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Anthroposophical Guidelines - 121

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  • Simone
    Anthroposophical Guidelines – 121 (In relation to the foregoing description of the cosmic thoughts in Michael s activity and in Ahriman s.) 121. One has not
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 27, 2008
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      Anthroposophical Guidelines – 121

      (In relation to the foregoing description of the cosmic thoughts in
      Michael's activity and in Ahriman's.)

      121. One has not yet comprehended what is active in the world and the
      meaning for the world of these activities, for example cosmic
      thoughts, if one goes no farther than these activities themselves. For
      one must perceive the being from whom these activities originate. For
      example whether the cosmic thoughts are brought into and through the
      world by Michael or Ahriman.

       (Translated by Frank Thomas Smith,  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_world/ )

       

      Anthroposophical Leading Thoughts – 121

      (in connection with the foregoing account of the World-Thoughts in the Working of Michael and in the Working of Ahriman)

      121. We have not fully understood the significance or the Universe of something that is working there — for instance, of the Cosmic Thoughts — so long as we stop short at the thing itself. We must also look to recognize the Beings from whom it proceeds. Thus for the Cosmic Thoughts we must see whether it is Michael or Ahriman who bears them out into the world and through the world.

      (http://www.rsarchive.org/)

    • Frank Thomas Smith
      112. The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in the following stages: 1. through its own primordial essence; 2. through the revelation
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 22, 2012
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        112. The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in the following stages:

        1. through its own primordial essence;

        2. through the revelation of this essence;

        3. through its effects, when the essence retreats from the revelation.

        4. through the work, when the divine is no longer in the visible universe, but only its forms.

        Translator's Note: The word essence can also be translated as being. In fact, literally it is: being.

         

      • Kathleen Bonneau
        Can anyone explain what Steiner means by this? 112. The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in the following stages:1. through its own
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 22, 2012
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          Can anyone explain what Steiner means by this?

          112. The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in the following stages:

          1. through its own primordial essence;

          2. through the revelation of this essence;

          3. through its effects, when the essence retreats from the revelation.

          4. through the work, when the divine is no longer in the visible universe, but only its forms.

          Translator's Note: The word essence can also be translated as being. In fact, literally it is: being.

           


          If primordial essence is the Ground of Being, which would be Brahman, or God, then isn't it omnipresent?  If so, how can it retreat, from revelation or  from anything ?  By retreat from revelation is he speaking of the origin of illusion, or the primordial ignorance, avidya?  

          If the divine is omnipresent, changeless, eternal and all pervasive, then essence would be present even in the mind  which does not see or recognize it.

          Also in number four-- is it possible for the divine to be absent from anything, let alone the visible universe?  

          What does it mean that it is present in forms(archetypes?)  but not the visible universe?   

          The Heart Sutra, says "form is emptiness, emptiness is form, emptiness is no other than form, form is no other than emptiness."  

          In this context, emptiness might be also defined as the primordial ground of being.

          I am asking because I've been wondering  if Steiner's view is basically in harmony with a non-dual Buddhist or Vedantic perspective.  I think it is quite positive that he separated himself from the Theosophists (Blavatsky), who did not have a valid understanding of Buddhism, with the so called channeled messages from Koot Hoomi the Tibetan etc... 


          Kathleen



          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          From: fts.trasla@...
          Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:49:43 +0000
          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Anthroposophical Guidelines - 112

           

          112. The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in the following stages:

          1. through its own primordial essence;

          2. through the revelation of this essence;

          3. through its effects, when the essence retreats from the revelation.

          4. through the work, when the divine is no longer in the visible universe, but only its forms.

          Translator's Note: The word essence can also be translated as being. In fact, literally it is: being.

           


        • ted.wrinch
          Hi Kathleen, I didn t get around to trying to relate your posting on your friend s article to Steiner but I think that the content of the relation would be
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 22, 2012
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            Hi Kathleen,

            I didn't get around to trying to relate your posting on your friend's article to Steiner but I think that the content of the relation would be similar to the answer to your current question on the meaning of Frank's post. What's always at the back of any kind of schema like this in Steiner's thought is his concept of the evolution, and then involution, of human consciousness, and with it the change in the correlated forms of the external world. You'll probably aware of this, but a basic outline of a possible process might be (this is just what I remember and I'm no expert on any of this):

            1) The primordial essence is un-manifest and self-contained.

            2) One of the spiritual hierarchies acts in a manner that is characteristic with its level and the stage of cosmic evolution to manifest its being, and by so doing create new being for us (for instance, the Thrones gave up their being to the Seraphim, and created inner time and outer warmth (which is our first existence as 'men') on Old Saturn, when our cosmos first became cognisable). This is a 'lifting of the veil' (revelation) of its being.

            3) The initial act of creation is completed and we are left to evolve under its continuing influence (in my example we, the outer warmth, are left to evolve further in the absence of further direct creative intervention by the Thrones, and nascent sensory organs are developed and we begin to perceive through them and gain a rudimentary inner life).

            4) The further severing of connection with the creating hierarchy is completed and we sense this as a retreat of the divine from the external world.

            Some of the above process could be repeated, perhaps with more direct and immediate relevance, for Steiner's account of the post-Atlantean cultural epoch evolutions. I think that 3 might correspond to the Indian, Persian and Egyptian periods and 4 to the Roman and our own.

            In answer to your more detailed questions:

            a) "If primordial essence is the Ground of Being, which would be Brahman, or God, then isn't it omnipresent?  If so, how can it retreat, from revelation or  from anything ?  By retreat from revelation is he speaking of the origin of illusion, or the primordial ignorance, avidya?  "

            He's speaking of avidya, or maya - see my answer for c).

            b) "If the divine is omnipresent, changeless, eternal and all pervasive, then essence would be present even in the mind  which does not see or recognize it."

            In Steiner's system, the 'divine' is articulate (there are gods) and *evolves* alongside us and so is not 'changeless' (though at the level of the Trinity and immediately below it may no longer be possible for us to understand this change). Indeed we are the result of their deeds during phases 1 to 3, and our progress is the aim of their lives ('man is the religion of the gods', Steiner).

            c) "Also in number four-- is it possible for the divine to be absent from anything, let alone the visible universe?"

            Not absolutely but in appearance it is. We are just past the end of Kali Yuga, by the end of which the divine had apparently abandoned creation and left itself with access to its world only though a still, small voice within us. The external, the material appeared in dazzling complexity and wonder and appeared to be sufficient to have created us all by itself (the maya of materialism). Matthew Arnold expresses it peerlessly and I quote his poem at the end.

            d) "What does it mean that it is present in forms(archetypes?)  but not the visible universe?

            The Heart Sutra, says "form is emptiness, emptiness is form, emptiness is no other than form, form is no other than emptiness."  

            I take 'emptiness' in the Sutra to refer to the pleni-potential of 'the void', which is a void only to the physical senses. From the perspective of our (mostly un/under-developed today) spiritual senses the 'void' refers to the fullness of form and content of the higher spiritual world (devachan), above the astral, the first level of spiritual being. The visible or physical universe in our day does not reveal spirit; one has to look up to find the divine.

            " I am asking because I've been wondering if Steiner's view is basically in harmony with a non-dual Buddhist or Vedantic perspective."

            His was a view of spiritual monism, which I would say has the agreement you wonder about.

            Hope that my free-form rambling makes some kind of sense; I'm sure others can add to, supplement or correct it!

            T.

            Ted Wrinch

            Dover Beach

            The sea is calm tonight,
            The tide is full, the moon lies fair
            Upon the straits; on the French coast the light
            Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand,
            Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay.
            Come to the window, sweet is the night air!
            Only, from the long line of spray
            Where the sea meets the moon-blanched land,
            Listen! you hear the grating roar
            Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,
            At their return, up the high strand,
            Begin, and cease, and then again begin,
            With tremulous cadence slow, and bring
            The eternal note of sadness in.

            Sophocles long ago
            Heard it on the Agean, and it brought
            Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow
            Of human misery; we
            Find also in the sound a thought,
            Hearing it by this distant northern sea.

            The Sea of Faith
            Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
            Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
            But now I only hear
            Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
            Retreating, to the breath
            Of the night wind, down the vast edges drear
            And naked shingles of the world.

            Ah, love, let us be true
            To one another! for the world, which seems
            To lie before us like a land of dreams,
            So various, so beautiful, so new,
            Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
            Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
            And we are here as on a darkling plain
            Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
            Where ignorant armies clash by night.

            Matthew Arnold, 1867



            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen Bonneau <kahabo3@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Can anyone explain what Steiner means by this?
            > 112. The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in the following stages:1. through its own primordial essence;2. through the revelation of this essence;3. through its effects, when the essence retreats from the revelation.4. through the work, when the divine is no longer in the visible universe, but only its forms.Translator's Note: The word essence can also be translated as being. In fact, literally it is: being.
            > If primordial essence is the Ground of Being, which would be Brahman, or God, then isn't it omnipresent? If so, how can it retreat, from revelation or from anything ? By retreat from revelation is he speaking of the origin of illusion, or the primordial ignorance, avidya?
            > If the divine is omnipresent, changeless, eternal and all pervasive, then essence would be present even in the mind which does not see or recognize it.
            > Also in number four-- is it possible for the divine to be absent from anything, let alone the visible universe?
            > What does it mean that it is present in forms(archetypes?) but not the visible universe?
            > The Heart Sutra, says "form is emptiness, emptiness is form, emptiness is no other than form, form is no other than emptiness."
            > In this context, emptiness might be also defined as the primordial ground of being.
            > I am asking because I've been wondering if Steiner's view is basically in harmony with a non-dual Buddhist or Vedantic perspective. I think it is quite positive that he separated himself from the Theosophists (Blavatsky), who did not have a valid understanding of Buddhism, with the so called channeled messages from Koot Hoomi the Tibetan etc...
            >
            > Kathleen
            >
            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            > From: fts.trasla@...
            > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:49:43 +0000
            > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Anthroposophical Guidelines - 112
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            > 112.
            > The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in
            > the following stages:
            > 1.
            > through its own primordial essence;
            > 2.
            > through the revelation
            > of this essence;
            > 3.
            > through its effects,
            > when
            > the essence retreats from the revelation.
            > 4.
            > through the work,
            > when
            > the divine is no longer in the visible universe, but only its forms.Translator's Note: The word essence can also be translated as being. In fact, literally it is: being.
            >
          • Frank Thomas Smith
            ... K: If primordial essence is the Ground of Being, which would be Brahman, or God, then isn t it omnipresent? If so, how can it retreat, from revelation or
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 22, 2012
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              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen Bonneau <kahabo3@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Can anyone explain what Steiner means by this?
              > "112. The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in the following stages:1. through its own primordial essence;2. through the revelation of this essence;3. through its effects, when the essence retreats from the revelation.4. through the work, when the divine is no longer in the visible universe, but only its forms.Translator's Note: The word essence can also be translated as being. In fact, literally it is: being."

              K: If primordial essence is the Ground of Being, which would be Brahman, or God, then isn't it omnipresent? If so, how can it retreat, from revelation or from anything ? By retreat from revelation is he speaking of the origin of illusion, or the primordial ignorance, avidya?

              F: Steiner is talking here about the spiritual beings who created and guided humanity along its path of evolution. The point came in that process when man had to become *free*. But how can one be free if he/she is led by the hand by mama or papa god(s). SO at that point the gods retreat from guidance of man - not retreat from being or existence. Revelation was a stage of the past. In other words, humanity no longer receives revelations...except for exceptions, I suppose.

              K: If the divine is omnipresent, changeless, eternal and all pervasive, then essence would be present even in the mind which does not see or recognize it.

              F: Ok.

              K: Also in number four-- is it possible for the divine to be absent from anything, let alone the visible universe?

              F: I think what I wrote above covers this. If not, pls advise.

              K: What does it mean that it is present in forms(archetypes?) but not the visible universe?

              F: I think it means nature - which is obviously the work of divine creation.

              K: The Heart Sutra, says "form is emptiness, emptiness is form, emptiness is no other than form, form is no other than emptiness."
              In this context, emptiness might be also defined as the primordial ground of being.

              F: Steiner is not talking about emptiness here, only the retreat of the gods as humanity's mentors.

              K: I am asking because I've been wondering if Steiner's view is basically in harmony with a non-dual Buddhist or Vedantic perspective. I think it is quite positive that he separated himself from the Theosophists (Blavatsky), who did not have a valid understanding of Buddhism, with the so called channeled messages from Koot Hoomi the Tibetan etc...

              F: I don't know if one could say "in harmony with..", Steiner was essentially a western philosopher and Christian initiate. Philosophically he defended monism.

              >
              >
              > 112.
              > The divine-spiritual takes effect in the cosmos in various ways in
              > the following stages:
              > 1.
              > through its own primordial essence;
              > 2.
              > through the revelation
              > of this essence;
              > 3.
              > through its effects,
              > when
              > the essence retreats from the revelation.
              > 4.
              > through the work,
              > when
              > the divine is no longer in the visible universe, but only its forms.Translator's Note: The word essence can also be translated as being. In fact, literally it is: being.
              >
            • Kathleen Bonneau
              Many thanks, Ted and Frank, for taking the time to post such thorough answers to my questions. I see there is quite a different vocabulary and approach in
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 22, 2012
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                Many thanks, Ted and Frank, for taking the time to post such thorough answers to my questions.

                 I see there is quite a different vocabulary and approach in Anthroposophy.  In general Buddhism and Vedanta, which I'm more familiar with, tend to avoid metaphysics.   So the idea of Monistic gods, Thrones and seraphim is rather new.   

                I've never lost my interest in Christianity and occasionally fish for non Jesuitical and non zionist and mainstream ideas on the subject.   

                I'll have to look at some of Steiner's books next time I'm at the store.  I've only read his lectures on bees!

                And, very glad to hear that you think we are out of the Kali Yug.. I hope you're right!    


                Kathleen




                To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                From: fts.trasla@...
                Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 23:56:29 +0000
                Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Anthroposophical Guidelines - 112

                 


                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen Bonneau <kahabo3@...> wrote:
                >
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                > Can anyone explain what Steiner means by this?


              • Frank Thomas Smith
                ... Kathleen, A good introduction is Christianity as Mystical Fact - Click for a free Ebook. http://southerncrossreview.org/Ebooks/ebchristianity.htm Good
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 23, 2012
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                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen Bonneau <kahabo3@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Many thanks, Ted and Frank, for taking the time to post such thorough answers to my questions.
                  > I see there is quite a different vocabulary and approach in Anthroposophy. In general Buddhism and Vedanta, which I'm more familiar with, tend to avoid metaphysics. So the idea of Monistic gods, Thrones and seraphim is rather new.
                  > I've never lost my interest in Christianity and occasionally fish for non Jesuitical and non zionist and mainstream ideas on the subject.
                  > I'll have to look at some of Steiner's books next time I'm at the store. I've only read his lectures on bees!
                  > And, very glad to hear that you think we are out of the Kali Yug.. I hope you're right!
                  >
                  > Kathleen

                  Kathleen,
                  A good introduction is "Christianity as Mystical Fact" - Click for a free Ebook. http://southerncrossreview.org/Ebooks/ebchristianity.htm
                  Good hunting,
                  Frank



                  >
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                  > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: fts.trasla@...
                  > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 23:56:29 +0000
                  > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Anthroposophical Guidelines - 112
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                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen Bonneau <kahabo3@> wrote:
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                  > > Can anyone explain what Steiner means by this?
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                • ted.wrinch
                  You might also find his lectures on the Bhagavad Gita and the Pauline Epistles of interest:
                  Message 8 of 29 , Mar 23, 2012
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                    You might also find his lectures on the Bhagavad Gita and the Pauline Epistles of interest: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA142/English/AP1971/BhaPau_contents.html

                    I've copied the contents below:

                    I. The uniform plan of World History. The Confluence of three spiritual streams in the Bhagavad Gita. 28 Dec., 1912
                    II. The basis of knowledge of the Gita, the Veda, Sankhya, Yoga. 29 Dec., 1912
                    III. The union of the three streams in the Christ Impulse, the Teaching of Krishna. 30 Dec., 1912
                    IV. The nature of the Bhagavad Gita and the significance of the Epistles of St. Paul. How the Christ Impulse surpasses the Krishna Impulse. 31 Dec., 1912
                    V. The spiritual nature of Maya. Krishna — the Light-Halo of Christ. The Risen One. 1 Jan., 1913

                    T.

                    Ted Wrinch

                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen Bonneau <kahabo3@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Many thanks, Ted and Frank, for taking the time to post such thorough answers to my questions.
                    > > I see there is quite a different vocabulary and approach in Anthroposophy. In general Buddhism and Vedanta, which I'm more familiar with, tend to avoid metaphysics. So the idea of Monistic gods, Thrones and seraphim is rather new.
                    > > I've never lost my interest in Christianity and occasionally fish for non Jesuitical and non zionist and mainstream ideas on the subject.
                    > > I'll have to look at some of Steiner's books next time I'm at the store. I've only read his lectures on bees!
                    > > And, very glad to hear that you think we are out of the Kali Yug.. I hope you're right!
                    > >
                    > > Kathleen
                    >
                    > Kathleen,
                    > A good introduction is "Christianity as Mystical Fact" - Click for a free Ebook. http://southerncrossreview.org/Ebooks/ebchristianity.htm
                    > Good hunting,
                    > Frank
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                    > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                    > > From: fts.trasla@
                    > > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 23:56:29 +0000
                    > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Anthroposophical Guidelines - 112
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                    > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen Bonneau <kahabo3@> wrote:
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                    > > > Can anyone explain what Steiner means by this?
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                  • Frank Thomas Smith
                    114. Michael constantly strives to embody human-cosmic evolution by being a freely active example of the divine essence and the revelatory relation to the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Mar 25, 2012
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                      114. Michael constantly strives to embody human-cosmic evolution by being a freely active example of the divine essence and the revelatory relation to the cosmos retained by humanity from ancient times in order that what the image, the form of what the divine says about nature, may flow into a higher, spiritual consideration of nature. Although this will certainly be present in man, it will nevertheless be a reminiscence of the divine relation to the cosmos during the first two stages of cosmic evolution. In this way anthroposophy affirms the view of nature corresponding to the Consciousness-Soul age; it also completes it however, with what the eye of the spirit reveals.

                    • Frank Thomas Smith
                      116. Man finds the correct antidote to luciferic falsifications by permeating his sense of knowledge and life with Michael s being and mission.
                      Message 10 of 29 , Mar 28, 2012
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                        116. Man finds the correct antidote to luciferic falsifications by permeating his sense of knowledge and life with Michael's being and mission.


                      • Frank Thomas Smith
                        117. By doing so, man also protects himself from ahrimanic temptations, for the spiritual path to exterior nature, which is stimulated by Michael, leads to the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Mar 29, 2012
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                          117. By doing so, man also protects himself from ahrimanic temptations, for the spiritual path to exterior nature, which is stimulated by Michael, leads to the correct attitude towards the Ahrimanic, for thereby the correct experience of Christ will be found.

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