Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and Lucifer and Christ

Expand Messages
  • dottie zold
    Dear Kim, well, it s an interesting thing isnt it....and I can t believe Bernie Mac is dead. Oh boy.  
    Message 1 of 511 , Nov 2, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Kim, well, it's an interesting thing isnt' it....and I can't believe
      Bernie Mac is dead. Oh boy.
       
       
       
      Anyway, I think we have to look at the planetary configurations for understandings. I think we have to have an understanding/imagination of Boehme in a way..this sense free thinking that is full of potential as we are students of Steiner in the sense where this ongoing evolution of consciousness is upper most in our considerations of why.
       
      I say Boehm, because he is the only one who I have found in all my studies, an originator I would say, of understanding what can be termed 'a birth' or a 'fall' so to speak....he has the inner understanding of God... I mean I can only connect him to the highest in Enochian understanding...it is too unreal to actually even consider he could have encountered this....too insane... really. However, reading him we can know he has had this experience of the inner birth of beingness of the Gods. How is it, again, I can only look to Enoch, who was so to speak, or from what I can consider, an earlier Michaelic essence in the physical world. Enoch is a holdover so to speak for lack of a better word...from just before the Fall or so it seems to me...and this is important because it lends a clear understanding before the Fall, the Fall, and then the Healing of the Fall since Christ.
       
      I think I now understand why it is that the Rabbi's are wrong, and of course those calling Jesus and the Magdalene married due to the point that a Rabbi could not speak unless he was married. What, however, is not understood is that this was a Turning Point in Time as Rudolf Steiner calls it. We are talking about a different kind of marriage then the ones that usually take place here on Earth. And it is for this that a marriage in the old sense did not have to take place: he came for the Shekinah in a sense...well, truth be told I am not sure I have that correct, however, it is still the point of a new marriage in the earthly realm than what had occurred before.
       
      For me the importance of this is that it is logical. It is logical to understand that a new thing occurred and so all the 'he had to have been married' by those who say such things on 'authority' are mistaken. It is clear in the Kaballah that there is another marriage taken place although the words relate to the physical man having to be married in order for the Shekinah to reside in him. One can sense this is for those who are on the journey to understanding, but once understanding, once the Messiah had come, it has changed. The teaching might still bring a 'goodly' way of relating to women and so forth, however it is a physical understanding and the higher one having been missed.
       
      On the four Trees we have to realize the fifth and from an eathly up sphere what this has to do with the fifth chamber of the heart. See, the Sufis have this understanding that there are four chambers to becoming Godly and that Islam is the outer shell. Working further inward, the ways of being in the world, help to create the fifth, which is the highes...I don't have the book with me so I can't speak directly to that understanding but it is something to consider I think when realizing the new organ we are creating and its affect also on the higher beings in our world and then their impact on that which is higher and so on and so forth.
       
      But if we consider Boehm's understandings that I think we can have a better understanding about the below the Tree below the Malkuth and then the one above the Kether as well. I mean we can look at the position of the Sun going up to Neptune, and then we can consider Neptune to the Sun. If we consider the position of the planets in this formation I think we can have a better understanding of the inner workings in a way that will deepen our work, our capacity to rise and to serve.
       
      I am just struck by the imaginations of the Garden scene with Adam and Eve.  I am struck by the Tree and what it represents, and then the Snake.  It is an imagination, a sign, a symbol for the inner truth of what occurs. Well,,,,,i just can't say it yet as its not clear in me but it feels like it is going to be clear...Kim, I am thankful for you. I am thankful for your work and the ponderings that meet mine.
       
      Stll pondering,
      d
       


      --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:
      From: Kim <kimgm@...>
      Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and Lucifer and Christ
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 2:50 AM

      Steiner says that above Kether there are three Sephirots which for the
      higher god's are the same at Manas, Buddhi, and Atma are for us. But
      what and if there is anything above that I don't know.
      
      Below Malkuth we have the elemental beings, created on the old Sun,
      old Moon, Earth. Their least developed parts is electricity,
      magnetism, and atomic bindings, their higher developed beings is
      Salamanders, and so forth, as Steiner and others have mentioned. Each
      Creation Cycle have of course their own Kabbalah Tree of Life, as also
      the Angles has.
      But my knowledge about the Lower Kingdoms is not thorough enough.
      Love,
      Kim
      
      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
      <dottie_z@...> wrote:
      >
      > Kim! please consider that we have a world above Kether and a world
      below Malkuth. And this would be 6! the ultimate number of man!
      Wellllll that is my pondering...and consider this! who is it that God
      is creating, ala Boehme thinking, in Genesis 1! ?
      >  
      > Who is the Being of the Earth? The issiue for many of us considering
      these things is that Ahriman was mixed up with Lucifer during our
      previous lifetimes in a way...it kinda is like those who were born
      previous to Golgotah, previous to Christ being here on Earth in the
      physical body. Ahriman and Lucifer are mixed up in much of even what
      Jakob brings, although I leave the possibility that Ahriman is
      mentioned as a quality and therefore not properly outed as to his
      beingess. 
      >  
      > I am considering the sign of the 2s brought forth in many paintings
      has also to do with the upper and lower parts, unshown in the Kaballah
      properly. And ultimatey for me, 'the above as the below'. 
      >  
      > All good things and much love,
      > Dottie
      >  
      > 
      > 
      > --- On Sat, 11/1/08, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
      > 
      > From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
      > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and Lucifer and Christ
      > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 5:53 PM
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Kim, I want to say that I think I can see Lucifer as the being of
      Karma, or the reason for the karma in a sense: everything Lucifer has
      done has had this great cosmic affect, and on a human level, he would
      be the ultimate karmic being...
      >  
      > I was thinking how it was Lucifer would travel through the center
      and I was thinking of where the transformation came, when he could
      come to Life and that would be when Christ was here. But we can also
      see where His beginnings were three thousand two hundred or so years
      ago as well. We can see how already he was transforming...
      >  
      > Wouldn' t he have had to first go through the elemental world first?
      on his way up?
      > d
      > 
      > --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:
      > 
      > From: Kim <kimgm@...>
      > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and Lucifer and Christ
      > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 2:03 PM
      > 
      > As I wrote, he is the Father and Ahriman the Mother. It is following
      > the idea of Boehme as described in the link you gave, that what we
      > call evil is a necessary part of the development, as also Steiner
      > wrote. Here is a link
      >
      http://ia331305.us.archive.org/0/items/personalchristia00bhuoft/personalchristia00bhuoft.pdf
      > of Jacob Boehmes: PERSONAL CHRISTIANITY, A SCIENCE,The Doctrines of
      > JACOB BOEHME, with Notes by Franz Hartmann.
      > He is the Holy Spirit because he is the highest of the Trinity in the
      > third triangle, as Archai.
      > Love,
      > Kim
      > 
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
      > <dottie_z@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I know, I mean in the physical world. He has to be a part of the
      > Trinity...I imagine that is how he is the Holy Spirit??? I have to
      > have a logical way of seeing it.
      > > d
      > >  
      > > 
      > > 
      > > --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Kim <kimgm@> wrote:
      > > 
      > > From: Kim <kimgm@>
      > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and Lucifer and Christ
      > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 12:56 PM
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > There has always been a trinity, just look at the higher Sephira,
      > the higher spiritual hierarchies, every three in a row is a Trinity,
      > with a Father, Mother, and a Son. When Christ came to Earth there was
      > a new Trinity.
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > Love, Kim
      > > 
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
      > <dottie_z@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Man, I am pressed today, but I want to send the thought that the
      > Trinity began with Lucifer falling....can you consider that?
      > > >  
      > > > d
      > > > 
      > > > --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Kim kimgm@ wrote:
      > > > 
      > > > From: Kim kimgm@
      > > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and Lucifer and
      Christ
      > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 9:21 AM
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > Dottie, Yes I have thought about it, but it is a little
      complicated.
      > > > 
      > > > There are some occurrences which are vital in any discussion of
      > who is who and when of The Trinity and what starts our phases: The
      > Deeds of Christ.
      > > > 
      > > > The Luciferic forces was cast down to man when Michael raised to
      > Archangel (a Deed of Christ). When he entered the Earth cycle he was
      > Angel and had those lunar spirits with him, which still was on the
      > stage of man, the Luciferic host. As he was raised to Archangel by
      > Christ, the lunar men was cast down to us. Therefore the Name Lucifer.
      > He is also 'The Father' as he was the Creator of the Angels back
      on
      > the Old Uranus.
      > > > 
      > > > In 1879, a new Deed of Christ, raises the old Michael to Archai,
      > and becomes The Holy Spirit. This is the reason Steiner Calls Lucifer
      > the New Holy Spirit.
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > Left Pillar, Ahriman, and Right Pillar, Lucifer, The Middle
      > Pillar, The Son, Christ.
      > > > In 1879 Yahve joins the other Elohims.
      > > > 
      > > > Love,
      > > > Kim
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
      > dottie_z@ wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Kim, I was thinking that the four worlds, and the closest
      one to
      > the physical, where Malkuth resides, is the Fall of Lucifer. This is
      > the kingdom of Lucifer ultimately. And so the question is if there is
      > a Tree portion that is below as well? I think it matters if we are to
      > get to the bottom of the Mystery in its totality. Well, maybe you have
      > already and so I am just thinking here. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > So, if Lucifer is rising as the Fallen One, we can see how
      it
      > would ulitmately be Michael and Christ who would be the ones
      > responsible for the return. It's funny to read Jakob and to realize it
      > was this 'loving of ones' sound' in a sense that produced this
      Fall
      > in
      > a way, but interestingly enough, it kinda also involves this portion
      > of 'be careful who you hang out with' as it was not just Lucifer,
      but
      > the hosts that were produced by Lucifer during the creation of his
      > Tone that was overwhelmingly to beautiful and had no concept of
      > stopping the rise so to speak towards the balance. And just through
      > its thrust upward, it produced in 'feeling' and no thought'.
      > Thought
      > came after the Willing and the Feeling in a way. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > Well, main point is that I am wondering about us looking at
      the
      > closest Tree as the one that is Lucifer's Kingdom in all ways and the
      > one below it.
      > > > >  
      > > > > All good things,
      > > > > Dottie
      > > > >  
      > > > > p.s. it is so much better inside me than outside me, this
      > pondering and then trying to put the question into a written word. Oh
      > well.
      > > > > 
      > > > > --- On Fri, 10/31/08, dottie zold dottie_z@ wrote:
      > > > > 
      > > > > From: dottie zold dottie_z@
      > > > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and
      Lucifer
      > and Christ
      > > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 4:39 PM
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > I really really liked the simplicity of this statement:
      > > > >  
      > > > > His most popular work was a collection of some of his
      devotional
      > tracts, called The Way to Christ. In it he said, "For what good does
      > it do the soul to know the Way to God, if it will not walk in it, but
      > goes on in a contrary path? What good will it do the soul to comfort
      > itself with the brotherhood of Christ, with His passion and death, and
      > so flatter itself with the hopes of getting the inheritance thereby,
      > if it will not enter into the brotherly birth, that it may be a true
      > child, born out of the Spirit of Christ, out of His suffering, death
      > and resurrection?" 
      > > > > At times, Boehme's adoration of Christ is very moving.
      > "...He
      > [Christ] must get [his] form in us, or we shall not be in Heaven..." 
      > > > >  
      > > > > I really really like the simplicty. I will say I am shocked
      to
      > smithereens to see the names of his books: all very very similar to
      > the works of Rudolf Steiner. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > All good things,
      > > > > Dottie
      > > > > 
      > > > > --- On Fri, 10/31/08, dottie zold dottie_z@ wrote:
      > > > > 
      > > > > From: dottie zold dottie_z@
      > > > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and
      Lucifer
      > and Christ
      > > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 4:27 PM
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > >
      >
      http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/unification_of_opposites.htm#jacob%20boehme
      > > > >  
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > --- On Fri, 10/31/08, dottie zold dottie_z@ wrote:
      > > > > 
      > > > > From: dottie zold dottie_z@
      > > > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Michael and
      Lucifer
      > and Christ
      > > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 9:36 AM
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > 
      > > > > Dear Friends,
      > > > >  
      > > > > In trying to find Lucifer rightly and how this all came
      about
      > and what his name is, I have to go to the Hebrew tradition, and my
      > Rabbi has no idea who this Lucifer is: maybe I have just not framed
      > the question rightly. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > See, the Jews, or so I understand from my Rabbi and my
      studies,
      > find that Eve reached up to be like her Father in Heaven. Now, if we
      > consider Yahweh in all of this, then we have to consider what
      'Father'
      > she was talking about. It seems to me, boy my Rabbi is going to love
      > me for this thought although not the full on follow through, it seems
      > to me that it would be true if Lucifer was the Father/Mother in a
      > sense as Eve strove to be in freedom/consciousness in the same way
      > that Lucifer did indeed strive. AND it is understood from the Rabbi's,
      > well my Rabbi, that Eve thought about it first as can be seen through
      > the passage in the Bible in Genesis 3:      6 When the woman saw that
      > the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and
      > also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also
      > gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the
      > eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were
      > > > > naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings
      for
      > themselves.
      > > > >  
      > > > > Dottie:
      > > > >  
      > > > > Now, it seems to me that we must reciptulate what we
      understand
      > from our own past biographies before we can move to the new thing. It
      > seems to me that one can claim others are being attavistic or
      > experienced something through this old way, however I think we have a
      > choice to continue receiving something in that manner or to work
      > towards the new. Students of Rudolf Steiner, those with past
      > experiences of the Christ Initiation and those not, have a
      > responsibility to lift themselves to the next portion of their ongoing
      > concious evolution as a human being. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > It seems to me that there are certain things that come
      before me
      > as I seek that are very familiar and why I can connect the dots so
      > easily although initially haphazardly according to this personality of
      > mine and the time I was born in. We each have our own way, some
      > conservative, some not so conservative, and some definitly flying on a
      > wing and a prayer. I tend to be the last one. Yes I am sustained by my
      > goodwill wanting to serve Michael onwards ever to the Christ and
      Sophia. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > I always wanted to know why the 22 represented the feminine
      to
      > me. And when I was seeking to understand th feminine mysteries peeking
      > out of the Fifth Gospel, I kept encountering this 22 and then 222 as a
      > sign that it was actually something deemed via Sophia. That She was
      > allowing this mystery, a part of helping to find this mystery. Lately
      > as I travel through some very interesting waters personally I find
      > this number shows up in front of me at great times of testing, and
      > then I feel graced in a way, a thought of 'I am with you' appears
      and
      > I am knowing things will be well. And sure enough it does indeed move
      > this way. I believe Sergei's book on Anthroposophia, his intro or
      > something important is written on this day, most of the good books
      > pertaining to the Magdalene, and even those not so good, appear with
      > these numbers as well, 22, as do my own screenplays. I mean it was
      > just so apparant but I had no understanding of why until today. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > See, in Genesis 2:22 Woman is created. And that is the
      secret to
      > understanding why this number would appear at times in my life as I am
      > looking at the Feminine mysteries specifically. I was looking there to
      > bring forth the passage I share above regarding the concept of Eve as
      > a thinker. And even in Genesis 1 we find that Havah is gold and is one
      > of the rivers. I mean what is going on and why have we missed it.
      > > > >  
      > > > > I think we missed it for we are not yet in the space of
      sense
      > free thinking. Well, first we have to rise ourselves in thinking to
      > come to sense free thinking if we are to meet this age properly. So,
      > now, it seems to me that we can begin to 'see' this story anew,
      out of
      > Imagination, Inspiration, and Intuition...well, Intuition is a little
      > tricky if we have not handled the antipathies and sympathies yet it
      > seems. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > I was thinking that the Jews have not spoken of and no
      concept
      > of this Lucifer. It reminds me of the point that there was this story
      > I thought was just a legend, and in fact came to understand it was my
      > own biography. Maybe this is what is true for this understanding of
      > the Fall, and of course it would be, as they would be the first to
      > truly separate from all the other Gods! I mean think of that language
      > 'first to truly separate from all the other Gods...that is really
      > interesting if we consider it from various points of view. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > Well, I am going to stop there with this point as it seems
      > something is about to change moving into 46. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > Regarding the Feminine I do want to share a few things I
      worked
      > with last night from Torah of the Mothers: "At the outset we must put
      > aside the most common translations of the name EHYEH as 'the
      Eternal,'
      > or as 'I am what I am.' The changeless duration of eternity, 
      like the
      > more immediate but equally static continuous present, fail to reflect
      > the essence of this Name. Rather, in keeping with the most basic rules
      > of Hebrew grammar, we note that the letter aleph with which EHYEH
      > begins signafies the verbal future tense: (...) I am ready to give
      birth. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > Dottie: She goes on further, and from her words I find the
      > beginning of the birth towards the I Am being birthed here on Earth.
      > As this takes place, this naming from the Burning Bush that was not
      > consumed, she finds it referring to the Exodus, which would be true.
      > And then higher still, I believe we can find when it is that it
      > becomes fully outwardly known that God's Presence, the Shekinah at
      > that time, I can imagine the archetypal Soul path, pardon my
      > expression, will now move through the various stages towards the whole
      > epoch fullness of the seven,  ulitmately, and therefore to a prayalaya
      > after it has been completed. Oh boy dottie. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > On the right and left we have t his from the same woman Ora
      > Wiskind Elper: Later in mystical thought, the attributes of din and
      > rahamim - of censure and mercy - acquire explicit gender
      > differentitation. The feminine 'left side of judgement and severity is
      > often portrayed in dialectical opposition to the masculine 'right
      > side' of grace. 
      > > > >  
      > > > > Okay, I gotta run.
      > > > >  
      > > > > All good things,
      > > > > Dottie
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > ------------------------------------
      > 
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      
      
      
      ------------------------------------
      
      Yahoo! Groups Links
      
      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/
      
      <*> Your email settings:
          Individual Email | Traditional
      
      <*> To change settings online go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/join
          (Yahoo! ID required)
      
      <*> To change settings via email:
          mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow-digest@yahoogroups.com 
          mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
      
      <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          anthroposophy_tomorrow-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
      <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      
      

    • ottmar12
      Hi Kim, here is a list of Wimbauer s books, all in German http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm I agree that most anthro writers just work out what Steiner
      Message 511 of 511 , Jan 10, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Kim,
        here is a list of Wimbauer's books, all in German
        http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm
        I agree that most anthro writers just work out what Steiner had said,
        some dilute it, make it homeopathic, some condense it on certain
        topics and make things clearer. Wimbauer belongs to the later
        category. However there have always been antho occultist who found
        out, researched or revealed new esoteric, occult facts. One of the
        best known today is Judith von Halle, just take her first book 'Und
        waere er nicht auferstanden..' And if he had not been raised or her
        latest book Der Abstieg in die Erdschichten, The descend into or
        through the spheres of the Earth, clarifying 666, Asuras, Sorat among
        others. Parts of these books are first class new occult facts, but as
        always, there is also rejection and jealousy towards her work. And
        there are other less known occultists in Anthroposophy, of course
        controversial, but you have to find out yourself and decide.
        I personally would be very slow in saying Goethe is Praxiteles or some
        other sculptor, I don't want to be connected with this statement.
        Kind regards Ottmar


        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Otmar,
        >
        > I am danish, and have seen German tv in my teens and read computer
        > literature, SF and Steiner afterward in German. As the Incarnational
        > wave split in Germany, where some moved to Scandinavia and the rest to
        > US, I should have used the language beforehand:)
        >
        > My mother were a Rosicrucian student and some of my Anthro-books I
        > inherited from her. Her teacher and close friend was educated at
        > Gotheanum, but was not an Anthroposoph. Through him we became aquainted
        > with Steiner and Emil Bock, his unpublished commentaries to the
        > Evangelies and his translation of the Evangelies, to be more specific.
        > Most of what I have read by other Anthroposophic authors was just words
        > repeating what Steiner said without any new thoughts, eventually with
        > some stuff of Steiners i hadn't read before.
        >
        > Who does Wimbauer mention? Whats the name of the book? Goethe und die
        > soziale Mission Mitteleuropas?
        >
        > Yes, the book was by Sigrid Damm. I learned about it through an article
        > by our Foreign Minister, Per Stig Møller.
        >
        > Around Goethe (Praxiteles) we have certain persons: A. F. Oeser,
        > Herder, Schiller(Skopas?), Christiane(Phryne?), Ottilie, Charlotte, and
        > Carl August. They are somewhat characteristic in their relation to
        > Goethe, so they may be possible to recognize.
        >
        >
        > * Goethe has a working relation to a man in power (Carl August),
        > within management and politics.
        > * Has a working relation to Schiller, within art.
        > * Women play a strong part in his life. He is born in Virgo, which
        > ads flawor to the context.
        > * He has knowledge about the esoteric from a reasonably young age
        > which means that he have had it through many lives.
        > Kind Regards,
        > Kim
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Kim
        > >
        > > I can't tell, not even suggest how many incarnations there were
        > > between Goethe and the Greek sculptor, I just wanted to talk about
        > > possible karmic layers. Whether there were these incarnations is open.
        > > Interesting for me, that it was so difficult for Steiner to find these
        > > incarnations, although he was so closely aquainted with Goethes work.
        > >
        > > Only books of Bock beside Steiner? Why in all the world Emil Bock? Is
        > > there a reason that you don't have other anthro books? How come you
        > > read German, I mean 100 years ago Germany was a leading nation in
        > > science and culture and the language learned in many European
        > > countries, but today learning German is very rare. What nationality
        > > are you?
        > >
        > > Try the Wimbauer booklet on Goethe which I mentioned, there you find
        > > another incarnation, according to an oral tradition. You'll be pleased
        > > to find out how good you sensed the right direction with the Hebrew
        > > connection.
        > >
        > > Kim:A good book is "Christiane und Goethe. Eine Recherche", Insel
        > > Verlag 1998, concerning his relationship to women, and especially to
        > > Christiane Vulpius.
        > > Ottmar: Isn't that book written by a woman Sigrid Damm or so. I
        > > attended a public reading of her. Few lives are as well documented as
        > > Goethes, think of the Sophien Ausgabe of Goethes works, letters etc
        > > 150 volumes or so plus hundreds of books on his life. Even today new
        > > things come up, just think of Anna Amalia, who some think was Goethes
        > > true love, not Frau von Stein or someone else. Then there is a new
        > > good book on Goethes encounter with Napoleon. Some years ago I enjoyed
        > > that book on Goethes first journey to Italy, with a lot of new
        > > material and insight by an Italian author. Goethes life would
        > > completely fill the life of 10 `normal' people. Just think of the
        > > antipods Schiller-Goethe and how their friendship was possible and
        > > what that means for the future of mankind, these 2 `streams' making
        > > friends.
        > > Kind regards Ottmar
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Ottmar,
        > > >
        > > > Those leads you mention tells that he has many incarnations before
        > him,
        > > > and that the missing incarnations before Goethe also has to be a
        > > > somewhat knowledgeable person in the esoteric. But the longer we go
        > back
        > > > in time the less we generally know about their esoteric knowledge,
        > > > except if they are part of a writing or is a writer.
        > > >
        > > > Another point is his relation to woman, I think that is a serious
        > lead
        > > > for his male incarnations, but I don't know if it can tell anything
        > > > about his female incarnations, except that they were needed:) There
        > > > could be a hint here to his Hebrew incarnations also.
        > > >
        > > > The key themes in a persons life, both small and big, follows the
        > > > incarnations. The lesser themes are somtimes easier to find in old
        > > > documents.
        > > >
        > > > I have a good library of books by Rudolf Steiner and Emil Bock, but
        > only
        > > > a few others of anthro origin.
        > > >
        > > > I read German fluently.
        > > >
        > > > A good book is "Christiane und Goethe. Eine Recherche", Insel Verlag
        > > > 1998, concerning his relationship to women, and especially to
        > Christiane
        > > > Vulpius.
        > > >
        > > > Goethe could have lived at the time of Plato's incarnation HROSWITHA
        > von
        > > > Gandersheim [Hrotsvit, Roswitha], (* um 935 im Herzogtum Sachsen,
        > †
        > > > um 975 in Gandersheim), possible as a woman.
        > > >
        > > > The other day I read about the matter falling into the center and
        > > > reappering out in the cosmos again. Reminds me of the black holes.
        > > >
        > > > Kind Regards,
        > > > Kim
        > > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
        > <ottmar12@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Kim,
        > > > >
        > > > > here are a few more ideas about Goethe. When we look at Goethe's
        > work
        > > > > we can discover different hints to various karmic `layers'.
        > > > > -The `greek layer' can be seen in his works that are filled with
        > fully
        > > > > modelled, nearly sculptured figures, picture-like sensual images,
        > > > > perfect in a beautiful form. There is also his longing for the
        > > > > southern light, which you can find in Hölderlin as well.
        > > > > -Think of his hymnus to Isis. Goethe was initiated into Egyptian !
        > > > > mysteries (GA 144, 6 Feb 1913)
        > > > > -In his old age there was this layer of old Rome, he had his codex
        > of
        > > > > classical art, was unable to see the new times in the young.
        > > > > -Then there are the middle ages, think of the Götz and the
        > early
        > > > > Faust, his adoration of the works from the gothic period.
        > > > > -There is the Renaissance Goethe, West-East Divan etc.
        > > > > -The paracelsist Goethe, practising alchemy and kabbalah, the
        > expert
        > > > > in magical works.
        > > > > -Rudolf Steiner stresses, that Goethe was inspired through
        > rosecrucian
        > > > > ideas, but that Goethe was not a Rosecrucian in his
        > Tagesbewusstsein,
        > > > > in his day consciousness, that Goethe was a subconscious initiate.
        > > > > (GA93 22 May 1907, GA 99 12 Jan 1919, GA 188)
        > > > > I wonder whether you speak German and whether you have a good
        > anthro
        > > > > library at hand. I found 2 references to lectures which are not
        > in my
        > > > > bookcase: Walter Cloos, Schicksalswirken in Goethes Lebenslauf and
        > > > > Alexander von Bernus, Goethes Urbegegnung (in the book Alchemie
        > und
        > > > > Heilkunst, Nuernberg 1969)
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Rudolf Steiner , Eliphas Levis and the seventh seal
        > > > >
        > > > > For me it was interesting again to read this comparison of Goethe
        > and
        > > > > Eliphas Levis, going through the spheres of Jupiter. Of course we
        > know
        > > > > much about Steiner relating to Goethe, but little is known about
        > his
        > > > > relationship to Eliphas Levi. (Most often Eliphas Levis is simply
        > > > > denounced as a left-hand occultist, slave of Rome and alike)
        > Steiner
        > > > > somehow continued or fulfilled the work of Goethe and in a very
        > > > > special aspect that of Eliphas Levi. Sure you know the seven seals
        > of
        > > > > the apocalypse, which are reproduced in different books. Few
        > > > > anthropops however know that the first 6 seals were given by
        > Eliphas
        > > > > Levi (at least I couldn't find an earlier publication) and only
        > the
        > > > > seventh seal was given by Rudolf Steiner. In Eliphas Levis print,
        > the
        > > > > seventh seal is apresented as a book with 7 seals. Tragically, as
        > > > > often in anthroposophical matters, few anthropops know this or
        > even
        > > > > care and what is worse, only the original drawning of Rudolf
        > Steiner
        > > > > is complete (see GA 284), all later reproductions, based on Clara
        > > > > Rettich's drawing, are defective. At the center of the cubus,
        > there
        > > > > must be a circle, an imaginative point, to which matter collapsed
        > > > > before it is projected to the heaven of stars; the turning point
        > so to
        > > > > speak is missing! I told Hella Wiesberger in Dornach some 25 years
        > > > > ago, she wasn't interested. You see, Rudolf Steiner also finished
        > a
        > > > > work done by Eliphas Levi (and you, Kim, make Rudolf Steiner
        > happy,
        > > > > verify what I wrote and then correct your seventh seal in GA 104
        > or
        > > > > wherever J )
        > > > > Kind regards Ottmar
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Ottmar,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Of Skopas, Lysippos and Praxiteles I would choose Praxiteles as
        > the
        > > > one.
        > > > > > The Art of Praxiteles II
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        <http://books.google.com/books?id=T8iSrsQ6EogC&printsec=frontcover&hl=da\
        > \
        > > > \
        > > > > > &source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0> .
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I found these two documents:
        > > > > > GREEK SCULPTURE AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS
        > > > > > <http://www.library.umass.edu/benson/jbgsalt.html> A
        > > > > > Psycho-Historical Investigation, J. L. Benson, Amherst,
        > > > Massachusetts:
        > > > > > University of Massachusetts Amherst Libraries,2000
        > > > > > And
        > > > > >
        > > > > > GREEK COLOR THEORY AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS
        > > > > > <http://www.library.umass.edu/benson/jbgcalt.html> A
        > > > Cosmological
        > > > > > Interpretation,J. L. Benson, Amherst, Massachusetts: University
        > of
        > > > > > Massachusetts, Amherst Libraries, 2000
        > > > > > The first referencing Greek Sculptors, and both referencing
        > Steiner
        > > > and
        > > > > > Goethe.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > You mention the Mexican incarnation, but that was another person
        > > > which
        > > > > > was compared to Goethe's incarnation.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Goethe has, I think, two incarnations as woman before his
        > > > incarnation as
        > > > > > Goethe, if I read Steiner right.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Steiner mentions that before the incarnation with the
        > initiation,
        > > > the
        > > > > > person goes through incarnations as Sculptor, Composer, Painter,
        > and
        > > > > > Writer. Is that the right sequence and where has he written
        > about
        > > > it? It
        > > > > > could be a lead for the intervening incarnations.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Regards,
        > > > > > Kim
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
        > > > <ottmar12@>
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi Kim,
        > > > > > > good that you addressed me by my name. I don't have the time
        > to
        > > > read
        > > > > > > all letters on this list, but I couldn't miss yours of course.
        > > > > > > I don't have the electronic version of the GA and the online
        > > > search
        > > > > > > machine is still not working. I could look up in a big e
        > > > > > > encyclopedia, the print version is 6500 pages and the booklet
        > of
        > > > > > > Wimbauer, I mentioned. There I found references to the GA and
        > the
        > > > page
        > > > > > > number, but they refer to pre 1985 German editions. This is
        > what I
        > > > > > found:
        > > > > > > GA 144, page 74 G lived in Greece,a philosopher and a
        > sculptor.
        > > > (There
        > > > > > > are 3 great famous sculptors, Phidias, Praxiteles and Skopas.
        > I
        > > > don't
        > > > > > > know whether G was one of them, I have never studied this
        > matter.)
        > > > > > > Steiner 144,72 There was most problably only 1 incarnation
        > between
        > > > the
        > > > > > > Greek and Goethe incarnation which I (RS) wasn't able to find.
        > > > > > > GA 239, Lecture 9 June 1924 at the very end, there RS speaks
        > of
        > > > > > > several! incarnations between Old Greece and Goethe and also
        > of a
        > > > > > > Mexican incarnation.
        > > > > > > Also GA 144 6 Feb 1913 and GA 236, 1 June 1924
        > > > > > > Of course Rudolf Steiner often spoke about Goethes Karma GA
        > 172/41
        > > > and
        > > > > > > following GA 310,26 following
        > > > > > > I remember spending much time with Goethe's books as a very
        > young
        > > > man,
        > > > > > > especially his ' autobiography' Dichtung und Wahrheit, then
        > > > Steiner's
        > > > > > > comments, but we mustn't forget, that Goehte was quite
        > > > konservative,
        > > > > > > more an abelitic soul. See the contrast to Beethoven, when
        > Goethe
        > > > and
        > > > > > > Beethoven met the Kaiser when walking in the park. Typical! We
        > can
        > > > > > > learn a lot by studying great individuals, from what they said
        > and
        > > > did
        > > > > > > and from their biographies. And it is enjoyable reading. G
        > lived
        > > > in
        > > > > > > apocalyptic times, French Revolution, he wanted to feel the
        > breath
        > > > of
        > > > > > > death when he attended the battle of Valmy, the encounter of
        > > > Napoleon
        > > > > > > and Goethe etc. And we live in apocalyptic times, too.
        > > > > > > Tell me, tell us when you find out something about Goethe
        > which is
        > > > > > > new, touching, important.
        > > > > > > Ottmar
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@
        > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hi Ottmar,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > In GA 138 as seen in 'Platon
        > > > <http://wiki.anthroposophie.net/Platon>
        > > > > > '
        > > > > > > > I have found the following (In german):
        > > > > > > > Nun habe ich ja schon vor einiger Zeit hier davon
        > gesprochen,
        > > > > > daß,
        > > > > > > > als Plato noch lebte, nicht gerade in Platos
        > Philosophenschule,
        > > > aber
        > > > > > > > unter Platos Einfluß — ich habe es sogar schon vor
        > > > > > Jahrzehnten
        > > > > > > > erwähnt —, herangewachsen ist ein Künstler, nicht
        > aus
        > > > > > > > platonischer Philosophie, aber aus platonischem Geiste
        > heraus,
        > > > der
        > > > > > dann,
        > > > > > > > nachdem er durch andere Inkarnationen gegangen ist, als
        > Goethe
        > > > > > > > wiedergeboren worden ist, und der karmisch dasjenige, was
        > aus
        > > > den
        > > > > > > > früheren Inkarnationen, namentlich aber aus der
        > > > Plato-Strömung
        > > > > > > > kam, in der Jupiter-Region umgewandelt hat, so daß es
        > > > diejenige
        > > > > > Art
        > > > > > > > von Weisheit werden konnte, die eben bei Goethe alles
        > > > durchdringt.
        > > > > > > > Which says that Goethe has incarnations between the two
        > > > mentioned
        > > > > > > > incarnations.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > It don't say anything about his occupation, but you say that
        > he
        > > > was
        > > > > > a
        > > > > > > > Sculptor?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Steiner mentions that the occupations in the incarnations
        > before
        > > > the
        > > > > > > > incarnation where the individual is initiated follows some
        > > > rules,
        > > > > > ..,
        > > > > > > > sculptor,...., painter, and author. Do any of you know where
        > > > Steiner
        > > > > > > > wrote about that?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > It is probable that Goethe incarnated about the same times
        > and
        > > > > > > > localities as Plato.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Happy New Year,
        > > > > > > > Kim
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
        > > > > > <ottmar12@>
        > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > On Goethe's incarnations
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Steiner talked on different occasions about Goethe's
        > previous
        > > > > > > > > incarnations. A lot was written about Goethe, see for
        > example
        > > > > > Herbert
        > > > > > > > > Wimbauer wrote in his small book `Goethe und die soziale
        > > > Mission
        > > > > > > > > Mitteleuropas' http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm
        > > > > > > > > Goethe was initiated in the old Egypt Mysteries, see
        > Goethe s
        > > > Hym
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > Isis RS, GA 144, 6 Feb. 1919
        > > > > > > > > Then Goethe was a great sculptor in old Greece, in a
        > platonic
        > > > > > > > > atmosphere. GA 239, 9. June 1924
        > > > > > > > > RS said that he couldn't find any incarnations between old
        > > > Greece
        > > > > > ang
        > > > > > > > > 18 th / 19 th century incarnation.
        > > > > > > > > These answers are too short of course, to me it feels I
        > gave a
        > > > > > > > > skeleton with the lines above. Goethe was such a rich
        > > > > > individuality.
        > > > > > > > > What about his freemason inclination, why his hate against
        > > > > > Cagliostro,
        > > > > > > > > his rather conservative attitude in social and state
        > questions
        > > > in
        > > > > > > > > contrast to Schiller, Steiner also spoke of female
        > > > incarnations,
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > there is an oral tradition of a Steiner remark, that
        > Goethe
        > > > was
        > > > > > one of
        > > > > > > > > the most prominent figures in the Old Testament.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > So, what does the teacher in me say? No, guys n gals, no
        > easy
        > > > > > google
        > > > > > > > > answers, but thorough study and dedication.
        > > > > > > > > Ottmar
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
        > > > > > > > > dottie_z@ wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Hi Dan, thank you so much for the links. I have found
        > > > something
        > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > > helps me in a debate as well regarding thy whys and
        > whatfores
        > > > of
        > > > > > > > > 'rules' of spiritual science.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > I think it interesting to consider Goethe also as one of
        > the
        > > > > > > > > disciples. This is the feel I get when looking at the
        > > > pictures.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > All good things,
        > > > > > > > > > Dottie
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Google books few pages preview:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kskf3
        > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5ehqsy
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.