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Re: evolution of consciousness language and the Whitsuntide Mysteries

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  • Frank Thomas Smith
    ... Good grief, another Bradford clone. They re sprouting like poisonous mushrooms around here. But not to fear, with the coming of the Super Brain we won t
    Message 1 of 19 , May 24 7:51 AM
      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "jeff.baggaley" <jeff.baggaley@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Dear Bradford,
      >
      > Rare indeed is the voice today, as yours, who speaks truth out of the integrity of his Heart, with precision and clarity, and I thank you deeply for it.

      Good grief, another Bradford clone. They're sprouting like poisonous mushrooms around here. But not to fear, with the coming of the Super Brain we won't even need Bradford anymore:
      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html?ref=weekinreview

      Frank
    • elfuncle
      ... mushrooms around here. But not to fear, with the coming of the Super ... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html?ref=weekin review
      Message 2 of 19 , May 24 6:57 PM
        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@...> wrote:

        > Good grief, another Bradford clone. They're sprouting like poisonous mushrooms around here. But not to fear, with the coming of the Super Brain we won't even need Bradford anymore:
        > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html?ref=weekinreview 


        In the eighties they used to say, "Let Reagan be Reagan." So by the same token, why not let Bradford be Bradford, or if he prefers, let Hölderlin be Hölderlin? This German poet wrote hard-hitting esoterica -- "The Fire of the Gods Drives Us to Set Forth by Day and by Night."

        And like Hölderlin, Bradford is obviously also on fire, and he seems to have his fans -- or "clones" if you prefer, Frank -- some of whom are, alas, more or less wackos. And it's a strange situation for wackos to dance the choreography of a pied piper who calls himself Hölderlin, because for all his obvious talent, this man spent most of his life tormented by mental illness and suffered great loneliness. And the topic you are bringing up here with that New York Times article not only brings us back to something we have discussed here before, but in the context at hand it is a reminder of something else that I don't think we've discussed: Namely the relationship between technology and human loneliness.

        The article you mention is entitled "The Coming Superbrain," with the "Terminator" nightmare as its point of departure:

        "It's summertime and the Terminator is back. A sci-fi movie thrill ride, "Terminator Salvation" comes complete with a malevolent artificial intelligence dubbed Skynet, a military R.&D. project that gained self-awareness and concluded that humans were an irritant — perhaps a bit like athlete's foot — to be dispatched forthwith.

        "The notion that a self-aware computing system would emerge spontaneously from the interconnections of billions of computers and computer networks goes back in science fiction at least as far as Arthur C. Clarke's "Dial F for Frankenstein." A prescient short story that appeared in 1961, it foretold an ever-more-interconnected telephone network that spontaneously acts like a newborn baby and leads to global chaos as it takes over financial, transportation and military systems.

        "Today, artificial intelligence, once the preserve of science fiction writers and eccentric computer prodigies, is back in fashion and getting serious attention from NASA and from Silicon Valley companies like Google as well as a new round of start-ups that are designing everything from next-generation search engines to machines that listen or that are capable of walking around in the world. A.I.'s new respectability is turning the spotlight back on the question of where the technology might be heading and, more ominously, perhaps, whether computer intelligence will surpass our own, and how quickly."

        We discussed this issue in late November, in a thread with the title "Goethanism vs Technological Singularity":

         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/38707 

        The central idea is that artificial intelligence, which is imbedded in our computer software, calculators etc. and in many ways exceeds human intelligence (especially technical memory, chess, etc,) will make an evolutionary leap and become self-aware artificial consciousness. While the Terminator variety is a malevolent and nightmarish one, seeking to rid the world of biological units like humans (and one would assume all animal and plant life too, because machines only need the mineral kingdom plus energy sources like electricity), Isaac Asimov had a much more romantic vision of robotics when he wrote the story that became "Bicentennial Man" (1999) brilliantly played by Robin Williams. Asimov was, after all, a robot romanticist. This was also discussed in the November thread.

        Those who are spiritually inclined in a more or less esoteric kind of way, usually don't share these romantic and idealistic feelings about technology and robotics. This doesn't make them, ipso facto, "anti-tech" in any way, although some of them are very tech-critical and with good reason. We surround ourselves with all kinds of radiation from dusk to dawn, electrical gadgets, electronics, we even carry them in our bags and pockets when heading for the wilderness. We're married to tech from cradle to grave. And the very nature of technology is such that it produces a sense of individual isolation, a loneliness, for the most part subconsciously, because the tech inserts itself between ourselves and other beings, adding to the separation experienced through being encased in separate physical bodies -- or biological units if you prefer.

        We're not talking about destructive technology at this point, such as Pentagon weaponry speculating in more clever and efficient ways to slaughter people, altough very much of our technology, including computers and the internet, weather satellites, Google Earth, has its genesis in military research and intelligence. But we're talking about benign technology, and we're all caught up in it. Personally, I'm one of the many distributors of Iris 3000 , which is loudly applauded and endorsed by Donald Trump and is scheduled to be the main theme in a soon-to-come episode of "The Celebrity Apprentice " on NBC.

        The point is, we all have to eat and you can't sell spiritual ideas and values for money. And for some reason, I don't like those who do. The apostle Paul, for instance, worked for his sustenance, physical labor. It needs to be recognized that Ahriman, not Christ, rules the economy, which is why Christ could not altogether refute him when he suggested that he should turn stones into bread (= go buy some food). He said man does not live by bread alone, but also by every word from God. So he acknowledged that he had to turn stones into bread, like Ahriman suggested, thus acknowledging Ahriman's position with regard to economic matters.

        But let's get back to the loneliness, fear and loathing in relation to technology. A typical wacky conspiracy buff is prone to get paranoid by being surrounded by technological gadgets and motors and engines and communication devices and mocrophones and cameras and electro-radiation from dusk to dawn, highlighted, of course, by movies like "Enemy of the State" (1998) with Will Smith. At the same time, the deep sense of loneliness, which is not properly acknowledged on the conscious level, not even by many "spiritual" people, may give birth to the desire to communicate with artificial gadgets like living beings, even if those beings should be thoroughy evil and murderous. This is what rudolf Steiner referred to as "the positive longing for the Devil." This longing is indeed positive, because the isolated and lonely individual is finally cying out for the Spirit, even though this first encounter with the Spirit will be the world of demons. This was also the case with Christ according to the Mark Gospel account.

        But there is another interesting aspect involved here: This positive longing for the Devil sometimes translates into a rather pathological, and therefore negative, longing for political totalitarianism. This is very interesting, because a totalitarian Big Brother offers to take away your responsibility for your own life and your own actions, even your own thinking through the Orwellian thought police. And this is why political conspiracies are the wet dreams of wackos.

        Tarjei
      • elfuncle
        ... http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html Christ must not be sought as the various
        Message 3 of 19 , May 25 5:33 AM
          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <coolvibes@...> wrote:

          > We're not talking about destructive technology at this point, such as
          > Pentagon weaponry speculating in more clever and efficient ways to
          > slaughter people, altough very much of our technology, including
          > computers and the internet, weather satellites, Google Earth, has its
          > genesis in military research and intelligence.


           http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html

          "Christ must not be sought as the various faiths seek Him today, faiths that in a remarkable way have already acceded to every possible compromise in interpreting Christ — here and there they have even agreed on how to celebrate the Christ as a god of slaughter."


          ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Reappearance of Christ in the Etheric," XIII, "The Three Realms of the Dead: Life Between Death and a New Birth," Bern, 29th November, 1917, GA 182)
          Tarjei
        • elfuncle
          Pure gold: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/BuildStones/19170501p01.html Christianity as a
          Message 4 of 19 , May 25 7:31 AM
            Pure gold:

             http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/BuildStones/19170501p01.html 

            "Christianity as a historical reality must not be confused with that one root which its name recalls: the other roots from which it has sprung are by far the more important. It is an unprecedented abuse of language to associate such manifestations of decay and such monstrosities as the `Christian Church', `Christian belief' and `Christian life' with that Holy Name. What did Christ deny? — Everything which today is called Christian!"

            ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "Building Stones for an Understanding of the Mystery of Golgotha," Lecture 9, Berlin, 1st May, 1917, GA 175)
            Tarjei

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <coolvibes@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
            > coolvibes@ wrote:
            >
            > > We're not talking about destructive technology at this point, such as
            > > Pentagon weaponry speculating in more clever and efficient ways to
            > > slaughter people, altough very much of our technology, including
            > > computers and the internet, weather satellites, Google Earth, has its
            > > genesis in military research and intelligence.
            >
            > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html
            > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html>
            >
            > "Christ must not be sought as the various faiths seek Him today, faiths
            > that in a remarkable way have already acceded to every possible
            > compromise in interpreting Christ — here and there they have even
            > agreed on how to celebrate the Christ as a god of slaughter."
            >
            > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Reappearance of Christ in the Etheric," XIII,
            > "The Three Realms of the Dead: Life Between Death and a New Birth,"
            > Bern, 29th November, 1917, GA 182)
            > Tarjei
            >

          • elfuncle
            Fantastic!! http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/1161/jesus.htm Jesus Kills! ARKANSAS CITY (EAP) -- A
            Message 5 of 19 , May 25 8:44 AM
              Fantastic!!

               http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/1161/jesus.htm 

              Jesus Kills!

              ARKANSAS CITY (EAP) -- A Little Rock woman was killed yesterday after
              leaping through her moving car's sun roof during an incident best
              described as "a mistaken rapture" by dozens of eye witnesses. Thirteen
              other people were injured after a twenty-car pile up resulted from
              people trying to avoid hitting the woman who was apparently convinced
              that the rapture was occurring when she saw twelve people floating up
              into the air, and then passed a man on the side of the road who she
              claimed was Jesus.

              "She started screaming "He's back, He's back" and climbed right out of
              the sunroof and jumped off the roof of the car," said Everett
              Williams, husband of 28-year-old Georgann Williams who was pronounced
              dead at the scene. "I was slowing down but she wouldn't wait till I
              stopped," Williams said. She thought the rapture was happening and was
              convinced that Jesus was gonna lift her up into the sky," he went on
              to say.

              "This is the strangest thing I've seen since I've been on the
              force," said Paul Madison, first officer on the scene. Madison
              questioned the man who looked like Jesus and discovered that he was
              dressed up as Jesus and was on his way to a toga costume party when
              the tarp covering the bed of his pickup truck came loose and released
              twelve blow up sex dolls filled with helium which floated up into the
              air.

              Ernie Jenkins, 32, of Fort Smith, who's been told by several of his
              friends that he looks like Jesus, pulled over and lifted his arms into
              the air in frustration, and said, "Come back here," just as the
              Williams' car passed him, and Mrs. Williams was sure that it was Jesus
              lifting people up into the sky as they passed by him, according to her
              husband, who says his wife loved Jesus more than anything else. When
              asked for comments about the twelve sex dolls, Jenkins replied, "This
              is all just too weird for me. I never expected anything like this to
              happen."



              Tarjei

              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <coolvibes@...> wrote:
              >
              > Pure gold:
              >
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/BuildStones/19170501p01.html
              > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/BuildStones/19170501p01.html>
              >
              > "Christianity as a historical reality must not be confused with
              > that one root which its name recalls: the other roots from which it
              > has sprung are by far the more important. It is an unprecedented
              > abuse of language to associate such manifestations of decay and such
              > monstrosities as the `Christian Church', `Christian
              > belief' and `Christian life' with that Holy Name. What
              > did Christ deny? — Everything which today is called
              > Christian!"
              >
              > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "Building Stones for an Understanding of the
              > Mystery of Golgotha," Lecture 9, Berlin, 1st May, 1917, GA 175)
              > Tarjei
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
              > coolvibes@ wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
              > > coolvibes@ wrote:
              > >
              > > > We're not talking about destructive technology at this point, such
              > as
              > > > Pentagon weaponry speculating in more clever and efficient ways to
              > > > slaughter people, altough very much of our technology, including
              > > > computers and the internet, weather satellites, Google Earth, has
              > its
              > > > genesis in military research and intelligence.
              > >
              > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html
              > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html>
              > >
              > > "Christ must not be sought as the various faiths seek Him today,
              > faiths
              > > that in a remarkable way have already acceded to every possible
              > > compromise in interpreting Christ — here and there they have even
              > > agreed on how to celebrate the Christ as a god of slaughter."
              > >
              > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Reappearance of Christ in the Etheric,"
              > XIII,
              > > "The Three Realms of the Dead: Life Between Death and a New Birth,"
              > > Bern, 29th November, 1917, GA 182)
              > > Tarjei
              > >
              >

            • Mike helsher
              My God, that story would definitely qualify for the Darwin awards. This is a bit outdated but fits I think:
              Message 6 of 19 , May 25 10:35 AM
                My God, that story would definitely qualify for the Darwin awards.

                This is a bit outdated but fits I think:

                http://www.freewebs.com/thefishercat/jesuslikesguns.htm

                Best

                Mike

                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <coolvibes@...> wrote:
                >
                > Fantastic!!
                >
                > http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/1161/jesus.htm
                > <http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/1161/jesus.htm>
                >
                > Jesus Kills!
                >
                > ARKANSAS CITY (EAP) -- A Little Rock woman was killed yesterday after
                > leaping through her moving car's sun roof during an incident best
                > described as "a mistaken rapture" by dozens of eye witnesses. Thirteen
                > other people were injured after a twenty-car pile up resulted from
                > people trying to avoid hitting the woman who was apparently convinced
                > that the rapture was occurring when she saw twelve people floating up
                > into the air, and then passed a man on the side of the road who she
                > claimed was Jesus.
                >
                > "She started screaming "He's back, He's back" and climbed right out of
                > the sunroof and jumped off the roof of the car," said Everett
                > Williams, husband of 28-year-old Georgann Williams who was pronounced
                > dead at the scene. "I was slowing down but she wouldn't wait till I
                > stopped," Williams said. She thought the rapture was happening and was
                > convinced that Jesus was gonna lift her up into the sky," he went on
                > to say.
                >
                > "This is the strangest thing I've seen since I've been on the
                > force," said Paul Madison, first officer on the scene. Madison
                > questioned the man who looked like Jesus and discovered that he was
                > dressed up as Jesus and was on his way to a toga costume party when
                > the tarp covering the bed of his pickup truck came loose and released
                > twelve blow up sex dolls filled with helium which floated up into the
                > air.
                >
                > Ernie Jenkins, 32, of Fort Smith, who's been told by several of his
                > friends that he looks like Jesus, pulled over and lifted his arms into
                > the air in frustration, and said, "Come back here," just as the
                > Williams' car passed him, and Mrs. Williams was sure that it was Jesus
                > lifting people up into the sky as they passed by him, according to her
                > husband, who says his wife loved Jesus more than anything else. When
                > asked for comments about the twelve sex dolls, Jenkins replied, "This
                > is all just too weird for me. I never expected anything like this to
                > happen."
                >
                >
                >
                > Tarjei
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                > <coolvibes@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Pure gold:
                > >
                > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/BuildStones/19170501p01.html
                > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/BuildStones/19170501p01.html>
                > >
                > > "Christianity as a historical reality must not be confused with
                > > that one root which its name recalls: the other roots from which it
                > > has sprung are by far the more important. It is an unprecedented
                > > abuse of language to associate such manifestations of decay and such
                > > monstrosities as the `Christian Church', `Christian
                > > belief' and `Christian life' with that Holy Name. What
                > > did Christ deny? — Everything which today is called
                > > Christian!"
                > >
                > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "Building Stones for an Understanding of the
                > > Mystery of Golgotha," Lecture 9, Berlin, 1st May, 1917, GA 175)
                > > Tarjei
                > >
                > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                > > coolvibes@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                > > > coolvibes@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > We're not talking about destructive technology at this point, such
                > > as
                > > > > Pentagon weaponry speculating in more clever and efficient ways to
                > > > > slaughter people, altough very much of our technology, including
                > > > > computers and the internet, weather satellites, Google Earth, has
                > > its
                > > > > genesis in military research and intelligence.
                > > >
                > > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html
                > > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html>
                > > >
                > > > "Christ must not be sought as the various faiths seek Him today,
                > > faiths
                > > > that in a remarkable way have already acceded to every possible
                > > > compromise in interpreting Christ — here and there they have
                > even
                > > > agreed on how to celebrate the Christ as a god of slaughter."
                > > >
                > > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Reappearance of Christ in the Etheric,"
                > > XIII,
                > > > "The Three Realms of the Dead: Life Between Death and a New Birth,"
                > > > Bern, 29th November, 1917, GA 182)
                > > > Tarjei
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Kim
                This Superbrain religion, is part of the Ahrimanian Deception, if you can make a Superbrain, then man is only an animal, not even better than an physical
                Message 7 of 19 , May 25 12:31 PM
                  This "Superbrain" religion, is part of the Ahrimanian Deception, if you can make a Superbrain, then man is only an animal, not even better than an physical construct.

                  Seen from a spiritual viewpoint we know that we are a being consisting of many layers or bodies outside the physical space, to be what we are so it is a reasonable conjecture that it is not possible to make a Superbrain build by physical means alone.

                  It can be proved mathematically that it's impossible to make a sentient computer, and through understanding of what it means to be conscious, to think, to relate to the world, together with the knowledge of what a computer can, it can be understood mentally that a Supercomputer is impossible.

                  But you don't need a Superbrain, big primitive computers can control your life as well, and they would be a lot worse than a Superbrain, as they are impossible to communicate intelligently with, they can't handle exceptional situations.

                  In "Is it possible to make intelligent machines " i have made a rework of an earlier post:

                  Intelligent Machines

                  I have had some discussions with engineers who had Intelligent Machines as their religion, and the most interesting part was that it was the Atheists who dreamed of the thinking machine.

                  I will analyze the feasibility of intelligent machines, with the computers we have now, from three different scientific approaches: The Mathematical, the Physical, and the Biological.

                  It is interesting that the believers in Intelligent Machines ignores the evidence, especially the Mathematical evidence which is the most definitive and stringent, this is also the reason I call them believers as they ignore facts, dreaming of a future with machines a lot wiser and knowledgeable than man, replacing God.

                  Mathematical Evidence

                  Kurt Gödel made the Incompleteness Theorems:

                  It is possible to have a complete and consistent list of axioms that cannot be produced by a computer program (that is, the list is not Computably Enumerable).

                  And

                  The incompleteness theorems also implies that not all mathematical questions are computable.

                  It states simply that there are problems which man can solve and machines can't.

                  The BBC program `Dangerous Knowledge (part 9/9)' looks at this Mathematical Prof.

                  Other documentation

                  Roger Penrose shows with examples why they cant think in: "The Large, the Small and the Human Mind".

                  In this Hard Talk interview about the recurring big bang Roger Penrose touches the problem.

                  Physical Limitations

                  When you look out into the room, you are sitting in, you have a picture or really a video of everything at once and constantly. It means that this view of your surroundings, and your thoughts about it, are in your Consciousness. Seen from a computational view it is really fantastic, and Computer Science today can only dream of something that seems to be Conscious! Even with future technologies as Quantum Computing is it a question if we can make Conscious Computers at all.

                  Technically Computers are something called Von Neumann Machines, which again is defined through the theoretical Turing Machine, and Turing Machines can only work on one bit at a time, which is only a small part of the information necessary to make a single point on a computer or television screen.

                  The consequence is that Computers can only have a part of a point of a picture in what we can call their `Consciousness' at a time, and that is not enough to even contain the color information of a point. What they have calculated in one instance is forgotten in the next. It's only when we see the result on the screen or on paper that it becomes Conscious through our consciousness, that is, we see the  screen as a whole, extracts the relevant information in all its complexity, and understands it's implications.

                  A computer cannot be Intelligent however big and speedy it is.

                  Brain Science

                  Erich Harth in 'Windows on the Mind',  1982:

                  The brain presents two seemingly irreconcilable aspects: It is a material body, exhibiting all the physical properties of matter, and it possesses a set of faculties and attributes, collectively called mind, that are not found in any other physical system.

                  In his book "The Creative Loop,.." he elaborates further on how the physical mind functions, and why it's superior to any known devices.

                  Literature

                  The book by Erich Harth's "The Creative Loop, How the Brain Makes a Mind" gives an intelligent description of the physical working of our brain.

                  The book Stairways to the Mind by Alwyn Scott gives a broader view of the area.

                  No Theory of a Conscious Machine yet

                  There have been talked about thinking machines for forty years, but there have not been a single theory for building one yet. There have been made a lot of programs running on super computers which can simulate some aspects of the mind, but the programs have nothing to do with real intelligence.

                  Computers are good at those things where we are bad, that is remembering and calculations, but they can't think.

                  With the knowledge we have to day, if it had been possible to program consciousness into our current computers, we would have done it by now.

                  Future possibilities

                  It may be possible to make thinking computers if its build on Quantum Computing, as the numbers of entangled bits in the computers processing unit can be increased considerable above the one bit we have today, but I am not sure that it is enough to create consciousness and there is still Gödels Theorem.

                  /Kim

                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <coolvibes@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                  > eltrigal78@ wrote:
                  >
                  > > Good grief, another Bradford clone. They're sprouting like poisonous
                  > mushrooms around here. But not to fear, with the coming of the Super
                  > Brain we won't even need Bradford anymore:
                  > >
                  > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html?ref=weekin\
                  > review
                  > <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html?ref=weeki\
                  > nreview>
                  >
                  >
                  > In the eighties they used to say, "Let Reagan be Reagan." So by the same
                  > token, why not let Bradford be Bradford, or if he prefers, let
                  > Hölderlin be Hölderlin? This German poet wrote hard-hitting
                  > esoterica -- "The Fire of the Gods Drives Us to Set Forth by Day and by
                  > Night."
                  >
                  > And like Hölderlin, Bradford is obviously also on fire, and he seems
                  > to have his fans -- or "clones" if you prefer, Frank -- some of whom
                  > are, alas, more or less wackos. And it's a strange situation for wackos
                  > to dance the choreography of a pied piper who calls himself
                  > Hölderlin, because for all his obvious talent, this man spent most of
                  > his life tormented by mental illness and suffered great loneliness. And
                  > the topic you are bringing up here with that New York Times article not
                  > only brings us back to something we have discussed here before, but in
                  > the context at hand it is a reminder of something else that I don't
                  > think we've discussed: Namely the relationship between technology and
                  > human loneliness.
                  >
                  > The article you mention is entitled "The Coming Superbrain," with the
                  > "Terminator" nightmare as its point of departure:
                  >
                  > "It's summertime and the Terminator is back. A sci-fi movie thrill
                  > ride, "Terminator Salvation" comes complete with a malevolent
                  > artificial intelligence dubbed Skynet, a military R.&D. project that
                  > gained self-awareness and concluded that humans were an irritant —
                  > perhaps a bit like athlete's foot — to be dispatched forthwith.
                  >
                  > "The notion that a self-aware computing system would emerge
                  > spontaneously from the interconnections of billions of computers and
                  > computer networks goes back in science fiction at least as far as Arthur
                  > C. Clarke's "Dial F for Frankenstein." A prescient short
                  > story that appeared in 1961, it foretold an ever-more-interconnected
                  > telephone network that spontaneously acts like a newborn baby and leads
                  > to global chaos as it takes over financial, transportation and military
                  > systems.
                  >
                  > "Today, artificial intelligence, once the preserve of science fiction
                  > writers and eccentric computer prodigies, is back in fashion and getting
                  > serious attention from NASA and from Silicon Valley companies like
                  > Google as well as a new round of start-ups that are designing everything
                  > from next-generation search engines to machines that listen or that are
                  > capable of walking around in the world. A.I.'s new respectability is
                  > turning the spotlight back on the question of where the technology might
                  > be heading and, more ominously, perhaps, whether computer intelligence
                  > will surpass our own, and how quickly."
                  >
                  > We discussed this issue in late November, in a thread with the title
                  > "Goethanism vs Technological Singularity":
                  >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/38707
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/38707>
                  >
                  > The central idea is that artificial intelligence, which is imbedded in
                  > our computer software, calculators etc. and in many ways exceeds human
                  > intelligence (especially technical memory, chess, etc,) will make an
                  > evolutionary leap and become self-aware artificial consciousness. While
                  > the Terminator variety is a malevolent and nightmarish one, seeking to
                  > rid the world of biological units like humans (and one would assume all
                  > animal and plant life too, because machines only need the mineral
                  > kingdom plus energy sources like electricity), Isaac Asimov had a much
                  > more romantic vision of robotics when he wrote the story that became
                  > "Bicentennial Man" (1999) brilliantly played by Robin Williams. Asimov
                  > was, after all, a robot romanticist. This was also discussed in the
                  > November thread.
                  >
                  > Those who are spiritually inclined in a more or less esoteric kind of
                  > way, usually don't share these romantic and idealistic feelings about
                  > technology and robotics. This doesn't make them, ipso facto, "anti-tech"
                  > in any way, although some of them are very tech-critical and with good
                  > reason. We surround ourselves with all kinds of radiation from dusk to
                  > dawn, electrical gadgets, electronics, we even carry them in our bags
                  > and pockets when heading for the wilderness. We're married to tech from
                  > cradle to grave. And the very nature of technology is such that it
                  > produces a sense of individual isolation, a loneliness, for the most
                  > part subconsciously, because the tech inserts itself between ourselves
                  > and other beings, adding to the separation experienced through being
                  > encased in separate physical bodies -- or biological units if you
                  > prefer.
                  >
                  > We're not talking about destructive technology at this point, such as
                  > Pentagon weaponry speculating in more clever and efficient ways to
                  > slaughter people, altough very much of our technology, including
                  > computers and the internet, weather satellites, Google Earth, has its
                  > genesis in military research and intelligence. But we're talking about
                  > benign technology, and we're all caught up in it. Personally, I'm one of
                  > the many distributors of Iris 3000
                  > <http://video.acninc.com/EU/CustomerVideoTraining_VideoPhone/full_train_\
                  > EN.html> , which is loudly applauded and endorsed by Donald Trump and
                  > is scheduled to be the main theme in a soon-to-come episode of "The
                  > Celebrity Apprentice <http://www.nbc.com/the-celebrity-apprentice/> "
                  > on NBC.
                  >
                  > The point is, we all have to eat and you can't sell spiritual ideas and
                  > values for money. And for some reason, I don't like those who do. The
                  > apostle Paul, for instance, worked for his sustenance, physical labor.
                  > It needs to be recognized that Ahriman, not Christ, rules the economy,
                  > which is why Christ could not altogether refute him when he suggested
                  > that he should turn stones into bread (= go buy some food). He said man
                  > does not live by bread alone, but also by every word from God. So he
                  > acknowledged that he had to turn stones into bread, like Ahriman
                  > suggested, thus acknowledging Ahriman's position with regard to economic
                  > matters.
                  >
                  > But let's get back to the loneliness, fear and loathing in relation to
                  > technology. A typical wacky conspiracy buff is prone to get paranoid by
                  > being surrounded by technological gadgets and motors and engines and
                  > communication devices and mocrophones and cameras and electro-radiation
                  > from dusk to dawn, highlighted, of course, by movies like "Enemy of the
                  > State" (1998) with Will Smith. At the same time, the deep sense of
                  > loneliness, which is not properly acknowledged on the conscious level,
                  > not even by many "spiritual" people, may give birth to the desire to
                  > communicate with artificial gadgets like living beings, even if those
                  > beings should be thoroughy evil and murderous. This is what rudolf
                  > Steiner referred to as "the positive longing for the Devil." This
                  > longing is indeed positive, because the isolated and lonely individual
                  > is finally cying out for the Spirit, even though this first encounter
                  > with the Spirit will be the world of demons. This was also the case with
                  > Christ according to the Mark Gospel account.
                  >
                  > But there is another interesting aspect involved here: This positive
                  > longing for the Devil sometimes translates into a rather pathological,
                  > and therefore negative, longing for political totalitarianism. This is
                  > very interesting, because a totalitarian Big Brother offers to take away
                  > your responsibility for your own life and your own actions, even your
                  > own thinking through the Orwellian thought police. And this is why
                  > political conspiracies are the wet dreams of wackos.
                  >
                  > Tarjei
                  >
                • elfuncle
                  The nutty rapture story with the twelve helium sex dolls and all that is obviously a hoax -- of you google a phrase from the piece in quotation marks, you find
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 25 12:44 PM
                    The nutty rapture story with the twelve helium sex dolls and all that is obviously a hoax -- of you google a phrase from the piece in quotation marks, you find it story all over the internet in rumor columns and blogs and private websites, but absolutely no news-media source. A hilarious rumor that people love to believe travels fast; try it out and see. I did a hoax like that myself some seven years ago, about the police raiding an old folks' home for drugs, violently shaking down 90-year olds and busting them -- only in Norwegian, I'm afraid, but you can dig the graphics:

                     http://uncletaz.com/norsktaz/kripos/hasjhjem.html

                    Tarjei

                    P.S. The holefolks have zero sense of humor except when something nasty and cruel happens to an anthroposophist, then they go "LOL". And they have absolutely no compassion either, with the sole exception of someone who has been beaten up and tortured by a Waldorf teacher.


                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher" <mhelsher@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > My God, that story would definitely qualify for the Darwin awards.
                    >
                    > This is a bit outdated but fits I think:
                    >
                    > http://www.freewebs.com/thefishercat/jesuslikesguns.htm
                    >
                    > Best
                    >
                    > Mike
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" coolvibes@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Fantastic!!
                    > >
                    > > http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/1161/jesus.htm
                    > > <http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/1161/jesus.htm>
                    > >
                    > > Jesus Kills!
                    > >
                    > > ARKANSAS CITY (EAP) -- A Little Rock woman was killed yesterday after
                    > > leaping through her moving car's sun roof during an incident best
                    > > described as "a mistaken rapture" by dozens of eye witnesses. Thirteen
                    > > other people were injured after a twenty-car pile up resulted from
                    > > people trying to avoid hitting the woman who was apparently convinced
                    > > that the rapture was occurring when she saw twelve people floating up
                    > > into the air, and then passed a man on the side of the road who she
                    > > claimed was Jesus.
                    > >
                    > > "She started screaming "He's back, He's back" and climbed right out of
                    > > the sunroof and jumped off the roof of the car," said Everett
                    > > Williams, husband of 28-year-old Georgann Williams who was pronounced
                    > > dead at the scene. "I was slowing down but she wouldn't wait till I
                    > > stopped," Williams said. She thought the rapture was happening and was
                    > > convinced that Jesus was gonna lift her up into the sky," he went on
                    > > to say.
                    > >
                    > > "This is the strangest thing I've seen since I've been on the
                    > > force," said Paul Madison, first officer on the scene. Madison
                    > > questioned the man who looked like Jesus and discovered that he was
                    > > dressed up as Jesus and was on his way to a toga costume party when
                    > > the tarp covering the bed of his pickup truck came loose and released
                    > > twelve blow up sex dolls filled with helium which floated up into the
                    > > air.
                    > >
                    > > Ernie Jenkins, 32, of Fort Smith, who's been told by several of his
                    > > friends that he looks like Jesus, pulled over and lifted his arms into
                    > > the air in frustration, and said, "Come back here," just as the
                    > > Williams' car passed him, and Mrs. Williams was sure that it was Jesus
                    > > lifting people up into the sky as they passed by him, according to her
                    > > husband, who says his wife loved Jesus more than anything else. When
                    > > asked for comments about the twelve sex dolls, Jenkins replied, "This
                    > > is all just too weird for me. I never expected anything like this to
                    > > happen."
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Tarjei
                    > >
                    > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                    > > <coolvibes@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Pure gold:
                    > > >
                    > > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/BuildStones/19170501p01.html
                    > > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/BuildStones/19170501p01.html>
                    > > >
                    > > > "Christianity as a historical reality must not be confused with
                    > > > that one root which its name recalls: the other roots from which it
                    > > > has sprung are by far the more important. It is an unprecedented
                    > > > abuse of language to associate such manifestations of decay and such
                    > > > monstrosities as the `Christian Church', `Christian
                    > > > belief' and `Christian life' with that Holy Name. What
                    > > > did Christ deny? — Everything which today is called
                    > > > Christian!"
                    > > >
                    > > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "Building Stones for an Understanding of the
                    > > > Mystery of Golgotha," Lecture 9, Berlin, 1st May, 1917, GA 175)
                    > > > Tarjei
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                    > > > coolvibes@ wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                    > > > > coolvibes@ wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > We're not talking about destructive technology at this point, such
                    > > > as
                    > > > > > Pentagon weaponry speculating in more clever and efficient ways to
                    > > > > > slaughter people, altough very much of our technology, including
                    > > > > > computers and the internet, weather satellites, Google Earth, has
                    > > > its
                    > > > > > genesis in military research and intelligence.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html
                    > > > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html>
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "Christ must not be sought as the various faiths seek Him today,
                    > > > faiths
                    > > > > that in a remarkable way have already acceded to every possible
                    > > > > compromise in interpreting Christ — here and there they have
                    > > even
                    > > > > agreed on how to celebrate the Christ as a god of slaughter."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Reappearance of Christ in the Etheric,"
                    > > > XIII,
                    > > > > "The Three Realms of the Dead: Life Between Death and a New Birth,"
                    > > > > Bern, 29th November, 1917, GA 182)
                    > > > > Tarjei
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >

                  • holderlin66
                    R.S. Whereas here our I is sunk into the physical organism so that it is an extract of the rest of nature, there our spirituality is sunk into the hierarchies
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 25 1:14 PM

                      R.S.

                      "Whereas here our I is sunk into the physical organism so that it is an extract of the rest of nature, there our spirituality is sunk into the hierarchies and is an extract of them. One can also say that there it is our spirituality with which we clothe ourselves, while here it is our bodily nature in which we are clothed when we come through the portal of birth."

                      Bradford comments;

                      Now some studies that I have felt held a real insight into the interworking with the Dead were such films like the "Sixth Sense" or a wonderful, wonderful film called "The Lady in White" or for that matter "Ghost" and "The Invisible"  or again "Truly, Madly, Deeply" or the great film, "What Dreams May C ome" can all easily be studied with the humor and warmth that is part of the uncharted area of actual science and human cognition that is left out of the mix when so called education attempts to and succeeds in screwing up all of our children.  Studied in relation to Spiritual Science lectures including the one listed below, we can begin to experience the Sychronistic Physics of how the dead operate through us and with us.  With these particular films in mind, we see that some few of us have remained alert enough, but still we are bound by the adult foolishness and scientfic arrogance that constantly attempts to diminsh and reduce these experiences to mere chemical aberrations of the brain. We are dealing with actual educational misfits, liars and Ahrimanic Schools and Lodges that have full campaigns out against grasping the world of the dead.

                      Christ the Lord of Slaughter applies to every single soul who supported the Iraq war the Gaza massacre by Israel and those who have failed to grasp the insidious work of False Flag terrorism as the core of Britain, Israel and the U.S. Ahrimanic intents.  Christ the Lord of Slaughter is an obvious, oh so obvious clear insight that Religions, Ahrimanic Religions would and do use Christianity to make people into complete morons.  Most Americans worm their way to churches on Sundays and let their dreary dull ears be filled with Ahrimanic propaganda and go out and applaud the troops we sent off to murder people who they don't give a hill of beans about because they are not living in their stupid idiotic neighborhoods and don't fawn over the illness that has become the American flag.  That is certainly part of the Memorial Day reality of remembering the Dead, but do the pulpits remember the slaughtered souls we bombed in Iraq or Israel murdered in Gaza or anybody else who died except their little trivial, brain lamed patriotic nationalistic mumbo jumbo?  Ahrimanic Lies in full color blaring off every unconscious foul headed idiot who will sure want to get into the real system of Life after Death when they cross over.  But they will be self exiled and continue along a fouled and foolish idiots path supported by the media itself. 
                       http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19171129p01.html


                      "Christ must not be sought as the various faiths seek Him today, faiths that in a remarkable way have already acceded to every possible compromise in interpreting Christ — here and there they have even agreed on how to celebrate the Christ as a god of slaughter."



                      ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Reappearance of Christ in the Etheric," XIII, "The Three Realms of the Dead: Life Between Death and a New Birth," Bern, 29th November, 1917, GA 182)
                      Tarjei

                      https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fantasticfiction.co.uk%2Fimages%2Fn43%2Fn219736.jpg&t=1495726285&sig=rBeCgeMk2zVLpYeJwt3DWg--~C

                      R.S.

                      "An essential aspect of life between death and a new birth is precisely that as souls we — if I may express myself trivially — increasingly widen our circle of acquaintances. Just as here in earthly existence we widen our experiences between birth and death, just as here we acquaint ourselves with more and more of the world around us, so there we undergo more and more experiences that relate us to the fact that one senses the existence of other souls, that one knows that through some of the souls one experiences a strengthening of the will, through others a weakening. This is an essential part of our experience there."

                      Bradford comments;

                      The very quality of the souls we make of ourselves, the quality of our love for how Spiritual Science and the logic of life opens vast insights beyond the threshold and how we become able to feel and hold these experiences, changes all of our contacts not only in our life on earth but also what intuitive and deeper forces we carry upward into the community of the dead.  Plus there are frightful and horrific lessons to be taught to those and us as well in regards to what imprisons the dead, forces them away from the spiritual world itself after death and surrounds them in a self enclosed exile and prison with hellish consequences.  We might fathom just how much mockery and materialistic selfish exiled and foolish education were and are the things that people dump on everyone as lies here on earth, but as the smell and scent of a build up of anything to do with real spiritual insights repel souls, and we feel this in the way we must veil and hide some of our insights against the very armed attacks of arrogant materilism that finds there instant gratification life of superficial views sufficient to mock anybody who is solidly rooted in common sense spiritual science.  We can encounter this self built wave of antipathy and somewhere inside there is a dislike a growing disdain and even repulsion for truly higher insights because it weighs on the whole destiny and future unfolding of souls who happily teach everyone and their children that there is nothing but vague blah, blah and matter and materialism and tra-la-la prove it to me.

                      https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmichaelsmoviemania.files.wordpress.com%2F2007%2F10%2Fbeetlejuice.jpg&t=1495726285&sig=alUuhT8sRvhqBOaIwk2JUw--~C

                      R.S.

                      "For some this lasts but a short time, for others longer. One can scarcely tell from the way an earthly life has taken its course how it will be after death. Many personalities, many souls whom one would not have expected, appear in the sphere of the dead person, because from the physical life one can easily make a wrong assessment. There is a fundamental law, however, that the karmic circle gradually widens, and the whole process of becoming acquainted in this circle takes place exactly as I described it in the Vienna lecture cycle, (see  Note 10 ) where I dealt with life between death and a new birth. What I described there as an important element in the life of the dead is precisely this expanding life of will impulses. The will impulses are now for the dead what mental pictures are for the living, through which the dead person knows, through which he has his consciousness. It is extraordinarily difficult to explain to earthly human beings that a dead person knows essentially through the will, while the earthly human being knows through forming mental pictures. Obviously, this also makes it difficult to come to an understanding with the dead.

                      https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.insideadog.com.au%2Fresidence%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F10%2Fspooks.jpg&t=1495726285&sig=078hZMe4VkcbmttVD9WeVg--~C

                      One can thus say that this realm entered by the dead as their second realm gradually widens. Later (this is always relative: for one it happens sooner, for another later) more distant karmic relationships are added to immediate ones. I mean this in the following way. When a dead person has spent a certain time in his life between death and a new birth, the circle of his experiences has widened and stretched beyond those souls — be they on earth or over yonder — with whom he had had particularly close karmic relationships. These souls now have karmic relationships apart from those of the dead person. It is like this: person A has a certain relationship with person B but not with person C. One sees how the dead person A lives with B as I have described and expands his experiences beyond B. Later it comes about that B becomes a go-between to person C. Previously A had had no relationship to C, but now he acquires that relationship directly through B's having a karmic relationship to C. Through this, the second realm slowly, gradually expands over an extremely large area. One becomes ever richer, as it were, in such inner experiences, experiences of strengthening or weakening the will, experiences that gradually accustom us to the realm of the dead — or living souls — after we ourselves have gone through the portal of death."

                      Bradford comments;

                      Memorial Day, and the dead.  It is fitting to review in my mind's eye, what I gathered from reading the lecture, offered by the most honest and clear minded Intelligence of the entire 20th and so far 21st century. The dead.  One of the salient aspects of the Science of observing the difference between our physical and mineral mental percepts here on Earth, was how Dr. Steiner posed the investigation of the mineral world, here and our identities here, and our ego here, as posing a different relationship, when the spiritual world opens up, the hierarchies are our elders and the source of our higher I AM system, rooted in the hierarchies after death.  Now that may seem simple, and it is, to a degree but it was of great interest.

                      Our interior sense of sympathies and antipathies could be compared to the animal kingdom's natural field of operation.  But Steiner wove the insights into what we absorb as Ahrimanic materialistic religion of deception here on earth, and the intimate circle upon widening circle of humanities interconnected karma.  A knows B and A has not met C but B knows C and thereby a whole concrete world of Karma and destiny weave right down into every unconscious will impulse we make and our feeling and dream lives.  The living reality of the dead as they weave in our impulses play a detailed and living part of the entire uncharted area of our will impulses.

                      So in a Spiritual World conception and a Spiritual Science based solid view of the Science of humanity, the intimacies of karma and destiny weave tangents and widening circles and the dead who have been connected to the living weave down into the will impulses, instincts, passions and antipathies and sympathies of those that they were connected with here on Earth.  Otherwise, the mineral ground no longer serves as the solid base point of impressions, but rather the intimate interconnected karma that wove in souls. 

                      Now the more humanity widened it's reach and outreach, say, the once wonderful and still living being of Harvey or Paulina or the tragedy of my friend Paul Platt, Rene Querido and his wife Merlyn and hundreds of others on Earth I have met, as well as the feelings and music of souls we have listened to that are gone, their films and earthly images and our linked memories of what moments, music, places and time meant to us, have expanded and include the vast uncharted world of the dead as they weave through our impulses.  Impulses that Steiner indicates we are clueless to see the magnificent forces that allow us to lift an arm or take a step.

                      But we all have relatives and these relatives and friends come right up to the threshold when we have Near Death Experiences and wave to us from the opposite shore.  I have a neighbor whose son was a wonderful Ballet dancer who this year finally succumbed to AIDS.  Now she has no spiritual insight, but as I sit on my porch at night, after she has had a few drinks, she comes to me and talks to me, because her husband Erik doesn't have any insights and denies anything over the threshold, she how ever has been haunted by dreams where her son tells her she is alright and okay, but this has not cured her of a kind of manic depression at her loss...but her very loss, the dead, as I have attempted to convey to her, her son is truly confiding in her from over the threshold because he is okay, everyone enters the system and the system is so different than Ahrimanic materialism has presented that right at the threshold of dream, her son is truly saying to her, he has arrived safely and is looking out for her best interests.

                      I have another friend I work with who is a little, depleted and thinned former Gulf War vet and a little frail because she really has the much hidden Gulf War Syndrome and is a hard line military girl, woman, a little younger than I am but looking thin and wearied, yet she served strongly in the military as female officer.  I am slowly working on her change of insight, because she is noble and worthy of friendship and she will finally through depleted uranium and illness, eventually just wither away.  But for the present she is working side by side with me and we share heart warmth, without delving into the current political issues or past choices made, she needs what carries her upwards, that there is a standard threshold experience and such a simple book as The Seven People You Meet After Death....

                      Well Steiner lays the framework down as we weave with the hierarchies as our new I AM identity, even if the former mineral image of who we were resonates, that ego part of memory reveals connections and contacts linked upwards and inwards to the whole world of where the dead are active.  Steiner also calls us to understand again and again biography and destiny and the science patterns that are woven with biographical rhythms.  We have discussed laying out the tracks of 18.6 to around 19 and 20 years of age as a precise marker for the Moon return and marking a kind of real first birthday.  But we break down the seven year rhythm patterns and Saturn returns and the 29th and 30 th year and the mid point 33 to 35 deep point in our biographical curve...we find the Christ and the world of the Dead weaving in this special region where the intimacies of destiny and karma are operative.

                      I have researched the synchronistic events where strictly by physics accident and coincidence, which there are no accidents really, but where people come and meet each other, call each other and arrive at our restaurants wearing exactly the same color schemes, happens again and again.  Now the simple observations of the intimacy of how the dead play into us stuck in traffic, or unable to leave our house on time, or little things that obviously annoy the crap out of us, are time wedges where the what if factor and what if protection and what if time field of observations tells us that we were prevented from coming to harm if we had left early or forced our way.  Steiner talks about a voice and a sudden boulder bounding down a mountain side when someone is taking a walk along a familiar route and is suddenly struck in mid stride by a thought.  They pause just in time, by hearing an inner voice, not to be killed. 

                      R.S.

                      "It is, of course, a strange fact that man, in his ordinary consciousness as a physical, earthly person, experiences clearly only his sense perceptions and his thoughts. Waking consciousness only exists in this perception and thinking. Feelings are actually only dreamt, and the will is generally slept through. No person knows what happens when he just raises a hand, that is, when the will plays into his bodily organism, in the same way that he knows his thoughts. There is also the rule of the feelings; although this is somewhat clearer in consciousness than the rule of the will, it is still dark; it is no brighter than the pictures we have in our dreams. Passions, emotions, feelings are in truth only dreamt; they are not experienced in the light of consciousness that lives in the sense perceptions and mental pictures, and our will is not experienced consciously at all.

                      In all that plays into waking life as dream or sleep, the dead are living. They live with souls who are incarnated in physical bodies on the earth. They live in them just as we live within the plant world, except that we are not inwardly bound to the plant world as the dead are to our feelings, emotions, and will impulses. They live continually in all of that. This is their second realm. While here we unfold our feelings and sensations in human life, the dead live in this life continually, and indeed in such a way that the fluctuating, which I have just been describing as the strengthening and weakening of the will, as the increasing or declining of the will of the dead, has a certain relation to what here on earth the so-called living are dreaming and sleeping through as feelings and will impulses.

                      You can see, therefore, how little the realm of the dead is separated from our earthly realm and what an inner bond there is between these two realms. As I have said, under normal conditions (with certain exceptions that I will mention later), the dead have nothing to do with the mineral and plant realms, but they have very much to do with what goes on in the animal realm. That is in a sense the ground on which they stand. They also have much to do with what goes on in the realm of human feeling and human will. In these realms we are not separated from the dead at all, but it is like this: when one goes through the portal of death and experiences the strengthening and weakening of the will, one can live with the so-called living in their physical bodies, though not with everyone. There a definite law holds sway: one can live only with those to whom one is to some degree karmically related. Someone living here who is karmically a total stranger is not even perceptible to a dead person; he simply does not exist. The world that the dead person experiences has boundaries that were made by his own karma that had harnessed him here in life. This world is not limited only to souls who are still on earth; it extends also to souls who themselves have gone through the portal of death."

                      Bradford concludes;

                      The following tidbit of how we clothe ourselves after death vs how we admired ourselves in the mirror while on Earth in a mineral body should come to enlighten the dull souls that we are that we clothe ourselves in our garments of heart and soul and intuition, and our depth of compassion and actual solid insights after death.  We clothe ourselves not with military uniforms or corporate affiliations but with the substance of what we have inwardly opened in ourselves that have grown our humanity and others in the process.  The Science of mineral realm, plant realm, animal realm and I Am realm switches once we cross the Threshold and such words and thoughts given to humanity are utterly priceless, priceless.  The actual substance of what we get every single day of our lives in wasted selfish and sentimental conversations with little or no substance and from a sentence, a single or two sentences we understand the potent intimacy of brotherhood and compassion that weaves through the Lord of Karma and the world of the dead or the horror.   We have to go to Apocalypse Now and Brando's embracing of horror in the extreme or just simply look and listen to anyone on any street in America and realize what emptiness, materialism and instinctive hatred and dislike exists for anyone who carries with them warmed and bravely clear spiritual insights against their entrenched and Ahrimanic beliefs.

                      R.S.

                      "Just as here on earth the animal realm stands as a third realm above the mineral and plant realms, so across the threshold we perceive as a third realm the realm of certain hierarchies, a realm with beings who never experience earthly incarnations but with whom we come into relation between death and a new birth. This realm of the hierarchies is across the threshold the same thing as what gives us between death and a new birth the fully intense experiences of our I. Through the first two realms we experience "the other"; through the hierarchies we experience ourselves. One can even say that as a spiritual being within the hierarchies man experiences himself as a son, as a child of the hierarchies. He knows himself as be is related to the other human souls as I have described it; he knows himself at the same time as a child of the hierarchies. As he feels himself here, when he perceives himself in the cosmos, as a fusion of the outer, natural forces and the surrounding cosmos, so across the threshold he feels himself organized, as it were, as a spiritual being through participation of the different hierarchies.

                      Here, if we observe ourselves as human beings — this should certainly not engender any pride in us — we see the so-called lower realm of nature and ourselves placed at the peak of these realms of nature. We go through the portal of death and find over there that we are on the lowest level of the realms of the hierarchies but as the fusion of impulses from the hierarchies. There, however, the fusion comes from above, while here it ascends from below. Whereas here our I is sunk into the physical organism so that it is an extract of the rest of nature, there our spirituality is sunk into the hierarchies and is an extract of them. One can also say that there it is our spirituality with which we clothe ourselves, while here it is our bodily nature in which we are clothed when we come through the portal of birth."

                    • Frank Thomas Smith
                      ... T: In the eighties they used to say, Let Reagan be Reagan. So by the same ... by ... seems ... F: Actually, Tarjei, by clones I don t mean fans or even
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 25 2:47 PM
                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <coolvibes@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                        > eltrigal78@ wrote:
                        >
                        > > Good grief, another Bradford clone. They're sprouting like poisonous
                        > mushrooms around here. But not to fear, with the coming of the Super
                        > Brain we won't even need Bradford anymore:
                        > >
                        >
                        T:  In the eighties they used to say, "Let Reagan be Reagan." So by the same
                        > token, why not let Bradford be Bradford, or if he prefers, let
                        > Hölderlin be Hölderlin? This German poet wrote hard-hitting
                        > esoterica -- "The Fire of the Gods Drives Us to Set Forth by Day and by
                        > Night."
                        >
                        > And like Hölderlin, Bradford is obviously also on fire, and he seems
                        > to have his fans -- or "clones" if you prefer, Frank -- some of whom
                        > are, alas, more or less wackos.

                        F: Actually, Tarjei, by clones I don't mean fans or even wackos, but Bradford himself, iow self-congratulatory trolls. This may seem far-fetched, but as you know I am an experienced, intuitive investigator of such phenomena:
                        https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trollske.se%2Fbutik%2Fimages%2FTroll-Father-Pappa.jpg&t=1495726285&sig=jPFYUelQVYXP.cFBJF7Hww--~C

                        Frank

                      • write3chairs
                        ... It s strange thinking about all of this, Tarjei, but it s true. It s happening. Yesterday, I was wondering about the technology which gives us artificial
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 26 8:36 AM
                          > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/anthroposo phy_tomorrow/ message/38707

                          > The central idea is that artificial intelligence,
                          > which is imbedded in our computer software,
                          > calculators etc. and in many ways exceeds human
                          > intelligence (especially technical memory, chess, etc,)
                          > will make an evolutionary leap and become self-aware
                          > artificial consciousness.

                          It's strange thinking about all of this, Tarjei, but it's
                          true. It's happening. Yesterday, I was wondering about the
                          technology which gives us artificial "voices" as in the
                          computerized female voice in the GPS system in my brother's
                          car. We've been tooling around Europe the last few days,
                          on vacation, and talking to the device mounted on the
                          rearview mirror of his car, treating it almost as if it
                          is a human being. The device is such a great tool for
                          navigating strange and winding roads, finding your way
                          around in unfamiliar territory. And it almost seems human.
                          Except that it is not; the voice is entirely computer-
                          generated. And what's more, this is one of the simpler
                          technologies. Emulating the human voice, making a machine
                          sound like a human, is easy to do, comparatively speaking.
                          I think it's important to be mindful of the word artificial,
                          though, and recognize the human body does things on its
                          own. It walks, talks, sleeps, sings, sees, hears, etc.,
                          does all of these things without any of it being programmed
                          in or created by other human hands. I know I am stating the
                          obvious, but Tarjei your posting just reminded me of how
                          we were talking to the GPS device as if "she" could hear us.

                          Jenny
                        • elfuncle
                          I don t understand what you mean by it s happening. I have a Garmin nuvi 205W GPS Navigator in my own car. And it s positively not human or alive in any
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 26 10:25 AM
                            I don't understand what you mean by "it's happening." I have a Garmin nuvi 205W GPS Navigator in my own car.




                            And it's positively not "human" or alive in any manner whatsoever. It's no more "human" or alive than your TV set, computer, refrigirator or washing machine, although all such electric devices are run through the energies of ahrimanic elementals, whom we humans employ as servants. It reads your navigation from satellites and if you activate the voice feature, it puts words together, phonetic sounds just like when you call a phone number service for the date and time, or some address & phone number. So someone reads in all the necessary words and phonetics, and when the info from the satellites are fed into the GPS computer system, it's translated into spoken language this way. It's thoroughly automated and the voice is therefore awful, it doesn't sound human. although the phonetic sounds that have been fed into the software have been recorded from a human voice.  And I've tried several voice options. I got tired of the Norwegian voice so I switched to American English, which was terrible, I tried the British english which was not quite so terrible, switched back to the Norwegian, keeping it as default because I drive in the Oslo area, but the voices are all mechanical and awful, which doesn't mean that the device isn't useful, it's fun to play with as well.

                            This does not mean that artificial intelligence is evolving into self-aware artificial consciousness in any shape or form. Some people, including anthroposophists, have believed that at least since home computers came around. Somebody had created a file and called it "Ahriman," and then a message popped up saying "Ahriman cannot be saved," and they thought therefore that the computer, or Ahriman, was shoeing a sense of humor like some kind of living being.

                            Next time you're listening to your brother's GPS, consider this:
                             
                             http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA010/English/GA010_c02.html 

                            "The student has also to bestow a further care on the world of sound. He must discriminate between sounds that are produced by the so-called inert (lifeless) bodies, for instance, a bell, or a musical instrument, or a falling mass, and those which proceed from a living creature (an animal or a human being.) When a bell is struck, we hear the sound and connect a pleasant feeling with it; but when we hear the cry of an animal, we can, besides our own feeling, detect through it the manifestation of an inward experience of the animal, whether of pleasure or pain. It is with the latter kind of sound that the student sets to work. He must concentrate his whole attention on the fact that the sound tells him of something that lies outside his own soul. He must immerse himself in this foreign thing. He must closely unite his own feeling with the pleasure or pain of which the sound tells him. He must get beyond the point of caring whether, for him, the sound is pleasant or unpleasant, agreeable or disagreeable, and his soul must be filled with whatever is occurring in the being from which the sound proceeds. Through such exercises, if systematically and deliberately performed, the student will develop within himself the faculty of intermingling, as it were, with the being from which the sound proceeds. A person sensitive to music will find it easier than one who is unmusical to cultivate his inner life in this way; but no one should suppose that a mere sense for music can take the place of this inner activity. The student must learn to feel in this way in the face of the whole of nature. This implants a new faculty in his world of thought and feeling. Through her resounding tones, the whole of nature begins to whisper her secrets to the student. What was hitherto merely incomprehensible noise to his soul becomes by this means a coherent language of nature. And whereas hitherto he only heard sound from the so-called inanimate objects, he now is aware of a new language of the soul. Should he advance further in this inner culture, he will soon learn that he can hear what hitherto he did not even surmise. He begins to hear with the soul."

                            ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, II, The Stages of Initiation, written in 1904, GA 10)

                            Of course this challenge is far greater with high quality recorded sound, but it's crucial that we learn to perceive the difference between what comes from the mineral kingdom and electrical energies on the one hand, and living sentient beings on the other hand, which also include purely spiritual (non-corporeal) beings when the threshold is crossed. The confusion of these categories is part and parcel of the Ahrimanic deception.

                            Tarjei



                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs" <write3chairs@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/anthroposo phy_tomorrow/ message/38707
                            >
                            > > The central idea is that artificial intelligence,
                            > > which is imbedded in our computer software,
                            > > calculators etc. and in many ways exceeds human
                            > > intelligence (especially technical memory, chess, etc,)
                            > > will make an evolutionary leap and become self-aware
                            > > artificial consciousness.
                            >
                            > It's strange thinking about all of this, Tarjei, but it's
                            > true. It's happening. Yesterday, I was wondering about the
                            > technology which gives us artificial "voices" as in the
                            > computerized female voice in the GPS system in my brother's
                            > car. We've been tooling around Europe the last few days,
                            > on vacation, and talking to the device mounted on the
                            > rearview mirror of his car, treating it almost as if it
                            > is a human being. The device is such a great tool for
                            > navigating strange and winding roads, finding your way
                            > around in unfamiliar territory. And it almost seems human.
                            > Except that it is not; the voice is entirely computer-
                            > generated. And what's more, this is one of the simpler
                            > technologies. Emulating the human voice, making a machine
                            > sound like a human, is easy to do, comparatively speaking.
                            > I think it's important to be mindful of the word artificial,
                            > though, and recognize the human body does things on its
                            > own. It walks, talks, sleeps, sings, sees, hears, etc.,
                            > does all of these things without any of it being programmed
                            > in or created by other human hands. I know I am stating the
                            > obvious, but Tarjei your posting just reminded me of how
                            > we were talking to the GPS device as if "she" could hear us.
                            >
                            > Jenny
                            >

                          • lightsearcher1
                            From the aforementioned New York Times Superbrain article: ...a self-aware computing system would emerge spontaneously from the interconnections of billions
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 31 7:17 PM
                              From the aforementioned New York Times "Superbrain" article:

                              "...a self-aware computing system would emerge spontaneously from the interconnections of billions of computers and computer networks..."

                              http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html

                              Comment:

                              With our near-obsessive use of this modern tool ("even the Elect shall be deceived") and the continuous ramping up of its technical capacities, it is quite possible we are setting down the objective material/spiritual foundations of the interlocking ("internet-ed")  mesh of ahrimanic beings Steiner described in 1921.

                              : : :

                              A Picture of Earth-Evolution in the Future

                              Lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                              Dornach, May 13th, 1921 (GA 204)

                              ...But try to imagine what will happen if men go on unfolding no other kinds of thoughts until the time is reached in the eighth millennium for the moon-existence to unite again with the earth.

                              These Beings of whom I have spoken will gradually come down to the earth -- Vulcan Beings, `Supermen' of Vulcan, `Supermen' of Venus, of Mercury, of the Sun, will unite with this earth-existence.

                              But if human beings persist in nothing but opposition to them, earth-existence will pass over into chaos in the course of the next few thousand years.

                              It will be quite possible for the men of earth, if they so wish, to develop a more and more automatic form of intellect.

                              But that can also happen amid conditions of barbarism.

                              Full and complete manhood, however, cannot come to expression in such a form of intellect, and men will have no relationship to the Beings who would fain come towards them in earth-existence.

                              And all those Beings of whom men have such an erroneous conception because the shadowy intellect can only grasp the mineral nature, the crudely material nature in the minerals, plants and animals, nay even in the human kingdom itself — all these thoughts which have no reality will in a trice become substantial realities when the moon unites again with the earth.

                              And from the earth there will spring forth a terrible brood of beings, a brood of automata of an order of existence lying between the mineral and the plant kingdoms, and possessed of an overwhelming power of intellect.

                              This swarm will seize upon the earth, will spread over the earth like a network of ghastly, spider-like creatures, of an order lower than that of plant-existence, but possessed of overpowering wisdom.

                              These spidery creatures will be all interlocked with one another, and in their outward movements they will imitate the thoughts that men have spun out of the shadowy intellect that has not allowed itself to be quickened by the new form of Imaginative Knowledge by Spiritual Science. All the thoughts that lack substance and reality will then be endowed with being.

                              The earth will be surrounded — as it is now with air and as it sometimes is with swarms of locusts — with a brood of terrible spider-like creatures, half-mineral, half-plant, interweaving with masterly intelligence, it is true, but with intensely evil intent.

                              And in so far as man has not allowed his shadowy intellectual concepts to be quickened to life, his existence will be united not with the Beings who have been trying to descend since the last third of the nineteenth century, but with this ghastly brood of half-mineral, half-plantlike creatures. He will have to live together with these spider-like creatures and to continue his cosmic existence within the order of evolution into which this brood will then enter.

                              This is a destiny that is very emphatically part of human evolution upon the earth, and it is quite well known today by many of those who try to hold humanity back from the knowledge of Spiritual Science.

                              For there are men who are actually conscious allies of this process of the entanglement of earth-existence.

                              http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19210513p01.html

                              Also see:
                              http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/PacificJ29.pdf

                              [End quote]


                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > This "Superbrain" religion, is part of the Ahrimanian Deception, if you
                              > can make a Superbrain, then man is only an animal, not even better than
                              > an physical construct...
                              > /Kim

                              > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                              > > eltrigal78@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html


                            • barbara_penzance
                              Hello, Yes, this interlocking web is already in place; it s like a grid stretching over the whole earth, and it is what makes spiritual perception so
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
                                Hello,
                                Yes, this 'interlocking web' is already in place; it's like a grid stretching over the whole earth, and it is what makes spiritual perception so difficult. What science sees as electromagnetic impulses, the clairvoyant can see as a sort of demon-infested net.
                                See also this bit:-

                                "Well, the whole way in which people construct machines varies greatly according to the nature of the machine in question; but everything tends towards the gradual development of these still imperfect, primitive machines into a kind of machine which depends upon vibrations, and where the aim is to make the machines effective by means of vibrations or oscillations, by means of movements which run a periodic course. Everything is hastening towards such machines. But if once these machines in their coordinated activity could be constructed in such a way as can be learned from the distribution of foodstuffs in the organization of the cow, then the vibrations which would be conjured up on the earth-globe through the machines, these small earth-vibrations, would so run their course that what is above the earth would sound together with, vibrate together with what is happening on the earth; so that our planetary system in its movements would be compelled to vibrate with our earth-system, just as a string tuned to a certain pitch vibrates in sympathy when another one is struck in the same room.

                                That is the terrible law of the sounding in unison of vibrations which would be fulfilled if the alluring call of the cow would so decoy the orient that it would then be able to penetrate in an absolutely convincing way into the unspiritual, purely mechanistic civilization of the west and centre; and thereby it would become possible to conjure up on the earth a mechanistic system fitting exactly into the mechanistic system of the universe. Through this everything connected with the working of air, with the forces of the circumference, and everything connected with the working of the stars, would be exterminated from human civilization. What man experiences, for instance, through the cycle of the year, what he experiences through living together with the sprouting, budding life of spring, with the fading, dying life of autumn — all this would lose its import for him. Human civilization would resound with the clattering and rattling of the vibrating machines and with the echo of this clattering and rattling which would stream down upon the earth from the cosmos as a reaction to this mechanisation of the earth."

                                The cosmic Beings have found it very hard to get through to humans in the last 7 years, because of this 'net' covering the earth.

                                Steiner saw these things a hundred years ago; they weren't 'prophecies' in the sense of forecasts which may or may not happen, they were definite stages which would come about. But because of the failure of "Plan A" for the 20th century, things have been accelerated. We have the War of All Against All (egoism) for instance, right now.
                                We also have more power, though. Steiner points out somewhere that Christ's incarnation had to be brought forward by several hundred years; similarly now, although we are facing things which shouldn't have happened for thousands more years, we do have the spiritual strength to cope with them. And evil doesn't last for very long; it has the seeds of its own destruction within it.

                                Love, Barbara






                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "lightsearcher1" <lightsearcher1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > From the aforementioned New York Times "Superbrain" article:
                                >
                                > "...a self-aware computing system would emerge spontaneously from the
                                > interconnections of billions of computers and computer networks..."
                                >
                                > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html
                                >
                                > Comment:
                                >
                                > With our near-obsessive use of this modern tool ("even the Elect shall
                                > be deceived") and the continuous ramping up of its technical capacities,
                                > it is quite possible we are setting down the objective
                                > material/spiritual foundations of the interlocking ("internet-ed") mesh
                                > of ahrimanic beings Steiner described in 1921.
                                >
                                > : : :
                                >
                                > A Picture of Earth-Evolution in the Future
                                >
                                > Lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                                > Dornach, May 13th, 1921 (GA 204)
                                >
                                > ...But try to imagine what will happen if men go on unfolding no other
                                > kinds of thoughts until the time is reached in the eighth millennium for
                                > the moon-existence to unite again with the earth.
                                >
                                > These Beings of whom I have spoken will gradually come down to the earth
                                > -- Vulcan Beings, `Supermen' of Vulcan, `Supermen' of
                                > Venus, of Mercury, of the Sun, will unite with this earth-existence.
                                >
                                > But if human beings persist in nothing but opposition to them,
                                > earth-existence will pass over into chaos in the course of the next few
                                > thousand years.
                                >
                                > It will be quite possible for the men of earth, if they so wish, to
                                > develop a more and more automatic form of intellect.
                                >
                                > But that can also happen amid conditions of barbarism.
                                >
                                > Full and complete manhood, however, cannot come to expression in such a
                                > form of intellect, and men will have no relationship to the Beings who
                                > would fain come towards them in earth-existence.
                                >
                                > And all those Beings of whom men have such an erroneous conception
                                > because the shadowy intellect can only grasp the mineral nature, the
                                > crudely material nature in the minerals, plants and animals, nay even in
                                > the human kingdom itself — all these thoughts which have no reality
                                > will in a trice become substantial realities when the moon unites again
                                > with the earth.
                                >
                                > And from the earth there will spring forth a terrible brood of beings, a
                                > brood of automata of an order of existence lying between the mineral and
                                > the plant kingdoms, and possessed of an overwhelming power of intellect.
                                >
                                > This swarm will seize upon the earth, will spread over the earth like a
                                > network of ghastly, spider-like creatures, of an order lower than that
                                > of plant-existence, but possessed of overpowering wisdom.
                                >
                                > These spidery creatures will be all interlocked with one another, and in
                                > their outward movements they will imitate the thoughts that men have
                                > spun out of the shadowy intellect that has not allowed itself to be
                                > quickened by the new form of Imaginative Knowledge by Spiritual Science.
                                > All the thoughts that lack substance and reality will then be endowed
                                > with being.
                                >
                                > The earth will be surrounded — as it is now with air and as it
                                > sometimes is with swarms of locusts — with a brood of terrible
                                > spider-like creatures, half-mineral, half-plant, interweaving with
                                > masterly intelligence, it is true, but with intensely evil intent.
                                >
                                > And in so far as man has not allowed his shadowy intellectual concepts
                                > to be quickened to life, his existence will be united not with the
                                > Beings who have been trying to descend since the last third of the
                                > nineteenth century, but with this ghastly brood of half-mineral,
                                > half-plantlike creatures. He will have to live together with these
                                > spider-like creatures and to continue his cosmic existence within the
                                > order of evolution into which this brood will then enter.
                                >
                                > This is a destiny that is very emphatically part of human evolution upon
                                > the earth, and it is quite well known today by many of those who try to
                                > hold humanity back from the knowledge of Spiritual Science.
                                >
                                > For there are men who are actually conscious allies of this process of
                                > the entanglement of earth-existence.
                                >
                                > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19210513p01.html
                                >
                                > Also see: http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/PacificJ29.pdf
                                >
                                > [End quote]
                                >
                                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > This "Superbrain" religion, is part of the Ahrimanian Deception, if
                                > you
                                > > can make a Superbrain, then man is only an animal, not even better
                                > than
                                > > an physical construct...
                                > > /Kim
                                >
                                > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                                > > > eltrigal78@ wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/weekinreview/24markoff.html
                                >
                              • write3chairs
                                ... What I meant was that technology and science is bearing down on us more all the time. I am reminded of a book my daughter was assigned to read in the math
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" wrote:

                                  > I don't understand what you mean by "it's happening."

                                  What I meant was that technology and science is bearing down on us more all the time. I am reminded of a book my daughter was assigned to read in the math and science academy she attended for her junior and senior year of high school. Prior to the first day of class, all the students were required to read ENOUGH, by Bill McKibben. They also discussed it in small groups over the summer.

                                  > I have a Garmin nuvi 205W GPS Navigator in my own car.
                                  > And it's positively not "human" or alive in any manner whatsoever. > It's no more "human" or alive than your TV set, computer,
                                  > refrigirator or washing machine, although all such electric
                                  > devices are run through the energies of ahrimanic elementals,
                                  > whom we humans employ as servants. It reads your navigation
                                  > from satellites and if you activate the voice feature, it puts
                                  > words together, phonetic sounds just like when you call
                                  > a phone number service for the date and time, or some address
                                  > & phone number. So someone reads in all the necessary words
                                  > and phonetics, and when the info from the satellites are fed
                                  > into the GPS computer system, it's translated into spoken
                                  > language this way. It's thoroughly automated and the voice
                                  > is therefore awful, it doesn't sound human. although the
                                  > phonetic sounds that have been fed into the software have
                                  > been recorded from a human voice. And I've tried several
                                  > voice options. I got tired of the Norwegian voice so I
                                  > switched to American English, which was terrible, I tried
                                  > the British english which was not quite so terrible,
                                  > switched back to the Norwegian, keeping it as default because
                                  > I drive in the Oslo area, but the voices are all mechanical
                                  > and awful, which doesn't mean that the device isn't useful,
                                  > it's fun to play with as well.
                                  >
                                  > This does not mean that artificial intelligence is evolving into
                                  > self-aware artificial consciousness in any shape or form.
                                  > Some people, including anthroposophists, have believed that
                                  > at least since home computers came around. Somebody had created
                                  > a file and called it "Ahriman," and then a message popped up
                                  > saying "Ahriman cannot be saved," and they thought therefore
                                  > that the computer, or Ahriman, was shoeing a sense of humor
                                  > like some kind of living being.
                                  >
                                  > Next time you're listening to your brother's GPS, consider this:
                                  >
                                  > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA010/English/GA010_c02.html
                                  > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA010/English/GA010_c02.html>
                                  >
                                  > "The student has also to bestow a further care on the world
                                  > of sound. He must discriminate between sounds that are produced
                                  > by the so-called inert (lifeless) bodies, for instance, a bell,
                                  > or a musical instrument, or a falling mass, and those which
                                  > proceed from a living creature (an animal or a human being.)
                                  > When a bell is struck, we hear the sound and connect a pleasant
                                  > feeling with it; but when we hear the cry of an animal, we can,
                                  > besides our own feeling, detect through it the manifestation of
                                  > an inward experience of the animal, whether of pleasure or pain.
                                  > It is with the latter kind of sound that the student sets to
                                  > work. He must concentrate his whole attention on the fact that
                                  > the sound tells him of something that lies outside his own soul.
                                  > He must immerse himself in this foreign thing. He must closely
                                  > unite his own feeling with the pleasure or pain of which the
                                  > sound tells him. He must get beyond the point of caring whether,
                                  > for him, the sound is pleasant or unpleasant, agreeable or
                                  > disagreeable, and his soul must be filled with whatever is
                                  > occurring in the being from which the sound proceeds.
                                  > Through such exercises, if systematically and deliberately
                                  > performed, the student will develop within himself the faculty
                                  > of intermingling, as it were, with the being from which the
                                  > sound proceeds. A person sensitive to music will find it
                                  > easier than one who is unmusical to cultivate his inner life
                                  > in this way; but no one should suppose that a mere sense for
                                  > music can take the place of this inner activity. The student
                                  > must learn to feel in this way in the face of the whole of
                                  > nature. This implants a new faculty in his world of thought
                                  > and feeling.
                                  > Through her resounding tones, the whole of nature begins to
                                  > whisper her secrets to the student. What was hitherto merely
                                  > incomprehensible noise to his soul becomes by this means
                                  > a coherent language of nature. And whereas hitherto he only
                                  > heard sound from the so-called inanimate objects, he now is
                                  > aware of a new language of the soul. Should he advance further
                                  > in this inner culture, he will soon learn that he can
                                  > hear what hitherto he did not even surmise. He begins to hear
                                  > with the soul."
                                  >
                                  > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, II,
                                  > The Stages of Initiation, written in 1904, GA 10)
                                  >
                                  > Of course this challenge is far greater with high quality
                                  > recorded sound, but it's crucial that we learn to perceive
                                  > the difference between what comes from the mineral kingdom
                                  > and electrical energies on the one hand, and living sentient
                                  > beings on the other hand, which also include purely spiritual
                                  > (non-corporeal) beings when the threshold is crossed.
                                  > The confusion of these categories is part and parcel of the
                                  > Ahrimanic deception.
                                  >
                                  > Tarjei

                                  Thanks for this, Tarjei. It is enlightening. And yet music wouldn't even be possible if not for human influence. Nor would those GPS devices work if not for humans using their faculties to create the technology that makes it all possible.

                                  You also remind me of a conversation I had yesterday with a female friend who was describing a kind of mental and emotional torture that doesn't even come close to physical pain. A soul wound. The kind of feeling that arises when a person is treated with cruelty or even indifference, which can feel like abandonment or neglect. I learned some shocking news yesterday, from my daughter. A close friend of hers recently revealed that her father had been molesting her since (at least) she was five years old. It's continued over time, too, even as recent as a few weeks ago. I cannot comprehend the mindset of a person who could do that to his own daughter. Unconscionable barely describes it. This is also an example of the "soul wound" my friend was talking about. How does a person heal a soul wound?

                                  What would Rudolf do? (WWRD)

                                  Jenny
                                • elfuncle
                                  ... more all the time. That s very true, but it doesn t mean singularity is happening, although it s great movie fantasy material. ... He would probably have
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs" <write3chairs@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I don't understand what you mean by "it's happening."
                                    >
                                    > What I meant was that technology and science is bearing down on us more all the time.


                                    That's very true, but it doesn't mean singularity is happening, although it's great movie fantasy material.

                                    > What would Rudolf do? (WWRD)

                                    He would probably have checked out GPS, and now he's our mutual Facebook friend :) ; he criticized alarmists against technological developents; there were those in the 19th century who thought cattle would get nervous disorders or something because of trains passing by. And he once remarked about the novelty of riding in an automobile, although he never drove one.

                                    Tarjei
                                  • elfuncle
                                    On the other hand, Jennifer, we also have this: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA026/English/RSP1973/GA026_c29.html
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
                                      On the other hand, Jennifer, we also have this:

                                       http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA026/English/RSP1973/GA026_c29.html 

                                      183. In the age of Natural Science, since about the middle of the nineteenth century, the civilised activities of mankind are gradually sliding downward, not only into the lowest regions of Nature, but even beneath Nature. Technical Science and Industry become Sub-Nature.

                                      184. This makes it urgent for man to find in conscious experience a knowledge of the Spirit, wherein he will rise as high above Nature as in his sub-natural technical activities he sinks beneath her. He will thus create within him the inner strength not to go under.

                                      185. A past conception of Nature still bore within it the Spirit with which the source of all human evolution is connected. By degrees, this Spirit vanished altogether from man's theory of Nature. The purely Ahrimanic spirit has entered in its place, and passed from theory of Nature into the technical civilisation of mankind.

                                      ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Anthroposophical Leading Thoughts, From Nature to Sub-Nature [1925], GA 26)

                                      Tarjei

                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <coolvibes@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs"
                                      > write3chairs@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > I don't understand what you mean by "it's happening."
                                      > >
                                      > > What I meant was that technology and science is bearing down on us
                                      > more all the time.
                                      >
                                      > That's very true, but it doesn't mean singularity is happening, although
                                      > it's great movie fantasy material.
                                      >
                                      > > What would Rudolf do? (WWRD)
                                      >
                                      > He would probably have checked out GPS, and now he's our mutual Facebook
                                      > friend [:)] ; he criticized alarmists against technological
                                      > developents; there were those in the 19th century who thought cattle
                                      > would get nervous disorders or something because of trains passing by.
                                      > And he once remarked about the novelty of riding in an automobile,
                                      > although he never drove one.
                                      >
                                      > Tarjei
                                      >

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