Re: The Twelve around Christ
- Hi Ottmar,
What I wrote in "The Twelve around Christ" was that I saw Rudolf Steiner in the Red Mantle/Stola and Christian Rosencreutz in the Blue Mantle/Stola (with references). If the one in the Red Stola is called Master Jesus, I have no objection, as long as he is one of the twelve.
Where we differ is that you see the Read Stola starting with Zarathustra and I see him starting with Seth/Solomon/Peter and I see the Meitreya/John/Elisha/Hiram behind as the Bodhisattva for Christian Rosencreutz.
I have had some of the same problems as you have concerning the old and new worldorder. Once I found out that the story about Elijah and Elisha was the change from the old Bodhisattva to the new, a lot of things became clear. The Temple Legend is crusial in understanding the shift between the sons of Seth and the sons of Cain, but the change is first fully implemented after Golgatha as desribed last in John.
All of the above is in "The Twelve around Christ".
I understand your hesitation, but what we write is only interesting to those who understand what we write, I hope.
About the 10 who was initiated. I can't find the exact place where I read it, but in the "Anthroposophie Die Geisteswissenschaft Rudolf Steiners" page 269, if have found the following:
Christian Rosenkreuz ging in der ersten Hälfte des 15. Jahrhunderts nach demIt's not as clear as the one I read, but better than nothing. We can of course discuss why he says "not over 10" if it's not over 9.
Orient, um den Ausgleich zu finden zwischen der Initiation des Ostens und jener des
Westens. 262.15 Ehe die damalige Inkarnation des Christian Rosenkreuz zu Ende gegangen war, hatte er eine Anzahl von Persönlichkeiten die kaum die Zahl 10 überstieg in den Gegenstand, in den er eingeweiht worden war, auch eingeweiht, soweit dies mit europäischen Menschen damals möglich war. Diese kleine Bruderschaft,
die sich die Bruderschaft der Rosenkreuzer Fraternitas rosae crucis nannte, trug
durch eine größere, mehr äußerliche Bruderschaft einen gewissen Mythus in die
Welt hinaus (siehe: Kain und Abel).
From Die Tempellegende und die goldene Legende als symbolischer
Ausdruck vergangener und zukünftiger Entwickelungsgeheimnisse
des Menschen. (1904/06) page 58
if I have understood the referencing system right.
But I still think that it is a god explanation:
In the Christian Rosencreutz incarnation, he initiated 10 others, that is the rest of the twelve except himself and Judas!Kind Regards,
--- In email@example.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...> wrote:
> Hi Kim
> I don't see a fight or quarrel between us, rather a misunderstanding.
> You reminded me to use `Michaelic thinking'. I have to guess what you
> mean by this, however I didn't want to write about my deliberations,
> but rather refer to `what the doctor said'. I studied the question of
> the two masters in front of the cross and altar (or sarcophag) 25
> years ago, when I first got hold of the book by Kirchner-Bockholt, at
> a time when this question and the question of relationship between
> the `old' Christian and the Rosicrucian path were highly virulent for
> me. That cost me `many sleepless nights', until it all formed an inner
> picture for me and I found out my personal relationship to it. The
> question of MJ and CRC has never left me since then, it's part of my
> life, but not in the sense that I can quote books and pages easily. As
> I said it has all melted into my life, it isn't an object of intense
> study anymore and I have never studied it to be able to give lectures
> on it. However the personal transformations of the subjects are very
> personal, intimate, difficult to communicate, and certainly not for a
> public list (at least that's my conviction and attitude).
> It is your right to quote other esoterici, have your own opinion on it
> and I didn't claim that Rudolf Steiner is per se without error. So
> it's no problem for me to say: we agree that we disagree on some matters.
> So let me sum up what I found in Rudolf Steiner's writings and what I
> personally am convinced of, too:
> 1 There are 2 different masters, serving Christ, MJ and CRC (and
> Rudolf Steiner repeated this to Ita Wegman in 1923 or 24). Of course
> they work hand in hand, are one in Christ just like `we all' are one
> in Christ. The lower the field of work or activity, the more different
> their works are, the higher their field of work, like in devachan, the
> closer they come to each other. Cut
> 2 MJ is the older individuality, that's clear when you trace the two
> back to the Genesis. From here on things become controversial and I
> think it begins to become speculative, namely the exact relationship
> and meaning of `masters', bodhisattvas, buddhas
> When Rudolf Steiner wrote down for Ita Wegman about his `standing for'
> MJ it is in my opinion not necessarily a 1:1 identity. It is not
> possible to fit Jesus into the line of incarnations which Rudolf
> Steiner gave to Ita Wegman (mind the adressee!) from
> Eabani-Kratylos-Aristoteles-Schionatulander-Thomas-Rudolf Steiner.
> Again, it is not possible just to add or insert Jesus between
> Aristoteles and Schionatulander. There remains an open question, a
> mystery or riddle, which was dealt with by only a few
> anthroposophists. However it is not difficult to see where Rudolf
> Steiner worked hard to give the work of Aristoteles and Thomas a
> `Christian turn' (sorry my English leaves me, even in German it is
> difficult to express myself), to take away or make good the shadows of
> Aristoteles' and Thomas' work.
> I hesitated to post this, because it's very personal, because of the
> occult or incarnations content and it seems to be of interest only for
> very few members of this list
> Kind regards Ottmar
> Kim: By the way, in Christian Rosencreutz incarnation with that name,
> he and Christ initiated 10 others, that is the rest of the twelve
> except himself and Judas, no other!
> Ottmar: You mean in his incarnation from 1378 to 1484, not the one in
> the 13 th century? In the earlier one, there was the circle of 12
> around him. Where do you get the 10 disciples of CRC from? Is that
> Rudlf Steiner (I have never read this anywhere), is it another writer
> or is it your occult research? In the Fama Fraternitatis from 1614,
> you find 9 brothers around CRC, 8 of whom given with initiales. So
> there are only nine brothers, if you take that hint literally.
I ever find your posts, 5 years of experience now! I'd love to go, last time I was there they still had the towers, long time no apple.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "eltrigal78" <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
> --- In email@example.com, "sim1dmg" simonedim@ wrote:
> Thanks, Simone, I'll reply off-list or you might not find it among all the occult stuff going on around here at the moment. I'm off to the Big Apple on Wednesday. Wanna come?
> > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "eltrigal78"
> > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
> > >
> > > F: Hmmm. Brazil has it's own version:
> > > http://southerncrossreview.org/67/the-spell.htm