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  • val2160
    Chimps craft ultimate fishing rod By Rebecca Morelle Science reporter, BBC News The chimps use their teeth to form the brush-tipped termite-fishing tool
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 4, 2009
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      Chimps craft ultimate fishing rod

      By Rebecca Morelle
      Science reporter, BBC News

      The chimps use their teeth to form the brush-tipped termite-fishing tool (Footage: Biology Letters/C Sanz/J Call/ D Morgan)

      Scientists believe they have solved the mystery of why some chimpanzees are so good at catching termites.

      A team working in the Republic of Congo discovered that the chimps are crafting brush-tipped "fishing rods" to scoop the insects out of their nests.

      They filmed the wild primates using their teeth to fashion the tools.

      Writing in the Royal Society journal Biology Letters, the researchers said the probes' frayed ends helped the chimpanzees to collect more termites.

      Lead researcher Crickette Sanz, from the Max Planck Institute of Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, said: "They have invented a way to improve their termite-fishing technique."

      Surveillance techniques

      Previous studies have suggested that wild chimpanzees use brush-tipped tools to fish for termites.

      Termites on tool (Royal Society)
      The chimps seem to understand the function of the tool and its importance in gathering termites
      Crickette Sanz

      But until now it has been unclear whether this was a specially crafted design feature or whether the frayed edges were a by-product of repeated tool use.

      Using remote cameras to film the chimps as they sought out their insect snacks, the team was able to find an answer.

      Dr Sanz told the BBC: "We found that in the Goualougo Triangle in the Republic of Congo, the chimpanzees were modifying their termite-fishing tools with a special brush tip."

      To make their rods, the chimps first picked some stems from the Marantaceae plant and plucked off the leaves.

      "They then pulled the herb stems through their teeth, which were partially closed, to make the brush and they also attended to the brush by sometimes pulling apart the fibres to make them better at gathering the termites," Dr Sanz added.

      Learned skill

      Further research revealed that a stem with a frayed tip collected 10 times more termites than a pointed probe.

      Marantaceae plant
      The chimps create the rods from plant stems

      Dr Sanz said: "The chimps seem to understand the function of the tool and its importance in gathering termites."

      So far, the team have only found this behaviour in chimps in the Goualougo Triangle.

      The apparent absence of this in populations in eastern and western Africa suggests that it is not an innate skill found in all chimpanzees.

      Instead it seems that the Goualougo primates are learning the crafting techniques from other chimps.

      The researchers say they now want to find out if chimps in this region are creating any other kinds of tools.

      Dr Sanz said: "Large areas of central Africa have been largely unstudied and so there are many populations that could have examples of complex tool use that we just do not know about."

      However, she added that further research might be hampered as the species was under threat.

      "Just as we are learning about these exciting new complex tool behaviours, the chimps that are showing us these behaviours are under danger from logging, poaching and Ebola," she explained.

      "There is a lot we need to do to conserve the chimps in the Congo Basin."

      Dr Sanz worked on the paper with Josep Call, also from the Max Planck Institute of Evolutionary Anthropology, and David Morgan from the Wildlife Conservation Society and Chicago's Lincoln Park Zoo.


      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7922120.stm

    • val2160
      ... http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FallDarkness/19171026p01.html The events of the present time have been foreseen by the initiates of all nations.
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <coolvibes@...> wrote:
        >
        > Frankly, who cares what "God's Rottweiler" does, says or thinks about
        > anything?
        >
        > Tarjei

        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FallDarkness/19171026p01.html

        The events of the present time have been foreseen by the initiates of all nations. They were foreseen and forecast, and it was said that a highly reactionary mood would bubble up from the blood and people would believe it to be highly idealistic. We must be able to observe on the large scale, as in small things; we must not allow ourselves to be deflected by the opinions and phrases one hears in the world today. We have to be able to rise a little above ourselves to understand the signs of the times. Yes, you may choose the other road and continue in your blood-prejudices; you will then join the streams which lead downwards. These are coming. You need to know how to be watchful where they are concerned and oppose them with elements which follow the upward trend. The downward trend comes of its own accord.

        We must have a feeling for life on the upward and life on the downward trend. Do not fall prey to the foolish inclination to escape from the downward trend, saying, `I will have nothing to do with Lucifer, nor with Ahriman.' I have often censured this foolish inclination, for we must certainly take account of the Spirits which serve the great cosmic scheme of things. Our failure to do so, assuming an attitude where they remain outside our conscious awareness, make them all the more powerful. We shall only be able to judge human affairs if we are able to take a broader view of the impulses of life in the ascendant and also in the descendant. It is important, however, to keep clear of sympathies and antipathies.

        Two streams have arisen in modern science; one of these I have called Goetheanism, the other Darwinism. If you study everything I have written, from the very beginning, you will see that I have never failed to recognize the profound significance of Darwinism. Some people were foolish enough to think I had fallen under the spell of materialism, and so on, when I wrote anything in favour of Darwin. We know, of course, that this was not from conviction, but had quite different reasons; and the people who say such things only need to think about it and they will know better than anyone else that they are not true. But if you really study everything I have written you will see that I have always done justice to Darwinism, but have done so by contrasting it with Goetheanism, the view of the evolution of life. I have always sought to see such things as the theory of descent in the Darwinian sense on the one hand and the Goethean on the other, and I have done so because Goetheanism presents the ascending line, with organic evolution raised above mere physical existence.

        I have often referred to the conversation between Goethe and Schiller. Note 1 ] Goethe drew a diagram of his archetypal plant and Schiller said, `That is not empiricism — learning from experience — it is an idea.' Goethe's reply was: `In that case I have my idea in front of my eyes!' Note 2 ] For he saw the spiritual element in everything. Goethe thus initiated a theory of evolution which holds the potential for elevation to the highest spheres, for being applied to soul and spirit. Goethe may only have made a start with organic evolution in his theory of metamorphosis, but we have the evolution of the spirit to which humanity must attain from this fifth post-Atlantean age onwards — for human beings are becoming more inward, as I have shown. Goetheanism can have a great future, for the whole of anthroposophy is on those lines. Darwinism considers physical evolution from the physical side: external impulses, struggle for survival, selection, and so on, and in this way outlines an evolution which is dying down — everything you can discover about organic life if you give yourself up to impulses which came up in earlier times. To understand Darwin, one merely has to make a synthesis of all the laws discovered in the past. To understand Goethe, one has to rise above this to laws which are ever new in earth existence. Both are necessary. It is not Darwinism which is the problem, nor Goetheanism, but the fact that people want to follow one or the other rather than one and the other. This is what really matters.


      • val2160
        ... about ... http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FallDarkness/19170929p01.html Let us remember that the idea of the state as we know it today has been
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" <wdenval@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
          > coolvibes@ wrote:
          > >
          > > Frankly, who cares what "God's Rottweiler" does, says or thinks
          about
          > > anything?
          > >
          > > Tarjei

          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FallDarkness/19170929p01.html

          Let us remember that the idea of the state as we know it today has
          been dawning since the sixteenth century. In some parts of the world
          peculiar people known as `historians' are speaking of states
          as something which have existed for I do not know how long. But they
          know little about real history. The present-day idea of a state is
          no more than four or five hundred years old and something entirely
          different existed in earlier times. It is important to know this and
          be really clear about it. The priestly element, which is to be
          found in Rome, is indeed older than our modern states. It had its
          justification in its own day, when it brought about many things in
          the world. I have tried to find out if people are asking themselves
          the question: What does it really mean that the modern structures
          which have developed over four or five centuries cannot find a way
          of achieving order out of their own resources, and look back to the
          old priestly element as something to be discussed in the way people
          generally discuss things today?

          It would interest me to know if anyone faced with the question as to
          whether it is a good idea to skate on ice when it is only one
          millimetre thick would actually answer in the affirmative. Relative
          to what we are really dealing with, the concepts on which people
          base their opinions when a priestly element brings impulses into
          modern life today are like a one- millimetre layer of ice covering
          the water. The things people write and say today are like someone
          skating on ice that is not more than one millimetre in thickness. No
          one is trying to understand what is happening, no one is prepared to
          see that what matters is not to take a document and look at the
          statements it contains, but to know that a statement can mean
          something totally different, depending on the source from which it
          comes.

          Everywhere today we are faced with the need to warn people in all
          seriousness to look to the origins, to see how things are related,
          to look for realities and not to the way things look on the surface.
          Surely it cannot be that difficult for anyone to admit: I see the
          way things are, but I do not yet understand them and therefore I
          will not say anything to interfere. Considering the incredibly
          superficial level of education, it is not at all surprising when
          people are able to understand and have an opinion on everything.
          People find it really difficult to admit that they cannot judge an
          issue and need to get a basis for their judgement before they give
          an opinion. In fact, it hardly ever comes to their minds that one
          has to have a basis which to form an opinion.
        • write3chairs
          ... What more is there to say than, Yes. It is amusing that they want to bat the idea around. What exists except creative evolution? Jennifer
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 6, 2009
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" wrote:

            > Frankly, who cares what "God's Rottweiler" does, says or thinks about
            > anything?
            >
            > Tarjei
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" wrote:
            > >
            > > Vatican hosts Darwin conference
            > > By David Willey
            > > BBC News, Rome
            > > [0]
            > > [Pope Benedict XVI and clergy in Rome (25/01/2009)] The
            > Catholic
            > > Church never condemned Darwin
            > > The Vatican is sponsoring a five day conference to mark the 150th
            > > anniversary of the publication of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species.
            > >
            > > The subject is the compatibility of evolution and creation.

            What more is there to say than, "Yes." It is amusing that they
            want to bat the idea around. What exists except creative evolution?

            Jennifer

            > > It is one of two separate international academic conferences being
            > > sponsored by the Vatican this year.
            > >
            > > They aim to re-examine the work of scientific thinkers whose
            > > revolutionary ideas challenged religious belief: Galileo and Charles
            > > Darwin.
            > >
            > > Scientists, philosophers and theologians from around the world are
            > > gathering at the prestigious Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome
            > to
            > > discuss the compatibility of Darwin's theory of evolution and Catholic
            > > teaching.
            > >
            > > Christian churches were long hostile to Darwin because his theory
            > > conflicted with the literal biblical account of creation.
            > >
            > > But the Catholic Church never condemned Darwin, as it condemned and
            > > silenced Galileo.
            > >
            > > Pope John Paul II said that evolution was "more than a hypothesis".
            > >
            > >
            > > [0]
            > > [0] The design of organisms is not what would be expected from an
            > > intelligent engineer [right]
            > > Prof Francisco Ayala
            > > Yet as recently as 2006 a leading Catholic Cardinal, Christoff
            > > Schoenborn, of Vienna, a former student and friend of Pope Benedict
            > XVI
            > > caused controversy by saying that Darwin's theory of natural selection
            > > was incompatible with Christian belief.
            > >
            > > A leading American scholar of biology, Prof Francisco Ayala, plans to
            > > tell the conference that the so-called theory of intelligent design,
            > > proposed by Creationists, is flawed.
            > >
            > > "The design of organisms is not what would be expected from an
            > > intelligent engineer, but imperfect and worse," he said.
            > >
            > > "Defects, dysfunctions, oddities, waste and cruelty pervade the living
            > > world".
            > >
            >
          • Brad Martin
            What exists except creative evolution? ... Two seminal books on creative evolution are Order out of Chaos by the Nobel winnder, Ilya Prigogine.
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 7, 2009
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              What exists except creative evolution?
              > Jennifer

              Two seminal books on "creative evolution" are "Order out of Chaos" by the Nobel winnder, Ilya Prigogine.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Prigogine
              and, "Self Organizing Universe: Scientific and Human Implications of the Emerging Paradigm of Evolution" Erich Jantsch
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Jantsch

              An excellent, more popular, treatment is Fritjof Capra's "Web of Life"
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritjof_Capra

              These are the minds to study in order to more cogently expand upon the work of Rudolf Steiner. The science of 'creative evolution' is the second order cybernetics of systems science; the transpersonal/spiritual psychology.
              http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/SECORCYB.html

              Brad
            • write3chairs
              ... the Nobel winnder, Ilya Prigogine. ... the Emerging Paradigm of Evolution Erich Jantsch ... work of Rudolf Steiner. The science of creative evolution is
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 7, 2009
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                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Brad Martin" wrote:

                > What exists except creative evolution?
                > > Jennifer
                >
                > Two seminal books on "creative evolution" are "Order out of Chaos" by the Nobel winnder, Ilya Prigogine.
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Prigogine
                > and, "Self Organizing Universe: Scientific and Human Implications of the Emerging Paradigm of Evolution" Erich Jantsch
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Jantsch
                >
                > An excellent, more popular, treatment is Fritjof Capra's "Web of Life"
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritjof_Capra
                >
                > These are the minds to study in order to more cogently expand upon the work of Rudolf Steiner. The science of 'creative evolution' is the second order cybernetics of systems science; the transpersonal/spiritual psychology.
                > http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/SECORCYB.html
                >
                > Brad

                Thank you for these titles, Brad! And among those cybernetics
                guys, I especially like this one. (Copied from the link you gave.)

                Gregory Bateson
                anthropologist; developed double bind theory, and looked at parallels between mind and natural evolution. Further info: biography - ASC biography - the Tangled Web - Ecology of Mind page - < [Find Books] - [Find in Google]

              • val2160
                http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8357523/Pope-Jews-not- to-blame-for-death-of-Christ.html
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 4, 2011
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                  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8357523/Pope-Jews-not-to-blame-for-death-of-Christ.html

                  The Pope has exonerated the Jewish people for the death of Christ, insisting that they must not be collectively blamed for his death.

                  Pope: Jews not to blame for death of Christ
                   

                • val2160
                  [Pope Benedict XVI says only a few temple leaders and supporters were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.] Pope Benedict XVI says only a few temple
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 4, 2011
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                    Pope Benedict XVI says only a few temple leaders and supporters were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.

                    Pope Benedict XVI says only a few temple leaders and supporters were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.

                    http://www.freep.com/article/20110303/NEWS07/103030560/1008/NEWS06/Pope-s-book-says-Jewish-people-were-not-responsible-Jesus-crucifixion?odyssey=mod_sectionstories

                  • Charlotte Cowell
                    Gosh, this strikes me as both incredibly bizarre and weirdly pertinent, but then I ve never been one of those Christians that held a grudge against Jews for
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 4, 2011
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                      Gosh, this strikes me as both incredibly bizarre and weirdly pertinent, but then I've never been one of those Christians that held a grudge against Jews for any reason, far from it.....perhaps he's hoping this will give the rest a chance to feel the same?

                      Strange times

                      Cx

                      --- On Fri, 4/3/11, val2160 <wdenval@...> wrote:

                      From: val2160 <wdenval@...>
                      Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Today's News
                      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 16:17

                       

                      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8357523/Pope-Jews-not-to-blame-for-death-of-Christ.html

                      The Pope has exonerated the Jewish people for the death of Christ, insisting that they must not be collectively blamed for his death.

                      Pope: Jews not to blame for death of Christ
                       


                    • DB
                      well that only took 1,978 years to figure out.... DB
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 4, 2011
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                        well that only took 1,978  years to figure out....

                        DB
                         

                        The Pope has exonerated the Jewish people for the death of Christ, insisting that they must not be collectively blamed for his death.


                        _,_._,___
                      • Kim Graae Munch
                        And seen from an esoteric view, most have been incarnated otherwere and have found Christ there. ... From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 5, 2011
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                          Message
                          And seen from an esoteric view, most have been incarnated otherwere and have found Christ there.
                           
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DB
                          Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 10:20 PM
                          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Today's News

                           

                          well that only took 1,978  years to figure out....

                          DB

                           

                          The Pope has exonerated the Jewish people for the death of Christ, insisting that they must not be collectively blamed for his death.


                          _,_._,___

                        • fs13997
                          But, of course, the Romans were not responsible! In fact, Pilate tried as hard as he could - caring much more about his own life - not to proceed as the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 5, 2011
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                            But, of course, the Romans were not responsible! In fact, Pilate tried as hard as he could - caring much more about his own life - not to proceed as the Sinhedrin was pushing him to do. And the fact the the crowd chose a delinquent, simply shows how easily the crowds can be manipulated and how irrelevant is the crowd's choice. Knowledge has always been the pertinent domain of the most advanced individualities as well as access to such knowledge is restricted to those few that are able to overcome the difficult esoteric training and the related trials.
                            Steiner explained that the matter related to the Gods, not to men. It was a godly matter (not that human beings are not Gods) and had to resolved in the arena of the Gods. Humans were basically spectators. In the end, even Judas was forgiven, according to Maitre Philippe, who claimed to have been one of the closest disciples himself.
                            The task for all humans will be to be able to experience the event of the appearance in the etheric, for there is no way that evolution may proceed without the connection with the highest of all the Gods.
                            So, what the Pope says is totally irrelevant, because it should have an esoteric support. Otherwise is not worth more that any other commercial or advertisement. This is what distinguishes the esoteric from the exoteric, i.e. the Church, Lady Gaga, or Wall Street.

                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Charlotte Cowell <charlottecowell@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Gosh, this strikes me as both incredibly bizarre and weirdly pertinent, but then I've never been one of those Christians that held a grudge against Jews for any reason, far from it.....perhaps he's hoping this will give the rest a chance to feel the same?
                            >
                            > Strange times
                            >
                            > Cx
                            >
                            > --- On Fri, 4/3/11, val2160 <wdenval@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: val2160 <wdenval@...>
                            > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Today's News
                            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 16:17
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8357523/Pope-Jews-not-to-blame-for-death-of-Christ.html
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The Pope has exonerated the Jewish people for the death of Christ, insisting that they must not be collectively blamed for his death.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                          • ted.wrinch
                            Over in the Hole, Tom s response to that is: Now who are you going to blame, Ted Wrinch . As you know Tom, my position from when I first posted to the Hole on
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 5, 2011
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                              Over in the Hole, Tom's response to that is: 'Now who are you going to blame, Ted Wrinch'. As you know Tom, my position from when I first posted to the Hole on this topic, over two years ago, has been the same as the position just attributed to the Pope - it's not the Jews. In fact I said then (and several times subsequently, to refute the prof's slurs) that if anyone was to blame we all were. How did you miss that, Tom? Are you perhaps enjoying a bit of duplicity, like the prof? But my position, and it seems that of the the Pope, is the opposite of the prof's, who holds that the indictment of Christ in the New Testament is an anti-Semitic forgery. But the Hole is also the Toilet and of course we expect the prof to chime in with: 'Ted can still reliably blame me, as the personification of the Christ-killing…". Hard to believe these are the words of a professor responsible for teaching the young…But I don't care about the prof's 'Christ-killing…', and instead note that he is still the same liar and spirit scoffer that he was when I first posted to the Toilet.

                              T.

                              Ted Wrinch

                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" <wdenval@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > [Pope Benedict XVI says only a few temple leaders and supporters were
                              > responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.]
                              > Pope Benedict XVI says only a few temple leaders and supporters were
                              > responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.
                              >
                            • val2160
                              ... blame, Ted Wrinch . As you know Tom, my position from when I first posted to the Hole on this topic, over two years ago, has been the same as the position
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 6, 2011
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                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                                <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Over in the Hole, Tom's response to that is: 'Now who are you going to
                                blame, Ted Wrinch'. As you know Tom, my position from when I first
                                posted to the Hole on this topic, over two years ago, has been the same
                                as the position just attributed to the Pope - it's not the Jews. In fact
                                I said then (and several times subsequently, to refute the prof's slurs)
                                that if anyone was to blame we all were. How did you miss that, Tom? Are
                                you perhaps enjoying a bit of duplicity, like the prof? But my position,
                                and it seems that of the the Pope, is the opposite of the prof's, who
                                holds that the indictment of Christ in the New Testament is an
                                anti-Semitic forgery. But the Hole is also the Toilet and of course we
                                expect the prof to chime in with: 'Ted can still reliably blame me, as
                                the personification of the Christ-killing…". Hard to believe these
                                are the words of a professor responsible for teaching the young…But
                                I don't care about the prof's 'Christ-killing…', and instead note
                                that he is still the same liar and spirit scoffer that he was when I
                                first posted to the Toilet.
                                >
                                > T.
                                >
                                > Ted Wrinch


                                It's an interesting state of affairs, I'd say, when the Pope tells us
                                that the Jewish people's presence at the crucifixion does not qualify
                                as an historical fact and the Professor tells us that you may consider
                                him as the personification of Christ. Amen Brother.-Val


                                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" wdenval@
                                wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Pope Benedict XVI says only a few temple leaders and supporters
                                were
                                > > responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.]
                                > > Pope Benedict XVI says only a few temple leaders and supporters were
                                > > responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.
                                > >
                                >
                              • Frank Thomas Smith
                                ... A couple of thousands of years from now a pope will write a book absolving the Mexican drug cartels of their sins because during those strange times they
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 7, 2011
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                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Charlotte Cowell <charlottecowell@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Gosh, this strikes me as both incredibly bizarre and weirdly pertinent, but then I've never been one of those Christians that held a grudge against Jews for any reason, far from it.....perhaps he's hoping this will give the rest a chance to feel the same?
                                  >
                                  > Strange times
                                  >
                                  > Cx
                                  >

                                  A couple of thousands of years from now a pope will write a book absolving the Mexican drug cartels of their sins because during those "strange times" they rescued the Church---financially.
                                  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/07/world/americas/07church.html?_r=1&hp
                                  Frank




                                  > --- On Fri, 4/3/11, val2160 <wdenval@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: val2160 <wdenval@...>
                                  > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Today's News
                                  > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 16:17
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8357523/Pope-Jews-not-to-blame-for-death-of-Christ.html
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The Pope has exonerated the Jewish people for the death of Christ, insisting that they must not be collectively blamed for his death.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Charlotte Cowell
                                  well I m not quite so cynical about the Pope as a lot of people on here seem to be - pope bashing seems to be the trend of the day and has little to do with
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 7, 2011
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                                    well I'm not quite so cynical about the Pope as a lot of people on here seem to be - pope bashing seems to be the trend of the day and has little to do with true spirituality - but I do understand why that sentiment has arisen. Benedict I think has more charisma than he is given credit for, I changed my opinion of him after seeing him in person, and I actually think that any religious orthodox organisation has its 'issues', let's say, although they also serve useful social functions.

                                    You can pick any exoteric denomination, catholic protestant, Judaic, Islamic - even anthroposophic as some members here recently pointed out - and you can find both abuses and - on the other hand - signs of the divine presence. Jerusalem itself is the same - on one level it's a harsh, commercialised city of traders that's' absolutely rife with religious intolerance (hatred, even) and holier-than-thou-ness, and yet one cannot enter the city without finding one's self being a pilgrim and ultimately becoming more fully conscious of the glory of God. As to whether all roads lead to Rome, I think that is indeed debatable, I would rather see a genuine fusion between the churches of Peter and John, why do any Christians argue amongst themselves when it is such anathema to the spirit and word of the Lord?

                                    One's personal relationship with Christ is paramount IMO but churches/temples and the group environment can provide solace and certainly the buildings themselves do.

                                    --- On Mon, 7/3/11, Frank Thomas Smith <fts.trasla@...> wrote:

                                    From: Frank Thomas Smith <fts.trasla@...>
                                    Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Today's News
                                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, 7 March, 2011, 13:07

                                     



                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Charlotte Cowell <charlottecowell@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Gosh, this strikes me as both incredibly bizarre and weirdly pertinent, but then I've never been one of those Christians that held a grudge against Jews for any reason, far from it.....perhaps he's hoping this will give the rest a chance to feel the same?
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                                    > Strange times
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                                    > Cx
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                                    A couple of thousands of years from now a pope will write a book absolving the Mexican drug cartels of their sins because during those "strange times" they rescued the Church---financially.
                                    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/07/world/americas/07church.html?_r=1&hp
                                    Frank

                                    > --- On Fri, 4/3/11, val2160 <wdenval@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: val2160 <wdenval@...>
                                    > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Today's News
                                    > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 16:17
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                                    > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8357523/Pope-Jews-not-to-blame-for-death-of-Christ.html
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                                    > The Pope has exonerated the Jewish people for the death of Christ, insisting that they must not be collectively blamed for his death.
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                                  • val2160
                                    ... and have ... Physical presence at the crucifixion would influence one s ability to find Christ in future incarnations.-Val ... insisting
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 7, 2011
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                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Graae Munch"
                                      <kimgm@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > And seen from an esoteric view, most have been incarnated otherwere
                                      and have
                                      > found Christ there.


                                      Physical presence at the crucifixion would influence one's ability to
                                      find Christ in future incarnations.-Val


                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DB
                                      > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 10:20 PM
                                      > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Today's News
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                                      > well that only took 1,978 years to figure out....
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                                      > DB
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                                      > The Pope has exonerated the Jewish people for the death of Christ,
                                      insisting
                                      > that they must not be collectively blamed for his death.
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                                      > _,_._,___
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