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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Anthroposphical spiritual fruits

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  • dottie zold
    Dear Patricia, welcome to the group. I want to say that I appreciate your offerings and agree there is value in seeing safety working in initimate groups. I
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 9, 2008
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      Dear Patricia, welcome to the group. I want to say that I appreciate your offerings and agree there is value in seeing safety working in initimate groups. I want to say that in seeing the value in this I also so a downside when it doesn't find the light of day in other groups and to the Society as a whole. And I think that is why we have other groups and people wanting to share and to find others. Many times these are not in our local branches and we are actually meeting those on the web who do have similar experiences that one has not encountered in their face to face life or in groups. I find no value if it stays within a small group of intimate friends instead of opening it up for the whole. But that is the Manes in me. I am not concerned with  myself but others who might be also not encountering others who might be able to shed light on a thing out of experience.
       
      For example, there is only one person that has confirmed this change in the manner that I had experienced at 31. He said 'it was a series of events.' And he would be right. Now, I have asked that question in a variety of ways and I have not encountered one who could confirm that. They could speak to other things but not that. They could relate what Rudolf Steiner shares but not the experience itself.
       
      In the same manner I encountered Rudolf Steiner in a dream. He led me through a house with many rooms, to the ocean, where I was then freed from the troubles, for he had shown me the way. It wasn't until many years later that I could be clear about this dream as nobody else has spoken to it. I did find here on line one to confirm it as Rudolf Steiner was dressed in the same english suit as the one appearing in my dream.
       
      Now, I have also experienced the Light Body of Christ, also known as the 'Phantom Body of Christ'. And although it was mentioned years ago by one on this list that they had a friend who encountered the Christ in the etheric he did not share the insight of the friend. When I was trying to consider this experience of the other to mine I could not. I wondered, 'did He speak' for how the friend here on line conveyed it it was so much more magificant than mine and I thought 'well, maybe there is something wrong with me that I could not 'hear' Him. For I thought the way it was conveyed, although only the words 'my friend experienced this deeply felt', meant that He had spoken and conveyed some message'. I had not had a message, although the first Body of Lights resounded with the words 'I come in peace'. But no message. And so I wondered if I was deaf in the spiritual world way.
       
      Now, there is one on list  who has this experience of the Christ after a series of events. It was known to me that he has and I am aware of one other who has not shared it with me or the list outright, but I know it to be true as one can read/hear it in the words of others, even when they don't say it explicitley. And I asked him to share it and I guess he doesn't trust me or thinks it not good to share it on line. Well, I just want to know if he heard Him speak. That's all. I want to know if he then experienced Him a few times later and if he had a short view of the Akashic records and if they were in color.
       
      There is a difference from when one experiences this Phantom body which I will from now on call the Light Body, and when one experiences a feeling of this out of ones life experiences. People say there is not a difference as they are all equal and we all have this experience but I have to say I can tell those who have had the experienced the Light Body and those who have had the experience of the Love of Christ through some personal experience or contemplation.
       
      So, this keeping quiet and so forth in circles when the media is about to pounce on this just as we come to it, does not serve I think. I think its important that Anthros recognize that this is a mainstream work in that it is spirit in the world. Those who have these experiences and can speak to them, should. I am not one who can speak to this experience from an anthroposophical point of view because it is not my language. However these others can. And they should have courage to do so. For I kid you not we will be once again having Ahriman lead the way into such deep places with his materialistic thinking that skews the whole matter.
       
      Regarding the comment I hear often 'Rudolf Steiner said he wished the name anthroposophy would change every day' I'd like to know if you or anyone here has where this quote can be found. Just as we have Theosophy, Philosophy, we now have Anthroposophy. Each representing a changing of the guards so to speak. If we do not call Michael, by another name, Christ by another name, you by another name, myself by another name, why would we change Anthroposophia's name?
       
      It is understood that the Sophia and also I would imagine Anthrosposophian qualities in other cultures, this does not mean we should change the name of the Being we know as Anthroposophia. Can we recognize her in other cultures, well I would hope so. I would hope there would be one, kinda like what Bradford offered on the Native path, although I was not able to make time to fully contemplate it, who could show where these meet. That would be wonderful. It is also said that Rudolf Steiner shared that 'the name is the activity of the Being'. So in that we have the Being Anthroposophia.
       
      All good things and thanks for your sharings,
      Dottie

      --- On Sun, 12/7/08, pj.geary <isis.sophia@...> wrote:
      From: pj.geary <isis.sophia@...>
      Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Anthroposphical spiritual fruits
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, December 7, 2008, 6:47 AM

      As a newcomer here, I offer the following:
      
      
      About souls deciding to reincarnate relatively quickly – there can be 
      some technical difficulties around that for the incarnating 
      individual. If we focus on the personal sacrifice and courage that is 
      required to perform such an act, we may glimpse the level of love and 
      commitment to the well being of all the earth and her many souls. It 
      is clearly a step towards the service of a bodhisattva. 
      
      Individuals struggling alone to share their spiritual investigations 
      and the memories of other lifetimes merit a safe circle in which to 
      practice such efforts. This was the problem RS faced in his lifetime –
       others lacked courage and commitment. So he took up alone the 
      communication of knowledge. The degree of ridicule one experiences 
      has more to do with one's fear of ridicule which then manifests than 
      the opposing forces. One can witness the nightmare yet be part of 
      something new that is resonant with safety. No one vision, nor the 
      visions of any one individual, are entirely correct. Reality is 
      constantly reinventing itself through the conscious awareness of all. 
      
      As the Divine Feminine returns to us and reveals her wonders, she 
      needs our assistance to manifest fully in the world. Turning to Her 
      for guidance can provide the way. She will bring the balance, ease 
      the burden of Christ and eventually heal those opposing forces who 
      are so painful to us all in their denial of the power of love. When 
      we stand for Her in the world, we discover Christ at our side.
      
      RS stated that if he could change the name `anthroposophy' every day, 
      that he would. The world is remarkably resonant with much of the 
      knowledge of anthroposophy, the relationship with the being of 
      anthroposophy, but it is not always called by that name. The Divine 
      has many names, many faces. It is the coming together of those 
      diverse names that will make the difference someday, not the vision 
      or opinions of any individual or group. If we ask Sophia to reveal 
      herself to us in the world, she generates a luminescence in many 
      places, in many names. She reveals the fearlessness of love and that 
      lights our way. 
      
      Patricia
      
      
      
      
      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" 
      <ottmar12@...> wrote:
      >
      > 
      >   Hi Tarjei, thanks for your comments.
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Tarjei:
      > 
      > I think silence is the best rule of thumb here, until absolute 
      certainty
      > is arrived at, and the subject matter to be revealed to the public 
      is
      > really something that the public needs to know. The very discipline 
      of
      > silence is a great contributor to the much more demanding discipline
      > involved in the acquisition of clairvoyance, spiritual research, and
      > initiation, with decades and probably also lifetimes of trial and
      > error....
      > 
      > And anyone who meets these criteria and decides to break his or her
      > silence, must also be able to endure ridicule and disbelief without
      > becoming visibly insulted. But time and time again, I have found 
      that I
      > must be utterly careful about I say to people making unusual claims
      > because they can't take criticism, which again proves that they 
      haven't
      > done their basic work on personal character and control of feelings 
      and
      > so on. One has to treat them like vulnerable children.
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Ottmar: I agree 100 per cent.   Repeat it as often as you can.
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > On Yonassam Gershom: He gave this answer to a friend in Amsterdam, I
      > personally wasn't present there.  I believe Y.Gershom that he has no
      > inclination to anthroposophy  at all. I've heard that he doesn't
      > persue the matter of people coming back from the holocaut anymore.
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > The 600-year-rule of reincarnation isn't valid in our present time,
      > I think. There are more exceptions than the rule today.  –fast
      > development in the world means the need to learn now, like in each 
      new
      > period  -see the 7 billion people today  -the aristotelian anthros
      > coming back at the end of 20 th century (but where are the great
      > platonici??) –and and
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Tarjei: In other words, if you ain't got that courage yet, then 
      continue
      > to shut up. But you also need absolutem tested certainty about that 
      of
      > which you speak:
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Ottmars answer: Okay, but…  You can never be abolutely sure, there
      > are always some higher aspects, points of view which make your 
      finding
      > relative. And you have a responsibility whenever you find 
      something. You
      > always `pay' for knowledge, most often with `pain'
      > (Steiner), but the story doesn't end here. Someone may need your
      > finding or result of your search. True knowledge is a burden and not
      > ammunition for agruements.
      > 
      > Greetings Ottmar
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
      > <coolvibes@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" 
      ottmar12@
      > > wrote:
      > >
      > > > To name some: Heide Oehms, Christiane Feuerstack, both
      > > > Germans, Marianne Carolus is Dutch, Jostein Saether, Norwegian. 
      (Our
      > > > Norwegian friend on this list certainly knows him.)
      > >
      > > This group has always had at least a handful of Scandinavian
      > subscribers
      > > and contributors, so I assume you're not talking about me. I
      > apparently
      > > ought to know about Mr. Saether after looking him up in the 
      wikipedia
      > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jostein_Saether> , but I'm
      far less
      > > knowledgeable of cultures and things anthroposophical than some 
      people
      > > assume. Basically, I'm a formally uneducated simpeleton who has 
      just
      > > read a few books in prison and behind the wheels of taxicabs....
      > >
      > > > My attitude to this kind of individual and historic karma 
      research
      > is:
      > > I
      > > > don`t reject it, I can't really judge it, many things make 
      sense to
      > > > me. However I don't like very personal stories, I once 
      discouraged a
      > > > friend to publish such a kind of content in a book of his.
      > >
      > > The sentiments you describe here have also been my own, and they 
      still
      > > are....
      > >
      > > > Y. Gershom was
      > > > invited several times by anthro institutions in Germany and 
      Holland.
      > > > (Asked why he spoke so often in front of anthros he answered 
      openly:
      > > > They pay best.)
      > >
      > > I don't necessarily buy that at surface value. Gershom is a
      Jewish
      > > rabbi, of the Hasidic tradit)on I think (see picture below), and 
      and
      > he
      > > does not want to be suspected of being an anthroposophists, but 
      he may
      > > be a closet one for all we know, just like very many Catholics 
      are.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I got an email from the guy once, probably close to a decade ago, 
      when
      > I
      > > was constructing all those link pages on my website, including
      > > Anthroposophical Links, Anarchist Links, Christian Links, Jewish
      > Links,
      > > etc. and I did several links to Gershom's stuff and asked him
      some
      > sort
      > > of info about it. In his response, he emphasized most strongly 
      that he
      > > was not an anthroposophist and, I seem to recall, that he most
      > > certainly did not want my website to suggest any such thing.
      > >
      > > I am amused, however, to see his remark that he speaks to anthros
      > > because they pay best, because that reminds me of the great late 
      actor
      > > and movie star Robert Mitchum, who always endeavored to maintain 
      the
      > > public image that he was lazy and worked only for the money. He 
      even
      > > said that to the Norwegian press when he participated in a movie
      > project
      > > that could afford to pay him very little beyond his plane ticket 
      and
      > > hotel; Mitchum always tried to hide the fact that he loved his 
      work so
      > > much that he would have done it for nothing.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > Of course immediately there was opposition towards him
      > > > on the ground of Steiner quotations, that such fast 
      reincarnation is
      > > > near to impossible and so on.
      > >
      > > One could make this opposition even stronger on the ground of
      > Blavatsky
      > > quotations; she gave an average of 600 years between 
      incarnations. I
      > > believe this resonates with Steiner at some points, but he also 
      cites
      > > many exceptions, and if we consider the 600 years as applying to 
      those
      > > living into advanced old age, or at least the three score and 
      ten, we
      > > are left with the possibility that very young children who die,
      > > especially when their deaths are forced upon them from external
      > violent
      > > circumstances, have been deprived of their life missions and
      > > self-development and may therefore seek re-entry as soon as 
      possible.
      > >
      > > My mom once mentioned something she had read or heard from very 
      poor
      > > corners of the world where Hinduism or Buddhism was dominant (i.e.
      > > cultures cognizant of reincarnation), where some families had too 
      many
      > > children, who were dying from diseases, thee was lots of infant
      > > mortality and so on -- And some of these mothers were challenged 
      by
      > > Westerners about the sense of having so many children who did not 
      make
      > > it; they replied that the same souls were trying time and time 
      again
      > to
      > > incarnate into their families.
      > >
      > > And sometime not too long ago when I held my breath and peeked 
      into
      > the
      > > Abominable Abyss, I saw one of the creatures there raging against
      > > anthroposophical skepticism towards the virtue of abortion, that
      > someone
      > > had said that a woman who aborts her unborn child, may be followed
      > > around by that unborn soul. And of course the hole creatures find 
      such
      > > an idea utterly reprehensible and disgusting, so they sit down in 
      a
      > > circle holding hands and do a mantra against Rudolf Steiner,
      > > anthroposophy, anthroposophists, and especially the Waldorf 
      culture.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > There are many more in the anthro scene who have personal 
      experience
      > > in
      > > > karmic research, who give counselling and seminars. There are 
      some
      > > > other anthros who write or talk about their spiritual 
      experiences,
      > > what
      > > > they found out about the historic Jesus, Judith von Halle, about
      > > > Atlantean or Lemurian times, even about old Saturn. These 
      people are
      > > of
      > > > course highly controversialy, ridiculed and fiercely fought. And
      > there
      > > > are many many more anthroposophs who hardly ever or never talk 
      about
      > > > their experiences in public or private.
      > >
      > > I think silence is the best rule of thumb here, until absolute
      > certainty
      > > is arrived at, and the subject matter to be revealed to the 
      public is
      > > really something that the public needs to know. The very 
      discipline of
      > > silence is a great contributor to the much more demanding 
      discipline
      > > involved in the acquisition of clairvoyance, spiritual research, 
      and
      > > initiation, with decades and probably also lifetimes of trial and
      > > error....
      > >
      > > And anyone who meets these criteria and decides to break his or 
      her
      > > silence, must also be able to endure ridicule and disbelief 
      without
      > > becoming visibly insulted. But time and time again, I have found 
      that
      > I
      > > must be utterly careful about I say to people making unusual 
      claims
      > > because they can't take criticism, which again proves that they
      > haven't
      > > done their basic work on personal character and control of 
      feelings
      > and
      > > so on. One has to treat them like vulnerable children.
      > >
      > > http://uncletaz.com/rittelmeyer/rittel02.html
      > > <%20http://uncletaz.com/rittelmeyer/rittel02.html>
      > >
      > > Friedrich Rittelmeyer: Why was it that in spite of all you must 
      have
      > > known even in those early years, you were so completely silent 
      about
      > > occult matters until your fortieth year?
      > >
      > > Rudolf Steiner: I had to make a certain position for myself in the
      > world
      > > first. People may say nowadays that my writings are mad, but my
      > earlier
      > > work is also there, and they cannot wholly ignore it. And, 
      moreover, I
      > > had to bring things to a certain clarity in myself, to a point 
      where I
      > > could give them form, before it was possible to talk about them. 
      That
      > > was not so very easy. And then - I admit it frankly - it needs 
      courage
      > > to speak openly about such things. I had first to acquire this
      > courage.
      > >
      > > In other words, if you ain't got that courage yet, then continue 
      to
      > shut
      > > up. But you also need absolutem tested certainty about that of 
      which
      > you
      > > speak:
      > >
      > > Friedrich Rittelmeyer: Have you really never been mistaken in your
      > > investigations and been obliged to correct them afterwards?
      > > Rudolf Steiner: I have never spoken of what I wasn't quite sure 
      of.
      > > Friedrich Rittelmeyer: I mean, have you not on closer scrutiny 
      had to
      > > correct your first impressions and results of research?
      > > Rudolf Steiner: Yes, but then there is always an obvious reason 
      for
      > it.
      > > For instance, if I meet you in a fog and do not recognise you, 
      the fog
      > > itself is a factor which must then be taken into account.
      > > Friedrich Rittelmeyer: Has it never happened that you had to admit
      > > afterwards: 'I was wrong there'?
      > > Rudolf Steiner: Well, yes, in human beings I have sometimes been
      > > deceived. But after all, with people, something from outer life 
      will
      > > often creep in that one cannot foresee.
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > >
      > > Tarjei
      > >
      >
      
      
      
      ------------------------------------
      
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