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  • Robert Mason
    Here is a comment from Willy Lochmann on this thread, auf deutsch, in search of a translation. RM ... [snip]
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 28, 2008
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      Here is a comment from Willy Lochmann on
      this thread, auf deutsch, in search of a
      translation.
      RM

      > From: info@... <info@...>
      > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Menzer re AAG history
      > To: "Robert Mason" <robertsmason_99@...>
      > Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 3:37 PM
      > I will say it in German. Maybe someone can translate it:
      > Rolf Saacke has begun in the 1980ies to (ein Evangelium zu
      > verkünden, welches den Namen der sogenannten
      > Weihnachtstagungsgesellschaft als "Anthroposophische
      > Gesellschaft" festlegt. Natürlich hat Rudolf Steiner
      > während der Weihnachtstagung immer wieder nur von
      > "unserer Gesellschaft" oder auch von der
      > "Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft" gesprochen,
      > dennoch wurde die "Allgemeine Anthroposophische
      > Gesellschaft" Weihnachten 1923 begründet. Es genügt
      > den Text von Rudolf Steiner im ersten Nachrichtenblatt
      > nachzulesen, wo genau dieser Name schriftlich gegeben ist.
      > Selbst das handschriftliche Manuskript Rudolf Steiners
      > lautet "...zur Begründung der Allgemeinen
      > Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft". Über die Gründe
      > für diese falsche Namensbehauptung von Rolf Saacke und
      > seinen Jüngern haben wir auch im Rundbrief einiges schon
      > erkärt, was ich hier nicht wiederholen möchte. Es ist
      > schlicht gesagt ein grober Unfug, hinter dem sich keine
      > edlen Motive verbergen! - Vielleicht werden künftige
      > Übersetzung der weiteren Beiträge von Herrn Menzer helfen,
      > diese Dinge noch klarer aufzuzeigen. Teil 1 war ja lediglich
      > ein kleines Fragment.)
      > Hope you can understand appoximately or someone is willing
      > to translate.
      > Best regards,
      > Willy Lochmann
      >
      > Zitat von Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>:
      >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
      > "Frank Thomas Smith"
      > > <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Robert
      > Mason
      > > <robertsmason_99@> wrote:
      > >
      > > With all due respect for Herr Menzer, because he's
      > trying, I must
      > > point out that there's a big hole in his logic. He
      > says that the
      > > Society refounded at Chrsitmas 1923 was the AAG
      > (General
      > > Anthroposophical Society). He also discusses the
      > statutes. The problem
      > > with his thesis is: Why do those statutes - as well as
      > all the
      > > membership cards which Rudolf Steiner and the rest of
      > the Vorstand
      > > presidents signed - read "Anthroposophical
      > Society" and not "General
      > > Anthroposophical Society"? And.. the GAS, which
      > he correctly describes
      > > as the re-named Building Society on Feb. 8, 1925, was
      > a completely
      > > different Society with statutes having nothing to do
      > with the
      > > Christmas ones. And one of its sub-sections was the
      > "Administration of
      > > the A.S." Btw the present Vorstand finally
      > recognized all this, but
      > > their attempt at correction can only be called
      > foolish...and costly.
      > > So now nothing has changed.
      > > Frank
      > >
      > >
      > >> To All:
      > >>
      > >> I just received this English text of the first
      > >> part of Rudolf Menzer's history of the
      [snip]
    • Frank Thomas Smith
      ... OK, I ll bite, if only because what Lochmann says is so outrageous. 1. …Rolf Saacke and his disciples… I could name many people, anthroposopists
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 28, 2008
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        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
        <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here is a comment from Willy Lochmann on
        > this thread, auf deutsch, in search of a
        > translation.
        > RM

        OK, I'll bite, if only because what Lochmann says is so outrageous.
        1. "…Rolf Saacke and his disciples…" I could name many people,
        anthroposopists all, including myself, who agree with Saacke about the
        name of the Society founded in 1923 was the "Anthroposophical
        Society", without being his disciples.
        2. Lochmann doesn't answer any of the points in my post below.
        3. By the "first" Newsletter, I assume he means that of Jan. 13, 1924.
        Where the title of the article reads G.A.S., but in the text itself,
        A.S. is always used except in one instance. I can't prove this at the
        moment, because I can't find or no longer have the docs, but remember
        the explanation for this: in the handwritten text R.S. used "general
        Anthroposophical Society, i.e., no capital letter for "general",
        indicating that's it's a descriptive adjective and not the name of the
        Society. If that seems far-fetched, please note that in the
        Newsletters of Feb.17, 1924, and March 9, 1924 in articles by Steiner,
        the Society is called only A.S., as well as in the statutes,
        membership cards and elsewhere. I would also like to point out that
        the Newsletter for Members (Supplement to "Das Goetheanum" was then
        and still is called: "Was in der Anthroposophische Gesellschaft
        vorgeht" (What is Happening is the Anthroposophical Society). I
        suggest that Lochmann re-check the supplement to G.A. 260a. I can well
        understand why one would consider it of no importance whether the
        Society's name was A.S. or G.A.S. And I would agree with them if it
        weren't an essential element of the question as to whether one or two
        societies were meant to co-exist. (Translation of Lochman's text below.)
        Frank

        "In the 1980s Rolf [Rudolf] Saacke began to announce a Gospel which
        fixes the name of the so-called Christmas Conference Society as
        "Anthropsophical Society". Of course during the Christmas Conference
        Rudolf Steiner always only spoke of "our Society" or also the
        "Anthroposophical Society" , although the "General Anthtoposophical
        Society" was founded at Christmas 1923. It is sufficient to read the
        text by Rudolf Steiner in the first Newsletter, where exactly this
        name is used. Even Rudolf Steiner's handwritten manuscript reads
        '…about the founding of the General Anthroposophical Society'. We have
        already somewhat explained the reason for this false name giving by
        Rolf Saacke and his disciples, which I don't want to repeat here.
        Simply said, it is a gross mischief, behind which no noble motives are
        hidden! Perhaps future translations of Herr Menzer's contributions
        will help to better clarify these things. Part I was merely a small
        fragment."


        >
        > > From: info@... <info@...>
        > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Menzer re AAG history
        > > To: "Robert Mason" <robertsmason_99@...>
        > > Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 3:37 PM
        > > I will say it in German. Maybe someone can translate it:
        > > Rolf Saacke has begun in the 1980ies to (ein Evangelium zu
        > > verkünden, welches den Namen der sogenannten
        > > Weihnachtstagungsgesellschaft als "Anthroposophische
        > > Gesellschaft" festlegt. Natürlich hat Rudolf Steiner
        > > während der Weihnachtstagung immer wieder nur von
        > > "unserer Gesellschaft" oder auch von der
        > > "Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft" gesprochen,
        > > dennoch wurde die "Allgemeine Anthroposophische
        > > Gesellschaft" Weihnachten 1923 begründet. Es genügt
        > > den Text von Rudolf Steiner im ersten Nachrichtenblatt
        > > nachzulesen, wo genau dieser Name schriftlich gegeben ist.
        > > Selbst das handschriftliche Manuskript Rudolf Steiners
        > > lautet "...zur Begründung der Allgemeinen
        > > Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft". Über die Gründe
        > > für diese falsche Namensbehauptung von Rolf Saacke und
        > > seinen Jüngern haben wir auch im Rundbrief einiges schon
        > > erkärt, was ich hier nicht wiederholen möchte. Es ist
        > > schlicht gesagt ein grober Unfug, hinter dem sich keine
        > > edlen Motive verbergen! - Vielleicht werden künftige
        > > Übersetzung der weiteren Beiträge von Herrn Menzer helfen,
        > > diese Dinge noch klarer aufzuzeigen. Teil 1 war ja lediglich
        > > ein kleines Fragment.)
        > > Hope you can understand appoximately or someone is willing
        > > to translate.
        > > Best regards,
        > > Willy Lochmann
        > >
        > > Zitat von Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>:
        > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
        > > "Frank Thomas Smith"
        > > > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Robert
        > > Mason
        > > > <robertsmason_99@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > With all due respect for Herr Menzer, because he's
        > > trying, I must
        > > > point out that there's a big hole in his logic. He
        > > says that the
        > > > Society refounded at Chrsitmas 1923 was the AAG
        > > (General
        > > > Anthroposophical Society). He also discusses the
        > > statutes. The problem
        > > > with his thesis is: Why do those statutes - as well as
        > > all the
        > > > membership cards which Rudolf Steiner and the rest of
        > > the Vorstand
        > > > presidents signed - read "Anthroposophical
        > > Society" and not "General
        > > > Anthroposophical Society"? And.. the GAS, which
        > > he correctly describes
        > > > as the re-named Building Society on Feb. 8, 1925, was
        > > a completely
        > > > different Society with statutes having nothing to do
        > > with the
        > > > Christmas ones. And one of its sub-sections was the
        > > "Administration of
        > > > the A.S." Btw the present Vorstand finally
        > > recognized all this, but
        > > > their attempt at correction can only be called
        > > foolish...and costly.
        > > > So now nothing has changed.
        > > > Frank
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >> To All:
        > > >>
        > > >> I just received this English text of the first
        > > >> part of Rudolf Menzer's history of the
        > [snip]
        >
      • dottie zold
        Frank, you are wrong on the Constitution question. I just found your article again on line when looking up Saacke and again I see how wrong you are in not
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 28, 2008
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          Frank, you are wrong on the Constitution question. I just found your article again on line when looking up Saacke and again I see how wrong you are in not understanding the intent of Rudolf Steiner. I do not know why you can not see this.
           
          All good things,
          Dottie

          --- On Sun, 12/28/08, Frank Thomas Smith <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
          From: Frank Thomas Smith <eltrigal78@...>
          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fw: Re: Fwd: Re: Menzer re AAG history
          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 5:30 PM

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
          <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
          >
          > Here is a comment from Willy Lochmann on
          > this thread, auf deutsch, in search of a
          > translation.
          > RM
          
          OK, I'll bite, if only because what Lochmann says is so outrageous. 
          1.	 "…Rolf Saacke and his disciples…" I could name many people,
          anthroposopists all, including myself, who agree with Saacke about the
          name of the Society founded in 1923 was the "Anthroposophical
          Society", without being his disciples. 
          2.	 Lochmann doesn't answer any of the points in my post below.
          3.	By the "first" Newsletter, I assume he means that of Jan. 13,
          1924.
          Where the title of the article reads G.A.S., but in the text itself,
          A.S. is always used except in one instance. I can't prove this at the
          moment, because I can't find or no longer have the docs, but remember
          the explanation for this: in the handwritten text R.S. used "general
          Anthroposophical Society, i.e., no capital letter for "general",
          indicating that's it's a descriptive adjective and not the name of the
          Society. If that seems far-fetched, please note that in the
          Newsletters of Feb.17, 1924, and March 9, 1924 in articles by Steiner,
          the Society is called only A.S., as well as in the statutes,
          membership cards and elsewhere. I would also like to point out that
          the Newsletter for Members (Supplement to "Das Goetheanum" was then
          and still is called: "Was in der Anthroposophische Gesellschaft
          vorgeht" (What is Happening is the Anthroposophical Society). I
          suggest that Lochmann re-check the supplement to G.A. 260a. I can well
          understand why one would consider it of no importance whether the
          Society's name was A.S. or G.A.S. And I would agree with them if it
          weren't an essential element of the question as to whether one or two
          societies were meant to co-exist. (Translation of Lochman's text below.)
          Frank     
          
          "In the 1980s Rolf [Rudolf] Saacke began to announce a Gospel which
          fixes the name of the so-called Christmas Conference Society as
          "Anthropsophical Society". Of course during the Christmas Conference
          Rudolf Steiner always only spoke of "our Society" or also the
          "Anthroposophical Society" , although the "General
          Anthtoposophical
          Society"  was founded at Christmas 1923. It is sufficient to read the
          text by Rudolf Steiner in the first Newsletter, where exactly this
          name is used. Even Rudolf Steiner's handwritten manuscript reads
          '…about the founding of the General Anthroposophical Society'. We
          have
          already somewhat explained the reason for this false name giving by
          Rolf Saacke and his disciples, which I don't want to repeat here.
          Simply said, it is a gross mischief, behind which no noble motives are
          hidden! Perhaps future translations of Herr Menzer's contributions
          will help to better clarify these things. Part I was merely a small
          fragment."  
          
          
          > 
          > > From: info@... <info@...>
          > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Menzer re AAG history
          > > To: "Robert Mason" <robertsmason_99@...>
          > > Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 3:37 PM
          > > I will say it in German. Maybe someone can translate it:
          > > Rolf Saacke has begun in the 1980ies to (ein Evangelium zu
          > > verkünden, welches den Namen der sogenannten
          > > Weihnachtstagungsgesellschaft als "Anthroposophische
          > > Gesellschaft" festlegt. Natürlich hat Rudolf Steiner
          > > während der Weihnachtstagung immer wieder nur von
          > > "unserer Gesellschaft" oder auch von der
          > > "Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft" gesprochen,
          > > dennoch wurde die "Allgemeine Anthroposophische
          > > Gesellschaft" Weihnachten 1923 begründet. Es genügt
          > > den Text von Rudolf Steiner im ersten Nachrichtenblatt
          > > nachzulesen, wo genau dieser Name schriftlich gegeben ist.
          > > Selbst das handschriftliche Manuskript Rudolf Steiners
          > > lautet "...zur Begründung der Allgemeinen
          > > Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft". Über die Gründe
          > > für diese falsche Namensbehauptung von Rolf Saacke und
          > > seinen Jüngern haben wir auch im Rundbrief einiges schon
          > > erkärt, was ich hier nicht wiederholen möchte. Es ist
          > > schlicht gesagt ein grober Unfug, hinter dem sich keine
          > > edlen Motive verbergen! - Vielleicht werden künftige
          > > Übersetzung der weiteren Beiträge von Herrn Menzer helfen,
          > > diese Dinge noch klarer aufzuzeigen. Teil 1 war ja lediglich
          > > ein kleines Fragment.)
          > > Hope you can understand appoximately or someone is willing
          > > to translate.
          > > Best regards,
          > > Willy Lochmann
          > > 
          > > Zitat von Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>:
          > > 
          > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
          > > "Frank Thomas Smith"
          > > > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
          > > > 
          > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Robert
          > > Mason
          > > > <robertsmason_99@> wrote:
          > > > 
          > > > With all due respect for Herr Menzer, because he's
          > > trying, I must
          > > > point out that there's a big hole in his logic. He
          > > says that the
          > > > Society refounded at Chrsitmas 1923 was the AAG
          > > (General
          > > > Anthroposophical Society). He also discusses the
          > > statutes. The problem
          > > > with his thesis is: Why do those statutes - as well as
          > > all the
          > > > membership cards which Rudolf Steiner and the rest of
          > > the Vorstand
          > > > presidents signed - read "Anthroposophical
          > > Society" and not "General
          > > > Anthroposophical Society"? And.. the GAS, which
          > > he correctly describes
          > > > as the re-named Building Society on Feb. 8, 1925, was
          > > a completely
          > > > different Society with statutes having nothing to do
          > > with the
          > > > Christmas ones. And one of its sub-sections was the
          > > "Administration of
          > > > the A.S." Btw the present Vorstand finally
          > > recognized all this, but
          > > > their attempt at correction can only be called
          > > foolish...and costly.
          > > > So now nothing has changed.
          > > > Frank
          > > > 
          > > > 
          > > >> To All:
          > > >> 
          > > >> I just received this English text of the first
          > > >> part of Rudolf Menzer's history of the
          > [snip]
          >
          
          
          
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