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33rd parallel

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  • Rick Distasi
    The following post is a reprint of an email I recently sent to Robert Powell after reading some of his positions regarding the eventual incarnation of Ahriman.
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 22, 2009
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      The following post is a reprint of an email I recently sent to Robert Powell after reading some of his positions regarding the eventual incarnation of Ahriman. It attempts to draw comparisons of the Baptism/Incarnation of Christ in the Jordan to what could be a similar event by Ahriman.

      ******************************************************

      Some time ago I belonged to an Anthroposophical e-group. A thread was started which involved the discussion of the future advent of Ahriman. Two individuals who claimed they have some degree of clairvoyance both said they had perceived that the individual who was either Ahriman himself or the one who would embody Ahriman later in life was born in the year 2000. In other words, one individual in the e-group who volunteered this information from his personal spiritual research was later corroborated by the other in the group.

      I joined in the discussion and said that I held the belief that Ahriman would incarnate in the 2012 though I didn't claim to have any extended spiritual vision.

      I couldn't argue with them and I could see the possibility that they may be right. Therefore, I left it open. The 100 year completion cycle of spiritual machinations certainly comes into play in these scenarios. I could see how the time pattern fits with the overall pattern of the assassination of Casper Hauser in 1833, the rise of the Beast in 1933 as Steiner forewarned in his lecture cycle in Sept. 1924 and now the possibility of the completion of the triad in 2033 culminating in the actual physical appearance of Ahriman. It sounded plausible.

      The e-group moderator also offered an opinion as well. She offered the possibility that Ahriman would incarnate in the northern Rockies region of the world due to Ahriman's predilection to coldness and his affinity with the material will forces of the Rockies. Here again I could see the plausibility of her suggestion.

      However, over time, the more I thought about it the more I began to see another alternative. The reason is due to the place and conditions of Lucifer's incarnation in 2000 B.C. As I understand it, Lucifer's incarnation was in the Far East within the Himalayan mountain regions which extend from the 29th N parallel to the 33rd N parallel. Lucifer located himself in an area which contained some of the world's highest elevations. He was located in a region of extremely cold conditions. He was located in the Far East.

      A brief sidebar: Babylon (now Baghdad) was located on the 33rd N parallel. Jerusalem is on the 32 N parallel.

      As you pointed out in regard to Ahriman's incarnation RSteiner offered a name in context as something as banal as John William Smith; not to be taken literally of course. It is an American styled name (or British) which gives us a lead into where his incarnation would take place. If one accepts the possibility that Ahriman would take on an American incarnation I then began to think of where would it take place. Or better still, where would the illicit avatar-lke incarnation of Ahriman take place; the antithetical Jordan baptism. It would be completely OPPOSITE to that of Lucifer's incarnation. It would be in the Far West, it would be in a hot dry region of the Far West, it would be at a very low altitude; even below sea level. In addition, it would likely be along the 33rd N parallel (there seems to be something about that parallel.) At first I thought that the region most likely to fill all of those conditions would be Death Valley California. Death Valley is America's lowest point below sea level. It, however, lies on the 37th N parallel. With further research I located a region nearby that does lie on the 33rd N parallel. It is Salton Trough, California. Its lowest point is 278 feet below sea level. Death Valley's lowest point is 282 feet below sea level. Similar to Death Valley, Salton Trough California is a region that is of extreme hot temperatures. What also makes Salton Trough a more likely candidate over Death Valley is the abundant seismic activity in the Salton Trough region; three fault lines run through it which includes the San Andreas Fault. Within the region is the Cerro Prieto Volcano. RSteiner had often mentioned the connection between seismic activity, volcanism and ahrimanic forces within the earth. Also in the same trough region is the Salton Sea. It is actually a lake. It is the largest lake in California. The Dead Sea in Hebrew is Yam ha-Melah meaning "salt sea". If I were to pick an exact location for the event of Ahriman's incarnation it may be in the area at the mouth of the Colorado River in the salt water marsh named: the Cienega de Santa Clara. In comparison, the Jordan River Valley is not unlike all that I have described here in regard to the Salton Trough region. The Great African Rift Valley fault line runs through the Jordan River valley. The Jordan River runs from the Sea of Galilee to the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea is the lowest point on earth. Its surface is approximately 1300 feet below sea level. The Dead Sea region is also a dormant volcano region. Here again, one can see many similarities to that of the Baptism of Christ Jesus.

      http://fire.biol.wwu.edu/trent/alles/GeologySaltonTrough.pdf


      rick distasi
    • holderlin66
      33rd parallel as a parallel event notice to Michael School students. Rick Distasi wrote: I joined in the discussion and said that I held the belief that
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 24, 2009
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        33rd parallel as a parallel event notice to Michael School students.

        Rick Distasi wrote:
        "I joined in the discussion and said that I held the belief that Ahriman would
        incarnate in the 2012 though I didn't claim to have any extended spiritual
        vision.

        I couldn't argue with them and I could see the possibility that they may be
        right. Therefore, I left it open. The 100 year completion cycle of spiritual
        machinations certainly comes into play in these scenarios. I could see how the
        time pattern fits with the overall pattern of the assassination of Casper Hauser
        in 1833, the rise of the Beast in 1933 as Steiner forewarned in his lecture
        cycle in Sept. 1924 and now the possibility of the completion of the triad in
        2033 culminating in the actual physical appearance of Ahriman. It sounded
        plausible.

        The e-group moderator also offered an opinion as well. She offered the
        possibility that Ahriman would incarnate in the northern Rockies region of the
        world due to Ahriman's predilection to coldness and his affinity with the
        material will forces of the Rockies. Here again I could see the plausibility of
        her suggestion.

        However, over time, the more I thought about it the more I began to see another
        alternative. The reason is due to the place and conditions of Lucifer's
        incarnation in 2000 B.C. As I understand it, Lucifer's incarnation was in the
        Far East within the Himalayan mountain regions which extend from the 29th N
        parallel to the 33rd N parallel. Lucifer located himself in an area which
        contained some of the world's highest elevations. He was located in a region of
        extremely cold conditions. He was located in the Far East.

        A brief sidebar: Babylon (now Baghdad) was located on the 33rd N parallel.
        Jerusalem is on the 32 N parallel."

        Bradford adds to Rick;

        Looking back to what was happening in the world when Steiner brought forth the first call of the Michael School we find Weimar and Goethe and Steiner and Nietzsche and we also find the cultural atmosphere out of which Rudolf Steiner opened his Michael School inpouring of spiritual substance.  And for clear spiritual rhythms we find ourselves in a global and world situation that resembles, repeats if you will a certain preparation for the arrival of the Ahrimanic Messiah.  The numbers 1833 - 1933 - 2012 -2033 are indicators and Rick Distasi Robert Powell and my friend Brian Lynch and hundreds of others turn our attention to the coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah.

        But equally and with due respect, in reviewing the history of such an Ahrimanic Messiah event, we could also see the comparative relationship between the upsurge of a Michael event, a resurge of the incarnation of the individual who was Rudolf Steiner and also all those who were in the former Michael School, equally surging forth to intersect the events just as the preliminary events of Weimar, Goethe and Steiner, that brought Steiner through exact events that now seem to rise up in the globe as mirror and repeat themselves.  So we could on one hand equally anticipate the moves and forces congealing for an Ahrimanic Messiah event and we could also hold in our consciousness  a real grasp of the 33rd parallel as a parallel event  having to do with Rudolf Steiner as well.

        In 1933, Adolf was just a rehearal, a fill in while the neighboring Rise of the Etheric Christ was happening on one side, we can see how forcefully and maliciously the opposing powers presented the world with both King Kong and Adolf Hitler as the anti-images to focus upon instead of the Michael School and the Rise of the Etheric Christ.But a Weimar and a German crisis were micro models aimed against the real spear thrust of Michael that pointed directly through Spiritual Science to the Risen Etheric Christ. 

        But now a global Ahrimanic Messiah is being prepared, the stage is being prepared. The current Sorathian Surge and preparation for the coming global Ahrimanic Messiah is now using the same structural models of Weimar and Nazi Germany that resisted and forced humanity to resist and divert their attention from the forming of the Michael School on Earth right in their midst. Michael Schoolers in general can be caught once again with their pants down or they can also take seriously that Ahriman will seek an incarnation somewhere in the West in balance of Lucifer in the East, Christ in the middle and Ahriman in the west.  So Michael School students, along with many topics of interest from cloning, biology, true star studies, reincarnation, also could be sensitive to how to prepare for something that surely is inevitable.

        So what follows below is again, merely an Intellectual Soul Time Field and ZeitGeist comparative study just to jar the cobwebs out of our brains and see that what happens and why it is happening has everything to do with just how important the Michael School was and is and how important a moment is that we prepare for the Ahrimanic Messiah and how important it is that we keep our eyes on the real ZeitGeist clarion call of Michael and the Etheric Christ.

        For while Weimar appeared to be the epicenter and the false flag event of the burning of Reichstag on Steiner's birthday, it was really  a direct slap, assault, attack on Michael as it was the start of events that brought us Adolf and the SS and the models of those Sorathian Schools that would oppose directly everything that Spiritual Science and the Michael Schools stand for.  The False Flag, inside job of 9/11 was the focal point of the Sorathian Surge of Dick Cheney a literal Caiaphas comparative study in human behavior. 

        That our current Sorathian Surge was decoded by Steiner into a clear low-jack anti-rhythm pattern that now travels through time as a time ripple and stands as an anti-time ripple event, even against the certainty of the Lord of Karma and the Etheric Christ.  666 - 1332 is directly linked to the 1998 forming of the Project for a New American (read Ahrimanic) century.  If we read it properly, if we read it and the intent and warning also formulated in the Matrix film series that also came out in 1998/9, we understand the announcemnt of the PNAC as the announcement of the coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah, by merely announcing and altering the terms so that we can clearly say from an esoteric and real point of view, that the PNAC were the blueprints and sketches for the Project for a New Ahrimanic Century.  The arrival and coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah is less than fifty years off maybe less, maybe more, or maybe the opposing forces were just keeping their claws in the pot and stirring up all the failed ideals so that humanity would continue to remain distracted.

        However it comes and it will come one way or the other, Rick Distasi brought up some good points, points to be gathered and points to be shared as we track a secret pattern that, like Lucifer or Christ was foreshadowed by semi-prophets of old.  But currently the Michael School has had certain data to play with, certain time patterns to understand and a certainty that the Initiate who dropped these into our laps, was accurate and his insights have been tested so that we should at least be able to keep our eye on the ball for the coming of The Ahrimanic Messiah, but with a concrete sense of exactly what this Ahrimanic Messiah means for humanity.

        http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9446.html

        "The U.S. faces a similar "Weimar Moment." The devastating collapse of the economy after eight years of Republican rule has left the leadership, policies, and ideology of the right utterly discredited. But, as was the case with Germany in 1919, Republicans do not intend to allow the new government to succeed. They will do everything they can to undermine it. If they are successful, the U.S. may yet go the way of Weimar Germany.

        World War I left Germany utterly devastated. The landed aristocrats, industrial magnates, wealthy financiers, weapons makers, and the officer corps of the military that formed the locus of right wing power were completely discredited. Their failure in provoking and prosecuting the War was catastrophic, undeniable, and complete.

        The economy was destroyed. Prices were at 800% of pre-war levels and rising quickly. Agriculture, pillaged for the War, lay in ruins. Social insurance payments for the War's injured, to widows and orphans, and newly unemployed soldiers were astronomical. And all this was before the cost of rebuilding was even begun.

        At the same time, Germany faced massive reparations payments to the Allied victors, France and England. But Germany's foreign properties had been confiscated and its colonies turned over to the victors. The combination of these conditions, both domestic and international, made it extraordinarily difficult for the German economy to recover.

        As a result of the failure of the right, the German people elected a moderately leftist government to lead the nation's rebuilding. It was named the Weimar Republic for the city in which the new post-imperial constitution was written. The new government was led by Friedrich Ebert, head of the German Socialist Party.

        But the country's new parliamentary system had allowed dozens of parties to run, making it impossible for any one party to win an outright majority. Ebert's party had achieved the highest portion of votes, 38%, in the first post-War elections, held in January 1919. Ebert would have to govern by coalition.

        It was at this time that the right wing made its crucial decision. Despite its shocking, naked failure over the prior decade, despite the horrific devastation it had wrought on the German people, despite the discrediting of everything they had purported to stand for, they would fight Ebert, his new government, and its plans for recovery. They would do everything they could to make sure that the new government failed.

        Their strategy was two-fold: first, stoke the resentment of the population about the calamitous state of its living conditions-no matter that those conditions had been created by the very right-wing oligarchs who now pretended to befriend the little guy. Rage is rage. It is glandular and unseeing. Once catalyzed it is easy to turn on any subject.

        And stoking resentment was easy to do. Just before the War ended, the military concocted its most sensational lie: the German army hadn't actually been defeated. It had been "stabbed in the back" by communists, traitors, and Jews. It was an easy lie to sell. It entwined an attack on an alien political ideology - liberalism- with the latent, pervasive myth of German racial superiority.

        The second strategy of the right was to prevent the new government from succeeding. To begin with, success of the left would conspicuously advertise the failure of the right. Moreover, success by the left would legitimize republican government, so hated by the oligarchs of the right. Much better for the people to be ruled by the self-aggrandizing right-wing autocracy that had governed Germany for centuries.

        So the rightists set out to do everything they could to make it impossible for the leftists to govern. They would use parliamentary maneuver, shifting coalitions, domination of the new mass media, legislative obstruction, staged public relations spectacles, relentless pressure by narrow but powerful interests, judicial intimidation and, eventually, outright murder of their political opponents.

        Contrition for their abject failure, humility for their destructive hubris, compassion for their crippled country-those had nothing to do with it. All they possessed was a blinding, visceral hatred of the left and a masturbatory lust for the return to power.

        Eventually, they succeeded. Every setback in recovery - and there would inevitably be many - was met with hysterical demonizing of the left wing government. The lie was repeated relentlessly that the government was run by communists, traitors, and Jews-the same furtive cabal that had purportedly stabbed the country in the back at the end of the War. They steadily chipped away at the efficacy and, thereby, the legitimacy of successive republican governments.

        By the time of the Great Depression, Adolph Hitler's ironically named National Socialist Party had become the biggest vote getter in the nation. The Nazis had once been derided as the lunatic fringe of the far right. But the "respectable" right-wing power brokers who had started and lost the Great War anointed Hitler Chancellor in January, 1933.

        He immediately suspended the constitution, abolishing most civil liberties. He outlawed opposition parties, began a massive military build-up and a relentless propaganda campaign, and set Germany and the world onto the path of the greatest destruction it would ever know.

        America now faces its own "Weimar moment."

        The failure of right wing policy and leadership over the past eight years, especially in matters economic, is comparable to Germany's right-wing failure in World War I. It is catastrophic, undeniable, and complete.

        Consider:

        According to the World Economic Forum, forty percent of the entire world's wealth has been destroyed in the recent financial collapse. In the U.S. alone, between housing and the stock market, more than $18 trillion in wealth has already been destroyed.

        The private mega-banks that anchor the financial systems of the western world are bankrupt. This makes it all but impossible to jump-start the western world's economies which are heavily dependent on bank-system credit to operate.

        More than 10,000 homes go into foreclosure every day. More than 20,000 people lose their job every day. And the collapse is accelerating, developing its own self-reinforcing dynamic. Job losses breed foreclosures, reducing demand, leading to more job losses and further degradation of the financial system. None of the stopgaps designed to stanch the bleeding have yet worked. There is no bottom in sight.

        Meanwhile, debt has risen to astronomical levels. Reagan and Bush I quadrupled the national debt in only twelve years. Bush II doubled it again in only eight. It is now ten times higher than it was in 1980 when Reagan was elected. Total public and private debt exceeds 300% of GDP, half again higher than it was in 1929.

        The government's unfunded liabilities, promises it has made to the American people but for which no payment source can be identified, now exceed $60 trillion, a literally inconceivable sum that can never, will never, be paid. Federal Reserve economist Lawrence Kotlikoff has suggested that the U.S. government is "actuarially bankrupt."

        The full measure of the nation's plight is revealed in Hillary Clinton's first trip as Secretary of State. It was to China, to beg them to fund Obama's new fiscal deficits. Without loans from China, the U.S. economy cannot be revived. The significance of this cannot be overstated: the U.S. no longer exercises sovereignty over its own economic affairs. That sovereignty now resides in the hands of China, the U.S.'s greatest long-term rival.

        Thanks to Republican policies of massive debt and shipping jobs abroad, the U.S. has technically become a colony of China. It exports raw materials and imports finished goods, together with the capital to make up the difference. Should the Chinese decide not to lend the trillions of dollars the U.S. is begging for, the U.S. economy will implode, plummeting onto itself in a World Trade Center-like collapse that will leave dust clouds circling the planet for decades.

        Notwithstanding the destruction inflicted on the economy by Republican policies, the most devastating breakdown is in the intellectual foundation on which right wing economic ideology itself is premised. Free market doctrine, the secular religion of right-wing America, is in utter, irretrievable shambles.

        One of the most lofty tenets on which free markets are premised is their claim for themselves that they are "efficient," that is, that market prices always reflect "fundamental values" of assets. But if that's true, how could the world's largest insurance company, AIG, have lost 99.5% of its market value in only 18 months? How could the world's largest bank, Citibank, have lost 98% of its value over the same period?

        How could the world's largest brokerage company, Merrill Lynch, have gone bankrupt and need to be bought by Bank of America? How could the world's largest car company, General Motors, have lost 95% of its value and stand on the threshold of extinction? How could the world's largest industrial conglomerate, General Electric, have lost 85% of its value in only 18 months?

        If the largest companies in the world, those at the very heart of the capitalist system itself, can lose virtually all of their value in only 18 months, what is the possible meaning of the phrases "efficient markets" and "fundamental value"?

        The other core tenets of free market ideology are equally compromised. Major actors are clearly not rational - a breakdown of theological proportions admitted by no less an avatar of the cult than its pope himself, Alan Greenspan. Free markets clearly cannot, will not, regulate themselves. It is precisely their innate, irrepressible propensity for sociopathic greed and predatory fraud that has brought the whole of the world's economy to the precipice of collapse.

        Free markets clearly do not align risk and reward, allocating capital to its most productive uses, as its promoters advertise. They clearly do not automatically return to equilibrium, but must be bailed out with trillions of dollars of injections from the shrinking coffers of the public to the ever-bulging coffers of a private priesthood of pillage and plunder.

        And in perhaps the greatest indictment of all, one going back to its primeval roots in Adam Smith's eighteenth century opus, The Wealth of Nations, the unrestrained behavior of self-interested individuals clearly, manifestly, does not "coalesce as if by an Invisible Hand to the greatest good for the greatest number."

        These are not peripheral premises that have failed. They are not tangential tenets. Efficient markets. Rational actors. Market equilibrium. Risk and reward. Self interest. These are the essential sacraments on which the entire free market system is founded. They are in tatters. And it isn't that any one of them has been discredited by the glaring, merciless force of events. All of them have been. All of them together. And all of them at the same time.

        Free markets have long been the basis for a legitimate - though rightly debated - economic policy framework. But they have become little more than a robotically-recited cultural catechism, a mindless mantra mumbled to mask the looting of the nation's resources that is the true purpose of Republican economic policy as demonstrated by the staggering upward transfers of wealth that inevitably occur under Republican regimes. A more complete, conspicuous, catastrophic, and irrefutable repudiation of right wing leaders, right wing policies, and right wing ideology could not possibly be contrived.

        So what is the right wing response?

        They have adopted the strategy and tactics of the failed right wing plotters in Weimar Germany. First, stoke the resentment of the population about the increasingly dire state of its living conditions-no matter that those conditions were created by the very right-wing oligarchs who now pretend to befriend the little guy. Rage is rage. It is glandular and unseeing. Once catalyzed it is easy to turn on any subject.

        Second, prevent the new government from succeeding in any meaningful endeavor. The Republicans have set all their efforts to doing everything they can to make sure the Obama administration fails. Rush Limbaugh's infamous, "I hope he fails" pronouncement is only the beginning of the fomenting of hatred from the right. As Limbaugh said, "Let's be honest. Every Republican in America is hoping for Obama's failure."

        The same malignant hope oozes unadulterated from all the other Dogpatch Demagogues that rent themselves out to the Republican party to foment resentment against anything liberal: Joe the "Plumber," Rick Santelli, Glenn Beck, Michael Savage, Ann Coulter, and virtually every other wing-nut operative whose intellectual stock in trade has been vaporized by the collision of right-wing policies with objective reality.

        Equally so for the "respectable" members of the party, the all-but-three Republican members of Congress who refused to sign on to Obama's first stimulus package and continue to grandstand against every effort toward any form of progress. Contrition for their own abject failure, humility for their destructive hubris, compassion for their crippled country-those have nothing to do with it. All they possess is a blinding, visceral hatred of the left and a masturbatory lust for the return to power.

        And what else can they do? Bereft of ideas, bankrupt in ideology, architects of collapse, obstruction is all they have. If Obama is successful, it will not only advertise the full extent of their failure, it will provide a model of liberal governance that would render Republicans irrelevant for decades, much as FDR's success left them out in the political cold for an entire generation. Liberal failure is a matter of life and death for Republicans.

        And it's not at all clear that the liberals won't fail. No one should underestimate the task at hand. Never before - not even during the Great Depression - has the country inherited such a daunting, intractable set of economic problems: a debt burden so crushing; inequality so vast; a loss of financial sovereignty so constricting; an intellectual edifice so bankrupt; a private economy so uncompetitive; or an opposition so callously self interested in its own recovery and so cavalierly disinterested in the nation's.

        The economy has been so damaged, successful rescue requires threading a series of policy needles, each of them so complex in their own right that none could be solved by any administration of the past 50 years. This includes rehabilitating and re-regulating the nation's banking system, restructuring health care, reducing national dependence on oil, reviving manufacturing so as to reduce the trade deficit, rebuilding the nation's crumbling infrastructure, dealing with a soaring national debt, trying to resuscitate a collapsing housing market, and all the while maintaining the safety net under 77 million baby boomers entering retirement with a net worth 60% what it was only 18 months ago.

        Success will require much more than luck, hard work, brilliant policy, or soaring rhetoric. It will require cooperation and contribution from every American. It is those two offerings, cooperation and contribution, that Republicans are intent on withholding, the better to ensure Obama's failure. Simply put, the Republicans hate Democrats more than they love America.

        If they succeed in derailing Obama's efforts, the cost will be incalculable.

        After World War I, one of the consequences of the liberal government's failure was Adolph Hitler. Hitler had a genius for exploiting the resentment of the German people for their condition. More than 80% of the Nazi party's members were unemployed. It was these legions of idle thugs who made up the ranks of Hitler's brownshirt militia, the SA. The right wing oligarchy that had set out from the beginning to destroy the Weimar Republic recognized the potency of resentment and Hitler's genius at exploiting it. It was they who sponsored Hitler's ascension to Chancellor in 1933.

        Resentment and obstruction are all the right wing in America have to peddle. Their policies are utterly discredited. Their ideology - even by its own standards - is a sham. They are so bereft of leaders, their de facto leader is a former drug addicted, thrice-divorced radio talk show host. That is literally the best they can muster. But they have built a national franchise inciting the downwardly mobile to blame the government, not the right, for their problems, exactly as Hitler did in the 1920s.

        The Republican propensity for fascism must not be underestimated. Witness their phony justifications for the war in Iraq, fanning the flames of nationalistic aggression, just as Hitler did with Austria, the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, and Poland in the 1930s. Consider their symbiotic embrace of corporate interests in the oil, weapons, telecommunications, pharmaceutical, finance, and other industries-the same type of corporate interests that sponsored Hitler's ascent to power. Look at their efforts to dismantle civil liberties with the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act. Or their relentless, pervasive propaganda laundered through their corporate-owned right-wing media machine.

        These are the classic hallmarks of fascism. The strategy is to obstruct recovery, facilitate collapse, and then incite the faux-populism of public resentment to re-install a corporatist oligarchy which has failed, but which will not abide a reduction of its privileges or a diminution of its control. It is a fetid, seditious agenda, awaiting only its own latter day mustachioed messiah for its final fulfillment.

        World War I was a once-in-a-millennium upset in the architecture of global power. In four years, it shifted the center of that power from Europe to the United States. But failure now by the U.S. will shift that center once again, from the United States to China, out of the western world where it has resided for the past 500 years. The psychic shock to the billion-odd people living in western civilization, with its liberal democracies, capitalist economies, and Enlightenment ideals, will be incalculable, irretrievable.

        This shift may be inevitable and only a matter of time. It is quite possible that the damage inflicted on the western world's economy by rapacious Republicans is already beyond repair. But it will be tragedy beyond measure if such a shift is consummated by the very wrecking crew that took us down the road to ruin, all the while so unctuously proclaiming "patriotism" as its crowning ideal. They are not patriots and their goal is not the revival of American power. It is the revival of their own power, even at the expense of America's. They represent a very dangerous threat to the nation's future.

        Robert Freeman writes on history, economics and education. He can be reached at robertfreeman10@... .

      • ottmar12
        Hi Bradford, I read your comment with great interest. Both, the esoteric side on the 33 rd parallel and Ahriman s incarnation and the political side are on my
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 24, 2009
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          Hi Bradford,

           

          I read your comment with great interest. Both, the esoteric side on the 33 rd parallel and Ahriman's incarnation and the political side are on my mind for years and decades and I could add something on many points, but I will restrain myself.

           

          Rudolf Steiner took it for granted that his listeners knew the story of the Anti-Christ of Wladimir Solowjow very well. Sure the anthopops on this list know this story as well, but it didn't play a large role in their comments so far. Just translate this 110 year old story to the world situation today and you have a good blueprint for his appearance.   What do people expect today, what are their greatest desires? He will fulfill them. …..

           

          2 anthroposophic occultists talk of 2 ahrimanic centres on initiation, from where their forces, their wisdom flows out into the country, out into the heads of the leading people, one in Florida and one in the southwest, where Nevada, Utah and Arizona meet. However they didn't talk of these places as birthplaces of Ahriman.

           

          Robert Powell gave the reference to the Revelation 13, the beasts from the land and the sea. He connects this with the USA and its 2 supreme power tools, money system and military. (I think a book with these ideas has appeared or will appear soon in English.)

           

           

          It's always interesting to hear or read from foreigners about German history. I do not want to contradict you on any of your points, just add or correct smaller items.  "Friedrich Ebert, head of the German Socialist Party." Friedrich Ebert was the head of the Socialdemocrats, which may seem to be the same to Americans, but the Socialdemocrats are the oldest party in Germany and one of the oldest in Europe, from 1848, and they form the government today in a coalition with the conservatives, the Christian-democrates. Socialist in our ears sounds like the old GDR or Sovietunion.

           

          "Adolph? Hitler's ironically named National Socialist Party" Why ironically, there were many socialist elements in his ideology, a maximum wage of 1000 Marks, the importance of the collective over the individual, public welfare and health for the masses and so on.

           

          I personally wouldn't compare the Weimarer Republik with the situation in the USA today. From a European perspective there isn't such a fundamental difference between the democrats and republicans, although the sympathy is of course more with Obama than with Bush jr. However -Guantanamo (which will one day be the source or root of the great shame for America) is still the same, or on the contrary, what we have heard in Germany is that torture is even more brutal and cruel than before –no change in the economic ideology, the idea is still: a return to the times before the economic crisis, the fundamental questions are not even asked like: what is money really? What is the purpose of industry and services, making money or serve the people? Make money with money (interest)? What about money where there are no goods or services which you could buy with the money (virtual money, worthless money).

           

           

          "Meanwhile, debt has risen to astronomical levels. Reagan and Bush I quadrupled the national debt in only twelve years. ….  

          The government's unfunded liabilities, promises it has made to the American people but for which no payment source can be identified, now exceed $60 trillion, a literally inconceivable sum that can never, will never, be paid."

           I agree 100 %, and it is so simple to understand, but people don't talk about it, don't take it into account and Obama just added 1000bn $ debt to it!

           

          "Thanks to Republican policies of massive debt and shipping jobs abroad, the U.S. has technically become a colony of China."  The word 'colony' is exaggerated, I think and  I'm sure the $ wizards of the Fed and Wall Street will find a way out, either huge inflation or a money cut 1:100 or something like that, but I think the latter will rather be for our children to experience, however we in Germany have had that 2 or (with the GDR currency) 3 times in the 20 th century.    But you know of course what Rudolf Steiner said about the future confrontation or showdown between America and China, that it is inevitable for the 21 st century.

           

          "Free market doctrine, the secular religion of right-wing America, …"

          I agree with this, however without the defining adjective right-wing, it is in the American `genes' so to speak, ever since its founding.

           

          "- a breakdown of theological proportions admitted by no less an avatar of the cult than its pope himself, Alan Greenspan."

           I liked this sentence, this picture. Imo the American state ideology is a kind of secular religion, just like atheism. Both ideologies have their avatars or popes, their festivities and days of remembrance, etc.

           

          I personally am not a friend of conspiracy ideas, but very fluid situations like today will of course call all kinds of people to manipulate the course of events into their direction. We'll see.

          Ottmar


        • Frank Thomas Smith
          ... (snip) Excellent article, Bradford, thanks. Just one comment. Lot s of talk in the article about the free market , which the Republican right supposedly
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 24, 2009
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66" <holderlin66@...> wrote:
            >



            > http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9446.html
            > <http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9446.html>
            >
            > "The U.S. faces a similar "Weimar Moment." The devastating collapse of
            > the economy after eight years of Republican rule has left the
            > leadership, policies, and ideology of the right utterly discredited.
            > But, as was the case with Germany in 1919, Republicans do not intend to
            > allow the new government to succeed. They will do everything they can to
            > undermine it. If they are successful, the U.S. may yet go the way of
            > Weimar Germany.
            (snip)
            Excellent article, Bradford, thanks. Just one comment. Lot's of talk in the article about the "free market", which the Republican right supposedly wants. However, imo, a "free" market never existed, nor can it. Under communism (and Marxist socialism) it is run be the state, under (fanatical) capitalism by private industry. That's why Steiner's idea of economic associations, consisting of producers (capitalists? yeah), distributors *and* consumers is so genial. The associations would run the unfree but associative markets.
            Frank
          • holderlin66
            He was still young, but owing to his great genius, by the age of thirty-three he had already become famous as a great thinker, writer, and public figure.
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 25, 2009
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              "He was still young, but owing to his great genius, by the age of thirty-three he had already become famous as a great thinker, writer, and public figure. Conscious of the great power of spirit in himself, he was always a confirmed spiritualist, and his clear intellect always showed him the truth of what one should believe in: the good, God, and the Messiah." 

              33rd parallel as a parallel event notice to Michael School students

              Ottmar brought;

              "...but I will restrain myself.
              Rudolf Steiner took it for granted that his listeners knew the story of the Anti-Christ of Wladimir Solowjow very well. Sure the anthopops on this list know this story as well, but it didn't play a large role in their comments so far. Just translate this 110 year old story to the world situation today and you have a good blueprint for his appearance.   What do people expect today, what are their greatest desires? He will fulfill them. …..

               Bradford comments;

              Ottmar- Why restrain yourself? That is if you have a piece of the puzzle a way to look at the data that the Michael School was given and integrate it, even attempt to integrate it, why restrain yourself?  For instance!

              Humanity had outgrown that stage of philosophical infancy. On the other hand, it became equally evident that it had also outgrown the infantile capacity for naive, unconscious faith. Such ideas as God creating the universe out of nothing were no longer taught even in elementary schools. A certain high level of ideas concerning such subjects had been evolved, and no dogmatism could risk a descent below it. And though the majority of thinking people had remained faithless, the few believers, of necessity, had become thinking, thus fulfilling the commandment of the Apostle: "Be infants in your hearts, but not in your reason."

              At that time, there was among the few believing spiritualists a remarkable person -- many called him a superman -- who was equally far from both, intellect and childlike heart. He was still young, but owing to his great genius, by the age of thirty-three he had already become famous as a great thinker, writer, and public figure. Conscious of the great power of spirit in himself, he was always a confirmed spiritualist, and his clear intellect always showed him the truth of what one should believe in: the good, God, and the Messiah. 

              In these he believed, but he loved only himself. He believed in God, but in the depths of his soul he involuntarily and unconsciously preferred himself. He believed in Good, but the All Seeing Eye of the Eternal knew that this man would bow down before the power of Evil as soon as it would offer him a bribe -- not by deception of the senses and the lower passions, not even by the superior bait of power, but only by his own immeasurable self-love. 

              This self-love was neither an unconscious instinct nor an insane ambition. Apart from his exceptional genius, beauty, and nobility of character, the reserve, disinterestedness, and active sympathy with those in need which he evinced to such a great extent seemed abundantly to justify the immense self-love of this great spiritualist, ascetic, and philanthropist. Did he deserve blame because, being as he was so generously supplied with the gifts of God, he saw in them the signs of Heaven's special benevolence to him, and thought himself to be second only to God himself? In a word, he considered himself to be what Christ in reality was. But this conception of his higher value showed itself in practice not in the exercise of his moral duty to God and the world but in seizing his privilege and advantage at the expense of others, and of Christ in particular.

              At first, he bore no ill feeling toward Christ. He recognized his messianic importance and value, but he was sincere in seeing in him only his own greatest precursor. The moral achievement of Christ and his uniqueness were beyond an intellect so completely clouded by self-love as his. Thus he reasoned: "Christ came before me. I come second. But what, in order of time, appears later is, in its essence, of greater importance. I come last, at the end of history, and for the very reason that I am most perfect. I am the final savior of the world, and Christ is my precursor. His mission was to precede and prepare for my coming." 

              Thinking thus, the superman of the twenty-first century applied to himself everything that was said in the Gospels about the second coming, explaining the latter not as a return of the same Christ, but as a replacing of the preliminary Christ by the final one -- that is, by himself.

              At this stage, the coming man presented few original characteristics or features. His attitude toward Christ resembled, for instance, that of Mohammed, a truthful man, against whom no charge of harboring evil designs can be brought.

              This man justified his selfish preference of himself before Christ in yet another way. 'Christ,' he said, "who preached and practiced moral good in life, was a reformer of humanity, whereas I am called to be the benefactor of that same humanity, partly reformed and partly incapable of being reformed. I will give everyone what they require. As a moralist, Christ divided humanity by the notion of good and evil. I shall unite it by benefits which are as much needed by good as by evil people. I shall be the true representative of that God who makes his sun to shine upon the good and the evil alike, and who makes the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust. Christ brought the sword; I shall bring peace. Christ threatened the earth with the Day of Judgment. But I shall be the last judge, and my judgment will be not only that of justice but also that of mercy. The justice that will be meted out in my sentences will not be a retributive justice but a distributive one. I shall judge each person according to his deserts, and shall give everybody what he needs."

              In this magnificent spirit he now waited for God to call him in some unmistakable way to take upon himself the work of saving humanity -- for some obvious and striking testimony that he was the elder son, the beloved first-born child of God. He waited and sustained himself by the consciousness of his superhuman virtues and gifts, for, as was said, he was a man of irreproachable morals and exceptional genius.

              Thus this just, proud man awaited the sanction of the Most High in order to begin his saving of humanity; but he saw no signs of it. He had passed the age of thirty. Three more years passed. Suddenly, a thought leaped into his mind and thrilled him to the core. "What," he thought, "what if by some accident it is not I, but the other ... the Galilean. What if he is not my annunciator but the true deliverer, the first and the last? In that case, he must be alive... But where is he, then? What if he suddenly comes to me... here, now? What shall I tell Him? Shall I not be compelled to kneel down before him as the very last silly Christian, as some Russian peasant who mutters without understanding: 'Lord, Jesus Christ, forgive me, a sinful man'? Shall I not be compelled like an old Polish woman to prostrate myself? I, the serene genius, the superman! It cannot be!"

              And here, instead of his former reasoning and cold reverence to God and Christ, a sudden fear was born and grew in his heart, next followed by a burning envy that consumed all his being, and by an ardent hatred that took his very breath away. "It is I, it is I, and not he! He is dead -- is and will ever be! He did not -- no, did not rise! He is rotting in the grave, rotting as the lost..." His mouth foaming, he rushed convulsively out of the house, through the garden, and ran along a rocky path into the silent black night.

              His rage calmed down and gave place to a despair, dry and heavy as the rocks, somber as the night. He stopped in front of a sharp precipice, from the bottom of which he could hear the faint sounds of the stream running over the stones. An unbearable anguish pressed upon his heart. Suddenly a thought flashed across his mind. "Shall I call him? Shall I ask him what to do?" And in the midst of darkness he could see a pale and grief-stained image. "He pities me ... Oh, no, never! He did not rise! He did not! He did not!" And he leapt from the precipice. 

              But something firm like a column of water held him up in the air. He felt a shock as if of electricity, and some unknown force hurled him back. For a moment he became unconscious. When he came to his senses he found himself kneeling down a few paces from the brow of the precipice. A strange figure gleaming with a dim phosphorescent light loomed up before him, and its two eyes pierced his soul with their painful penetrating glitter...

              He saw these two piercing eyes and heard some unfamiliar voice coming from inside or outside him -- he could not tell which -- a dull, muffled voice, yet distinct, metallic, and expressionless as a recording. And the voice said to him: "Oh, my beloved son! Let all my benevolence rest on thee! Why didst not thou seek for me? Why hast thou stooped to worship that other, the bad one, and his father? I am thy god and father. And that crucified beggar -- he is a stranger both to me and to thee. I ....."

            • write3chairs
              ... This guy seems so familiar. Is this who you re talking about? http://media.comicmix.com/media/2008/09/29/dr-manhattan-3.jpg
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 25, 2009
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                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66" wrote:

                > His rage calmed down and gave place to a despair,
                > dry and heavy as the rocks, somber as the night.
                > He stopped in front of a sharp precipice, from the
                > bottom of which he could hear the faint sounds of
                > the stream running over the stones. An unbearable
                > anguish pressed upon his heart.
                > Suddenly a thought flashed across his mind.
                > "Shall I call him? Shall I ask him what to do?"
                > And in the midst of darkness he could see a pale
                > and grief-stained image. "He pities me ... Oh, no,
                > never! He did not rise! He did not! He did not!"
                > And he leapt from the precipice.
                >
                > But something firm like a column of water held
                > him up in the air. He felt a shock as if of
                > electricity, and some unknown force hurled him
                > back. For a moment he became unconscious.
                > When he came to his senses he found himself
                > kneeling down a few paces from the brow of the precipice.
                > A strange figure gleaming with a dim phosphorescent light loomed up
                > before him, and its two eyes pierced his soul with their painful
                > penetrating glitter...
                >
                > He saw these two piercing eyes and heard some
                > unfamiliar voice coming from inside or outside him --
                > he could not tell which -- a dull, muffled voice,
                > yet distinct, metallic, and expressionless as a
                > recording. And the voice said to him: "Oh, my beloved son!
                > Let all my benevolence rest on thee! Why didst not thou
                > seek for me? Why hast thou stooped to worship that other,
                > the bad one, and his father? I am thy god and father.
                > And that crucified beggar -- he is a stranger both
                > to me and to thee. I ....."

                This guy seems so familiar. Is this who you're talking about?

                http://media.comicmix.com/media/2008/09/29/dr-manhattan-3.jpg
              • Frank Thomas Smith
                ... F: Actually it was the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party). But the keywords are National . Dictators like national socialism - Peron used
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 26, 2009
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                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > "Adolph? Hitler's ironically named National Socialist Party" Why
                  > ironically, there were many socialist elements in his ideology, a
                  > maximum wage of 1000 Marks, the importance of the collective over the
                  > individual, public welfare and health for the masses and so on.

                  F: Actually it was the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party).
                  But the keywords are "National". Dictators like "national socialism" -
                  Peron used it in Argentina, fe. It means fascism. And "workers". The
                  workers are the majority in every country (even if they don't have
                  work). So the dictators must always appeal to them.


                  O: I personally wouldn't compare the Weimarer Republik with the
                  > situation in the USA today. From a European perspective there isn't
                  > such a fundamental difference between the democrats and republicans,
                  > although the sympathy is of course more with Obama than with Bush jr.

                  F: If that's the European perspective, then the Europeans should start
                  brushing up on their perspectives. The difference between Obama and Bush
                  is as between black and white (pub intended). The word "socialist" is,
                  however, still anathema.

                  O: However -Guantanamo (which will one day be the source or root of the
                  > great shame for America)

                  F: Already is.

                  O: is still the same, or on the contrary, what we
                  > have heard in Germany is that torture is even more brutal and cruel
                  than
                  > before

                  F: Where do you hear this stuff, Ottmar - Das Goetheanum? Gitmo is in
                  the process of downsizing and out-phasing. And torture is no longer
                  permitted.

                  O: –no change in the economic ideology, the idea is still: a
                  > return to the times before the economic crisis, the fundamental
                  > questions are not even asked like: what is money really? What is the
                  > purpose of industry and services, making money or serve the people?
                  Make
                  > money with money (interest)? What about money where there are no goods
                  > or services which you could buy with the money (virtual money,
                  worthless
                  > money).

                  F: You may be right, but at least an attempt is being made to to put
                  some handcuffs on the perps. Btw., are these fundamental questions beng
                  asked in Europe?
                • Frank Thomas Smith
                  ... You brought it up, Bradford (Matrix) - so now you re obliged to help me out. My new computer suddenly stopped reading CDs - and no one knows why. Microsoft
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 26, 2009
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                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66" <holderlin66@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > That our current Sorathian Surge was decoded by Steiner into a clear
                    > low-jack anti-rhythm pattern that now travels through time as a time
                    > ripple and stands as an anti-time ripple event, even against the
                    > certainty of the Lord of Karma and the Etheric Christ. 666 - 1332 is
                    > directly linked to the 1998 forming of the Project for a New American
                    > (read Ahrimanic) century. If we read it properly, if we read it and the
                    > intent and warning also formulated in the Matrix film series that also
                    > came out in 1998/9, we understand the announcemnt of the PNAC as the
                    > announcement of the coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah, by merely
                    > announcing and altering the terms so that we can clearly say from an
                    > esoteric and real point of view, that the PNAC were the blueprints and
                    > sketches for the Project for a New Ahrimanic Century. The arrival and
                    > coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah is less than fifty years off maybe less,
                    > maybe more, or maybe the opposing forces were just keeping their claws
                    > in the pot and stirring up all the failed ideals so that humanity would
                    > continue to remain distracted.

                    You brought it up, Bradford (Matrix) - so now you're obliged to help me out. My new computer suddenly stopped reading CDs - and no one knows why. Microsoft (it's Vista brrr) USA says I must contact Microsoft Argentina, MS Argentina says I must contact the tech office of my seller. That apologetic office tells me they haven't got a clue, that it's impossible. Now, Bradford, which secret society or God is trying to contact me (like Neo in Matrix) through my computer - although in this case through silence?
                    Frank
                  • Kim
                    Have you tried to search the net with the name of the CD drive name and Vista and ERROR or DONT READ or something like that? Have you or Microsoft installed a
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 26, 2009
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                      Have you tried to search the net with the name of the CD drive name and
                      Vista and ERROR or DONT READ or something like that?

                      Have you or Microsoft installed a new driver? Try eventually and install
                      a driver from the computer producer.

                      Mvh. Kim

                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                      <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66"
                      holderlin66@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > That our current Sorathian Surge was decoded by Steiner into a clear
                      > > low-jack anti-rhythm pattern that now travels through time as a time
                      > > ripple and stands as an anti-time ripple event, even against the
                      > > certainty of the Lord of Karma and the Etheric Christ. 666 - 1332
                      is
                      > > directly linked to the 1998 forming of the Project for a New
                      American
                      > > (read Ahrimanic) century. If we read it properly, if we read it and
                      the
                      > > intent and warning also formulated in the Matrix film series that
                      also
                      > > came out in 1998/9, we understand the announcemnt of the PNAC as the
                      > > announcement of the coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah, by merely
                      > > announcing and altering the terms so that we can clearly say from an
                      > > esoteric and real point of view, that the PNAC were the blueprints
                      and
                      > > sketches for the Project for a New Ahrimanic Century. The arrival
                      and
                      > > coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah is less than fifty years off maybe
                      less,
                      > > maybe more, or maybe the opposing forces were just keeping their
                      claws
                      > > in the pot and stirring up all the failed ideals so that humanity
                      would
                      > > continue to remain distracted.
                      >
                      > You brought it up, Bradford (Matrix) - so now you're obliged to help
                      me out. My new computer suddenly stopped reading CDs - and no one knows
                      why. Microsoft (it's Vista brrr) USA says I must contact Microsoft
                      Argentina, MS Argentina says I must contact the tech office of my
                      seller. That apologetic office tells me they haven't got a clue, that
                      it's impossible. Now, Bradford, which secret society or God is trying to
                      contact me (like Neo in Matrix) through my computer - although in this
                      case through silence?
                      > Frank
                      >
                    • write3chairs
                      ... I hope so! We ought to all be asking and listening to the answers or seeking answers. For instance, I have been following an ongoing conversation about the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 26, 2009
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                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" wrote:

                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" wrote:
                        >
                        > O: is still the same, or on the contrary, what we
                        > > have heard in Germany is that torture is even more
                        > > brutal and cruel than before
                        >
                        > F: Where do you hear this stuff, Ottmar - Das Goetheanum?
                        > Gitmo is in the process of downsizing and out-phasing.
                        > And torture is no longer permitted.
                        >
                        > O: –no change in the economic ideology, the idea is
                        > > still: a return to the times before the economic crisis,
                        > > the fundamental questions are not even asked like:
                        > > what is money really? What is the purpose of industry
                        > > and services, making money or serve the people?

                        > > Make money with money (interest)? What about money where
                        > > there are no goods or services which you could buy with
                        > the money (virtual money, worthless money).
                        >
                        > F: You may be right, but at least an attempt is being
                        > made to to put some handcuffs on the perps. Btw., are
                        > these fundamental questions beng asked in Europe?

                        I hope so! We ought to all be asking and listening to the
                        answers or seeking answers. For instance, I have been following
                        an ongoing conversation about the Self-Help and Actualization
                        Movement, dubbed SHAM by an author who wrote a book by that
                        same title. He claims too many self-proclaimed gurus and
                        recovery addicts are cashing in by selling their worthless
                        products to a gullible audience of people who are just going
                        to keep coming back and buying more and more of their crap,
                        making them rich while making themselves more and more helpless.

                        Well, I really wonder about that because people are not
                        robots who are programmed to buy things just because somebody
                        is saying "buy." Oprah might promote this or that person,
                        but people watching Oprah aren't obligated to buy what she
                        pushes, just as an example. But still, the whole notion of
                        buying self-help products seems to be getting way out of hand.
                        People think they can find relief in a book so they (we) keep
                        buying more and more books. But are we getting to the root of
                        our problems this way? Our materialistic culture encourages
                        spending a lot of money on a lot of things, but what do we
                        really need, more things? Well, yes. We will always need the
                        basic "things" to stay alive, to survive. But beyond that,
                        what else is it that makes life worthwhile. What would Rudolf
                        Steiner say? He probably did a lecture or two or more about it.

                        Jenny
                      • ottmar12
                        F: If that s the European perspective, then the Europeans should start brushing up on their perspectives. The difference between Obama and Bush is as between
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 27, 2009
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                          F: If that's the European perspective, then the Europeans should start
                          brushing up on their perspectives. The difference between Obama and Bush
                          is as between black and white (pub intended). The word "socialist" is,
                          however, still anathema.

                           

                          Ottmar: I'm prepared to learn, I think it's a matter of perspective and opinion. There is abig difference between  the USA and Europe what is the importance of the political parties. Here party programmes are quite important, there is a longer continuity in the political attitudes and policies here in Europe, in the USA it is more centered around the person of the president. (I don't want to start a political seminar though.) So on a scale from 0 to 100 the difference between the 2 main parties in Germany, the Socialdemocrats (in the political colours the reds) and the conservative CDU of Angela Merkel (the Blacks) I would say they are 10 to 15 points apart, decades ago the difference was bigger, now only the far left, the new party that emerged from the Socialist party of the GDR are 20 points further left to the Social democrats. Now what's the difference between the Republican presidents and the Democratic presidents? On internal matters like health insurance they may be far apart, perhaps 25 or 30 points, but in international and economic affairs they are not more than 15 points apart. (I invented this scale here, I think you understood what I mean and the extend of the difference is, as I said, a matter of perspective and opinion. For a strong supporter of either side the difference seems of course to be much bigger than to someone who isn't involved so much. So I think we can agree here that we disagree on that matter.)

                          ===

                          F: Gitmo is already a great shame for America.

                           

                          Ottmar: You are right but my idea was that a whole era of American history will (perhaps unjustly) be reduced to that one word, Guantanamo, just like one word desribes the whole era of other times and other countries.

                          Just to sum it up again: Guantanamo stand for 2 things, one the torture of many prisoners and more and more gruesome details will come out and secondly the breech of juidicial standards, that are accepted for centuries now and broken only by extreme dictatorial regimes and the other great shame is the conscious lying (I am convinced it was conscious lying) to the world public in the UN plenum when Robert Powell told fairy tales about  weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. (The US citizens believed him because there was also a complete failure of the press, but if you looked at the diplomates of the world present there you could see that they didn't believe him and rather believed Mr Blix and many informed Europeans rather believed Mr Blix.)

                           

                          O: is still the same, or on the contrary, what we

                          > have heard in Germany is that torture is even more brutal and cruel
                          than> before
                          F: Where do you hear this stuff, Ottmar - Das Goetheanum? Gitmo is in
                          the process of downsizing and out-phasing. And torture is no longer
                          permitted.

                          Ottmar: I agree with your second last sentence, but your last sentence is the official side from Washington, in Cuba itself, according to a very serious report on TV, the torturers have only cease waterboarding, but hanging the prisoners on their arms and other extremely brutal treatment has increased ever since this change in policy in Washington came up. I admit however that the truth or unthruth of this will finally be proven only in decades, when the soldiers there will write their personal confessions.

                          ===

                          F: You may be right, but at least an attempt is being made to to put
                          some handcuffs on the perps. Btw., are these fundamental questions beng
                          asked in Europe?

                          Ottmar: Well, the fundamental questions are partly asked but by the wrong people, only by the far left. The Ministerpraesident (governour) of the state of Thuringia from the conservatives, the Christian democrates supports the idea of the unconditional fundamental basic income (the anthro idea of bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen). I personally am not convinced of this idea, but the questions is asked, and this particular idea is opposed of course of free marekt capitalists and the far left of course (just like at the time of Rudolf Steiner, when the right and left torpedoed his social impulses.) American policy on free enterprise and social affairs was of course extreme in European eyes and now Obama comes to ideas of the right wing of the German conservatives. Bush jr for example rejected German ideas about regulation of the financial industry (what a word!) in Heiligendamm, now when the baby has fallen in the well (a German idiom, does it exist in English) the US consider right these ideas that were proposed then.

                           

                          No more critical words about the USA, the world hopes for a torch of freedom and humanity.

                          Ottmar





                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" ottmar12@
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > "Adolph? Hitler's ironically named National Socialist Party" Why
                          > > ironically, there were many socialist elements in his ideology, a
                          > > maximum wage of 1000 Marks, the importance of the collective over the
                          > > individual, public welfare and health for the masses and so on.
                          >
                          > F: Actually it was the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party).
                          > But the keywords are "National". Dictators like "national socialism" -
                          > Peron used it in Argentina, fe. It means fascism. And "workers". The
                          > workers are the majority in every country (even if they don't have
                          > work). So the dictators must always appeal to them.
                          >
                          >
                          > O: I personally wouldn't compare the Weimarer Republik with the
                          > > situation in the USA today. From a European perspective there isn't
                          > > such a fundamental difference between the democrats and republicans,
                          > > although the sympathy is of course more with Obama than with Bush jr.
                          >
                          > F: If that's the European perspective, then the Europeans should start
                          > brushing up on their perspectives. The difference between Obama and Bush
                          > is as between black and white (pub intended). The word "socialist" is,
                          > however, still anathema.
                          >
                          > O: However -Guantanamo (which will one day be the source or root of the
                          > > great shame for America)
                          >
                          > F: Already is.
                          >
                          > O: is still the same, or on the contrary, what we
                          > > have heard in Germany is that torture is even more brutal and cruel
                          > than
                          > > before
                          >
                          > F: Where do you hear this stuff, Ottmar - Das Goetheanum? Gitmo is in
                          > the process of downsizing and out-phasing. And torture is no longer
                          > permitted.
                          >
                          > O: –no change in the economic ideology, the idea is still: a
                          > > return to the times before the economic crisis, the fundamental
                          > > questions are not even asked like: what is money really? What is the
                          > > purpose of industry and services, making money or serve the people?
                          > Make
                          > > money with money (interest)? What about money where there are no goods
                          > > or services which you could buy with the money (virtual money,
                          > worthless
                          > > money).
                          >
                          > F: You may be right, but at least an attempt is being made to to put
                          > some handcuffs on the perps. Btw., are these fundamental questions beng
                          > asked in Europe?
                          >
                        • Frank Thomas Smith
                          ... Yeah! Thanks Kim. I had to go to directory and delete a CD drive filter. Seems it s a common problem with vista. But was it a message ...or not? Frank
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 27, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Have you tried to search the net with the name of the CD drive name and
                            > Vista and ERROR or DONT READ or something like that?
                            >
                            > Have you or Microsoft installed a new driver? Try eventually and install
                            > a driver from the computer producer.
                            >
                            > Mvh. Kim

                            Yeah! Thanks Kim. I had to go to directory and delete a CD drive filter. Seems it's a common problem with vista. But was it a message ...or not?
                            Frank


                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                            > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66"
                            > holderlin66@ wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > That our current Sorathian Surge was decoded by Steiner into a clear
                            > > > low-jack anti-rhythm pattern that now travels through time as a time
                            > > > ripple and stands as an anti-time ripple event, even against the
                            > > > certainty of the Lord of Karma and the Etheric Christ. 666 - 1332
                            > is
                            > > > directly linked to the 1998 forming of the Project for a New
                            > American
                            > > > (read Ahrimanic) century. If we read it properly, if we read it and
                            > the
                            > > > intent and warning also formulated in the Matrix film series that
                            > also
                            > > > came out in 1998/9, we understand the announcemnt of the PNAC as the
                            > > > announcement of the coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah, by merely
                            > > > announcing and altering the terms so that we can clearly say from an
                            > > > esoteric and real point of view, that the PNAC were the blueprints
                            > and
                            > > > sketches for the Project for a New Ahrimanic Century. The arrival
                            > and
                            > > > coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah is less than fifty years off maybe
                            > less,
                            > > > maybe more, or maybe the opposing forces were just keeping their
                            > claws
                            > > > in the pot and stirring up all the failed ideals so that humanity
                            > would
                            > > > continue to remain distracted.
                            > >
                            > > You brought it up, Bradford (Matrix) - so now you're obliged to help
                            > me out. My new computer suddenly stopped reading CDs - and no one knows
                            > why. Microsoft (it's Vista brrr) USA says I must contact Microsoft
                            > Argentina, MS Argentina says I must contact the tech office of my
                            > seller. That apologetic office tells me they haven't got a clue, that
                            > it's impossible. Now, Bradford, which secret society or God is trying to
                            > contact me (like Neo in Matrix) through my computer - although in this
                            > case through silence?
                            > > Frank
                            > >
                            >
                          • moniker_9
                            ... Yes, it clearly was. What it means is, you need to be paying a lot more attention to Kim, and to the things he says. (That one was EASY.)
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 27, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Have you tried to search the net with the name of the CD drive name and
                              > > Vista and ERROR or DONT READ or something like that?
                              > >
                              > > Have you or Microsoft installed a new driver? Try eventually and install
                              > > a driver from the computer producer.
                              > >
                              > > Mvh. Kim
                              >
                              > Yeah! Thanks Kim. I had to go to directory and delete a CD drive filter. Seems it's a common problem with vista. But was it a message ...or not?
                              > Frank


                              Yes, it clearly was. What it means is, you need to be paying a lot more attention to Kim, and to the things he says. (That one was EASY.)
                            • Frank Thomas Smith
                              ... F: I can more or less agree on your point system as far as the Dem. and Rep. parties are concerned. However, I think (hope) that things are changing,
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 29, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > F: If that's the European perspective, then the Europeans should start
                                > brushing up on their perspectives. The difference between Obama and Bush
                                > is as between black and white (pub intended). The word "socialist" is,
                                > however, still anathema.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Ottmar: I'm prepared to learn, I think it's a matter of
                                > perspective and opinion. There is abig difference between the USA and
                                > Europe what is the importance of the political parties. Here party
                                > programmes are quite important, there is a longer continuity in the
                                > political attitudes and policies here in Europe, in the USA it is more
                                > centered around the person of the president. (I don't want to start
                                > a political seminar though.) So on a scale from 0 to 100 the difference
                                > between the 2 main parties in Germany, the Socialdemocrats (in the
                                > political colours the reds) and the conservative CDU of Angela Merkel
                                > (the Blacks) I would say they are 10 to 15 points apart, decades ago the
                                > difference was bigger, now only the far left, the new party that emerged
                                > from the Socialist party of the GDR are 20 points further left to the
                                > Social democrats. Now what's the difference between the Republican
                                > presidents and the Democratic presidents? On internal matters like
                                > health insurance they may be far apart, perhaps 25 or 30 points, but in
                                > international and economic affairs they are not more than 15 points
                                > apart. (I invented this scale here, I think you understood what I mean
                                > and the extend of the difference is, as I said, a matter of perspective
                                > and opinion. For a strong supporter of either side the difference seems
                                > of course to be much bigger than to someone who isn't involved so
                                > much. So I think we can agree here that we disagree on that matter.)

                                F: I can more or less agree on your point system as far as the Dem. and Rep. parties are concerned. However, I think (hope) that things are changing, mainly because of Obama. So you are right there as well; in U.S. politics the personality of the president is much more important that the corresponding figures in Europe. This has much to do with the difference in systems: parliamentary vs. presidential. The parliamentary system is, imo, better...but only in stable countries. Look at Israel, a democracy where a small ultra-conservative, religious party can determine the whole countries policies.

                                > ===
                                >
                                > F: Gitmo is already a great shame for America.
                                >
                                >
                                > Ottmar: You are right but my idea was that a whole era of American
                                > history will (perhaps unjustly) be reduced to that one word, Guantanamo,
                                > just like one word desribes the whole era of other times and other
                                > countries. Just to sum it up again: Guantanamo stand for 2 things, one
                                > the torture of many prisoners and more and more gruesome details will
                                > come out and secondly the breech of juidicial standards, that are
                                > accepted for centuries now and broken only by extreme dictatorial
                                > regimes and the other great shame is the conscious lying (I am convinced
                                > it was conscious lying) to the world public in the UN plenum when Robert
                                > Powell told fairy tales about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. (The
                                > US citizens believed him because there was also a complete failure of
                                > the press, but if you looked at the diplomates of the world present
                                > there you could see that they didn't believe him and rather believed
                                > Mr Blix and many informed Europeans rather believed Mr Blix.)

                                F: Yes, but, Robert Powell is an anthroposophist who probably was never in the UN. *Colin* Powell was the Sec. of State who gave that disgraceful lecture at the UN. Now, you may think me naive, but I think that Colin is an honorable man and he believed what he said.


                                >
                                >
                                > O: is still the same, or on the contrary, what we
                                > > have heard in Germany is that torture is even more brutal and cruel
                                > than> before
                                > F: Where do you hear this stuff, Ottmar - Das Goetheanum? Gitmo is in
                                > the process of downsizing and out-phasing. And torture is no longer
                                > permitted.
                                >
                                > Ottmar: I agree with your second last sentence, but your last sentence
                                > is the official side from Washington, in Cuba itself, according to a
                                > very serious report on TV, the torturers have only cease waterboarding,
                                > but hanging the prisoners on their arms and other extremely brutal
                                > treatment has increased ever since this change in policy in Washington
                                > came up. I admit however that the truth or unthruth of this will finally
                                > be proven only in decades, when the soldiers there will write their
                                > personal confessions.

                                F: I don't see how that TV program could possibly know that...except from rumors and/or disinformation. I also don't understand what the motive could be for continuing such tactics, given Obama's order and the huge stink which arose because of just such tactics.


                                >
                                > ===
                                >
                                > F: You may be right, but at least an attempt is being made to to put
                                > some handcuffs on the perps. Btw., are these fundamental questions beng
                                > asked in Europe?
                                >
                                > Ottmar: Well, the fundamental questions are partly asked but by the
                                > wrong people, only by the far left. The Ministerpraesident (governour)
                                > of the state of Thuringia from the conservatives, the Christian
                                > democrates supports the idea of the unconditional fundamental basic
                                > income (the anthro idea of bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen). I personally
                                > am not convinced of this idea, but the questions is asked, and this
                                > particular idea is opposed of course of free marekt capitalists and the
                                > far left of course (just like at the time of Rudolf Steiner, when the
                                > right and left torpedoed his social impulses.) American policy on free
                                > enterprise and social affairs was of course extreme in European eyes and
                                > now Obama comes to ideas of the right wing of the German conservatives.
                                > Bush jr for example rejected German ideas about regulation of the
                                > financial industry (what a word!) in Heiligendamm, now when the baby has
                                > fallen in the well (a German idiom, does it exist in English) the US
                                > consider right these ideas that were proposed then.
                                >

                                The baby has fallen in the well? hmmm. No, not used in English, sounds cruelly Germanic. How about: When the bough breaks the cradle will fall and down will come baby, cradle and all.
                                Frank
                              • holderlin66
                                F: Yes, but, Robert Powell is an anthroposophist who probably was never in the UN. *Colin* Powell was the Sec. of State who gave that disgraceful lecture at
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 30, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  F: Yes, but, Robert Powell is an anthroposophist who probably was never in the
                                  UN. *Colin* Powell was the Sec. of State who gave that disgraceful lecture at
                                  the UN. Now, you may think me naive, but I think that Colin is an honorable man
                                  and he believed what he said.

                                  Colin Powell About His Own U.N. Report: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit."

                                  Oh, ok. That quote was his reaction to a "draft" and not the final report.
                                  (Theoretically the report was transformed accordingly into something Powell could stomach before reading it to the world.)

                                  Bradford comments;

                                  This soggy, uninformed, nonsensical spin that you constantly push under our noses brings us to something of an ongoing diagnosis of the warm hearted and constantly limp patriotic junk you pander to.  Who do you imagine your talking to? Of course not me, of course, perhaps its the sixth grade intelligence that has always come to your aid when dealing with Anthros who apparently constantly think you are a wise old man, level headed and all that.  It is shallow, unplumbed exiled American spy jargon that seems to constantly step into the middle of arguments, either with humor, always fun, nothing to be afraid of, Frank is sweet.  He peddles patriotic dim witted propaganda and hopes that what?  That the uninformed dupes will think him the Fox News Queen of fair and balanced?

                                  Military Intelligence and some sort of modest virus over the long haul seems to have impressed your intelligence so that you steer people away from the truth, and hold up the party propaganda line with literally corrupt interpretations that make way for the sweet human failings of lack of discernment.  Please I am disappointed enough in Tom, at least attempt to think in sharp contours and lines instead of gauzy, opaque half-truths.  Because it worries me that someone of your experience and strength constantly attempts to water down and cheapen the sharp contours and edges so that sweet little Anthronauts won't stub their toes but remain in mushy swamp of undiscerned and undigested warmth. 

                                  Why? A survivor after all those years of Anthro political works of appeasement and keeping the sweet intelligent Michael ideals together, you prefer just to look at Michael Intel as some fresh made apple pie set as bait for the unsuspecting fool to sniff and get their heads blown off by the horrific blast of some Ahrimanic shotgun.  At least warn the consumer, this political arena is guarded by big ferocious dogs ready to snap an arm off and the property is owned by rednecks who love to shoot tresspassers with buckshot in the ass for fun.

                                  Colin caved in and was an unfortunate team player and victim of his own press.  Who more perfect and trustworthy to deliver the lies that caused all this horror.  Horror, do not understand the word nightmare, torture Abu Graib and horror? What the hell are you smoking down there anyways?

                                   

                                • Frank Thomas Smith
                                  ... under ... spy ... sweet. ... [http://gamerentory.com/info/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/mgs4-review.jpg]
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 30, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66" <holderlin66@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Bradford comments;
                                    >
                                    > This soggy, uninformed, nonsensical spin that you constantly push under
                                    > our noses brings us to something of an ongoing diagnosis of the warm
                                    > hearted and constantly limp patriotic junk you pander to. Who do you
                                    > imagine your talking to? Of course not me, of course, perhaps its the
                                    > sixth grade intelligence that has always come to your aid when dealing
                                    > with Anthros who apparently constantly think you are a wise old man,
                                    > level headed and all that. It is shallow, unplumbed exiled American spy
                                    > jargon that seems to constantly step into the middle of arguments,
                                    > either with humor, always fun, nothing to be afraid of, Frank is sweet.
                                    > He peddles patriotic dim witted propaganda and hopes that what? That
                                    > the uninformed dupes will think him the Fox News Queen of fair and
                                    > balanced?

                                    http://gamerentory.com/info/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/mgs4-review.jpg






                                  • ottmar12
                                    Hi Frank, ok, sure Robert Powell is an anthroposophist, I ve known him for many years and he was here in Pforzheim 2 weeks ago, I missed his lectures and I
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 31, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Frank,
                                      ok, sure Robert Powell is an anthroposophist, I've known him for many years and he was here in Pforzheim 2 weeks ago, I missed his lectures and I talked with friends about him, so I mixed up the names (perhaps Alzheimer is knocking on my door ;-) )
                                      I know that Colin Powell now regrets his lecture at the UN, but didn't he know better then? He knew that Bush and Co absolutely wanted that war, as a top military man he should have been able to judge himself and check independent sources (Blix report) not CIA material alone, he should have known that these reports are often part of policy and not facts alone, he missed the chance to become a hero in the course of world history.
                                      F: I don't see how that TV program could possibly know that...except from rumors
                                      and/or disinformation. I also don't understand what the motive could be for
                                      continuing such tactics, given Obama's order and the huge stink which arose
                                      because of just such tactics.
                                      The information came from recently freed prisoners, the motives lie within the military commanders, judges etc who resent the new military direction of the Obama administration, like in Abu Ghreib these practises are actively tolerated (if this contradictio in adjecto is permitted). And how do you proof non bloody torture like humiliation, days without sleep, noise, ………
                                      That you haven't heard of more aggressive ferocity of the torturers in American media is no surprise for me at all.
                                      Regards Otmar



                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > F: If that's the European perspective, then the Europeans should start
                                      > > brushing up on their perspectives. The difference between Obama and Bush
                                      > > is as between black and white (pub intended). The word "socialist" is,
                                      > > however, still anathema.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Ottmar: I'm prepared to learn, I think it's a matter of
                                      > > perspective and opinion. There is abig difference between the USA and
                                      > > Europe what is the importance of the political parties. Here party
                                      > > programmes are quite important, there is a longer continuity in the
                                      > > political attitudes and policies here in Europe, in the USA it is more
                                      > > centered around the person of the president. (I don't want to start
                                      > > a political seminar though.) So on a scale from 0 to 100 the difference
                                      > > between the 2 main parties in Germany, the Socialdemocrats (in the
                                      > > political colours the reds) and the conservative CDU of Angela Merkel
                                      > > (the Blacks) I would say they are 10 to 15 points apart, decades ago the
                                      > > difference was bigger, now only the far left, the new party that emerged
                                      > > from the Socialist party of the GDR are 20 points further left to the
                                      > > Social democrats. Now what's the difference between the Republican
                                      > > presidents and the Democratic presidents? On internal matters like
                                      > > health insurance they may be far apart, perhaps 25 or 30 points, but in
                                      > > international and economic affairs they are not more than 15 points
                                      > > apart. (I invented this scale here, I think you understood what I mean
                                      > > and the extend of the difference is, as I said, a matter of perspective
                                      > > and opinion. For a strong supporter of either side the difference seems
                                      > > of course to be much bigger than to someone who isn't involved so
                                      > > much. So I think we can agree here that we disagree on that matter.)
                                      >
                                      > F: I can more or less agree on your point system as far as the Dem. and Rep. parties are concerned. However, I think (hope) that things are changing, mainly because of Obama. So you are right there as well; in U.S. politics the personality of the president is much more important that the corresponding figures in Europe. This has much to do with the difference in systems: parliamentary vs. presidential. The parliamentary system is, imo, better...but only in stable countries. Look at Israel, a democracy where a small ultra-conservative, religious party can determine the whole countries policies.
                                      >
                                      > > ===
                                      > >
                                      > > F: Gitmo is already a great shame for America.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Ottmar: You are right but my idea was that a whole era of American
                                      > > history will (perhaps unjustly) be reduced to that one word, Guantanamo,
                                      > > just like one word desribes the whole era of other times and other
                                      > > countries. Just to sum it up again: Guantanamo stand for 2 things, one
                                      > > the torture of many prisoners and more and more gruesome details will
                                      > > come out and secondly the breech of juidicial standards, that are
                                      > > accepted for centuries now and broken only by extreme dictatorial
                                      > > regimes and the other great shame is the conscious lying (I am convinced
                                      > > it was conscious lying) to the world public in the UN plenum when Robert
                                      > > Powell told fairy tales about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. (The
                                      > > US citizens believed him because there was also a complete failure of
                                      > > the press, but if you looked at the diplomates of the world present
                                      > > there you could see that they didn't believe him and rather believed
                                      > > Mr Blix and many informed Europeans rather believed Mr Blix.)
                                      >
                                      > F: Yes, but, Robert Powell is an anthroposophist who probably was never in the UN. *Colin* Powell was the Sec. of State who gave that disgraceful lecture at the UN. Now, you may think me naive, but I think that Colin is an honorable man and he believed what he said.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > O: is still the same, or on the contrary, what we
                                      > > > have heard in Germany is that torture is even more brutal and cruel
                                      > > than> before
                                      > > F: Where do you hear this stuff, Ottmar - Das Goetheanum? Gitmo is in
                                      > > the process of downsizing and out-phasing. And torture is no longer
                                      > > permitted.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ottmar: I agree with your second last sentence, but your last sentence
                                      > > is the official side from Washington, in Cuba itself, according to a
                                      > > very serious report on TV, the torturers have only cease waterboarding,
                                      > > but hanging the prisoners on their arms and other extremely brutal
                                      > > treatment has increased ever since this change in policy in Washington
                                      > > came up. I admit however that the truth or unthruth of this will finally
                                      > > be proven only in decades, when the soldiers there will write their
                                      > > personal confessions.
                                      >
                                      > F: I don't see how that TV program could possibly know that...except from rumors and/or disinformation. I also don't understand what the motive could be for continuing such tactics, given Obama's order and the huge stink which arose because of just such tactics.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > ===
                                      > >
                                      > > F: You may be right, but at least an attempt is being made to to put
                                      > > some handcuffs on the perps. Btw., are these fundamental questions beng
                                      > > asked in Europe?
                                      > >
                                      > > Ottmar: Well, the fundamental questions are partly asked but by the
                                      > > wrong people, only by the far left. The Ministerpraesident (governour)
                                      > > of the state of Thuringia from the conservatives, the Christian
                                      > > democrates supports the idea of the unconditional fundamental basic
                                      > > income (the anthro idea of bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen). I personally
                                      > > am not convinced of this idea, but the questions is asked, and this
                                      > > particular idea is opposed of course of free marekt capitalists and the
                                      > > far left of course (just like at the time of Rudolf Steiner, when the
                                      > > right and left torpedoed his social impulses.) American policy on free
                                      > > enterprise and social affairs was of course extreme in European eyes and
                                      > > now Obama comes to ideas of the right wing of the German conservatives.
                                      > > Bush jr for example rejected German ideas about regulation of the
                                      > > financial industry (what a word!) in Heiligendamm, now when the baby has
                                      > > fallen in the well (a German idiom, does it exist in English) the US
                                      > > consider right these ideas that were proposed then.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > The baby has fallen in the well? hmmm. No, not used in English, sounds cruelly Germanic. How about: When the bough breaks the cradle will fall and down will come baby, cradle and all.
                                      > Frank
                                      >
                                    • Frank Thomas Smith
                                      ... Hallo Ottmar, O: Hi Frank, ... F: Or maybe R. Powell works for the CIA under the cloak of anthroposophy and you re one of his agents - eh? Na ja, I don t
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 2, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        Hallo Ottmar,

                                        O: > Hi Frank,
                                        > ok, sure Robert Powell is an anthroposophist, I've known him for many years and he was here in Pforzheim 2 weeks ago, I missed his lectures and I talked with friends about him, so I mixed up the names (perhaps Alzheimer is knocking on my door ;-) )

                                        F: Or maybe R. Powell works for the CIA under the cloak of anthroposophy and you're one of his agents - eh? Na ja, I don't really believe that, but when one hangs around here long enough and listens to Bradford's (Holderlin's - no relation to the philosopher, it's a strip joint Bradford's said to run in Texas.)conspiracy theories, everything is possible. He's hung up on Der Doktor's conspiracies of 100 +/- years ago and is convinced he has a direct line to super-sensitive, secret information from the devanchan.

                                        O: I know that Colin Powell now regrets his lecture at the UN, but didn't he know better then? He knew that Bush and Co absolutely wanted that war, as a top military man he should have been able to judge himself and check independent sources (Blix report) not CIA material alone, he should have known that these reports are often part of policy and not facts alone, he missed the chance to become a hero in the course of world history.

                                        F: Sure he should have known, but remember that he was an army general and those guys believe anything a so-called "intelligence analyst" tells them. Believe me, I know because I was one. Although I was only a sergeant, for my colonel my analyses were Gospel truth. Knowing that, I invented only the (harmless) "intelligence" that he wanted to hear and which he could happily pass on to his superiors without having an ounce of evidence.

                                        > F: I don't see how that TV program could possibly know that...except from rumors
                                        > and/or disinformation. I also don't understand what the motive could be for
                                        > continuing such tactics, given Obama's order and the huge stink which arose
                                        > because of just such tactics.


                                        O: The information came from recently freed prisoners, the motives lie within the military commanders, judges etc who resent the new military direction of the Obama administration, like in Abu Ghreib these practises are actively tolerated (if this contradictio in adjecto is permitted). And how do you proof non bloody torture like humiliation, days without sleep, noise, ………
                                        > That you haven't heard of more aggressive ferocity of the torturers in American media is no surprise for me at all.

                                        F: Sorry, Ottmar, but those are "unreliable witnesses" - in quotes because I've just written a story with that title that will appear in the next Southern Cross Review and of which I now offer a sneak preview:
                                        http://southerncrossreview.org/64/fox-blind.htm

                                        Alles gute,
                                        Frank

                                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > F: If that's the European perspective, then the Europeans should start
                                        > > > brushing up on their perspectives. The difference between Obama and Bush
                                        > > > is as between black and white (pub intended). The word "socialist" is,
                                        > > > however, still anathema.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Ottmar: I'm prepared to learn, I think it's a matter of
                                        > > > perspective and opinion. There is abig difference between the USA and
                                        > > > Europe what is the importance of the political parties. Here party
                                        > > > programmes are quite important, there is a longer continuity in the
                                        > > > political attitudes and policies here in Europe, in the USA it is more
                                        > > > centered around the person of the president. (I don't want to start
                                        > > > a political seminar though.) So on a scale from 0 to 100 the difference
                                        > > > between the 2 main parties in Germany, the Socialdemocrats (in the
                                        > > > political colours the reds) and the conservative CDU of Angela Merkel
                                        > > > (the Blacks) I would say they are 10 to 15 points apart, decades ago the
                                        > > > difference was bigger, now only the far left, the new party that emerged
                                        > > > from the Socialist party of the GDR are 20 points further left to the
                                        > > > Social democrats. Now what's the difference between the Republican
                                        > > > presidents and the Democratic presidents? On internal matters like
                                        > > > health insurance they may be far apart, perhaps 25 or 30 points, but in
                                        > > > international and economic affairs they are not more than 15 points
                                        > > > apart. (I invented this scale here, I think you understood what I mean
                                        > > > and the extend of the difference is, as I said, a matter of perspective
                                        > > > and opinion. For a strong supporter of either side the difference seems
                                        > > > of course to be much bigger than to someone who isn't involved so
                                        > > > much. So I think we can agree here that we disagree on that matter.)
                                        > >
                                        > > F: I can more or less agree on your point system as far as the Dem. and Rep. parties are concerned. However, I think (hope) that things are changing, mainly because of Obama. So you are right there as well; in U.S. politics the personality of the president is much more important that the corresponding figures in Europe. This has much to do with the difference in systems: parliamentary vs. presidential. The parliamentary system is, imo, better...but only in stable countries. Look at Israel, a democracy where a small ultra-conservative, religious party can determine the whole countries policies.
                                        > >
                                        > > > ===
                                        > > >
                                        > > > F: Gitmo is already a great shame for America.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Ottmar: You are right but my idea was that a whole era of American
                                        > > > history will (perhaps unjustly) be reduced to that one word, Guantanamo,
                                        > > > just like one word desribes the whole era of other times and other
                                        > > > countries. Just to sum it up again: Guantanamo stand for 2 things, one
                                        > > > the torture of many prisoners and more and more gruesome details will
                                        > > > come out and secondly the breech of juidicial standards, that are
                                        > > > accepted for centuries now and broken only by extreme dictatorial
                                        > > > regimes and the other great shame is the conscious lying (I am convinced
                                        > > > it was conscious lying) to the world public in the UN plenum when Robert
                                        > > > Powell told fairy tales about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. (The
                                        > > > US citizens believed him because there was also a complete failure of
                                        > > > the press, but if you looked at the diplomates of the world present
                                        > > > there you could see that they didn't believe him and rather believed
                                        > > > Mr Blix and many informed Europeans rather believed Mr Blix.)
                                        > >
                                        > > F: Yes, but, Robert Powell is an anthroposophist who probably was never in the UN. *Colin* Powell was the Sec. of State who gave that disgraceful lecture at the UN. Now, you may think me naive, but I think that Colin is an honorable man and he believed what he said.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > O: is still the same, or on the contrary, what we
                                        > > > > have heard in Germany is that torture is even more brutal and cruel
                                        > > > than> before
                                        > > > F: Where do you hear this stuff, Ottmar - Das Goetheanum? Gitmo is in
                                        > > > the process of downsizing and out-phasing. And torture is no longer
                                        > > > permitted.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Ottmar: I agree with your second last sentence, but your last sentence
                                        > > > is the official side from Washington, in Cuba itself, according to a
                                        > > > very serious report on TV, the torturers have only cease waterboarding,
                                        > > > but hanging the prisoners on their arms and other extremely brutal
                                        > > > treatment has increased ever since this change in policy in Washington
                                        > > > came up. I admit however that the truth or unthruth of this will finally
                                        > > > be proven only in decades, when the soldiers there will write their
                                        > > > personal confessions.
                                        > >
                                        > > F: I don't see how that TV program could possibly know that...except from rumors and/or disinformation. I also don't understand what the motive could be for continuing such tactics, given Obama's order and the huge stink which arose because of just such tactics.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ===
                                        > > >
                                        > > > F: You may be right, but at least an attempt is being made to to put
                                        > > > some handcuffs on the perps. Btw., are these fundamental questions beng
                                        > > > asked in Europe?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Ottmar: Well, the fundamental questions are partly asked but by the
                                        > > > wrong people, only by the far left. The Ministerpraesident (governour)
                                        > > > of the state of Thuringia from the conservatives, the Christian
                                        > > > democrates supports the idea of the unconditional fundamental basic
                                        > > > income (the anthro idea of bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen). I personally
                                        > > > am not convinced of this idea, but the questions is asked, and this
                                        > > > particular idea is opposed of course of free marekt capitalists and the
                                        > > > far left of course (just like at the time of Rudolf Steiner, when the
                                        > > > right and left torpedoed his social impulses.) American policy on free
                                        > > > enterprise and social affairs was of course extreme in European eyes and
                                        > > > now Obama comes to ideas of the right wing of the German conservatives.
                                        > > > Bush jr for example rejected German ideas about regulation of the
                                        > > > financial industry (what a word!) in Heiligendamm, now when the baby has
                                        > > > fallen in the well (a German idiom, does it exist in English) the US
                                        > > > consider right these ideas that were proposed then.
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > The baby has fallen in the well? hmmm. No, not used in English, sounds cruelly Germanic. How about: When the bough breaks the cradle will fall and down will come baby, cradle and all.
                                        > > Frank
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Brad Martin
                                        Mr. Holderlin66, your evidence is 100% bullshit. If you are serious about the process of life and the history of the cosmos, you get out of Steiner says
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 3, 2009
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                                          Mr. Holderlin66, your evidence is 100% bullshit. If you are serious about the process of life and the history of the cosmos, you get out of "Steiner says" fundamentalism, and start reading one of the best comprehensions of the "patterns of the universe", the "mind of g_d", with Irvin Laszlo's, "Science and the Akashic Field: An Integral Theory of Everything.
                                          Brad


                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervin_L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3

                                          "holderlin66" <holderlin66@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > That our current Sorathian Surge was decoded by Steiner into a clear
                                          > > low-jack anti-rhythm pattern that now travels through time as a time
                                          > > ripple and stands as an anti-time ripple event, even against the
                                          > > certainty of the Lord of Karma and the Etheric Christ. 666 - 1332 is
                                          > > directly linked to the 1998 forming of the Project for a New American
                                          > > (read Ahrimanic) century. If we read it properly, if we read it and the
                                          > > intent and warning also formulated in the Matrix film series that also
                                          > > came out in 1998/9, we understand the announcemnt of the PNAC as the
                                          > > announcement of the coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah, by merely
                                          > > announcing and altering the terms so that we can clearly say from an
                                          > > esoteric and real point of view, that the PNAC were the blueprints and
                                          > > sketches for the Project for a New Ahrimanic Century. The arrival and
                                          > > coming of the Ahrimanic Messiah is less than fifty years off maybe less,
                                          > > maybe more, or maybe the opposing forces were just keeping their claws
                                          > > in the pot and stirring up all the failed ideals so that humanity would
                                          > > continue to remain distracted.
                                          >
                                          > You brought it up, Bradford (Matrix) - so now you're obliged to help me out. My new computer suddenly stopped reading CDs - and no one knows why. Microsoft (it's Vista brrr) USA says I must contact Microsoft Argentina, MS Argentina says I must contact the tech office of my seller. That apologetic office tells me they haven't got a clue, that it's impossible. Now, Bradford, which secret society or God is trying to contact me (like Neo in Matrix) through my computer - although in this case through silence?
                                          > Frank
                                          >
                                        • holderlin66
                                          Mr. Holderlin66, your evidence is 100% bullshit. If you are serious about the process of life and the history of the cosmos, you get out of Steiner says
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 4, 2009
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                                            Mr. Holderlin66, your evidence is 100% bullshit. If you are serious about the
                                            process of life and the history of the cosmos, you get out of "Steiner says"
                                            fundamentalism, and start reading one of the best comprehensions of the
                                            "patterns of the universe", the "mind of g_d", with Irvin Laszlo's, "Science and
                                            the Akashic Field: An Integral Theory of Everything.
                                            Brad

                                            Bradford comments;

                                            Laszlo was the wonderful idealist in Rick's world in the film Casablanca.  I am always willing to consider any initiate research or thoughtful insights into An Integral...(Gral) Theory of Everything. So Brad give us something to chew on, something you consider throws light on a problem and we can compare notes. I am already dealing with an accurate Initiate and contributing and supporting solid insights into time and history.  And my research is always open to new Michael ways of expressing insights, and bless you my son if you have found a pipeline and lightening rod for higher Michael thought.  Present it.  Present something of it. Or do you just waddle in and take a little dump and scamper off.  Give some enticing research.  I looked at the reference you gave but it didn't take me to insights that open me yet.  True I am stubborn about certain thinking tendencies but of all people around here I tend to be interested and encouraged by even the faintest signs of Michael Intelligence.  I hope your insights prove themselves as brightly and solidly as Steiner's continue to do.

                                            After the financial 'Big Bang' - 9/11 week 2008

                                            Terry Boardman

                                            [for D.]


                                            'Big Bang' was the theme of last week, seven years to the week after those 'Big Bangs' of September 2001. There was a big bang of sorts in Zimbabwe.The 'Big Bang particle collider machine' was switched on at CERN, but a few days later turned  out to be a damp squib. And then of course, there was the real Big Bang - once again, as seven years ago, in New York.

                                            Where we are now

                                            In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 Tony Blair made a well-publicised speech in which he said (not verbatim) that the kaleidoscope had been shaken, the pieces were all in flux and it was up to 'us' to reorder them as we will before they settle again. 7 years on, last Sunday, Blair's successor Gordon Brown, in an interview on the BBC TV's Andrew Marr Show (N.b. Marr used to be an editor on the elite globalists' favourite mag, The Economist and already runs a flagship BBC radio programme) said that the present financial crisis was an opportunity to create a new financial global architecture, a new international regulatory system, because "we are now in a new world", in which the nation state can no longer deal with global problems. Yesterday, the *23*rd Sept, 7 days after the present financial architecture all but collapsed, at the Labour Party annual conference Brown made the speech that may make or break his political career and again alluded to such changes. This political instrument of New World Order elitists, who has spoken  countless times on the theme of the 'New World Order' and always in advocacy of it, will doubtless say more after his trip to the US about the 'opportunity to create a new financial global architecture and a new international regulatory system.' We can ask ourselves whether in fact last week's events were not the conclusion of a well-planned campaign to push the NWO agenda onto the next level in terms of this global financial architecture, or 'freemasonry'. This will involve major changes for the USA, changes to be pushed through by the architects' on-site builder, Barack Obama.

                                            In a year that falls 66 years after the Battle of Stalingrad, we have just been through a time as momentous in its way, although more abstract, as the week of 9/11 seven years ago and as the week of the Fall of the Berlin Wall 19 years ago.  Mugabe has finally been forced to give ground in Zimbabwe - and as yet without mass bloodshed. Beyond this, we have all seen a massive weakening of US financial power, the nakedness of the parading American Emperor. The USA has from last week on, in effect, become, like the Ottoman Empire, the Sick Man of the World, by which is meant that the fundamental weakness of the American economy has been laid bare to the whole world. The USA will doubtless struggle on for a few decades more but as long as she maintains her present ways, which will not be ameliorated even by an $800 billion or $1 trillion bailout, she is being readied to merge with Canada and Mexico into the North American Union, and the dollar is being readied to become the amero. The powers-that-be are revamping the USA and preparing it for a different role, for merger in a larger whole. Do we seriously imagine that the likes of Alan Greenspan  oversaw the US economy for all those years until his resignation 2 years back and did not foresee the consequences of the grotesque self-indulgence of Wall St? Gordon Brown was on the BBC this morning maintaining exactly that for himself. Were Greenspan and Brown not like city police chiefs turning a blind eye to  continuous shipments of cocaine and other drugs into their cities and pretending such activity would have no ultimate serious fallout effect on the cities' socio-economic fabric? But ever since the late 80s, Greenspan's ilk, connected to the Rockefellers, had been calling for the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act (1933) that was put in place after the Great Crash to *stop* banks indulging in exactly the kind of profligate casino economics they have been bingeing on since 1999, when Greenspan and friends got their way, and the Act was repealed by Clinton.

                                            The EU was created after the European peoples had been so battered by war that they allowed their elites to lead them into what was touted as a solution to their problems. The American people would never voluntarily have surrendered the dollar and their national autonomy, so they have in the last 8 years been so battered by the consequences of political and economic crimes that they too are now being led by their elite into the 'solution-structure' prepared for them. The elite are tiptoeing carefully in the aftermath of the crisis they themselves have brought to a head over the past 9 years for they know that a wrong move might just possibly result in some kind of popular revolt. But by another dose of FDR-ish New Dealism they hope to paper over the domestic financial cracks (or rather, gaping holes) and push the battered populace into accepting the end of US national sovereignty. Meanwhile, the only major financial investment bank to have come out of all this with a Cheshire cat smile on its face would seem to be Goldman Sachs, which this morning (24th Sept) received a $5 billion buttressing from Warren Buffet. It was interesting to hear the Chief Economist at Goldman Sachs (London) on  BBC radio this morning (The Today Programme) saying almost complacently that the current crisis was not THAT bad, certainly not as bad as 1929 and the 1930s and that what people needed to keep focused on was growing opportunities in the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India and China). Well, he would say that wouldn't he, as his bank have come out very much on top of the investment bank greasy pole. Even Morgan Stanley looked to be tottering last week and  needed assistance. Only Goldman Sachs seemed to be in the clear. Watch that space.

                                            The Preparations for the New World Order 1971-2008

                                            The current events can be seen as connected to those of the early 1970s. The present crisis began last summer with the alleged proximate trigger {not cause] that was the so-called sub-prime mortgage crisis, and then the  onset of the credit crunch. That came 33 years after the disastrous year of 1974, following the Arab-Israel War and the First Oil Shock. In '71 Nixon had effected a financial revolution when he floated the dollar and ended any remaining illusions of money being related to anything real. The following year, '72, he and Kissinger  visited Beijing and effected a diplomatic revolution, recognising China's coming emergence. David Rockefeller followed them to Beijing the next year, and then bingo! - war and oil shock in the Middle East. The Rockefeller-connected Club of Rome and others began prattling about an environmental crisis and then the coming ice age - no talk of global warming then. In '73 Rockefeller and friends founded the Trilateral Commission to integrate the elite management of America, Europe, and Asia by bringing in 'cooperative' elite elements from Japan and China, including the Chinese outside the People's Republic. In the same period Rockefeller, Zbigniew Brzezinski and others set up the 1980s Project to plan the termination of the USSR experiment.

                                            By 1978 preparations were over, and the plan was set in motion: one Pope was assassinated and a Polish Pope installed; the Trilateral-controlled Carter administration was installed, in which the Polish-American, Russia-hating Brzezinski was National Security Advisor. He proceeded to create for Russia its own Vietnam in Aghanistan, the USA having by its actions and policies  in effect handed Iran over to Khomeini by 1979. The independent-minded Bhutto was removed in Pakistan, executed and the fundamentalist militarist Zia put in his place. Thatcher and Reagan, the dogmatic ideologists of free market capitalism, of financial deregulation and privatisation, were manoeuvred into power. Brzezinski and his controllers now had in place fundamentalists in the US and UK, in the Vatican and in Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan that they could use to put pressure on the Soviets from the East while in the West they put pressure on them by supporting Solidarnosc in Poland and the Polish Pope in Rome; Reagan's regime was unusually staffed with Catholics for the purpose. Reagan and Thatcher completed the process by their unrelenting verbal and financial pressure re. 'Star Wars' , hardball rhetoric and the threat of armageddon. Then London and Washington carried through in tandem the financial Big Bang of the 1980s - the liberalisation of financial services, deregulation and privatisation of the global capitalist economy, which laid the ground work for the post-Cold war, telecoms and Internet-driven globalisation of the 1990s. After 10 years of all this pressure, the USSR was finished, and in 1989, after an experiment lasting 72 years, it was effectively terminated, final closure being effected by "our man in Moscow" Mikhail Gorbachev, in 1991. So in the early 1970s the High Priests of the West, operating through their chief public instruments, the Rockefellers and their affiliates and subordinates, began to plan for the world that would emerge after the final passing of the great historical wave that had commenced with the onset of the Industrial Revolution 200 years before and had led ultimately to the struggle between capitalism and socialism/communism. This is what last week's events were part of since British and American predominance played a crucial role in that great wave.

                                            As I see it, the powers-that-be are keen to see the materialist values promoted by British and American culture continue on into the next post-Industrial Revolution era and are now rearranging the pieces on their chessboard to ensure that this happens.

                                            In 1991-2003 came the US' unipolar, historical 12-year moment of self-indulgent hubris. But that was only a transition before the arrival of the New World Order that Bush Snr. announced in Congress already on 11 Sept 1990. He announced it then, and preparations for it began, as they had in the early 70s for the end of the Soviet Experiment. In 1993, the Rockefeller's political instrument Clinton expedited  NAFTA, and the World Trade Centre was attacked for the first time. Those two events can be seen as linked. Since 11 Sept 2001 we have been seeing the onset of what was prepared then, like that other onset in 1978. The attacks of 9/11 were not only brought about by the Neocons of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC)  in order to justify the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan; they occurred as the first strike of the globalist elite (the 'ahrmanic brotherhoods', if you will) on the USA itself in order to bring to an end the century-old era of US nationalist-imperial predominance that began with the Spanish-American War in 1898 and the 'trance-formation' of the USA from national-imperialist hegemon into major *component* of the globalists' new Transatlantic Order, or Union, of America and Europe, which is intended to face down the challenge from China and Russia. The real High Priests had operated through the British Empire, had allowed the USA to separate itself from Britain in order to become an independent nation state that would later serve to block and suppress the challenges from Germany and Russia that Britain would not have been able to deal with by itself. But after less far-seeing elements in the British elite had tried to apply the old formula of 'divide and rule' to the USA by supporting the Confederacy in the Civil War and had failed, the High Priests reestablished the connection between Britain and the USA via Cecil Rhodes and his 'Anglo-saxon empire project' and all that came out of it so that for almost all the 20th century, Britain and the USA worked together, and the US pushed the British empire into imperial receivership: the junior partner in The Firm appeared to take the place of the senior partner. The Romans had defeated the Greeks again...the High Priests were still operating between Britain and the US but required Britain to take a back seat in the relationship for a time.

                                            Rudolf Steiner indicated that those investigating the world have to observe how events in their own  lives relate to outer events. In my case I observed last week that this financial earthquake in NYC, coming as it did 7 years after the 9/11 attacks on the same city, happened at the same time as I became interested in the ancient legend of the Palladium and also when I first noted that the mineral Palladium was mined in just 3 locations round the world, one being Zimbabwe, where this week, another earthquake of sorts took place, as Mugabe was finally forced to share power with the opposition MDC. Another 'chance' personal contact drew my attention to the Emperor Hadrian, who was responsible for the Jewish Diaspora in 136 AD with all its consequences that have reached right down to our time. Then I learned that there is a major exhibition on the theme of Emperor Hadrian at the British Museum this autumn. Hadrian's reign was not only the high point of the Roman Empire, but I learned that Hadrian was also responsible for ensuring the subsequent succession of the Antonine dynasty, which, after "the good" Marcus Aurelius, produced the appalling gladiator-Emperor Commodus - the subject of the Ridley Scott  blockbuster "Gladiator", the big film of the year 2000. I had long felt this film was significant;  it signalled a major crisis in the Roman Empire both then and now, and indeed the reign of Commodus was the beginning of the end for Rome, which declined steadily over the next century.

                                            Rome, Byzantium and the Palladium

                                            This reminded me of the book "The End of the American Era" by Charles A. Kupchan (2002), publicly recommended by Henry Kissinger and endorsed by the powerful Council on Foreign Relations, in which the author lays out that the present situation is similar to the handover from Rome to Constantinople (Nova Roma) in 330 by Constantine, who was based in Britain before he became Emperor. The USA, writes Kupchan, with his impeccable US elite credentials, is going to hand over to a new Byzantium - the EU. And the financial centre of "the new (East) Roman Empire" will move from NYC to London. Things began to fall into place when I remembered what Steiner had said in a lecture of 6 Nov. 1921 about the event of 330, namely, that Constantine, fearing the Sibylline prophecies about the end of Rome, sought to forestall them and save the Roman Empire (even if Rome itself could not be saved) by transferring the Palladium from Rome to Constantinople. Not only had the Palladium (a statue of Pallas Athena, goddess of wisdom and defensive war) been the protector, first of Troy, then of Rome - as long as it was kept within those cities - it was also, according to Steiner, the outer symbol of the deepest western mystery - that of the threefold Sun - the Sun as 'reflector' of the light of the planetary heavens, and the fall, (or 'darkening') of the Sun mystery (spiritual knowledge of the heavens) from heaven to earth to the point c.330 AD, where it had disappeared deep within the unconscious darkness of the human will.

                                            The Palldium's Pallas Athena, standing on a small column with a snake entwined around it, wore her helmet and carried her spear and at her side was a lion. Constantine took this statue from the Temple of Vesta (goddess of the hearth or home) in the very centre of Rome (the Forum) and had it buried in Constantinople under a huge porphyry column surmounted by a statue of Apollo with a face modelled on that of the Emperor. Apollo was given a nimbus crown which supposedly included relics from the True Cross of Christ. This was a symbol of the final burial of the ancient Sun wisdom, as Constantine sought to make Christianity the religion of his unified State. According to legend, the Palladium had been brought to Italy by the Trojan Aeneas, who had fled  from the sacked Troy - via N. Africa and his relationship with Dido who had founded Carthage - to Latium. There his descendents later founded Rome, and according to other legends, his descendent Brutus made his way to Britain, named it after himself and founded the forerunner of London. What matters is that people believed these legends were true. So Constantine transferred the Palladium back from west to east, to the very same region where it had been before - the site of Troy is not far Constantinople, and just 'up the road' from the Dardanelles and Gallipoli, where in 1915, the British had tried and failed to invade the Ottoman Empire. Dardanus was the father of Illus, legendary founder of Troy, who found the Palladium; it had fallen from heaven, or rather, was thrown down by Zeus, but that's another story....

                                            Modern economic life since the 17th century is based on credit. What is credit? It is when you say "Yes" to someone. It is your affirmation of someone: "I believe in you". Affirmation, saying yes, is in that 1921
                                            Steiner lecture about the Palladium related to the spiritual power of the Sun, or rather, the reflected light of the heavens - it is spiritual light within the soul, risen to the level of the mind, of judgment. When we affirm or say Yes, we enlighten; when we negate or say No, we darken. Love in the will, life in the feelings (sympathy and antipathy), light in the mind - this is the threefold Sun, as brought to expression in the ancient Persian, Egyptian and Greek cultures respectively. NYC and London are twin financial centres. The Twin Towers were destroyed in 9/11, but in fact 3 towers were destroyed, if we include WTC7. At the same time 3 towers were being built in London, at Canary Wharf and opposite them a huge Dome had been constructed for the Millennium - the Millennium Dome. This is an echo of the great church Hagia Sophia (Holy Spirit), with its great dome that seemed to float on a ring of light, as the light poured in through the ring of windows below it. This architectural miracle was erected by Constantine's later successor, Justinian, in Constantinople. It was a symbol of the rigidly MONOlithic, temporal-spiritual, unifed Empire that Justinian sought to consolidate: ONE Empire, ONE Church, ONE Emperor. The 6 Towers of WTC and Canary Wharf can be seen as towers dedicated to business, and thus to credit - an abstract, modern form of the Sun power of YES. NYC's credit was taken down as London's stock of credit went up. The week of 11th Sept 2001 to the week of 11th Sept. 2008 has seen the end of US 'credit' in the wider financial or economic sense. The US will no longer be able to boast about its economic or financial model. It has suffered a severe loss of face in the eyes of the rest of the world. The BRICs especially will be looking to how they can remove their eggs from the American basket, connect with each other and diversify their interests.

                                            Since Canary Wharf has gone up in London, the 'Palladium' has been in the process of transferring back east, and to London, the financial centre of the Nova Roma, the EU. But that Palladium, as in Constantinople, is in fact darkened, buried. As yet, London and the UK show no more sign of producing a new economics than did NYC and the USA. The Sun mystery has not yet illumined a new ethical, Sun-lit economic life. It would appear that the powers-that-be, operating perhaps out of old karmic ties within their own souls, nevertheless feel this connection to bring the Palladium back to the formerly Trojan, then 'Greek' world of Asia Minor in the East (now represented by the EU). They hope for a reinvigorated, unified transatlantic Roman Empire, the focus of which has been shifted  east. Meanwhile, in the west, they will seek to create a new North American structure - the North American Union - and will look forward,  as did some of the Founding Fathers' generation in the USA, to extending this eventually to include the whole American continent. This huge western realm would supply the will force at the disposal of the head force of the new unified Empire, which is to be not in Rome, not in Frankfurt or Berlin, and certainly not in Paris, but in London, and I would guess they will seek to make the effective transfer of financial power clear by the time of the London Olympics in 2012.

                                            But London, despite its acknowledged cosmopolitan nature, is not a Sun city nor is Britain, despite its increasingly international mix of peoples, a Sun nation. On the contrary, their culture is ruled by the Moon and is obsessed with genetics. The figure of the seated Britannia in the 19th century with her trident and shield, helmet and lion is obviously based on the seated figure of Athena with her spear and shield, helmet and lion. But in the region of Troy and the not-so-distant island of Samothrace it was not the cult of Athena's Sun wisdom but rather, the cult of the Great (Earth) Mother Axerios, later called Cybele (a Moon Goddess) that predominated. Ancient figurines of this seated goddess dating back to 5000 or 6000 BC have been found in Turkey. So in the the myth the heavenly feminine Sun wisdom of Athena fell with the Palladium and later became associated with the Moon and the Earth. Actually, of course, the matriarchal and matrilineal cultures are older, but what we are looking at here is the fact that just as Athena herself was born fully armed from the head of Zeus, she signified the coming thinking power of humanity - the Sunlight of consciousness in the mind, whereas the older cults of the Great Mother and Cybele were cults of the instinctual life of the rhythmic system and abdominal organs, shrouded in the darkness of the will. This is above all what remains respected in Britain today rather than the life of mind, of philosophy and intellect. To this extent, Britain maintains an ancient instinctive culture that relates more to Moon and Earth than to Sun and heavens. The culture of Oxbridge* intellect is a mere Moon icing on this older, instinctive British Earth-Moon cake, which Steiner associated with that spirit within British culture that is analogous to the pre-Homeric Greek age. [*for non-Brits, Oxbridge means Oxford and Cambridge Universities]

                                            No more than the Byzantine Empire was destined to flourish is the new EU Empire destined to flourish, because like Byzantium, the EU is currently based on old dessicated thoughts, old economics, old politics, and the effort of the Vatican to reaffirm an old form of Christianity. The architect of the EU, Jean Monnet, may have said that he was trying to create a 'new Europe', but in fact he was merely replacing the Europe of the Treaty of Westphalia (1648), the Europe of autonomous nation states, with a Europe based on the late 18th century model of the American Hamiltonian federal republic - nothing 'new' in that, not for the 21st century anyway. During the first century of the existence of the USA, its constituent States were steadily pressured to relinquish ever more power to the centre, as the Jeffersonian notion of a loose confederation of agrarian, autonomous States was forced to give way to an industrialising, ever more centralised federal State on the Hamiltonian model. The justification for this was that only in this way could the American States defend themselves and compete against the European Powers (the challenge from 'the East'). Today the justification for a centralised federal European Union is that only by becoming an ever tightly bound and regulated Union will European countries be able to defend themselves and compete against the challenge of the East. But 'the East' today (Russia, India, China) has no new ideas; they merely apply modifications of the old western ideas. So until the West comes up with genuinely new economic and political thinking instead of endless calls for a 'New' World Order, the East will continue to be wary of the West, and conflict will indeed be latent. Europe needs to demonstrate to the Easterners a completely different way of doing business not just a stronger economic fortress equipped to fight the same old battles in the same old way.

                                            Nevertheless, the Western elite will seek to forge this 'new' Byzantine empire in the hope that this time, they can keep the unified empire in east and west together, and that the hispanic 'barbarians' at the gates of New Mexico and Texas will not overwhelm the western half of the empire as the germanic tribes overwhelmed the western Roman empire.  In the end, however, they will fail, just as the anti-christic forces failed c.666 with their efforts at Gondishapur. (Recall that we are only 10 years after the events of 1998 (3 x 666), which also saw huge economic turmoil.) After Justinian died in 565, the Byzantine empire entered into a long drawn-out contraction for almost 900 years, until in 1453 it had become just one single city and was then snuffed out by the rising power of the East, the Ottomans. For the Palladium, according to the legend, was destined not to remain in Constantinople but to move to 'the North', and Steiner also says 'the East'. This was what for centuries lay behind the Russian dream of gaining control of Constantinople; the Palladium could then be transferred to Moscow, which was called in Russia the 'Third Rome'. This has to do with the beginning of the 6th post-Atlantean epoch, the Slavic epoch or Age of Aquarius, in c.3573. Steiner indicated that this move to the north/east signified that the Palladium (i.e. the Sun-force and Sun-mystery within the human soul today) would need to be illumined by light from the West because the spiritual culture of the East had become decadent, and in this sense he called for the building of cultural bridges between central Europe and the Slavic world, between Europe and Asia.

                                            Rudolf Steiner (Dornach, 6th November, 1921 GA 208):
                                            "At all events the Palladium is waiting, expecting to be removed from the *darkening* influence shed upon it by Constantinople to that locality which, by its very nature, will bring it into *complete darkness*. Yes, the Palladium goes to the East, where the decadence of the ancient wisdom still survives but is passing into darkness. And in the further evolution of the world, just as the sun is the reflector of the light bestowed upon it from the universe, everything depends upon whether the Palladium-treasure is illumined by a wisdom born from the riches of the knowledge living in the West. The Palladium, the ancient heritage brought from Troy to Rome, from Rome to Constantinople, and which, as it is said, will be carried still farther into the darkness of the East - this Sun-treasure must wait until it is redeemed spiritually in the West, released from the dark shadows of a purely external knowledge of nature. Thus the task of the future is bound up with the holiest traditions of European development.

                                            The Sun-Mystery must be found again - otherwise the Palladium will vanish into the darkness of the East. It is wrongful today to utter a saying as untrue as Ex Oriente Lux. The light can no longer come from the East, for the East is in decadence. Nevertheless the East waits - for it will possess the sun-treasure, even though it be in darkness - it waits for the light of the West. But today men are groping in darkness, arranging conferences in the darkness, are looking expectantly towards - Washington! [a reference to the Washington conference of 1921 - Terry] Only those "Washingtons" that speak with the tones of the spiritual world - not conferences looking for the darkness that surrounds the Palladium, for an open door for trade in China - only those conferences will bring salvation which are conducted in the West in such a way that the Palladium can be kindled once again to light. For like a fluorescent body, the Palladium, in itself, is dark; if it is suffused with light, then it becomes radiant. And so it will be with the wisdom of the East: dark in itself, it will light up, will become fluorescent when it is permeated by the wisdom of the West, by the spiritual light of the West."

                                            This points to the need for the English-speaking countries to realise what has happened to their economic system that has existed  since the 18th century when its fundaments were laid - the founding of the Bank of England in 1694, the end of mercantilism, the publication of Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" in 1776, the legalisation of corporate personhood in the 19th century. Today a new economic and financial life is called for that is illumined by the  the palladian Sun within humanity, and that means above all, an economic life that is not focused on the adolescent desires and urges of the self-centred individual as in the 18th century - ME, my property, my desires and my desires for more property - a view that can only lead to the kind of grotesque casino finance we have seen in recent years, but rather, an economic life  that addresses the concerns and needs of all economic agents in society, which is all of us - producers, distributors and consumers -  and not just the concerns and needs of shareholders; an economic thinking that recognises the fraternal *interdependence* of economic life and organises that life not through control by the political State but through a truly 'enlightened' regulation by economic agents themselves. Rudolf Steiner pointed the way to this 90 years ago in his ideas for the threefold social organism. The western world was not prepared to listen to those ideas then, and continued with essentially the same economic, political and cultural thinking that had led to disaster in 1914-18. The inevitable result was 1939-45. In the hubristic unipolar years from 1989-2008 the elites of the West (US and UK especially) have learned nothing and have even felt their same old thinking to be justified. The only change they wished to make was to remove the powers of the nation states and subjugate the peoples of the world to globalist institutions dominated by western corporate interests. So while they may be seeking to use this financial crisis for their own ends in carrying the construction of their 'global architecture' a stage further, as Gordon Brown and his allies will advocate, and they may indeed appear to succeed in doing so for a while, the utter and literal bankruptcy of their economic thinking was revealed for all to see last week as plainly as was revealed the nullity of their defence of the American people 7 years ago, on 11th September 2001.

                                            ©Terry Boardman

                                          • Robert Mason
                                            ... I haven t followed this discussion, but about RP allegedly being an anthroposophist , you might want to take a look at this
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Apr 4, 2009
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                                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...> wrote:
                                              > ok, sure Robert Powell is an anthroposophist . . .

                                              I haven't followed this discussion, but about RP
                                              allegedly being an "anthroposophist", you might want
                                              to take a look at this
                                              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/38147>
                                              . . . and that's not even getting into his Tombergism.

                                              RM
                                            • DB
                                              I wonder if anyone else noticed that it was just after the big bang particle collider machine malfunctioned, just after that the global stock market began to
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Apr 6, 2009
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                                                I wonder if anyone else noticed that it was just after the big bang
                                                particle collider machine malfunctioned, just after that the global
                                                stock market began to tank. Tell me, who really knows what happens when
                                                such a mechanism breaks down - was there a surge? A distortion in space
                                                or time? People are now asking re: the stock market crash "where did
                                                all the money go?". I tentatively suggest that once again loads of
                                                money has disappeared into Switzerland. Think about it...

                                                DByron
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