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Re: Referent error in Apokalypse und Priesterwirken, DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG

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  • ottmar12
    Hi there, as I`m one of the few German speaking on this list, I feel obliged to reply. The Text of GA 346 is very doubtful indeed, I think the text sources for
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 29 11:24 AM
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      Hi there,

      as I`m one of the few German speaking on this list, I feel obliged to reply. The Text of GA 346 is very doubtful indeed, I think the text sources for these late lectures of Rudolf Steiner are among the poorest. There are better sources even for many lectures held for the ES, in GA 266 I – III than for this Priesterapokalypse as we call these lectures shortly in Germany. In fact, it is a hybrid text, made up of many different notes, written down by the attending persons of this course. See also on page 332 following in the present German edition of GA 346.   A priest of the Christ.Comm. was quite upset with this text version, as it differs greatly from the versions they had used for decades. See:    Wolfgang Gädeke : Wortgetreu und unverfälscht? Haben wir in der Gesamtausgabe Texte Rudolf Steiners? So there was quite a discussion in magazines, open letters etc. about the wording of this GA 346 at the time.

      Long before GA was published in Dornach, you could buy a pirate copy with the text used by the Christian Community priest.  

       

      I`m always ready to help but as I'm almost on my way to Weimar and the Baltic Sea I have to keep this short. I`ll just write the part  you mentioned from the pirate copy:

       

      Es brauchen nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein, können eben Seelen sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber des Ichs entbehren. Man wird schon darauf  kommen, wenn man auf diese Menschen stößt. Der Priester muß dies wissen, denn vor allen Dingen inbezug auf solche Sachen ist ja Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und auch diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt sind, leiden von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß sogar die Frage entstehen: Wie kann man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber verhalten?

       

      The problem really lies in the `echt beseelt', and I think the English version gives an interpretation of it, it says `who have healthy souls'. I personally think this is a correct interpretation.  And again, we don't know what Rudolf Steiner said, perhaps he said something like `recht beseelt, oder in der rechten Weise besselt, also mit einem Ich begabt' `who have healthy souls, and healthy here meaning in the right or healthy way, that is gifted with an Ich, an I, with a spiritual principle, not only a souli principle'.

      Well, I couldn't read the rest of the text right now.  But I'd say, these men who only have a soul principle and not a spiritual principle can very well be a problem for a community (Rudolf Steiner spoke of communities and to leaders of communities), they don't understand things as the others do, they are perhaps more `down to earth', practical, also loving, but they don't have that `fiery, wild, revolutionary' principle in them, they slow down a community, hamper the spiritual principle that wants to manifest in communities or circumstances allowing also in individualities.

      Ottmar


      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Frank and other German speaking,
      > I had a discussion some time ago with a guy called Tom, who were a
      > little proud of some writing he had made ten years ago, which I think
      > builds on an error the referent made, not of something Steiner said, as
      > the German text is not "velformed".
      >
      > This text is quite illogical, in the first part it says that normal
      > people suffers by those unfortunate, and in the second part it says that
      > it's vital for the unfortunates development that they are in contact
      > with normal men and it's our responsibility to help them:
      > > These are not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be souls
      > that develop as far as the soul realm but lack an `I'. One is sure to
      > notice if one comes across such a person, and the priest must know about
      > it, for it will have a bearing on the quality of community in his
      > congregation. Above all, people who have healthy souls suffer as a
      > consequence of those who go about as human locusts. So the question can
      > arise, and indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards such
      > people.
      >
      > > This can be quite a difficult task, for such people often have deep
      > feelings; they can have very deep feelings and yet one notices that
      > there is no actual individuality in them. Of course the fact that there
      > is no individuality in them must be carefully concealed from them for
      > otherwise they would go mad. Despite having to conceal this from them
      > one must ensure that such souls—for soul they are, even if not
      > spirit— can make contact with other human beings and can develop in
      > their wake, so that they can, as it were, tag along with the others.
      > The consequence are that people with an unhealthy soul don't suffer,
      > which is nonsense.
      >
      > If we look at the German original, as provided by Thomasius:
      > Es brauchen durchaus nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein,
      > es können eben Seelen sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber
      > des Ichs entbehren. Man wird schon darauf kommen, wenn man
      > auf diese Menschen stößt. Der Priester muß dies wissen, denn das
      > beeinflußt ja die Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und vor
      > allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt sind,
      > von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als Menschen-Heuschrecken
      > durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß sogar die Frage
      > entstehen: Wie hat man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber zu
      > verhalten?
      > Solchen Menschen gegenüber hat man oftmals eine recht
      > schwierige Aufgabe, weil sie durchaus tief fühlend sind; sie
      > können
      > außerordentlich tief fühlend sein, man merkt aber, es steckt
      > nicht eine eigentliche Individualität in ihnen. Nur hat man ihnen
      > das natürlich sorgfältig zu verbergen, daß keine
      > Individualität in
      > ihnen steckt, denn sonst wäre ja die notwendige Folge der Wahnsinn.
      > Aber trotzdem man ihnen das zu verbergen hat, handelt es
      > sich darum, daß man für solche Seelen - Seelen sind es ja doch,
      > wenn auch nicht Geister -, alles so einrichtet, daß diese Menschen
      > den Anschluß finden an andere Menschen, in deren Gefolge sie
      > sich entwickeln können, daß sie also gewissermaßen Mitgehende
      > dieser anderen werden.
      > From Apokalypse und Priesterwirken
      > <http://www.anthroposophieonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=a\
      > rticle&id=3651:dreizehnter-vortrag-dornach-17-september-1924&catid=244:g\
      > a-346-priesterkurse-v&Itemid=5> DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG, Dornach, 17.
      > September 1924.
      > The first text are bad in its construction and it could be by reason of
      > the referent and the physical state of Steiner.
      >
      > A version which is more consistent with the second part would be:
      > Und vor allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt
      > sind,von solchen Personen Seelen, die eigentlich als
      > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen.
      > The new translation:
      > Above all, these men suffers who are animated with such souls who goes
      > through the world as human locusts.
      > Seen from an esoteric view, there is no reason that man should be in
      > spiritual danger from these souls, in the same way that we are in no
      > spiritual danger from other incarnated beings. And the rest of the text
      > are consistent with this view.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Kim
      >
    • Kim
      Hi Ottmar, So you mean that those unfortunate people who are at the state we were back in Lemuria, before we got our spirit, is a danger for man? When Steiner
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 29 12:01 PM
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        Hi Ottmar,
        So you mean that those unfortunate people who are at the state we were back in Lemuria, before we got our spirit, is a danger for man?

        When Steiner says it is necessary for us to help them, it is not understandable that he don't tell how to do that without taking precautions against the dangerous whatever.

        It's illogical, there is no reason a being between animal and man should be dangerous for man.

        It's more logical that it is the word 'Personen' which is wrong, partly because the word 'Menchen' is normally used, and it gives perfectly meaning if the word references the being itself, as with Seelen instead of Personen. No change in 'echt beeselt' makes any change in the strange sentence, which I would say is bad language, and Steiner may be difficult to read, but he didn't have bad language.

        Regards,
        Kim

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi there,
        >
        > as I`m one of the few German speaking on this list, I feel obliged to
        > reply. The Text of GA 346 is very doubtful indeed, I think the text
        > sources for these late lectures of Rudolf Steiner are among the poorest.
        > There are better sources even for many lectures held for the ES, in GA
        > 266 I – III than for this Priesterapokalypse as we call these
        > lectures shortly in Germany. In fact, it is a hybrid text, made up of
        > many different notes, written down by the attending persons of this
        > course. See also on page 332 following in the present German edition of
        > GA 346. A priest of the Christ.Comm. was quite upset with this text
        > version, as it differs greatly from the versions they had used for
        > decades. See: Wolfgang Gädeke : Wortgetreu und unverfälscht?
        > Haben wir in der Gesamtausgabe Texte Rudolf Steiners? So there was quite
        > a discussion in magazines, open letters etc. about the wording of this
        > GA 346 at the time.
        >
        > Long before GA was published in Dornach, you could buy a pirate copy
        > with the text used by the Christian Community priest.
        >
        >
        >
        > I`m always ready to help but as I'm almost on my way to Weimar and
        > the Baltic Sea I have to keep this short. I`ll just write the part you
        > mentioned from the pirate copy:
        >
        >
        >
        > Es brauchen nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein, können eben Seelen
        > sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber des Ichs entbehren. Man wird
        > schon darauf kommen, wenn man auf diese Menschen stößt. Der Priester
        > muß dies wissen, denn vor allen Dingen inbezug auf solche Sachen ist
        > ja Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und auch diejenigen Menschen, die
        > echt beseelt sind, leiden von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als
        > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß sogar
        > die Frage entstehen: Wie kann man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber
        > verhalten?
        >
        >
        >
        > The problem really lies in the `echt beseelt', and I think the
        > English version gives an interpretation of it, it says `who have
        > healthy souls'. I personally think this is a correct interpretation.
        > And again, we don't know what Rudolf Steiner said, perhaps he said
        > something like `recht beseelt, oder in der rechten Weise besselt,
        > also mit einem Ich begabt' `who have healthy souls, and healthy
        > here meaning in the right or healthy way, that is gifted with an Ich, an
        > I, with a spiritual principle, not only a souli principle'.
        >
        > Well, I couldn't read the rest of the text right now. But I'd
        > say, these men who only have a soul principle and not a spiritual
        > principle can very well be a problem for a community (Rudolf Steiner
        > spoke of communities and to leaders of communities), they don't
        > understand things as the others do, they are perhaps more `down to
        > earth', practical, also loving, but they don't have that
        > `fiery, wild, revolutionary' principle in them, they slow down a
        > community, hamper the spiritual principle that wants to manifest in
        > communities or circumstances allowing also in individualities.
        >
        > Ottmar
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Frank and other German speaking,
        > > I had a discussion some time ago with a guy called Tom, who were a
        > > little proud of some writing he had made ten years ago, which I think
        > > builds on an error the referent made, not of something Steiner said,
        > as
        > > the German text is not "velformed".
        > >
        > > This text is quite illogical, in the first part it says that normal
        > > people suffers by those unfortunate, and in the second part it says
        > that
        > > it's vital for the unfortunates development that they are in contact
        > > with normal men and it's our responsibility to help them:
        > > > These are not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be
        > souls
        > > that develop as far as the soul realm but lack an `I'. One is sure to
        > > notice if one comes across such a person, and the priest must know
        > about
        > > it, for it will have a bearing on the quality of community in his
        > > congregation. Above all, people who have healthy souls suffer as a
        > > consequence of those who go about as human locusts. So the question
        > can
        > > arise, and indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards such
        > > people.
        > >
        > > > This can be quite a difficult task, for such people often have deep
        > > feelings; they can have very deep feelings and yet one notices that
        > > there is no actual individuality in them. Of course the fact that
        > there
        > > is no individuality in them must be carefully concealed from them for
        > > otherwise they would go mad. Despite having to conceal this from them
        > > one must ensure that such souls—for soul they are, even if not
        > > spirit— can make contact with other human beings and can develop
        > in
        > > their wake, so that they can, as it were, tag along with the others.
        > > The consequence are that people with an unhealthy soul don't suffer,
        > > which is nonsense.
        > >
        > > If we look at the German original, as provided by Thomasius:
        > > Es brauchen durchaus nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein,
        > > es können eben Seelen sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber
        > > des Ichs entbehren. Man wird schon darauf kommen, wenn man
        > > auf diese Menschen stößt. Der Priester muß dies wissen, denn das
        > > beeinflußt ja die Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und vor
        > > allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt sind,
        > > von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als Menschen-Heuschrecken
        > > durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß sogar die Frage
        > > entstehen: Wie hat man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber zu
        > > verhalten?
        > > Solchen Menschen gegenüber hat man oftmals eine recht
        > > schwierige Aufgabe, weil sie durchaus tief fühlend sind; sie
        > > können
        > > außerordentlich tief fühlend sein, man merkt aber, es steckt
        > > nicht eine eigentliche Individualität in ihnen. Nur hat man ihnen
        > > das natürlich sorgfältig zu verbergen, daß keine
        > > Individualität in
        > > ihnen steckt, denn sonst wäre ja die notwendige Folge der Wahnsinn.
        > > Aber trotzdem man ihnen das zu verbergen hat, handelt es
        > > sich darum, daß man für solche Seelen - Seelen sind es ja doch,
        > > wenn auch nicht Geister -, alles so einrichtet, daß diese Menschen
        > > den Anschluß finden an andere Menschen, in deren Gefolge sie
        > > sich entwickeln können, daß sie also gewissermaßen Mitgehende
        > > dieser anderen werden.
        > > From Apokalypse und Priesterwirken
        > >
        > <http://www.anthroposophieonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=a\
        > \
        > >
        > rticle&id=3651:dreizehnter-vortrag-dornach-17-september-1924&catid=244:g\
        > \
        > > a-346-priesterkurse-v&Itemid=5> DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG, Dornach, 17.
        > > September 1924.
        > > The first text are bad in its construction and it could be by reason
        > of
        > > the referent and the physical state of Steiner.
        > >
        > > A version which is more consistent with the second part would be:
        > > Und vor allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt
        > > sind,von solchen Personen Seelen, die eigentlich als
        > > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen.
        > > The new translation:
        > > Above all, these men suffers who are animated with such souls who goes
        > > through the world as human locusts.
        > > Seen from an esoteric view, there is no reason that man should be in
        > > spiritual danger from these souls, in the same way that we are in no
        > > spiritual danger from other incarnated beings. And the rest of the
        > text
        > > are consistent with this view.
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > > Kim
        > >
        >
      • Adrian Hansen
        Hi Kim, This conversation about beings( humans) without a spirit ( I) has been discussed before and then as now I feel pretty disgusted that anyone can even
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 30 12:39 PM
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          Hi Kim,
          This conversation about beings( humans) without a spirit ( I) has been discussed before and then as now I feel pretty disgusted that anyone can even make a judgement on how to treat these beings and how anyone can even distinguise these beings without proper spiritual vision. It is a subject that to me is totally taboe as judgement of these matters should not belong to any human being. So I think you are right that we have gone through this stage of development also and so have these beings a right to their own development. What I don't understand though is why Steiner says that if these beings were aware of their situation it could harm them. Is it because they realize that they have no 'eternal'life or is there another reason for that ? Kind Regards, Adrian

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Ottmar,
          > So you mean that those unfortunate people who are at the state we were
          > back in Lemuria, before we got our spirit, is a danger for man?
          >
          > When Steiner says it is necessary for us to help them, it is not
          > understandable that he don't tell how to do that without taking
          > precautions against the dangerous whatever.
          >
          > It's illogical, there is no reason a being between animal and man should
          > be dangerous for man.
          >
          > It's more logical that it is the word 'Personen' which is wrong, partly
          > because the word 'Menchen' is normally used, and it gives perfectly
          > meaning if the word references the being itself, as with Seelen instead
          > of Personen. No change in 'echt beeselt' makes any change in the strange
          > sentence, which I would say is bad language, and Steiner may be
          > difficult to read, but he didn't have bad language.
          >
          > Regards,
          > Kim
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi there,
          > >
          > > as I`m one of the few German speaking on this list, I feel obliged to
          > > reply. The Text of GA 346 is very doubtful indeed, I think the text
          > > sources for these late lectures of Rudolf Steiner are among the
          > poorest.
          > > There are better sources even for many lectures held for the ES, in GA
          > > 266 I – III than for this Priesterapokalypse as we call these
          > > lectures shortly in Germany. In fact, it is a hybrid text, made up of
          > > many different notes, written down by the attending persons of this
          > > course. See also on page 332 following in the present German edition
          > of
          > > GA 346. A priest of the Christ.Comm. was quite upset with this text
          > > version, as it differs greatly from the versions they had used for
          > > decades. See: Wolfgang Gädeke : Wortgetreu und unverfälscht?
          > > Haben wir in der Gesamtausgabe Texte Rudolf Steiners? So there was
          > quite
          > > a discussion in magazines, open letters etc. about the wording of this
          > > GA 346 at the time.
          > >
          > > Long before GA was published in Dornach, you could buy a pirate copy
          > > with the text used by the Christian Community priest.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I`m always ready to help but as I'm almost on my way to Weimar and
          > > the Baltic Sea I have to keep this short. I`ll just write the part
          > you
          > > mentioned from the pirate copy:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Es brauchen nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein, können eben Seelen
          > > sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber des Ichs entbehren. Man wird
          > > schon darauf kommen, wenn man auf diese Menschen stößt. Der
          > Priester
          > > muß dies wissen, denn vor allen Dingen inbezug auf solche Sachen
          > ist
          > > ja Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und auch diejenigen Menschen, die
          > > echt beseelt sind, leiden von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als
          > > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß
          > sogar
          > > die Frage entstehen: Wie kann man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber
          > > verhalten?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The problem really lies in the `echt beseelt', and I think the
          > > English version gives an interpretation of it, it says `who have
          > > healthy souls'. I personally think this is a correct interpretation.
          > > And again, we don't know what Rudolf Steiner said, perhaps he said
          > > something like `recht beseelt, oder in der rechten Weise besselt,
          > > also mit einem Ich begabt' `who have healthy souls, and healthy
          > > here meaning in the right or healthy way, that is gifted with an Ich,
          > an
          > > I, with a spiritual principle, not only a souli principle'.
          > >
          > > Well, I couldn't read the rest of the text right now. But I'd
          > > say, these men who only have a soul principle and not a spiritual
          > > principle can very well be a problem for a community (Rudolf Steiner
          > > spoke of communities and to leaders of communities), they don't
          > > understand things as the others do, they are perhaps more `down to
          > > earth', practical, also loving, but they don't have that
          > > `fiery, wild, revolutionary' principle in them, they slow down a
          > > community, hamper the spiritual principle that wants to manifest in
          > > communities or circumstances allowing also in individualities.
          > >
          > > Ottmar
          > >
          > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi Frank and other German speaking,
          > > > I had a discussion some time ago with a guy called Tom, who were a
          > > > little proud of some writing he had made ten years ago, which I
          > think
          > > > builds on an error the referent made, not of something Steiner said,
          > > as
          > > > the German text is not "velformed".
          > > >
          > > > This text is quite illogical, in the first part it says that normal
          > > > people suffers by those unfortunate, and in the second part it says
          > > that
          > > > it's vital for the unfortunates development that they are in contact
          > > > with normal men and it's our responsibility to help them:
          > > > > These are not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be
          > > souls
          > > > that develop as far as the soul realm but lack an `I'. One is sure
          > to
          > > > notice if one comes across such a person, and the priest must know
          > > about
          > > > it, for it will have a bearing on the quality of community in his
          > > > congregation. Above all, people who have healthy souls suffer as a
          > > > consequence of those who go about as human locusts. So the question
          > > can
          > > > arise, and indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards
          > such
          > > > people.
          > > >
          > > > > This can be quite a difficult task, for such people often have
          > deep
          > > > feelings; they can have very deep feelings and yet one notices that
          > > > there is no actual individuality in them. Of course the fact that
          > > there
          > > > is no individuality in them must be carefully concealed from them
          > for
          > > > otherwise they would go mad. Despite having to conceal this from
          > them
          > > > one must ensure that such souls—for soul they are, even if not
          > > > spirit— can make contact with other human beings and can develop
          > > in
          > > > their wake, so that they can, as it were, tag along with the others.
          > > > The consequence are that people with an unhealthy soul don't suffer,
          > > > which is nonsense.
          > > >
          > > > If we look at the German original, as provided by Thomasius:
          > > > Es brauchen durchaus nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein,
          > > > es können eben Seelen sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber
          > > > des Ichs entbehren. Man wird schon darauf kommen, wenn man
          > > > auf diese Menschen stößt. Der Priester muß dies wissen, denn
          > das
          > > > beeinflußt ja die Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und vor
          > > > allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt sind,
          > > > von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als Menschen-Heuschrecken
          > > > durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß sogar die Frage
          > > > entstehen: Wie hat man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber zu
          > > > verhalten?
          > > > Solchen Menschen gegenüber hat man oftmals eine recht
          > > > schwierige Aufgabe, weil sie durchaus tief fühlend sind; sie
          > > > können
          > > > außerordentlich tief fühlend sein, man merkt aber, es steckt
          > > > nicht eine eigentliche Individualität in ihnen. Nur hat man ihnen
          > > > das natürlich sorgfältig zu verbergen, daß keine
          > > > Individualität in
          > > > ihnen steckt, denn sonst wäre ja die notwendige Folge der
          > Wahnsinn.
          > > > Aber trotzdem man ihnen das zu verbergen hat, handelt es
          > > > sich darum, daß man für solche Seelen - Seelen sind es ja
          > doch,
          > > > wenn auch nicht Geister -, alles so einrichtet, daß diese
          > Menschen
          > > > den Anschluß finden an andere Menschen, in deren Gefolge sie
          > > > sich entwickeln können, daß sie also gewissermaßen
          > Mitgehende
          > > > dieser anderen werden.
          > > > From Apokalypse und Priesterwirken
          > > >
          > >
          > <http://www.anthroposophieonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=a\
          > \
          > > \
          > > >
          > >
          > rticle&id=3651:dreizehnter-vortrag-dornach-17-september-1924&catid=244:g\
          > \
          > > \
          > > > a-346-priesterkurse-v&Itemid=5> DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG, Dornach, 17.
          > > > September 1924.
          > > > The first text are bad in its construction and it could be by reason
          > > of
          > > > the referent and the physical state of Steiner.
          > > >
          > > > A version which is more consistent with the second part would be:
          > > > Und vor allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt
          > > > sind,von solchen Personen Seelen, die eigentlich als
          > > > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen.
          > > > The new translation:
          > > > Above all, these men suffers who are animated with such souls who
          > goes
          > > > through the world as human locusts.
          > > > Seen from an esoteric view, there is no reason that man should be in
          > > > spiritual danger from these souls, in the same way that we are in no
          > > > spiritual danger from other incarnated beings. And the rest of the
          > > text
          > > > are consistent with this view.
          > > >
          > > > Regards,
          > > > Kim
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • sim1dmg
          Dear Adrian, You took your words out of my mouth! I agree wholehearted, btw I just wrote to Kim about it. I just can think the person(s) who took these notes
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 30 1:13 PM
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            Dear Adrian,

            You took your words out of my mouth! I agree wholehearted, btw I just wrote to Kim about it. I just can think the person(s) who took these notes were under highly luciferic influence.  I wonder if any priest ever identified a locust in his own family, like, say, his grandma; or do locust have a separate genealogy? I find it harms the backbone principle of humanity as a brotherhood of potentially equals. 

             Hugs, Simone


            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Adrian Hansen" <anthropop1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Kim,
            > This conversation about beings( humans) without a spirit ( I) has been discussed before and then as now I feel pretty disgusted that anyone can even make a judgement on how to treat these beings and how anyone can even distinguise these beings without proper spiritual vision. It is a subject that to me is totally taboe as judgement of these matters should not belong to any human being. So I think you are right that we have gone through this stage of development also and so have these beings a right to their own development. What I don't understand though is why Steiner says that if these beings were aware of their situation it could harm them. Is it because they realize that they have no 'eternal'life or is there another reason for that ? Kind Regards, Adrian
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Ottmar,
            > > So you mean that those unfortunate people who are at the state we were
            > > back in Lemuria, before we got our spirit, is a danger for man?
            > >
            > > When Steiner says it is necessary for us to help them, it is not
            > > understandable that he don't tell how to do that without taking
            > > precautions against the dangerous whatever.
            > >
            > > It's illogical, there is no reason a being between animal and man should
            > > be dangerous for man.
            > >
            > > It's more logical that it is the word 'Personen' which is wrong, partly
            > > because the word 'Menchen' is normally used, and it gives perfectly
            > > meaning if the word references the being itself, as with Seelen instead
            > > of Personen. No change in 'echt beeselt' makes any change in the strange
            > > sentence, which I would say is bad language, and Steiner may be
            > > difficult to read, but he didn't have bad language.
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > > Kim
            > >
            > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hi there,
            > > >
            > > > as I`m one of the few German speaking on this list, I feel obliged to
            > > > reply. The Text of GA 346 is very doubtful indeed, I think the text
            > > > sources for these late lectures of Rudolf Steiner are among the
            > > poorest.
            > > > There are better sources even for many lectures held for the ES, in GA
            > > > 266 I – III than for this Priesterapokalypse as we call these
            > > > lectures shortly in Germany. In fact, it is a hybrid text, made up of
            > > > many different notes, written down by the attending persons of this
            > > > course. See also on page 332 following in the present German edition
            > > of
            > > > GA 346. A priest of the Christ.Comm. was quite upset with this text
            > > > version, as it differs greatly from the versions they had used for
            > > > decades. See: Wolfgang Gädeke : Wortgetreu und unverfälscht?
            > > > Haben wir in der Gesamtausgabe Texte Rudolf Steiners? So there was
            > > quite
            > > > a discussion in magazines, open letters etc. about the wording of this
            > > > GA 346 at the time.
            > > >
            > > > Long before GA was published in Dornach, you could buy a pirate copy
            > > > with the text used by the Christian Community priest.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I`m always ready to help but as I'm almost on my way to Weimar and
            > > > the Baltic Sea I have to keep this short. I`ll just write the part
            > > you
            > > > mentioned from the pirate copy:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Es brauchen nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein, können eben Seelen
            > > > sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber des Ichs entbehren. Man wird
            > > > schon darauf kommen, wenn man auf diese Menschen stößt. Der
            > > Priester
            > > > muß dies wissen, denn vor allen Dingen inbezug auf solche Sachen
            > > ist
            > > > ja Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und auch diejenigen Menschen, die
            > > > echt beseelt sind, leiden von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als
            > > > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß
            > > sogar
            > > > die Frage entstehen: Wie kann man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber
            > > > verhalten?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > The problem really lies in the `echt beseelt', and I think the
            > > > English version gives an interpretation of it, it says `who have
            > > > healthy souls'. I personally think this is a correct interpretation.
            > > > And again, we don't know what Rudolf Steiner said, perhaps he said
            > > > something like `recht beseelt, oder in der rechten Weise besselt,
            > > > also mit einem Ich begabt' `who have healthy souls, and healthy
            > > > here meaning in the right or healthy way, that is gifted with an Ich,
            > > an
            > > > I, with a spiritual principle, not only a souli principle'.
            > > >
            > > > Well, I couldn't read the rest of the text right now. But I'd
            > > > say, these men who only have a soul principle and not a spiritual
            > > > principle can very well be a problem for a community (Rudolf Steiner
            > > > spoke of communities and to leaders of communities), they don't
            > > > understand things as the others do, they are perhaps more `down to
            > > > earth', practical, also loving, but they don't have that
            > > > `fiery, wild, revolutionary' principle in them, they slow down a
            > > > community, hamper the spiritual principle that wants to manifest in
            > > > communities or circumstances allowing also in individualities.
            > > >
            > > > Ottmar
            > > >
            > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi Frank and other German speaking,
            > > > > I had a discussion some time ago with a guy called Tom, who were a
            > > > > little proud of some writing he had made ten years ago, which I
            > > think
            > > > > builds on an error the referent made, not of something Steiner said,
            > > > as
            > > > > the German text is not "velformed".
            > > > >
            > > > > This text is quite illogical, in the first part it says that normal
            > > > > people suffers by those unfortunate, and in the second part it says
            > > > that
            > > > > it's vital for the unfortunates development that they are in contact
            > > > > with normal men and it's our responsibility to help them:
            > > > > > These are not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be
            > > > souls
            > > > > that develop as far as the soul realm but lack an `I'. One is sure
            > > to
            > > > > notice if one comes across such a person, and the priest must know
            > > > about
            > > > > it, for it will have a bearing on the quality of community in his
            > > > > congregation. Above all, people who have healthy souls suffer as a
            > > > > consequence of those who go about as human locusts. So the question
            > > > can
            > > > > arise, and indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards
            > > such
            > > > > people.
            > > > >
            > > > > > This can be quite a difficult task, for such people often have
            > > deep
            > > > > feelings; they can have very deep feelings and yet one notices that
            > > > > there is no actual individuality in them. Of course the fact that
            > > > there
            > > > > is no individuality in them must be carefully concealed from them
            > > for
            > > > > otherwise they would go mad. Despite having to conceal this from
            > > them
            > > > > one must ensure that such souls—for soul they are, even if not
            > > > > spirit— can make contact with other human beings and can develop
            > > > in
            > > > > their wake, so that they can, as it were, tag along with the others.
            > > > > The consequence are that people with an unhealthy soul don't suffer,
            > > > > which is nonsense.
            > > > >
            > > > > If we look at the German original, as provided by Thomasius:
            > > > > Es brauchen durchaus nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein,
            > > > > es können eben Seelen sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber
            > > > > des Ichs entbehren. Man wird schon darauf kommen, wenn man
            > > > > auf diese Menschen stößt. Der Priester muß dies wissen, denn
            > > das
            > > > > beeinflußt ja die Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und vor
            > > > > allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt sind,
            > > > > von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als Menschen-Heuschrecken
            > > > > durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß sogar die Frage
            > > > > entstehen: Wie hat man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber zu
            > > > > verhalten?
            > > > > Solchen Menschen gegenüber hat man oftmals eine recht
            > > > > schwierige Aufgabe, weil sie durchaus tief fühlend sind; sie
            > > > > können
            > > > > außerordentlich tief fühlend sein, man merkt aber, es steckt
            > > > > nicht eine eigentliche Individualität in ihnen. Nur hat man ihnen
            > > > > das natürlich sorgfältig zu verbergen, daß keine
            > > > > Individualität in
            > > > > ihnen steckt, denn sonst wäre ja die notwendige Folge der
            > > Wahnsinn.
            > > > > Aber trotzdem man ihnen das zu verbergen hat, handelt es
            > > > > sich darum, daß man für solche Seelen - Seelen sind es ja
            > > doch,
            > > > > wenn auch nicht Geister -, alles so einrichtet, daß diese
            > > Menschen
            > > > > den Anschluß finden an andere Menschen, in deren Gefolge sie
            > > > > sich entwickeln können, daß sie also gewissermaßen
            > > Mitgehende
            > > > > dieser anderen werden.
            > > > > From Apokalypse und Priesterwirken
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > <http://www.anthroposophieonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=a\
            > > \
            > > > \
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > rticle&id=3651:dreizehnter-vortrag-dornach-17-september-1924&catid=244:g\
            > > \
            > > > \
            > > > > a-346-priesterkurse-v&Itemid=5> DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG, Dornach, 17.
            > > > > September 1924.
            > > > > The first text are bad in its construction and it could be by reason
            > > > of
            > > > > the referent and the physical state of Steiner.
            > > > >
            > > > > A version which is more consistent with the second part would be:
            > > > > Und vor allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt
            > > > > sind,von solchen Personen Seelen, die eigentlich als
            > > > > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen.
            > > > > The new translation:
            > > > > Above all, these men suffers who are animated with such souls who
            > > goes
            > > > > through the world as human locusts.
            > > > > Seen from an esoteric view, there is no reason that man should be in
            > > > > spiritual danger from these souls, in the same way that we are in no
            > > > > spiritual danger from other incarnated beings. And the rest of the
            > > > text
            > > > > are consistent with this view.
            > > > >
            > > > > Regards,
            > > > > Kim
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >

          • Kim Graae Munch
            Hi Adrian, I have thought about that also, but I havent found a good answer yet. That they don t have a spirit, that they don t have an higher I may mean that
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 30 1:42 PM
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              Message
              Hi Adrian,
               
              I have thought about that also, but I havent found a good answer yet. That they don't have a spirit, that they don't have an higher I may mean that they are not following the law of karma. They are working on the interface between the Astral body and the Ego, maybe on the Sentient Soul, Sentient body, but it's guesses.
               
              They don't have spirit, but they still are human-to-be, so they will be full humans at the next planet Jupiter. I don't think they would have been born on Earth if it wasn't for that population explosion, but I am not sure, as I don't know how much chance play in the development on this Earth.
               
              Kind Regards,
              Kim
               
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Hansen
              Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:39 PM
              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Referent error in Apokalypse und Priesterwirken, DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG

               

              Hi Kim,
              This conversation about beings( humans) without a spirit ( I) has been discussed before and then as now I feel pretty disgusted that anyone can even make a judgement on how to treat these beings and how anyone can even distinguise these beings without proper spiritual vision. It is a subject that to me is totally taboe as judgement of these matters should not belong to any human being. So I think you are right that we have gone through this stage of development also and so have these beings a right to their own development. What I don't understand though is why Steiner says that if these beings were aware of their situation it could harm them. Is it because they realize that they have no 'eternal'life or is there another reason for that ? Kind Regards, Adrian

              --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Ottmar,
              > So you mean that those unfortunate people who are at the state we were
              > back in Lemuria, before we got our spirit, is a danger for man?
              >
              > When Steiner says it is necessary for us to help them, it is not
              > understandable that he don't tell how to do that without taking
              > precautions against the dangerous whatever.
              >
              > It's illogical, there is no reason a being between animal and man should
              > be dangerous for man.
              >
              > It's more logical that it is the word 'Personen' which is wrong, partly
              > because the word 'Menchen' is normally used, and it gives perfectly
              > meaning if the word references the being itself, as with Seelen instead
              > of Personen. No change in 'echt beeselt' makes any change in the strange
              > sentence, which I would say is bad language, and Steiner may be
              > difficult to read, but he didn't have bad language.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Kim
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi there,
              > >
              > > as I`m one of the few German speaking on this list, I feel obliged to
              > > reply. The Text of GA 346 is very doubtful indeed, I think the text
              > > sources for these late lectures of Rudolf Steiner are among the
              > poorest.
              > > There are better sources even for many lectures held for the ES, in GA
              > > 266 I – III than for this Priesterapokalypse as we call these
              > > lectures shortly in Germany. In fact, it is a hybrid text, made up of
              > > many different notes, written down by the attending persons of this
              > > course. See also on page 332 following in the present German edition
              > of
              > > GA 346. A priest of the Christ.Comm. was quite upset with this text
              > > version, as it differs greatly from the versions they had used for
              > > decades. See: Wolfgang Gädeke : Wortgetreu und unverfälscht?
              > > Haben wir in der Gesamtausgabe Texte Rudolf Steiners? So there was
              > quite
              > > a discussion in magazines, open letters etc. about the wording of this
              > > GA 346 at the time.
              > >
              > > Long before GA was published in Dornach, you could buy a pirate copy
              > > with the text used by the Christian Community priest.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I`m always ready to help but as I'm almost on my way to Weimar and
              > > the Baltic Sea I have to keep this short. I`ll just write the part
              > you
              > > mentioned from the pirate copy:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Es brauchen nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein, können eben Seelen
              > > sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber des Ichs entbehren. Man wird
              > > schon darauf kommen, wenn man auf diese Menschen stößt. Der
              > Priester
              > > muß dies wissen, denn vor allen Dingen inbezug auf solche Sachen
              > ist
              > > ja Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und auch diejenigen Menschen, die
              > > echt beseelt sind, leiden von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als
              > > Menschen-Heuschreck en durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß
              > sogar
              > > die Frage entstehen: Wie kann man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber
              > > verhalten?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > The problem really lies in the `echt beseelt', and I think the
              > > English version gives an interpretation of it, it says `who have
              > > healthy souls'. I personally think this is a correct interpretation.
              > > And again, we don't know what Rudolf Steiner said, perhaps he said
              > > something like `recht beseelt, oder in der rechten Weise besselt,
              > > also mit einem Ich begabt' `who have healthy souls, and healthy
              > > here meaning in the right or healthy way, that is gifted with an Ich,
              > an
              > > I, with a spiritual principle, not only a souli principle'.
              > >
              > > Well, I couldn't read the rest of the text right now. But I'd
              > > say, these men who only have a soul principle and not a spiritual
              > > principle can very well be a problem for a community (Rudolf Steiner
              > > spoke of communities and to leaders of communities) , they don't
              > > understand things as the others do, they are perhaps more `down to
              > > earth', practical, also loving, but they don't have that
              > > `fiery, wild, revolutionary' principle in them, they slow down a
              > > community, hamper the spiritual principle that wants to manifest in
              > > communities or circumstances allowing also in individualities.
              > >
              > > Ottmar
              > >
              > > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Frank and other German speaking,
              > > > I had a discussion some time ago with a guy called Tom, who were a
              > > > little proud of some writing he had made ten years ago, which I
              > think
              > > > builds on an error the referent made, not of something Steiner said,
              > > as
              > > > the German text is not "velformed".
              > > >
              > > > This text is quite illogical, in the first part it says that normal
              > > > people suffers by those unfortunate, and in the second part it says
              > > that
              > > > it's vital for the unfortunates development that they are in contact
              > > > with normal men and it's our responsibility to help them:
              > > > > These are not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be
              > > souls
              > > > that develop as far as the soul realm but lack an `I'. One is sure
              > to
              > > > notice if one comes across such a person, and the priest must know
              > > about
              > > > it, for it will have a bearing on the quality of community in his
              > > > congregation. Above all, people who have healthy souls suffer as a
              > > > consequence of those who go about as human locusts. So the question
              > > can
              > > > arise, and indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards
              > such
              > > > people.
              > > >
              > > > > This can be quite a difficult task, for such people often have
              > deep
              > > > feelings; they can have very deep feelings and yet one notices that
              > > > there is no actual individuality in them. Of course the fact that
              > > there
              > > > is no individuality in them must be carefully concealed from them
              > for
              > > > otherwise they would go mad. Despite having to conceal this from
              > them
              > > > one must ensure that such souls—for soul they are, even if not
              > > > spirit— can make contact with other human beings and can develop
              > > in
              > > > their wake, so that they can, as it were, tag along with the others.
              > > > The consequence are that people with an unhealthy soul don't suffer,
              > > > which is nonsense.
              > > >
              > > > If we look at the German original, as provided by Thomasius:
              > > > Es brauchen durchaus nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein,
              > > > es können eben Seelen sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber
              > > > des Ichs entbehren. Man wird schon darauf kommen, wenn man
              > > > auf diese Menschen stößt. Der Priester muß dies wissen, denn
              > das
              > > > beeinflußt ja die Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und vor
              > > > allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt sind,
              > > > von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als Menschen-Heuschreck en
              > > > durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß sogar die Frage
              > > > entstehen: Wie hat man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber zu
              > > > verhalten?
              > > > Solchen Menschen gegenüber hat man oftmals eine recht
              > > > schwierige Aufgabe, weil sie durchaus tief fühlend sind; sie
              > > > können
              > > > außerordentlich tief fühlend sein, man merkt aber, es steckt
              > > > nicht eine eigentliche Individualitä t in ihnen. Nur hat man ihnen
              > > > das natürlich sorgfältig zu verbergen, daß keine
              > > > Individualitä t in
              > > > ihnen steckt, denn sonst wäre ja die notwendige Folge der
              > Wahnsinn.
              > > > Aber trotzdem man ihnen das zu verbergen hat, handelt es
              > > > sich darum, daß man für solche Seelen - Seelen sind es ja
              > doch,
              > > > wenn auch nicht Geister -, alles so einrichtet, daß diese
              > Menschen
              > > > den Anschluß finden an andere Menschen, in deren Gefolge sie
              > > > sich entwickeln können, daß sie also gewissermaßen
              > Mitgehende
              > > > dieser anderen werden.
              > > > From Apokalypse und Priesterwirken
              > > >
              > >
              > <http://www.anthropo sophieonline. net/index. php?option= com_content& view=a\
              > \
              > > \
              > > >
              > >
              > rticle&id=3651: dreizehnter- vortrag-dornach- 17-september- 1924&catid= 244:g\
              > \
              > > \
              > > > a-346-priesterkurse -v&Itemid= 5> DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG, Dornach, 17.
              > > > September 1924.
              > > > The first text are bad in its construction and it could be by reason
              > > of
              > > > the referent and the physical state of Steiner.
              > > >
              > > > A version which is more consistent with the second part would be:
              > > > Und vor allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt
              > > > sind,von solchen Personen Seelen, die eigentlich als
              > > > Menschen-Heuschreck en durch die Welt gehen.
              > > > The new translation:
              > > > Above all, these men suffers who are animated with such souls who
              > goes
              > > > through the world as human locusts.
              > > > Seen from an esoteric view, there is no reason that man should be in
              > > > spiritual danger from these souls, in the same way that we are in no
              > > > spiritual danger from other incarnated beings. And the rest of the
              > > text
              > > > are consistent with this view.
              > > >
              > > > Regards,
              > > > Kim
              > > >
              > >
              >

            • Kim
              I just remembered something.Before man got his spirit we were split in four group souls, known by the Ox, Lion. Eagle, and Man (Aquarius). These four groups
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 30 2:25 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                I just remembered something.
                Before man got his spirit we were split in four group souls, known by the Ox, Lion. Eagle, and Man (Aquarius). These four groups are already formed back on the old Moon.
                Also known from the writers of the four Gospels.
                It may relate.

                I see this primarily as an theoretic explanation necessary to understand the underlying reality, but we should be careful not to put this into practical use except if you are a full fledged Initiate, as I think we may do a lot of damage as we don't know what we do.

                Another thing are that we have a tendency to look down at others who have not reached as long as we in whatever we are comparing with. In the same way as we give something new to the universe as the Angels don't have, in the same way are they giving something to the universe that we don't have. And as we are of a wave before their wave, we have and will in the future have responsibility toward them and should further their progress as they will be part of our progress.

                Four Group Souls

                Regards,
                Kim

                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Graae Munch" <kimgm@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Adrian,
                >
                > I have thought about that also, but I havent found a good answer yet. That
                > they don't have a spirit, that they don't have an higher I may mean that
                > they are not following the law of karma. They are working on the interface
                > between the Astral body and the Ego, maybe on the Sentient Soul, Sentient
                > body, but it's guesses.
                >
                > They don't have spirit, but they still are human-to-be, so they will be full
                > humans at the next planet Jupiter. I don't think they would have been born
                > on Earth if it wasn't for that population explosion, but I am not sure, as I
                > don't know how much chance play in the development on this Earth.
                >
                > Kind Regards,
                > Kim
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Hansen
                > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:39 PM
                > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Referent error in Apokalypse und
                > Priesterwirken, DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Kim,
                > This conversation about beings( humans) without a spirit ( I) has been
                > discussed before and then as now I feel pretty disgusted that anyone can
                > even make a judgement on how to treat these beings and how anyone can even
                > distinguise these beings without proper spiritual vision. It is a subject
                > that to me is totally taboe as judgement of these matters should not belong
                > to any human being. So I think you are right that we have gone through this
                > stage of development also and so have these beings a right to their own
                > development. What I don't understand though is why Steiner says that if
                > these beings were aware of their situation it could harm them. Is it because
                > they realize that they have no 'eternal'life or is there another reason for
                > that ? Kind Regards, Adrian
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
                > tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Ottmar,
                > > So you mean that those unfortunate people who are at the state we were
                > > back in Lemuria, before we got our spirit, is a danger for man?
                > >
                > > When Steiner says it is necessary for us to help them, it is not
                > > understandable that he don't tell how to do that without taking
                > > precautions against the dangerous whatever.
                > >
                > > It's illogical, there is no reason a being between animal and man should
                > > be dangerous for man.
                > >
                > > It's more logical that it is the word 'Personen' which is wrong, partly
                > > because the word 'Menchen' is normally used, and it gives perfectly
                > > meaning if the word references the being itself, as with Seelen instead
                > > of Personen. No change in 'echt beeselt' makes any change in the strange
                > > sentence, which I would say is bad language, and Steiner may be
                > > difficult to read, but he didn't have bad language.
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > > Kim
                > >
                > > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
                > tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hi there,
                > > >
                > > > as I`m one of the few German speaking on this list, I feel obliged to
                > > > reply. The Text of GA 346 is very doubtful indeed, I think the text
                > > > sources for these late lectures of Rudolf Steiner are among the
                > > poorest.
                > > > There are better sources even for many lectures held for the ES, in GA
                > > > 266 I – III than for this Priesterapokalypse as we call these
                > > > lectures shortly in Germany. In fact, it is a hybrid text, made up of
                > > > many different notes, written down by the attending persons of this
                > > > course. See also on page 332 following in the present German edition
                > > of
                > > > GA 346. A priest of the Christ.Comm. was quite upset with this text
                > > > version, as it differs greatly from the versions they had used for
                > > > decades. See: Wolfgang Gädeke : Wortgetreu und unverfälscht?
                > > > Haben wir in der Gesamtausgabe Texte Rudolf Steiners? So there was
                > > quite
                > > > a discussion in magazines, open letters etc. about the wording of this
                > > > GA 346 at the time.
                > > >
                > > > Long before GA was published in Dornach, you could buy a pirate copy
                > > > with the text used by the Christian Community priest.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I`m always ready to help but as I'm almost on my way to Weimar and
                > > > the Baltic Sea I have to keep this short. I`ll just write the part
                > > you
                > > > mentioned from the pirate copy:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Es brauchen nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein, können eben Seelen
                > > > sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber des Ichs entbehren. Man wird
                > > > schon darauf kommen, wenn man auf diese Menschen stößt. Der
                > > Priester
                > > > muß dies wissen, denn vor allen Dingen inbezug auf solche Sachen
                > > ist
                > > > ja Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und auch diejenigen Menschen, die
                > > > echt beseelt sind, leiden von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als
                > > > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß
                > > sogar
                > > > die Frage entstehen: Wie kann man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber
                > > > verhalten?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > The problem really lies in the `echt beseelt', and I think the
                > > > English version gives an interpretation of it, it says `who have
                > > > healthy souls'. I personally think this is a correct interpretation.
                > > > And again, we don't know what Rudolf Steiner said, perhaps he said
                > > > something like `recht beseelt, oder in der rechten Weise besselt,
                > > > also mit einem Ich begabt' `who have healthy souls, and healthy
                > > > here meaning in the right or healthy way, that is gifted with an Ich,
                > > an
                > > > I, with a spiritual principle, not only a souli principle'.
                > > >
                > > > Well, I couldn't read the rest of the text right now. But I'd
                > > > say, these men who only have a soul principle and not a spiritual
                > > > principle can very well be a problem for a community (Rudolf Steiner
                > > > spoke of communities and to leaders of communities), they don't
                > > > understand things as the others do, they are perhaps more `down to
                > > > earth', practical, also loving, but they don't have that
                > > > `fiery, wild, revolutionary' principle in them, they slow down a
                > > > community, hamper the spiritual principle that wants to manifest in
                > > > communities or circumstances allowing also in individualities.
                > > >
                > > > Ottmar
                > > >
                > > > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
                > tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Frank and other German speaking,
                > > > > I had a discussion some time ago with a guy called Tom, who were a
                > > > > little proud of some writing he had made ten years ago, which I
                > > think
                > > > > builds on an error the referent made, not of something Steiner said,
                > > > as
                > > > > the German text is not "velformed".
                > > > >
                > > > > This text is quite illogical, in the first part it says that normal
                > > > > people suffers by those unfortunate, and in the second part it says
                > > > that
                > > > > it's vital for the unfortunates development that they are in contact
                > > > > with normal men and it's our responsibility to help them:
                > > > > > These are not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be
                > > > souls
                > > > > that develop as far as the soul realm but lack an `I'. One is sure
                > > to
                > > > > notice if one comes across such a person, and the priest must know
                > > > about
                > > > > it, for it will have a bearing on the quality of community in his
                > > > > congregation. Above all, people who have healthy souls suffer as a
                > > > > consequence of those who go about as human locusts. So the question
                > > > can
                > > > > arise, and indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards
                > > such
                > > > > people.
                > > > >
                > > > > > This can be quite a difficult task, for such people often have
                > > deep
                > > > > feelings; they can have very deep feelings and yet one notices that
                > > > > there is no actual individuality in them. Of course the fact that
                > > > there
                > > > > is no individuality in them must be carefully concealed from them
                > > for
                > > > > otherwise they would go mad. Despite having to conceal this from
                > > them
                > > > > one must ensure that such souls—for soul they are, even if not
                > > > > spirit— can make contact with other human beings and can develop
                > > > in
                > > > > their wake, so that they can, as it were, tag along with the others.
                > > > > The consequence are that people with an unhealthy soul don't suffer,
                > > > > which is nonsense.
                > > > >
                > > > > If we look at the German original, as provided by Thomasius:
                > > > > Es brauchen durchaus nicht immer böse Seelen zu sein,
                > > > > es können eben Seelen sein, die bis zum Seelischen kommen, aber
                > > > > des Ichs entbehren. Man wird schon darauf kommen, wenn man
                > > > > auf diese Menschen stößt. Der Priester muß dies wissen, denn
                > > das
                > > > > beeinflußt ja die Gemeinschaft unter den Menschen. Und vor
                > > > > allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt sind,
                > > > > von solchen Personen, die eigentlich als Menschen-Heuschrecken
                > > > > durch die Welt gehen. Und es kann und muß sogar die Frage
                > > > > entstehen: Wie hat man sich solchen Menschen gegenüber zu
                > > > > verhalten?
                > > > > Solchen Menschen gegenüber hat man oftmals eine recht
                > > > > schwierige Aufgabe, weil sie durchaus tief fühlend sind; sie
                > > > > können
                > > > > außerordentlich tief fühlend sein, man merkt aber, es steckt
                > > > > nicht eine eigentliche Individualität in ihnen. Nur hat man ihnen
                > > > > das natürlich sorgfältig zu verbergen, daß keine
                > > > > Individualität in
                > > > > ihnen steckt, denn sonst wäre ja die notwendige Folge der
                > > Wahnsinn.
                > > > > Aber trotzdem man ihnen das zu verbergen hat, handelt es
                > > > > sich darum, daß man für solche Seelen - Seelen sind es ja
                > > doch,
                > > > > wenn auch nicht Geister -, alles so einrichtet, daß diese
                > > Menschen
                > > > > den Anschluß finden an andere Menschen, in deren Gefolge sie
                > > > > sich entwickeln können, daß sie also gewissermaßen
                > > Mitgehende
                > > > > dieser anderen werden.
                > > > > From Apokalypse und Priesterwirken
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > <http://www.anthropo
                > <http://www.anthroposophieonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=a>
                > sophieonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=a\
                > > \
                > > > \
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > rticle&id=3651:dreizehnter-vortrag-dornach-17-september-1924&catid=244:g\
                > > \
                > > > \
                > > > > a-346-priesterkurse-v&Itemid=5> DREIZEHNTER VORTRAG, Dornach, 17.
                > > > > September 1924.
                > > > > The first text are bad in its construction and it could be by reason
                > > > of
                > > > > the referent and the physical state of Steiner.
                > > > >
                > > > > A version which is more consistent with the second part would be:
                > > > > Und vor allen Dingen leiden diejenigen Menschen, die echt beseelt
                > > > > sind,von solchen Personen Seelen, die eigentlich als
                > > > > Menschen-Heuschrecken durch die Welt gehen.
                > > > > The new translation:
                > > > > Above all, these men suffers who are animated with such souls who
                > > goes
                > > > > through the world as human locusts.
                > > > > Seen from an esoteric view, there is no reason that man should be in
                > > > > spiritual danger from these souls, in the same way that we are in no
                > > > > spiritual danger from other incarnated beings. And the rest of the
                > > > text
                > > > > are consistent with this view.
                > > > >
                > > > > Regards,
                > > > > Kim
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Frank Thomas Smith
                ... (snip) Hi Kim, As Ottmar warned, these lectures were not taken down verbatim by a stenographer, but have been cooked up from notes taken by people who were
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 31 8:31 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Frank and other German speaking,
                  > I had a discussion some time ago with a guy called Tom, who were a
                  > little proud of some writing he had made ten years ago, which I think
                  > builds on an error the referent made, not of something Steiner said, as
                  > the German text is not "velformed".

                  >
                  > This text is quite illogical, in the first part it says that normal
                  > people suffers by those unfortunate, and in the second part it says that
                  > it's vital for the unfortunates development that they are in contact
                  > with normal men and it's our responsibility to help them:
                  (snip)
                  Hi Kim,
                  As Ottmar warned, these lectures were not taken down verbatim by a stenographer, but have been cooked up from notes taken by people who were present. So who knows really. Nevertheless, assuming that the German is correct, then the English also is, and I see no contradiction. If a priest - and these lectures were for priests - is confronted by an I-less (not eyeless please) wannabe convert, that could be a problem, but he must bear in mind that he/she needs help and should not reject him. That *could* be the meaning.
                  Frank
                • Frank Thomas Smith
                  ... He didn t say dangerous - did he? Only that if it were revealed to the person (without an I), the result would be madness - for that person (I think).
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 31 8:38 AM
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                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Ottmar,
                    > So you mean that those unfortunate people who are at the state we were
                    > back in Lemuria, before we got our spirit, is a danger for man?
                    >
                    > When Steiner says it is necessary for us to help them, it is not
                    > understandable that he don't tell how to do that without taking
                    > precautions against the dangerous whatever.
                    >
                    > It's illogical, there is no reason a being between animal and man should
                    > be dangerous for man.

                    He didn't say "dangerous" - did he? Only that if it were revealed to the person (without an I), the result would be madness - for that person (I think).

                    Frank
                  • Frank Thomas Smith
                    ... Saying that they don t have an I may mean that it is not operative - for lack of a better word - in this incarnation; but nevertheless exists
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 31 8:49 AM
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                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Graae Munch" <kimgm@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Adrian,
                      >
                      > I have thought about that also, but I havent found a good answer yet. That
                      > they don't have a spirit, that they don't have an higher I may mean that
                      > they are not following the law of karma. They are working on the interface
                      > between the Astral body and the Ego, maybe on the Sentient Soul, Sentient
                      > body, but it's guesses.
                      >
                      > They don't have spirit, but they still are human-to-be, so they will be full
                      > humans at the next planet Jupiter. I don't think they would have been born
                      > on Earth if it wasn't for that population explosion, but I am not sure, as I
                      > don't know how much chance play in the development on this Earth.

                      ---------
                      Saying that they don't have an "I" may mean that it is not operative - for lack of a better word - in this incarnation; but nevertheless exists "elsewhere".
                      Frank
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