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Re: German anthropop youth movement

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  • elfuncle
    ... Those people seem to be doing historical revisionism with regard to Rudolf Steiner s biography. Peter S has been presenting Steiner as a young atheist of
    Message 1 of 52 , Dec 1, 2007
      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...> wrote:

      > Yes, I agree, that they would say things like "Well since Rudolf
      > Steiner was a product of
      > his times, and he was Central European, coming from a strong Judeao-
      > Christian belief system (remember Steiner was baptized Catholic),
      > then his view of Christianity and the entire
      > Christo-centric foundation of anthroposophy is as much a product of
      > his specific time."

      Those people seem to be doing historical revisionism with regard to Rudolf Steiner's biography. Peter S has been presenting Steiner as a young atheist of all things before he was "converted" by theosophy; these people portray him as a Catholic, perhaps based upon false rumors spread by his theosophical opponents after his break with the organization.

      In the fifth lecture of "The Fifth Gospel  " (GA #148), the Good Doctor commented on these rumors:
      "You see, we already have enough enemies and they act in a quite peculiar way. I don't wish to speak of this now, perhaps you already know about it from reading the "Newssheet". You also know the strange fact that there are people who have been saying for a long time now that what I teach is infected with all kinds of dogmatic Christianity, even with Jesuitism. Especially certain followers of the so-called Adyar-Theosophy talk in the worst way about this supposed Jesuitism, as well as many more hateful, unscrupulous things. And a certain source claiming outrage at the narrow-mindedness and perversity of our teaching, then completely falsified it. A man from America learned our teaching over a period of many months, wrote it down, brought it to America in a watered down version and then published a Rosicrucian Theosophy, which he copied from us. [The reference is to Max Heindel – ed.]He says that he learned a lot from us, but that he was then called by the masters and learned more from them. He was silent about the fact that he took the more profound things from my unpublished lecture cycles. One could accept that such a thing could happen in America One could, like Hillel, remain meekly silent – even when it spreads to Europe. Those who are most enraged at us here make a translation and in the translation say: Although there is also a Rosicrucian world view in Europe, it is narrow-minded and Jesuitical, and it can only thrive in the pure air of California.

      "Well, that's enough! That is our enemies' method. We can look at these things not only calmly, but also with compassion – but we may not close our eyes to them. When such things happen, then care must be taken by those who for years indulged such people who acted without scruples. I would really prefer not to speak about such things, were it not necessary in the service of truth. One must see everything with clarity."

      ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Fifth Gospel  ", Christiania, Norway, October 5, 1913, GA #148)
      One little note here: I know that it says "Oslo" all over the Steiner archives online, but the truth is that there was no Oslo until 1924, only months before Steiner passed away! That's when the parliament decided, without consulting the people of the capital at all -- which makes the name-change ipso facto illegal and invalid imho -- to change the city's name, because Christiania had originally been named after King Christian IV of Denmark-Norway in 1624, so going back to the ancient Old Norse name was some sort of nationalist impulse, but it should never ever have happened because folks in this part of the country don't know how to say it, they persistently mispronounce it -- including 99  per cent of media people -- by saying "Oshloo", which is terrible and horrible. Now, to make matters even more complicated, the name of the city was changed from Christiania to Kristiania in 1878, so the Fifth Gospel lectures of 1913 were actually held in Kristiania, Norway.

      > HPB gave the
      > example, when there was a fight between Christian and Indian-oriented
      > members in the London Lodge she proposed (ordered?) that there should
      > be 2 lodges, Steiner follow the same principle: differentiation
      > instead of centralisation, in Stuttgart there were I think 4
      > lodges/Zweige at Steiner's time.

      Who needs lodges these days? For what purpose? Are there anthroposophical lodges around, like masonic lodges? Well, I'm content with the Lodge of Planetary Aunts and Uncles, where I don't need membership as long as Uncle Taz tells me everything that's going on there. (You've got to be an elf to get in there anyway.)

      The Arch-Villain in The Lodge of Planetary Aunts and Uncles

    • dottie zold
      Hi Ottmar, What I wonder Ottmar is where people say things that are rumor or gossip without putting up the other persons point of view, ie. Sergei
      Message 52 of 52 , Dec 10, 2007
        Hi Ottmar,

        What I wonder Ottmar is where people say things that
        are rumor or gossip without putting up the other
        persons point of view, ie. Sergei Prokofieff's, on the
        comment that he took something from Mr. Tomberg.

        Rudolf Steiner often said he was accused of just
        taking things from other streams and that this was not
        true. In fact the critics use this point exactly to
        say he 'stole' from other spiritual streams. So for me
        it's always so important to know what the person being
        accused thought of such a thing. Is it possible that
        he too had already come to this information on his own
        and then saw it in another's work and was validated
        from it? Or did he take it and not say rightly that he
        took it? It's always so crucial to have what the other
        person things on such things or what they have to say
        about it.

        I think it fair before spreading rumors. And it is
        spreading rumors in the sense that the other person
        can not defend themselves or make their notes known.
        And I don't think things happening like that are fair.
        Although I do trust they happen all the time, I know
        that as a spiritual science student I am ever learning
        how quick fire is spread and how quick I may have to
        backtrack. And so I have to think twice always and
        some times three times and sometimes I still make the
        mistake of putting someone else in a badlight from
        someone else's comments.

        You offered this up about Sergei and Mr. Tomberg and
        then someone asked Tom what he thought and he
        republished it on this list and who knows how many
        rooms this will run through.

        We did a funny experience one time in one of Dennis
        Klocek's workshops. Two people on two different sides
        of the room started out with a sentence shared only
        with them. They then told the next person and that
        person told the next person and so forth on down the
        line. Can you imagine what it ended up like at the end
        of the line? Well, let me tell you, it was so funny by
        the time it reached me I could not tell it without
        being in hysterics to the person next to me. Somehow I
        did say it to the next person with tears in my eyes
        and that person could not send it on down to the next
        person as well. It was just too funny.
        So we stop and we say what we heard and then the
        person who heard it first told us what the sentence
        was originally. It was so different we laughed for
        days on end. And that's what happens to rumors.

        All good things,
        --- ottmar12 <ottmar12@...> wrote:

        > Hi Tom,
        > I thank you for restoring that part of my letter.
        > This part seemed to
        > be the most important part of my letter. Of course I
        > cannot expect
        > you, Tom, to restore the whole letter, but please
        > add a link to it. I
        > don't know how to do that. (But please, dear
        > readers, keep in mind,
        > this was only a small part of my letter, the other
        > parts were equally
        > important to me and are also necessary in order not
        > give the
        > impression that I only want to give ammunition to
        > Prokrofieff
        > opponents.) Ottmar
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
        > "tmasthenes13"
        > <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > To contribute to this discussion about SP, IG and
        > the whole
        > authorship
        > > question, I would like to call attention to a
        > section of Ottmar's
        > long
        > > and detailed posting today. I'm afraid it got lost
        > in the shuffle.
        > >
        > > Does anyone else know about the allegations Ottmar
        > mentions below
        > that
        > > Sergei Prokofieff may have stolen Valenting
        > Tomberg's early
        > published
        > > ideas about Kitezh or Kitesh, the Russian Grail
        > myth?
        > >
        > > If true, that would go a long way toward
        > explaining why SP wrote
        > such
        > > a nasty "hit piece" on Tomberg, so that he,
        > Sergei, could justify
        > > stealing Tomberg's ideas and not give Tomberg
        > credit because that
        > > would surely be a source of great embarrassment
        > for SP.
        > >
        > > Sounds just like the way a Jesuit would operate.
        > Wow!
        > >
        > > And Ottmar, please do not worry about bringing
        > this important
        > > information. I thank you for it and the
        > responsibility for its use
        > > and/or misuse by me is totally on my karmic fat
        > head.
        > >
        > > Tom
        > >
        > >
        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
        > "ottmar12"
        > > > <ottmar12@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > 4 On Sergej O. Prokofieff
        > >
        > > On Sergej Prokofieff: I remember how enthusiastic
        > I was when
        > reading a
        > > book of him for the first time, "Rudolf Steiner
        > und die Grundlegung
        > > der neuen Mysterien," [Rudolf Steiner and the
        > foundation of the new
        > > mysteries.] I thought: wow, very well researched,
        > a big concept and
        > > such a young author.
        > >
        > > Some years later I was very unpleasantly touched
        > by a personal
        > > experience. In Stuttgart I gave him a manuscript
        > from a Dutch friend
        > > for a book which should appear a year or 2 years
        > later, for the
        > > millennium of the Christianisation of Russia in
        > 1988. The book was
        > > about Kitesh or Kitezh.
        > >
        > > Prokofieff sent back the manuscript with some not
        > so nice words,
        > > saying he didn't want to have anything to do with
        > that.
        > >
        > > For that book see:
        > >
        > http://www.hudiwoga.nl/Publicaties/Kitesj/Kitesj.asp
        > > Kitezh: The Russian Grail Legends Aquarian Press
        > by Munin
        > Nederlander
        > >
        > > That is the only book of that author which was
        > translated into
        > > English. In that book you find an English
        > translation of the
        > original
        > > text, which was written in the old Church-Russian
        > language. Perhaps
        > > that English and the Dutch versions are the only
        > versions published
        > in
        > > a modern western language.
        > >
        > > Some years later Prokofieff also published a book
        > where the theme of
        > > Kitesh [or Kitezh] plays an important role, but he
        > presents the idea
        > > of Kitesh as his own idea but in fact it's
        > Valentin Tomberg's idea,
        > > expressed more than 50 years earlier! That's a
        > moral and
        > intellectual
        > > no no of course, but Prokofieff trusts that his
        > readers don't know
        > > Tomberg's essays and books. And thus he
        > acknowledges that Tomberg is
        > > an occultist or esotericist who is able to find
        > something of that
        > size.
        > >
        > > (Kitesh is, Tomberg says, the mythos, the
        > spiritual essence of the
        > 6th
        > > post-Atlantian period: a whole town, like the new
        > Jerusalem is
        > lifted
        > > into heaven, just like Goethe's Faust is the
        > mythos for the 5 th
        > > period: one person struggles for knowledge and
        > liberation and
        > Oedipus
        > > for the 4 th period.)
        > >
        > > Of course Prokofieff can fascinate many people
        > with his tremendous
        > > knowledge/memory of quotations, but sometimes he
        > makes unjust use of
        > > them, turns and twists them until they fit into
        > his ideas. Herbert
        > > Wimbauer, an interesting author and lecturer wrote
        > a book about it
        > >
        > > Der Fall Prokofieff, (The Prokofieff Case)
        > > http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm
        > >
        > > Wimbauer withdrew from the public in the mid 80s,
        > but for
        > Prokofieff's
        > > `style' he broke his silence in 1995. (Wimbauer
        > has nothing to do
        > with
        > > Tomberg friends.)
        > > I like Prokofieff for his love and dedication to
        > Rudolf Steiner and
        > > his work.
        > >
        > > (I don't want to insult or slander Prokofieff or
        > any of his
        > > friends/adherents. I beg your excuse if you felt
        > like this. I only
        > > wanted to help to give a balanced view of that
        > prominent member of
        > the
        > > Anthr. Soc. He advanced the studies of many anthr.
        > students by his
        > > big books.)
        > >
        > > I often asked myself what have Prokofieff,
        > Bondarenko, Beljy,
        > > Kobylinskij-Ellis in common, can I recognize
        > anything special
        > Russian
        > > in them?
        > >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        === message truncated ===

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