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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

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  • dottie zold
    Dear Andrei and Friends, I think I may have used the term play but I want to share that I implied this means there was no gravity or suffering to what had
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 29, 2008
      Dear Andrei and Friends,
      I think I may have used the term 'play' but I want to share that I implied this means there was no gravity or suffering to what had occurred. Obviously there was to all. And to me this was already known in the spiritual worlds. For this the angels did cry when Christ descended. The fight had already been played out in the spiritual worlds. But this again does not imply it was not a great tragedy for all involved. To me that it would have come to this was the tragedy in and of itself: that one had to leave the spiritual worlds in the manner the Christ did, and to be seen by all, must have been like a crucifixion its very self.

      The sin was the Fall. Mankind did not need to have this occur and was taken off its rightful path if we understand Steiner to be correct or near to something true. Our path was to attain its evolution in another manner however it did not turn out that way for variou reasons we can imagine. And a sacrafice was made again by Eve who recognized that damn apple and what was needed for mankind.

      I would like to day that the disciples were unaware of the sacrafice to come. That may be true for some but that was not true for the Magdalene nor Lazarus. Both being connected to John the Baptist in the manner they were I understand that they too knew of what was to come. I think we can find understanding for that if we sense into who those two beings are/were and their connection to the Sophian forces. As the Magdalene sat in for the Mary's she would have had, as John, the full on Sophian understanding of what was to occur and for what it was occurring.

      Saint Catherine was not correct in what she had shared regarding the Magdalene pulling her hair and eyes out. What is interesting also is that it is Saint Catherine who came to Saint Jeanne of Arc as well as Saint Margaret. Now, I have not done my homework on why these two Saints along with Archangel Michael appeared to Jeanne as well as Mary, understood at this time to have been the mother and not the Magdalene (although we don't have enough information as of yet to determine her exact understanding of which one it was) but it would seem to me that as the two showed up during the Transfiguration, we can know there is an exact reason why those two saints appear to Jeanne. If we look at that we actually have John/Ann just as we did with the mother of Mary. It's very very interesting to say the least.

      In any case, I put my slide to that there were two who did forsee this and it was known to them. And these two had the presence of mind to be on Golgotha at this moment in time.

      All good things and thanks Andrei,
      Dottie


      --- On Tue, 4/29/08, Andrei O. <amail4andrei@...> wrote:

      From: Andrei O. <amail4andrei@...
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re:Murder or Sacrafice?
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 9:18 AM






      Dear all,

      I felt it necessary to give the exact quotation, as it is in English, of the words i referred to. They are to be found in John 19:

      10 "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
      11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
      There are also other places where He talks about the inevitability and actually need for that sacrifice, and I am sure you know them well.

      And, actually, based not just on what was written, but trying to feel it in practical sense, to put yourself in another's shoes in a sense: the sacrifice is not a play where everyone is behaving appropriately according to his/her role. The "play" isn't such a play, for it implies real suffering, and real cruelty, and real forgiveness. Moreover, I am rather pro- thinking that even the closest disciples didn't realize at the time of those events all the grandeur and all the meaning of the Event itself. Therefore, the exo-event is not less
      important then the esoterically understood one.

      Therefore, I still believe that the pre-planing , the foretold nature of that event does not decrease the reality of all the feelings, thoughts, sufferings and cruelties or dilemmas (Pilat e.g.) involved. I.e. the murderers were actually willing to have the man killed, and the Christ wanted to pass through all these with real holly patience and love.

      In my opinion, one wiling to go directly to the esoteric meaning, ignoring the pure external actions and real primary feelings (the primary human reactions), won't succeed to do so as one who first suffered, co-felt him/herself together with those whom he's thinking (reading) about.

      In a way I tried here to react also to the kind Sándor Albert remarks.

      All these should be
      backed up, I believe, by one observation: esoteric knowledge are usually involve the heads, not quite the hearts; and the commoners' exoteric view and feelings are often deeper, so that the behavior of such a man would be a genuine Christian one even without much esotericism in the head.

      As for the Hebrew Passover calculation, I will continue to dig further, since I still can't understand the timing (consequence and its logic) of the end of the Passion Week. Of course a Rabi would be very helpful here, but I can't get to one here, unfortunately.

      Thank you all

      Andrei



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:05:39 AM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re:Murder or Sacrafice?








      Andrei:
      Of course, the sacrifice is what actually He came for at that time - around 2 millenniums ago. But, as He used to say: What is come tome, shall come, but sin is on him through whom that event is made to come. (Please forgive my frivolous phrasing of the Gospel's passages.)

      Dottie:
      Hey Andrei, it seems to me the sacrafice was planned way in advance for both, the Nathan child, and also the Christ. Sin came in at the beginning of the world. We are all born into sin by the very nature of the Fall it seems. Or at least so is my debating with my friend E. who keeps honing in on that point specifically. Me, personally, I never thought of it in that manner, however after reading your words above, I think I am going to have to give a point to E.

      Karma is karma. Look at Hitler and any of the grave injustices that befell our world, all have a price to pay. And it was Christ from the Cross who said 'forgive them for they know not what they do'. And it seems to me that we can apply this to our very own selves as well as we still continue till this day to sacrafice the Christ by not waking up to our shadows and how we are asleep in our thinking feeling and willing towards not only others but also ourseleves and our angels.

      And we can look at the statement of Christ wherby He states that those who will are first will be last and those who are last will be the first to come into the Kingdom. We can also look at the idea of 'it is harder for a man of God to get into the Kingdom then a camel through the eye of a needle'. These are all testaments that speak to the difficulties ...(I had to save this and come back a few hours later so I am not sure I can pick up the thread of this thought properly.)

      Andrei:
      If we look at the event of Calvarium (Golgotha) with the eyes of Jesus or one who has the appropriate understanding, then the event is called SACRIFICE. If looked through those willing to fulfill it (Hebrew priests e.g.), then it's a murder. And it should be like that, otherwise there wouldn't be any truthfulness in that sacrifice. Sacrifice is meant to be two-folded.

      Dottie: I have to disagree with your thought of the murder aspect due to the fact that they were 'willing' to carry out the sacrafice. I think of these Jews sacraficing themselves, including Judas, till the end of time when all will be right again in the world. Did we think Christ would just walk in there and be accepted? No we did not. Was this not already fortold in the spiritual worlds before the human beings ever even walked that path? I think so.

      I think sacrafice is meant to be twofolded, I can agree with that. What I do not agree with is the term murder. I think it takes away from the sacrafice. And it assumes that only the Christ sacraficed. The others were sacraficed as well by the shere act of doing the deed.

      Andrei:
      About the calculation - at least I would like to hear from some one knowing it - was the Hebrew Passover celebrated exactly on 14 day of Nissan regardless of the day (an ordinary one or the end of week - Sabbath), or it was usually the Sabbath. Sorry for insistence, but I didn't get it from other sources. If the 14th day of Nissan month could be any day, not only the Sabbath, then it would more easier for me to understand the Final Supper of Jesus and his disciples (in sense of timing).

      Dottie: I will ask my Rabbi but it seems to me it would have had to have been on the Sabbath. That is known as the Queen's Day and it is sacred and Holy and it is in direct working with the Moon as far as I understand it to be. I will double check. We can do the Ask Moses page on the internet. He was sacraficed on the Eve...well I will double check.

      Andrei:
      You also said something like you admire the Jews for protecting the Femenin.

      Dottie: The soul. That aspect that moves with man, the Shekinah, the Anthroposphia Being.

      Andrei:
      In this sense a tableau immediately comes to my mind: the husband washing the feet of his wife. Very good. Another immediate re-action: Paul (Saul) establishing the rules for the Christ's church: a real patriarchal church, where the women's place is not the best one. Woman is less then a man... and so on. Ok. Anyway, I'm not blaming any own, since the attitude towards anyone is first of course in our own hands and not in Paul's ones.

      Dottie: It is of question whether that is a truth about Paul as his disciples, and speakers are now known to have been women. Not only that but it is considered to have been altered in that manner of communication to bolster Peter's stance over the Magdalene.

      Andrei:
      As to 'we all are Jews'. Yes :) , that's right . Look at the Bible. Which part of it is bigger: the Christological one, or the Hebrew one? Even He used to say: I didn't came to break the Law (the Hebrew Law)... And now we have the situation when many Christians use to hate Jews...

      Dottie: I agree that it is now used. We have unfortunately lost the understanding that Abraham is our father in this one religious understanding of the Earth Sun and Moon.

      Thanks for the conversation,
      Dottie


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    • Andrei O.
      Dear Dottie, I do agree with you and Sandor with everything. Just that I wanted to make these tableau a little bit more human. Many words could be added to
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 29, 2008
        Dear Dottie,

        I do agree with you and Sandor with everything. Just that I wanted to make these tableau a little bit more human. Many words could be added to this, but I won't go deeper into details for the time being, all the more so that in my previous message I covered this in a way.

        However, after reading this message of your, dear Dottie, may I dare to draw your attention to a place of the Gospel (the Luke's one). I am sure you know that place, that is why I won't spend time in finding the exact phrasing of it in English and will say with my words: "A sword will pierce your soul..."... That is - even by knowing something you can't get rid of feeling the sadness or com-passion.

        Andrei




        ----- Original Message ----
        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:09:41 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

        Dear Andrei and Friends,
        I think I may have used the term 'play' but I want to share that I implied this means there was no gravity or suffering to what had occurred. Obviously there was to all. And to me this was already known in the spiritual worlds. For this the angels did cry when Christ descended. The fight had already been played out in the spiritual worlds. But this again does not imply it was not a great tragedy for all involved. To me that it would have come to this was the tragedy in and of itself: that one had to leave the spiritual worlds in the manner the Christ did, and to be seen by all, must have been like a crucifixion its very self.

        The sin was the Fall. Mankind did not need to have this occur and was taken off its rightful path if we understand Steiner to be correct or near to something true. Our path was to attain its evolution in another manner however it did not turn out that way for variou reasons we can imagine. And a sacrafice was made again by Eve who recognized that damn apple and what was needed for mankind.

        I would like to day that the disciples were unaware of the sacrafice to come. That may be true for some but that was not true for the Magdalene nor Lazarus. Both being connected to John the Baptist in the manner they were I understand that they too knew of what was to come. I think we can find understanding for that if we sense into who those two beings are/were and their connection to the Sophian forces. As the Magdalene sat in for the Mary's she would have had, as John, the full on Sophian understanding of what was to occur and for what it was occurring.

        Saint Catherine was not correct in what she had shared regarding the Magdalene pulling her hair and eyes out. What is interesting also is that it is Saint Catherine who came to Saint Jeanne of Arc as well as Saint Margaret. Now, I have not done my homework on why these two Saints along with Archangel Michael appeared to Jeanne as well as Mary, understood at this time to have been the mother and not the Magdalene (although we don't have enough information as of yet to determine her exact understanding of which one it was) but it would seem to me that as the two showed up during the Transfiguration, we can know there is an exact reason why those two saints appear to Jeanne. If we look at that we actually have John/Ann just as we did with the mother of Mary. It's very very interesting to say the least.

        In any case, I put my slide to that there were two who did forsee this and it was known to them. And these two had the presence of mind to be on Golgotha at this moment in time.

        All good things and thanks Andrei,
        Dottie

        --- On Tue, 4/29/08, Andrei O. <amail4andrei@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: Andrei O. <amail4andrei@ yahoo.co
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re:Murder or Sacrafice?
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 9:18 AM

        Dear all,

        I felt it necessary to give the exact quotation, as it is in English, of the words i referred to. They are to be found in John 19:

        10 "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
        11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
        There are also other places where He talks about the inevitability and actually need for that sacrifice, and I am sure you know them well.

        And, actually, based not just on what was written, but trying to feel it in practical sense, to put yourself in another's shoes in a sense: the sacrifice is not a play where everyone is behaving appropriately according to his/her role. The "play" isn't such a play, for it implies real suffering, and real cruelty, and real forgiveness. Moreover, I am rather pro- thinking that even the closest disciples didn't realize at the time of those events all the grandeur and all the meaning of the Event itself. Therefore, the exo-event is not less
        important then the esoterically understood one.

        Therefore, I still believe that the pre-planing , the foretold nature of that event does not decrease the reality of all the feelings, thoughts, sufferings and cruelties or dilemmas (Pilat e.g.) involved. I.e. the murderers were actually willing to have the man killed, and the Christ wanted to pass through all these with real holly patience and love.

        In my opinion, one wiling to go directly to the esoteric meaning, ignoring the pure external actions and real primary feelings (the primary human reactions), won't succeed to do so as one who first suffered, co-felt him/herself together with those whom he's thinking (reading) about.

        In a way I tried here to react also to the kind Sándor Albert remarks.

        All these should be
        backed up, I believe, by one observation: esoteric knowledge are usually involve the heads, not quite the hearts; and the commoners' exoteric view and feelings are often deeper, so that the behavior of such a man would be a genuine Christian one even without much esotericism in the head.

        As for the Hebrew Passover calculation, I will continue to dig further, since I still can't understand the timing (consequence and its logic) of the end of the Passion Week. Of course a Rabi would be very helpful here, but I can't get to one here, unfortunately.

        Thank you all

        Andrei

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:05:39 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re:Murder or Sacrafice?

        Andrei:
        Of course, the sacrifice is what actually He came for at that time - around 2 millenniums ago. But, as He used to say: What is come tome, shall come, but sin is on him through whom that event is made to come. (Please forgive my frivolous phrasing of the Gospel's passages.)

        Dottie:
        Hey Andrei, it seems to me the sacrafice was planned way in advance for both, the Nathan child, and also the Christ. Sin came in at the beginning of the world. We are all born into sin by the very nature of the Fall it seems. Or at least so is my debating with my friend E. who keeps honing in on that point specifically. Me, personally, I never thought of it in that manner, however after reading your words above, I think I am going to have to give a point to E.

        Karma is karma. Look at Hitler and any of the grave injustices that befell our world, all have a price to pay. And it was Christ from the Cross who said 'forgive them for they know not what they do'. And it seems to me that we can apply this to our very own selves as well as we still continue till this day to sacrafice the Christ by not waking up to our shadows and how we are asleep in our thinking feeling and willing towards not only others but also ourseleves and our angels.

        And we can look at the statement of Christ wherby He states that those who will are first will be last and those who are last will be the first to come into the Kingdom. We can also look at the idea of 'it is harder for a man of God to get into the Kingdom then a camel through the eye of a needle'. These are all testaments that speak to the difficulties ...(I had to save this and come back a few hours later so I am not sure I can pick up the thread of this thought properly.)

        Andrei:
        If we look at the event of Calvarium (Golgotha) with the eyes of Jesus or one who has the appropriate understanding, then the event is called SACRIFICE. If looked through those willing to fulfill it (Hebrew priests e.g.), then it's a murder. And it should be like that, otherwise there wouldn't be any truthfulness in that sacrifice. Sacrifice is meant to be two-folded.

        Dottie: I have to disagree with your thought of the murder aspect due to the fact that they were 'willing' to carry out the sacrafice. I think of these Jews sacraficing themselves, including Judas, till the end of time when all will be right again in the world. Did we think Christ would just walk in there and be accepted? No we did not. Was this not already fortold in the spiritual worlds before the human beings ever even walked that path? I think so.

        I think sacrafice is meant to be twofolded, I can agree with that. What I do not agree with is the term murder. I think it takes away from the sacrafice. And it assumes that only the Christ sacraficed. The others were sacraficed as well by the shere act of doing the deed.

        Andrei:
        About the calculation - at least I would like to hear from some one knowing it - was the Hebrew Passover celebrated exactly on 14 day of Nissan regardless of the day (an ordinary one or the end of week - Sabbath), or it was usually the Sabbath. Sorry for insistence, but I didn't get it from other sources. If the 14th day of Nissan month could be any day, not only the Sabbath, then it would more easier for me to understand the Final Supper of Jesus and his disciples (in sense of timing).

        Dottie: I will ask my Rabbi but it seems to me it would have had to have been on the Sabbath. That is known as the Queen's Day and it is sacred and Holy and it is in direct working with the Moon as far as I understand it to be. I will double check. We can do the Ask Moses page on the internet. He was sacraficed on the Eve...well I will double check.

        Andrei:
        You also said something like you admire the Jews for protecting the Femenin.

        Dottie: The soul. That aspect that moves with man, the Shekinah, the Anthroposphia Being.

        Andrei:
        In this sense a tableau immediately comes to my mind: the husband washing the feet of his wife. Very good. Another immediate re-action: Paul (Saul) establishing the rules for the Christ's church: a real patriarchal church, where the women's place is not the best one. Woman is less then a man... and so on. Ok. Anyway, I'm not blaming any own, since the attitude towards anyone is first of course in our own hands and not in Paul's ones.

        Dottie: It is of question whether that is a truth about Paul as his disciples, and speakers are now known to have been women. Not only that but it is considered to have been altered in that manner of communication to bolster Peter's stance over the Magdalene.

        Andrei:
        As to 'we all are Jews'. Yes :) , that's right . Look at the Bible. Which part of it is bigger: the Christological one, or the Hebrew one? Even He used to say: I didn't came to break the Law (the Hebrew Law)... And now we have the situation when many Christians use to hate Jews...

        Dottie: I agree that it is now used. We have unfortunately lost the understanding that Abraham is our father in this one religious understanding of the Earth Sun and Moon.

        Thanks for the conversation,
        Dottie

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      • dottie zold
        Dearest Andrei, I agree with you completely about the sadness and pain of such a beautiful Being having to undergo what was to be. That always lives with me in
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 29, 2008

          Dearest Andrei,

           

          I agree with you completely about the sadness and pain of such a beautiful Being having to undergo what was to be. That always lives with me in my strivings. I don't wear it on my sleeve however as its no longer in my nature to do so. I think throughout my various biographies it was this way.

           

          I think if we consider Rudolf Steiner's legacy of bringing forth clear understandings of karma and reincarnation we can have a feel for our ongoing biographies. I know for mine it is that I have witnessed, whether at the time on the earth or from the spiritual worlds, what had taken place at Golgotha. And due to this I am a warrior for mankind and his overcoming of the things of this world to recognize and come to embody our true birthrite. I think that can be true for most anthroposophists.

           

          So for me, I had taken in what occurred but I can not live in that. It weaves within me ever and ever, and so as what was given for me and my salvation and the salvation of my people moves me to be strengthened in that pain not cowered or saddened by it. I am more saddend by the state we find ourselves in now, however as a warrior who stands in front of Michael, leading the battle, I am called to know that we have overcome. It is said that Michael of all the archangels, stands alone with the flag of knowledge that man has overcome. Although saddened by the events He too can not live in that sadness. Forever we are moving forward. As in any biography it is the quality of what occurred and its resonance within man and the earth that is carried forth, not the physical deed of it.

           

          It is the sadness of the sadness of things that could have occurred. And I am so grateful, and words can not express my love for the deed on Golgotha.

           

          All good good things,

          Dottie

           



          --- On Tue, 4/29/08, Andrei O. <amail4andrei@...> wrote:

          From: Andrei O. <amail4andrei@...>
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice
          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 11:55 AM

          Dear Dottie,

          I do agree with you and Sandor with everything. Just that I wanted to make these tableau a little bit more human. Many words could be added to this, but I won't go deeper into details for the time being, all the more so that in my previous message I covered this in a way.

          However, after reading this message of your, dear Dottie, may I dare to draw your attention to a place of the Gospel (the Luke's one). I am sure you know that place, that is why I won't spend time in finding the exact phrasing of it in English and will say with my words: "A sword will pierce your soul..."... That is - even by knowing something you can't get rid of feeling the sadness or com-passion.

          Andrei




          ----- Original Message ----
          From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:09:41 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

          Dear Andrei and Friends,
          I think I may have used the term 'play' but I want to share that I implied this means there was no gravity or suffering to what had occurred. Obviously there was to all. And to me this was already known in the spiritual worlds. For this the angels did cry when Christ descended. The fight had already been played out in the spiritual worlds. But this again does not imply it was not a great tragedy for all involved. To me that it would have come to this was the tragedy in and of itself: that one had to leave the spiritual worlds in the manner the Christ did, and to be seen by all, must have been like a crucifixion its very self.

          The sin was the Fall. Mankind did not need to have this occur and was taken off its rightful path if we understand Steiner to be correct or near to something true. Our path was to attain its evolution in another manner however it did not turn out that way for variou reasons we can imagine. And a sacrafice was made again by Eve who recognized that damn apple and what was needed for mankind.

          I would like to day that the disciples were unaware of the sacrafice to come. That may be true for some but that was not true for the Magdalene nor Lazarus. Both being connected to John the Baptist in the manner they were I understand that they too knew of what was to come. I think we can find understanding for that if we sense into who those two beings are/were and their connection to the Sophian forces. As the Magdalene sat in for the Mary's she would have had, as John, the full on Sophian understanding of what was to occur and for what it was occurring.

          Saint Catherine was not correct in what she had shared regarding the Magdalene pulling her hair and eyes out. What is interesting also is that it is Saint Catherine who came to Saint Jeanne of Arc as well as Saint Margaret. Now, I have not done my homework on why these two Saints along with Archangel Michael appeared to Jeanne as well as Mary, understood at this time to have been the mother and not the Magdalene (although we don't have enough information as of yet to determine her exact understanding of which one it was) but it would seem to me that as the two showed up during the Transfiguration, we can know there is an exact reason why those two saints appear to Jeanne. If we look at that we actually have John/Ann just as we did with the mother of Mary. It's very very interesting to say the least.

          In any case, I put my slide to that there were two who did forsee this and it was known to them. And these two had the presence of mind to be on Golgotha at this moment in time.

          All good things and thanks Andrei,
          Dottie

          --- On Tue, 4/29/08, Andrei O. <amail4andrei@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: Andrei O. <amail4andrei@ yahoo.co
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re:Murder or Sacrafice?
          To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 9:18 AM

          Dear all,

          I felt it necessary to give the exact quotation, as it is in English, of the words i referred to. They are to be found in John 19:

          10 "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
          11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
          There are also other places where He talks about the inevitability and actually need for that sacrifice, and I am sure you know them well.

          And, actually, based not just on what was written, but trying to feel it in practical sense, to put yourself in another's shoes in a sense: the sacrifice is not a play where everyone is behaving appropriately according to his/her role. The "play" isn't such a play, for it implies real suffering, and real cruelty, and real forgiveness. Moreover, I am rather pro- thinking that even the closest disciples didn't realize at the time of those events all the grandeur and all the meaning of the Event itself. Therefore, the exo-event is not less
          important then the esoterically understood one.

          Therefore, I still believe that the pre-planing , the foretold nature of that event does not decrease the reality of all the feelings, thoughts, sufferings and cruelties or dilemmas (Pilat e.g.) involved. I.e. the murderers were actually willing to have the man killed, and the Christ wanted to pass through all these with real holly patience and love.

          In my opinion, one wiling to go directly to the esoteric meaning, ignoring the pure external actions and real primary feelings (the primary human reactions), won't succeed to do so as one who first suffered, co-felt him/herself together with those whom he's thinking (reading) about.

          In a way I tried here to react also to the kind Sándor Albert remarks.

          All these should be
          backed up, I believe, by one observation: esoteric knowledge are usually involve the heads, not quite the hearts; and the commoners' exoteric view and feelings are often deeper, so that the behavior of such a man would be a genuine Christian one even without much esotericism in the head.

          As for the Hebrew Passover calculation, I will continue to dig further, since I still can't understand the timing (consequence and its logic) of the end of the Passion Week. Of course a Rabi would be very helpful here, but I can't get to one here, unfortunately.

          Thank you all

          Andrei

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
          To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:05:39 AM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re:Murder or Sacrafice?

          Andrei:
          Of course, the sacrifice is what actually He came for at that time - around 2 millenniums ago. But, as He used to say: What is come tome, shall come, but sin is on him through whom that event is made to come. (Please forgive my frivolous phrasing of the Gospel's passages.)

          Dottie:
          Hey Andrei, it seems to me the sacrafice was planned way in advance for both, the Nathan child, and also the Christ. Sin came in at the beginning of the world. We are all born into sin by the very nature of the Fall it seems. Or at least so is my debating with my friend E. who keeps honing in on that point specifically. Me, personally, I never thought of it in that manner, however after reading your words above, I think I am going to have to give a point to E.

          Karma is karma. Look at Hitler and any of the grave injustices that befell our world, all have a price to pay. And it was Christ from the Cross who said 'forgive them for they know not what they do'. And it seems to me that we can apply this to our very own selves as well as we still continue till this day to sacrafice the Christ by not waking up to our shadows and how we are asleep in our thinking feeling and willing towards not only others but also ourseleves and our angels.

          And we can look at the statement of Christ wherby He states that those who will are first will be last and those who are last will be the first to come into the Kingdom. We can also look at the idea of 'it is harder for a man of God to get into the Kingdom then a camel through the eye of a needle'. These are all testaments that speak to the difficulties ...(I had to save this and come back a few hours later so I am not sure I can pick up the thread of this thought properly.)

          Andrei:
          If we look at the event of Calvarium (Golgotha) with the eyes of Jesus or one who has the appropriate understanding, then the event is called SACRIFICE. If looked through those willing to fulfill it (Hebrew priests e.g.), then it's a murder. And it should be like that, otherwise there wouldn't be any truthfulness in that sacrifice. Sacrifice is meant to be two-folded.

          Dottie: I have to disagree with your thought of the murder aspect due to the fact that they were 'willing' to carry out the sacrafice. I think of these Jews sacraficing themselves, including Judas, till the end of time when all will be right again in the world. Did we think Christ would just walk in there and be accepted? No we did not. Was this not already fortold in the spiritual worlds before the human beings ever even walked that path? I think so.

          I think sacrafice is meant to be twofolded, I can agree with that. What I do not agree with is the term murder. I think it takes away from the sacrafice. And it assumes that only the Christ sacraficed. The others were sacraficed as well by the shere act of doing the deed.

          Andrei:
          About the calculation - at least I would like to hear from some one knowing it - was the Hebrew Passover celebrated exactly on 14 day of Nissan regardless of the day (an ordinary one or the end of week - Sabbath), or it was usually the Sabbath. Sorry for insistence, but I didn't get it from other sources. If the 14th day of Nissan month could be any day, not only the Sabbath, then it would more easier for me to understand the Final Supper of Jesus and his disciples (in sense of timing).

          Dottie: I will ask my Rabbi but it seems to me it would have had to have been on the Sabbath. That is known as the Queen's Day and it is sacred and Holy and it is in direct working with the Moon as far as I understand it to be. I will double check. We can do the Ask Moses page on the internet. He was sacraficed on the Eve...well I will double check.

          Andrei:
          You also said something like you admire the Jews for protecting the Femenin.

          Dottie: The soul. That aspect that moves with man, the Shekinah, the Anthroposphia Being.

          Andrei:
          In this sense a tableau immediately comes to my mind: the husband washing the feet of his wife. Very good. Another immediate re-action: Paul (Saul) establishing the rules for the Christ's church: a real patriarchal church, where the women's place is not the best one. Woman is less then a man... and so on. Ok. Anyway, I'm not blaming any own, since the attitude towards anyone is first of course in our own hands and not in Paul's ones.

          Dottie: It is of question whether that is a truth about Paul as his disciples, and speakers are now known to have been women. Not only that but it is considered to have been altered in that manner of communication to bolster Peter's stance over the Magdalene.

          Andrei:
          As to 'we all are Jews'. Yes :) , that's right . Look at the Bible. Which part of it is bigger: the Christological one, or the Hebrew one? Even He used to say: I didn't came to break the Law (the Hebrew Law)... And now we have the situation when many Christians use to hate Jews...

          Dottie: I agree that it is now used. We have unfortunately lost the understanding that Abraham is our father in this one religious understanding of the Earth Sun and Moon.

          Thanks for the conversation,
          Dottie

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        • dottie zold
          ... Thanks, d ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 29, 2008
            Should read:

            > I think I may have used the term 'play' but I want
            > to share that I DO NOT implY(d) this means there was no gravity or
            > suffering to what had occurred.

            Thanks,
            d


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          • Albert Sándor
            Apparently there is a great lack in my understanding of this matter. I mean, I understand it well, intellectually ... but of what use ? I admit I did not
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 30, 2008
              Apparently there is a great lack in my understanding of this matter.
              I mean, I understand it well, intellectually ... but of what use ? I admit I did not meditate or consciously sought answers with my heart to the extent of aquiring a deeper sense and personal acception of The Mistery of THe Golgotha.
              But you have to forgive me, as lately I have been so busy preventing Lucifer and Ahriman taking over my life, that I could not identify with others' sufferings - be it that of The Christ. I am in a position where I have to spare others on the price of my pain - and I am not at all used to this kind of behavior.
              It seems that the more I struggle to become better, the more it is thrown at me - Steiner said noone should overdo any spiritual exercise, especially not on the expense of his other duties. After dedicating a lot of time and effort to truth seeking, searching, learning, self discipline, I had to realize that the best spiritual practice is living ones own life, in a meaningful manner. (The lucifer being in me just hates this)
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

              Should read:

              > I think I may have used the term 'play' but I want
              > to share that I DO NOT implY(d) this means there was no gravity or
              > suffering to what had occurred.

              Thanks,
              d

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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              know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ

            • Albert Sándor
              And dig out the skeletons of the past, and put them to rest for good ... ... From: Albert Sándor To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday,
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 30, 2008
                And dig out the skeletons of the past, and put them to rest for good ...
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:20 AM
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                Apparently there is a great lack in my understanding of this matter.
                I mean, I understand it well, intellectually ... but of what use ? I admit I did not meditate or consciously sought answers with my heart to the extent of aquiring a deeper sense and personal acception of The Mistery of THe Golgotha.
                But you have to forgive me, as lately I have been so busy preventing Lucifer and Ahriman taking over my life, that I could not identify with others' sufferings - be it that of The Christ. I am in a position where I have to spare others on the price of my pain - and I am not at all used to this kind of behavior.
                It seems that the more I struggle to become better, the more it is thrown at me - Steiner said noone should overdo any spiritual exercise, especially not on the expense of his other duties. After dedicating a lot of time and effort to truth seeking, searching, learning, self discipline, I had to realize that the best spiritual practice is living ones own life, in a meaningful manner. (The lucifer being in me just hates this)
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:53 PM
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                Should read:

                > I think I may have used the term 'play' but I want
                > to share that I DO NOT implY(d) this means there was no gravity or
                > suffering to what had occurred.

                Thanks,
                d

                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                Be a better friend, newshound, and
                know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ

              • Albert Sándor
                Ok, what do you make of this ? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfUjfioAnKY ... From: Albert Sándor To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 30, 2008
                  Ok, what do you make of this ? :
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                  And dig out the skeletons of the past, and put them to rest for good ...
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:20 AM
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                  Apparently there is a great lack in my understanding of this matter.
                  I mean, I understand it well, intellectually ... but of what use ? I admit I did not meditate or consciously sought answers with my heart to the extent of aquiring a deeper sense and personal acception of The Mistery of THe Golgotha.
                  But you have to forgive me, as lately I have been so busy preventing Lucifer and Ahriman taking over my life, that I could not identify with others' sufferings - be it that of The Christ. I am in a position where I have to spare others on the price of my pain - and I am not at all used to this kind of behavior.
                  It seems that the more I struggle to become better, the more it is thrown at me - Steiner said noone should overdo any spiritual exercise, especially not on the expense of his other duties. After dedicating a lot of time and effort to truth seeking, searching, learning, self discipline, I had to realize that the best spiritual practice is living ones own life, in a meaningful manner. (The lucifer being in me just hates this)
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                  Should read:

                  > I think I may have used the term 'play' but I want
                  > to share that I DO NOT implY(d) this means there was no gravity or
                  > suffering to what had occurred.

                  Thanks,
                  d

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  Be a better friend, newshound, and
                  know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ

                • Andrei O.
                  is this a big deal of... of what? ... From: Albert Sándor To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 30, 2008

                    is this a big deal of... of what?


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Albert Sándor <montek@...>
                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 1:33:56 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                    Ok, what do you make of this ? :
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:22 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                    And dig out the skeletons of the past, and put them to rest for good ...
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:20 AM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                    Apparently there is a great lack in my understanding of this matter.
                    I mean, I understand it well, intellectually ... but of what use ? I admit I did not meditate or consciously sought answers with my heart to the extent of aquiring a deeper sense and personal acception of The Mistery of THe Golgotha.
                    But you have to forgive me, as lately I have been so busy preventing Lucifer and Ahriman taking over my life, that I could not identify with others' sufferings - be it that of The Christ. I am in a position where I have to spare others on the price of my pain - and I am not at all used to this kind of behavior.
                    It seems that the more I struggle to become better, the more it is thrown at me - Steiner said noone should overdo any spiritual exercise, especially not on the expense of his other duties. After dedicating a lot of time and effort to truth seeking, searching, learning, self discipline, I had to realize that the best spiritual practice is living ones own life, in a meaningful manner. (The lucifer being in me just hates this)
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:53 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Sacrafice

                    Should read:

                    > I think I may have used the term 'play' but I want
                    > to share that I DO NOT implY(d) this means there was no gravity or
                    > suffering to what had occurred.

                    Thanks,
                    d

                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                    Be a better friend, newshound, and
                    know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ




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