Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] [Question of List] (Was Re: Worthy of a Russian Novel )
- Dear List
I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me Tom's last name. The allegations he has made in this post need to be aired with Prokofieff and I intend to do this with him.
Thanking in advance.
tmasthenes13 <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:--- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "winters_diana"
<diana.winters@ ...> wrote:
> --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold
> <dottie_z@> wrote:
> > The work you put upb Mr. Mason clearly shows him to be
> > an antisemetic holocaust denier. That's all fine and
> > good until he tries to tie Steiner to that bedpost as
> > well. Once again in order to create a reputation for
> > themselves, people have to tie Rudolf Steiner to their
> > twisted reasoning. It's just a despicable way of
> > getting your name out there.
> It's all fine and good - holocaust denial and antisemitism are all fine
> and good - unless you tie it to Steiner? This is also Basic Dottie -
> she is on Steiner's team and she is mainly concerned to identify who is
> on the team with her and who is not, because those people who are not
> must be pointed to and sneered at. It's like she's picking teams in gym
> class in junior high school. (Her post has nothing to do with dislike
> of either holocaust denial or antisemitism. )
>=========== ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
I think I can illuminate this particular ambivalence and "fear and
loathing" on the part of Dottie and actually open it up to a much
greater context for those anthroposophists on the list.
You know that Dottie's hero on the Vorstand is Sergei Prokofieff.
Long before Sergei reached the Vorstand in Dornach, he was a devoted
student of a charismatic teacher of anthroposophy in Moscow by the
name of Gennady Bondarev. One of Bondarev's other students was Irina
Gordienko, who was killed in a traffic accident shortly after she
published her own book about Sergei's approach to anthroposophy.
So you can see the problem here. Holocaust denial through Bondarev IS
tied to "Steiner's bed" as it were, through the person of Sergei
Prokofieff, who would very much like to keep this chapter of his life
very secret and hidden. Now maybe you all can better understand why
Dottie is obliged to denounce Robert Mason.
Namely, there was a time in Sergei Prokofieff's life when he was just
as devoted to Gennday Bondarev as Robert Mason is devoted to Bondarev now.
As it turned out, Sergei Prokofieff, acting both like Judas Iscariot
and Pontius Pilate, was obliged to betray his own teacher Bondarev and
then "wash his hands of it" with the expulsion, or is it
excommunication, of Bondarev from the Anthroposophical Society.
You know, there's a real Russian novel in here. Where's Dostoyevsky
when you need him?
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- Hi Ottmar,
What I wonder Ottmar is where people say things that
are rumor or gossip without putting up the other
persons point of view, ie. Sergei Prokofieff's, on the
comment that he took something from Mr. Tomberg.
Rudolf Steiner often said he was accused of just
taking things from other streams and that this was not
true. In fact the critics use this point exactly to
say he 'stole' from other spiritual streams. So for me
it's always so important to know what the person being
accused thought of such a thing. Is it possible that
he too had already come to this information on his own
and then saw it in another's work and was validated
from it? Or did he take it and not say rightly that he
took it? It's always so crucial to have what the other
person things on such things or what they have to say
I think it fair before spreading rumors. And it is
spreading rumors in the sense that the other person
can not defend themselves or make their notes known.
And I don't think things happening like that are fair.
Although I do trust they happen all the time, I know
that as a spiritual science student I am ever learning
how quick fire is spread and how quick I may have to
backtrack. And so I have to think twice always and
some times three times and sometimes I still make the
mistake of putting someone else in a badlight from
someone else's comments.
You offered this up about Sergei and Mr. Tomberg and
then someone asked Tom what he thought and he
republished it on this list and who knows how many
rooms this will run through.
We did a funny experience one time in one of Dennis
Klocek's workshops. Two people on two different sides
of the room started out with a sentence shared only
with them. They then told the next person and that
person told the next person and so forth on down the
line. Can you imagine what it ended up like at the end
of the line? Well, let me tell you, it was so funny by
the time it reached me I could not tell it without
being in hysterics to the person next to me. Somehow I
did say it to the next person with tears in my eyes
and that person could not send it on down to the next
person as well. It was just too funny.
So we stop and we say what we heard and then the
person who heard it first told us what the sentence
was originally. It was so different we laughed for
days on end. And that's what happens to rumors.
All good things,
--- ottmar12 <ottmar12@...> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
> I thank you for restoring that part of my letter.
> This part seemed to
> be the most important part of my letter. Of course I
> cannot expect
> you, Tom, to restore the whole letter, but please
> add a link to it. I
> don't know how to do that. (But please, dear
> readers, keep in mind,
> this was only a small part of my letter, the other
> parts were equally
> important to me and are also necessary in order not
> give the
> impression that I only want to give ammunition to
> opponents.) Ottmar
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org,
> <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
> > To contribute to this discussion about SP, IG and
> the whole
> > question, I would like to call attention to a
> section of Ottmar's
> > and detailed posting today. I'm afraid it got lost
> in the shuffle.
> > Does anyone else know about the allegations Ottmar
> mentions below
> > Sergei Prokofieff may have stolen Valenting
> Tomberg's early
> > ideas about Kitezh or Kitesh, the Russian Grail
> > If true, that would go a long way toward
> explaining why SP wrote
> > a nasty "hit piece" on Tomberg, so that he,
> Sergei, could justify
> > stealing Tomberg's ideas and not give Tomberg
> credit because that
> > would surely be a source of great embarrassment
> for SP.
> > Sounds just like the way a Jesuit would operate.
> > And Ottmar, please do not worry about bringing
> this important
> > information. I thank you for it and the
> responsibility for its use
> > and/or misuse by me is totally on my karmic fat
> > Tom
> > > --- In email@example.com,
> > > <ottmar12@> wrote:
> > 4 On Sergej O. Prokofieffhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/
> > On Sergej Prokofieff: I remember how enthusiastic
> I was when
> reading a
> > book of him for the first time, "Rudolf Steiner
> und die Grundlegung
> > der neuen Mysterien," [Rudolf Steiner and the
> foundation of the new
> > mysteries.] I thought: wow, very well researched,
> a big concept and
> > such a young author.
> > Some years later I was very unpleasantly touched
> by a personal
> > experience. In Stuttgart I gave him a manuscript
> from a Dutch friend
> > for a book which should appear a year or 2 years
> later, for the
> > millennium of the Christianisation of Russia in
> 1988. The book was
> > about Kitesh or Kitezh.
> > Prokofieff sent back the manuscript with some not
> so nice words,
> > saying he didn't want to have anything to do with
> > For that book see:
> > Kitezh: The Russian Grail Legends Aquarian Press
> by Munin
> > That is the only book of that author which was
> translated into
> > English. In that book you find an English
> translation of the
> > text, which was written in the old Church-Russian
> language. Perhaps
> > that English and the Dutch versions are the only
> versions published
> > a modern western language.
> > Some years later Prokofieff also published a book
> where the theme of
> > Kitesh [or Kitezh] plays an important role, but he
> presents the idea
> > of Kitesh as his own idea but in fact it's
> Valentin Tomberg's idea,
> > expressed more than 50 years earlier! That's a
> moral and
> > no no of course, but Prokofieff trusts that his
> readers don't know
> > Tomberg's essays and books. And thus he
> acknowledges that Tomberg is
> > an occultist or esotericist who is able to find
> something of that
> > (Kitesh is, Tomberg says, the mythos, the
> spiritual essence of the
> > post-Atlantian period: a whole town, like the new
> Jerusalem is
> > into heaven, just like Goethe's Faust is the
> mythos for the 5 th
> > period: one person struggles for knowledge and
> liberation and
> > for the 4 th period.)
> > Of course Prokofieff can fascinate many people
> with his tremendous
> > knowledge/memory of quotations, but sometimes he
> makes unjust use of
> > them, turns and twists them until they fit into
> his ideas. Herbert
> > Wimbauer, an interesting author and lecturer wrote
> a book about it
> > Der Fall Prokofieff, (The Prokofieff Case)
> > http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm
> > Wimbauer withdrew from the public in the mid 80s,
> but for
> > `style' he broke his silence in 1995. (Wimbauer
> has nothing to do
> > Tomberg friends.)
> > I like Prokofieff for his love and dedication to
> Rudolf Steiner and
> > his work.
> > (I don't want to insult or slander Prokofieff or
> any of his
> > friends/adherents. I beg your excuse if you felt
> like this. I only
> > wanted to help to give a balanced view of that
> prominent member of
> > Anthr. Soc. He advanced the studies of many anthr.
> students by his
> > big books.)
> > I often asked myself what have Prokofieff,
> Bondarenko, Beljy,
> > Kobylinskij-Ellis in common, can I recognize
> anything special
> > in them?
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>=== message truncated ===
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