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Anthroposophical Guidelines – Anthroposophical Intermezzo VIII

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  • Simone
    Michael s Task in the Sphere of Ahriman When man looks back upon his evolution and the special attributes which brought him to the spiritual vision which his
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 5 9:27 AM
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                                                                                                            Michael's Task in the Sphere of Ahriman

      When man looks back upon his evolution and the special attributes which brought him to the spiritual vision which his spiritual life has taken on during the past five hundred years, he must, even with normal consciousness, at least recognize that since these five hundred years he has stood at an important turning-point in the earthly evolution of humanity.

      In the previous consideration, I pointed to this important turning-point from one point of view – the observation of evolution in antiquity. One sees how the soul-force in man developed to the point where it is now active as the force of intelligence.

      Dead, abstract thoughts now appear in the field of human consciousness. These thoughts are bound to man's physical body, and he must recognize that they are of his own making.

      In antiquity man saw divine-spiritual beings when directing his vision to where his own thoughts originated. He found his whole being, down to the physical body, bound to these beings; he had to recognize himself as their creation - but as such creation not only recognize his being, but also his deeds. Man had no will of his own. What he did was the manifestation of divine will.

      In stages, as has been described, he has come to have his own will, beginning approximately five hundred years ago.

      But the last stage is far more different from all the others than they are amongst themselves.

      In that thoughts pass over to the physical body, they lose life. They become dead; spiritually dead structures. Previously, as they belonged to man, they were simultaneously organs of the divine-spiritual beings to whom man belonged. They willed in man. And therefore through them man felt himself united with the spiritual world.

      With dead thoughts he feels himself detached from the spiritual world. He feels himself completely displaced to the physical world.

      He is thus displaced to the sphere of ahrimanic spirituality. This has no strong power in the areas in which the beings of the higher hierarchies keep man in their sphere, in which they either act in man themselves, as in antiquity or, as later, through their ensouled or living reflection. As long as supersensible beings acted in human affairs, that is until the fifteenth century, the ahrimanic powers had only a weakly suggestive power within human evolution.

      The Persian worldview did not contradict this when describing Ahriman's work. For that worldview did not imply Ahriman working within human soul-evolution, but in one directly bordering on the human soul-world. Ahriman's machinations may have run over from a neighboring spirit-world into the human soul-world, but did not directly intervene.

      Direct intervention only became possible in the period that began approximately five-hundred years ago.

      Thus man stands at the end of an evolutionary stream in which his being, derived from such a divine-spirituality, finally dies out, as such, in his abstract intelligence.

      Man has not remained in the divine-spiritual spheres which constitute his origin.

      What began five-hundred years ago for human consciousness had already taken place to a larger extent for his whole being when the Mystery of Golgotha took place on earth. Imperceptibly for the consciousness of most people, human evolution had gradually slipped out of a world in which Ahriman had little power into one in which he had much. This slipping into a different world-stratum reached its completion in the fifteenth century.

      Ahriman's influence on humanity during that world-stratum was possible and could have had devastating consequences, because in that stratum man's relation to divine activity had died out. But man could not develop free will in any other way than by making his way into a sphere in which the divine-spiritual beings that had been united with him from the very beginning were not living.

      Seen cosmically, the Sun-Mystery is in the essence of human evolution. Up until the important turning-point of his evolution, man was able to perceive that divine-spiritual beings were conjoined with his origin. They have however detached themselves from the sun and left only what is dead behind. So that man in his corporality can now only receive dead thoughts through the sun.

      But those beings have sent Christ from the sun to the earth. He has united his being with the mortality of the divine-spiritual existence in Ahriman's realm for the healing of humanity. Thus humanity has two possibilities that guarantee his freedom: to consciously turn to Christ with the spiritual disposition he subconsciously held during the descent from the vision of super-sensory spirituality up until the use of the intellect; or to complete the detachment from this spirituality and therewith become addicted to the orientation of Ahrimanic powers.

      Humanity has been in this situation since the beginning of the fifteenth century. This has been in preparation – with evolution everything happens gradually – since the Mystery of Golgotha which, as the earth's greatest event, is intended to rescue man from the corruption he is necessarily exposed to, because he is meant to be a free being.

      One can therefore say that what humanity has done in this situation was in semi-consciousness. And in this way it led to what is good in the abstract ideas about nature and to many equally good principles about life in general.

      But the time is over when man may still unconsciously evolve in the dangerous Ahrimanic sphere.

      The investigator of the spiritual world must draw humanity's attention to the spiritual fact that Michael has taken over the spiritual leadership of human affairs. Michael does what he must do in a way which does not influence people; but they can follow him in freedom with the Christ-force, in order to find their way out of Ahriman's sphere in which in was necessary for them to enter.                    

      Whoever honestly feels one with Anthroposophy from the bottom of his soul will rightly understand this Michael phenomenon. And Anthroposophy would like to be the message of this Michael-Mission.

       

      (Translated by Frank Thomas Smith,  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_world/ )

    • Simone
      MICHAEL S TASK IN THE SPHERE OF AHRIMAN When man looks back on his evolution, and calls up before his inner eye the special characteristics which his spiritual
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 5 9:30 AM
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                                                                                                  MICHAEL'S TASK IN THE SPHERE OF AHRIMAN

        When man looks back on his evolution, and calls up before his inner eye the special characteristics which his spiritual life has assumed for the last five hundred years, he cannot help recognising, even within the ordinary consciousness and if but faintly, that since this period the whole earthly evolution of man stands at a significant and critical point.

        In the last study I referred from one point of view to this significant turning-point. One looks up from this point into the distant past of evolution; one sees how the soul-force in man which today is active as the force of intelligence, has changed in the course of time.

        In the present period, thoughts — dead abstract thoughts — make their appearance in the field of human consciousness. These thoughts are bound up with the physical body of man; man is obliged to recognise that they are of his own generating.

        In primitive times, when man turned his soul in the direction in which today his thoughts are revealed to him, he saw Divine-Spiritual Beings. He knew himself bound to these Beings in his whole nature, even down to the physical body; he was obliged to recognise himself as their offspring. But he not only owed his being to them, he also owed them what he accomplished. Man had no will of his own. What he did was a manifestation of Divine Will.

        By degrees, as described in the last study, man attained to a will of his own, at a period which dawned about five hundred years ago.

        But this stage was far more different from all those which preceded it than any of them from one another.

        When the thoughts pass over into the physical body, they lose their livingness. They are dead forms, spiritually dead. Previously, though belonging to man, they were at the same time organs of the Divine-Spiritual Beings to whom man belonged. They were actual will in man. And through them the man felt himself in living union with the spiritual world.

        With his dead thoughts he felt himself cut off from the spiritual world. He felt himself entirely removed to the physical world.

        But this means also that he is now in the sphere of the Ahrimanic spirituality. The Ahrimanic spirituality had no great power in the regions in which the Beings of the higher Hierarchies retained man as in their own sphere — when as in primitive ages the higher Beings themselves acted directly in man, or when, as in later times, they worked in him through their ensouled or living reflection. As long as this working of supersensible Beings within the doings of man continued — that is until about the fifteenth century — the Ahrimanic powers had, within the evolution of mankind, only a faintly echoing power, if one may express it so.

        The description of Ahriman's activity given in the Persian religion is not in contradiction with this statement. For that religion refers to Ahriman's activity, not within the human soul, but in a world bordering directly upon the world of the human soul. Ahriman's action, as there described, does indeed affect the world of the human soul from a neighbouring spirit-world, but it does not directly interfere.

        This direct interference has only become possible in the space of time which began about five hundred years ago.

        Thus man is at the close of a stream of evolution within which his nature has developed out of a divine spirituality which finally dies to itself in the abstract intelligence of man.

        Man has not remained in the divine-spiritual spheres in which he originated.

        What began five hundred years ago for the consciousness of man had already taken place for a wider sphere of his whole being at the time when the Mystery of Golgotha took place on the Earth. It was then that, imperceptibly to the consciousness of the majority of human beings at that time, human evolution gradually glided out of a world in which Ahriman has little power, into one in which his power is great. This gliding into a different stratum of the world was completed in the fifteenth century.

        Ahriman's influence upon man in this stratum of the world is possible and can act so destructively because the activity of the Gods related to man has died in this sphere. But man could not develop free-will in any other way than by entering a sphere in which the Divine-Spiritual Beings connected with him from the very beginning were not alive.

        Considered cosmically, the Mystery of the Sun is contained in the nature of this evolution of humanity. The Divine-Spiritual Beings connected with his origin were united with that which — up to that important turning-point in his evolution — man was able to perceive in the Sun. These Divine-Spiritual Beings have separated from the Sun and have left there only the part of them that has died, so that the bodily nature of man can now receive through the Sun only the power of dead thoughts.

        But these Beings have sent Christ from the Sun to the Earth, For the welfare of humanity Christ has united His being with the dead part of divine-spiritual existence in Ahriman's kingdom. Thus two things are possible for man, and through this possibility his freedom is guaranteed: — to turn to Christ consciously in the spiritual frame of mind which he possessed subconsciously during the descent from the vision of supersensible spirit-existence to the use of intellect; or to wish to feel his severance from spirit-existence and thus fall in the direction taken by the Ahrimanic powers.

        Humanity has been in this situation since the beginning of the fifteenth century. It was prepared — for everything takes place gradually in evolution — after the Mystery of Golgotha, which, as it is the greatest event that has happened on the Earth, is destined to rescue man from the destruction to which he must be exposed because he is to become a free being.

        Now we may say that what has hitherto been done by humanity itself within this situation has taken place half unconsciously. It has led to what is good in the modern Nature-conception which lives in abstract thought, and it has led to many practical principles of life, equally good.

        But the age in which man could unfold his life thus unconsciously in the dangerous sphere of Ahriman has come to an end.

        It is the duty of the investigator into the spiritual world to draw the attention of humanity to the spiritual fact that Michael has taken over the spiritual guidance of human affairs. Michael does what he has to do in such a way that he does not thereby wield an influence over human beings; but they may follow him in freedom, in order with the Christ power to find the way out of that sphere of Ahriman which they were obliged to enter.

        One who honestly, out of the deepest being of his soul, can feel himself one with Anthroposophy, understands this phenomenon of Michael truly. And Anthroposophy would like to be the message of this mission of Michael.

                                                                                                                                                                         

         (http://www.rsarchive.org /)

      • dottie zold
        Intermezzo VIII: It is the duty of the investigator into the spiritual world to draw the attention of humanity to the spiritual fact that Michael has taken
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 6 6:42 PM
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          Intermezzo VIII:
          "It is the duty of the investigator into the spiritual world to draw the attention of humanity to the spiritual fact that Michael has taken over the spiritual guidance of human affairs. Michael does what he has to do in such a way that he does not thereby wield an influence over human beings; but they may follow him in freedom, in order with the Christ power to find the way out of that sphere of Ahriman which they were obliged to enter.
           
          One who honestly, out of the deepest being of his soul, can feel himself one with Anthroposophy, understands this phenomenon of Michael truly. And Anthroposophy would like to be the message of this mission of Michael."
           
          Dear Friends,
           
          Looking at this post above I find myself thinking to the fifteenth century and who had the greatest impact right at the beginning: Jeanne d'Arc. She took the battle directly to Ahriman by daring to enter into battle on behalf of mankind. Once again we have a woman who is attacked by the adversary in such a way that we have to be looking at the woman clothed with the sun, moon under her feet, Isis moon that is, and the stars above her head. I wonder if because she did this mankind can be freed for the next battle as when Christ was crucified he was able to uplift man, and the way in which Abraham changed the makeup of the Thinking, in the way in which each initiate, once attaining something, it is attainable for all of mankind.
           
          But not only was it that she took on the battle, it is what is said by Rudolf Steiner above 'Michael has taken over the spiritual guidance of mankind' and we follow him in freedom. Did not Jeanne d'Arc do this? Did she not, right at the beginning follow Michael and Sophia, straight to the tasks that were hers? Yes she did. Incredible to think of what occurs when the woman clothed with the sun meets the adversary:
           
           
          Revelations 12:13
           
          And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man (child).
           
          Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/GreekList Available
Commentaries
          No Images or Hymns AvailableVersions / TranslationsDictionary Aids
          Rev 12:14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
          Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/GreekList Available Commentaries
          No Images or Hymns AvailableVersions / TranslationsDictionary Aids
          Rev 12:15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
          Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/GreekList Available Commentaries
          No Images or Hymns AvailableVersions / Translations
          Rev 12:16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
          Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/GreekList Available Commentaries
          No Images or Hymns AvailableVersions / TranslationsDictionary Aids
          Rev 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
           
          Dottie:
          War will be made with the remnant of her seed, but because we keep the Word of God we are able to move foward always with our task firmly in hand.  Who else during that time have we heard of who had claimed to fight on behalf of Michael? Is there anyone else that it can be said had stated they had followed Michael? If there is I would love to know of that person.
           
          That little child. That little child followed straight through as a spiritual pupil of Michael. And when she had disavowed him, as they said she could live if she did, it could be no other way for her to follow other than to get up the next morning and tell the church people she had lied in saying that Michael had not spoken to her. For somehow those church people made her think, confused her, that life was more important than death. How very Peter of them is what I think. He who would fight to the last drop of breath, even trying to upright himself on the cross, hanging upside down, to try and still stop from dying. But not she. She said, while tied to the cross, bring me my Lord and place Him in front of me. And so he did.
           
          But follow Michael she did. And not only that, but she showed through her willingness to follow Michael, the courage it takes to carry onward the task of the cosmic beings and ultimately the Christ for mankind.
           
          Thank you Simone for carrying on these Anthroposophical Leading Thoughts. How important they are. I haven't read them in a month or so as I have been ill. But today I thought 'oh let me see what is going on here'. And I am thankful.
          All good good things,
          Dottie


          You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
        • Simone
          Dear Dottie, Thank you for coming back, I really missed your posts. And thanks also to Frank, who generously gave me permission to publish his version here.
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 7 10:20 AM
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            Dear Dottie,

            Thank you for coming back, I really missed your posts. And thanks also to Frank, who generously gave me permission to publish his version here. It's great (for me) to be able to read the two versions side by side, what compels me to think about them versus just read them without paying much attention. This "intermezzo" is particularly meaningful, imho, and you stressed the part that says it all.

            Hugs,

            Simone

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
            >
            > Intermezzo VIII:
            > "It is the duty of the investigator into the spiritual world to draw the attention of humanity to the spiritual fact that Michael has taken over the spiritual guidance of human affairs. Michael does what he has to do in such a way that he does not thereby wield an influence over human beings; but they may follow him in freedom, in order with the Christ power to find the way out of that sphere of Ahriman which they were obliged to enter.
            >
            > One who honestly, out of the deepest being of his soul, can feel himself one with Anthroposophy, understands this phenomenon of Michael truly. And Anthroposophy would like to be the message of this mission of Michael."
            >
            > Dear Friends,
            >
            > Looking at this post above I find myself thinking to the fifteenth century and who had the greatest impact right at the beginning: Jeanne d'Arc. She took the battle directly to Ahriman by daring to enter into battle on behalf of mankind. Once again we have a woman who is attacked by the adversary in such a way that we have to be looking at the woman clothed with the sun, moon under her feet, Isis moon that is, and the stars above her head. I wonder if because she did this mankind can be freed for the next battle as when Christ was crucified he was able to uplift man, and the way in which Abraham changed the makeup of the Thinking, in the way in which each initiate, once attaining something, it is attainable for all of mankind.
            >
            > But not only was it that she took on the battle, it is what is said by Rudolf Steiner above 'Michael has taken over the spiritual guidance of mankind' and we follow him in freedom. Did not Jeanne d'Arc do this? Did she not, right at the beginning follow Michael and Sophia, straight to the tasks that were hers? Yes she did. Incredible to think of what occurs when the woman clothed with the sun meets the adversary:
            >
            > http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev012.html
            >
            > Revelations 12:13
            >
            > And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man (child).
            >
            >
            >
            > Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
            >
            > Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
            >
            > Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
            >
            > Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
            >
            > Dottie:
            > War will be made with the remnant of her seed, but because we keep the Word of God we are able to move foward always with our task firmly in hand. Who else during that time have we heard of who had claimed to fight on behalf of Michael? Is there anyone else that it can be said had stated they had followed Michael? If there is I would love to know of that person.
            >
            > That little child. That little child followed straight through as a spiritual pupil of Michael. And when she had disavowed him, as they said she could live if she did, it could be no other way for her to follow other than to get up the next morning and tell the church people she had lied in saying that Michael had not spoken to her. For somehow those church people made her think, confused her, that life was more important than death. How very Peter of them is what I think. He who would fight to the last drop of breath, even trying to upright himself on the cross, hanging upside down, to try and still stop from dying. But not she. She said, while tied to the cross, bring me my Lord and place Him in front of me. And so he did.
            >
            > But follow Michael she did. And not only that, but she showed through her willingness to follow Michael, the courage it takes to carry onward the task of the cosmic beings and ultimately the Christ for mankind.
            >
            > Thank you Simone for carrying on these Anthroposophical Leading Thoughts. How important they are. I haven't read them in a month or so as I have been ill. But today I thought 'oh let me see what is going on here'. And I am thankful.
            > All good good things,
            > Dottie
            >

          • elfuncle
            Hi Dottie, ... the attention of humanity to the spiritual fact that Michael has taken over the spiritual guidance of human affairs. Michael does what he has to
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 10 12:32 PM
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              Hi Dottie,

              You quoted Rudolf Steiner:

              > Intermezzo VIII:
              > "It is the duty of the investigator into the spiritual world to draw the attention of humanity to the spiritual fact that Michael has taken over the spiritual guidance of human affairs. Michael does what he has to do in such a way that he does not thereby wield an influence over human beings; but they may follow him in freedom, in order with the Christ power to find the way out of that sphere of Ahriman which they were obliged to enter.
              >
              > One who honestly, out of the deepest being of his soul, can feel himself one with Anthroposophy, understands this phenomenon of Michael truly. And Anthroposophy would like to be the message of this mission of Michael."

              This has always been the major reason for organized opposition to anthroposophy from the beginning, possibly as early as 1907. Latter-day varieties of such vile have first sought for personal flaws and shortcomings among anthroposophists and people engaged in professional activities in connection with practical results of spiritual science -- especially Waldorf education -- they've traced this work to Steiner and endeavored to attribute to him various types of misbehavior -- say, if a Waldorf teacher pinches a child's ear in New Zealand, it's because Steiner was a sadist and a child abuser who encouraged ear-pinching, and if an anthroposophist is wacky, it's because Steiner was wacky, if an anthroposophist is a racist and a nationalist, militaristic hawk, it's because Steiner was all those things, even paving the way to the Holocaust!

              And this is how they miss the mark completely, because the central core of Steiner's work was to pave a new way to Christ and to the influence of Michael. So when looking at history, we see the incluence of Michael in Tolstoi, Gandhi, MLK, Nelson Mandela etc. -- all those things that anthroposophy is supposed to oppose according to scholars of the Abyss....

              Those creatures of the Abyss should be blessed and loved, however, even though it stings them very painfully. I just took a peek into that dark place, and I saw that they're especially disgusted by seeng blessings in our e-group. Such blessings indicate that we're demented, they say.

              It seems like blessings and love act like poison on them hole creatures, something like garlic and crosses against vampires, silver bullets against werewolves. Which is why I just encouraged everyone to shower them with love and blessings in a recent message. It's like offering sunshine to a nasty mountain troll who will melt into a lake from exposure to light, or like a 1967 hippie giving flowers to an angry and belligerent San Fransisco cop -- no wonder PLANS started in that city, it all began with a reaction against Flower Power...





              Love, Peace, and Happiness,

              Tarjei
            • Frank Thomas Smith
              ... ________ Hi, Simone, I also like to compare them. Of course I knew this translation before I started mine (leafing through, as it were)and there was
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 11 10:01 AM
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                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Simone"
                <simonedim@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Dear Dottie,
                >
                > Thank you for coming back, I really missed your posts. And thanks also
                > to Frank, who generously gave me permission to publish his version here.
                > It's great (for me) to be able to read the two versions side by
                > side, what compels me to think about them versus just read them without
                > paying much attention. This "intermezzo" is particularly
                > meaningful, imho, and you stressed the part that says it all.
                ________

                Hi, Simone,
                I also like to compare them. Of course I knew this translation before
                I started mine (leafing through, as it were)and there was something
                about it that bothered me, (like "leading thoughts") which is one
                reason why I undertook the task. The other reason was to be able to
                understand them better myself. Now I see that the main difference
                between the two is mostly a matter of style. Where we only
                occasionally differ on meaning (or interpretation), I think it's six
                of one and a half-dozen of the other. In other words I wouldn't bet a
                nickel on my being right. Thanks for you efforts and comments
                Frank



                >
                > Hugs,
                >
                > Simone
                >
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                > <dottie_z@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Intermezzo VIII:
                > > "It is the duty of the investigator into the spiritual world to draw
                > the attention of humanity to the spiritual fact that Michael has taken
                > over the spiritual guidance of human affairs. Michael does what he has
                > to do in such a way that he does not thereby wield an influence over
                > human beings; but they may follow him in freedom, in order with the
                > Christ power to find the way out of that sphere of Ahriman which they
                > were obliged to enter.
                > >
                > > One who honestly, out of the deepest being of his soul, can feel
                > himself one with Anthroposophy, understands this phenomenon of Michael
                > truly. And Anthroposophy would like to be the message of this mission of
                > Michael."
                > >
                > > Dear Friends,
                > >
                > > Looking at this post above I find myself thinking to the fifteenth
                > century and who had the greatest impact right at the beginning: Jeanne
                > d'Arc. She took the battle directly to Ahriman by daring to enter into
                > battle on behalf of mankind. Once again we have a woman who is attacked
                > by the adversary in such a way that we have to be looking at the woman
                > clothed with the sun, moon under her feet, Isis moon that is, and the
                > stars above her head. I wonder if because she did this mankind can be
                > freed for the next battle as when Christ was crucified he was able to
                > uplift man, and the way in which Abraham changed the makeup of the
                > Thinking, in the way in which each initiate, once attaining something,
                > it is attainable for all of mankind.
                > >
                > > But not only was it that she took on the battle, it is what is said by
                > Rudolf Steiner above 'Michael has taken over the spiritual guidance of
                > mankind' and we follow him in freedom. Did not Jeanne d'Arc do this? Did
                > she not, right at the beginning follow Michael and Sophia, straight to
                > the tasks that were hers? Yes she did. Incredible to think of what
                > occurs when the woman clothed with the sun meets the adversary:
                > >
                > > http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev012.html
                > >
                > > Revelations 12:13
                > >
                > > And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted
                > the woman which brought forth the man (child).
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that
                > she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is
                > nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the
                > serpent.
                > >
                > > Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after
                > the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
                > >
                > > Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her
                > mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his
                > mouth.
                > >
                > > Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make
                > war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God,
                > and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
                > >
                > > Dottie:
                > > War will be made with the remnant of her seed, but because we keep the
                > Word of God we are able to move foward always with our task firmly in
                > hand. Who else during that time have we heard of who had claimed to
                > fight on behalf of Michael? Is there anyone else that it can be said had
                > stated they had followed Michael? If there is I would love to know of
                > that person.
                > >
                > > That little child. That little child followed straight through as a
                > spiritual pupil of Michael. And when she had disavowed him, as they said
                > she could live if she did, it could be no other way for her to follow
                > other than to get up the next morning and tell the church people she had
                > lied in saying that Michael had not spoken to her. For somehow those
                > church people made her think, confused her, that life was more important
                > than death. How very Peter of them is what I think. He who would fight
                > to the last drop of breath, even trying to upright himself on the cross,
                > hanging upside down, to try and still stop from dying. But not she. She
                > said, while tied to the cross, bring me my Lord and place Him in front
                > of me. And so he did.
                > >
                > > But follow Michael she did. And not only that, but she showed through
                > her willingness to follow Michael, the courage it takes to carry onward
                > the task of the cosmic beings and ultimately the Christ for mankind.
                > >
                > > Thank you Simone for carrying on these Anthroposophical Leading
                > Thoughts. How important they are. I haven't read them in a month or so
                > as I have been ill. But today I thought 'oh let me see what is going on
                > here'. And I am thankful.
                > > All good good things,
                > > Dottie
                > >
                >
              • Simone
                ... Dear Frank, If it is just a matter of style, I like yours better. I understand it s probably because of a personal affinity with a style of writing that
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 12 1:18 PM
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                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, Simone,
                  > I also like to compare them. Of course I knew this translation before
                  > I started mine (leafing through, as it were)and there was something
                  > about it that bothered me, (like "leading thoughts") which is one
                  > reason why I undertook the task. The other reason was to be able to
                  > understand them better myself. Now I see that the main difference
                  > between the two is mostly a matter of style. Where we only
                  > occasionally differ on meaning (or interpretation), I think it's six
                  > of one and a half-dozen of the other. In other words I wouldn't bet a
                  > nickel on my being right. Thanks for you efforts and comments
                  > Frank

                  Dear Frank,

                  If it is just a matter of style, I like yours better. I understand it's probably because of a personal affinity with a style of writing that things seems clearer to me and easier to understand in your version, while other people may prefer the older version. Also, to be fair to the first translator, I think it's easier to ameliorate a translation than do it from scratch. Anyway, I'm glad you undertook the task since, first time I try to read "Leading Thoughts" I left the task uncompleted since I, er, didn't understand them. And thanks also for directing the questions and comments that came from your translation on this list, I obviously couldn't do it myself.

                  Glad to see you here,

                  Simone


                   

                • Frank Thomas Smith
                  Just a tip, Simone, in case you of others didn t realize it. The term Anthroposophical Intermezzo is my invention. In the original, Steiner simply interrupts
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 13 8:19 AM
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                    Just a tip, Simone, in case you of others didn't realize it. The term
                    "Anthroposophical Intermezzo" is my invention. In the original,
                    Steiner simply interrupts the actual numbered Guidelines.
                    Frank


                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Simone"
                    <simonedim@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                    > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi, Simone,
                    > > I also like to compare them. Of course I knew this translation before
                    > > I started mine (leafing through, as it were)and there was something
                    > > about it that bothered me, (like "leading thoughts") which is one
                    > > reason why I undertook the task. The other reason was to be able to
                    > > understand them better myself. Now I see that the main difference
                    > > between the two is mostly a matter of style. Where we only
                    > > occasionally differ on meaning (or interpretation), I think it's six
                    > > of one and a half-dozen of the other. In other words I wouldn't bet a
                    > > nickel on my being right. Thanks for you efforts and comments
                    > > Frank
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Frank,
                    >
                    > If it is just a matter of style, I like yours better. I understand
                    > it's probably because of a personal affinity with a style of writing
                    > that things seems clearer to me and easier to understand in your
                    > version, while other people may prefer the older version. Also, to be
                    > fair to the first translator, I think it's easier to ameliorate a
                    > translation than do it from scratch. Anyway, I'm glad you undertook
                    > the task since, first time I try to read "Leading Thoughts" I
                    > left the task uncompleted since I, er, didn't understand them. And
                    > thanks also for directing the questions and comments that came from your
                    > translation on this list, I obviously couldn't do it myself.
                    >
                    > Glad to see you here,
                    >
                    > Simone
                    >
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