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on ahriman

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  • SCos
    In Goethe s case, he called the Devil Mephistopeles, who was identified as Ahriman or Satan by the Doctor, who attributed to Goethe a certain confusion of
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 19, 2008
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      "In Goethe's case, he called the Devil Mephistopeles, who was identified as Ahriman or Satan by the Doctor, who attributed to Goethe a certain confusion of  Lucifer and Ahriman in the Mephistopheles character, so that he became some sort of "Lucifer-Ahriman", albeit with Ahriman as the predominant character."
       
      tarjai,  your lucifer/ahriman is confusing, HUH??well goethe was no fool. so where did this ahriman spirit come from?
       
      well, we know the name comes from persian cosmology, the dualistic theology of zarathustra. the original theology, there was the duality of spenista mainyu,  later RS calls him ahura mazda  and angra mainyu, later called ahriman. the former is the good, the source of the spirits of light and ahriman was the evil one, source of the spirits of darkness. these two spirits fought each other throughout created time, thru several ages of humanity at the end of which, ahriman looses to AM. however, these two are inherently equal, uncreated and there was no quarantee that with 2 equal spirits fighting, that one really defeat the other.
       
      after the turning point in  time, the zurvanite heresy took shape. the new zoroastrians took the god of time, zurvan, and made him the father of ahura mazda and ahriman.  and since ahura was born first, he would be the last in time, also. this was carried forward in the persian theology that if you start a cycle of 12 manvantaras, if the first is good, then evil, then good, etc., both the first and last cycle is good, and evil is redeemed. end of problem
       
      goethe took the evil qualities of ahriman and also gave him some good qualities, sort of mixing ahura and ahriman into a single spirit of darkness. this is what RS objected to. but RS only objected and created his ahriman-lucifer-Christ trinity after 1909. in 1909 his lecture THE DEED OF CHRIST said that lucifer was the holy ghost. never before did RS say that nor never again. after 1909, RS protrayed this trinity as a lucifer-ahriman duality with Christ as the mediator in between.
       
      but if lucifer is the holy ghost, the 3rd person of the most hoy trinity, then the holy ghost fell with lucifer at the FALL of mankind during the lemurian age. using the persian duality of zurman with his 2 sons, is is more likely that lucifer was ahura mazda as polar oppisite to ahriman. what fell during the FALL of mankind, it was the phantom body of mankind, it fell from invisibility inot matter and visibility. the holy ghost was that phantom body of mankind before the fall, of which lucifer was the material form. 
       
      there was no need for RS to create ahriman as a separate spiritual being, as the polar opposite to ahura/holy ghost/lucifer. lucifer as the holy ghost was a single spiritual being before the FALL, but after, he cleaved off ahriman, the way single cell mitosis occurs. ahriman became the cosmic karma of lucifer. lucifer was the light bearer, he made light visible, ahriman was the fallen light. the event at golgatha redeemed lucifer, restored the seed for the phantom body as RS described and set the framework for to restored the holy ghost into one spiritual being again. lucifer/ahriman was formerly one single being, cleaved at the fall and now the evolution of redeemption has begun. as each preson restores their own phantom body over the course of successive incarnations, microcosmically, so does the redemption of lucifer happen macrocosmically. lucifer and ahriman do not exist infinitely over time fighting each other with Christ as the mediator. the redemption of lucifer includes the redemption of ahriman back into a single spirit. think of the many times RS said that lucifer and ahriman actually work together on certain matters.
       
      of course, neither anthroposophy nor the catholic church, needs such heresy, but there it is.
      stephen  
    • dottie zold
      Stephen, are you saying that Steiner made up Ahriman? I am thinking I may be misunderstanding your words but maybe not. There are three mentioned in
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 20, 2008
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        Stephen, are you saying that Steiner 'made up' Ahriman? I am thinking I may be misunderstanding your words but maybe not. There are three mentioned in Revelations, are you aware of where they exist in that book and how they might be applied to Lucifer, Ahriman, and Sorat? Do you not hold that Ahriman is a Being due to the idea that Steiner 'made him up'? if that be your point?

         

        I have read Rudolf Steiner speak of Ahriman as the karma of Lucifer? Have you heard that? I've also read that Ahriman is more powerful then Michael according to Steiner. Have you read any of this and if so what do you make of it, if it is anything other than 'he made it up'.

         

        Good Sunday to All,

        Dottie

        --- On Sat, 4/19/08, SCos <vtsophia@...> wrote:

        From: SCos <vtsophia@...>
        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman
        To: "anthro- tomorrow" <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Saturday, April 19, 2008, 11:47 AM

        "In Goethe's case, he called the Devil Mephistopeles, who was identified as Ahriman or Satan by the Doctor, who attributed to Goethe a certain confusion of  Lucifer and Ahriman in the Mephistopheles character, so that he became some sort of "Lucifer-Ahriman", albeit with Ahriman as the predominant character."
         
        tarjai,  your lucifer/ahriman is confusing, HUH??well goethe was no fool. so where did this ahriman spirit come from?
         
        well, we know the name comes from persian cosmology, the dualistic theology of zarathustra. the original theology, there was the duality of spenista mainyu,  later RS calls him ahura mazda  and angra mainyu, later called ahriman. the former is the good, the source of the spirits of light and ahriman was the evil one, source of the spirits of darkness. these two spirits fought each other throughout created time, thru several ages of humanity at the end of which, ahriman looses to AM. however, these two are inherently equal, uncreated and there was no quarantee that with 2 equal spirits fighting, that one really defeat the other.
         
        after the turning point in  time, the zurvanite heresy took shape. the new zoroastrians took the god of time, zurvan, and made him the father of ahura mazda and ahriman.  and since ahura was born first, he would be the last in time, also. this was carried forward in the persian theology that if you start a cycle of 12 manvantaras, if the first is good, then evil, then good, etc., both the first and last cycle is good, and evil is redeemed. end of problem
         
        goethe took the evil qualities of ahriman and also gave him some good qualities, sort of mixing ahura and ahriman into a single spirit of darkness. this is what RS objected to. but RS only objected and created his ahriman-lucifer-Christ trinity after 1909. in 1909 his lecture THE DEED OF CHRIST said that lucifer was the holy ghost. never before did RS say that nor never again. after 1909, RS protrayed this trinity as a lucifer-ahriman duality with Christ as the mediator in between.
         
        but if lucifer is the holy ghost, the 3rd person of the most hoy trinity, then the holy ghost fell with lucifer at the FALL of mankind during the lemurian age. using the persian duality of zurman with his 2 sons, is is more likely that lucifer was ahura mazda as polar oppisite to ahriman. what fell during the FALL of mankind, it was the phantom body of mankind, it fell from invisibility inot matter and visibility. the holy ghost was that phantom body of mankind before the fall, of which lucifer was the material form. 
         
        there was no need for RS to create ahriman as a separate spiritual being, as the polar opposite to ahura/holy ghost/lucifer. lucifer as the holy ghost was a single spiritual being before the FALL, but after, he cleaved off ahriman, the way single cell mitosis occurs. ahriman became the cosmic karma of lucifer. lucifer was the light bearer, he made light visible, ahriman was the fallen light. the event at golgatha redeemed lucifer, restored the seed for the phantom body as RS described and set the framework for to restored the holy ghost into one spiritual being again. lucifer/ahriman was formerly one single being, cleaved at the fall and now the evolution of redeemption has begun. as each preson restores their own phantom body over the course of successive incarnations, microcosmically, so does the redemption of lucifer happen macrocosmically. lucifer and ahriman do not exist infinitely over time fighting each other with Christ as the mediator. the redemption of lucifer includes the redemption of ahriman back into a single spirit. think of the many times RS said that lucifer and ahriman actually work together on certain matters.
         
        of course, neither anthroposophy nor the catholic church, needs such heresy, but there it is.
        stephen  


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      • SCos
        dottie, I ve also read that Ahriman is more powerful then Michael according to Steinr. actually dottie, i would be careful of what you read, but RS did say
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 20, 2008
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          dottie, "I've also read that Ahriman is more powerful then Michael according to Steinr. "
           
          actually dottie, i would be careful of what you read, but RS did say that lucifer was more advanced that Christ. see THE COSMIC EGO AND THE HUMAN EGO 1912.
           
          and " I have read Rudolf Steiner speak of Ahriman as the karma of Lucifer?
           
          yes, i thought i just said that ahriman was the karmic bifurcation of lucifer. i would be happy to explain it to you if you can get over the "he made it up" hump.
          steven  
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 4:07 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman

          Stephen, are you saying that Steiner 'made up' Ahriman? I am thinking I may be misunderstanding your words but maybe not. There are three mentioned in Revelations, are you aware of where they exist in that book and how they might be applied to Lucifer, Ahriman, and Sorat? Do you not hold that Ahriman is a Being due to the idea that Steiner 'made him up'? if that be your point?

           

          I have read Rudolf Steiner speak of Ahriman as the karma of Lucifer? Have you heard that? I've also read that Ahriman is more powerful then Michael according to Steiner. Have you read any of this and if so what do you make of it, if it is anything other than 'he made it up'.

           

          Good Sunday to All,

          Dottie

          --- On Sat, 4/19/08, SCos <vtsophia@...> wrote:

          From: SCos <vtsophia@...>
          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman
          To: "anthro- tomorrow" <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Saturday, April 19, 2008, 11:47 AM

          "In Goethe's case, he called the Devil Mephistopeles, who was identified as Ahriman or Satan by the Doctor, who attributed to Goethe a certain confusion of  Lucifer and Ahriman in the Mephistopheles character, so that he became some sort of "Lucifer-Ahriman", albeit with Ahriman as the predominant character."
           
          tarjai,  your lucifer/ahriman is confusing, HUH??well goethe was no fool. so where did this ahriman spirit come from?
           
          well, we know the name comes from persian cosmology, the dualistic theology of zarathustra. the original theology, there was the duality of spenista mainyu,  later RS calls him ahura mazda  and angra mainyu, later called ahriman. the former is the good, the source of the spirits of light and ahriman was the evil one, source of the spirits of darkness. these two spirits fought each other throughout created time, thru several ages of humanity at the end of which, ahriman looses to AM. however, these two are inherently equal, uncreated and there was no quarantee that with 2 equal spirits fighting, that one really defeat the other.
           
          after the turning point in  time, the zurvanite heresy took shape. the new zoroastrians took the god of time, zurvan, and made him the father of ahura mazda and ahriman.  and since ahura was born first, he would be the last in time, also. this was carried forward in the persian theology that if you start a cycle of 12 manvantaras, if the first is good, then evil, then good, etc., both the first and last cycle is good, and evil is redeemed. end of problem
           
          goethe took the evil qualities of ahriman and also gave him some good qualities, sort of mixing ahura and ahriman into a single spirit of darkness. this is what RS objected to. but RS only objected and created his ahriman-lucifer-Christ trinity after 1909. in 1909 his lecture THE DEED OF CHRIST said that lucifer was the holy ghost. never before did RS say that nor never again. after 1909, RS protrayed this trinity as a lucifer-ahriman duality with Christ as the mediator in between.
           
          but if lucifer is the holy ghost, the 3rd person of the most hoy trinity, then the holy ghost fell with lucifer at the FALL of mankind during the lemurian age. using the persian duality of zurman with his 2 sons, is is more likely that lucifer was ahura mazda as polar oppisite to ahriman. what fell during the FALL of mankind, it was the phantom body of mankind, it fell from invisibility inot matter and visibility. the holy ghost was that phantom body of mankind before the fall, of which lucifer was the material form. 
           
          there was no need for RS to create ahriman as a separate spiritual being, as the polar opposite to ahura/holy ghost/lucifer. lucifer as the holy ghost was a single spiritual being before the FALL, but after, he cleaved off ahriman, the way single cell mitosis occurs. ahriman became the cosmic karma of lucifer. lucifer was the light bearer, he made light visible, ahriman was the fallen light. the event at golgatha redeemed lucifer, restored the seed for the phantom body as RS described and set the framework for to restored the holy ghost into one spiritual being again. lucifer/ahriman was formerly one single being, cleaved at the fall and now the evolution of redeemption has begun. as each preson restores their own phantom body over the course of successive incarnations, microcosmically, so does the redemption of lucifer happen macrocosmically. lucifer and ahriman do not exist infinitely over time fighting each other with Christ as the mediator. the redemption of lucifer includes the redemption of ahriman back into a single spirit. think of the many times RS said that lucifer and ahriman actually work together on certain matters.
           
          of course, neither anthroposophy nor the catholic church, needs such heresy, but there it is.
          stephen  


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        • dottie zold
          Stephen, you just are not nice I am sorry to say. I asked you about the comment made it up ...and you call it a hump without an explanation. All good Stephen,
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 20, 2008
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            Stephen, you just are not nice I am sorry to say. I asked you about the comment 'made it up'...and you call it a hump without an explanation. All good Stephen, and too bad you continue this really unfriendly behaviour. But that's all good. I guess I'll just have to put on some armor instead of trusting your conversation. All good.

             

            All good things,

            Dottie

            --- On Sun, 4/20/08, SCos <vtsophia@...> wrote:

            From: SCos <vtsophia@...>
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman
            To: "anthro- tomorrow" <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Sunday, April 20, 2008, 2:41 PM

            dottie, "I've also read that Ahriman is more powerful then Michael according to Steinr. "
             
            actually dottie, i would be careful of what you read, but RS did say that lucifer was more advanced that Christ. see THE COSMIC EGO AND THE HUMAN EGO 1912.
             
            and " I have read Rudolf Steiner speak of Ahriman as the karma of Lucifer?
             
            yes, i thought i just said that ahriman was the karmic bifurcation of lucifer. i would be happy to explain it to you if you can get over the "he made it up" hump.
            steven  
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 4:07 PM
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman

            Stephen, are you saying that Steiner 'made up' Ahriman? I am thinking I may be misunderstanding your words but maybe not. There are three mentioned in Revelations, are you aware of where they exist in that book and how they might be applied to Lucifer, Ahriman, and Sorat? Do you not hold that Ahriman is a Being due to the idea that Steiner 'made him up'? if that be your point?

             

            I have read Rudolf Steiner speak of Ahriman as the karma of Lucifer? Have you heard that? I've also read that Ahriman is more powerful then Michael according to Steiner. Have you read any of this and if so what do you make of it, if it is anything other than 'he made it up'.

             

            Good Sunday to All,

            Dottie

            --- On Sat, 4/19/08, SCos <vtsophia@...> wrote:

            From: SCos <vtsophia@...>
            Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman
            To: "anthro- tomorrow" <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Saturday, April 19, 2008, 11:47 AM

            "In Goethe's case, he called the Devil Mephistopeles, who was identified as Ahriman or Satan by the Doctor, who attributed to Goethe a certain confusion of  Lucifer and Ahriman in the Mephistopheles character, so that he became some sort of "Lucifer-Ahriman", albeit with Ahriman as the predominant character."
             
            tarjai,  your lucifer/ahriman is confusing, HUH??well goethe was no fool. so where did this ahriman spirit come from?
             
            well, we know the name comes from persian cosmology, the dualistic theology of zarathustra. the original theology, there was the duality of spenista mainyu,  later RS calls him ahura mazda  and angra mainyu, later called ahriman. the former is the good, the source of the spirits of light and ahriman was the evil one, source of the spirits of darkness. these two spirits fought each other throughout created time, thru several ages of humanity at the end of which, ahriman looses to AM. however, these two are inherently equal, uncreated and there was no quarantee that with 2 equal spirits fighting, that one really defeat the other.
             
            after the turning point in  time, the zurvanite heresy took shape. the new zoroastrians took the god of time, zurvan, and made him the father of ahura mazda and ahriman.  and since ahura was born first, he would be the last in time, also. this was carried forward in the persian theology that if you start a cycle of 12 manvantaras, if the first is good, then evil, then good, etc., both the first and last cycle is good, and evil is redeemed. end of problem
             
            goethe took the evil qualities of ahriman and also gave him some good qualities, sort of mixing ahura and ahriman into a single spirit of darkness. this is what RS objected to. but RS only objected and created his ahriman-lucifer-Christ trinity after 1909. in 1909 his lecture THE DEED OF CHRIST said that lucifer was the holy ghost. never before did RS say that nor never again. after 1909, RS protrayed this trinity as a lucifer-ahriman duality with Christ as the mediator in between.
             
            but if lucifer is the holy ghost, the 3rd person of the most hoy trinity, then the holy ghost fell with lucifer at the FALL of mankind during the lemurian age. using the persian duality of zurman with his 2 sons, is is more likely that lucifer was ahura mazda as polar oppisite to ahriman. what fell during the FALL of mankind, it was the phantom body of mankind, it fell from invisibility inot matter and visibility. the holy ghost was that phantom body of mankind before the fall, of which lucifer was the material form. 
             
            there was no need for RS to create ahriman as a separate spiritual being, as the polar opposite to ahura/holy ghost/lucifer. lucifer as the holy ghost was a single spiritual being before the FALL, but after, he cleaved off ahriman, the way single cell mitosis occurs. ahriman became the cosmic karma of lucifer. lucifer was the light bearer, he made light visible, ahriman was the fallen light. the event at golgatha redeemed lucifer, restored the seed for the phantom body as RS described and set the framework for to restored the holy ghost into one spiritual being again. lucifer/ahriman was formerly one single being, cleaved at the fall and now the evolution of redeemption has begun. as each preson restores their own phantom body over the course of successive incarnations, microcosmically, so does the redemption of lucifer happen macrocosmically. lucifer and ahriman do not exist infinitely over time fighting each other with Christ as the mediator. the redemption of lucifer includes the redemption of ahriman back into a single spirit. think of the many times RS said that lucifer and ahriman actually work together on certain matters.
             
            of course, neither anthroposophy nor the catholic church, needs such heresy, but there it is.
            stephen  


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          • Albert Sándor
            I read that lecture the other night and I was in trouble finding this statement. ... From: SCos To: anthro- tomorrow Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:41 AM
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 24, 2008
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              I read that lecture the other night and I was in trouble finding this statement.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: SCos
              Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:41 AM
              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman

              actually dottie, i would be careful of what you read, but RS did say that lucifer was more advanced that Christ. see THE COSMIC EGO AND THE HUMAN EGO 1912.
              .

            • Albert Sándor
              Nevermind, wrong lecture. I felt that something is wrong, still I posted like a fool. No wonder beacuse I am a fool. :) ... From: Albert Sándor To:
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 24, 2008
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                Nevermind, wrong lecture.  I felt that something is wrong, still I posted like a fool. No wonder beacuse I am a fool. :)
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:30 PM
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman

                I read that lecture the other night and I was in trouble finding this statement.
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: SCos
                Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:41 AM
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] on ahriman

                actually dottie, i would be careful of what you read, but RS did say that lucifer was more advanced that Christ. see THE COSMIC EGO AND THE HUMAN EGO 1912.
                .

              • elfuncle
                ... posted like a fool. No wonder beacuse I am a fool. :) No need to put yourself down -- lighten up, give us some hole-jokes or something, Fables from the
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 24, 2008
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                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Albert Sándor
                  <montek@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Nevermind, wrong lecture. I felt that something is wrong, still I
                  posted like a fool. No wonder beacuse I am a fool. :)

                  No need to put yourself down -- lighten up, give us some hole-jokes or
                  something, Fables from the Crypt.

                  The notion that Lucifer is superior to Christ sounds more like Blavatsky
                  to me, although she didn't recognize Christ at all, and she was a mean
                  Gandalf denier as well -- but she definitely thought that Lucifer was
                  morally superior to Yahve, who was the god of opposition while Lucifer
                  was the progressive one. And she definitely had a good point, read the
                  Old Testament, Yahve comes across like a real murderous bastard with
                  uncontrollable temper and jealousy, and he kind of pushed the other six
                  Elohim away to the Sun to capture Earth evolution for himself alone,
                  running the show from the Moon.

                  Anyway, it would be easier to track down quotes from the right lectures
                  if full references are given, preferably GA# or at least city and exact
                  date or original German volume title.

                  Cheers,

                  Tarjei
                • Mike Helsher
                  Mike Helsher http://www.michaelhelsher.lifesuccessconsultants.com/ http://www.thewealthguardian.com/ --- On Thu, 4/24/08, elfuncle
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 24, 2008
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                    Mike Helsher
                    http://www.michaelhelsher.lifesuccessconsultants.com/
                    http://www.thewealthguardian.com/

                    --- On Thu, 4/24/08, elfuncle <hisholiness@...> wrote:
                    From: elfuncle <hisholiness@...>
                    Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: on ahriman
                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, April 24, 2008, 7:07 AM



                    --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, Albert Sándor
                    <montek@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Nevermind, wrong lecture. I felt that something is wrong, still I
                    posted like a fool. No wonder beacuse I am a fool. :)

                    No need to put yourself down -- lighten up, give us some hole-jokes or
                    something, Fables from the Crypt.

                    The notion that Lucifer is superior to Christ sounds more like Blavatsky
                    to me, although she didn't recognize Christ at all, and she was a mean
                    Gandalf denier as well --



                    I just had a scary thought. I know that we have been weeding out the Gandalf deniers lately. But in light of the new hole Nazis, I was wondering... what if... I mean... there are actually... Dylan deniers in our midst!



                    Mike



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                  • elfuncle
                    Mike, you wrote: I just had a scary thought. I know that we have been weeding out the Gandalf deniers lately. But in light of the new hole Nazis, I was
                    Message 9 of 30 , Apr 24, 2008
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                      Mike, you wrote:

                      "I just had a scary thought. I know that we have been weeding out the Gandalf deniers lately. But in light of the new hole Nazis, I was wondering... what if... I mean... there are actually... Dylan deniers in our midst!"

                      The Gandalf deniers will meet their destiny on Judgement Day after heavy questioning by Frodo. Dylan doesn't count and he doesn't want to, but his songs do, so there are Desolation Row deniers, Rainy Day Women deniers, The Times they Are a-Changin' deniers, Tangled Up in Blue deniers, The Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest deniers and so on... And worst of all are them Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts deniers. And the denieers of those songs will have to sing them over and over and over until Gandalf is satisfied.

                      Tarjei
                    • dottie zold
                      Dear Sandor, I say you should hope to embarass yourself often! Cringe at what you write! Self reflect and meet your shadow that stays well out of sight until
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 28, 2008
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                        Dear Sandor,

                         

                        I say you should hope to embarass yourself often! Cringe at what you write! Self reflect and meet your shadow that stays well out of sight until those moment occur and you can then begin your transformation towards meeting Ahriman instead of hiding from him.

                         

                        I was thinking of my experiences lately and it seems to me that we have NO idea how clever this Ahriman is: its a constant 'check' and check mate' over so many different things going on. He has an answer for every single feeling and thought that then turns into a willing one has in this world. So much so is this great genius of a plan that he has allowed human beings to help him in his endeavor to make his own world the truth: one gets caught in this thinking feeling and willing of their lives by what other human beings have produced in their art throughout the millenium.

                         

                        There is not one corner one can turn where he is not. Not one. So when one is hurting for some offense, every thing will come to meet him to help him really fall deep into the drama, or the opposite, desensetized which then leads to abstractractions of thinking and feeling,

                        What a matrix we have going on here.

                         

                        I think that it could be said that the age when one encounters where he must take what has separated from him, thinking feeling and willing, if it has happened to one, is at 45. AT this age one is called to pull these things back together in their transformed state and must become master of them. When one does this one can see Ahriman at work in ones life and others lives. And when one sees this, one is able to separate the happenings of the lower ego from the eternities of the higher ego.

                         

                        Ooops gotta run

                         

                        All good things,

                        Dottie  



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                      • dottie zold
                        I was thinking that Ahriman has me laughing in a way because how clever is he that people think he is outside of themselves! So clever. He has insinuated
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 28, 2008
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                          I was thinking that Ahriman has me laughing in a way because how clever is he that people think he is outside of themselves! So clever. He has  insinuated himself so deeply into the marrow of our being through what has to be ennobled by us: our thinking feeling and willing. He is deeply entrenched. So much so that a good portion of the Steiner students, the Tomberg students, think too much attention is put upon Ahriman!  oh boy what a wicked web is weaved via this stance: one is caught up in their supposed humility of the hermit path that they fail to see the foil of Ahriman who has neatly surrounded them in all their religous like humility.

                          --- On Mon, 4/28/08, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                          From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman
                          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 8:34 AM

                          Dear Sandor,

                           

                          I say you should hope to embarass yourself often! Cringe at what you write! Self reflect and meet your shadow that stays well out of sight until those moment occur and you can then begin your transformation towards meeting Ahriman instead of hiding from him.

                           

                          I was thinking of my experiences lately and it seems to me that we have NO idea how clever this Ahriman is: its a constant 'check' and check mate' over so many different things going on. He has an answer for every single feeling and thought that then turns into a willing one has in this world. So much so is this great genius of a plan that he has allowed human beings to help him in his endeavor to make his own world the truth: one gets caught in this thinking feeling and willing of their lives by what other human beings have produced in their art throughout the millenium.

                           

                          There is not one corner one can turn where he is not. Not one. So when one is hurting for some offense, every thing will come to meet him to help him really fall deep into the drama, or the opposite, desensetized which then leads to abstractractions of thinking and feeling,

                          What a matrix we have going on here.

                           

                          I think that it could be said that the age when one encounters where he must take what has separated from him, thinking feeling and willing, if it has happened to one, is at 45. AT this age one is called to pull these things back together in their transformed state and must become master of them. When one does this one can see Ahriman at work in ones life and others lives. And when one sees this, one is able to separate the happenings of the lower ego from the eternities of the higher ego.

                           

                          Ooops gotta run

                           

                          All good things,

                          Dottie  



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                        • dottie zold
                          That was sent before I finished my thinking so i will continue here: So, I now have to catch my thread ...... Oh, okay, so the reason why the Meditations on
                          Message 12 of 30 , Apr 28, 2008
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                            That was sent before I finished my thinking so i will continue here:

                             

                            So, I now have to catch my thread ......

                             

                            Oh, okay, so the reason why the Meditations on the Tarot meet not only the Tomberg students but also the Steiner students and others is because it outs Ahriman and Lucifer in an imaginatory way. There is something in the human being that is trying to 'catch' himself in his thinking feeling and willing because it is an in



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                          • dottie zold
                            That was sent before I finished my thinking so i will continue here: So, I now have to catch my thread ...... Oh, okay, so the reason why the Meditations on
                            Message 13 of 30 , Apr 28, 2008
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                              That was sent before I finished my thinking so i will continue here:

                               

                              So, I now have to catch my thread ......

                               

                              Oh, okay, so the reason why the Meditations on the Tarot meet not only the Tomberg students but also the Steiner students and others is because it outs Ahriman and Lucifer in an imaginatory way. There is something in the human being that is trying to 'catch' himself in his thinking feeling and willing because it is an innate part of his nature to be free from the fetters of these two Beings.

                               

                              But how to do this is not so easy as we have so inculculated ourselves with our own baloney. We think we are doing and we are. But if we are unwilling to falter, unwilling to fail, unwilling to embaress ourselves, unable to dig really deep to see why we are doing what we are doing, in any given situation, we just continue to fool ourselves. The exercises on the Eight Fold Path found in the Guidance of Esoteric Training, are the key. Once again they cause us to meet ourselves every single day, we meet our likes and our dislikes every single day.

                               

                              Changing our behaviour, other then the ones so glaringly obvious to the outer world, family and friends, is no easy matter. We really have to cringe and keep on moving with a want to do better. But we so have to recognize and come to the self reflection that has us having the thought of 'I want to do better in this situation next time.' This is where the Philosophy of Freedom work is so incredibly important. It is important because we have an idea of freedom in ones thinking. But then we have to work at it so very very hard that it can be so time consuming if we do not meet these challenges with  humor and equinimaty.

                               

                              All good things,

                              Dottie

                               

                               

                               


                              --- On Mon, 4/28/08, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                              From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman
                              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 9:39 AM

                              I was thinking that Ahriman has me laughing in a way because how clever is he that people think he is outside of themselves! So clever. He has  insinuated himself so deeply into the marrow of our being through what has to be ennobled by us: our thinking feeling and willing. He is deeply entrenched. So much so that a good portion of the Steiner students, the Tomberg students, think too much attention is put upon Ahriman!  oh boy what a wicked web is weaved via this stance: one is caught up in their supposed humility of the hermit path that they fail to see the foil of Ahriman who has neatly surrounded them in all their religous like humility.

                              --- On Mon, 4/28/08, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                              From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman
                              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 8:34 AM

                              Dear Sandor,

                               

                              I say you should hope to embarass yourself often! Cringe at what you write! Self reflect and meet your shadow that stays well out of sight until those moment occur and you can then begin your transformation towards meeting Ahriman instead of hiding from him.

                               

                              I was thinking of my experiences lately and it seems to me that we have NO idea how clever this Ahriman is: its a constant 'check' and check mate' over so many different things going on. He has an answer for every single feeling and thought that then turns into a willing one has in this world. So much so is this great genius of a plan that he has allowed human beings to help him in his endeavor to make his own world the truth: one gets caught in this thinking feeling and willing of their lives by what other human beings have produced in their art throughout the millenium.

                               

                              There is not one corner one can turn where he is not. Not one. So when one is hurting for some offense, every thing will come to meet him to help him really fall deep into the drama, or the opposite, desensetized which then leads to abstractractions of thinking and feeling,

                              What a matrix we have going on here.

                               

                              I think that it could be said that the age when one encounters where he must take what has separated from him, thinking feeling and willing, if it has happened to one, is at 45. AT this age one is called to pull these things back together in their transformed state and must become master of them. When one does this one can see Ahriman at work in ones life and others lives. And when one sees this, one is able to separate the happenings of the lower ego from the eternities of the higher ego.

                               

                              Ooops gotta run

                               

                              All good things,

                              Dottie  



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                            • dottie zold
                              That was sent before I finished my thinking so i will continue here: So, I now have to catch my thread ...... Oh, okay, so the reason why the Meditations on
                              Message 14 of 30 , Apr 28, 2008
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                                That was sent before I finished my thinking so i will continue here:

                                 

                                So, I now have to catch my thread ......

                                 

                                Oh, okay, so the reason why the Meditations on the Tarot meet not only the Tomberg students but also the Steiner students and others is because it outs Ahriman and Lucifer in an imaginatory way. There is something in the human being that is trying to 'catch' himself in his thinking feeling and willing because it is an innate part of his nature to be free from the fetters of these two Beings.

                                 

                                But how to do this is not so easy as we have so inculculated ourselves with our own baloney. We think we are doing and we are. But if we are unwilling to falter, unwilling to fail, unwilling to embaress ourselves, unable to dig really deep to see why we are doing what we are doing, in any given situation, we just continue to fool ourselves. The exercises on the Eight Fold Path found in the Guidance of Esoteric Training, are the key. Once again they cause us to meet ourselves every single day, we meet our likes and our dislikes every single day.

                                 

                                Changing our behaviour, other then the ones so glaringly obvious to the outer world, family and friends, is no easy matter. We really have to cringe and keep on moving with a want to do better. But we so have to recognize and come to the self reflection that has us having the thought of 'I want to do better in this situation next time.' This is where the Philosophy of Freedom work is so incredibly important. It is important because we have an idea of freedom in ones thinking. But then we have to work at it so very very hard that it can be so time consuming if we do not meet these challenges with  humor and equinimaty.



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                              • dottie zold
                                I am thinking if you are not going through some great turmoil, and having to find a way to make a stand, too bad. Maybe if you are in those after karma years
                                Message 15 of 30 , Apr 28, 2008
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                                  I am thinking if you are not going through some great turmoil, and having to find a way to make a stand, too bad. Maybe if you are in those 'after karma years' its okay. But then again I don't know.

                                   

                                  I wonder almost what age Job was when the adversaries were called off: probably nine hundred and something :) oh well, I guess times have changed.

                                   

                                  All good good things,

                                  Dottie



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                                • Sándor Albert
                                  //Dottie wrote I say you should hope to embarass yourself often! Cringe at what you write! Self reflect and meet your shadow that stays well out of sight until
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Apr 28, 2008
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                                    //Dottie wrote

                                    I say you should hope to embarass yourself often! Cringe at what you
                                    write! Self reflect and meet your shadow that stays well out of sight
                                    until those moment occur and you can then begin your transformation
                                    towards meeting Ahriman instead of hiding from him.//

                                    Because I am still unversed in self embarassment, I gladly position
                                    myself to be embarrased by you or any other member of this group.
                                    Bring it on, I am not a baby.

                                    //
                                    I was thinking of my experiences lately and it seems to me that we
                                    have NO idea how clever this Ahriman is: its a constant 'check' and
                                    check mate' over so many different things going on. He has an answer
                                    for every single feeling and thought that then turns into a willing
                                    one has in this world. So much so is this great genius of a plan that
                                    he has allowed human beings to help him in his endeavor to make his
                                    own world the truth: one gets caught in this thinking feeling and
                                    willing of their lives by what other human beings have produced in
                                    their art throughout the millenium. //

                                    I am capable of authentic artistic expression. I admit I need quite a
                                    bif amount of pain to fuel it ... of course this does not mean my
                                    creations are perfect or of any importance - but they are authentic.
                                    If you mean by dead thinking using some other man's thoughts,
                                    theories ... I admit I am quite suceptible to being won over - but
                                    exactly beacuse I have been won over so many times, and by
                                    conflicting systems, I do not trust my mind too much.

                                    // Dottie wrote
                                    There is not one corner one can turn where he is not. Not one. So
                                    when one is hurting for some offense, every thing will come to meet
                                    him to help him really fall deep into the drama, or the opposite,
                                    desensetized which then leads to abstractractions of thinking and
                                    feeling,

                                    What a matrix we have going on here.
                                    //

                                    I find that I am less and less hurt by offenses, and not because of
                                    being desenseitized, but because I lean to detach my heart
                                    consciousness from my circumstancial self. I am not invlunerable
                                    though, so I dare anyone to test me. Maybe I get embarassed. :)

                                    // Dottie wrote

                                    I think that it could be said that the age when one encounters where
                                    he must take what has separated from him, thinking feeling and
                                    willing, if it has happened to one, is at 45. AT this age one is
                                    called to pull these things back together in their transformed state
                                    and must become master of them. When one does this one can see
                                    Ahriman at work in ones life and others lives. And when one sees
                                    this, one is able to separate the happenings of the lower ego from
                                    the eternities of the higher ego.

                                    // So this is why I feel so old, than. Or I have a premature
                                    experience of what is yet to come.
                                  • dottie zold
                                    I am thinking of the saying I am in this world but not of it and how that relates to finding oneself in the temporal/transitory versus the eternities of a
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                      I am thinking of the saying 'I am in this world but not of it' and how that relates to finding oneself in the temporal/transitory versus the eternities of a thing. Yet if we consider this without the thinking heart we can find ourselves in the abstractions of things. So how does one fully enter into their body and have the spirit walk it in all ways? Is not this the question of Easter?

                                       

                                      Here we can judge any other religion or a people for not entering into or coming to understand the Christ principle. And we can feel sorry for this one and that. However if we our very own selves do not find a way to walk this body, to ever be seeking to embody the Christ principles how much more enlightened are we for having the knowlegde that Christ did walk the Earth, that He did come to reverse the Fall, to show man the way towards developing the Ego?

                                       

                                      Sure, we can talk and be humble and gather our selves together like little nice sheep who all find one another and support one another in our efforts etc. But whoa is to them that have the capacity to rise to the inklings of the Spirit Self instreaming from the Sixth Epoch and do not. For it is they that have the capacity to lead man by example that can truly make a difference in this world at this time.

                                       

                                      All good things,

                                      Dottie



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                                    • dottie zold
                                      What I am wanting to say is not that it is whoa because someone else is going to be given us a whoopin rather it is our own selves that is going to give a
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                        What I am wanting to say is not that it is whoa because someone else is going to be given us a whoopin rather it is our own selves that is going to give a 'whatfor' to what we had hoped to accomplish here on earth during this period of time.

                                         

                                        All good things,

                                        Dottie

                                        --- On Tue, 4/29/08, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                                        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] on ahriman
                                        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 8:25 AM

                                        I am thinking of the saying 'I am in this world but not of it' and how that relates to finding oneself in the temporal/transitory versus the eternities of a thing. Yet if we consider this without the thinking heart we can find ourselves in the abstractions of things. So how does one fully enter into their body and have the spirit walk it in all ways? Is not this the question of Easter?

                                         

                                        Here we can judge any other religion or a people for not entering into or coming to understand the Christ principle. And we can feel sorry for this one and that. However if we our very own selves do not find a way to walk this body, to ever be seeking to embody the Christ principles how much more enlightened are we for having the knowlegde that Christ did walk the Earth, that He did come to reverse the Fall, to show man the way towards developing the Ego?

                                         

                                        Sure, we can talk and be humble and gather our selves together like little nice sheep who all find one another and support one another in our efforts etc. But whoa is to them that have the capacity to rise to the inklings of the Spirit Self instreaming from the Sixth Epoch and do not. For it is they that have the capacity to lead man by example that can truly make a difference in this world at this time.

                                         

                                        All good things,

                                        Dottie



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                                      • dottie zold
                                        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080429/ap_on_el_pr/obama_pastor Well, I like Reverend Wright. I think we need a little of him every day. I am glad he is out in
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                          http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080429/ap_on_el_pr/obama_pastor

                                           

                                          Well, I like Reverend Wright. I think we need a little of him every day. I am glad he is out in the spotlight and I think he highlights also Obama's lack of moral courage to meet this issue fairly straight on: to hell with politics come high or hell water.

                                           

                                          Obama woulda earned my highest respects if he had dealt with this differently. I woulda thought 'now here's a man that's not going to throw his friend into the pit for speaking a truth that is understood in the black community. But he didnt'. But I believe his wife woulda done it differently. That's why she woulda had my vote, I trust her to speak her mind clearly on these types of issues. Unfortunately now married to Obama she is compromised in this situation.

                                           

                                          I can see however that Obama would be offended that his Pastor/friend would continued to speak out even though it could bring more heat to his campaign and ruin its chances of truly being a clear front runner. I get that. But when you put God first you and you have integrity, you can trust your thoughts on this issue will be heard. He speaks about bridging the gap but he through his own Reverend over the wall.

                                           

                                          All good things,

                                          Dottie



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                                        • elfuncle
                                          What I find interesting is the reactions of the media -- I m watching CNN, I don t get Fox or the others -- I listen to the chosen guests of Larry King, and
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                            What I find interesting is the reactions of the media -- I'm watching CNN, I don't get Fox or the others -- I listen to the chosen guests of Larry King, and they keep saying that Wright's utterances are so terrible and despicable and so on -- but are they really? In fact, it's not about race like they claim, it's about grassrot Afro-American perspective on history and politics, which is very reminiscent of A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn.

                                            They call it anti-Semitic to say that Israel is a terrorist state. But that's a political statement, not a racial one, aimed at Zionist hawks and a military out of control, not Jews. And they find it so shocking to hear Wright echo Malcolm X when he says that with 9-11, the chickens come home to roost. How awful, how unpatriotic and unamerican. But look at history -- it began with the 1953 CIA coup in Iran, and even before that with the mischief of the British Empire in the Middle East. And there's "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins to tell the rest of the story, so the chickens did indeed come home to roost with 9-11.

                                            It's the utter ruthless brutality of American history highlighted by Wright that the media are denying, and the present brutality of US foreign policy so well analyzed and explained by Noam Chomsky and others. In my opinion, Jeremiah Wright has been too supportive of Louis Farakhan, although it's understandable because they're both on the south side of Chicago as black spiritual leaders, but Farakhan is outrageously racist and divisive and hateful. But Wright's Farachan-apology is a very, very small piece of his message, although he seems to be playing it to get back at Obama for opposing him. The media, however, are quoting Wright out of context to make him look racist, by playing the same clips over and over again -- pretty much the same way the hole dwellers are playing the Doctor.

                                            And Obama -- of course he has to denounce Wright and play along with the media hype, otherwise he wouldn't have a shot at the White House. He needs the corporate support and the Pentagon support and all that. And he will continue powerplay in the Middle East, business as usual what US foreign policy is concerned with a few twists that make him one little notch better than his two competitors. And he's the least scary of the three.  Hillary worries me, spooks me, with her obvious powerthirst and ambition. McCain has a dark and sinister side, say those who know him, that we have hardly seen. And everybody says over and over and over that he's such a hero, has rendered such wonderful and heroic service to his country -- for what? Bombing Vietnamese civilians! He was shot down and captured on his 23rd killing-and-maiming bombing mission in North Vietnam. Why was this such a wonderful service to the United States? How has the US benefited from that? The US was condemned by the world and booted out of that country. If he earned his heroic status in captivity, there are plenty of innocent folks at Guantanamo who certainly qualify as heroes.

                                            Just some thoughts,

                                            Tarjei

                                          • dottie zold
                                            Tarjei, one has to have ambition and drive to fufil their destiny. One has to have and take initiative to accomplish their tasks. Hillary, as a woman, is
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                              Tarjei, one has to have ambition and drive to fufil their destiny. One has to have and take initiative to accomplish their tasks. Hillary, as a woman, is judged for this. She's smart, she's quick, she's tight, and she aint perfect. But neither is anyone else. I am not trying to sell you on Hillary but I appreciate a woman with a sword who doesn't let the men speak for her heart. She speaks it, ugly or pretty, she speaks it.

                                               

                                              He is a back board man. He's marshmellow for what we need at this time. We need a strong leader to lead in this moment not just call for change, but one who, when they roll up their sleeve it aint for no photo op.

                                               

                                              All good things,

                                              Dottie

                                               

                                              p.s. If he truly was about change, real change, he would not have thrown his pastor over. He woulda stood with moral courage, just as Bill Clinton failed to make a stand for Lani Davis, showed no moral courage, so did Obama make the same mistake.

                                              --- On Tue, 4/29/08, elfuncle <hisholiness@...> wrote:

                                              From: elfuncle <hisholiness@...>
                                              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Reverend
                                              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 5:53 PM

                                              What I find interesting is the reactions of the media -- I'm watching CNN, I don't get Fox or the others -- I listen to the chosen guests of Larry King, and they keep saying that Wright's utterances are so terrible and despicable and so on -- but are they really? In fact, it's not about race like they claim, it's about grassrot Afro-American perspective on history and politics, which is very reminiscent of A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn.

                                              They call it anti-Semitic to say that Israel is a terrorist state. But that's a political statement, not a racial one, aimed at Zionist hawks and a military out of control, not Jews. And they find it so shocking to hear Wright echo Malcolm X when he says that with 9-11, the chickens come home to roost. How awful, how unpatriotic and unamerican. But look at history -- it began with the 1953 CIA coup in Iran, and even before that with the mischief of the British Empire in the Middle East. And there's "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins to tell the rest of the story, so the chickens did indeed come home to roost with 9-11.

                                              It's the utter ruthless brutality of American history highlighted by Wright that the media are denying, and the present brutality of US foreign policy so well analyzed and explained by Noam Chomsky and others. In my opinion, Jeremiah Wright has been too supportive of Louis Farakhan, although it's understandable because they're both on the south side of Chicago as black spiritual leaders, but Farakhan is outrageously racist and divisive and hateful. But Wright's Farachan-apology is a very, very small piece of his message, although he seems to be playing it to get back at Obama for opposing him. The media, however, are quoting Wright out of context to make him look racist, by playing the same clips over and over again -- pretty much the same way the hole dwellers are playing the Doctor.

                                              And Obama -- of course he has to denounce Wright and play along with the media hype, otherwise he wouldn't have a shot at the White House. He needs the corporate support and the Pentagon support and all that. And he will continue powerplay in the Middle East, business as usual what US foreign policy is concerned with a few twists that make him one little notch better than his two competitors. And he's the least scary of the three.  Hillary worries me, spooks me, with her obvious powerthirst and ambition. McCain has a dark and sinister side, say those who know him, that we have hardly seen. And everybody says over and over and over that he's such a hero, has rendered such wonderful and heroic service to his country -- for what? Bombing Vietnamese civilians! He was shot down and captured on his 23rd killing-and-maiming bombing mission in North Vietnam. Why was this such a wonderful service to the United States? How has the US benefited from that? The US was condemned by the world and booted out of that country. If he earned his heroic status in captivity, there are plenty of innocent folks at Guantanamo who certainly qualify as heroes.

                                              Just some thoughts,

                                              Tarjei



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                                            • elfuncle
                                              Dottie, you wrote: One has to have and take initiative to accomplish their tasks. Hillary, as a woman, is judged for this. My concern about Hillary s
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Apr 30, 2008
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                                                Dottie, you wrote:

                                                "One has to have and take initiative to accomplish their tasks.
                                                Hillary, as a woman, is judged for this."

                                                My concern about Hillary's powerthirst has nothing to do with her
                                                gender. I would have said exactly the same thing if she was a man. If
                                                others are judging Hillary on the basis of her gender, that's
                                                completely beside the point.

                                                Jeremiah Wright has the spotlight today, and it looks like he's
                                                behaving like an ass. And hearing Obama's reaction, it seems Wright is
                                                indeed acting like an ass. (I'm not talking about his views and
                                                opinions specifically, but his play for the media.)

                                                Tarjei
                                              • dottie zold
                                                Well, I think its genious of the angelic world to have this spotlight today with Reverent Wright. That s what I think. He s clearly highlighting the huge rift
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Apr 30, 2008
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                                                  Well, I think its genious of the angelic world to have this spotlight today with Reverent Wright. That's what I think. He's clearly highlighting the huge rift within the fabric of America that looks like its not getting any better. He's outing Ahriman in my view. He's using his time wisely. He's not doing this for himself rather he is speaking as a whole what is living within the black community as a deep mistrust of white America.

                                                  He didn't ask to be put in that spotlight but he has now chosen not to let the opportunity that is knocking on the door to be pushed aside. I think he thought this out very deeply. I do not think it something he frivously chose to do. I think he weighed the consequences of his actions against what was not said in the suppposed 'race' speech offering by Obama. And the black communities deeper issue facing them won out. Clearly.

                                                  The Pastors here are all upset because in their words 'he is ruining the best chance to get a black man in the Presidency. Well screw that. It ain't about whether a black man is in office its about people with integrity to work to uplifting the whole without any back room board games going on. And one that has a backbone to deal with other issues as well. He aint no Jack Kennedy that is for sure. No matter the faults of Bobby and Jack their stance on this issue moved this country foward to where it needed to be.

                                                  There are strong adversarial forces here trying to keep the rich on top which requires to keep others down. Mostly it is about education. It is disgusting to see what is being produced out of poverty and no educational opportunities that take place in the inner cities. One has got to come to some understanding of something more than 'if I can do they can do it'. It's despicable Tarjei. Absolutely despicable.

                                                  I am riding down the streets and all I see are young black kids from the system, foster care system on the street. Disgusting. Dispicable. And we're over in other countries trying to 'set them straight' when in our own backyard we can not spend decent money on education to change the status of the inner cities around? Disgusting. Billions of dollars on a war and no hospitals in the inner cities worth the paper their written on? Disgusting. While we're out their chasing to do 'God's work' in other countries we fail to see what we can be doing here at home, in this country.

                                                  Obama had a clear opportunity to bridge and soothe Rev. Wright's soul and those of others. But he chose to cut and run. Not surprised. And now you watch the people of color having to settle for less because 'he just couldn't say the truth without getting elected'. Well *&%^$# that.

                                                  Hillary has kept her self small in the Senate. She's kept her nose to the grindstone and has garnered the respect of the Republicans and the Democrats for not showboating herself all over the place. She has worked real hard. She has clearly crossed the aisle to finding real working compromises that many on the left don't like, well so what. She's finding the balance and I can appreciate that. When you say 'powerthirst' I just don't understand what you are speaking of. She has since a child wanted to be of service. It has taken the political route. She married a man who had similar longings as she. And together they climbed the ladder of their longings to make a difference, to have a life that has some meaning, has something they have chosen to offer the world out of their own strivings and thinkings and feelings. And they're both really really smart. I mean it wasn't given to them and if anything they had to fight like hell to keep moving into the arena
                                                  of service. And they are regular everyday people who do care about those that others have written off in a very big way.

                                                  My 2cents,
                                                  d


                                                  --- On Wed, 4/30/08, elfuncle <hisholiness@...> wrote:

                                                  > From: elfuncle <hisholiness@...>
                                                  > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Reverend
                                                  > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2008, 7:06 AM
                                                  > Dottie, you wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > "One has to have and take initiative to accomplish
                                                  > their tasks.
                                                  > Hillary, as a woman, is judged for this."
                                                  >
                                                  > My concern about Hillary's powerthirst has nothing to
                                                  > do with her
                                                  > gender. I would have said exactly the same thing if she was
                                                  > a man. If
                                                  > others are judging Hillary on the basis of her gender,
                                                  > that's
                                                  > completely beside the point.
                                                  >
                                                  > Jeremiah Wright has the spotlight today, and it looks like
                                                  > he's
                                                  > behaving like an ass. And hearing Obama's reaction, it
                                                  > seems Wright is
                                                  > indeed acting like an ass. (I'm not talking about his
                                                  > views and
                                                  > opinions specifically, but his play for the media.)
                                                  >
                                                  > Tarjei
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  > (Yahoo! ID required)
                                                  >
                                                  > mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >

                                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                                • elfuncle
                                                  Well, if Rev. Wright hadn t basically called Hillary a spoiled racist bitch, I would have recommended for you to suggest a Hillary-Jeremiah ticket. Now
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Apr 30, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Well, if Rev. Wright hadn't basically called Hillary a spoiled racist
                                                    bitch, I would have recommended for you to suggest a Hillary-Jeremiah
                                                    ticket. Now wouldn't that be a sight :)

                                                    Tarjei


                                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                                                    <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Well, I think its genious of the angelic world to have this
                                                    spotlight today with Reverent Wright. That's what I think. He's
                                                    clearly highlighting the huge rift within the fabric of America that
                                                    looks like its not getting any better. He's outing Ahriman in my view.
                                                    He's using his time wisely. He's not doing this for himself rather he
                                                    is speaking as a whole what is living within the black community as a
                                                    deep mistrust of white America.
                                                    >
                                                    > He didn't ask to be put in that spotlight but he has now chosen not
                                                    to let the opportunity that is knocking on the door to be pushed
                                                    aside. I think he thought this out very deeply. I do not think it
                                                    something he frivously chose to do. I think he weighed the
                                                    consequences of his actions against what was not said in the suppposed
                                                    'race' speech offering by Obama. And the black communities deeper
                                                    issue facing them won out. Clearly.
                                                    >
                                                    > The Pastors here are all upset because in their words 'he is ruining
                                                    the best chance to get a black man in the Presidency. Well screw that.
                                                    It ain't about whether a black man is in office its about people with
                                                    integrity to work to uplifting the whole without any back room board
                                                    games going on. And one that has a backbone to deal with other issues
                                                    as well. He aint no Jack Kennedy that is for sure. No matter the
                                                    faults of Bobby and Jack their stance on this issue moved this country
                                                    foward to where it needed to be.
                                                    >
                                                    > There are strong adversarial forces here trying to keep the rich on
                                                    top which requires to keep others down. Mostly it is about education.
                                                    It is disgusting to see what is being produced out of poverty and no
                                                    educational opportunities that take place in the inner cities. One has
                                                    got to come to some understanding of something more than 'if I can do
                                                    they can do it'. It's despicable Tarjei. Absolutely despicable.
                                                    >
                                                    > I am riding down the streets and all I see are young black kids from
                                                    the system, foster care system on the street. Disgusting. Dispicable.
                                                    And we're over in other countries trying to 'set them straight' when
                                                    in our own backyard we can not spend decent money on education to
                                                    change the status of the inner cities around? Disgusting. Billions of
                                                    dollars on a war and no hospitals in the inner cities worth the paper
                                                    their written on? Disgusting. While we're out their chasing to do
                                                    'God's work' in other countries we fail to see what we can be doing
                                                    here at home, in this country.
                                                    >
                                                    > Obama had a clear opportunity to bridge and soothe Rev. Wright's
                                                    soul and those of others. But he chose to cut and run. Not surprised.
                                                    And now you watch the people of color having to settle for less
                                                    because 'he just couldn't say the truth without getting elected'. Well
                                                    *&%^$# that.
                                                    >
                                                    > Hillary has kept her self small in the Senate. She's kept her nose
                                                    to the grindstone and has garnered the respect of the Republicans and
                                                    the Democrats for not showboating herself all over the place. She has
                                                    worked real hard. She has clearly crossed the aisle to finding real
                                                    working compromises that many on the left don't like, well so what.
                                                    She's finding the balance and I can appreciate that. When you say
                                                    'powerthirst' I just don't understand what you are speaking of. She
                                                    has since a child wanted to be of service. It has taken the political
                                                    route. She married a man who had similar longings as she. And together
                                                    they climbed the ladder of their longings to make a difference, to
                                                    have a life that has some meaning, has something they have chosen to
                                                    offer the world out of their own strivings and thinkings and feelings.
                                                    And they're both really really smart. I mean it wasn't given to them
                                                    and if anything they had to fight like hell to keep moving into the arena
                                                    > of service. And they are regular everyday people who do care about
                                                    those that others have written off in a very big way.
                                                    >
                                                    > My 2cents,
                                                    > d
                                                  • dottie zold
                                                    Well, he s welcome to his opinion of her and I still can deeply appreciate what he is saying: the messenger is not always going to be perfect, as he is just a
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Apr 30, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Well, he's welcome to his opinion of her and I still can deeply appreciate what he is saying: the messenger is not always going to be perfect, as he is just a human being striving however.

                                                      I have said many times if Obama's wife was running she'd have my vote. That's moral courage walking straight at ya.

                                                      :)
                                                      d


                                                      --- On Wed, 4/30/08, elfuncle <hisholiness@...> wrote:

                                                      > From: elfuncle <hisholiness@...>
                                                      > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Reverend
                                                      > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2008, 8:18 AM
                                                      > Well, if Rev. Wright hadn't basically called Hillary a
                                                      > spoiled racist
                                                      > bitch, I would have recommended for you to suggest a
                                                      > Hillary-Jeremiah
                                                      > ticket. Now wouldn't that be a sight :)
                                                      >
                                                      > Tarjei
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                                                      > <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Well, I think its genious of the angelic world to have
                                                      > this
                                                      > spotlight today with Reverent Wright. That's what I
                                                      > think. He's
                                                      > clearly highlighting the huge rift within the fabric of
                                                      > America that
                                                      > looks like its not getting any better. He's outing
                                                      > Ahriman in my view.
                                                      > He's using his time wisely. He's not doing this for
                                                      > himself rather he
                                                      > is speaking as a whole what is living within the black
                                                      > community as a
                                                      > deep mistrust of white America.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > He didn't ask to be put in that spotlight but he
                                                      > has now chosen not
                                                      > to let the opportunity that is knocking on the door to be
                                                      > pushed
                                                      > aside. I think he thought this out very deeply. I do not
                                                      > think it
                                                      > something he frivously chose to do. I think he weighed the
                                                      > consequences of his actions against what was not said in
                                                      > the suppposed
                                                      > 'race' speech offering by Obama. And the black
                                                      > communities deeper
                                                      > issue facing them won out. Clearly.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The Pastors here are all upset because in their words
                                                      > 'he is ruining
                                                      > the best chance to get a black man in the Presidency. Well
                                                      > screw that.
                                                      > It ain't about whether a black man is in office its
                                                      > about people with
                                                      > integrity to work to uplifting the whole without any back
                                                      > room board
                                                      > games going on. And one that has a backbone to deal with
                                                      > other issues
                                                      > as well. He aint no Jack Kennedy that is for sure. No
                                                      > matter the
                                                      > faults of Bobby and Jack their stance on this issue moved
                                                      > this country
                                                      > foward to where it needed to be.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > There are strong adversarial forces here trying to
                                                      > keep the rich on
                                                      > top which requires to keep others down. Mostly it is about
                                                      > education.
                                                      > It is disgusting to see what is being produced out of
                                                      > poverty and no
                                                      > educational opportunities that take place in the inner
                                                      > cities. One has
                                                      > got to come to some understanding of something more than
                                                      > 'if I can do
                                                      > they can do it'. It's despicable Tarjei. Absolutely
                                                      > despicable.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I am riding down the streets and all I see are young
                                                      > black kids from
                                                      > the system, foster care system on the street. Disgusting.
                                                      > Dispicable.
                                                      > And we're over in other countries trying to 'set
                                                      > them straight' when
                                                      > in our own backyard we can not spend decent money on
                                                      > education to
                                                      > change the status of the inner cities around? Disgusting.
                                                      > Billions of
                                                      > dollars on a war and no hospitals in the inner cities worth
                                                      > the paper
                                                      > their written on? Disgusting. While we're out their
                                                      > chasing to do
                                                      > 'God's work' in other countries we fail to see
                                                      > what we can be doing
                                                      > here at home, in this country.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Obama had a clear opportunity to bridge and soothe
                                                      > Rev. Wright's
                                                      > soul and those of others. But he chose to cut and run. Not
                                                      > surprised.
                                                      > And now you watch the people of color having to settle for
                                                      > less
                                                      > because 'he just couldn't say the truth without
                                                      > getting elected'. Well
                                                      > *&%^$# that.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hillary has kept her self small in the Senate.
                                                      > She's kept her nose
                                                      > to the grindstone and has garnered the respect of the
                                                      > Republicans and
                                                      > the Democrats for not showboating herself all over the
                                                      > place. She has
                                                      > worked real hard. She has clearly crossed the aisle to
                                                      > finding real
                                                      > working compromises that many on the left don't like,
                                                      > well so what.
                                                      > She's finding the balance and I can appreciate that.
                                                      > When you say
                                                      > 'powerthirst' I just don't understand what you
                                                      > are speaking of. She
                                                      > has since a child wanted to be of service. It has taken the
                                                      > political
                                                      > route. She married a man who had similar longings as she.
                                                      > And together
                                                      > they climbed the ladder of their longings to make a
                                                      > difference, to
                                                      > have a life that has some meaning, has something they have
                                                      > chosen to
                                                      > offer the world out of their own strivings and thinkings
                                                      > and feelings.
                                                      > And they're both really really smart. I mean it
                                                      > wasn't given to them
                                                      > and if anything they had to fight like hell to keep moving
                                                      > into the arena
                                                      > > of service. And they are regular everyday people who
                                                      > do care about
                                                      > those that others have written off in a very big way.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > My 2cents,
                                                      > > d
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      > (Yahoo! ID required)
                                                      >
                                                      > mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >

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                                                    • dottie zold
                                                      I think this article addresses what my thoughts are on regarding what Reverend Wright is trying to get across in his best way that he can personally. We never
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , May 1, 2008
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        I think this article addresses what my thoughts are on regarding what Reverend Wright is trying to get across in his best way that he can personally. We never know who will be the messenger but the message must still come forth at its given time.

                                                        There is a great mistrust within the black community and rightfully so. I do wish that Obama cared more about building the bridges between what Reverend Wright and a large portion of the black community believe instead of running for President. That position, if he had taken it, would have gotten my vote. I have to remember that he too is being challenged to see what stand he will take for the ongoing evolution of our consciousness.

                                                        http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-oe-brooks1-2008may01,1,7050453.column

                                                        All good things,
                                                        Dottie


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                                                      • elfuncle
                                                        Dottie, you shared: http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-oe-brooks1-2008may01,1,7050453.column This is the interesting part: With a campaign message
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , May 1, 2008
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Dottie, you shared:
                                                          http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-oe-brooks1-2008may01,1,7050453.column

                                                          This is the interesting part:

                                                          "With a campaign message emphasizing unity and hope, the last thing
                                                          Obama needs is his former pastor running around espousing views most
                                                          other Americans find offensive and deluded, such as the conviction
                                                          that the U.S. government started the HIV/AIDS epidemic, or the
                                                          suggestion that U.S. foreign policy is little different from terrorism."

                                                          What's interesting is that they keep throwing two particular
                                                          statements, or claims, into one and the same basket. This is being
                                                          done repeatedly in all the media, as if they're trying to ridicule the
                                                          last statement by gluing it together with the first. Of course there
                                                          may be conspiracists among us who think of HIV/AIDS as a CIA plot
                                                          against Afro-Americans -- the Farakhanian anthro-babblers who blame
                                                          all such things on Jews -- but for the purpose of informed reasoning
                                                          and common sense, the first statement is false while the second is
                                                          absolutely true: US foreign policy is indeed state terrorism par
                                                          excellance. It is not experienced as such by the Europeans, nor by
                                                          China or India or Japan or even Russia, because these are the allies
                                                          seated around the table of the rich and the powerful. But for other
                                                          parts of the world, Latin America and the Middle East in particular,
                                                          the US has always played the role of a bully and a terrorist. John
                                                          Perkin's book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" will testify to
                                                          that, plus analyses by Robert Fisk and Noam Chomsky and many many others."

                                                          So this is a good way to ridicule any such critique of American
                                                          politics and history, by lumping it together with the idea that
                                                          HIV/AIDS was intentionally let loose by the US govt on its own people,
                                                          (as if the privileged rich should somehow be immune from catching the
                                                          virus).

                                                          Well, I'm not going to add any more political comments what the
                                                          election campaign is concerned. I like Barack, and Michele too btw, I
                                                          don't like Hillary. I used to kind of like Bill, but I don't like her.
                                                          Their politics are so similar that all it boils down to is who do you
                                                          like or not like, end of story.

                                                          Cheers,

                                                          Tarjei
                                                        • robin wolfe
                                                          Dear Tarjei, I am really glad Wright is around to squawk as much as he can and I hope people actually hear him. I was working on the floor below where they
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , May 1, 2008
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Dear Tarjei,

                                                            I am really glad Wright is around to squawk as much as he can and I hope people actually hear him.
                                                             
                                                            I was working on the floor below where they isolated the Aids virus in 1984 at the National Cancer Institute. I walked through the labs on the sixth floor where they had the hoods for the culture medium they where growing the virus in.
                                                             
                                                            I am not black, however I have certainly experienced racial prejudice myself. The issue for the study you are referring to was feeding on ignorance. Education is a great divider. Sure it is more difficult for someone who does not have alot of money to get educuation, but properly motivated one can learn and do anything. I certainly didn't have familial support to go to college, but I did anyhow.
                                                             
                                                            I don't like Hillary either. I do like Obama, but I am afraid he won't win against Hillary. If she gets in I fear for this country in a big way.
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            Blessings,
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            Robin   
                                                            elfuncle <hisholiness@...> wrote:
                                                            Dottie, you shared:
                                                            http://www.latimes. com/news/ columnists/ la-oe-brooks1- 2008may01, 1,7050453. column

                                                            This is the interesting part:

                                                            "With a campaign message emphasizing unity and hope, the last thing
                                                            Obama needs is his former pastor running around espousing views most
                                                            other Americans find offensive and deluded, such as the conviction
                                                            that the U.S. government started the HIV/AIDS epidemic, or the
                                                            suggestion that U.S. foreign policy is little different from terrorism."

                                                            What's interesting is that they keep throwing two particular
                                                            statements, or claims, into one and the same basket. This is being
                                                            done repeatedly in all the media, as if they're trying to ridicule the
                                                            last statement by gluing it together with the first. Of course there
                                                            may be conspiracists among us who think of HIV/AIDS as a CIA plot
                                                            against Afro-Americans -- the Farakhanian anthro-babblers who blame
                                                            all such things on Jews -- but for the purpose of informed reasoning
                                                            and common sense, the first statement is false while the second is
                                                            absolutely true: US foreign policy is indeed state terrorism par
                                                            excellance. It is not experienced as such by the Europeans, nor by
                                                            China or India or Japan or even Russia, because these are the allies
                                                            seated around the table of the rich and the powerful. But for other
                                                            parts of the world, Latin America and the Middle East in particular,
                                                            the US has always played the role of a bully and a terrorist. John
                                                            Perkin's book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" will testify to
                                                            that, plus analyses by Robert Fisk and Noam Chomsky and many many others."

                                                            So this is a good way to ridicule any such critique of American
                                                            politics and history, by lumping it together with the idea that
                                                            HIV/AIDS was intentionally let loose by the US govt on its own people,
                                                            (as if the privileged rich should somehow be immune from catching the
                                                            virus).

                                                            Well, I'm not going to add any more political comments what the
                                                            election campaign is concerned. I like Barack, and Michele too btw, I
                                                            don't like Hillary. I used to kind of like Bill, but I don't like her.
                                                            Their politics are so similar that all it boils down to is who do you
                                                            like or not like, end of story.

                                                            Cheers,

                                                            Tarjei




                                                            Robin


                                                            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                                                          • elfuncle
                                                            ... hope people actually hear him. I agree, especially in the face of all the insiduous propaganda that sneaks into every conceivable kind of sentimental
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , May 2, 2008
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, robin wolfe
                                                              <rwsherbs@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Dear Tarjei,
                                                              >
                                                              > I am really glad Wright is around to squawk as much as he can and I
                                                              hope people actually hear him.

                                                              I agree, especially in the face of all the insiduous propaganda that
                                                              sneaks into every conceivable kind of sentimental humanitarianism.
                                                              There's this talk show we get with ex-Marine Montel Williams, and he's
                                                              got all these very nice women on his show, who are writing sweet
                                                              letters to the troops to support them. And this type of stuff is very
                                                              comforting and meaningful to those soldiers who are in mortal danger
                                                              all the time, we all know that. And they keep saying it's not a
                                                              political statement, only support, being supportive.

                                                              This is such a lie, because the political statement is being made very
                                                              explicitly. The letters are thank you letters. It's thank you for
                                                              keeping us safe, thank you for making sure we have our freedom at
                                                              home, and even thank you for making sure we are a united country!

                                                              Isn't that political? It's about oil, so the thank you could have been
                                                              say, thank you for trying, unsuccessfully so far, to keep the prices
                                                              down at the pump, at an astronomical cost to us taxpayers, an
                                                              unbelievable waste of lives, and untold suffering. But it has nothing
                                                              whatsoever to do with national security or terrorism or keeping
                                                              freedom or keeping the country united! They were saying the same thing
                                                              about Vietnam! Has anybody in America lost their freedom or become
                                                              less safe because the Vietnam war was lost? Is the US a less united
                                                              country because of that?

                                                              And this is the type of propaganda that's most common, when they say
                                                              it's not about politics but about supporting the troops, when it's so
                                                              humanitarian and loving and all that. But the best way to support the
                                                              troops is to take them out of their uniforms immediately and leave the
                                                              control of the Middle East to the people who live there. If they stop
                                                              messing with the Arabs, the most fanatical among them will stop
                                                              messing with the West.

                                                              Tarjei
                                                            • elfuncle
                                                              ... http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/america.html America you don re really want to go to
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , May 3, 2008
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                I wrote:

                                                                > This is such a lie, because the political statement is being made very
                                                                > explicitly. The letters are thank you letters. It's thank you for
                                                                > keeping us safe, thank you for making sure we have our freedom at
                                                                > home, and even thank you for making sure we are a united country!
                                                                >
                                                                > Isn't that political? It's about oil, so the thank you could have been
                                                                > say, thank you for trying, unsuccessfully so far, to keep the prices
                                                                > down at the pump, at an astronomical cost to us taxpayers, an
                                                                > unbelievable waste of lives, and untold suffering. But it has nothing
                                                                > whatsoever to do with national security or terrorism or keeping
                                                                > freedom or keeping the country united! They were saying the same thing
                                                                > about Vietnam! Has anybody in America lost their freedom or become
                                                                > less safe because the Vietnam war was lost? Is the US a less united
                                                                > country because of that?


                                                                http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/america.html 

                                                                America you don're really want to go to war.
                                                                America it's them bad Russians.
                                                                Them Russians them Russians and them Chinamen. And them Russians.
                                                                The Russia wants to eat us alive. The Russia's power mad. She wants to take
                                                                our cars from out our garages.
                                                                Her wants to grab Chicago. Her needs a Red Reader's Digest. her wants our
                                                                auto plants in Siberia. Him big bureaucracy running our fillingstations.

                                                                (From "Anerica" by Allen Ginsberg)

                                                                T
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