? and so then we can possibly look at the groups of sons who were at each other as duos such as Hagars son and Sarah's son following this line of Cain and Able...up to Golgotha?
                      >  
                      > So we could have Solomon/Cain/Zarathustra as one...killing Hiram/Able/Lazarus and then fully coming together for the new Adam which is baptised by their father, the old Adam....with Eve....
                      >  
                      > well we'll stop there
                      >  
                      > d
                      > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                      >
                      > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@...
                      > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                      > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:27 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                      > I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                      > Kim
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                      > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                      > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                      >  
                      > Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                      >  
                      > And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                      >  
                      > d
                      >  
                      > p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                      >  
                      > p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....
                      >
                      > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                      >
                      > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                      > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                      > Kim
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                      > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                      >  
                      > Alll good things,
                      > Dottie
                      >
                      > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                      >
                      > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                      > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Rudolf Steiner:
                      >
                      > http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                      >
                      > "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world â€" even if it is only in his feeling â€" is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos â€" the only Being with whom he is able to feel related â€" he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ â€" whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.
                      >
                      > Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not â€" and this holds good above all at the present
                      > time â€" really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.
                      >
                      > This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."
                      >
                      > ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                      >
                      > Tarjei
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" zenboychik@ ..> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                      > >
                      > > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                      > >
                      > > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                      > >
                      > > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                      > >
                      > > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                      > >
                      > > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                      > >
                      >
                    • dottie zold
                      Okay, I will look at your texts later but I don t see a Steiner quote...in any case I was recalling that in my study I found Ish as in Elisha and Zara as in
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 18 4:34 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Okay, I will look at your texts later but I don't see a Steiner quote...in any case I was recalling that in my study I found Ish as in Elisha and Zara as in Zarathustra are both of the feminine...both relating to star princess....just saying,...d

                        "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                        --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:

                        From: Kim <kimgm@...>
                        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:53 AM



                        Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                        The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                         
                        What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                         
                        And

                        If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                        from http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_tabs/i87.html .

                        Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                        About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.

                        As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                        They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                        Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time. Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                        Kim

                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I haven't seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something about Elisha and Elijah and also this Zarathustra (Solomon soul)  being and the Nathan soul, the sister soul of Adam...If Elijah was at the Baptism then you would also have to have Elisha...where's Elisha? I have had this question from the beginning abotu Elisha and Elijah and Zarathustra just as I have held the question of the Magdalene and the stepmother, and Mary.
                        >  
                        > Elisha, if this being can 'see' Elijah ride upward receives a double portion and is united with Elijah and in a major sense takes over his duties while here on earth.
                        >
                        > I was remembering something Paramahansa Yogananda says in that John and Jesus are twin souls or something to that affect.
                        >  
                        > Okay heres the problem....if Elijah, John the Baptist is Adam, which can make sense, who is Zarathustra, the Solomon soul? in this story back to the garden? Was it Elijah baptising without and Elisha/Zarathustra baptising within? And then where are Cain and Able....so we know one is with Lazarus.....probably Able with Lazarus right, as he was the son killed, and Cain is with Zarathustra? and so then we can possibly look at the groups of sons who were at each other as duos such as Hagars son and Sarah's son following this line of Cain and Able...up to Golgotha?
                        >  
                        > So we could have Solomon/Cain/Zarathustra as one...killing Hiram/Able/Lazarus and then fully coming together for the new Adam which is baptised by their father, the old Adam....with Eve....
                        >  
                        > well we'll stop there
                        >  
                        > d
                        > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                        >
                        > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@...
                        > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                        > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:27 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                        > I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                        > Kim
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                        > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                        > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                        >  
                        > Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                        >  
                        > And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                        >  
                        > d
                        >  
                        > p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                        >  
                        > p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....
                        >
                        > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                        >
                        > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                        > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                        > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                        > Kim
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                        > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                        > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                        >  
                        > Alll good things,
                        > Dottie
                        >
                        > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                        >
                        > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > From: elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                        > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                        > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Rudolf Steiner:
                        >
                        > http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                        >
                        > "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world â€" even if it is only in his feeling â€" is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos â€" the only Being with whom he is able to feel related â€" he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ â€" whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.
                        >
                        > Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not â€" and this holds good above all at the present
                        > time â€" really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.
                        >
                        > This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."
                        >
                        > ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                        >
                        > Tarjei
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" zenboychik@ ..> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                        > >
                        > > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                        > >
                        > > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                        > >
                        > > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                        > >
                        > > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                        > >
                        > > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                        > >
                        >



                      • dottie zold
                        Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this: The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:   What was here being told was that the fallen soul of
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 18 5:17 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                          The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                           
                          What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                           
                          Dottie:
                           
                          Kim, I never noticed until now that he says that there was an unfallen sister soul to Eve! that is really interesting to consider to find out  more .....unfallen sister soul to Eve.....See I considered the unfallen sister soul to be that of Adam and of Eve.....of when they were one....hmmmm....I can now see how Adri can consider that the Mary was the Anthroposophia incarnated for a short period of time...and I always had an issue with this consideration...but now I can see how, if this is what is considered, that there was an unfallen sister soul to Adam and another to Eve, one could contemplate such a thing....something doesn't feel right though.......something.........or something is right and it leads me to a new thing...we shall see....does Rudolf Steiner really say that there is an unfallen sister soul to Eve?????? Really???? or what are the words that lead one to believe he was sharing this?
                           
                          Kim:
                          And

                          If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                          from http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_tabs/i87.html .

                          Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                           
                          Dottie: Adam 2 did incarnate...we are talking the Nathan soul, the sister soul did indeed incarnate and did not come under the influence because he was able to overcome him only because the Christ was within him...this is the only way all of us will overcome Lucifer and Ahriman as well....there is no other way as I can see this at this time....
                           
                          And while we have Mr. Smith going on about the importance of one unfallen sister soul why wouldn't the other one be just as important if indeed it did too incarnate...and how did this sister soul overcome the influence of Lucifer???? something is amiss here.
                          Kim:
                          About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.
                          Dottie:
                           
                          I think we can clearly say that there is no way from a physical standpoint this was a woman as we have to consider that Jehova had already been the accepted way of working in the world, therefore no woman would have been accepted or written about as a healer in the sense that Elisha had been...or so are my thoughts...
                           
                          Kim:
                          As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                           
                          Dottie
                           
                          Well, if we have to follow story type we would say, which is what I was considering a few posts earlier, in that Elizabeth would be Sarah and then that would go back to Eve. But if you are saying that it is said that the Nathan Mary is the unfallen sister soul of Eve, then it would seem to be within her right, if we follow the Burning Bush consideration right....
                           
                          See the issue here is this interpenetration that occurs with humans working with the same being....we can see this easily with Shakespeare, Francis Bacon and also King James, they even all look alike. This is the rub in that this interpenetration makes it difficult...I guess the question is why would we want to know? Well, it seems to me that these are the karma lessons of Rudolf Steiner and what he speaks he came to share but he died before this fully occurred....So, in a way, and he shares how important it is in the Karma III series that we come to recognize our karma...that is clear...and so  how we come to recognize our own past lives is when we can learn also to follow the streams and impulses of others. When we can do this we can easily find the lawfullness of the essence of these connections which then allow us to wake up to our own pasts so we too can realize what our tasks are consciously instead of walking through the fog or thinking we know when really we just really don't and are fooling ourselves.
                           
                          Kim:

                          They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                           
                          Dottie: But Abel is not of Adam.
                           
                          Kim:
                          Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time.
                           
                          Dottie:
                          Okay, let me understand  your thinking in this....Abel was the first who shed blood....he was incarnated or Cain wasn't as well....they didn't come through the two different Genesis stories they both appear in the same one...right? If not then what justification is there to say he did not incarnate...if they were both in the same story then I have to see they both incarnated or both did not incarnate....and then later the tubal cain was the first incarnated along with Seth.
                           
                          Kim:
                          Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                          Dottie:
                          I think there is some confusion here...lets see....hmmm if I have to think of one ending their teaching lives it could only be Zarathustra....who is said to have been able to reincarnte immediately and also with completely new sheaths...now I don't know that for myself but that is something that was brought forth by Sergei in the John book and I don't recall what his Steiner reference is although I am sure he has one as always....
                          Why would we say that John the Baptist ended his teaching life when he clearly goes onward....what are you thinking?
                           
                          All good things,
                          Dottie
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           


                          "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner,_._,___

                        • dottie zold
                          Kim, there is no reference to Mr. Smith s assertion that the Mary was a portion of the unfallen sister soul....I can understand or so I have heard, that Rudolf
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 18 5:25 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Kim, there is no reference to Mr. Smith's assertion that the Mary was a portion of the unfallen sister soul....I can understand or so I have heard, that Rudolf Steiner shares that the Nathan Mother and father also by the way, were holy souls....as in first incarnation, however I have never seen it written by him or implied...as Mr. Smith does not have a reference for this do you or does anyone else? I'm not doubting it I just have to see some thoughts or imaginations that can lead me lawfully in this and at  this point I need Rudolf Steiner's words.
                             
                            All good things,
                            Dottie

                            "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                            --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:

                            From: Kim <kimgm@...>
                            Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                            To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:53 AM



                            Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                            The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                             
                            What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                             
                            And

                            If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                            from http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_tabs/i87.html .

                            Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                            About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.

                            As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                            They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                            Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time. Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                            Kim

                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I haven't seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something about Elisha and Elijah and also this Zarathustra (Solomon soul)  being and the Nathan soul, the sister soul of Adam...If Elijah was at the Baptism then you would also have to have Elisha...where's Elisha? I have had this question from the beginning abotu Elisha and Elijah and Zarathustra just as I have held the question of the Magdalene and the stepmother, and Mary.
                            >  
                            > Elisha, if this being can 'see' Elijah ride upward receives a double portion and is united with Elijah and in a major sense takes over his duties while here on earth.
                            >
                            > I was remembering something Paramahansa Yogananda says in that John and Jesus are twin souls or something to that affect.
                            >  
                            > Okay heres the problem....if Elijah, John the Baptist is Adam, which can make sense, who is Zarathustra, the Solomon soul? in this story back to the garden? Was it Elijah baptising without and Elisha/Zarathustra baptising within? And then where are Cain and Able....so we know one is with Lazarus.....probably Able with Lazarus right, as he was the son killed, and Cain is with Zarathustra? and so then we can possibly look at the groups of sons who were at each other as duos such as Hagars son and Sarah's son following this line of Cain and Able...up to Golgotha?
                            >  
                            > So we could have Solomon/Cain/Zarathustra as one...killing Hiram/Able/Lazarus and then fully coming together for the new Adam which is baptised by their father, the old Adam....with Eve....
                            >  
                            > well we'll stop there
                            >  
                            > d
                            > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                            >
                            > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@...
                            > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:27 AM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                            > I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                            > Kim
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                            > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                            >  
                            > Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                            >  
                            > And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                            >  
                            > d
                            >  
                            > p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                            >  
                            > p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....
                            >
                            > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                            >
                            > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                            > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                            > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                            > Kim
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                            > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                            > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                            >  
                            > Alll good things,
                            > Dottie
                            >
                            > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                            >
                            > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                            > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                            > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Rudolf Steiner:
                            >
                            > http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                            >
                            > "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world â€" even if it is only in his feeling â€" is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos â€" the only Being with whom he is able to feel related â€" he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ â€" whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.
                            >
                            > Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not â€" and this holds good above all at the present
                            > time â€" really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.
                            >
                            > This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."
                            >
                            > ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                            >
                            > Tarjei
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" zenboychik@ ..> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                            > >
                            > > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                            > >
                            > > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                            > >
                            > > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                            > >
                            > > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                            > >
                            > > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                            > >
                            >



                          • dottie zold
                            This is a very interesting ending to Proverbs....and what is interesting to me is this ties Ruth, who is the grandmother to David, and with her husband the end
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 18 10:21 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              This is a very interesting ending to Proverbs....and what is interesting to me is this ties Ruth, who is the grandmother to David, and with her husband the end of the Cain lineage, Mary.
                               
                               
                               10 [a] A wife of noble character who can find?
                                     She is worth far more than rubies.
                               11 Her husband has full confidence in her
                                     and lacks nothing of value.
                               12 She brings him good, not harm,
                                     all the days of her life.
                               13 She selects wool and flax
                                     and works with eager hands.
                               14 She is like the merchant ships,
                                     bringing her food from afar.
                               15 She gets up while it is still dark;
                                     she provides food for her family
                                     and portions for her servant girls.
                               16 She considers a field and buys it;
                                     out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
                               17 She sets about her work vigorously;
                                     her arms are strong for her tasks.
                               18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
                                     and her lamp does not go out at night.
                               19 In her hand she holds the distaff
                                     and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
                               20 She opens her arms to the poor
                                     and extends her hands to the needy.
                               21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
                                     for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
                               22 She makes coverings for her bed;
                                     she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
                               23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
                                     where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
                               24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
                                     and supplies the merchants with sashes.
                               25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
                                     she can laugh at the days to come.
                               26 She speaks with wisdom,
                                     and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
                               27 She watches over the affairs of her household
                                     and does not eat the bread of idleness.
                               28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
                                     her husband also, and he praises her:
                               29 "Many women do noble things,
                                     but you surpass them all."
                               30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
                                     but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
                               31 Give her the reward she has earned,
                                     and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
                              Footnotes:
                              1. Proverbs 31:10 Verses 10-31 are an acrostic, each verse beginning with a successive letter of the Hebrew alphabet


                              "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                              --- On Tue, 8/18/09, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                              From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 5:25 PM



                              Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                              About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.

                              As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                              They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                              Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time. Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                              Kim

                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I haven't seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something about Elisha and Elijah and also this Zarathustra (Solomon soul)  being and the Nathan soul, the sister soul of Adam...If Elijah was at the Baptism then you would also have to have Elisha...where's Elisha? I have had this question from the beginning abotu Elisha and Elijah and Zarathustra just as I have held the question of the Magdalene and the stepmother, and Mary.
                              >  
                              > Elisha, if this being can 'see' Elijah ride upward receives a double portion and is united with Elijah and in a major sense takes over his duties while here on earth.
                              >
                              > I was remembering something Paramahansa Yogananda says in that John and Jesus are twin souls or something to that affect.
                              >  
                              > Okay heres the problem....if Elijah, John the Baptist is Adam, which can make sense, who is Zarathustra, the Solomon soul? in this story back to the garden? Was it Elijah baptising without and Elisha/Zarathustra baptising within? And then where are Cain and Able....so we know one is with Lazarus.....probably Able with Lazarus right, as he was the son killed, and Cain is with Zarathustra? and so then we can possibly look at the groups of sons who were at each other as duos such as Hagars son and Sarah's son following this line of Cain and Able...up to Golgotha?
                              >  
                              > So we could have Solomon/Cain/Zarathustra as one...killing Hiram/Able/Lazarus and then fully coming together for the new Adam which is baptised by their father, the old Adam....with Eve....
                              >  
                              > well we'll stop there
                              >  
                              > d
                              > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                              >
                              > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@...
                              > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                              > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:27 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                              > I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                              > Kim
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                              > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                              > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                              >  
                              > Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                              >  
                              > And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                              >  
                              > d
                              >  
                              > p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                              >  
                              > p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....
                              >
                              > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                              >
                              > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                              > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                              > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                              > Kim
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                              > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                              > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                              >  
                              > Alll good things,
                              > Dottie
                              >
                              > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                              >
                              > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                              > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                              > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Rudolf Steiner:
                              >
                              > http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                              >
                              > "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world â€" even if it is only in his feeling â€" is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos â€" the only Being with whom he is able to feel related â€" he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ â€" whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.
                              >
                              > Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not â€" and this holds good above all at the present
                              > time â€" really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.
                              >
                              > This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."
                              >
                              > ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                              >
                              > Tarjei
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" zenboychik@ ..> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                              > >
                              > > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                              > >
                              > > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                              > >
                              > > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                              > >
                              > > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                              > >
                              > > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                              > >
                              >


                              Kim, there is no reference to Mr. Smith's assertion that the Mary was a portion of the unfallen sister soul....I can understand or so I have heard, that Rudolf Steiner shares that the Nathan Mother and father also by the way, were holy souls....as in first incarnation, however I have never seen it written by him or implied...as Mr. Smith does not have a reference for this do you or does anyone else? I'm not doubting it I just have to see some thoughts or imaginations that can lead me lawfully in this and at  this point I need Rudolf Steiner's words.
                               
                              All good things,
                              Dottie

                              "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                              --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:

                              From: Kim <kimgm@...>
                              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:53 AM



                              Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                              The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                               
                              What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                               
                              And

                              If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                              from http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_tabs/i87.html .





                            • dottie zold
                              On Cain and Abel it was interesting to note these two references in the New Testament that speak of Zechariah....which we also know as John the Baptists
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 18 10:32 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Cain and Abel it was interesting to note these two references in the New Testament that speak of Zechariah....which we also know as John the Baptists father....interesting no?
                                 
                                So, here is the passage about the blood being shed:
                                 
                                9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
                                      "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
                                 10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."
                                 
                                 
                                Matthew 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
                                Luke 11:51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'
                                You know, another interesting thing is what happens in Genesis just before Moses....we have two Enochs and there is a son and a daughter ....well there is something interesting happening with the male female thing just before Noah comes forth....and interesting that Enoch's first foray speaks of 365 years of living which probably is how we got the days of the year I imagine but I don't know why that would be...also interesting is that Noah also is one that 'walks with God'....along with Enoch....and then I imagine we can take this up to Moses who is in a little boat on the river....well, anyway that's what you get for reading Genesis late at night....whew,
                                d

                                "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                \

                              • dottie zold
                                Oh, the reason it ties these two together is because in here is mentioned a virtous woman and the only other person in the Old Testament so called was Ruth
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 18 10:33 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Oh, the reason it ties these two together is because in here is mentioned a 'virtous woman' and the only other person in the Old Testament so called was Ruth so it is said...d

                                  "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                  --- On Tue, 8/18/09, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                                  From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                  Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Ruth and Mary
                                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 10:21 PM



                                  This is a very interesting ending to Proverbs....and what is interesting to me is this ties Ruth, who is the grandmother to David, and with her husband the end of the Cain lineage, Mary.
                                   
                                   
                                   10 [a] A wife of noble character who can find?
                                         She is worth far more than rubies.
                                   11 Her husband has full confidence in her
                                         and lacks nothing of value.
                                   12 She brings him good, not harm,
                                         all the days of her life.
                                   13 She selects wool and flax
                                         and works with eager hands.
                                   14 She is like the merchant ships,
                                         bringing her food from afar.
                                   15 She gets up while it is still dark;
                                         she provides food for her family
                                         and portions for her servant girls.
                                   16 She considers a field and buys it;
                                         out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
                                   17 She sets about her work vigorously;
                                         her arms are strong for her tasks.
                                   18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
                                         and her lamp does not go out at night.
                                   19 In her hand she holds the distaff
                                         and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
                                   20 She opens her arms to the poor
                                         and extends her hands to the needy.
                                   21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
                                         for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
                                   22 She makes coverings for her bed;
                                         she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
                                   23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
                                         where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
                                   24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
                                         and supplies the merchants with sashes.
                                   25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
                                         she can laugh at the days to come.
                                   26 She speaks with wisdom,
                                         and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
                                   27 She watches over the affairs of her household
                                         and does not eat the bread of idleness.
                                   28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
                                         her husband also, and he praises her:
                                   29 "Many women do noble things,
                                         but you surpass them all."
                                   30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
                                         but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
                                   31 Give her the reward she has earned,
                                         and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
                                  Footnotes:
                                  1. Proverbs 31:10 Verses 10-31 are an acrostic, each verse beginning with a successive letter of the Hebrew alphabet


                                  "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                  --- On Tue, 8/18/09, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                                  From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 5:25 PM



                                  from http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_tabs/i87.html .

                                  Kim, there is no reference to Mr. Smith's assertion that the Mary was a portion of the unfallen sister soul....I can understand or so I have heard, that Rudolf Steiner shares that the Nathan Mother and father also by the way, were holy souls....as in first incarnation, however I have never seen it written by him or implied...as Mr. Smith does not have a reference for this do you or does anyone else? I'm not doubting it I just have to see some thoughts or imaginations that can lead me lawfully in this and at  this point I need Rudolf Steiner's words.
                                   
                                  All good things,
                                  Dottie

                                  "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                  --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:

                                  From: Kim <kimgm@...>
                                  Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:53 AM



                                  Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                                  The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                                   
                                  What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                                   
                                  And

                                  If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                                  Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                                  About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.

                                  As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                                  They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                  Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time. Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                  Kim

                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I haven't seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something about Elisha and Elijah and also this Zarathustra (Solomon soul)  being and the Nathan soul, the sister soul of Adam...If Elijah was at the Baptism then you would also have to have Elisha...where's Elisha? I have had this question from the beginning abotu Elisha and Elijah and Zarathustra just as I have held the question of the Magdalene and the stepmother, and Mary.
                                  >  
                                  > Elisha, if this being can 'see' Elijah ride upward receives a double portion and is united with Elijah and in a major sense takes over his duties while here on earth.
                                  >
                                  > I was remembering something Paramahansa Yogananda says in that John and Jesus are twin souls or something to that affect.
                                  >  
                                  > Okay heres the problem....if Elijah, John the Baptist is Adam, which can make sense, who is Zarathustra, the Solomon soul? in this story back to the garden? Was it Elijah baptising without and Elisha/Zarathustra baptising within? And then where are Cain and Able....so we know one is with Lazarus.....probably Able with Lazarus right, as he was the son killed, and Cain is with Zarathustra? and so then we can possibly look at the groups of sons who were at each other as duos such as Hagars son and Sarah's son following this line of Cain and Able...up to Golgotha?
                                  >  
                                  > So we could have Solomon/Cain/Zarathustra as one...killing Hiram/Able/Lazarus and then fully coming together for the new Adam which is baptised by their father, the old Adam....with Eve....
                                  >  
                                  > well we'll stop there
                                  >  
                                  > d
                                  > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                  >
                                  > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@...
                                  > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                  > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:27 AM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                                  > I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                                  > Kim
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                                  > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                                  >  
                                  > Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                                  >  
                                  > And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                                  >  
                                  > d
                                  >  
                                  > p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                                  >  
                                  > p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....
                                  >
                                  > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                                  > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                  > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                                  > Kim
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                                  > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                                  >  
                                  > Alll good things,
                                  > Dottie
                                  >
                                  > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                                  > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                  > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Rudolf Steiner:
                                  >
                                  > http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                                  >
                                  > "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world â€" even if it is only in his feeling â€" is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos â€" the only Being with whom he is able to feel related â€" he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ â€" whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.
                                  >
                                  > Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not â€" and this holds good above all at the present
                                  > time â€" really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.
                                  >
                                  > This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."
                                  >
                                  > ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                                  >
                                  > Tarjei
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" zenboychik@ ..> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                                  > >
                                  > > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                                  > >
                                  > > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                                  > >
                                  > > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                                  > >
                                  > > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                                  > >
                                  > > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                                  > >
                                  >









                                • dottie zold
                                  And isn t it interesting to see the man at the gate who is with the elders...it really feels like this passage is speaking about the time of Golgotha...it is
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 18 10:41 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    And isn't it interesting to see the man at the gate who is with the elders...it really feels like this passage is speaking about the time of Golgotha...it is laying out the Joseph of Arimathea and did no one ever think who looked after the step mother when the second Joseph died....interesting isn't it...d

                                    "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                    --- On Tue, 8/18/09, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                                    From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                    Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Ruth and Mary
                                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 10:21 PM



                                    This is a very interesting ending to Proverbs....and what is interesting to me is this ties Ruth, who is the grandmother to David, and with her husband the end of the Cain lineage, Mary.
                                     
                                     
                                     10 [a] A wife of noble character who can find?
                                           She is worth far more than rubies.
                                     11 Her husband has full confidence in her
                                           and lacks nothing of value.
                                     12 She brings him good, not harm,
                                           all the days of her life.
                                     13 She selects wool and flax
                                           and works with eager hands.
                                     14 She is like the merchant ships,
                                           bringing her food from afar.
                                     15 She gets up while it is still dark;
                                           she provides food for her family
                                           and portions for her servant girls.
                                     16 She considers a field and buys it;
                                           out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
                                     17 She sets about her work vigorously;
                                           her arms are strong for her tasks.
                                     18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
                                           and her lamp does not go out at night.
                                     19 In her hand she holds the distaff
                                           and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
                                     20 She opens her arms to the poor
                                           and extends her hands to the needy.
                                     21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
                                           for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
                                     22 She makes coverings for her bed;
                                           she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
                                     23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
                                           where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
                                     24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
                                           and supplies the merchants with sashes.
                                     25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
                                           she can laugh at the days to come.
                                     26 She speaks with wisdom,
                                           and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
                                     27 She watches over the affairs of her household
                                           and does not eat the bread of idleness.
                                     28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
                                           her husband also, and he praises her:
                                     29 "Many women do noble things,
                                           but you surpass them all."
                                     30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
                                           but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
                                     31 Give her the reward she has earned,
                                           and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
                                    Footnotes:
                                    1. Proverbs 31:10 Verses 10-31 are an acrostic, each verse beginning with a successive letter of the Hebrew alphabet


                                    "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                    --- On Tue, 8/18/09, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                                    From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 5:25 PM



                                    from http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_tabs/i87.html .

                                    Kim, there is no reference to Mr. Smith's assertion that the Mary was a portion of the unfallen sister soul....I can understand or so I have heard, that Rudolf Steiner shares that the Nathan Mother and father also by the way, were holy souls....as in first incarnation, however I have never seen it written by him or implied...as Mr. Smith does not have a reference for this do you or does anyone else? I'm not doubting it I just have to see some thoughts or imaginations that can lead me lawfully in this and at  this point I need Rudolf Steiner's words.
                                     
                                    All good things,
                                    Dottie

                                    "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                    --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:

                                    From: Kim <kimgm@...>
                                    Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:53 AM



                                    Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                                    The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                                     
                                    What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                                     
                                    And

                                    If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                                    Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                                    About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.

                                    As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                                    They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                    Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time. Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                    Kim

                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I haven't seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something about Elisha and Elijah and also this Zarathustra (Solomon soul)  being and the Nathan soul, the sister soul of Adam...If Elijah was at the Baptism then you would also have to have Elisha...where's Elisha? I have had this question from the beginning abotu Elisha and Elijah and Zarathustra just as I have held the question of the Magdalene and the stepmother, and Mary.
                                    >  
                                    > Elisha, if this being can 'see' Elijah ride upward receives a double portion and is united with Elijah and in a major sense takes over his duties while here on earth.
                                    >
                                    > I was remembering something Paramahansa Yogananda says in that John and Jesus are twin souls or something to that affect.
                                    >  
                                    > Okay heres the problem....if Elijah, John the Baptist is Adam, which can make sense, who is Zarathustra, the Solomon soul? in this story back to the garden? Was it Elijah baptising without and Elisha/Zarathustra baptising within? And then where are Cain and Able....so we know one is with Lazarus.....probably Able with Lazarus right, as he was the son killed, and Cain is with Zarathustra? and so then we can possibly look at the groups of sons who were at each other as duos such as Hagars son and Sarah's son following this line of Cain and Able...up to Golgotha?
                                    >  
                                    > So we could have Solomon/Cain/Zarathustra as one...killing Hiram/Able/Lazarus and then fully coming together for the new Adam which is baptised by their father, the old Adam....with Eve....
                                    >  
                                    > well we'll stop there
                                    >  
                                    > d
                                    > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                    >
                                    > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@...
                                    > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                    > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:27 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                                    > I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                                    > Kim
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                                    > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                                    >  
                                    > Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                                    >  
                                    > And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                                    >  
                                    > d
                                    >  
                                    > p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                                    >  
                                    > p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....
                                    >
                                    > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                                    > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                    > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                                    > Kim
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                                    > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                                    >  
                                    > Alll good things,
                                    > Dottie
                                    >
                                    > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                                    > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                    > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Rudolf Steiner:
                                    >
                                    > http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                                    >
                                    > "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world â€" even if it is only in his feeling â€" is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos â€" the only Being with whom he is able to feel related â€" he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ â€" whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.
                                    >
                                    > Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not â€" and this holds good above all at the present
                                    > time â€" really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.
                                    >
                                    > This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."
                                    >
                                    > ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                                    >
                                    > Tarjei
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" zenboychik@ ..> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                                    > >
                                    > > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                                    > >
                                    > > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                                    > >
                                    > > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                                    > >
                                    > > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                                    > >
                                    > > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                                    > >
                                    >









                                  • Kim Graae Munch
                                    No, I don t have either. That Sophia existed in both an incarnated and discarnated is possible in the same way as Jesus and the Baptist. Sophia is the AEon of
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 19 6:05 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Message
                                      No, I don't have either.
                                      That Sophia existed in both an incarnated and discarnated is possible in the same way as Jesus and the Baptist. Sophia is the AEon of the old Moon and some says that the AEons comes in pairs.
                                      Steiner talks much about the "Mother of Jesus".  
                                      Kim
                                       
                                       
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:26 AM
                                      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)

                                       

                                      Kim, there is no reference to Mr. Smith's assertion that the Mary was a portion of the unfallen sister soul....I can understand or so I have heard, that Rudolf Steiner shares that the Nathan Mother and father also by the way, were holy souls....as in first incarnation, however I have never seen it written by him or implied...as Mr. Smith does not have a reference for this do you or does anyone else? I'm not doubting it I just have to see some thoughts or imaginations that can lead me lawfully in this and at  this point I need Rudolf Steiner's words.
                                       
                                      All good things,
                                      Dottie

                                      "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                      --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                                      From: Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                                      Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:53 AM



                                      Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                                      The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                                       
                                      What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                                       
                                      And

                                      If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                                      from http://www.bibleand anthroposophy. com/Smith/ main/burning_ bush/charts_ tabs/i87. html .

                                      Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                                      About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.

                                      As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                                      They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                      Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time. Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                      Kim

                                      --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I haven't seen where Rudolf Steiner says that outright, can you share with me where. I have come to that thought as well throughout the years but something about Elisha and Elijah and also this Zarathustra (Solomon soul)  being and the Nathan soul, the sister soul of Adam...If Elijah was at the Baptism then you would also have to have Elisha...where' s Elisha? I have had this question from the beginning abotu Elisha and Elijah and Zarathustra just as I have held the question of the Magdalene and the stepmother, and Mary.
                                      >  
                                      > Elisha, if this being can 'see' Elijah ride upward receives a double portion and is united with Elijah and in a major sense takes over his duties while here on earth.
                                      >
                                      > I was remembering something Paramahansa Yogananda says in that John and Jesus are twin souls or something to that affect.
                                      >  
                                      > Okay heres the problem....if Elijah, John the Baptist is Adam, which can make sense, who is Zarathustra, the Solomon soul? in this story back to the garden? Was it Elijah baptising without and Elisha/Zarathustra baptising within? And then where are Cain and Able....so we know one is with Lazarus..... probably Able with Lazarus right, as he was the son killed, and Cain is with Zarathustra? and so then we can possibly look at the groups of sons who were at each other as duos such as Hagars son and Sarah's son following this line of Cain and Able...up to Golgotha?
                                      >  
                                      > So we could have Solomon/Cain/ Zarathustra as one...killing Hiram/Able/Lazarus and then fully coming together for the new Adam which is baptised by their father, the old Adam....with Eve....
                                      >  
                                      > well we'll stop there
                                      >  
                                      > d
                                      > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                      >
                                      > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@...
                                      > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:27 AM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > You know that Steiner says that John the Baptist is Adam, and Adam is the Sistersoul to the Nathan soul, thats the reason of the recognition in the womb.
                                      > I think there is a mystery about the sistersoul thing
                                      > Kim
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:26 AM
                                      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Well, if so then that would bring him in line with the Lazarus John....
                                      >  
                                      > Consider the 'figure' of Moses...the body of Moses as an imagination. ...as a 'will' force and where do we find that at the time of Golgotha.... and then consider, for a further contemplation ...well, look at the will of Moses, that horse of a man he musta been and is described in his earlly days while taking them out of Egypt...but as a bodily imagination along with the will can lead to a consideration of one at the time of Golgotha....
                                      >  
                                      > And the conversation I just had about this yesterday lead to a very interesting and well known figure during the time of Novalis...and that is a really interesting imaginative consideration. ..it moves almost completely in time....
                                      >  
                                      > d
                                      >  
                                      > p.s. if you have John the Baptist why would it be that the Nathan soul could then have such an impact on him while in the womb....you know what...I never considered that John the Baptist and Joan of Arc have the same dates of initiation or so it seems to me and in the womb both....I have not heard of another historical figure so mentioned in that mystery of the womb, have you?
                                      >  
                                      > p.s. in any case I am thinking we have Elisha and Elijah in the midst with John the Baptist and Zarathustra in any case....
                                      >
                                      > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                      >
                                      > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                                      > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > My guess would be  the great teacher John the Baptist.
                                      > Kim
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:20 AM
                                      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hey Friends, looking at the words on Moses I wanted to see if anyone has an idea of who he was at the time of Golgotha? A friend just shared a few considerations of this personality and it is so funny that it seems lawful in imaginative form that leads all the way up to a very intersting person whom Steiner refers to often. Anyone traced Moses to the Golgotha event and then further on that woujld like to share?
                                      >  
                                      > Alll good things,
                                      > Dottie
                                      >
                                      > "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                      >
                                      > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: elfuncle coolvibes@uncletaz. com>
                                      > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                      > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:15 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Rudolf Steiner:
                                      >
                                      > http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ 19171113p01. html 
                                      >
                                      > "When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world â€" even if it is only in his feeling â€" is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos â€" the only Being with whom he is able to feel related â€" he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ â€" whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.
                                      >
                                      > Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not â€" and this holds good above all at the present
                                      > time â€" really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.
                                      >
                                      > This, however, is merely what comes to light in crude, external form. In reality, every human being today wants to have his own God and he gives the name of "Monotheism" to the relationship between himself and his own Angelos. And because conditions are so clouded in an age when men's only desire is for perception of the Material, the truth of what I have just said does not occur to them."
                                      >
                                      > ( -- Rudolf Steiner:Behind the Scenes of External Happenings, The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 2, Zurich, 13th November, 1917, GA 178)
                                      >
                                      > Tarjei
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "markhein46" zenboychik@ ..> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I can't find the exact message, but a statement was made recently to the effect that Yahweh is the monotheistic God in Steiner's view. While not putting myself forth as an advocate of the view here described, it is what I have seen repeatedly from RS: Yahweh is an Eloha (Elohim is Hebrew for Exousiai, Spirits of Form, the Forth Hierarchy). He goes to the Moon when it splits off and functions as the god of the Hebrew nation. When a voice speaks to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3, Steiner states that this is the Christ Being speaking through Yahweh.
                                      > >
                                      > > The following quotes are from The Burning Bush section of the website Anthroposophy and the Bible. I cannot speak to their entire accuracy, but they do accord with the Steiner I have read.
                                      > >
                                      > > "Steiner frequently refers to the Elohim as "spirits of form." The role of the Exousiai/Elohim in spiritual evolution is essential, since the human Self has emanated from them. Having their residence in the spiritual spheres of the Sun, the Exousiai/Elohim are specially devoted to the development of Earth and humanity. Yahweh, the leader of the seven Elohim, moved to the spiritual sphere of the Moon for the sake of humanity and took up the task as the divine ruler of the biblical Israelites, destined to receive the incarnation of Christ in the man Jesus."
                                      > >
                                      > > In Ex 3 God reveals to Moses that "I Am" is his "Name."
                                      > >
                                      > > (6) And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (13) Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" (14) God said to Moses, "I AM THE I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, [the]2 `I AM has sent me to you.'" (15) God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus [the] I am [is] to be remembered throughout all generations. . . ."
                                      > >
                                      > > "While heretofore the "name" that was pronounced has been considered to be "Yahweh," it should now be realized that while it was indeed the Eloha Yahweh speaking, he here names himself by the "Name," "I Am." "I Am" is what Moses is instructed to call him in Ex 3,14, "Say this to the people of Israel, `[the] I Am has sent me to you'." The Elohim are the primary rulers of Earth evolution (see I-16). From Occult Science we know that the Eloha Yahweh went with the Moon when it separated from the Earth. As such he was a "moon God," and there is much documentation of this in the Hebrew tradition; but in the service of the Christ he reflected the spiritual light of Christ so that the name "I Am" was his name as a representative of the Christ (see I-7). We know that the Christ multifariously identified himself as the "I Am" in John's Gospel and that this name is identified in Revelation as that of the redeemed."
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > "This passage, "I AM THE I AM," can be understood only when it is seen that Moses stood at the critical point in human evolution when the Ego was making its transition from group or tribal soul to individual soul. Moses himself was gifted with the ancient and atavistic clairvoyance, and could not bring himself fully into the era of the developing "I Am"; hence he could not fully recognize it in the wilderness (Ex 17,6; Num 20,11- 12; Deut 32; 1 Cor 10,4)."
                                      > >
                                      >



                                    • Kim Graae Munch
                                      Abels blood on the ground, Christs blood on the ground. Restless wanderer, Anima Soli. There are mentioned two initiations, the one of Enoch in the start of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 19 6:26 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Message
                                        Abels blood on the ground, Christs blood on the ground.
                                        Restless wanderer, Anima Soli.
                                         
                                        There are mentioned two initiations, the one of Enoch in the start of Atlantis, where enoch became the face of God, and the other in the end of Atlantis, where Abraham was initiated. Both of the falls at the same time as a Deed of Christ.
                                         
                                        Kim
                                         
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                        Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:33 AM
                                        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Cain and Abel

                                         

                                        On Cain and Abel it was interesting to note these two references in the New Testament that speak of Zechariah... .which we also know as John the Baptists father....interesti ng no?
                                         
                                        So, here is the passage about the blood being shed:
                                         
                                        9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
                                              "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
                                         10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."
                                         
                                         
                                        Matthew 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
                                        Luke 11:51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'
                                        You know, another interesting thing is what happens in Genesis just before Moses....we have two Enochs and there is a son and a daughter ....well there is something interesting happening with the male female thing just before Noah comes forth....and interesting that Enoch's first foray speaks of 365 years of living which probably is how we got the days of the year I imagine but I don't know why that would be...also interesting is that Noah also is one that 'walks with God'....along with Enoch....and then I imagine we can take this up to Moses who is in a little boat on the river....well, anyway that's what you get for reading Genesis late at night....whew,
                                        d

                                        "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner
                                        \

                                      • Kim Graae Munch
                                        Kim: About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it s something different: Elisha had been the
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 19 7:45 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Message
                                          Kim:
                                          About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.
                                          Dottie:
                                           
                                          I think we can clearly say that there is no way from a physical standpoint this was a woman as we have to consider that Jehova had already been the accepted way of working in the world, therefore no woman would have been accepted or written about as a healer in the sense that Elisha had been...or so are my thoughts...
                                           
                                          Kim 2:
                                          Jahve is not the Father, Jahve is neutrum, 'he' is the Monotheistic God, and that means he is both The Mother (Shekinah, Sophia), The Father, and The Son (Christ), in that sequence from low to high. You must not make any pictures of your God, but the european christians saw the Father in Jahve. Many Jews saw Shekinah when the talk were about Jahve, as she was the godly being nearest man.
                                           
                                          He is a servant of the God Jahve, but in his soul an echo of the threefold Christ-event lives on. In his soul is the knowledge: “As a prophet of Jahve I must above all things proclaim that in Jahve there lives the Christ who will later on fulfil the Mystery of Golgotha; the Christ who poured His enduring influence into the cosmos through His third experience at the end of the Atlantean time.” Elijah proclaimed the Christ-filled Jahve. For the Christ was indeed living in Jahve, the Jahve-god, but as a reflection of Himself. As the moon reflects the sunlight, so did Jahve reflect the Being who then lived as Christ. Christ caused his Being to be reflected from Jahve or the Jahve-god. But a messenger such as Elijah worked in the after-effects of the threefold Christ-event; we might say that Elijah went ahead of the Nathan Jesus-being, who was passing spiritually from West to East in order to find his way into the course of civilisation and then to be born as one of the Jesus-children.
                                          This reference to the moon should get us to think on the female.
                                          ...
                                           
                                          Kim:

                                          They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                           
                                          Dottie: But Abel is not of Adam.
                                           
                                          Kim 2:
                                          Yes, Adam and Abel are sistersouls and both are children of Sophia/Eve. Adam is father to man, as he was man on the old Moon, he is what we started out as, where Abel/Jesus is what we were going to be.
                                           
                                          Kim:
                                          Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                          Dottie:
                                          I think there is some confusion here...lets see....hmmm if I have to think of one ending their teaching lives it could only be Zarathustra. ...who is said to have been able to reincarnte immediately and also with completely new sheaths...now I don't know that for myself but that is something that was brought forth by Sergei in the John book and I don't recall what his Steiner reference is although I am sure he has one as always....
                                          Why would we say that John the Baptist ended his teaching life when he clearly goes onward....what are you thinking?
                                          Kim 2:
                                          Zarathustra is interesting.
                                          The being behind Zarathustra could very well be female. We know that Zarathustra is an Sun Initiate, and I am pretty sure that it means the level of Angel (or Arch Angel).
                                          Middle east sources say that Abraham and Zarathustra is the same.
                                          Abraham is initiated at the third Deed of Christ.
                                          Steiner mentions Orpheus in connection with this deed, and he says something which have mystified Anthroposophists for long. He said that Orpheus had problems  incorporating the feminine [large amount] in his incarnation. Who would have this problem? A woman born as man!
                                           
                                          Kim
                                           
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
                                          Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:17 AM
                                          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)

                                           

                                          Back in 2003 (Message #584) we had this:
                                          The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:
                                           
                                          What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth's womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls "Blessed."
                                           
                                          Dottie:
                                           
                                          Kim, I never noticed until now that he says that there was an unfallen sister soul to Eve! that is really interesting to consider to find out  more .....unfallen sister soul to Eve.....See I considered the unfallen sister soul to be that of Adam and of Eve.....of when they were one....hmmmm. ...I can now see how Adri can consider that the Mary was the Anthroposophia incarnated for a short period of time...and I always had an issue with this consideration. ..but now I can see how, if this is what is considered, that there was an unfallen sister soul to Adam and another to Eve, one could contemplate such a thing....something doesn't feel right though...... .something. ........or something is right and it leads me to a new thing...we shall see....does Rudolf Steiner really say that there is an unfallen sister soul to Eve?????? Really???? or what are the words that lead one to believe he was sharing this?
                                           
                                          Kim:
                                          And

                                          If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the "prodigal" first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was "the son of God" (Lk 3,38) and the second was "the Son of God." The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

                                          from http://www.bibleand anthroposophy. com/Smith/ main/burning_ bush/charts_ tabs/i87. html .

                                          Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't.
                                           
                                          Dottie: Adam 2 did incarnate... we are talking the Nathan soul, the sister soul did indeed incarnate and did not come under the influence because he was able to overcome him only because the Christ was within him...this is the only way all of us will overcome Lucifer and Ahriman as well....there is no other way as I can see this at this time....
                                           
                                          And while we have Mr. Smith going on about the importance of one unfallen sister soul why wouldn't the other one be just as important if indeed it did too incarnate... and how did this sister soul overcome the influence of Lucifer???? something is amiss here.
                                          Kim:
                                          About the relation between Elijah and Elisha we had the idea that Elisha could be a woman, but I think it's something different: Elisha had been the discipel of Elijah since the Adam incarnation in Lemuria.
                                          Dottie:
                                           
                                          I think we can clearly say that there is no way from a physical standpoint this was a woman as we have to consider that Jehova had already been the accepted way of working in the world, therefore no woman would have been accepted or written about as a healer in the sense that Elisha had been...or so are my thoughts...
                                           
                                          Kim:
                                          As Adam is John the baptist, who is Eve? Zarathustra?
                                           
                                          Dottie
                                           
                                          Well, if we have to follow story type we would say, which is what I was considering a few posts earlier, in that Elizabeth would be Sarah and then that would go back to Eve. But if you are saying that it is said that the Nathan Mary is the unfallen sister soul of Eve, then it would seem to be within her right, if we follow the Burning Bush consideration right....
                                           
                                          See the issue here is this interpenetration that occurs with humans working with the same being....we can see this easily with Shakespeare, Francis Bacon and also King James, they even all look alike. This is the rub in that this interpenetration makes it difficult... I guess the question is why would we want to know? Well, it seems to me that these are the karma lessons of Rudolf Steiner and what he speaks he came to share but he died before this fully occurred.... So, in a way, and he shares how important it is in the Karma III series that we come to recognize our karma...that is clear...and so  how we come to recognize our own past lives is when we can learn also to follow the streams and impulses of others. When we can do this we can easily find the lawfullness of the essence of these connections which then allow us to wake up to our own pasts so we too can realize what our tasks are consciously instead of walking through the fog or thinking we know when really we just really don't and are fooling ourselves.
                                           
                                          Kim:

                                          They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                           
                                          Dottie: But Abel is not of Adam.
                                           
                                          Kim:
                                          Hiram Abiff is the descendant of Cain, which means that Lazarus is Cain, Seth is Solomon, as these two follow each other through time.
                                           
                                          Dottie:
                                          Okay, let me understand  your thinking in this....Abel was the first who shed blood....he was incarnated or Cain wasn't as well....they didn't come through the two different Genesis stories they both appear in the same one...right? If not then what justification is there to say he did not incarnate... if they were both in the same story then I have to see they both incarnated or both did not incarnate... .and then later the tubal cain was the first incarnated along with Seth.
                                           
                                          Kim:
                                          Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                          Dottie:
                                          I think there is some confusion here...lets see....hmmm if I have to think of one ending their teaching lives it could only be Zarathustra. ...who is said to have been able to reincarnte immediately and also with completely new sheaths...now I don't know that for myself but that is something that was brought forth by Sergei in the John book and I don't recall what his Steiner reference is although I am sure he has one as always....
                                          Why would we say that John the Baptist ended his teaching life when he clearly goes onward....what are you thinking?
                                           
                                          All good things,
                                          Dottie
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           


                                          "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner,_._,___

                                        • dottie zold
                                              Kim 2: Jahve is not the Father, Jahve is neutrum, he is the Monotheistic God, and that means he is both The Mother (Shekinah, Sophia), The Father, and
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Aug 19 12:06 PM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                             
                                             
                                            Kim 2:
                                            Jahve is not the Father, Jahve is neutrum, 'he' is the Monotheistic God, and that means he is both The Mother (Shekinah, Sophia), The Father, and The Son (Christ), in that sequence from low to high. You must not make any pictures of your God, but the european christians saw the Father in Jahve. Many Jews saw Shekinah when the talk were about Jahve, as she was the godly being nearest man.
                                             
                                            Dottie:
                                             
                                            Kim,  I understand that Jahve, God, is seen by and called by many names including El Shaddai, the many breasted one, by the Jews. We also have the Muslims who use the term which ends in a feminine turn as well. However when we work from the physical perspective we do also recognize a trinity.
                                             
                                            It seems to me that you do something i used to do which is put them all as one without a singular also element of activity....Shekinah is not Yaweh in the sense you mention here in the earthly world. The Shekinah is the earthly presence of God, not Yaweh as in fullness, but a part of God that is experienced in the physical world in relations to man. We can not just lump them all together nor can we do what the Hindus do either. There are certain qualities that have to be taken into consideration when working in the earthly world. The Shekinah is the earthly presence of the God. Just as Christ came to the earth in physical form so too was/is the Shekinah here or at least so was she called, during the times of old. She too has transformed and we can see this through the Fifth Gospel with the Bat Kol.
                                             
                                            I don't know any Jews who confuse Yahweh with Shekinah. Shekinah is their Grace and connection to God is how I understand my Rabbi.
                                            He is a servant of the God Jahve, but in his soul an echo of the threefold Christ-event lives on. In his soul is the knowledge: “As a prophet of Jahve I must above all things proclaim that in Jahve there lives the Christ who will later on fulfil the Mystery of Golgotha; the Christ who poured His enduring influence into the cosmos through His third experience at the end of the Atlantean time.” Elijah proclaimed the Christ-filled Jahve. For the Christ was indeed living in Jahve, the Jahve-god, but as a reflection of Himself. As the moon reflects the sunlight, so did Jahve reflect the Being who then lived as Christ. Christ caused his Being to be reflected from Jahve or the Jahve-god. But a messenger such as Elijah worked in the after-effects of the threefold Christ-event; we might say that Elijah went ahead of the Nathan Jesus-being, who was passing spiritually from West to East in order to find his way into the course of civilisation and then to be born as one of the Jesus-children.
                                             
                                            Dottie:
                                            Kim, where is this reference from if you can? I don't see things in this manner with the lumping together....again I used to see things this way but then I had to consider from an earthly perspective so that it stays out of the abstract and can relate to humanity in consciousness.
                                            This reference to the moon should get us to think on the female.
                                            ...
                                             
                                            Dottie:
                                            I don't agree that the human being of Elisha was female at all. Again if I have to consider the times that were lived in at that moment this could not be. That's not to say that at the time of Golgotha this being was not a female, but if I have to consider the way things move, especially with certain biographies and at what point, whether male or female, they are usually more prominant, and to me I have definitely recognized a pattern out of my own past biographies which are female which lead me to this understanding, in one sex or the other, not in both. For example, if one large historical personality is found in the male stream a few times and is prominant usually this is how it will remain, same with certain female lineages, they are more prominant as females then when living a male life if they in fact had them.
                                             
                                             
                                            Kim:

                                            They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                             
                                            Dottie: But Abel is not of Adam.
                                             
                                            Kim 2:
                                            Yes, Adam and Abel are sistersouls and both are children of Sophia/Eve. Adam is father to man, as he was man on the old Moon, he is what we started out as, where Abel/Jesus is what we were going to be.
                                             
                                            Dottie: Do you mean of Adam/Eve when they were one? What is your reference for Adam and Abel being sister souls? And if that was so....no, first let me know what is your reference for what is stated above when you have a second. And on your second sentence, when you say Adam is father to man, are you speaking of Adam/Eve known as male female created he them, or are you speaking of Adam as seperate from Eve the female....
                                             
                                            Okay, Kim, have you read Genesis? At what number are you speaking of here when you make the statements directly above? Maybe that will help us out. I can't follow you when you don't have references and only your thoughts...I need references so I can see where you are moving to and from....and let me ask you, what led you to consider Adam and Abel as sister souls, what was the ;process?
                                             
                                             
                                            Kim:
                                            Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                            Dottie:
                                            I think there is some confusion here...lets see....hmmm if I have to think of one ending their teaching lives it could only be Zarathustra. ...who is said to have been able to reincarnte immediately and also with completely new sheaths...now I don't know that for myself but that is something that was brought forth by Sergei in the John book and I don't recall what his Steiner reference is although I am sure he has one as always....
                                            Why would we say that John the Baptist ended his teaching life when he clearly goes onward....what are you thinking?
                                            Kim 2:
                                            Zarathustra is interesting.
                                            The being behind Zarathustra could very well be female. We know that Zarathustra is an Sun Initiate, and I am pretty sure that it means the level of Angel (or Arch Angel).
                                            Middle east sources say that Abraham and Zarathustra is the same.
                                             
                                             
                                            Dottie: What middle east source are you speaking of? It's  not important that the being behind Zarathustra is female or not as this really is just a consideration of 'receiving' and not of importance in the higher worlds in the sense here on earth.
                                             
                                            Zarathustra seems to me to be of the highest order and I just cannot see it any other way...I take him back usually to Enoch but that was an early consideration when looking at pre earthly conditions and the being that carried that was the highest initiate and able to continue to  unite with and lead those who were destined for earthly humanity...he comes from Atlantis and had to change his Being in order to unite with us, he had to have a transformation, and then, if we consider Sergei's words we see him also transforming right at the Turning Point in Time by being able to cast off his etheric and astral bodies and create a whole new one and incarnate immediately...I mean who else in earthly conditions have we heard of in that manner....He was not Moses/Noah and he was not Elijah/John, two who were walked with God but he could and I do think he did, go back to Enoch.
                                             
                                            Following Enoch is the mystery and I can think of none higher than Zarathustra...the term Eoch itself means 'initiation'. If you check out Enoch in Genesis you will find his incarnation and then who he begats but it doesn't say how long he lived and then you hear of Lamech and who he begat and how long he lived, and you also hear of him wounding a man, interesting, and then after a few more beings, you hear of Enoch again. Now, I had to go back and see why I was seeing Enoch again....hmmm I almost wonder if in between these two we will find the two that he gave his etheric and astral bodies too...who was that....Hermes and Moses right?????? well, in any case, when you see Enoch a second time on the next page you realize that the person he begat has the same name on the previous Enoch page but it is now a feminine ending on the name....there is a significance to that.....
                                             
                                            Anyhow, point being is that Zarathustra is the most initiated in earthly and heavenly worlds that I can find in our studies...I can almost find a Count Saint Germain in there but I have to not go there in any case.....
                                             
                                            Abraham is initiated at the third Deed of Christ.
                                            Steiner mentions Orpheus in connection with this deed, and he says something which have mystified Anthroposophists for long. He said that Orpheus had problems  incorporating the feminine [large amount] in his incarnation. Who would have this problem? A woman born as man!
                                             
                                            Dottie:
                                             
                                            Kim, where is this reference about Orpheus? And we have to remember what Orpheus did that might have a clue as to why. But why is this a problem or mystery in any case....And what do you mean 'a woman born as a man'........ are you putting a feminine and masculine element to our I Ams? I don't understand.
                                             
                                            d

                                          • Kim Graae Munch
                                            Kim 2: Jahve is not the Father, Jahve is neutrum, he is the Monotheistic God, and that means he is both The Mother (Shekinah, Sophia), The Father, and The
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Aug 19 2:34 PM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Message
                                              Kim 2:
                                              Jahve is not the Father, Jahve is neutrum, 'he' is the Monotheistic God, and that means he is both The Mother (Shekinah, Sophia), The Father, and The Son (Christ), in that sequence from low to high. You must not make any pictures of your God, but the european christians saw the Father in Jahve. Many Jews saw Shekinah when the talk were about Jahve, as she was the godly being nearest man.
                                               
                                              Dottie:
                                               
                                              Kim,  I understand that Jahve, God, is seen by and called by many names including El Shaddai, the many breasted one, by the Jews. We also have the Muslims who use the term which ends in a feminine turn as well. However when we work from the physical perspective we do also recognize a trinity.
                                               
                                              It seems to me that you do something i used to do which is put them all as one without a singular also element of activity.... Shekinah is not Yaweh in the sense you mention here in the earthly world. The Shekinah is the earthly presence of God, not Yaweh as in fullness, but a part of God that is experienced in the physical world in relations to man. We can not just lump them all together nor can we do what the Hindus do either. There are certain qualities that have to be taken into consideration when working in the earthly world. The Shekinah is the earthly presence of the God. Just as Christ came to the earth in physical form so too was/is the Shekinah here or at least so was she called, during the times of old. She too has transformed and we can see this through the Fifth Gospel with the Bat Kol.
                                               
                                              I don't know any Jews who confuse Yahweh with Shekinah. Shekinah is their Grace and connection to God is how I understand my Rabbi.
                                              Kim 3:
                                              I know, I just thought I didn't have to write all that.
                                              He is a servant of the God Jahve, but in his soul an echo of the threefold Christ-event lives on. In his soul is the knowledge: “As a prophet of Jahve I must above all things proclaim that in Jahve there lives the Christ who will later on fulfil the Mystery of Golgotha; the Christ who poured His enduring influence into the cosmos through His third experience at the end of the Atlantean time.” Elijah proclaimed the Christ-filled Jahve. For the Christ was indeed living in Jahve, the Jahve-god, but as a reflection of Himself. As the moon reflects the sunlight, so did Jahve reflect the Being who then lived as Christ. Christ caused his Being to be reflected from Jahve or the Jahve-god. But a messenger such as Elijah worked in the after-effects of the threefold Christ-event; we might say that Elijah went ahead of the Nathan Jesus-being, who was passing spiritually from West to East in order to find his way into the course of civilisation and then to be born as one of the Jesus-children.
                                               
                                              Dottie:
                                              Kim, where is this reference from if you can? I don't see things in this manner with the lumping together.... again I used to see things this way but then I had to consider from an earthly perspective so that it stays out of the abstract and can relate to humanity in consciousness.
                                              Kim 3:
                                              It's not abstract.
                                              This reference to the moon should get us to think on the female.
                                              ...
                                               
                                              Dottie:
                                              I don't agree that the human being of Elisha was female at all. Again if I have to consider the times that were lived in at that moment this could not be. That's not to say that at the time of Golgotha this being was not a female, but if I have to consider the way things move, especially with certain biographies and at what point, whether male or female, they are usually more prominant, and to me I have definitely recognized a pattern out of my own past biographies which are female which lead me to this understanding, in one sex or the other, not in both. For example, if one large historical personality is found in the male stream a few times and is prominant usually this is how it will remain, same with certain female lineages, they are more prominant as females then when living a male life if they in fact had them.
                                              Kim 3:
                                              I don't see Elisha as female, I see him as the Chela of Elijah.
                                              The Moon Christ is reflected through is Shekinah/Sophia.
                                              Kim:

                                              They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                               
                                              Dottie: But Abel is not of Adam.
                                               
                                              Kim 2:
                                              Yes, Adam and Abel are sistersouls and both are children of Sophia/Eve. Adam is father to man, as he was man on the old Moon, he is what we started out as, where Abel/Jesus is what we were going to be.
                                               
                                              Dottie: Do you mean of Adam/Eve when they were one? What is your reference for Adam and Abel being sister souls? And if that was so....no, first let me know what is your reference for what is stated above when you have a second. And on your second sentence, when you say Adam is father to man, are you speaking of Adam/Eve known as male female created he them, or are you speaking of Adam as seperate from Eve the female....
                                              Kim 3: Adam as separate Androgyne result of the Angels development on the Old Moon. Christ is known by Adam 2 (Smith).
                                              Okay, Kim, have you read Genesis? At what number are you speaking of here when you make the statements directly above? Maybe that will help us out. I can't follow you when you don't have references and only your thoughts...I need references so I can see where you are moving to and from....and let me ask you, what led you to consider Adam and Abel as sister souls, what was the ;process?
                                               
                                               
                                              Kim:
                                              Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                              Dottie:
                                              I think there is some confusion here...lets see....hmmm if I have to think of one ending their teaching lives it could only be Zarathustra. ...who is said to have been able to reincarnte immediately and also with completely new sheaths...now I don't know that for myself but that is something that was brought forth by Sergei in the John book and I don't recall what his Steiner reference is although I am sure he has one as always....
                                              Why would we say that John the Baptist ended his teaching life when he clearly goes onward....what are you thinking?
                                              Kim 3:
                                              Just after Elisha has done his master job as Hiram Abif, Budha raises from Bodhisatva to Buddhahood. Generally we only hear about Adam/Elijah/John B. until Golgotha, with really few exceptions, and about Buddha after Golgotha until he makes the Christ Deed on Mars.
                                              Kim 2:
                                              Zarathustra is interesting.
                                              The being behind Zarathustra could very well be female. We know that Zarathustra is an Sun Initiate, and I am pretty sure that it means the level of Angel (or Arch Angel).
                                              Middle east sources say that Abraham and Zarathustra is the same.
                                               
                                               
                                              Dottie: What middle east source are you speaking of? It's  not important that the being behind Zarathustra is female or not as this really is just a consideration of 'receiving' and not of importance in the higher worlds in the sense here on earth.
                                              Kim 3:
                                              Wikipedia: This name Bram, Abram, was famous in India and Persia: some learned men even allege that he was the same legislator as the one the Greeks called Zoroaster. :
                                              No, even if Zarathusthra is the Earthly form of Sophia?
                                              Zarathustra seems to me to be of the highest order and I just cannot see it any other way...I take him back usually to Enoch but that was an early consideration when looking at pre earthly conditions and the being that carried that was the highest initiate and able to continue to  unite with and lead those who were destined for earthly humanity...he comes from Atlantis and had to change his Being in order to unite with us, he had to have a transformation, and then, if we consider Sergei's words we see him also transforming right at the Turning Point in Time by being able to cast off his etheric and astral bodies and create a whole new one and incarnate immediately. ..I mean who else in earthly conditions have we heard of in that manner....He was not Moses/Noah and he was not Elijah/John, two who were walked with God but he could and I do think he did, go back to Enoch.
                                              Kim 3:
                                              I connect Skythianos with Enoch.
                                              Following Enoch is the mystery and I can think of none higher than Zarathustra. ..the term Eoch itself means 'initiation' . If you check out Enoch in Genesis you will find his incarnation and then who he begats but it doesn't say how long he lived and then you hear of Lamech and who he begat and how long he lived, and you also hear of him wounding a man, interesting, and then after a few more beings, you hear of Enoch again. Now, I had to go back and see why I was seeing Enoch again....hmmm I almost wonder if in between these two we will find the two that he gave his etheric and astral bodies too...who was that....Hermes and Moses right???  Yes ??? well, in any case, when you see Enoch a second time on the next page you realize that the person he begat has the same name on the previous Enoch page but it is now a feminine ending on the name....there is a significance to that.....
                                               
                                              Anyhow, point being is that Zarathustra is the most initiated in earthly and heavenly worlds that I can find in our studies...I can almost find a Count Saint Germain in there but I have to not go there in any case.....
                                               
                                              Kim:
                                              Abraham is initiated at the third Deed of Christ.
                                              Steiner mentions Orpheus in connection with this deed, and he says something which have mystified Anthroposophists for long. He said that Orpheus had problems  incorporating the feminine [large amount] in his incarnation. Who would have this problem? A woman born as man!
                                               
                                              Dottie:
                                               
                                              Kim, where is this reference about Orpheus? And we have to remember what Orpheus did that might have a clue as to why. But why is this a problem or mystery in any case....And what do you mean 'a woman born as a man'........ are you putting a feminine and masculine element to our I Ams? I don't understand.
                                              Kim 3:
                                              A Son of Apollo bore within him as soul what Mysticism designates by the symbol of the ‘feminine’ element; he could not bear all of it within him, because it was in another world. His own feminine soul element was itself in another world to which he had no access but for which he longed, because a part of himself was there. This marvellous inner tragedy of the reincarnated Teacher of former times has been wonderfully preserved in Greek Mythology under the name of ‘Orpheus’ — the name given to the reincarnated Apollo, or “Son of Apollo.”
                                              ...
                                              Thus in this incarnation of Apollo as Orpheus, we have again a sort of descent of a Bodhisattva — if we may use this Eastern term — to Buddha-hood. We might quote a number of such Beings who stand out from age to age as the great Teachers of humanity and who always had a very special experience at the time of their deepest descent. The Buddha experiences the bliss of inspiring the whole of humanity. That Bodhisattva, whose memory is preserved externally under the name of ‘Apollo,’ had an individual experience: he was to prepare the individuality, the quality of the Ego. He experiences the tragedy of the Ego; he experiences the fact that this ego is, in the present state of man as regards this attribute of his, not entirely with him. Man is struggling up to the higher ego. That was foreshadowed for the Greeks by the Buddha or Bodhisattva in Orpheus.  
                                              From "The Christ Impulse and the Development of the Ego-Consciousness, LECTURE 1. Berlin, 25th October, 1909. THE SPHERE OF THE BODHISATTVAS"
                                              Kim 

                                            • dottie zold
                                              Hi Kim, thanks for the references. I think for me its important to read the lecture cycle or sometimes it does seem abstract and just information to me and I
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Aug 19 3:41 PM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi Kim, thanks for the references. I think for me its important to read the lecture cycle or sometimes it does seem abstract and just information to me and I have this need to experience it as all connected within me or its just me repeating or just agreeing with a thing. Agreeing with a thing would be easier if I didn't have this personality that has to find a connection within me.
                                                 
                                                Thanks for taking the time and again for the references, I look forward to reading them.
                                                 
                                                All good things,
                                                Dottie

                                                "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                                --- On Wed, 8/19/09, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

                                                From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
                                                Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                                To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 2:34 PM



                                                Kim 2:
                                                Jahve is not the Father, Jahve is neutrum, 'he' is the Monotheistic God, and that means he is both The Mother (Shekinah, Sophia), The Father, and The Son (Christ), in that sequence from low to high. You must not make any pictures of your God, but the european christians saw the Father in Jahve. Many Jews saw Shekinah when the talk were about Jahve, as she was the godly being nearest man.
                                                 
                                                Dottie:
                                                 
                                                Kim,  I understand that Jahve, God, is seen by and called by many names including El Shaddai, the many breasted one, by the Jews. We also have the Muslims who use the term which ends in a feminine turn as well. However when we work from the physical perspective we do also recognize a trinity.
                                                 
                                                It seems to me that you do something i used to do which is put them all as one without a singular also element of activity.... Shekinah is not Yaweh in the sense you mention here in the earthly world. The Shekinah is the earthly presence of God, not Yaweh as in fullness, but a part of God that is experienced in the physical world in relations to man. We can not just lump them all together nor can we do what the Hindus do either. There are certain qualities that have to be taken into consideration when working in the earthly world. The Shekinah is the earthly presence of the God. Just as Christ came to the earth in physical form so too was/is the Shekinah here or at least so was she called, during the times of old. She too has transformed and we can see this through the Fifth Gospel with the Bat Kol.
                                                 
                                                I don't know any Jews who confuse Yahweh with Shekinah. Shekinah is their Grace and connection to God is how I understand my Rabbi.
                                                Kim 3:
                                                I know, I just thought I didn't have to write all that.
                                                He is a servant of the God Jahve, but in his soul an echo of the threefold Christ-event lives on. In his soul is the knowledge: “As a prophet of Jahve I must above all things proclaim that in Jahve there lives the Christ who will later on fulfil the Mystery of Golgotha; the Christ who poured His enduring influence into the cosmos through His third experience at the end of the Atlantean time.” Elijah proclaimed the Christ-filled Jahve. For the Christ was indeed living in Jahve, the Jahve-god, but as a reflection of Himself. As the moon reflects the sunlight, so did Jahve reflect the Being who then lived as Christ. Christ caused his Being to be reflected from Jahve or the Jahve-god. But a messenger such as Elijah worked in the after-effects of the threefold Christ-event; we might say that Elijah went ahead of the Nathan Jesus-being, who was passing spiritually from West to East in order to find his way into the course of civilisation and then to be born as one of the Jesus-children.
                                                 
                                                Dottie:
                                                Kim, where is this reference from if you can? I don't see things in this manner with the lumping together.... again I used to see things this way but then I had to consider from an earthly perspective so that it stays out of the abstract and can relate to humanity in consciousness.
                                                Kim 3:
                                                It's not abstract.
                                                This reference to the moon should get us to think on the female.
                                                ...
                                                 
                                                Dottie:
                                                I don't agree that the human being of Elisha was female at all. Again if I have to consider the times that were lived in at that moment this could not be. That's not to say that at the time of Golgotha this being was not a female, but if I have to consider the way things move, especially with certain biographies and at what point, whether male or female, they are usually more prominant, and to me I have definitely recognized a pattern out of my own past biographies which are female which lead me to this understanding, in one sex or the other, not in both. For example, if one large historical personality is found in the male stream a few times and is prominant usually this is how it will remain, same with certain female lineages, they are more prominant as females then when living a male life if they in fact had them.
                                                Kim 3:
                                                I don't see Elisha as female, I see him as the Chela of Elijah.
                                                The Moon Christ is reflected through is Shekinah/Sophia.
                                                Kim:

                                                They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                                 
                                                Dottie: But Abel is not of Adam.
                                                 
                                                Kim 2:
                                                Yes, Adam and Abel are sistersouls and both are children of Sophia/Eve. Adam is father to man, as he was man on the old Moon, he is what we started out as, where Abel/Jesus is what we were going to be.
                                                 
                                                Dottie: Do you mean of Adam/Eve when they were one? What is your reference for Adam and Abel being sister souls? And if that was so....no, first let me know what is your reference for what is stated above when you have a second. And on your second sentence, when you say Adam is father to man, are you speaking of Adam/Eve known as male female created he them, or are you speaking of Adam as seperate from Eve the female....
                                                Kim 3: Adam as separate Androgyne result of the Angels development on the Old Moon. Christ is known by Adam 2 (Smith).
                                                Okay, Kim, have you read Genesis? At what number are you speaking of here when you make the statements directly above? Maybe that will help us out. I can't follow you when you don't have references and only your thoughts...I need references so I can see where you are moving to and from....and let me ask you, what led you to consider Adam and Abel as sister souls, what was the ;process?
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Kim:
                                                Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                                Dottie:
                                                I think there is some confusion here...lets see....hmmm if I have to think of one ending their teaching lives it could only be Zarathustra. ...who is said to have been able to reincarnte immediately and also with completely new sheaths...now I don't know that for myself but that is something that was brought forth by Sergei in the John book and I don't recall what his Steiner reference is although I am sure he has one as always....
                                                Why would we say that John the Baptist ended his teaching life when he clearly goes onward....what are you thinking?
                                                Kim 3:
                                                Just after Elisha has done his master job as Hiram Abif, Budha raises from Bodhisatva to Buddhahood. Generally we only hear about Adam/Elijah/John B. until Golgotha, with really few exceptions, and about Buddha after Golgotha until he makes the Christ Deed on Mars.
                                                Kim 2:
                                                Zarathustra is interesting.
                                                The being behind Zarathustra could very well be female. We know that Zarathustra is an Sun Initiate, and I am pretty sure that it means the level of Angel (or Arch Angel).
                                                Middle east sources say that Abraham and Zarathustra is the same.
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Dottie: What middle east source are you speaking of? It's  not important that the being behind Zarathustra is female or not as this really is just a consideration of 'receiving' and not of importance in the higher worlds in the sense here on earth.
                                                Kim 3:
                                                Wikipedia: This name Bram, Abram, was famous in India and Persia: some learned men even allege that he was the same legislator as the one the Greeks called Zoroaster. :
                                                No, even if Zarathusthra is the Earthly form of Sophia?
                                                Zarathustra seems to me to be of the highest order and I just cannot see it any other way...I take him back usually to Enoch but that was an early consideration when looking at pre earthly conditions and the being that carried that was the highest initiate and able to continue to  unite with and lead those who were destined for earthly humanity...he comes from Atlantis and had to change his Being in order to unite with us, he had to have a transformation, and then, if we consider Sergei's words we see him also transforming right at the Turning Point in Time by being able to cast off his etheric and astral bodies and create a whole new one and incarnate immediately. ..I mean who else in earthly conditions have we heard of in that manner....He was not Moses/Noah and he was not Elijah/John, two who were walked with God but he could and I do think he did, go back to Enoch.
                                                Kim 3:
                                                I connect Skythianos with Enoch.
                                                Following Enoch is the mystery and I can think of none higher than Zarathustra. ..the term Eoch itself means 'initiation' . If you check out Enoch in Genesis you will find his incarnation and then who he begats but it doesn't say how long he lived and then you hear of Lamech and who he begat and how long he lived, and you also hear of him wounding a man, interesting, and then after a few more beings, you hear of Enoch again. Now, I had to go back and see why I was seeing Enoch again....hmmm I almost wonder if in between these two we will find the two that he gave his etheric and astral bodies too...who was that....Hermes and Moses right???  Yes ??? well, in any case, when you see Enoch a second time on the next page you realize that the person he begat has the same name on the previous Enoch page but it is now a feminine ending on the name....there is a significance to that.....
                                                 
                                                Anyhow, point being is that Zarathustra is the most initiated in earthly and heavenly worlds that I can find in our studies...I can almost find a Count Saint Germain in there but I have to not go there in any case.....
                                                 
                                                Kim:
                                                Abraham is initiated at the third Deed of Christ.
                                                Steiner mentions Orpheus in connection with this deed, and he says something which have mystified Anthroposophists for long. He said that Orpheus had problems  incorporating the feminine [large amount] in his incarnation. Who would have this problem? A woman born as man!
                                                 
                                                Dottie:
                                                 
                                                Kim, where is this reference about Orpheus? And we have to remember what Orpheus did that might have a clue as to why. But why is this a problem or mystery in any case....And what do you mean 'a woman born as a man'........ are you putting a feminine and masculine element to our I Ams? I don't understand.
                                                Kim 3:
                                                A Son of Apollo bore within him as soul what Mysticism designates by the symbol of the ‘feminine’ element; he could not bear all of it within him, because it was in another world. His own feminine soul element was itself in another world to which he had no access but for which he longed, because a part of himself was there. This marvellous inner tragedy of the reincarnated Teacher of former times has been wonderfully preserved in Greek Mythology under the name of ‘Orpheus’ — the name given to the reincarnated Apollo, or “Son of Apollo.”
                                                ...
                                                Thus in this incarnation of Apollo as Orpheus, we have again a sort of descent of a Bodhisattva — if we may use this Eastern term — to Buddha-hood. We might quote a number of such Beings who stand out from age to age as the great Teachers of humanity and who always had a very special experience at the time of their deepest descent. The Buddha experiences the bliss of inspiring the whole of humanity. That Bodhisattva, whose memory is preserved externally under the name of ‘Apollo,’ had an individual experience: he was to prepare the individuality, the quality of the Ego. He experiences the tragedy of the Ego; he experiences the fact that this ego is, in the present state of man as regards this attribute of his, not entirely with him. Man is struggling up to the higher ego. That was foreshadowed for the Greeks by the Buddha or Bodhisattva in Orpheus.  
                                                From "The Christ Impulse and the Development of the Ego-Consciousness, LECTURE 1. Berlin, 25th October, 1909. THE SPHERE OF THE BODHISATTVAS"
                                                Kim 




                                              • dottie zold
                                                The infinity sign, the figure 8 is really a 6 and a 9 :) so it looks in Elderberries when we azured the place:))   d If there is something more powerful than
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Aug 19 7:30 PM
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  The infinity sign, the figure 8 is really a 6 and a 9 :) so it looks in Elderberries when we azured the place:))
                                                   
                                                  d

                                                  "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                                  --- On Wed, 8/19/09, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                                                  From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                                  Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 3:41 PM





                                                  Hi Kim, thanks for the references. I think for me its important to read the lecture cycle or sometimes it does seem abstract and just information to me and I have this need to experience it as all connected within me or its just me repeating or just agreeing with a thing. Agreeing with a thing would be easier if I didn't have this personality that has to find a connection within me.
                                                   
                                                  Thanks for taking the time and again for the references, I look forward to reading them.
                                                   
                                                  All good things,
                                                  Dottie

                                                  "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

                                                  --- On Wed, 8/19/09, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

                                                  From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
                                                  Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Yahweh and the (Godhead)
                                                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 2:34 PM



                                                  Kim 2:
                                                  Jahve is not the Father, Jahve is neutrum, 'he' is the Monotheistic God, and that means he is both The Mother (Shekinah, Sophia), The Father, and The Son (Christ), in that sequence from low to high. You must not make any pictures of your God, but the european christians saw the Father in Jahve. Many Jews saw Shekinah when the talk were about Jahve, as she was the godly being nearest man.
                                                   
                                                  Dottie:
                                                   
                                                  Kim,  I understand that Jahve, God, is seen by and called by many names including El Shaddai, the many breasted one, by the Jews. We also have the Muslims who use the term which ends in a feminine turn as well. However when we work from the physical perspective we do also recognize a trinity.
                                                   
                                                  It seems to me that you do something i used to do which is put them all as one without a singular also element of activity.... Shekinah is not Yaweh in the sense you mention here in the earthly world. The Shekinah is the earthly presence of God, not Yaweh as in fullness, but a part of God that is experienced in the physical world in relations to man. We can not just lump them all together nor can we do what the Hindus do either. There are certain qualities that have to be taken into consideration when working in the earthly world. The Shekinah is the earthly presence of the God. Just as Christ came to the earth in physical form so too was/is the Shekinah here or at least so was she called, during the times of old. She too has transformed and we can see this through the Fifth Gospel with the Bat Kol.
                                                   
                                                  I don't know any Jews who confuse Yahweh with Shekinah. Shekinah is their Grace and connection to God is how I understand my Rabbi.
                                                  Kim 3:
                                                  I know, I just thought I didn't have to write all that.
                                                  He is a servant of the God Jahve, but in his soul an echo of the threefold Christ-event lives on. In his soul is the knowledge: “As a prophet of Jahve I must above all things proclaim that in Jahve there lives the Christ who will later on fulfil the Mystery of Golgotha; the Christ who poured His enduring influence into the cosmos through His third experience at the end of the Atlantean time.” Elijah proclaimed the Christ-filled Jahve. For the Christ was indeed living in Jahve, the Jahve-god, but as a reflection of Himself. As the moon reflects the sunlight, so did Jahve reflect the Being who then lived as Christ. Christ caused his Being to be reflected from Jahve or the Jahve-god. But a messenger such as Elijah worked in the after-effects of the threefold Christ-event; we might say that Elijah went ahead of the Nathan Jesus-being, who was passing spiritually from West to East in order to find his way into the course of civilisation and then to be born as one of the Jesus-children.
                                                   
                                                  Dottie:
                                                  Kim, where is this reference from if you can? I don't see things in this manner with the lumping together.... again I used to see things this way but then I had to consider from an earthly perspective so that it stays out of the abstract and can relate to humanity in consciousness.
                                                  Kim 3:
                                                  It's not abstract.
                                                  This reference to the moon should get us to think on the female.
                                                  ...
                                                   
                                                  Dottie:
                                                  I don't agree that the human being of Elisha was female at all. Again if I have to consider the times that were lived in at that moment this could not be. That's not to say that at the time of Golgotha this being was not a female, but if I have to consider the way things move, especially with certain biographies and at what point, whether male or female, they are usually more prominant, and to me I have definitely recognized a pattern out of my own past biographies which are female which lead me to this understanding, in one sex or the other, not in both. For example, if one large historical personality is found in the male stream a few times and is prominant usually this is how it will remain, same with certain female lineages, they are more prominant as females then when living a male life if they in fact had them.
                                                  Kim 3:
                                                  I don't see Elisha as female, I see him as the Chela of Elijah.
                                                  The Moon Christ is reflected through is Shekinah/Sophia.
                                                  Kim:

                                                  They get three children: Cain, Abel, and Seth.
                                                   
                                                  Dottie: But Abel is not of Adam.
                                                   
                                                  Kim 2:
                                                  Yes, Adam and Abel are sistersouls and both are children of Sophia/Eve. Adam is father to man, as he was man on the old Moon, he is what we started out as, where Abel/Jesus is what we were going to be.
                                                   
                                                  Dottie: Do you mean of Adam/Eve when they were one? What is your reference for Adam and Abel being sister souls? And if that was so....no, first let me know what is your reference for what is stated above when you have a second. And on your second sentence, when you say Adam is father to man, are you speaking of Adam/Eve known as male female created he them, or are you speaking of Adam as seperate from Eve the female....
                                                  Kim 3: Adam as separate Androgyne result of the Angels development on the Old Moon. Christ is known by Adam 2 (Smith).
                                                  Okay, Kim, have you read Genesis? At what number are you speaking of here when you make the statements directly above? Maybe that will help us out. I can't follow you when you don't have references and only your thoughts...I need references so I can see where you are moving to and from....and let me ask you, what led you to consider Adam and Abel as sister souls, what was the ;process?
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Kim:
                                                  Who is then Abel, who didn't incarnate on Earth? It's the Nathan Jesus who first incarnates when his sister-soul Adam has ended his job as teacher of mankind. He gave over his mantle to Elisha, before he went East.

                                                  Dottie:
                                                  I think there is some confusion here...lets see....hmmm if I have to think of one ending their teaching lives it could only be Zarathustra. ...who is said to have been able to reincarnte immediately and also with completely new sheaths...now I don't know that for myself but that is something that was brought forth by Sergei in the John book and I don't recall what his Steiner reference is although I am sure he has one as always....
                                                  Why would we say that John the Baptist ended his teaching life when he clearly goes onward....what are you thinking?
                                                  Kim 3:
                                                  Just after Elisha has done his master job as Hiram Abif, Budha raises from Bodhisatva to Buddhahood. Generally we only hear about Adam/Elijah/John B. until Golgotha, with really few exceptions, and about Buddha after Golgotha until he makes the Christ Deed on Mars.
                                                  Kim 2:
                                                  Zarathustra is interesting.
                                                  The being behind Zarathustra could very well be female. We know that Zarathustra is an Sun Initiate, and I am pretty sure that it means the level of Angel (or Arch Angel).
                                                  Middle east sources say that Abraham and Zarathustra is the same.
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Dottie: What middle east source are you speaking of? It's  not important that the being behind Zarathustra is female or not as this really is just a consideration of 'receiving' and not of importance in the higher worlds in the sense here on earth.
                                                  Kim 3:
                                                  Wikipedia: This name Bram, Abram, was famous in India and Persia: some learned men even allege that he was the same legislator as the one the Greeks called Zoroaster. :
                                                  No, even if Zarathusthra is the Earthly form of Sophia?
                                                  Zarathustra seems to me to be of the highest order and I just cannot see it any other way...I take him back usually to Enoch but that was an early consideration when looking at pre earthly conditions and the being that carried that was the highest initiate and able to continue to  unite with and lead those who were destined for earthly humanity...he comes from Atlantis and had to change his Being in order to unite with us, he had to have a transformation, and then, if we consider Sergei's words we see him also transforming right at the Turning Point in Time by being able to cast off his etheric and astral bodies and create a whole new one and incarnate immediately. ..I mean who else in earthly conditions have we heard of in that manner....He was not Moses/Noah and he was not Elijah/John, two who were walked with God but he could and I do think he did, go back to Enoch.
                                                  Kim 3:
                                                  I connect Skythianos with Enoch.
                                                  Following Enoch is the mystery and I can think of none higher than Zarathustra. ..the term Eoch itself means 'initiation' . If you check out Enoch in Genesis you will find his incarnation and then who he begats but it doesn't say how long he lived and then you hear of Lamech and who he begat and how long he lived, and you also hear of him wounding a man, interesting, and then after a few more beings, you hear of Enoch again. Now, I had to go back and see why I was seeing Enoch again....hmmm I almost wonder if in between these two we will find the two that he gave his etheric and astral bodies too...who was that....Hermes and Moses right???  Yes ??? well, in any case, when you see Enoch a second time on the next page you realize that the person he begat has the same name on the previous Enoch page but it is now a feminine ending on the name....there is a significance to that.....
                                                   
                                                  Anyhow, point being is that Zarathustra is the most initiated in earthly and heavenly worlds that I can find in our studies...I can almost find a Count Saint Germain in there but I have to not go there in any case.....
                                                   
                                                  Kim:
                                                  Abraham is initiated at the third Deed of Christ.
                                                  Steiner mentions Orpheus in connection with this deed, and he says something which have mystified Anthroposophists for long. He said that Orpheus had problems  incorporating the feminine [large amount] in his incarnation. Who would have this problem? A woman born as man!
                                                   
                                                  Dottie:
                                                   
                                                  Kim, where is this reference about Orpheus? And we have to remember what Orpheus did that might have a clue as to why. But why is this a problem or mystery in any case....And what do you mean 'a woman born as a man'........ are you putting a feminine and masculine element to our I Ams? I don't understand.
                                                  Kim 3:
                                                  A Son of Apollo bore within him as soul what Mysticism designates by the symbol of the ‘feminine’ element; he could not bear all of it within him, because it was in another world. His own feminine soul element was itself in another world to which he had no access but for which he longed, because a part of himself was there. This marvellous inner tragedy of the reincarnated Teacher of former times has been wonderfully preserved in Greek Mythology under the name of ‘Orpheus’ — the name given to the reincarnated Apollo, or “Son of Apollo.”
                                                  ...
                                                  Thus in this incarnation of Apollo as Orpheus, we have again a sort of descent of a Bodhisattva — if we may use this Eastern term — to Buddha-hood. We might quote a number of such Beings who stand out from age to age as the great Teachers of humanity and who always had a very special experience at the time of their deepest descent. The Buddha experiences the bliss of inspiring the whole of humanity. That Bodhisattva, whose memory is preserved externally under the name of ‘Apollo,’ had an individual experience: he was to prepare the individuality, the quality of the Ego. He experiences the tragedy of the Ego; he experiences the fact that this ego is, in the present state of man as regards this attribute of his, not entirely with him. Man is struggling up to the higher ego. That was foreshadowed for the Greeks by the Buddha or Bodhisattva in Orpheus.  
                                                  From "The Christ Impulse and the Development of the Ego-Consciousness, LECTURE 1. Berlin, 25th October, 1909. THE SPHERE OF THE BODHISATTVAS"
                                                  Kim 





                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.