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Re: The Nature of Animals

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  • golden3000997@cs.com
    Hello Kim, Daniel, et al, I really, really want to write a treatise on this subject, but I can t right at the moment. But your example, Daniel of your
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 30, 2003
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      Hello Kim, Daniel, et al,

      I really, really want to write a treatise on this subject, but I can't right
      at the moment. But your example, Daniel of your brother's dog is what I would
      base the treatise on.

      I sit here surrounded by books and cats. I have 11 cats. I used to have a dog
      but it was too difficult to keep him here in an apartment with no one else to
      help walk him, etc. if I couldn't get home on time. His name was Archer,
      short for Royal Archer Goldenheart. When I was sixteen (going on seventeen) I had
      and lost a kitten while I was at Threefold Farm in Spring Valley for the
      summer, my first exposure to RS & Anthroposophy. I was really upset and I young
      woman from the community comforted me and told me for the first time about what
      happens to animals when we have loved them. She told me that by the very fact
      of their loving contact with us, they do not go back to the group soul as such
      (or at least not all parts of them do) but that they become "salamanders" ie,
      spirits of fire that stay around our auras and work to create further bonds of
      love between us and other animals.

      Nothing in the past 36 years has made me believe anything different. What I
      understand from Occult Science and especially "Man as Symphony of the Creative
      Word" is that there is a difference between what we find in nature as animal,
      plant or mineral in its "untouched" state and what it becomes through contact
      with Man. When we see a tree, we can "release" the nature spirit within it to
      go on in the spiritual world through our being concious of its existence, for
      example. So we have to view the question raised here in terms of past present
      and future and in terms of the effect of contact with Man. Occult Science
      teaches us about the Past in relationship to the evolution of the earth and its
      four kingdoms, mineral, plant, animal and man. We live now in the Present and
      find each one of us, a relationship with the other three kingdoms. Then we can
      move into the Imaginations that Steiner gave us and ask ourselves, how will
      what I do now affect the evolution of the other kingdoms of earth?

      We cannot lump "Animals" together anymore than we can say "Children" and mean
      every age and stage of development.

      This is what comes up in my imagination. There are three basic "types" of
      animals:

      1. Animals born and living "in the wild" in areas that still exist relatively
      untouched by Man's presence. While this type of animal used to be
      predominant, there are very few such domains left.

      2. Animals used by man as food or "slaves" to be exploited and mistreated if
      it creates a perceived benefit to man. This has always been a dominant area of
      man's relationship, but in my opinion has become even more cruel and harsh as
      man has moved farther away from being able to perceive the spirit in nature.

      3. Animals "owned" by man as pets or companions. While some in this
      relationship, especially dogs and horses may seem to fall into the second category,
      because many dogs and horses "work" for or with man, I make a distinction when
      there is a real bond of affection and respect between them. Other animals like
      cats, birds, gerbils, etc. may not serve any outward purpose at all other than
      furnishing their human with something to talk to or to cuddle with.

      The animals that are still part of the first group, whatever species they may
      be would then return to the Group Soul or Group Ego after their death, more
      or less as they were except for whatever they bring into that Species of their
      recent experiences.

      The animals of the second group probably return to the Group Soul, too. But I
      have to ask myself, could they really ever be the same? Does their horrible
      experience at the hands of Man change or affect the very nature of the Group
      Soul and its relationship to Man in general? I would think that it does somehow.
      There are examples to be found in certain works of fiction, but I wonder if
      we can really grasp the karma being created here.

      The animals of the third group, however, could perhaps be the ones to work as
      redeemers of the second group in a sense, to counter the negative karma
      between the Animal Kingdom and its Human Slaveowners and Cruel Overseers. Perhaps,
      whereever an animal has shared love and respect with a human, this love can
      act as a kind of homeopathic remedy to the illness that our blind cruelty is
      causing. I think that animals in this third group contribute much to the group
      soul, but part of them begins to form the seed of an individual Ego that will
      develop in the far, far reaches of time, maybe past the Jupiter and Venus ages
      of the Earth. By this I mean to the point of creating specific Man-like bodies
      in which to incarnate as Egos on the planet. This is really hard to put into
      concepts, because the physical nature of the earth and the physical forms of
      individual Human Egos will have changed so much by then. But from the moment
      that love arises, each animal "soul" (little Ego) can come into Being.

      One really has to have pampered pets or know someone who does to really
      experience their individuality. It can lead an outward observer to think, perhaps,
      well, animals have personalities to begin with. But not exactly. This
      "personality" arises from the interaction of animal soul with human soul, like the
      human soul arises out of the interaction of human body with human spirit. That's
      why it's so much fun to go to a dog or cat show just to see the animals with
      their humans and to see how much they look alike!!! The etheric bodies grow so
      connected. It can be really funny!!

      But this is not to belittle the connection. It is a very serious matter. For
      with Love comes Responsibility and we become responsible for these "little
      Egos" the way our Angels are responsible for us. We are the tenth Hierarchy. The
      Animals are the 11th, the Plants - the 12th and the Minerals, the 13th. There
      is so much work yet to do!! For all practical intents and purposes, we are
      NEVER going to get to lie around heaven playing harps!!! There will always be
      more unfolding, creating and transforming to do!

      I often wonder (really) what it means that my animals hear music in their
      immediate environment, never mind the hours of conversation!!! No animal "in the
      wild" hears Beethoven or the Beatles! (or me singing, for that matter - lucky
      them!) What can this mean? Certainly an animal who hears music all of its life
      cannot just go back to a group soul as something less than an individual!
      Something totally outside the spiritual reality of the Group Soul has been added.
      What does this really mean? I don't know, I just wonder.

      So, no, in terms of the current human population of the earth, we are not
      side by side with recently evolved animals (just not fair to the animals, this
      idea!) But we are side by side with animals who look to us for the love (in
      action) that will activate the "little Ego" within them which will grow in long
      ages into Individuality similar to what we now consider Human.

      OK, now for a REAL confession (ooh, I can just hear many of you going to be
      howling at me for this) - I just LOVE the Pet Psychic, Sonia Fitzpatrick.
      Please, please DON'T condemn without experiencing her program at least once. I
      personally don't find any problem reconciling who she is and what she does with
      RS. She is day-waking concious, there is no mediumship involved. She is
      communicating with animals on this side of existence and the other side who are deeply
      loved by human beings, most of which are in long term relationships.
      Therefore, the "little Egos" that she is speaking with are something more than group
      soul members. There is so very much love. And not just mushy sentimentality -
      real love in action, real forgiveness, real redemption and healing. The one
      phrase she uses over and over again is "Remember, Animals are Forever!" In terms
      of Love, which is all that really is Eternal, this is absolute Truth.

      With love,
      Christine

      and Baldur, Wicca, Maxi, Perseus, Govinda, Cleo, Calli, Bijoux, Andromeda,
      Sasha and Molly : )
    • Daniel Hindes
      Christine, Thank you for this detailed post, which helped me bring clarity to a number of thoughts I have been having recently. I agree with nearly all you
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 30, 2003
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        Christine,
        Thank you for this detailed post, which helped me bring clarity to a number
        of thoughts I have been having recently. I agree with nearly all you have
        written (and to the rest it is more that I am unclear at the moment, and not
        that I believe to the contrary). I have heard the salamander explanation
        before, perhaps even read it, though I can't seem to locate the source right
        now. What is not clear to me (because, among other things, I am not able to
        directly percieve it) is the nature of this salamander (or other elemental)
        and it's further evolution in the world. I can understand that in my
        relationship to Oso (my brother's dog) I transform a part of him. This
        transformed part survives his death, and does not return to the group soul.
        That transformed part then has a relationship to me, becomes a part of my
        being, and works for good or ill upon my supersensible members. Where it
        goes after my death is unclear to me. Further, should this elemental
        continue to higher development rather than dissolve back into the world
        eather or astral, then the group soul of dogness and I have together created
        a being, an offspring, that would continue independent of me. That's a lot
        of responsibility!

        Where does this leave Oso in this theoretical exercise? He is still not an
        ego-endowed being, or even himself the creator of one, he is a canvas,
        provided by the group sould of dogness, upon which I create the subsequent
        being by my actions and feelings.

        Perhaps I am looking at things from the wrong angle, or am missing an
        important piece of information. But I will continue to try to understand.
        Thank you for the help.

        Daniel Hindes

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <golden3000997@...>
        To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 1:17 PM
        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Nature of Animals


        > Hello Kim, Daniel, et al,
        >
        > I really, really want to write a treatise on this subject, but I can't
        right
        > at the moment. But your example, Daniel of your brother's dog is what I
        would
        > base the treatise on.
        >
        > I sit here surrounded by books and cats. I have 11 cats. I used to have a
        dog
        > but it was too difficult to keep him here in an apartment with no one else
        to
        > help walk him, etc. if I couldn't get home on time. His name was Archer,
        > short for Royal Archer Goldenheart. When I was sixteen (going on
        seventeen) I had
        > and lost a kitten while I was at Threefold Farm in Spring Valley for the
        > summer, my first exposure to RS & Anthroposophy. I was really upset and I
        young
        > woman from the community comforted me and told me for the first time about
        what
        > happens to animals when we have loved them. She told me that by the very
        fact
        > of their loving contact with us, they do not go back to the group soul as
        such
        > (or at least not all parts of them do) but that they become "salamanders"
        ie,
        > spirits of fire that stay around our auras and work to create further
        bonds of
        > love between us and other animals.
        >
        > Nothing in the past 36 years has made me believe anything different. What
        I
        > understand from Occult Science and especially "Man as Symphony of the
        Creative
        > Word" is that there is a difference between what we find in nature as
        animal,
        > plant or mineral in its "untouched" state and what it becomes through
        contact
        > with Man. When we see a tree, we can "release" the nature spirit within it
        to
        > go on in the spiritual world through our being concious of its existence,
        for
        > example. So we have to view the question raised here in terms of past
        present
        > and future and in terms of the effect of contact with Man. Occult Science
        > teaches us about the Past in relationship to the evolution of the earth
        and its
        > four kingdoms, mineral, plant, animal and man. We live now in the Present
        and
        > find each one of us, a relationship with the other three kingdoms. Then we
        can
        > move into the Imaginations that Steiner gave us and ask ourselves, how
        will
        > what I do now affect the evolution of the other kingdoms of earth?
        >
        > We cannot lump "Animals" together anymore than we can say "Children" and
        mean
        > every age and stage of development.
        >
        > This is what comes up in my imagination. There are three basic "types" of
        > animals:
        >
        > 1. Animals born and living "in the wild" in areas that still exist
        relatively
        > untouched by Man's presence. While this type of animal used to be
        > predominant, there are very few such domains left.
        >
        > 2. Animals used by man as food or "slaves" to be exploited and mistreated
        if
        > it creates a perceived benefit to man. This has always been a dominant
        area of
        > man's relationship, but in my opinion has become even more cruel and harsh
        as
        > man has moved farther away from being able to perceive the spirit in
        nature.
        >
        > 3. Animals "owned" by man as pets or companions. While some in this
        > relationship, especially dogs and horses may seem to fall into the second
        category,
        > because many dogs and horses "work" for or with man, I make a distinction
        when
        > there is a real bond of affection and respect between them. Other animals
        like
        > cats, birds, gerbils, etc. may not serve any outward purpose at all other
        than
        > furnishing their human with something to talk to or to cuddle with.
        >
        > The animals that are still part of the first group, whatever species they
        may
        > be would then return to the Group Soul or Group Ego after their death,
        more
        > or less as they were except for whatever they bring into that Species of
        their
        > recent experiences.
        >
        > The animals of the second group probably return to the Group Soul, too.
        But I
        > have to ask myself, could they really ever be the same? Does their
        horrible
        > experience at the hands of Man change or affect the very nature of the
        Group
        > Soul and its relationship to Man in general? I would think that it does
        somehow.
        > There are examples to be found in certain works of fiction, but I wonder
        if
        > we can really grasp the karma being created here.
        >
        > The animals of the third group, however, could perhaps be the ones to work
        as
        > redeemers of the second group in a sense, to counter the negative karma
        > between the Animal Kingdom and its Human Slaveowners and Cruel Overseers.
        Perhaps,
        > whereever an animal has shared love and respect with a human, this love
        can
        > act as a kind of homeopathic remedy to the illness that our blind cruelty
        is
        > causing. I think that animals in this third group contribute much to the
        group
        > soul, but part of them begins to form the seed of an individual Ego that
        will
        > develop in the far, far reaches of time, maybe past the Jupiter and Venus
        ages
        > of the Earth. By this I mean to the point of creating specific Man-like
        bodies
        > in which to incarnate as Egos on the planet. This is really hard to put
        into
        > concepts, because the physical nature of the earth and the physical forms
        of
        > individual Human Egos will have changed so much by then. But from the
        moment
        > that love arises, each animal "soul" (little Ego) can come into Being.
        >
        > One really has to have pampered pets or know someone who does to really
        > experience their individuality. It can lead an outward observer to think,
        perhaps,
        > well, animals have personalities to begin with. But not exactly. This
        > "personality" arises from the interaction of animal soul with human soul,
        like the
        > human soul arises out of the interaction of human body with human spirit.
        That's
        > why it's so much fun to go to a dog or cat show just to see the animals
        with
        > their humans and to see how much they look alike!!! The etheric bodies
        grow so
        > connected. It can be really funny!!
        >
        > But this is not to belittle the connection. It is a very serious matter.
        For
        > with Love comes Responsibility and we become responsible for these "little
        > Egos" the way our Angels are responsible for us. We are the tenth
        Hierarchy. The
        > Animals are the 11th, the Plants - the 12th and the Minerals, the 13th.
        There
        > is so much work yet to do!! For all practical intents and purposes, we are
        > NEVER going to get to lie around heaven playing harps!!! There will always
        be
        > more unfolding, creating and transforming to do!
        >
        > I often wonder (really) what it means that my animals hear music in their
        > immediate environment, never mind the hours of conversation!!! No animal
        "in the
        > wild" hears Beethoven or the Beatles! (or me singing, for that matter -
        lucky
        > them!) What can this mean? Certainly an animal who hears music all of its
        life
        > cannot just go back to a group soul as something less than an individual!
        > Something totally outside the spiritual reality of the Group Soul has been
        added.
        > What does this really mean? I don't know, I just wonder.
        >
        > So, no, in terms of the current human population of the earth, we are not
        > side by side with recently evolved animals (just not fair to the animals,
        this
        > idea!) But we are side by side with animals who look to us for the love
        (in
        > action) that will activate the "little Ego" within them which will grow in
        long
        > ages into Individuality similar to what we now consider Human.
        >
        > OK, now for a REAL confession (ooh, I can just hear many of you going to
        be
        > howling at me for this) - I just LOVE the Pet Psychic, Sonia Fitzpatrick.
        > Please, please DON'T condemn without experiencing her program at least
        once. I
        > personally don't find any problem reconciling who she is and what she does
        with
        > RS. She is day-waking concious, there is no mediumship involved. She is
        > communicating with animals on this side of existence and the other side
        who are deeply
        > loved by human beings, most of which are in long term relationships.
        > Therefore, the "little Egos" that she is speaking with are something more
        than group
        > soul members. There is so very much love. And not just mushy
        sentimentality -
        > real love in action, real forgiveness, real redemption and healing. The
        one
        > phrase she uses over and over again is "Remember, Animals are Forever!" In
        terms
        > of Love, which is all that really is Eternal, this is absolute Truth.
        >
        > With love,
        > Christine
        >
        > and Baldur, Wicca, Maxi, Perseus, Govinda, Cleo, Calli, Bijoux, Andromeda,
        > Sasha and Molly : )
      • golden3000997@cs.com
        Hi Daniel, Well, first of all, Oso isn t your dog, with whom you have a day to day long term relationship, so he probably won t be your responsibility. : ) I
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 30, 2003
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          Hi Daniel,

          Well, first of all, Oso isn't your dog, with whom you have a day to day long
          term relationship, so he probably won't be your responsibility. : )

          I really tried to make the distinction between the wide angles of our
          relationships with animals. I can't say exactly HOW this all works after death, but I
          picture them as beings of special warmth that come close again to us after
          death and retain their "emotional" form as the pets we loved in life until we
          are ready to "see" them in the spiritual world in a little less specific form. I
          think they simply stay with us and work as little "love angels" (probably too
          mushy stuff for the guys here!). Probably something of their nature goes back
          to the group soul, like parts of our physical, etheric and astral bodies go
          back to those spheres. When we come back to earth, they probably come back as
          animals in our lives too. Sonia Fitzpatrick, the pet psychic has been very
          definite about their ability to come back to us. She often, but not always lets
          grieving pet lovers that their companion will come back during their life time.
          I know it sounds awful out of context, but you need to watch her interact,
          please before being too closed minded. I think in the first place, I don't feel
          that animals are "mindless" to begin with. Especially in the species that have
          been so intimately connected with humans for so many eons, I think even the
          group souls are quite "with us" in a sense, not necessarily remote.

          In any case, animals are certainly tied to us intimately in the entire
          evolution of the earth and we have a mutually dependent relationship already. We
          already bear responsibility for their well-being whether we choose to accept it
          or not. Individual animals who live with us are just special ambassadors in our
          lives. How we treat them and act out of love or not is as significant as how
          we act toward one another.

          Personally, I love the responsibility. I love the thought that we will be
          able to give to them someday the kind of love that the angels give to us now. But
          don't mind me - I'm just a crazy old cat lady!!! : )
        • Daniel Hindes
          Christine, Thank you for the additional material. I am still working on the question, and suspect that I will be for some time to come. For a little fun I
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 30, 2003
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            Christine,
            Thank you for the additional material. I am still working on the question,
            and suspect that I will be for some time to come.

            For a little fun I offer this article from the Atlantic (July 1999) on
            canine behavior:
            http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jul/9907dogs.htm

            This is the summary:
            Recent explorations into the field of canine genetics are changing the way
            we think about man's best friend -- "man's best parasite" may be more like
            it -- and could help us repair the damage done by a century of inbreeding.

            Among some of the interesting statements: "Probably 90 to 95 percent of the
            dog genome and the human genome are identical."

            Daniel


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <golden3000997@...>
            To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 8:04 PM
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Nature of Animals


            > Hi Daniel,
            >
            > Well, first of all, Oso isn't your dog, with whom you have a day to day
            long
            > term relationship, so he probably won't be your responsibility. : )
            >
            > I really tried to make the distinction between the wide angles of our
            > relationships with animals. I can't say exactly HOW this all works after
            death, but I
            > picture them as beings of special warmth that come close again to us after
            > death and retain their "emotional" form as the pets we loved in life until
            we
            > are ready to "see" them in the spiritual world in a little less specific
            form. I
            > think they simply stay with us and work as little "love angels" (probably
            too
            > mushy stuff for the guys here!). Probably something of their nature goes
            back
            > to the group soul, like parts of our physical, etheric and astral bodies
            go
            > back to those spheres. When we come back to earth, they probably come back
            as
            > animals in our lives too. Sonia Fitzpatrick, the pet psychic has been very
            > definite about their ability to come back to us. She often, but not always
            lets
            > grieving pet lovers that their companion will come back during their life
            time.
            > I know it sounds awful out of context, but you need to watch her interact,
            > please before being too closed minded. I think in the first place, I don't
            feel
            > that animals are "mindless" to begin with. Especially in the species that
            have
            > been so intimately connected with humans for so many eons, I think even
            the
            > group souls are quite "with us" in a sense, not necessarily remote.
            >
            > In any case, animals are certainly tied to us intimately in the entire
            > evolution of the earth and we have a mutually dependent relationship
            already. We
            > already bear responsibility for their well-being whether we choose to
            accept it
            > or not. Individual animals who live with us are just special ambassadors
            in our
            > lives. How we treat them and act out of love or not is as significant as
            how
            > we act toward one another.
            >
            > Personally, I love the responsibility. I love the thought that we will be
            > able to give to them someday the kind of love that the angels give to us
            now. But
            > don't mind me - I'm just a crazy old cat lady!!! : )
          • golden3000997@cs.com
            From the article you pointed me to: In the United States there are about 50 million owned dogs and millions more unowned -- eloquent evolutionary testimony to
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 30, 2003
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              From the article you pointed me to:

              In the United States there are about 50 million owned dogs and millions more
              unowned -- eloquent evolutionary testimony to the wisdom of mooching off
              people rather than fighting it out in the wild.

              Yeah, but they are amateurs compared to cats!!!! : )LOL

              Thus reading social cues adeptly, down to such details of body language as a
              flick of the ear or the angle of a tail, is the most basic of canine
              instincts. "That's what dogs do for a living," Gregory Acland says. "They figure out
              what's expected of them in a social situation and do it."

              Cats don't even bother with that nonsense! They are only concerned with what
              they expect from us!

              And in a very real sense mutts today embody the evolutionary heritage of the
              True Dog -- that animal that evolved with us, that adapted to and exploited
              our society, and did so largely on his own terms. Defiant of human fashion and
              whim, selected only in accordance with the ancient evolutionary dictate that
              demands nothing more than an ability to get along with rather gullible human
              beings, mutts are really what dogs are about. If worst comes to worst, perhaps
              they will set us straight, just as their ancestors so ably did -- at least for
              99,900 of the past 100,000 years.

              But Cats will be the ones to set both Humans and Dogs straight in the end! :
              )
            • Richard Distasi
              Christine, Kim and Daniel: Christine, you wrote: When we see a tree, we can release the nature spirit within it to go on in the spiritual world through our
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 1, 2003
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                Christine, Kim and Daniel:
                 
                Christine, you wrote:
                 
                "When we see a tree, we can "release" the nature spirit within it to
                go on in the spiritual world through our being concious of its existence, for
                example."
                 
                And:
                 
                "She told me that by the very fact of their loving contact with us, they do not go back to the group soul as such (or at least not all parts of them do) but that they become "salamanders" ie, spirits of fire that stay around our auras and work to create further bonds of love between us and other animals."
                 
                This has been the point that I had tried to make earlier in another posts. It is not the animal soul, the plant and mineral essence that becomes Ego-endowed in the future (at least I should say as I understand this) but rather it is the nature spirits in these realms that are eventually freed from these realms of which they are dependent upon us to free them from the realms. They are the next wave of Beings to become Ego-endowed. That part of the animal that does not go back to the group soul is the salamander; not the astral body of the animal. By contact with humans it does grow closer to becoming and Ego-endowed Being. Does the family dog have a personality. Anyone who has ever lived with a dog would certainly agree to this. Is this the dog or is it the salamander that grows in soul forces due to its contact with humans; that is, humans act as a conduit for the salamanders growth.
                 
                rick distasi 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 1:17 PM
                Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Nature of Animals

                Hello Kim, Daniel, et al,

                I really, really want to write a treatise on this subject, but I can't right
                at the moment. But your example, Daniel of your brother's dog is what I would
                base the treatise on.

                I sit here surrounded by books and cats. I have 11 cats. I used to have a dog
                but it was too difficult to keep him here in an apartment with no one else to
                help walk him, etc. if I couldn't get home on time. His name was Archer,
                short for Royal Archer Goldenheart. When I was sixteen (going on seventeen) I had
                and lost a kitten while I was at Threefold Farm in Spring Valley for the
                summer, my first exposure to RS & Anthroposophy. I was really upset and I young
                woman from the community comforted me and told me for the first time about what
                happens to animals when we have loved them. She told me that by the very fact
                of their loving contact with us, they do not go back to the group soul as such
                (or at least not all parts of them do) but that they become "salamanders" ie,
                spirits of fire that stay around our auras and work to create further bonds of
                love between us and other animals.

                Nothing in the past 36 years has made me believe anything different. What I
                understand from Occult Science and especially "Man as Symphony of the Creative
                Word" is that there is a difference between what we find in nature as animal,
                plant or mineral in its "untouched" state and what it becomes through contact
                with Man. When we see a tree, we can "release" the nature spirit within it to
                go on in the spiritual world through our being concious of its existence, for
                example. So we have to view the question raised here in terms of past present
                and future and in terms of the effect of contact with Man.  Occult Science
                teaches us about the Past in relationship to the evolution of the earth and its
                four kingdoms, mineral, plant, animal and man. We live now in the Present and
                find each one of us, a relationship with the other three kingdoms. Then we can
                move into the Imaginations that Steiner gave us and ask ourselves, how will
                what I do now affect the evolution of the other kingdoms of earth?

                We cannot lump "Animals" together anymore than we can say "Children" and mean
                every age and stage of development.

                This is what comes up in my imagination. There are three basic "types" of
                animals:

                1. Animals born and living "in the wild" in areas that still exist relatively
                untouched by Man's presence. While this type of animal used to be
                predominant, there are very few such domains left.

                2. Animals used by man as food or "slaves" to be exploited and mistreated if
                it creates a perceived benefit to man. This has always been a dominant area of
                man's relationship, but in my opinion has become even more cruel and harsh as
                man has moved farther away from being able to perceive the spirit in nature.

                3. Animals "owned" by man as pets or companions. While some in this
                relationship, especially dogs and horses may seem to fall into the second category,
                because many dogs and horses "work" for or with man, I make a distinction when
                there is a real bond of affection and respect between them. Other animals like
                cats, birds, gerbils, etc. may not serve any outward purpose at all other than
                furnishing their human with something to talk to or to cuddle with.

                The animals that are still part of the first group, whatever species they may
                be would then return to the Group Soul or Group Ego after their death, more
                or less as they were except for whatever they bring into that Species of their
                recent experiences.

                The animals of the second group probably return to the Group Soul, too. But I
                have to ask myself, could they really ever be the same? Does their horrible
                experience at the hands of Man change or affect the very nature of the Group
                Soul and its relationship to Man in general? I would think that it does somehow.
                There are examples to be found in certain works of fiction, but I wonder if
                we can really grasp the karma being created here.

                The animals of the third group, however, could perhaps be the ones to work as
                redeemers of the second group in a sense, to counter the negative karma
                between the Animal Kingdom and its Human Slaveowners and Cruel Overseers. Perhaps,
                whereever an animal has shared love and respect with a human, this love can
                act as a kind of homeopathic remedy to the illness that our blind cruelty is
                causing. I think that animals in this third group contribute much to the group
                soul, but part of them begins to form the seed of an individual Ego that will
                develop in the far, far reaches of time, maybe past the Jupiter and Venus ages
                of the Earth. By this I mean to the point of creating specific Man-like bodies
                in which to incarnate as Egos on the planet. This is really hard to put into
                concepts, because the physical nature of the earth and the physical forms of
                individual Human Egos will have changed so much by then. But from the moment
                that love arises, each animal "soul" (little Ego) can come into Being.

                One really has to have pampered pets or know someone who does to really
                experience their individuality. It can lead an outward observer to think, perhaps,
                well, animals have personalities to begin with. But not exactly. This
                "personality" arises from the interaction of animal soul with human soul, like the
                human soul arises out of the interaction of human body with human spirit. That's
                why it's so much fun to go to a dog or cat show just to see the animals with
                their humans and to see how much they look alike!!! The etheric bodies grow so
                connected. It can be really funny!!

                But this is not to belittle the connection. It is a very serious matter. For
                with Love comes Responsibility and we become responsible for these "little
                Egos" the way our Angels are responsible for us. We are the tenth Hierarchy. The
                Animals are the 11th, the Plants - the 12th and the Minerals, the 13th. There
                is so much work yet to do!! For all practical intents and purposes, we are
                NEVER going to get to lie around heaven playing harps!!! There will always be
                more unfolding, creating and transforming to do!

                I often wonder (really) what it means that my animals hear music in their
                immediate environment, never mind the hours of conversation!!! No animal "in the
                wild" hears Beethoven or the Beatles! (or me singing, for that matter - lucky
                them!) What can this mean? Certainly an animal who hears music all of its life
                cannot just go back to a group soul as something less than an individual!
                Something totally outside the spiritual reality of the Group Soul has been added.
                What does this really mean? I don't know, I just wonder.

                So, no, in terms of the current human population of the earth, we are not
                side by side with recently evolved animals (just not fair to the animals, this
                idea!) But we are side by side with animals who look to us for the love (in
                action) that will activate the "little Ego" within them which will grow in long
                ages into Individuality similar to what we now consider Human.

                OK, now for a REAL confession (ooh, I can just hear many of you going to be
                howling at me for this) - I just LOVE the Pet Psychic, Sonia Fitzpatrick.
                Please, please DON'T condemn without experiencing her program at least once. I
                personally don't find any problem reconciling who she is and what she does with
                RS. She is day-waking concious, there is no mediumship involved. She is
                communicating with animals on this side of existence and the other side who are deeply
                loved by human beings, most of which are in long term relationships.
                Therefore, the "little Egos" that she is speaking with are something more than group
                soul members. There is so very much love. And not just mushy sentimentality -
                real love in action, real forgiveness, real redemption and healing. The one
                phrase she uses over and over again is "Remember, Animals are Forever!" In terms
                of Love, which is all that really is Eternal, this is absolute Truth.

                With love,
                Christine

                and Baldur, Wicca, Maxi, Perseus, Govinda, Cleo, Calli, Bijoux, Andromeda,
                Sasha and Molly :   )


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              • golden3000997@cs.com
                Hi Paulina, You have my total sympathy. I m not mature at all about the idea of any of my little ones crossing over. I don t have human children and I think I
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 2, 2003
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                  Hi Paulina,

                  You have my total sympathy. I'm not mature at all about the idea of any of my
                  little ones crossing over. I don't have human children and I think I just
                  couldn't bear it if I did and something happened to one of them! No maturity at
                  all - just a big blubbering mess!

                  BUT - despite all that, I really do know that they go on. And I don't think
                  of these kinds of "salamanders" - let's call them Fire Spirits - are like the
                  elemental spirits commonly found in nature. I think they are akin to them, they
                  live in the sphere of warmth, but it is a special kind of warmth - a warmth
                  engendered only where love exists between animals and humans. I believe that
                  they are not amorphous, but retain their "personalities" and are recognizable to
                  the ones they love and who have loved them.

                  Oh, I wish you could watch "The Pet Psychic". She used to be on Animal Planet
                  on Monday nights, but then they said they were moving her to a daytime slot.
                  I don't have any cable right now, so I can't find out what is happening. I
                  taped a couple of her programs, but I wish I had them all. She is absolutely
                  emphatic about both animals and people crossing over exactly when they are meant
                  to. Even if the human companion has to put the animal companion "to sleep" this
                  is usually the right thing and meant to be and the animals she has spoken
                  with thank their humans for releasing them. Other pets come to them just as
                  people we love who have gone before come to us. Several times she spoke of other
                  people who the humans knew being there with the pet on the other side.
                  Absolutely remarkable, the way she speaks. Nothing fuzzy, remote or generalized about
                  it. Totally specific references and impossible for even a production company
                  with a huge budget to have researched so extensively. She is totally down to
                  earth and direct. In one part of her show, she interacts with the animals in an
                  audience setting; another part, she works with grieving humans there in the
                  studio (usually three per show); and the third part is where she goes to many
                  different places (pet sanctuaries, homes, etc.) and works with particular
                  questions, usually behavior problems that the humans haven't been able to figure out.

                  Like I said before, there is nothing atavistic or medium-like about her -
                  just a total gift. Really one from the future, I think. One of the faculties in
                  fairy tales which come from the atavistic past but have to be renewed through
                  concious love is the ability to speak with animals. I think flying (levitating)
                  is another such faculty.

                  Yes, these little ones are our "children" in a sense. We take them on freely,
                  at least where there is love. And we give them our hearts and they give us
                  theirs. And love, in all its many forms and expression, is Eternal.

                  As Sonya says "Animals are Forever." : )

                  Peace to your heart now and at the crossing,

                  Christine
                • golden3000997@cs.com
                  PS about a little dog I came to love way,way too much. :-( NEVER TOO MUCH!!!! : )
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 2, 2003
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                    PS

                    about a little dog I came to love way,way too much. :-(

                    NEVER TOO MUCH!!!! : )
                  • golden3000997@cs.com
                    Very cool Paulina!! : ) I think it s important that we check things out before making assumptions. Everything is very complex, the material and the spiritual
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 2, 2003
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                      Very cool Paulina!! : )

                      I think it's important that we check things out before making assumptions.
                      Everything is very complex, the material and the spiritual world, and not
                      everything fits neatly into slots. We need to understand the construct, but use it
                      as a springboard to be able to see outside the box. There are literally
                      millions of things in the world that did not exist in 1925 when RS died. He couldn't
                      simply see them all and say AB and C are going to happen. He said himself that
                      Waldorf Education is the perfect system for the 5th Post Atlantean epoch, but
                      it wouldn't do at all for the 6th. The directive I value most from him as an
                      educator and indeed, as a person simply trying to live in these times is to
                      OBSERVE and take it from that as a starting point. We can't observe if we
                      pre-judge and refuse to look.

                      Not trying to be "preachy" - I've just watched "The Matrix" - thanks to
                      Michael H's mention of it in one of his posts and my infinite suseptibility to the
                      power of suggestion!

                      I really want to analyse it and analyse it! Part of me says, I want to get to
                      reality, SEE REALITY, but my real self, the woosie says "Let me out of here!
                      I don't want to see anything!" I'm going to find a nice quiet cave somewhere
                      and wait until it all blows over. Unfortunately for Tarjei, who said that he
                      wanted to wait for a nice long time between incarnations and come back when
                      Ahriman had come and gone, he is already here and it's too late to turn back now.
                      I think it's definitely the time to "head for the hills" as the Bible says!

                      By the way, I watched "The Education of Little Tree" last night. Wonderful
                      film. All about the same thing, really, but from a 1930s point of view. The
                      battle for Truth is still there. But MUCH nicer scenery!!!

                      : ) Christine
                    • golden3000997@cs.com
                      OH, PS - but wasn t Whoopi Goldberg wonderful as a medium in Ghost ?! LOL Christine
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 2, 2003
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                        OH, PS - but wasn't Whoopi Goldberg wonderful as a medium in "Ghost"?!

                        LOL Christine
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