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Re: The Shroud

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  • val2160
    There s a documentary set to air tomorrow evening here on the Discovery channel called The Da Vinci Shroud that s also about the Shroud of Turin.-Val ... I
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 5, 2009
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      There's a documentary set to air tomorrow evening here on the Discovery channel called "The Da Vinci Shroud" that's also about the Shroud of Turin.-Val


      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Distasi" <radistasi2@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > This morning I saw the most intriguing documentary on the shroud that I have ever seen before. I had to share it with others. It was on the EWTN channel. The premise of the documentary was that the body of Jesus was "upright" when the image of Jesus was transcribed(?) onto the shroud. Not only was the body upright but the body was suspended in mid-air. You would have to take into consideration the positions of the feet as they are not the position of one lying supine. The "negative" image of light around the eyes is also not of one lying supine nor standing nor is the positioning of the hair.
      >
      > This, speaking for myself, answers questions I had about that which RSteiner spoke of in regard to the ashes of the body of Jesus of Nazareth which had descended into a fissure that opened in the floor of the tomb. It now becomes easier to picture this very event . . . the ashes of the body of Jesus emptying out of the shroud and then pouring into the earth and the earth then closes up again.
      >
      > From http://www.asis.com/users/stag/shroud/newevid.html
      >
      > "THE MAN WAS IN AN UPRIGHT POSITION WHEN THE IMAGE WAS TRANSFERRED TO THE CLOTH"
      >
      > "THE MAN WAS "ILLUMINATED" FROM ABOVE THE HEAD"
      >
      > "Stop for just a second and try to imagine the scene. A dead body suspended in air, brightly illuminated from above the head. Oh, and don't forget the flattened position of the shroud. The shroud is also no longer lying horizontal. "
      >
      > rick distasi
      >
    • elfuncle
      Relics were hot for a long time. A hip bone from a disciple, a piece of wood from Christ s cross and so on. It was part and parcel of a gross exteriorization
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 5, 2009
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        Relics were hot for a long time. A hip bone from a disciple, a piece of wood from Christ's cross and so on. It was part and parcel of a gross exteriorization of the Gospel, the onslaught of materialism, and it was a vey profitable business for a long time too.

        I'm not one of those who would insist that Rudolf Steiner was always right, but when it comes to the Mystery of Golgotha, it's hard to find his match, because this was the one central topic that he dedicated his life mission to. And Rudolf Steiner said repeatedly that there is no historical, documentary, or physical evidence that Jesus Christ ever lived at all. The life and deed of Christ can only be grasped spiritually.

        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/LovWld_index.html
         

        The Mystery of Golgotha is a Deed of the Gods, a concern of the Gods at which men are the onlookers. The door of heaven opens and a Deed of the Gods shines through. This is the one and only Deed on earth that is entirely supersensible. No wonder, therefore, that those who do not believe in the supersensible have no belief in the Deed of Christ. The Deed of Christ is a Deed of the Gods, a Deed which they themselves enact. Herein lies the glory and the unique significance of the Mystery of Golgotha and men are invited to be its witnesses. Historical evidence is not to be found.

        ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Love and Its Meaning in the World, Zurich, 17th December, 1912, GA 143)


        With a total lack of evidence, each human being is completely free with regard to this highest of all Mysteries. Everyone is free to reject it.

        The four evangelists  based their accounts on clairvoyant perceptions after the events had taken place. The word "eyewitness" means seer in the Bible, and the one to use this word, "eyewitnesses," was Luke (Luke 1:2), who was not physically present at all but a student of Paul.

        If the Mystery of Golgotha had not truly been totally void of all material evidence, humanity would have had Christianity forced upon them and would also be dragged into the ditch of earth-bound materialism through the very Gospel that took place in order to liberate people from such ditches. There would have been no spiritual freedom.

        There are many TV documentaries that target the Christ these days with all kinds of alluring research: Jesus was an ordinary guy, he had a secret family life with Mary Madgalene and so on, but the disciples were superstitious so they thought he was divine and even that he rose from the dead, som they gave birth to a myth that gullible posterity has been hanging on to for a couple of millennia already, but science is on the verge of busting this myth wide open.

        They have some tasty morsels for the religious gee-whizzers too, like moving stone statues and flying corpses, whatever goes bump in the night in defiance of natural laws, inexplicable exceptions to physics that are called miracles and have absolutely nothing in common with any science, spiritual or material. They are illusions and hallicunations at best, because there are no miraculous exceptions to natural law.

        Consider, for example, Rudolf Steiner's description of the conversation between Nicodemus and Christ (John 3:1-21):

        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090703p01.html
         

        `There was a man of the Pharisees names Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; the same came to Jesus by night and said to Him. ...'

        Why do we find the words `by night'? It is of course the most trivial explanation imaginable to say that the Jew, being afraid to come to Jesus in the light of day, crept through the window at night. Anyone can give an explanation of that kind. `By night' means here nothing less than that this meeting between Christ and Nicodemus took place in the astral world, in the spiritual world, and not in the world of ordinary day consciousness. That is to say, Christ could communicate with Nicodemus outside the physical body — `by night' when the physical body is not there and the astral body is outside the physical and etheric bodies.


         (-- Rudolf Steiner: The Gospel of St. John, Lecture 10, Cassel July 3, 1909, GA 112)

        This same Nicodemus was also involved in the burial of Christ (John 19:39), and it seems from the text that he may have provided the shroud also. But the notion that this shroud has been preserved is materialistic superstition, and the suspension in the air idea sounds like a sentimental Catholic motion picture. The flesh that had been ensouled by the Christ fell into a ravine as far as I remember, perhaps caused by an aftershock following the global quake that took place when the Earth absorbed the Christ Spirit. And the shroud probably went down with the body, gone gone gone finito.

        So I'm with the skeptics on this one, 100%. Microchemist Dr. Walter McCrone theorizes that "a male model was daubed with paint and wrapped in the sheet to create the shadowy figure of Christ," and that sounds most plausible to me. It's a hoax, but that doesn't stop the makers of TV documentaries from mesmerizing their audiences, just like youtube shows have replaced real arguments in many internet discussions. But they seem to have aired this one almost a week too late; April 1 would have ben ideal :)

        Tarjei


        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Distasi" <radistasi2@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > This morning I saw the most intriguing documentary on the shroud that I have ever seen before. I had to share it with others. It was on the EWTN channel. The premise of the documentary was that the body of Jesus was "upright" when the image of Jesus was transcribed(?) onto the shroud. Not only was the body upright but the body was suspended in mid-air. You would have to take into consideration the positions of the feet as they are not the position of one lying supine. The "negative" image of light around the eyes is also not of one lying supine nor standing nor is the positioning of the hair.
        >
        > This, speaking for myself, answers questions I had about that which RSteiner spoke of in regard to the ashes of the body of Jesus of Nazareth which had descended into a fissure that opened in the floor of the tomb. It now becomes easier to picture this very event . . . the ashes of the body of Jesus emptying out of the shroud and then pouring into the earth and the earth then closes up again.
        >
        > From http://www.asis.com/users/stag/shroud/newevid.html
        >
        > "THE MAN WAS IN AN UPRIGHT POSITION WHEN THE IMAGE WAS TRANSFERRED TO THE CLOTH"
        >
        > "THE MAN WAS "ILLUMINATED" FROM ABOVE THE HEAD"
        >
        > "Stop for just a second and try to imagine the scene. A dead body suspended in air, brightly illuminated from above the head. Oh, and don't forget the flattened position of the shroud. The shroud is also no longer lying horizontal. "
        >
        > rick distasi
        >

      • val2160
        Dear Rick, I had the opportunity to hear Barry Schwortz speak about the Shroud, he was the photographer on the scientific team that went to examine the Shroud
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 26, 2009
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          Dear Rick,

          I had the opportunity to hear Barry Schwortz speak about the Shroud, he
          was the photographer on the scientific team that went to examine the
          Shroud in 1978. This is his web-site:

          http://www.shroud.com/

          He is convinced that the Shroud is the burial cloth of Jesus of
          Nazareth. It took seventeen years to become convinced but the final
          straw for him was the fact that the human blood (not paint) found on the
          cloth is still red, even today, and not brown or black.

          Best,

          Val

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
          <coolvibes@...> wrote:
          >
          > Relics were hot for a long time. A hip bone from a disciple, a piece
          of
          > wood from Christ's cross and so on. It was part and parcel of a gross
          > exteriorization of the Gospel, the onslaught of materialism, and it
          was
          > a vey profitable business for a long time too.
          >
          > I'm not one of those who would insist that Rudolf Steiner was always
          > right, but when it comes to the Mystery of Golgotha, it's hard to find
          > his match, because this was the one central topic that he dedicated
          his
          > life mission to. And Rudolf Steiner said repeatedly that there is no
          > historical, documentary, or physical evidence that Jesus Christ ever
          > lived at all. The life and deed of Christ can only be grasped
          > spiritually.
          >
          > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/LovWld_index.html
          > <%20http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/LovWld_index.html%20>
          >
          > The Mystery of Golgotha is a Deed of the Gods, a concern of the Gods
          at
          > which men are the onlookers. The door of heaven opens and a Deed of
          the
          > Gods shines through. This is the one and only Deed on earth that is
          > entirely supersensible. No wonder, therefore, that those who do not
          > believe in the supersensible have no belief in the Deed of Christ. The
          > Deed of Christ is a Deed of the Gods, a Deed which they themselves
          > enact. Herein lies the glory and the unique significance of the
          Mystery
          > of Golgotha and men are invited to be its witnesses. Historical
          evidence
          > is not to be found.
          >
          > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Love and Its Meaning in the World, Zurich, 17th
          > December, 1912, GA 143)
          >
          > With a total lack of evidence, each human being is completely free
          with
          > regard to this highest of all Mysteries. Everyone is free to reject
          it.
          >
          > The four evangelists based their accounts on clairvoyant perceptions
          > after the events had taken place. The word "eyewitness" means seer in
          > the Bible, and the one to use this word, "eyewitnesses," was Luke
          (Luke
          > 1:2), who was not physically present at all but a student of Paul.
          >
          > If the Mystery of Golgotha had not truly been totally void of all
          > material evidence, humanity would have had Christianity forced upon
          them
          > and would also be dragged into the ditch of earth-bound materialism
          > through the very Gospel that took place in order to liberate people
          from
          > such ditches. There would have been no spiritual freedom.
          >
          > There are many TV documentaries that target the Christ these days with
          > all kinds of alluring research: Jesus was an ordinary guy, he had a
          > secret family life with Mary Madgalene and so on, but the disciples
          were
          > superstitious so they thought he was divine and even that he rose from
          > the dead, som they gave birth to a myth that gullible posterity has
          been
          > hanging on to for a couple of millennia already, but science is on the
          > verge of busting this myth wide open.
          >
          > They have some tasty morsels for the religious gee-whizzers too, like
          > moving stone statues and flying corpses, whatever goes bump in the
          night
          > in defiance of natural laws, inexplicable exceptions to physics that
          are
          > called miracles and have absolutely nothing in common with any
          science,
          > spiritual or material. They are illusions and hallicunations at best,
          > because there are no miraculous exceptions to natural law.
          >
          > Consider, for example, Rudolf Steiner's description of the
          conversation
          > between Nicodemus and Christ (John 3:1-21):
          >
          > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090703p01.html
          > <%20http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090703p01.html>
          >
          > `There was a man of the Pharisees names Nicodemus, a ruler of the
          > Jews; the same came to Jesus by night and said to Him. ...'
          >
          > Why do we find the words `by night'? It is of course the most
          > trivial explanation imaginable to say that the Jew, being afraid to
          come
          > to Jesus in the light of day, crept through the window at night.
          Anyone
          > can give an explanation of that kind. `By night' means here
          > nothing less than that this meeting between Christ and Nicodemus took
          > place in the astral world, in the spiritual world, and not in the
          world
          > of ordinary day consciousness. That is to say, Christ could
          communicate
          > with Nicodemus outside the physical body — `by night' when
          > the physical body is not there and the astral body is outside the
          > physical and etheric bodies.
          >
          > (-- Rudolf Steiner: The Gospel of St. John, Lecture 10, Cassel July
          3,
          > 1909, GA 112)
          >
          > This same Nicodemus was also involved in the burial of Christ (John
          > 19:39), and it seems from the text that he may have provided the
          shroud
          > also. But the notion that this shroud has been preserved is
          > materialistic superstition, and the suspension in the air idea sounds
          > like a sentimental Catholic motion picture. The flesh that had been
          > ensouled by the Christ fell into a ravine as far as I remember,
          perhaps
          > caused by an aftershock following the global quake that took place
          when
          > the Earth absorbed the Christ Spirit. And the shroud probably went
          down
          > with the body, gone gone gone finito.
          >
          > So I'm with the skeptics on this one, 100%. Microchemist Dr. Walter
          > McCrone theorizes that "a male model was daubed with paint and wrapped
          > in the sheet to create the shadowy figure of Christ," and that sounds
          > most plausible to me. It's a hoax, but that doesn't stop the makers of
          > TV documentaries from mesmerizing their audiences, just like youtube
          > shows have replaced real arguments in many internet discussions. But
          > they seem to have aired this one almost a week too late; April 1 would
          > have ben ideal [:)]
          >
          > Tarjei
          >
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Distasi"
          > radistasi2@ wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > This morning I saw the most intriguing documentary on the shroud
          that
          > I have ever seen before. I had to share it with others. It was on the
          > EWTN channel. The premise of the documentary was that the body of
          Jesus
          > was "upright" when the image of Jesus was transcribed(?) onto the
          > shroud. Not only was the body upright but the body was suspended in
          > mid-air. You would have to take into consideration the positions of
          the
          > feet as they are not the position of one lying supine. The "negative"
          > image of light around the eyes is also not of one lying supine nor
          > standing nor is the positioning of the hair.
          > >
          > > This, speaking for myself, answers questions I had about that which
          > RSteiner spoke of in regard to the ashes of the body of Jesus of
          > Nazareth which had descended into a fissure that opened in the floor
          of
          > the tomb. It now becomes easier to picture this very event . . . the
          > ashes of the body of Jesus emptying out of the shroud and then pouring
          > into the earth and the earth then closes up again.
          > >
          > > From http://www.asis.com/users/stag/shroud/newevid.html
          > >
          > > "THE MAN WAS IN AN UPRIGHT POSITION WHEN THE IMAGE WAS TRANSFERRED
          TO
          > THE CLOTH"
          > >
          > > "THE MAN WAS "ILLUMINATED" FROM ABOVE THE HEAD"
          > >
          > > "Stop for just a second and try to imagine the scene. A dead body
          > suspended in air, brightly illuminated from above the head. Oh, and
          > don't forget the flattened position of the shroud. The shroud is also
          no
          > longer lying horizontal. "
          > >
          > > rick distasi
          > >
          >
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