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Re: Answer for letter 38657 Part V

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  • ottmar12
    Hi Frank, v. Beckerath s book on the reverse cultus is hard and dry bread indeed, but if you keep chewing it, little by little in a group, it is nourishing.
    Message 1 of 89 , Dec 1, 2008
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      Hi Frank,
      v. Beckerath's book on the reverse cultus is hard and dry bread
      indeed, but if you keep chewing it, little by little in a group, it
      is nourishing.
      The Anthr Soc and its constitution is still a topic, a gruesome topic
      for some. Beckerath quit this question, but he was traumatized by it
      I think and the machinations of the Vorstand and problems, scandals
      go on and on. I think it was last year that the Soc. sold part of the
      shares of Weleda to an investor in Zurich. Steiner wuerde sich im
      Grab umdrehen. The exact details were never published, how much they
      got for how many shares or percent and what the conditions are. Of
      course an investor wants profit and all assurances the investor won't
      interfer is of course nonsense of course . This selling was against
      all rules.
      V Beckerath surely isn't confrontional, just the opposite. His job
      was to start processes in companies, to bring opposing groups
      together, work on a better working climate and he was very successful
      at it. He worked for Waldorf schools and very big companies.
      We'll meet on Dec 13, then I'll give your regards. At the moment we
      don't phone so often. (We sometimes talked about his new book he's

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
      <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
      > <ottmar12@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Gruezi Frank,
      > Grueezi Ottmar,
      > O: thanks for your letter. I do know Gerhard von Beckerath,
      acutally I m
      > > in a small study group with him, studying his book, trying to do
      > > along the lines of the reverse cultus. Do you know this book? It
      s no
      > > easy reading, sometimes dense, cryptic. It is based on his work as
      > > 'communication counsellor' (I hope he would agree with this term).
      > > There is more on the topic of reverse cultus coming from the
      circle of
      > > friends around v Beckerath.
      > F: I regret to say that I have not read the book. Possibly being
      > familiar with his style I unconsciously resisted the impulse to buy
      > ;-) I have read articles and MSs of his on the subject however. I
      > it extremely difficult to practice. Contrary to my authoritarian
      > temperament, I have been involved in many anthropop working groups
      > connected with Waldorf schools which – not always, but often – is a
      > debilitating experience. I still give a one-week course in group
      > dynamics in the Teacher Training Seminar in Buenos Aires, where I
      > to warn the poor students about what they can expect in the real
      > W-world.
      > O: He left the Soc. and quit the work on the constitution, it leads
      > > nowhere...
      > > Did you talk to him about the Christmas Conference and the ES? I
      > > none so involved in this question, involved with his heart I
      mean. I
      > > was one of the happiest moments for me when we had time to talk
      > > it on a long ride to the Bodensee.
      > F: Yes, we did talk about it – and the Constitution Question of
      > course. If you'll send me your email address, and you're interested,
      > I'll send you an essay of his which sums up the very complex
      > Constitution situation from 1924 to 2002 (in German-sorry others).
      > it he mentions a "Memorandum" of 1986 which started the ball
      > I was honored to work together on it with Gerhard and others (see
      > signatures).
      > See my translation of same at
      > http://southerncrossreview.org/39/memorandum-sm.htm . Rudolf Saacke
      > deserves much credit for revealing the facts, but he is
      > confrontational. As you know, von B. is just the opposite and the
      > Vorstand should have begged him for advice instead of going their
      > really stupid way, which resulted in a law suit by a fringe group
      > cost the Society a small fortune in legal fees. Now it's back where
      > started from – 1925.
      > > Thank you, that you confirmed what I said about the 1977 edition
      > > the class. There were big discussions when the new edition
      > > it always sounded like traitor of the mysteries. Even the leaders
      > > the Soc.. in Germany spoke as if the class had always and only
      > > for the 'Lektoren' in the Soc. The publication of the class
      was the
      > > source of conflict between the AS and the Nachlassverein, but
      > > the AS agreed to a common foreword and gave its blessing to the
      > > publication. (I m too lazy to look it up in my copy and all the
      > > discussions in different magazines.)
      > Yes, a blessing with much teeth grinding. In reality they had no
      > choice because the Nachlassverein was going to do it anyway. All
      > is almost unknown and in any case not understood in the
      > non-German-speaking anthroposophical world. The Society still has
      > "Readers", to which only the wanabee initiates have access. To a
      > certain extent it's a control mechanism (sorry for the cynicism).
      > still possible to expel someone from the Society, but a valid reason
      > is required. The School isn't a legally constituted body, so
      > is easy as pie.
      > O: > For the esoteric Jugendkreis it was a much harder blow when
      > > mantras were published, although also these texts were available
      > > those who really wanted to have them.
      > > And the priests of the christian community opposed even more
      > > the publication of 'their' courses. I personally would accept that
      > > their 'brevier' their daily meditation book and mantras shouldn t
      > > been published.
      > > Mrs Wiesberger is in an old people's home now, but still clear in
      > > head.
      > > Herr von Beckerath impressed me deeply when he talked in modest
      > > about his Christ experience for the first time in public, many
      > > ago. He has an interesting biography, sure you know him. A great
      > F: Agreed. Please give him my best regards when you see him. I've
      > out of contact for years. He had no email, probably still doesn't.
      > who uses snail-mail these days?
      > Best,
      > Frank
      > _____________________
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas
      > > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
      > > > <ottmar12@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hi, Ottmar. I find all the parts of these posts very
      interesting - but
      > > > would like to comment only about a piece of this one:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > O: X1 The class texts were not intended for individual study
      > though, but
      > > > > only for groups. The class texts in German were available
      ever since
      > > > > 1977, not only since 1992. Mrs Wiesberger, the grand old lady
      of the
      > > > > Nachlassverwaltung, the prima inter pares, personally told me,
      > that in
      > > > > 1977 they printed a certain number of the class texts, I
      think she
      > > said
      > > > > 7000 and gave 3 or 4000 to the Anthr. Soc. And they always
      kept the
      > > > > right to sell or give a copy of the rest to anyone they
      > right.
      > > > > Now anyone can obtain a complete copy of the class. (In the
      80s you
      > > > > could get pirate copies in Rotterdam.)
      > > >
      > > > F: I joined the Anthroposophical Society here in Argentina back
      in the
      > > > seventies - also became a Class member, which gave me
      the "right" to
      > > > listen to the Reader read. (The class lectures are still read
      > > > once a month in German and in Spanish.) It didn't take me long
      > > > discover that the A.S. here was a bluff. But I thought, what
      the hell,
      > > > nothing works right in Argentina so why should the A.S. be an
      > > > exception. It must be different in Europe. I had already visited
      > > > Dornach several times and was absolutely enthralled by it, and
      by the
      > > > people.
      > > > Then I was transferred by my firm to Zurich, an hour away from
      > > > Goetheanum, and my disillusionment began. I found that there
      were *2*
      > > > Anthroposopical Societies - the Goetheanum one and the Marie
      > > > one - die "anthroposophische Vereinigung in der Schweiz",
      > > > associated with the Nachlass (R. Steiner estate). My children
      > > > the R. Steiner school in Zurich, which was (is?) run by the
      > > > people. I visited the leaders of both groups in an effort to
      > > > where I belonged. The A.S. in Switzerland is a branch of
      Dornach and I
      > > > got the usual wind. The Vereinigung guy was much more
      > > > gave me a thumbnail history on the M. Steiner - Vorstand
      > > > rights to Steiner's work, etc., etc. - a conflict which was
      > > > ongoing, but I understand has now mellowed somewhat. Finally I
      > > > him who he thought would win. "They will," he said - to my
      > > > "Why?" I asked. "They have the Goetheanum," he replied. I
      decided to
      > > > stay away from both groups. Then I moved to Germany, where I
      found the
      > > > A.S. to be simply unbearable, at least to my temperament. I was
      > > > to resign when I received information from von Beckerath about
      > > > A.S.'s twisted Constitution situation. Aha! I thought. That's
      > > > reason. So I fought together with von B. and others to change
      > > > situation, without success. Finally I returned to Argentina,
      where the
      > > > A.S. hasn't changed much as far as I can tell, except that
      there are
      > > > fewer Germans, who have died...no: withered away.
      > > > In 1977 I asked the R.S. Verlag for the Class lectures, and Frau
      > > > Wiesberger said Ok, but they are for group study. Actually,
      that was
      > > > my intention, but it never happened because, well, they're in
      > > > and the few anthropops here who understand German considered
      > > > (consider?) having and using the lectures outside the anointed
      > > > Reader's authority sinful. A Spanish version exists, but is
      kept under
      > > > lock and key by the Reader. Maybe some day... My copy of the
      > > > edition is number 128.
      > > >
      > > > O:
      > > > > g)And another treasure that RS gave us is the reverse cultus,
      > > > > means a form of working and communicating in a serious
      > anthroposophic
      > > > > `study group'. This reverse cultus is not yet explored and
      > > > > practised. The term mystery of human encounter or meeting,
      > > Begegnung in
      > > > > German, rencontre en francais belongs into this context. ( I
      > know one
      > > > > German book that talks of it: Gerhard von Beckerath,
      Gespraech als
      > > > > Kultus subtitle Christlicher Einweihungsweg Wiederkunft
      > > Bruderschaft
      > > > > Verlag am Goetheanum 2005 )
      > > >
      > > > F: You may know that Gerhard von Beckerath, and old friend and a
      > > > super-anthroposophist, resigned from the *General*
      > > > Society in disgust after the recent "Constitution Crisis". I
      > > > several more who did the same.
      > > > Frank
      > > >
      > >
    • val2160
      ... Smith ... want ... income. ... University ... about ... It wasn t the first study of this kind that I found-just the most recent. Here s another article:
      Message 89 of 89 , Dec 18, 2008
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        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
        <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" wdenval@
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > I regret to inform you both that you're TOO OLD for me.
        > >
        > > http://www.physorg.com/news147615590.html
        > > <http://www.physorg.com/news147615590.html#>
        > > Myth about 'dirty old men' supported by science Middle-aged men
        > > younger women, often touting their intelligence and their high
        > > This is shown in research at Gothenburg University and Oxford
        > > that studied 400 lonely hearts ads to see how men and women choose
        > > partners.
        > > <http://physorg.tradepub.com/?pt=cat&page=_INTL>
        > Research
        > > in the theory of evolution includes a number of accepted theories
        > > how men and women choose their partners.
        > They had to spend good money to research that?

        It wasn't the first study of this kind that I found-just the most
        recent. Here's another article:


        A team from Vienna University studied more than 11,600 Swedish men and
        women, aged 45-55, and their partners and found that relationships in
        which the man was six years older than the woman produced the most
        children - an average of 2.2.

        Women placed more emphasis on resources and status - leading them
        typically to choose older men.

        Martin Fieder, who led the team and whose research was published online
        by the Royal Society journal Biology Letters, said: "These findings may
        account for the phenomenon that men typically prefer and mate with women
        younger than themselves, whereas women usually desire and mate with men
        older than themselves.

        "We conclude that the age preference for the partner increases
        individual fitness of both men and women and may thus be an
        evolutionarily acquired trait."

        When the team examined those who had changed partners after the birth of
        their first child they found men ended up with women younger than their
        first choice, while women chose men who were younger than their first
        partner but still a little older than themselves.

        Mr Fieder said: "These findings support the reported age preferences of
        ageing men for increasingly younger women as well as of women for a
        partner just a little older than themselves.

        "We attribute the shift to a younger partner to a potential compensation
        for the fertility loss caused by the individuals' increasing age."
        >Cheese, I'd a telled em
        > fer nutting.

        Sorry to be the one to break it to you but your sample size would be too
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