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Re: Goethe, Eliphas Levi and the seventh seal of the apocalypse

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  • ottmar12
    Hi Kim, here are a few more ideas about Goethe. When we look at Goethe s work we can discover different hints to various karmic `layers . -The `greek layer
    Message 1 of 511 , Jan 6, 2009
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      Hi Kim,

      here are a few more ideas about Goethe. When we look at Goethe's work
      we can discover different hints to various karmic `layers'.
      -The `greek layer' can be seen in his works that are filled with fully
      modelled, nearly sculptured figures, picture-like sensual images,
      perfect in a beautiful form. There is also his longing for the
      southern light, which you can find in Hölderlin as well.
      -Think of his hymnus to Isis. Goethe was initiated into Egyptian !
      mysteries (GA 144, 6 Feb 1913)
      -In his old age there was this layer of old Rome, he had his codex of
      classical art, was unable to see the new times in the young.
      -Then there are the middle ages, think of the Götz and the early
      Faust, his adoration of the works from the gothic period.
      -There is the Renaissance Goethe, West-East Divan etc.
      -The paracelsist Goethe, practising alchemy and kabbalah, the expert
      in magical works.
      -Rudolf Steiner stresses, that Goethe was inspired through rosecrucian
      ideas, but that Goethe was not a Rosecrucian in his Tagesbewusstsein,
      in his day consciousness, that Goethe was a subconscious initiate.
      (GA93 22 May 1907, GA 99 12 Jan 1919, GA 188)
      I wonder whether you speak German and whether you have a good anthro
      library at hand. I found 2 references to lectures which are not in my
      bookcase: Walter Cloos, Schicksalswirken in Goethes Lebenslauf and
      Alexander von Bernus, Goethes Urbegegnung (in the book Alchemie und
      Heilkunst, Nuernberg 1969)




      Rudolf Steiner , Eliphas Levis and the seventh seal

      For me it was interesting again to read this comparison of Goethe and
      Eliphas Levis, going through the spheres of Jupiter. Of course we know
      much about Steiner relating to Goethe, but little is known about his
      relationship to Eliphas Levi. (Most often Eliphas Levis is simply
      denounced as a left-hand occultist, slave of Rome and alike) Steiner
      somehow continued or fulfilled the work of Goethe and in a very
      special aspect that of Eliphas Levi. Sure you know the seven seals of
      the apocalypse, which are reproduced in different books. Few
      anthropops however know that the first 6 seals were given by Eliphas
      Levi (at least I couldn't find an earlier publication) and only the
      seventh seal was given by Rudolf Steiner. In Eliphas Levis print, the
      seventh seal is apresented as a book with 7 seals. Tragically, as
      often in anthroposophical matters, few anthropops know this or even
      care and what is worse, only the original drawning of Rudolf Steiner
      is complete (see GA 284), all later reproductions, based on Clara
      Rettich's drawing, are defective. At the center of the cubus, there
      must be a circle, an imaginative point, to which matter collapsed
      before it is projected to the heaven of stars; the turning point so to
      speak is missing! I told Hella Wiesberger in Dornach some 25 years
      ago, she wasn't interested. You see, Rudolf Steiner also finished a
      work done by Eliphas Levi (and you, Kim, make Rudolf Steiner happy,
      verify what I wrote and then correct your seventh seal in GA 104 or
      wherever J )
      Kind regards Ottmar




      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Ottmar,
      >
      > Of Skopas, Lysippos and Praxiteles I would choose Praxiteles as the one.
      > The Art of Praxiteles II
      >
      <http://books.google.com/books?id=T8iSrsQ6EogC&printsec=frontcover&hl=da\
      > &source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0> .
      >
      > I found these two documents:
      > GREEK SCULPTURE AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS
      > <http://www.library.umass.edu/benson/jbgsalt.html> A
      > Psycho-Historical Investigation, J. L. Benson, Amherst, Massachusetts:
      > University of Massachusetts Amherst Libraries,2000
      > And
      >
      > GREEK COLOR THEORY AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS
      > <http://www.library.umass.edu/benson/jbgcalt.html> A Cosmological
      > Interpretation,J. L. Benson, Amherst, Massachusetts: University of
      > Massachusetts, Amherst Libraries, 2000
      > The first referencing Greek Sculptors, and both referencing Steiner and
      > Goethe.
      >
      > You mention the Mexican incarnation, but that was another person which
      > was compared to Goethe's incarnation.
      >
      > Goethe has, I think, two incarnations as woman before his incarnation as
      > Goethe, if I read Steiner right.
      >
      > Steiner mentions that before the incarnation with the initiation, the
      > person goes through incarnations as Sculptor, Composer, Painter, and
      > Writer. Is that the right sequence and where has he written about it? It
      > could be a lead for the intervening incarnations.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Kim
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Kim,
      > > good that you addressed me by my name. I don't have the time to read
      > > all letters on this list, but I couldn't miss yours of course.
      > > I don't have the electronic version of the GA and the online search
      > > machine is still not working. I could look up in a big e
      > > encyclopedia, the print version is 6500 pages and the booklet of
      > > Wimbauer, I mentioned. There I found references to the GA and the page
      > > number, but they refer to pre 1985 German editions. This is what I
      > found:
      > > GA 144, page 74 G lived in Greece,a philosopher and a sculptor. (There
      > > are 3 great famous sculptors, Phidias, Praxiteles and Skopas. I don't
      > > know whether G was one of them, I have never studied this matter.)
      > > Steiner 144,72 There was most problably only 1 incarnation between the
      > > Greek and Goethe incarnation which I (RS) wasn't able to find.
      > > GA 239, Lecture 9 June 1924 at the very end, there RS speaks of
      > > several! incarnations between Old Greece and Goethe and also of a
      > > Mexican incarnation.
      > > Also GA 144 6 Feb 1913 and GA 236, 1 June 1924
      > > Of course Rudolf Steiner often spoke about Goethes Karma GA 172/41 and
      > > following GA 310,26 following
      > > I remember spending much time with Goethe's books as a very young man,
      > > especially his ' autobiography' Dichtung und Wahrheit, then Steiner's
      > > comments, but we mustn't forget, that Goehte was quite konservative,
      > > more an abelitic soul. See the contrast to Beethoven, when Goethe and
      > > Beethoven met the Kaiser when walking in the park. Typical! We can
      > > learn a lot by studying great individuals, from what they said and did
      > > and from their biographies. And it is enjoyable reading. G lived in
      > > apocalyptic times, French Revolution, he wanted to feel the breath of
      > > death when he attended the battle of Valmy, the encounter of Napoleon
      > > and Goethe etc. And we live in apocalyptic times, too.
      > > Tell me, tell us when you find out something about Goethe which is
      > > new, touching, important.
      > > Ottmar
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Ottmar,
      > > >
      > > > In GA 138 as seen in 'Platon <http://wiki.anthroposophie.net/Platon>
      > '
      > > > I have found the following (In german):
      > > > Nun habe ich ja schon vor einiger Zeit hier davon gesprochen,
      > daß,
      > > > als Plato noch lebte, nicht gerade in Platos Philosophenschule, aber
      > > > unter Platos Einfluß — ich habe es sogar schon vor
      > Jahrzehnten
      > > > erwähnt —, herangewachsen ist ein Künstler, nicht aus
      > > > platonischer Philosophie, aber aus platonischem Geiste heraus, der
      > dann,
      > > > nachdem er durch andere Inkarnationen gegangen ist, als Goethe
      > > > wiedergeboren worden ist, und der karmisch dasjenige, was aus den
      > > > früheren Inkarnationen, namentlich aber aus der Plato-Strömung
      > > > kam, in der Jupiter-Region umgewandelt hat, so daß es diejenige
      > Art
      > > > von Weisheit werden konnte, die eben bei Goethe alles durchdringt.
      > > > Which says that Goethe has incarnations between the two mentioned
      > > > incarnations.
      > > >
      > > > It don't say anything about his occupation, but you say that he was
      > a
      > > > Sculptor?
      > > >
      > > > Steiner mentions that the occupations in the incarnations before the
      > > > incarnation where the individual is initiated follows some rules,
      > ..,
      > > > sculptor,...., painter, and author. Do any of you know where Steiner
      > > > wrote about that?
      > > >
      > > > It is probable that Goethe incarnated about the same times and
      > > > localities as Plato.
      > > >
      > > > Happy New Year,
      > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
      > <ottmar12@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > On Goethe's incarnations
      > > > >
      > > > > Steiner talked on different occasions about Goethe's previous
      > > > > incarnations. A lot was written about Goethe, see for example
      > Herbert
      > > > > Wimbauer wrote in his small book `Goethe und die soziale Mission
      > > > > Mitteleuropas' http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm
      > > > > Goethe was initiated in the old Egypt Mysteries, see Goethe s Hym
      > to
      > > > > Isis RS, GA 144, 6 Feb. 1919
      > > > > Then Goethe was a great sculptor in old Greece, in a platonic
      > > > > atmosphere. GA 239, 9. June 1924
      > > > > RS said that he couldn't find any incarnations between old Greece
      > ang
      > > > > 18 th / 19 th century incarnation.
      > > > > These answers are too short of course, to me it feels I gave a
      > > > > skeleton with the lines above. Goethe was such a rich
      > individuality.
      > > > > What about his freemason inclination, why his hate against
      > Cagliostro,
      > > > > his rather conservative attitude in social and state questions in
      > > > > contrast to Schiller, Steiner also spoke of female incarnations,
      > and
      > > > > there is an oral tradition of a Steiner remark, that Goethe was
      > one of
      > > > > the most prominent figures in the Old Testament.
      > > > >
      > > > > So, what does the teacher in me say? No, guys n gals, no easy
      > google
      > > > > answers, but thorough study and dedication.
      > > > > Ottmar
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
      > > > > dottie_z@ wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Dan, thank you so much for the links. I have found something
      > that
      > > > > helps me in a debate as well regarding thy whys and whatfores of
      > > > > 'rules' of spiritual science.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I think it interesting to consider Goethe also as one of the
      > > > > disciples. This is the feel I get when looking at the pictures.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > All good things,
      > > > > > Dottie
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Google books few pages preview:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kskf3
      > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5ehqsy
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • ottmar12
      Hi Kim, here is a list of Wimbauer s books, all in German http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm I agree that most anthro writers just work out what Steiner
      Message 511 of 511 , Jan 10, 2009
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        Hi Kim,
        here is a list of Wimbauer's books, all in German
        http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm
        I agree that most anthro writers just work out what Steiner had said,
        some dilute it, make it homeopathic, some condense it on certain
        topics and make things clearer. Wimbauer belongs to the later
        category. However there have always been antho occultist who found
        out, researched or revealed new esoteric, occult facts. One of the
        best known today is Judith von Halle, just take her first book 'Und
        waere er nicht auferstanden..' And if he had not been raised or her
        latest book Der Abstieg in die Erdschichten, The descend into or
        through the spheres of the Earth, clarifying 666, Asuras, Sorat among
        others. Parts of these books are first class new occult facts, but as
        always, there is also rejection and jealousy towards her work. And
        there are other less known occultists in Anthroposophy, of course
        controversial, but you have to find out yourself and decide.
        I personally would be very slow in saying Goethe is Praxiteles or some
        other sculptor, I don't want to be connected with this statement.
        Kind regards Ottmar


        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Otmar,
        >
        > I am danish, and have seen German tv in my teens and read computer
        > literature, SF and Steiner afterward in German. As the Incarnational
        > wave split in Germany, where some moved to Scandinavia and the rest to
        > US, I should have used the language beforehand:)
        >
        > My mother were a Rosicrucian student and some of my Anthro-books I
        > inherited from her. Her teacher and close friend was educated at
        > Gotheanum, but was not an Anthroposoph. Through him we became aquainted
        > with Steiner and Emil Bock, his unpublished commentaries to the
        > Evangelies and his translation of the Evangelies, to be more specific.
        > Most of what I have read by other Anthroposophic authors was just words
        > repeating what Steiner said without any new thoughts, eventually with
        > some stuff of Steiners i hadn't read before.
        >
        > Who does Wimbauer mention? Whats the name of the book? Goethe und die
        > soziale Mission Mitteleuropas?
        >
        > Yes, the book was by Sigrid Damm. I learned about it through an article
        > by our Foreign Minister, Per Stig Møller.
        >
        > Around Goethe (Praxiteles) we have certain persons: A. F. Oeser,
        > Herder, Schiller(Skopas?), Christiane(Phryne?), Ottilie, Charlotte, and
        > Carl August. They are somewhat characteristic in their relation to
        > Goethe, so they may be possible to recognize.
        >
        >
        > * Goethe has a working relation to a man in power (Carl August),
        > within management and politics.
        > * Has a working relation to Schiller, within art.
        > * Women play a strong part in his life. He is born in Virgo, which
        > ads flawor to the context.
        > * He has knowledge about the esoteric from a reasonably young age
        > which means that he have had it through many lives.
        > Kind Regards,
        > Kim
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Kim
        > >
        > > I can't tell, not even suggest how many incarnations there were
        > > between Goethe and the Greek sculptor, I just wanted to talk about
        > > possible karmic layers. Whether there were these incarnations is open.
        > > Interesting for me, that it was so difficult for Steiner to find these
        > > incarnations, although he was so closely aquainted with Goethes work.
        > >
        > > Only books of Bock beside Steiner? Why in all the world Emil Bock? Is
        > > there a reason that you don't have other anthro books? How come you
        > > read German, I mean 100 years ago Germany was a leading nation in
        > > science and culture and the language learned in many European
        > > countries, but today learning German is very rare. What nationality
        > > are you?
        > >
        > > Try the Wimbauer booklet on Goethe which I mentioned, there you find
        > > another incarnation, according to an oral tradition. You'll be pleased
        > > to find out how good you sensed the right direction with the Hebrew
        > > connection.
        > >
        > > Kim:A good book is "Christiane und Goethe. Eine Recherche", Insel
        > > Verlag 1998, concerning his relationship to women, and especially to
        > > Christiane Vulpius.
        > > Ottmar: Isn't that book written by a woman Sigrid Damm or so. I
        > > attended a public reading of her. Few lives are as well documented as
        > > Goethes, think of the Sophien Ausgabe of Goethes works, letters etc
        > > 150 volumes or so plus hundreds of books on his life. Even today new
        > > things come up, just think of Anna Amalia, who some think was Goethes
        > > true love, not Frau von Stein or someone else. Then there is a new
        > > good book on Goethes encounter with Napoleon. Some years ago I enjoyed
        > > that book on Goethes first journey to Italy, with a lot of new
        > > material and insight by an Italian author. Goethes life would
        > > completely fill the life of 10 `normal' people. Just think of the
        > > antipods Schiller-Goethe and how their friendship was possible and
        > > what that means for the future of mankind, these 2 `streams' making
        > > friends.
        > > Kind regards Ottmar
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Ottmar,
        > > >
        > > > Those leads you mention tells that he has many incarnations before
        > him,
        > > > and that the missing incarnations before Goethe also has to be a
        > > > somewhat knowledgeable person in the esoteric. But the longer we go
        > back
        > > > in time the less we generally know about their esoteric knowledge,
        > > > except if they are part of a writing or is a writer.
        > > >
        > > > Another point is his relation to woman, I think that is a serious
        > lead
        > > > for his male incarnations, but I don't know if it can tell anything
        > > > about his female incarnations, except that they were needed:) There
        > > > could be a hint here to his Hebrew incarnations also.
        > > >
        > > > The key themes in a persons life, both small and big, follows the
        > > > incarnations. The lesser themes are somtimes easier to find in old
        > > > documents.
        > > >
        > > > I have a good library of books by Rudolf Steiner and Emil Bock, but
        > only
        > > > a few others of anthro origin.
        > > >
        > > > I read German fluently.
        > > >
        > > > A good book is "Christiane und Goethe. Eine Recherche", Insel Verlag
        > > > 1998, concerning his relationship to women, and especially to
        > Christiane
        > > > Vulpius.
        > > >
        > > > Goethe could have lived at the time of Plato's incarnation HROSWITHA
        > von
        > > > Gandersheim [Hrotsvit, Roswitha], (* um 935 im Herzogtum Sachsen,
        > †
        > > > um 975 in Gandersheim), possible as a woman.
        > > >
        > > > The other day I read about the matter falling into the center and
        > > > reappering out in the cosmos again. Reminds me of the black holes.
        > > >
        > > > Kind Regards,
        > > > Kim
        > > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
        > <ottmar12@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Kim,
        > > > >
        > > > > here are a few more ideas about Goethe. When we look at Goethe's
        > work
        > > > > we can discover different hints to various karmic `layers'.
        > > > > -The `greek layer' can be seen in his works that are filled with
        > fully
        > > > > modelled, nearly sculptured figures, picture-like sensual images,
        > > > > perfect in a beautiful form. There is also his longing for the
        > > > > southern light, which you can find in Hölderlin as well.
        > > > > -Think of his hymnus to Isis. Goethe was initiated into Egyptian !
        > > > > mysteries (GA 144, 6 Feb 1913)
        > > > > -In his old age there was this layer of old Rome, he had his codex
        > of
        > > > > classical art, was unable to see the new times in the young.
        > > > > -Then there are the middle ages, think of the Götz and the
        > early
        > > > > Faust, his adoration of the works from the gothic period.
        > > > > -There is the Renaissance Goethe, West-East Divan etc.
        > > > > -The paracelsist Goethe, practising alchemy and kabbalah, the
        > expert
        > > > > in magical works.
        > > > > -Rudolf Steiner stresses, that Goethe was inspired through
        > rosecrucian
        > > > > ideas, but that Goethe was not a Rosecrucian in his
        > Tagesbewusstsein,
        > > > > in his day consciousness, that Goethe was a subconscious initiate.
        > > > > (GA93 22 May 1907, GA 99 12 Jan 1919, GA 188)
        > > > > I wonder whether you speak German and whether you have a good
        > anthro
        > > > > library at hand. I found 2 references to lectures which are not
        > in my
        > > > > bookcase: Walter Cloos, Schicksalswirken in Goethes Lebenslauf and
        > > > > Alexander von Bernus, Goethes Urbegegnung (in the book Alchemie
        > und
        > > > > Heilkunst, Nuernberg 1969)
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Rudolf Steiner , Eliphas Levis and the seventh seal
        > > > >
        > > > > For me it was interesting again to read this comparison of Goethe
        > and
        > > > > Eliphas Levis, going through the spheres of Jupiter. Of course we
        > know
        > > > > much about Steiner relating to Goethe, but little is known about
        > his
        > > > > relationship to Eliphas Levi. (Most often Eliphas Levis is simply
        > > > > denounced as a left-hand occultist, slave of Rome and alike)
        > Steiner
        > > > > somehow continued or fulfilled the work of Goethe and in a very
        > > > > special aspect that of Eliphas Levi. Sure you know the seven seals
        > of
        > > > > the apocalypse, which are reproduced in different books. Few
        > > > > anthropops however know that the first 6 seals were given by
        > Eliphas
        > > > > Levi (at least I couldn't find an earlier publication) and only
        > the
        > > > > seventh seal was given by Rudolf Steiner. In Eliphas Levis print,
        > the
        > > > > seventh seal is apresented as a book with 7 seals. Tragically, as
        > > > > often in anthroposophical matters, few anthropops know this or
        > even
        > > > > care and what is worse, only the original drawning of Rudolf
        > Steiner
        > > > > is complete (see GA 284), all later reproductions, based on Clara
        > > > > Rettich's drawing, are defective. At the center of the cubus,
        > there
        > > > > must be a circle, an imaginative point, to which matter collapsed
        > > > > before it is projected to the heaven of stars; the turning point
        > so to
        > > > > speak is missing! I told Hella Wiesberger in Dornach some 25 years
        > > > > ago, she wasn't interested. You see, Rudolf Steiner also finished
        > a
        > > > > work done by Eliphas Levi (and you, Kim, make Rudolf Steiner
        > happy,
        > > > > verify what I wrote and then correct your seventh seal in GA 104
        > or
        > > > > wherever J )
        > > > > Kind regards Ottmar
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Ottmar,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Of Skopas, Lysippos and Praxiteles I would choose Praxiteles as
        > the
        > > > one.
        > > > > > The Art of Praxiteles II
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        <http://books.google.com/books?id=T8iSrsQ6EogC&printsec=frontcover&hl=da\
        > \
        > > > \
        > > > > > &source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0> .
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I found these two documents:
        > > > > > GREEK SCULPTURE AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS
        > > > > > <http://www.library.umass.edu/benson/jbgsalt.html> A
        > > > > > Psycho-Historical Investigation, J. L. Benson, Amherst,
        > > > Massachusetts:
        > > > > > University of Massachusetts Amherst Libraries,2000
        > > > > > And
        > > > > >
        > > > > > GREEK COLOR THEORY AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS
        > > > > > <http://www.library.umass.edu/benson/jbgcalt.html> A
        > > > Cosmological
        > > > > > Interpretation,J. L. Benson, Amherst, Massachusetts: University
        > of
        > > > > > Massachusetts, Amherst Libraries, 2000
        > > > > > The first referencing Greek Sculptors, and both referencing
        > Steiner
        > > > and
        > > > > > Goethe.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > You mention the Mexican incarnation, but that was another person
        > > > which
        > > > > > was compared to Goethe's incarnation.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Goethe has, I think, two incarnations as woman before his
        > > > incarnation as
        > > > > > Goethe, if I read Steiner right.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Steiner mentions that before the incarnation with the
        > initiation,
        > > > the
        > > > > > person goes through incarnations as Sculptor, Composer, Painter,
        > and
        > > > > > Writer. Is that the right sequence and where has he written
        > about
        > > > it? It
        > > > > > could be a lead for the intervening incarnations.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Regards,
        > > > > > Kim
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
        > > > <ottmar12@>
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi Kim,
        > > > > > > good that you addressed me by my name. I don't have the time
        > to
        > > > read
        > > > > > > all letters on this list, but I couldn't miss yours of course.
        > > > > > > I don't have the electronic version of the GA and the online
        > > > search
        > > > > > > machine is still not working. I could look up in a big e
        > > > > > > encyclopedia, the print version is 6500 pages and the booklet
        > of
        > > > > > > Wimbauer, I mentioned. There I found references to the GA and
        > the
        > > > page
        > > > > > > number, but they refer to pre 1985 German editions. This is
        > what I
        > > > > > found:
        > > > > > > GA 144, page 74 G lived in Greece,a philosopher and a
        > sculptor.
        > > > (There
        > > > > > > are 3 great famous sculptors, Phidias, Praxiteles and Skopas.
        > I
        > > > don't
        > > > > > > know whether G was one of them, I have never studied this
        > matter.)
        > > > > > > Steiner 144,72 There was most problably only 1 incarnation
        > between
        > > > the
        > > > > > > Greek and Goethe incarnation which I (RS) wasn't able to find.
        > > > > > > GA 239, Lecture 9 June 1924 at the very end, there RS speaks
        > of
        > > > > > > several! incarnations between Old Greece and Goethe and also
        > of a
        > > > > > > Mexican incarnation.
        > > > > > > Also GA 144 6 Feb 1913 and GA 236, 1 June 1924
        > > > > > > Of course Rudolf Steiner often spoke about Goethes Karma GA
        > 172/41
        > > > and
        > > > > > > following GA 310,26 following
        > > > > > > I remember spending much time with Goethe's books as a very
        > young
        > > > man,
        > > > > > > especially his ' autobiography' Dichtung und Wahrheit, then
        > > > Steiner's
        > > > > > > comments, but we mustn't forget, that Goehte was quite
        > > > konservative,
        > > > > > > more an abelitic soul. See the contrast to Beethoven, when
        > Goethe
        > > > and
        > > > > > > Beethoven met the Kaiser when walking in the park. Typical! We
        > can
        > > > > > > learn a lot by studying great individuals, from what they said
        > and
        > > > did
        > > > > > > and from their biographies. And it is enjoyable reading. G
        > lived
        > > > in
        > > > > > > apocalyptic times, French Revolution, he wanted to feel the
        > breath
        > > > of
        > > > > > > death when he attended the battle of Valmy, the encounter of
        > > > Napoleon
        > > > > > > and Goethe etc. And we live in apocalyptic times, too.
        > > > > > > Tell me, tell us when you find out something about Goethe
        > which is
        > > > > > > new, touching, important.
        > > > > > > Ottmar
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@
        > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hi Ottmar,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > In GA 138 as seen in 'Platon
        > > > <http://wiki.anthroposophie.net/Platon>
        > > > > > '
        > > > > > > > I have found the following (In german):
        > > > > > > > Nun habe ich ja schon vor einiger Zeit hier davon
        > gesprochen,
        > > > > > daß,
        > > > > > > > als Plato noch lebte, nicht gerade in Platos
        > Philosophenschule,
        > > > aber
        > > > > > > > unter Platos Einfluß — ich habe es sogar schon vor
        > > > > > Jahrzehnten
        > > > > > > > erwähnt —, herangewachsen ist ein Künstler, nicht
        > aus
        > > > > > > > platonischer Philosophie, aber aus platonischem Geiste
        > heraus,
        > > > der
        > > > > > dann,
        > > > > > > > nachdem er durch andere Inkarnationen gegangen ist, als
        > Goethe
        > > > > > > > wiedergeboren worden ist, und der karmisch dasjenige, was
        > aus
        > > > den
        > > > > > > > früheren Inkarnationen, namentlich aber aus der
        > > > Plato-Strömung
        > > > > > > > kam, in der Jupiter-Region umgewandelt hat, so daß es
        > > > diejenige
        > > > > > Art
        > > > > > > > von Weisheit werden konnte, die eben bei Goethe alles
        > > > durchdringt.
        > > > > > > > Which says that Goethe has incarnations between the two
        > > > mentioned
        > > > > > > > incarnations.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > It don't say anything about his occupation, but you say that
        > he
        > > > was
        > > > > > a
        > > > > > > > Sculptor?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Steiner mentions that the occupations in the incarnations
        > before
        > > > the
        > > > > > > > incarnation where the individual is initiated follows some
        > > > rules,
        > > > > > ..,
        > > > > > > > sculptor,...., painter, and author. Do any of you know where
        > > > Steiner
        > > > > > > > wrote about that?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > It is probable that Goethe incarnated about the same times
        > and
        > > > > > > > localities as Plato.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Happy New Year,
        > > > > > > > Kim
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
        > > > > > <ottmar12@>
        > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > On Goethe's incarnations
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Steiner talked on different occasions about Goethe's
        > previous
        > > > > > > > > incarnations. A lot was written about Goethe, see for
        > example
        > > > > > Herbert
        > > > > > > > > Wimbauer wrote in his small book `Goethe und die soziale
        > > > Mission
        > > > > > > > > Mitteleuropas' http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm
        > > > > > > > > Goethe was initiated in the old Egypt Mysteries, see
        > Goethe s
        > > > Hym
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > Isis RS, GA 144, 6 Feb. 1919
        > > > > > > > > Then Goethe was a great sculptor in old Greece, in a
        > platonic
        > > > > > > > > atmosphere. GA 239, 9. June 1924
        > > > > > > > > RS said that he couldn't find any incarnations between old
        > > > Greece
        > > > > > ang
        > > > > > > > > 18 th / 19 th century incarnation.
        > > > > > > > > These answers are too short of course, to me it feels I
        > gave a
        > > > > > > > > skeleton with the lines above. Goethe was such a rich
        > > > > > individuality.
        > > > > > > > > What about his freemason inclination, why his hate against
        > > > > > Cagliostro,
        > > > > > > > > his rather conservative attitude in social and state
        > questions
        > > > in
        > > > > > > > > contrast to Schiller, Steiner also spoke of female
        > > > incarnations,
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > there is an oral tradition of a Steiner remark, that
        > Goethe
        > > > was
        > > > > > one of
        > > > > > > > > the most prominent figures in the Old Testament.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > So, what does the teacher in me say? No, guys n gals, no
        > easy
        > > > > > google
        > > > > > > > > answers, but thorough study and dedication.
        > > > > > > > > Ottmar
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
        > > > > > > > > dottie_z@ wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Hi Dan, thank you so much for the links. I have found
        > > > something
        > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > > helps me in a debate as well regarding thy whys and
        > whatfores
        > > > of
        > > > > > > > > 'rules' of spiritual science.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > I think it interesting to consider Goethe also as one of
        > the
        > > > > > > > > disciples. This is the feel I get when looking at the
        > > > pictures.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > All good things,
        > > > > > > > > > Dottie
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Google books few pages preview:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kskf3
        > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5ehqsy
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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