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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re:Murder or Sacrafice?

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  • dottie zold
    Andrei: Of course, the sacrifice is what actually He came for at that time - around 2 millenniums ago. But, as He used to say: What is come tome, shall come,
    Message 1 of 55 , Apr 28, 2008
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      Andrei:
      Of course, the sacrifice is what actually He came for at that time - around 2 millenniums ago. But, as He used to say: What is come tome, shall come, but sin is on him through whom that event is made to come. (Please forgive my frivolous phrasing of the Gospel's passages.)

       

      Dottie:

      Hey Andrei, it seems to me the sacrafice was planned way in advance for both, the Nathan child, and also the Christ. Sin came in at the beginning of the world. We are all born into sin by the very nature of the Fall it seems. Or at least so is my debating with my friend E. who keeps honing in on that point specifically. Me, personally, I never thought of it in that manner, however after reading your words above, I think I am going to have to give a point to E.

       

      Karma is karma. Look at Hitler and any of the grave injustices that befell our world, all have a price to pay. And it was Christ from the Cross who said 'forgive them for they know not what they do'. And it seems to me that we can apply this to our very own selves as well as we still continue till this day to sacrafice the Christ by not waking up to our shadows and how we are asleep in our thinking feeling and willing towards not only others but also ourseleves and our angels.

       

      And we can look at the statement of Christ wherby He states that those who will are first will be last and those who are last will be the first to come into the Kingdom. We can also look at the idea of 'it is harder for a man of God to get into the Kingdom then a camel through the eye of a needle'. These are all testaments that speak to the difficulties ...(I had to save this and come back a few hours later so I am not sure I can pick up the thread of this thought properly.)


      Andrei:
      If we look at the event of Calvarium (Golgotha) with the eyes of Jesus or one who has the appropriate understanding, then the event is called SACRIFICE. If looked through those willing to fulfill it (Hebrew priests e.g.), then it's a murder. And it should be like that, otherwise there wouldn't be any truthfulness in that sacrifice. Sacrifice is meant to be two-folded.

       

      Dottie: I have to disagree with your thought of the murder aspect due to the fact that they were 'willing' to carry out the sacrafice. I think of these Jews sacraficing themselves, including Judas, till the end of time when all will be right again in the world. Did we think Christ would just walk in there and be accepted? No we did not. Was this not already fortold in the spiritual worlds before the human beings ever even walked that path? I think so.

       

      I think sacrafice is meant to be twofolded, I can agree with that. What I do not agree with  is the term murder. I think it takes away from the sacrafice. And it assumes that only the Christ sacraficed. The others were sacraficed as well by the shere act of doing the deed.

       

      Andrei:
      About the calculation - at least I would like to hear from some one knowing it - was the Hebrew Passover celebrated exactly on 14 day of Nissan regardless of the day (an ordinary one or the end of week - Sabbath), or it was usually the Sabbath. Sorry for insistence, but I didn't get it from other sources. If the 14th day of Nissan month could be any day, not only the Sabbath, then it would more easier for me to understand the Final Supper of Jesus and his disciples (in sense of timing).

       

      Dottie: I will ask my Rabbi but it seems to me it would have had to have been on the Sabbath. That is known as the Queen's Day and it is sacred and Holy and it is in direct working with the Moon as far as I understand it to be. I will double check. We can do the Ask Moses page on the internet. He was sacraficed on the Eve...well I will double check.

       

      Andrei:
      You also said something like you admire the Jews for protecting the Femenin.

       

      Dottie: The soul. That aspect that moves with man, the Shekinah, the Anthroposphia Being.


      Andrei:
       In this sense a tableau immediately comes to my mind: the husband washing the feet of his wife. Very good. Another immediate re-action: Paul (Saul) establishing the rules for the Christ's church: a real patriarchal church, where the women's place is not the best one. Woman is less then a man... and so on. Ok. Anyway, I'm not blaming any own, since the attitude towards anyone is first of course in our own hands and not in Paul's ones.

       

      Dottie: It is of question whether that is a truth about Paul as his disciples, and speakers are now known to have been women. Not only that but it is considered to have been altered in that manner of communication to bolster Peter's stance over the Magdalene.

       

      Andrei:
      As to 'we all are Jews'. Yes :) , that's right . Look at the Bible. Which part of it is bigger: the Christological one, or the Hebrew one? Even He used to say: I didn't came to break the Law (the Hebrew Law)... And now we have the situation when many Christians use to hate Jews...

       

      Dottie: I agree that it is now used. We have unfortunately lost the understanding that Abraham is our father in this one religious understanding of the Earth Sun and Moon.

       

      Thanks for the conversation,
      Dottie



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    • Andrei O.
      Dear all, I felt it necessary to give the exact quotation, as it is in English, of the words i referred to. They are to be found in John 19: 10 Do you refuse
      Message 55 of 55 , Apr 29, 2008
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        Dear all,

        I felt it necessary to give the exact quotation, as it is in English, of the words i referred to. They are to be found in John 19:

        10
        "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

        11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."


        There are also other places where He talks about the inevitability and actually need for that sacrifice, and I am sure you know them well.

        And, actually, based not just on what was written, but trying to feel it in practical sense, to put yourself in another's shoes in a sense: the sacrifice is not a play where everyone is behaving appropriately according to his/her role. The "play" isn't such a play, for it implies real suffering, and real cruelty, and real forgiveness. Moreover, I am rather pro- thinking that even the closest disciples didn't realize at the time of those events all the grandeur and all the meaning of the Event itself. Therefore, the exo-event is not less important then the esoterically understood one.

        Therefore, I still believe that the pre-planing , the foretold nature of that event does not decrease the reality of all the feelings, thoughts, sufferings and cruelties or dilemmas (Pilat e.g.) involved. I.e. the murderers were actually willing to have the man killed, and the Christ wanted to pass through all these with real holly patience and love.

        In my opinion, one wiling to go directly to the esoteric meaning, ignoring the pure external actions and real primary feelings (the primary human reactions), won't succeed to do so as one who first suffered, co-felt him/herself together with those whom he's thinking (reading) about.

        In a way I tried here to react also to the kind Sándor Albert remarks.

        All these should be backed up, I believe, by one observation: esoteric knowledge are usually involve the heads, not quite the hearts; and the commoners' exoteric view and feelings are often deeper, so that the behavior of such a man would be a genuine Christian one even without much esotericism in the head.

        As for the Hebrew Passover calculation, I will continue to dig further, since I still can't understand the timing (consequence and its logic) of the end of the Passion Week. Of course a Rabi would be very helpful here, but I can't get to one here, unfortunately.

        Thank you all

        Andrei


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:05:39 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re:Murder or Sacrafice?

        Andrei:
        Of course, the sacrifice is what actually He came for at that time - around 2 millenniums ago. But, as He used to say: What is come tome, shall come, but sin is on him through whom that event is made to come. (Please forgive my frivolous phrasing of the Gospel's passages.)

         

        Dottie:

        Hey Andrei, it seems to me the sacrafice was planned way in advance for both, the Nathan child, and also the Christ. Sin came in at the beginning of the world. We are all born into sin by the very nature of the Fall it seems. Or at least so is my debating with my friend E. who keeps honing in on that point specifically. Me, personally, I never thought of it in that manner, however after reading your words above, I think I am going to have to give a point to E.

         

        Karma is karma. Look at Hitler and any of the grave injustices that befell our world, all have a price to pay. And it was Christ from the Cross who said 'forgive them for they know not what they do'. And it seems to me that we can apply this to our very own selves as well as we still continue till this day to sacrafice the Christ by not waking up to our shadows and how we are asleep in our thinking feeling and willing towards not only others but also ourseleves and our angels.

         

        And we can look at the statement of Christ wherby He states that those who will are first will be last and those who are last will be the first to come into the Kingdom. We can also look at the idea of 'it is harder for a man of God to get into the Kingdom then a camel through the eye of a needle'. These are all testaments that speak to the difficulties ...(I had to save this and come back a few hours later so I am not sure I can pick up the thread of this thought properly.)


        Andrei:
        If we look at the event of Calvarium (Golgotha) with the eyes of Jesus or one who has the appropriate understanding, then the event is called SACRIFICE. If looked through those willing to fulfill it (Hebrew priests e.g.), then it's a murder. And it should be like that, otherwise there wouldn't be any truthfulness in that sacrifice. Sacrifice is meant to be two-folded.

         

        Dottie: I have to disagree with your thought of the murder aspect due to the fact that they were 'willing' to carry out the sacrafice. I think of these Jews sacraficing themselves, including Judas, till the end of time when all will be right again in the world. Did we think Christ would just walk in there and be accepted? No we did not. Was this not already fortold in the spiritual worlds before the human beings ever even walked that path? I think so.

         

        I think sacrafice is meant to be twofolded, I can agree with that. What I do not agree with  is the term murder. I think it takes away from the sacrafice. And it assumes that only the Christ sacraficed. The others were sacraficed as well by the shere act of doing the deed.

         

        Andrei:
        About the calculation - at least I would like to hear from some one knowing it - was the Hebrew Passover celebrated exactly on 14 day of Nissan regardless of the day (an ordinary one or the end of week - Sabbath), or it was usually the Sabbath. Sorry for insistence, but I didn't get it from other sources. If the 14th day of Nissan month could be any day, not only the Sabbath, then it would more easier for me to understand the Final Supper of Jesus and his disciples (in sense of timing).

         

        Dottie: I will ask my Rabbi but it seems to me it would have had to have been on the Sabbath. That is known as the Queen's Day and it is sacred and Holy and it is in direct working with the Moon as far as I understand it to be. I will double check. We can do the Ask Moses page on the internet. He was sacraficed on the Eve...well I will double check.

         

        Andrei:
        You also said something like you admire the Jews for protecting the Femenin.

         

        Dottie: The soul. That aspect that moves with man, the Shekinah, the Anthroposphia Being.


        Andrei:
         In this sense a tableau immediately comes to my mind: the husband washing the feet of his wife. Very good. Another immediate re-action: Paul (Saul) establishing the rules for the Christ's church: a real patriarchal church, where the women's place is not the best one. Woman is less then a man... and so on. Ok. Anyway, I'm not blaming any own, since the attitude towards anyone is first of course in our own hands and not in Paul's ones.

         

        Dottie: It is of question whether that is a truth about Paul as his disciples, and speakers are now known to have been women. Not only that but it is considered to have been altered in that manner of communication to bolster Peter's stance over the Magdalene.

         

        Andrei:
        As to 'we all are Jews'. Yes :) , that's right . Look at the Bible. Which part of it is bigger: the Christological one, or the Hebrew one? Even He used to say: I didn't came to break the Law (the Hebrew Law)... And now we have the situation when many Christians use to hate Jews...

         

        Dottie: I agree that it is now used. We have unfortunately lost the understanding that Abraham is our father in this one religious understanding of the Earth Sun and Moon.

         

        Thanks for the conversation,
        Dottie



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