Re: The Twelve around Christ
- Hi Ottmar,
I have never been part of an official esoteric organization, and I have never had something like a Guru. Everything I have read or heard i have compared with other belief systems or religious texts, and if something differs to much, I have to put it on standby, until other evidence may change the case. And that includes Rudolf Steiner! But my research in many, both old and new, esoterica had made me see Steiner as the most consistent of my sources. So when I make a thesis I first see what Steiner has about it, and as Steiner has made his books and speeches in such a way that you have to think to understand what he writes, you need other sources to build bridges between his different works. I will give a lot of examples of valid questions where Michaelic/Goethean thinking is paramount and inclusion of other material will help understanding, and I don't understand is not answered by Anthos yet, except maybe a few. The first is answered by Koulias.
Steiner puts forward the question who the new Michael is, but there are many more questions than that: Who is the old Michael, who is Skythianos, Zarathustra, Gabriel, Ahriman, Lucifer, Jahve, Isis, Sophia, and other of the preferred names Steiner uses? Why is Gabriel called the messenger of God in the bible? What about the relation of the Elemental beings in relation to our development cycle, and their relation to Christ? What about the Ahrimanic Spirits? What about the Demiurge and the Æons and their relations to the hierarchies from the Thrones downto the Elemental of the third kind? Why are each new Æon lower in the hierarchy than the previous? When Steiner says that the planets from Earth and inward are within man, and the planets from Mars and out until Saturn are outside man, what does he mean by that? What is the new Cosmic Principle? What's behind Adam one and Adam two? Why does the Angels dessert man, as described in Dotties post (I don't know), and whats behind the statement that Adam one and the Nathan Soul is sistersouls (I don't know). What about our stragglers in the animal, and Plant kingdom (I am not fully sure)? And so forth.
I think it's a long list of good questions, and I have read Steiner in many years before I really saw them as real questions, and not just something to skip over because I thought it was not essential to understand what I read.
As an example of using external sources:
I had thought much about Steiners mentioning of Skythianos and Zarathustra as Great Sun Initiated beings. Well, there has been three great initiations on Earth before the birth of Christ, the Three Deeds of Christ. There was an initiation about the end of Atlantis, which Steiner describes through Apollon and Orpheus. In the bible there is mentioned an initiation at that time: Abrahams initiation by Melchisedek. In WikiPedidia under Abraham it is mentioned that tradition says that Zarathustra and Abraham is the same. Steiner writes about Geology and Israel after Abraham, and Zarathustra and his work in the development and preparation of the physical body for the descent of Christ. The previous Deed of Christ was around the start of Atlantis, and in Enochs books there is a description of the initiation of Enoch. Enoch was set before the face of God. Michael was the Face of God. Together with Steiners description of the Deeds of Christ, we have a starting point for something really interesting. From Theosophy we have the four kumares and we have the Demiurge and the three Æons, and it is all strings in a carpet.
I have read other Anthroposophic Authors, but they are usually only good for giving references to unpublished Steiner quotes, not for bringing something new and understandable.
One of the few authors who elaborates on Steiner and gives something extra is Emil Bock. He has witten 25 socalled unpublished lectures about the Gospels (I have a Danish version.) In chapter 17 he talks about the new Æon (New Cosmic Principle?). In Chapter 24 he talks about the Nathanic Jesus. Worth reading, as Steiner only vaguely describes the being. Many Anthros thinks it is a weak untouched spirit from before man split in two sexes. But it's much much more than that.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...> wrote:
> Hi Kim,
> I appreciate your intense study and that you try to include other
> authors and that you seek your own conclusions. It's part of my
> disappointment, that so few anthropops (as they are called on this
> list) know anything from outside anthro circles, books, studies. For
> example in the early 80s Rupert Sheldrake (you know the guy with the
> morphogenetic fields) gave a lengthy seminar in Stuttgart which I had
> the privilege to attend. I think that he opened one of many doors to
> the etheric sphere, something that should have been of great interest
> to the anthropops, too and I expected a number of them in the German
> capital of anthropops to come, but there was not a single one. Years
> later, after there had been articles about Sheldrake in various anthro
> magazines, they flocked into his seminars, after he had been made
> known or shall I say after he had been given approval by the `big heads'.
> There is something similar with the Rosicrucian manifests from the 17
> th century, the Fama Fraternitatis, the Confessio Fraternitatis and
> especially the Alchymical Marriage of CRC. Rudolf Steiner wrote
> something on the last one, but it touches only a very very small
> fraction of that book. In fact imo the Alchymische Hochzeit is a
> mystery book, it contains more than the Green Serpent of Goethe,
> comparable only to the books of the bible, and perhaps the Comedia
> Divina, or my favourite, Faust. It leads into a further future, like
> the Revelation. Rudolf Steiner's From Jesus to Christ and Judith von
> Halle's first book touch upon the same themes. (Sure there are
> Stracke's and Hinze's books.) Many anthro authors speak of or write
> about the Rosicrucian stream, of CRC, but the fundamentals remain unknown.
> I send greetings 1200 km north to the kingdom of the Danes.
I ever find your posts, 5 years of experience now! I'd love to go, last time I was there they still had the towers, long time no apple.
--- In email@example.com, "eltrigal78" <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "sim1dmg" simonedim@ wrote:
> Thanks, Simone, I'll reply off-list or you might not find it among all the occult stuff going on around here at the moment. I'm off to the Big Apple on Wednesday. Wanna come?
> > --- In email@example.com, "eltrigal78"
> > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
> > >
> > > F: Hmmm. Brazil has it's own version:
> > > http://southerncrossreview.org/67/the-spell.htm