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Re: John Sherman and atma vichara

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  • Mike helsher
    I think it s normal in our time that people defend their time honored descriptions *about* what this or that is. Tarjei s report on the hole speaks clearly to
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 13 12:37 PM
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      I think it's normal in our time that people defend their time honored descriptions *about* what this or that is. Tarjei's report on the hole speaks clearly to that. The descriptions are helpful, for a time, but also a big distraction. I seem to remember something that RS wrote about the worst thing that could happen to religion, is the frozen intellectual understanding heaped upon it over the years (greatly paraphrased). John is probably wrong about a lot of stuff, which he freely admits, as was Ramana, as was Rudolf Steiner. When a person cloths their personal experience of spirit in words, and then someone else un-questioningly believes the words, I think that's just plain wrong...and in those un-questioned beliefs we have the cause of all human war, slaughter, stupidity and intelligent-ignorance.

      Best

      Mike

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "lightsearcher1" <lightsearcher1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thread sent me searching on "atma vichara." I found info on
      > this Eastern tradition a number of years ago and am grateful
      > to have come across it again.
      >
      > The following is located on a blog dedicated completely to
      > Sri Ramana (d. 1950) and atma vichara. It may not be a final
      > word - but might add context.
      >
      > - John Sherman is not correct when he says that `The actuality of the
      > vichara seeks nothing'...
      > - John Sherman objects that `the vichara seeks nothing', he is taking
      > the verb `seeks' too literally, and is failing to understand the intended
      > meaning that lies behind it in this context...
      > - John Sherman is also confused when he talks of `the appearance of
      > consciousness' or `the arising of consciousness'...
      > - When John Sherman talks about consciousness `appearing' or `arising',
      > he is clearly implying that consciousness is not the absolute reality, but
      > according to Sri Ramana consciousness is the absolute reality...
      > - he confuses the whole practice when he says, `Just look at you. Not your
      > true self, not beingness, not timelessness ...'. When we look at ourself —
      > that is, at our essential consciousness `I' — what we are really looking at
      > is not anything other than our true self, our timeless being (even though
      > our true self now appears to us to be this false thinking `I'). We cannot
      > look at ourself correctly without looking at our true self, `I am', because
      > our true self alone is that which now appears to be our false self....
      >
      > Shortlink: http://tinyurl.com/lv8w2k
      >
      > http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2009/04/atma-vichara-practice-of-looking-at-or.html
      >
      > Self-enquiry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry
      > Ramana Maharshi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi
      >
      > ::::
      >
      > -- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Gilberti" <b7gilberti@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thank you Mike. And I agree, Rudolph would love the vichara, no doubt
      > > about it. Did you tell the folks here about the new vichara group?
      > >
      > > Perhaps you did, but I'll tell them again.
      > >
      > > Our good buddy Mike Helsher has just created a new Yahoo Group called
      > > "Vichara_Conversation." I think it's a great idea. Here's the link:
      > >
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vichara_Conversation/
      > > <../../../../../Vichara_Conversation/>
      > >
      > > I love what Mike's written as the Group Description, which as you'll see
      > > reads as follows:
      > >
      > > Although this group is placed in the "spirituality" category here on
      > > Yahoo, it is in fact not intended to discuss spiritual understandings or
      > > practices.
      > >
      > > These topics are indeed welcome, and may come up from time to time; as
      > > will the thoughts, feelings, and experiences, both good and bad, of
      > > everyday human life.
      > >
      > > But the main focus here is on what doesn't come and go; what is always
      > > here, present in this moment, that never changes; Is neither harmed nor
      > > helped by all of whatever comes and goes in us; that which cannot be
      > > spoken about, and that is almost to simple to understand.
      > >
      > > We're talking about the ordinary, un-mitigated un-describable,
      > > un-clouded by spiritual or therapeutic understanding, experience of YOU!
      > > here, now, in this instant.
      > >
      > > If you're new all this, you're welcome to join as part of your
      > > exploration into what it's all about. We've put up some relevant Links
      > > and Files. A good one to start with, in my opinion, is the following,
      > > which provides free access to mp3 recordings of John's recent talks and
      > > discussions about the vichara:
      > >
      > > http://www.johnsherman.org/john_sherman_podcast/
      > >
      > > Anyway, do consider joining us. I can assure you, far from detracting
      > > from Anthroposophy, it can only enhance it, in an indirect way that does
      > > not involve any concepts or ideas. I can't explain that, but in time
      > > you'll find that to be the case.
      > >
      > > Much Love,
      > > Ben
      > >
      > > http://bengilberti.com <http://bengilberti.com/>
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher"
      > > <mhelsher@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Ben Gilberti
      > > b7gilberti@ wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > News from River Ganga
      > >
      > > > > Worldwide Online Meeting with John Sherman
      > > > > This Saturday, June 6 at 1 pm PDT (GMT -7)
      > > > >
      > > > Nice to hear your voice at the meeting today Ben...:) and thanx for
      > > posting it hear. I'm sure that there are some, especially on this heavy
      > > hitter list, that might not think John's simple message is worth much.
      > > Perhaps if they were incarcerated for 18 years they might think
      > > differently. Steiner mentioned frequently the need for personal
      > > discernment, and that we should not take anything he said as fact. For
      > > me, John's conversation about the Vichara, is directly related to Rudolf
      > > Steiner's ardent, turgid, intellectual discourse that points to an
      > > "exceptional state" that is beholden when we observe the nature of our
      > > own thinking. Which can be summed up as "in the beginning was the word."
      > > Of course these words are useful only as pointers, But "the word"? that
      > > can only be experienced...
      > > >
      > > > Best
      > > > Mike
      >
    • Kim Graae Munch
      As nobody is correct, it s a good idea to correlate the information from more than one source, and in this case Ramana and Rudolf Steiner share concept, but
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 13 1:38 PM
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        Message
        As nobody is correct, it's a good idea to correlate the information from more than one source, and in this case Ramana and Rudolf Steiner share concept, but that doesn't mean that you should discard what John promotes, but it should extend your understanding, there is no need to go into defense mode.
        Cheers,
        Kim
         
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike helsher
        Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:38 PM
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: John Sherman and atma vichara

        I think it's normal in our time that people defend their time honored descriptions *about* what this or that is. Tarjei's report on the hole speaks clearly to that. The descriptions are helpful, for a time, but also a big distraction. I seem to remember something that RS wrote about the worst thing that could happen to religion, is the frozen intellectual understanding heaped upon it over the years (greatly paraphrased) . John is probably wrong about a lot of stuff, which he freely admits, as was Ramana, as was Rudolf Steiner. When a person cloths their personal experience of spirit in words, and then someone else un-questioningly believes the words, I think that's just plain wrong...and in those un-questioned beliefs we have the cause of all human war, slaughter, stupidity and intelligent- ignorance.

        Best

        Mike

        --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "lightsearcher1" <lightsearcher1@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Thread sent me searching on "atma vichara." I found info on
        > this Eastern tradition a number of years ago and am grateful
        > to have come across it again.
        >
        > The following is located on a blog dedicated completely to
        > Sri Ramana (d. 1950) and atma vichara. It may not be a final
        > word - but might add context.
        >
        > - John Sherman is not correct when he says that `The actuality of the
        > vichara seeks nothing'...
        > - John Sherman objects that `the vichara seeks nothing', he is taking
        > the verb `seeks' too literally, and is failing to understand the intended
        > meaning that lies behind it in this context...
        > - John Sherman is also confused when he talks of `the appearance of
        > consciousness' or `the arising of consciousness' ...
        > - When John Sherman talks about consciousness `appearing' or `arising',
        > he is clearly implying that consciousness is not the absolute reality, but
        > according to Sri Ramana consciousness is the absolute reality...
        > - he confuses the whole practice when he says, `Just look at you. Not your
        > true self, not beingness, not timelessness ...'. When we look at ourself —
        > that is, at our essential consciousness `I' — what we are really looking at
        > is not anything other than our true self, our timeless being (even though
        > our true self now appears to us to be this false thinking `I'). We cannot
        > look at ourself correctly without looking at our true self, `I am', because
        > our true self alone is that which now appears to be our false self....
        >
        > Shortlink: http://tinyurl. com/lv8w2k
        >
        > http://happinessofb eing.blogspot. com/2009/ 04/atma-vichara- practice- of-looking- at-or.html
        >
        > Self-enquiry: http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Self-enquiry
        > Ramana Maharshi: http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Ramana_Maharshi
        >
        > ::::
        >
        > -- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "Ben Gilberti" <b7gilberti@ > wrote:
        > >
        > > Thank you Mike. And I agree, Rudolph would love the vichara, no doubt
        > > about it. Did you tell the folks here about the new vichara group?
        > >
        > > Perhaps you did, but I'll tell them again.
        > >
        > > Our good buddy Mike Helsher has just created a new Yahoo Group called
        > > "Vichara_Conversati on." I think it's a great idea. Here's the link:
        > >
        > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Vichara_ Conversation/
        > > <../../../.. /../Vichara_ Conversation/ >
        > >
        > > I love what Mike's written as the Group Description, which as you'll see
        > > reads as follows:
        > >
        > > Although this group is placed in the "spirituality" category here on
        > > Yahoo, it is in fact not intended to discuss spiritual understandings or
        > > practices.
        > >
        > > These topics are indeed welcome, and may come up from time to time; as
        > > will the thoughts, feelings, and experiences, both good and bad, of
        > > everyday human life.
        > >
        > > But the main focus here is on what doesn't come and go; what is always
        > > here, present in this moment, that never changes; Is neither harmed nor
        > > helped by all of whatever comes and goes in us; that which cannot be
        > > spoken about, and that is almost to simple to understand.
        > >
        > > We're talking about the ordinary, un-mitigated un-describable,
        > > un-clouded by spiritual or therapeutic understanding, experience of YOU!
        > > here, now, in this instant.
        > >
        > > If you're new all this, you're welcome to join as part of your
        > > exploration into what it's all about. We've put up some relevant Links
        > > and Files. A good one to start with, in my opinion, is the following,
        > > which provides free access to mp3 recordings of John's recent talks and
        > > discussions about the vichara:
        > >
        > > http://www.johnsher man.org/john_ sherman_podcast/
        > >
        > > Anyway, do consider joining us. I can assure you, far from detracting
        > > from Anthroposophy, it can only enhance it, in an indirect way that does
        > > not involve any concepts or ideas. I can't explain that, but in time
        > > you'll find that to be the case.
        > >
        > > Much Love,
        > > Ben
        > >
        > > http://bengilberti. com <http://bengilberti. com/>
        > >
        > > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike helsher"
        > > <mhelsher@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Gilberti
        > > b7gilberti@ wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > News from River Ganga
        > >
        > > > > Worldwide Online Meeting with John Sherman
        > > > > This Saturday, June 6 at 1 pm PDT (GMT -7)
        > > > >
        > > > Nice to hear your voice at the meeting today Ben...:) and thanx for
        > > posting it hear. I'm sure that there are some, especially on this heavy
        > > hitter list, that might not think John's simple message is worth much.
        > > Perhaps if they were incarcerated for 18 years they might think
        > > differently. Steiner mentioned frequently the need for personal
        > > discernment, and that we should not take anything he said as fact. For
        > > me, John's conversation about the Vichara, is directly related to Rudolf
        > > Steiner's ardent, turgid, intellectual discourse that points to an
        > > "exceptional state" that is beholden when we observe the nature of our
        > > own thinking. Which can be summed up as "in the beginning was the word."
        > > Of course these words are useful only as pointers, But "the word"? that
        > > can only be experienced. ..
        > > >
        > > > Best
        > > > Mike
        >

      • write3chairs
        ... It amuses me how people will launch into attack or defense mode over almost anything that is not a life and death matter. John Sherman is a good example. I
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 13 2:35 PM
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          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Graae Munch" wrote:

          > As nobody is correct, it's a good idea to correlate the
          > information from more than one source, and in this case
          > Ramana and Rudolf Steiner share concept, but that doesn't
          > mean that you should discard what John promotes, but it
          > should extend your understanding, there is no need to go
          > into defense mode.
          > Cheers,
          > Kim

          It amuses me how people will launch into attack or defense
          mode over almost anything that is not a life and death matter.
          John Sherman is a good example. I think Lightsearcher, who we
          haven't heard from in quite awhile (nice to see You again),
          was merely pointing to something, not a *final* word but words
          that "might add context," he said, and not endorsing it, per se.

          And I recently heard a person say that John gets on her nerves
          because ne never really *says* anything! I find this to be true
          about Eckhart Tolle. A friend sent me a link to one of his
          videos one time and I thought to finally take a look and see
          what this guy whose name I see around a lot has to say.
          I couldn't listen to him for more than just a few minutes
          without cringing. Which reminds me of something else, a blog
          entry I read by someone who finds the word "pumice" arousing.
          A few people complained, but I agree; it IS an arousing word.

          Cheers,
          Jenny

          On Behalf Of Mike helsher


          > I think it's normal in our time that people defend their time honored
          > descriptions *about* what this or that is. Tarjei's report on the hole
          > speaks clearly to that. The descriptions are helpful, for a time, but also a
          > big distraction. I seem to remember something that RS wrote about the worst
          > thing that could happen to religion, is the frozen intellectual
          > understanding heaped upon it over the years (greatly paraphrased). John is
          > probably wrong about a lot of stuff, which he freely admits, as was Ramana,
          > as was Rudolf Steiner. When a person cloths their personal experience of
          > spirit in words, and then someone else un-questioningly believes the words,
          > I think that's just plain wrong...and in those un-questioned beliefs we have
          > the cause of all human war, slaughter, stupidity and intelligent-ignorance.
          >
          > Best
          >
          > Mike
          >
          > "lightsearcher1" wrote:
          > >
          > > Thread sent me searching on "atma vichara." I found info on
          > > this Eastern tradition a number of years ago and am grateful
          > > to have come across it again.
          > >
          > > The following is located on a blog dedicated completely to
          > > Sri Ramana (d. 1950) and atma vichara. It may not be a final
          > > word - but might add context.
          > >
          > > - John Sherman is not correct when he says that `The actuality of the
          > > vichara seeks nothing'...
          > > - John Sherman objects that `the vichara seeks nothing', he is taking
          > > the verb `seeks' too literally, and is failing to understand the intended
          > > meaning that lies behind it in this context...
          > > - John Sherman is also confused when he talks of `the appearance of
          > > consciousness' or `the arising of consciousness'...
          > > - When John Sherman talks about consciousness `appearing' or `arising',
          > > he is clearly implying that consciousness is not the absolute reality, but
          >
          > > according to Sri Ramana consciousness is the absolute reality...
          > > - he confuses the whole practice when he says, `Just look at you. Not your
          >
          > > true self, not beingness, not timelessness ...'. When we look at ourself -
          >
          > > that is, at our essential consciousness `I' - what we are really looking
          > at
          > > is not anything other than our true self, our timeless being (even though
          > > our true self now appears to us to be this false thinking `I'). We cannot
          > > look at ourself correctly without looking at our true self, `I am',
          > because
          > > our true self alone is that which now appears to be our false self....
          > >
          > > Shortlink: http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/lv8w2k> com/lv8w2k
          > >
          > > http://happinessofb
          > <http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2009/04/atma-vichara-practice-of-looki
          > ng-at-or.html>
          > eing.blogspot.com/2009/04/atma-vichara-practice-of-looking-at-or.html
          > >
          > > Self-enquiry: http://en.wikipedia
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry> .org/wiki/Self-enquiry
          > > Ramana Maharshi: http://en.wikipedia
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi> .org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi
          > >
          > > ::::
          > >
          > > -- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
          > tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Gilberti" wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Thank you Mike. And I agree, Rudolph would love the vichara, no doubt
          > > > about it. Did you tell the folks here about the new vichara group?
          > > >
          > > > Perhaps you did, but I'll tell them again.
          > > >
          > > > Our good buddy Mike Helsher has just created a new Yahoo Group called
          > > > "Vichara_Conversation." I think it's a great idea. Here's the link:
          > > >
          > > > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vichara_Conversation/>
          > > >
          > > > I love what Mike's written as the Group Description, which as you'll see
          > > > reads as follows:
          > > >
          > > > Although this group is placed in the "spirituality" category here on
          > > > Yahoo, it is in fact not intended to discuss spiritual understandings or
          > > > practices.
          > > >
          > > > These topics are indeed welcome, and may come up from time to time; as
          > > > will the thoughts, feelings, and experiences, both good and bad, of
          > > > everyday human life.
          > > >
          > > > But the main focus here is on what doesn't come and go; what is always
          > > > here, present in this moment, that never changes; Is neither harmed nor
          > > > helped by all of whatever comes and goes in us; that which cannot be
          > > > spoken about, and that is almost to simple to understand.
          > > >
          > > > We're talking about the ordinary, un-mitigated un-describable,
          > > > un-clouded by spiritual or therapeutic understanding, experience of YOU!
          > > > here, now, in this instant.
          > > >
          > > > If you're new all this, you're welcome to join as part of your
          > > > exploration into what it's all about. We've put up some relevant Links
          > > > and Files. A good one to start with, in my opinion, is the following,
          > > > which provides free access to mp3 recordings of John's recent talks and
          > > > discussions about the vichara:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.johnsher <http://www.johnsherman.org/john_sherman_podcast/>
          > man.org/john_sherman_podcast/
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, do consider joining us. I can assure you, far from detracting
          > > > from Anthroposophy, it can only enhance it, in an indirect way that does
          > > > not involve any concepts or ideas. I can't explain that, but in time
          > > > you'll find that to be the case.
          > > >
          > > > Much Love,
          > > > Ben
          > > >
          > > > http://bengilberti. <http://bengilberti.com> com <http://bengilberti.
          > <http://bengilberti.com/> com/>
          > > >
          > > > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
          > tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher"
          > > > <mhelsher@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In anthroposophy_
          > <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
          > Ben Gilberti
          > > > b7gilberti@ wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > News from River Ganga
          > > >
          > > > > > Worldwide Online Meeting with John Sherman
          > > > > > This Saturday, June 6 at 1 pm PDT (GMT -7)
          > > > > >
          > > > > Nice to hear your voice at the meeting today Ben...:) and thanx for
          > > > posting it hear. I'm sure that there are some, especially on this heavy
          > > > hitter list, that might not think John's simple message is worth much.
          > > > Perhaps if they were incarcerated for 18 years they might think
          > > > differently. Steiner mentioned frequently the need for personal
          > > > discernment, and that we should not take anything he said as fact. For
          > > > me, John's conversation about the Vichara, is directly related to Rudolf
          > > > Steiner's ardent, turgid, intellectual discourse that points to an
          > > > "exceptional state" that is beholden when we observe the nature of our
          > > > own thinking. Which can be summed up as "in the beginning was the word."
          > > > Of course these words are useful only as pointers, But "the word"? that
          > > > can only be experienced...
          > > > >
          > > > > Best
          > > > > Mike
        • Mike helsher
          Well I do enjoy defending something that I feel and see truth in. That is how I got involved with this list a long time ago. Having an inkling or an intuition
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 13 3:00 PM
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            Well I do enjoy defending something that I feel and see truth in. That is how I got involved with this list a long time ago. Having an inkling or an intuition that the critics Of Steiner were a bunch of talking heads. Lost in the concepts. Then I saw that so called anthros get lost in the 320 volumes of written concepts that a truly great man left for us. The more insistent talking heads from both camps have gotten booted from this list over time.

            "there is such a great difference between the things to which we gradually learn to swear in the materialistic epoch, between the abstract thinking logic, which merely takes hold of the head, and the sense of reality, which is alone able at the present time to lead us to welfare and security." RS - "The remedy for our diseased civilization".

            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/RemCiv_index.html

            John speaks clearly and simply to me about the "sense of reality, which is alone able at the present time to lead us to welfare and security" without all the baggage of inflamed abstract logical spiritual understanding, which was at best, for me, helpful sometimes, mostly as a distraction.

            But there certainly might be "a wrench for every nut in this world"...

            Best

            Mike


            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Graae Munch" <kimgm@...> wrote:
            >
            > As nobody is correct, it's a good idea to correlate the information from
            > more than one source, and in this case Ramana and Rudolf Steiner share
            > concept, but that doesn't mean that you should discard what John promotes,
            > but it should extend your understanding, there is no need to go into defense
            > mode.
            > Cheers,
            > Kim
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike helsher
            > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:38 PM
            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: John Sherman and atma vichara
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I think it's normal in our time that people defend their time honored
            > descriptions *about* what this or that is. Tarjei's report on the hole
            > speaks clearly to that. The descriptions are helpful, for a time, but also a
            > big distraction. I seem to remember something that RS wrote about the worst
            > thing that could happen to religion, is the frozen intellectual
            > understanding heaped upon it over the years (greatly paraphrased). John is
            > probably wrong about a lot of stuff, which he freely admits, as was Ramana,
            > as was Rudolf Steiner. When a person cloths their personal experience of
            > spirit in words, and then someone else un-questioningly believes the words,
            > I think that's just plain wrong...and in those un-questioned beliefs we have
            > the cause of all human war, slaughter, stupidity and intelligent-ignorance.
            >
            > Best
            >
            > Mike
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
            > tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "lightsearcher1" <lightsearcher1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thread sent me searching on "atma vichara." I found info on
            > > this Eastern tradition a number of years ago and am grateful
            > > to have come across it again.
            > >
            > > The following is located on a blog dedicated completely to
            > > Sri Ramana (d. 1950) and atma vichara. It may not be a final
            > > word - but might add context.
            > >
            > > - John Sherman is not correct when he says that `The actuality of the
            > > vichara seeks nothing'...
            > > - John Sherman objects that `the vichara seeks nothing', he is taking
            > > the verb `seeks' too literally, and is failing to understand the intended
            > > meaning that lies behind it in this context...
            > > - John Sherman is also confused when he talks of `the appearance of
            > > consciousness' or `the arising of consciousness'...
            > > - When John Sherman talks about consciousness `appearing' or `arising',
            > > he is clearly implying that consciousness is not the absolute reality, but
            >
            > > according to Sri Ramana consciousness is the absolute reality...
            > > - he confuses the whole practice when he says, `Just look at you. Not your
            >
            > > true self, not beingness, not timelessness ...'. When we look at ourself -
            >
            > > that is, at our essential consciousness `I' - what we are really looking
            > at
            > > is not anything other than our true self, our timeless being (even though
            > > our true self now appears to us to be this false thinking `I'). We cannot
            > > look at ourself correctly without looking at our true self, `I am',
            > because
            > > our true self alone is that which now appears to be our false self....
            > >
            > > Shortlink: http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/lv8w2k> com/lv8w2k
            > >
            > > http://happinessofb
            > <http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2009/04/atma-vichara-practice-of-looki
            > ng-at-or.html>
            > eing.blogspot.com/2009/04/atma-vichara-practice-of-looking-at-or.html
            > >
            > > Self-enquiry: http://en.wikipedia
            > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry> .org/wiki/Self-enquiry
            > > Ramana Maharshi: http://en.wikipedia
            > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi> .org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi
            > >
            > > ::::
            > >
            > > -- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
            > tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Gilberti" <b7gilberti@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Thank you Mike. And I agree, Rudolph would love the vichara, no doubt
            > > > about it. Did you tell the folks here about the new vichara group?
            > > >
            > > > Perhaps you did, but I'll tell them again.
            > > >
            > > > Our good buddy Mike Helsher has just created a new Yahoo Group called
            > > > "Vichara_Conversation." I think it's a great idea. Here's the link:
            > > >
            > > > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vichara_Conversation/>
            > yahoo.com/group/Vichara_Conversation/
            > > > <../../../../../Vichara_Conversation/>
            > > >
            > > > I love what Mike's written as the Group Description, which as you'll see
            > > > reads as follows:
            > > >
            > > > Although this group is placed in the "spirituality" category here on
            > > > Yahoo, it is in fact not intended to discuss spiritual understandings or
            > > > practices.
            > > >
            > > > These topics are indeed welcome, and may come up from time to time; as
            > > > will the thoughts, feelings, and experiences, both good and bad, of
            > > > everyday human life.
            > > >
            > > > But the main focus here is on what doesn't come and go; what is always
            > > > here, present in this moment, that never changes; Is neither harmed nor
            > > > helped by all of whatever comes and goes in us; that which cannot be
            > > > spoken about, and that is almost to simple to understand.
            > > >
            > > > We're talking about the ordinary, un-mitigated un-describable,
            > > > un-clouded by spiritual or therapeutic understanding, experience of YOU!
            > > > here, now, in this instant.
            > > >
            > > > If you're new all this, you're welcome to join as part of your
            > > > exploration into what it's all about. We've put up some relevant Links
            > > > and Files. A good one to start with, in my opinion, is the following,
            > > > which provides free access to mp3 recordings of John's recent talks and
            > > > discussions about the vichara:
            > > >
            > > > http://www.johnsher <http://www.johnsherman.org/john_sherman_podcast/>
            > man.org/john_sherman_podcast/
            > > >
            > > > Anyway, do consider joining us. I can assure you, far from detracting
            > > > from Anthroposophy, it can only enhance it, in an indirect way that does
            > > > not involve any concepts or ideas. I can't explain that, but in time
            > > > you'll find that to be the case.
            > > >
            > > > Much Love,
            > > > Ben
            > > >
            > > > http://bengilberti. <http://bengilberti.com> com <http://bengilberti.
            > <http://bengilberti.com/> com/>
            > > >
            > > > --- In anthroposophy_ <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
            > tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher"
            > > > <mhelsher@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In anthroposophy_
            > <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
            > Ben Gilberti
            > > > b7gilberti@ wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > News from River Ganga
            > > >
            > > > > > Worldwide Online Meeting with John Sherman
            > > > > > This Saturday, June 6 at 1 pm PDT (GMT -7)
            > > > > >
            > > > > Nice to hear your voice at the meeting today Ben...:) and thanx for
            > > > posting it hear. I'm sure that there are some, especially on this heavy
            > > > hitter list, that might not think John's simple message is worth much.
            > > > Perhaps if they were incarcerated for 18 years they might think
            > > > differently. Steiner mentioned frequently the need for personal
            > > > discernment, and that we should not take anything he said as fact. For
            > > > me, John's conversation about the Vichara, is directly related to Rudolf
            > > > Steiner's ardent, turgid, intellectual discourse that points to an
            > > > "exceptional state" that is beholden when we observe the nature of our
            > > > own thinking. Which can be summed up as "in the beginning was the word."
            > > > Of course these words are useful only as pointers, But "the word"? that
            > > > can only be experienced...
            > > > >
            > > > > Best
            > > > > Mike
            > >
            >
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