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Pagan/?/SJ

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  • gaelman58
    Sister Jo: I don t understand how one can be a pagan...I ve given it some thought and come up empty...maybe it s the context I tend to put it in. As I
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 7, 2007
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      Sister Jo: I don't understand how one can be a pagan...I've given it
      some thought and come up empty...maybe it's the context I tend to put
      it in.

      As I understand it, given the spiritual evolutionary context that most
      of us are familiar with, we were all pagans one time or another back
      then...but things evolved, things happened...new religious beliefs and
      ideas appeared as the result of real events, eh?

      After all of that...how could one be a pagan today?

      Joost axin'...Gb
    • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/7/2007 4:57:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gaelman58@yahoo.com writes: Sister Jo: I don t understand how one can be a pagan...I ve given
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 8, 2007
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        In a message dated 8/7/2007 4:57:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gaelman58@... writes:


        Sister Jo: I don't understand how one can be a pagan...I've given it
        some thought and come up empty...maybe it's the context I tend to put
        it in.

        As I understand it, given the spiritual evolutionary context that most
        of us are familiar with, we were all pagans one time or another back
        then...but things evolved, things happened...new religious beliefs and
        ideas appeared as the result of real events, eh?

        After all of that...how could one be a pagan today?

        Joost axin'...Gb

        Think of it this way we are all pagans.  Its just being earth based.  Earth based religions penetrate the Christian church today. The Scots and Irish had their myths about the little people and Steiner talks about them.  Waldorf and anthroposophy is a mix of paganism and Christianity.  Did you see the movie "Wickerman" the women in the film were pagans.  They followed the cycles of the year and celebrated the solstice.  Given all of this I would call the anthroposophists today pagans as well.  I'm an anthroposophist drawn to the earth based Shamanism.   Joost saynng'   




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      • gaelman58
        ... it ... put ... most ... back ... beliefs and ... based. Earth ... and Irish had ... them. Waldorf ... see the ... followed the cycles of ... call the ...
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 8, 2007
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          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Cheeseandsalsa@...
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 8/7/2007 4:57:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
          > gaelman58@... writes:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Sister Jo: I don't understand how one can be a pagan...I've given
          it
          > some thought and come up empty...maybe it's the context I tend to
          put
          > it in.
          >
          > As I understand it, given the spiritual evolutionary context that
          most
          > of us are familiar with, we were all pagans one time or another
          back
          > then...but things evolved, things happened...new religious
          beliefs and
          > ideas appeared as the result of real events, eh?
          >
          > After all of that...how could one be a pagan today?
          >
          > Joost axin'...Gb
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Think of it this way we are all pagans. Its just being earth
          based. Earth
          > based religions penetrate the Christian church today. The Scots
          and Irish had
          > their myths about the little people and Steiner talks about
          them. Waldorf
          > and anthroposophy is a mix of paganism and Christianity. Did you
          see the
          > movie "Wickerman" the women in the film were pagans. They
          followed the cycles of
          > the year and celebrated the solstice. Given all of this I would
          call the
          > anthroposophists today pagans as well. I'm an anthroposophist
          drawn to the
          > earth based Shamanism. Joost saynng'

          Sister Jo: I think I saw the older version of that film...
          70's?...I distinctly remember a scene with the fellow thrashing
          around in bed listening to the siren song of the beautiful woman
          dancing naked just on the other side of the wall from him...ah, the
          stark beauty and power of a dancing woman...we all have different
          visions of the Grail, eh? :)

          Yes, Steiner did speak of that world...but not a hell of alot
          compared to some...in the "dusty tomes"...I don't mean the pop
          stuff, there's a richness which, for most of my adult life, I didn't
          know was there...then, of course, there's my own experience along
          those lines.

          With children, I just shoot from the hip and tell them about my
          experience...with skeptics...I'm circumspect, but that does not mean
          I give one bloody inch with respect to their, modern, "enlightened"
          views.

          You might be familiar with the problem one has with regard to the
          use of magic...the secret of which, it seems to me, to be the simple
          awareness one can have in a particular situation that another person
          does not have...and that awareness, I think, seems to be capable of
          limitless? expansion...and that might not be something that one
          should strive for...might not, dunno.

          Couldn't one be a practicing shaman within the context of the
          traditional religions?...Gb
          >
          >
          >
          > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
          new AOL at
          > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
          >
        • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/8/2007 5:17:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gaelman58@yahoo.com writes: Couldn t one be a practicing shaman within the context of the
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 8, 2007
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            In a message dated 8/8/2007 5:17:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gaelman58@... writes:
            Couldn't one be a practicing shaman within the context of the
            traditional religions?.. .Gb
            >
            Hi Gb, absolutely one could be a practicing shaman and there are many that draw upon the font of other world religions.  There is Don Miguel Ruiz who is from a genetic line of Toltecs he ueses Mexican mystery medicine.  He writes in his books about the Christ and the Sun being.  And how we all should meditate on the Sun.  He gets the knowledge in the ethers and uses all religions pagan and beyond I believe.  Once on the other side of things one eventually draws upon all faiths.  In my front porch I have a "multi-faith" banner with a Steiner biography book lying on the coffee table and a big Budda head on my threshold.  It all becomes one thing for me.  ~Chantel
             
             




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          • dottie zold
            http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_sc/human_evolution All good things, Dottie
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 9, 2007
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              http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_sc/human_evolution

              All good things,
              Dottie



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            • Frank Thomas Smith
              ... This has profound implications imo. It doesn t put evolution in doubt, but it does insure that the human being s appearance on the evolutionary stage
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 9, 2007
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                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                >
                > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_sc/human_evolution
                >
                This has profound implications imo. It doesn't put evolution in doubt,
                but it does insure that the human being's appearance on the
                evolutionary stage remains a mystery.
                Frank
              • dottie zold
                Here s the Los Angeles Times article on the same subject. And with pictures:)))
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 9, 2007
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                  Here's the Los Angeles Times article on the same
                  subject. And with pictures:)))

                  http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-skull9aug09,1,7105899.story?ctrack=2&cset=true

                  d


                  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_sc/human_evolution
                  > >
                  > This has profound implications imo. It doesn't put
                  > evolution in doubt,
                  > but it does insure that the human being's appearance
                  > on the
                  > evolutionary stage remains a mystery.
                  > Frank
                  >
                  >




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                • gaelman58
                  ... many that ... Ruiz who is ... medicine. He writes ... should ... uses all religions ... eventually ... banner with a ... head on my ... You ve probably
                  Message 8 of 29 , Aug 9, 2007
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                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Cheeseandsalsa@...
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 8/8/2007 5:17:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
                    > gaelman58@... writes:
                    >
                    > Couldn't one be a practicing shaman within the context of the
                    > traditional religions?..trad
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Gb, absolutely one could be a practicing shaman and there are
                    many that
                    > draw upon the font of other world religions. There is Don Miguel
                    Ruiz who is
                    > from a genetic line of Toltecs he ueses Mexican mystery
                    medicine. He writes
                    > in his books about the Christ and the Sun being. And how we all
                    should
                    > meditate on the Sun. He gets the knowledge in the ethers and
                    uses all religions
                    > pagan and beyond I believe. Once on the other side of things one
                    eventually
                    > draws upon all faiths. In my front porch I have a "multi-faith"
                    banner with a
                    > Steiner biography book lying on the coffee table and a big Budda
                    head on my
                    > threshold. It all becomes one thing for me. ~Chantel


                    You've probably been asked this before...I think of a shaman being
                    ensconced in a people, a culture...for he/she does his/her work
                    traditionally within the mindset of those folks...e.g. throwing the
                    bones and indicating the leopard is down by the river (from a
                    documentary) or Christ's work through Mary at the Marriage Feast of
                    Cana...is shamanism possible outside that context?...G.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
                    new AOL at
                    > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                    >
                  • Jo Ann Schwartz
                    Gaelman: There are a lot of answers to your question. Here s one. You say, things evolved, things happened...new religious beliefs and ideas appeared as the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Aug 9, 2007
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                      Gaelman:

                      There are a lot of answers to your question. Here's one.

                      You say, "things evolved, things happened...new religious
                      beliefs and ideas appeared as the result of real events"

                      From what you write here, I would guess that you believe in
                      the reality of these events. More, that the reality of
                      these events feeds you, nourishes you, at least on some
                      level.

                      But the religion that sprang from those events has not fed
                      me for a very long time. I have a lot of admiration for
                      Dottie's quest to find the divine feminine within the
                      christian/jewish tradition. But that tradition doesn't
                      feed me enough to make me want to tie myself into knots for
                      it. I'd rather embrace a tradition that embraces God
                      Herself in all Her facets; that understands God as immanent
                      rather than transcendent.

                      Here's another answer: First there is a mountain, then
                      there is no mountain, then there is. (h/t Donovan)

                      And another: when I first found my reclaiming/feri
                      community, it was like coming home. Some years later, it's
                      still home.

                      Be well.

                      As ever,
                      Sr. Jo



                      --- gaelman58 wrote:

                      >
                      > Sister Jo: I don't understand how one can be a
                      > pagan...I've given it some thought and come up
                      > empty...maybe it's the context I tend to put it in.
                      >
                      > As I understand it, given the spiritual evolutionary
                      > context that most of us are familiar with, we were all
                      > pagans one time or another back then...but things
                      evolved,
                      > things happened...new religious beliefs and
                      > ideas appeared as the result of real events, eh?
                      >
                      > After all of that...how could one be a pagan today?
                      >
                      > Joost axin'...Gb



                      ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
                      "Life's short and we never have enough time for the hearts of those who travel the way with us. O, be swift to love! Make haste to be kind." --Henri-Frederic Amiel
                    • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/9/2007 3:53:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gaelman58@yahoo.com writes: You ve probably been asked this before...I think of a shaman being
                      Message 10 of 29 , Aug 9, 2007
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                        In a message dated 8/9/2007 3:53:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gaelman58@... writes:
                        You've probably been asked this before...I think of a shaman being
                        ensconced in a people, a culture...for he/she does his/her work
                        traditionally within the mindset of those folks...e.g. throwing the
                        bones and indicating the leopard is down by the river (from a
                        documentary) or Christ's work through Mary at the Marriage Feast of
                        Cana...is shamanism possible outside that context?...G.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        Here is the not so nice reality is that people are becoming shamans who are not born into it by lineage.  Coming from the words of blood-shamans it is becoming a problem.  Some of them use "Spirit" when they should be using straight therapy.  A sort of side by new age phenomenon.  Go to a few weekend workshops and/or a four year apprenticeship and get deemed SHAMAN.  And yes indeed the old ways you are ensconced in a culture and mind set so true...  Not anymore in Amerika... chantel 




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                      • doybia
                        What I m seeing is a confusion between terminology (words) and actual experiences. Gaelman sees a word: pagan; and connects the word to the ancient classical
                        Message 11 of 29 , Aug 10, 2007
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                          What I'm seeing is a confusion between terminology (words) and
                          actual experiences.

                          Gaelman sees a word: pagan; and connects the word to the ancient
                          classical and pre-classical world and religious experiences and
                          beliefs which are indeed no longer relevant to modern consciousness.

                          Simply, the experiences of modern pagans are similar to the
                          experiences of other modern people having religious experiences
                          which are appropriate (or at least work) in our own times. These
                          experiences are not a revival of ancient paganism, or any other
                          ancient religion. They are a reworking of certain threads from a few
                          old sources into something new, and obviously, for some people,
                          serviceable.

                          DeborahK
                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Jo Ann Schwartz
                          <sr_joanna@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Gaelman:
                          >
                          > There are a lot of answers to your question. Here's one.
                          >
                          > You say, "things evolved, things happened...new religious
                          > beliefs and ideas appeared as the result of real events"
                          >
                          > From what you write here, I would guess that you believe in
                          > the reality of these events. More, that the reality of
                          > these events feeds you, nourishes you, at least on some
                          > level.
                          >
                          > But the religion that sprang from those events has not fed
                          > me for a very long time. I have a lot of admiration for
                          > Dottie's quest to find the divine feminine within the
                          > christian/jewish tradition. But that tradition doesn't
                          > feed me enough to make me want to tie myself into knots for
                          > it. I'd rather embrace a tradition that embraces God
                          > Herself in all Her facets; that understands God as immanent
                          > rather than transcendent.
                          >
                          > Here's another answer: First there is a mountain, then
                          > there is no mountain, then there is. (h/t Donovan)
                          >
                          > And another: when I first found my reclaiming/feri
                          > community, it was like coming home. Some years later, it's
                          > still home.
                          >
                          > Be well.
                          >
                          > As ever,
                          > Sr. Jo
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- gaelman58 wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Sister Jo: I don't understand how one can be a
                          > > pagan...I've given it some thought and come up
                          > > empty...maybe it's the context I tend to put it in.
                          > >
                          > > As I understand it, given the spiritual evolutionary
                          > > context that most of us are familiar with, we were all
                          > > pagans one time or another back then...but things
                          > evolved,
                          > > things happened...new religious beliefs and
                          > > ideas appeared as the result of real events, eh?
                          > >
                          > > After all of that...how could one be a pagan today?
                          > >
                          > > Joost axin'...Gb
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
                          ^~
                          > "Life's short and we never have enough time for the hearts of
                          those who travel the way with us. O, be swift to love! Make haste to
                          be kind." --Henri-Frederic Amiel
                          >
                        • gaelman58
                          Sister Jo: There you are...as you should be...posting...why?...because you are who you are, and we are the less when you don t post....there s no compliment
                          Message 12 of 29 , Aug 10, 2007
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                            Sister Jo: There you are...as you should
                            be...posting...why?...because you are who you are, and we are the
                            less when you don't post....there's no compliment there, woman...I
                            am saying the sky is blue



                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Jo Ann Schwartz
                            <sr_joanna@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Gaelman:
                            >
                            > There are a lot of answers to your question. Here's one.
                            >
                            > You say, "things evolved, things happened...new religious
                            > beliefs and ideas appeared as the result of real events"
                            >
                            > From what you write here, I would guess that you believe in
                            > the reality of these events.

                            There might be those things you'd rather not talk about, Sister
                            Jo...but a question that's lingered with me is this: Steiner talked
                            about the whole shebang and then some...and he said that the very
                            meaning of it all is given by the Incarnation...do you not believe
                            that?


                            More, that the reality of
                            > these events feeds you, nourishes you, at least on some
                            > level.

                            Yup, you might have guessed, I'm a big fan of Yahweh and his
                            folks...who may not be considered by anyone who has an objective
                            view of history as just another hereditary clan among many...a short
                            remedy for almost all social screw-ups is putting the Jews in charge.


                            >
                            > But the religion that sprang from those events has not fed
                            > me for a very long time. I have a lot of admiration for
                            > Dottie's quest to find the divine feminine within the
                            > christian/jewish tradition. But that tradition doesn't
                            > feed me enough to make me want to tie myself into knots for
                            > it. I'd rather embrace a tradition that embraces God
                            > Herself in all Her facets; that understands God as immanent
                            > rather than transcendent.

                            Immanence and transcendence are not mutually exclusive, eh?...I'm
                            thinking along the lines of enstasy (sp?) and ecstasy.
                            >
                            > Here's another answer: First there is a mountain, then
                            > there is no mountain, then there is. (h/t Donovan)
                            >
                            > And another: when I first found my reclaiming/feri
                            > community, it was like coming home. Some years later, it's
                            > still home.
                            >
                            > Be well.

                            And you, Gaelbabby
                            >
                            > As ever,
                            > Sr. Jo
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- gaelman58 wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Sister Jo: I don't understand how one can be a
                            > > pagan...I've given it some thought and come up
                            > > empty...maybe it's the context I tend to put it in.
                            > >
                            > > As I understand it, given the spiritual evolutionary
                            > > context that most of us are familiar with, we were all
                            > > pagans one time or another back then...but things
                            > evolved,
                            > > things happened...new religious beliefs and
                            > > ideas appeared as the result of real events, eh?
                            > >
                            > > After all of that...how could one be a pagan today?
                            > >
                            > > Joost axin'...Gb
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
                            ^~
                            > "Life's short and we never have enough time for the hearts of
                            those who travel the way with us. O, be swift to love! Make haste to
                            be kind." --Henri-Frederic Amiel
                            >
                          • gaelman58
                            ... being ... the ... of ... shamans who are ... shamans it is ... be using ... few weekend ... SHAMAN. And yes indeed ... true... Not ... I get your
                            Message 13 of 29 , Aug 10, 2007
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                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Cheeseandsalsa@...
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 8/9/2007 3:53:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
                              > gaelman58@... writes:
                              >
                              > You've probably been asked this before...I think of a shaman
                              being
                              > ensconced in a people, a culture...for he/she does his/her work
                              > traditionally within the mindset of those folks...e.g. throwing
                              the
                              > bones and indicating the leopard is down by the river (from a
                              > documentary) or Christ's work through Mary at the Marriage Feast
                              of
                              > Cana...is shamanism possible outside that context?...G.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Here is the not so nice reality is that people are becoming
                              shamans who are
                              > not born into it by lineage. Coming from the words of blood-
                              shamans it is
                              > becoming a problem. Some of them use "Spirit" when they should
                              be using
                              > straight therapy. A sort of side by new age phenomenon. Go to a
                              few weekend
                              > workshops and/or a four year apprenticeship and get deemed
                              SHAMAN. And yes indeed
                              > the old ways you are ensconced in a culture and mind set so
                              true... Not
                              > anymore in Amerika... chantel

                              I get your point, Chantel...yeah, the Amerikan egregore...a many
                              faceted beast...here's another aspect to it...the "professional"
                              Irish Catholics who have absolutely forgotten where they've come
                              from...now partaking of the great American Dream/Nightmare... as
                              crass and shitty in their materialism and bullshit ideology as
                              anyone else...ah, but they're vulnerable, Chantel...and there are
                              those who can awaken, through nostalgia, their latent
                              humanity...yup, it's true... a soulful rendering of "Danny Boy"
                              works...why does it work?...because someone back then saw the dark
                              side of the great emigration over the horizon to the west and was
                              given a bit of magic to mitigate against it...that tune came from
                              out of the ether...it's a love song that transcends mere
                              romanticism...and here is the oddest thing about it...there is no
                              such thing as a bad rendition of it if it's done from the
                              heart...sometimes the world is eerie place, eh?...G.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
                              new AOL at
                              > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                              >
                            • gaelman58
                              ... consciousness. ... few ... Deborah: You ll read my posting to Sister Jo...I d appreciate your input...specifically, Steiner s indication about the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Aug 10, 2007
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                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" <doybia@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > What I'm seeing is a confusion between terminology (words) and
                                > actual experiences.
                                >
                                > Gaelman sees a word: pagan; and connects the word to the ancient
                                > classical and pre-classical world and religious experiences and
                                > beliefs which are indeed no longer relevant to modern
                                consciousness.
                                >
                                > Simply, the experiences of modern pagans are similar to the
                                > experiences of other modern people having religious experiences
                                > which are appropriate (or at least work) in our own times. These
                                > experiences are not a revival of ancient paganism, or any other
                                > ancient religion. They are a reworking of certain threads from a
                                few
                                > old sources into something new, and obviously, for some people,
                                > serviceable.
                                >
                                > DeborahK


                                Deborah: You'll read my posting to Sister Jo...I'd appreciate your
                                input...specifically, Steiner's indication about the Incarnation and
                                its relevance to modern paganism...G.



                                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Jo Ann Schwartz
                                > <sr_joanna@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Gaelman:
                                > >
                                > > There are a lot of answers to your question. Here's one.
                                > >
                                > > You say, "things evolved, things happened...new religious
                                > > beliefs and ideas appeared as the result of real events"
                                > >
                                > > From what you write here, I would guess that you believe in
                                > > the reality of these events. More, that the reality of
                                > > these events feeds you, nourishes you, at least on some
                                > > level.
                                > >
                                > > But the religion that sprang from those events has not fed
                                > > me for a very long time. I have a lot of admiration for
                                > > Dottie's quest to find the divine feminine within the
                                > > christian/jewish tradition. But that tradition doesn't
                                > > feed me enough to make me want to tie myself into knots for
                                > > it. I'd rather embrace a tradition that embraces God
                                > > Herself in all Her facets; that understands God as immanent
                                > > rather than transcendent.
                                > >
                                > > Here's another answer: First there is a mountain, then
                                > > there is no mountain, then there is. (h/t Donovan)
                                > >
                                > > And another: when I first found my reclaiming/feri
                                > > community, it was like coming home. Some years later, it's
                                > > still home.
                                > >
                                > > Be well.
                                > >
                                > > As ever,
                                > > Sr. Jo
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- gaelman58 wrote:
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Sister Jo: I don't understand how one can be a
                                > > > pagan...I've given it some thought and come up
                                > > > empty...maybe it's the context I tend to put it in.
                                > > >
                                > > > As I understand it, given the spiritual evolutionary
                                > > > context that most of us are familiar with, we were all
                                > > > pagans one time or another back then...but things
                                > > evolved,
                                > > > things happened...new religious beliefs and
                                > > > ideas appeared as the result of real events, eh?
                                > > >
                                > > > After all of that...how could one be a pagan today?
                                > > >
                                > > > Joost axin'...Gb
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
                                > ^~
                                > > "Life's short and we never have enough time for the hearts of
                                > those who travel the way with us. O, be swift to love! Make haste
                                to
                                > be kind." --Henri-Frederic Amiel
                                > >
                                >
                              • doybia
                                Human freedom. Steiner s indications about the Incarnation describe a spiritual event, a cosmic event. Some human beings see this as central and can build
                                Message 15 of 29 , Aug 11, 2007
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                                  Human freedom. Steiner's indications about the Incarnation describe a
                                  spiritual event, a cosmic event. Some human beings see this as central
                                  and can build their religious or spiritual lives working with this,
                                  others, no, doesn't work for them. So what?

                                  Let us take some different cases:

                                  1) Member of a fundamentalist sect, reads the Bible sort of literally,
                                  feels that he/she has a personal relationship with Jesus.

                                  2) Anthroposophist, member of the Christian Community, studies all of
                                  Steiner's stuff about the Incarnation.

                                  3) Good Catholic, follows standard line (whatever it may be).

                                  4) Jewish, does this and that, studies a bit, goes to local synagogue,
                                  has kids in Hebrew School on Sundays

                                  5) Pagan, follows appropriate rituals and practices

                                  6) Non-religious anthroposophist, studies Steiner, does some inner
                                  work, feels a connection to the Christ Being

                                  7) Agnostic with vague spiritual leanings, reads from a number of
                                  different streams, interested in ethical humanism.

                                  Who are we to pick out one person in this roster and say that that one
                                  has it right and everyone else in the list has it wrong? Every single
                                  human being has the right and obligation to follow their own spiritual
                                  path and religious path (which includes atheism) and to allow others
                                  to pursue their own way. The only thing that I see as a real spiritual
                                  wrong is to try to force, or manipulate or truck people into doing
                                  stuff they don't believe in.

                                  Personally, I don't think that having the "right" set of beliefs does
                                  anything for anyone, by itself. The essentials are possibly (not sure)
                                  the right practices and a healthy inner state, something that everyone
                                  can strive for and, of course, none of us ever achieve.

                                  I hope you find light on your path.
                                  DeborahK

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Deborah: You'll read my posting to Sister Jo...I'd appreciate your
                                  > input...specifically, Steiner's indication about the Incarnation and
                                  > its relevance to modern paganism...G.
                                • write3chairs
                                  ... Thanks for sharing all of this, Deborah. (Snipped for brevity s sake.) Isn t it pretty much what the Doctor has been trying to tell us all along? Love,
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Aug 12, 2007
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                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" wrote:

                                    > Human freedom....

                                    Thanks for sharing all of this, Deborah.
                                    (Snipped for brevity's sake.)
                                    Isn't it pretty much what the Doctor has
                                    been trying to tell us all along?

                                    Love,
                                    Jennifer
                                  • doybia
                                    Well, yeah. I just added in all the rest because human freedom seems like a hard concept for some of us...hard to comprehend...the burden of responsibility can
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Aug 12, 2007
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                                      Well, yeah. I just added in all the rest because human freedom seems
                                      like a hard concept for some of us...hard to comprehend...the burden
                                      of responsibility can be painful, too.
                                      DeborahK

                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs"
                                      <write3chairs@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Human freedom....
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for sharing all of this, Deborah.
                                      > (Snipped for brevity's sake.)
                                      > Isn't it pretty much what the Doctor has
                                      > been trying to tell us all along?
                                      >
                                      > Love,
                                      > Jennifer
                                      >
                                    • gaelman58
                                      ... Wouldn t you agree, Deborah, that Steiner did not say the Incarnation was A cosmic event...he said it was, THE cosmic event. ... What then, are we to make
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Aug 13, 2007
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                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" <doybia@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Human freedom. Steiner's indications about the Incarnation describe a
                                        > spiritual event, a cosmic event. Some human beings see this as central
                                        > and can build their religious or spiritual lives working with this,
                                        > others, no, doesn't work for them. So what?

                                        Wouldn't you agree, Deborah, that Steiner did not say the Incarnation
                                        was A cosmic event...he said it was, THE cosmic event.


                                        >
                                        > Let us take some different cases:
                                        >
                                        > 1) Member of a fundamentalist sect, reads the Bible sort of literally,
                                        > feels that he/she has a personal relationship with Jesus.
                                        >
                                        > 2) Anthroposophist, member of the Christian Community, studies all of
                                        > Steiner's stuff about the Incarnation.
                                        >
                                        > 3) Good Catholic, follows standard line (whatever it may be).
                                        >
                                        > 4) Jewish, does this and that, studies a bit, goes to local synagogue,
                                        > has kids in Hebrew School on Sundays
                                        >
                                        > 5) Pagan, follows appropriate rituals and practices
                                        >
                                        > 6) Non-religious anthroposophist, studies Steiner, does some inner
                                        > work, feels a connection to the Christ Being
                                        >
                                        > 7) Agnostic with vague spiritual leanings, reads from a number of
                                        > different streams, interested in ethical humanism.
                                        >
                                        > Who are we to pick out one person in this roster and say that that one
                                        > has it right and everyone else in the list has it wrong? Every single
                                        > human being has the right and obligation to follow their own spiritual
                                        > path and religious path (which includes atheism) and to allow others
                                        > to pursue their own way. The only thing that I see as a real spiritual
                                        > wrong is to try to force, or manipulate or truck people into doing
                                        > stuff they don't believe in.

                                        What then, are we to make of: "Remember what I have told you today
                                        about the three kinds of consciousness; remember that it is a disease
                                        if we are an atheist, if we do not find the God out of whom we are
                                        born and whom we must find if we possess a completely sound organism;
                                        that it is a misfortune if we do not find Christ; that it is a psychic
                                        deficiency if we do not find the spirit."?


                                        >
                                        > Personally, I don't think that having the "right" set of beliefs does
                                        > anything for anyone, by itself. The essentials are possibly (not sure)
                                        > the right practices and a healthy inner state, something that everyone
                                        > can strive for and, of course, none of us ever achieve.

                                        I'd agree with that...I just don't think there's a spiritual
                                        equivalence in your enumeration...for example, back in the days a
                                        marauding Bedouin converts to Islam...that doesn't mean everything is
                                        now hunky-dory...but it is a step up
                                        >
                                        > I hope you find light on your path.
                                        > DeborahK

                                        And you, Deborah....G.


                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Deborah: You'll read my posting to Sister Jo...I'd appreciate your
                                        > > input...specifically, Steiner's indication about the Incarnation and
                                        > > its relevance to modern paganism...G.
                                        >
                                      • gaelman58
                                        ... Joost becuz Dibra seems ta be a noice parson...doosn t mean ye moost agree with har...ye bluddy eejit...D.
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Aug 13, 2007
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                                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs"
                                          <write3chairs@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Human freedom....
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for sharing all of this, Deborah.
                                          > (Snipped for brevity's sake.)
                                          > Isn't it pretty much what the Doctor has
                                          > been trying to tell us all along?
                                          >
                                          > Love,
                                          > Jennifer
                                          >

                                          Joost becuz Dibra seems ta be a noice parson...doosn't mean ye moost
                                          agree with har...ye bluddy eejit...D.
                                        • doybia
                                          Gaelman, Either human beings are free to find their own path to the spirit, or they are not. I opt for freedom. There are many ways to be wrong. Having your
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Aug 13, 2007
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                                            Gaelman,
                                            Either human beings are free to find their own path to the spirit,
                                            or they are not. I opt for freedom.

                                            There are many ways to be wrong. Having your words right, but your
                                            inner stance wrong: perfect example, loudly talking vegetarianism
                                            while "thinking" meat. So you've read your Steiner and think you
                                            have figured out exactly what everyone should believe. And if they
                                            don't believe exactly this, then there is something wrong with them
                                            and you'll be happy to point this out. Have fun!
                                            DeborahK

                                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58"
                                            <gaelman58@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" <doybia@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Human freedom. Steiner's indications about the Incarnation
                                            describe a
                                            > > spiritual event, a cosmic event. Some human beings see this as
                                            central
                                            > > and can build their religious or spiritual lives working with
                                            this,
                                            > > others, no, doesn't work for them. So what?
                                            >
                                            > Wouldn't you agree, Deborah, that Steiner did not say the
                                            Incarnation
                                            > was A cosmic event...he said it was, THE cosmic event.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > Let us take some different cases:
                                            > >
                                            > > 1) Member of a fundamentalist sect, reads the Bible sort of
                                            literally,
                                            > > feels that he/she has a personal relationship with Jesus.
                                            > >
                                            > > 2) Anthroposophist, member of the Christian Community, studies
                                            all of
                                            > > Steiner's stuff about the Incarnation.
                                            > >
                                            > > 3) Good Catholic, follows standard line (whatever it may be).
                                            > >
                                            > > 4) Jewish, does this and that, studies a bit, goes to local
                                            synagogue,
                                            > > has kids in Hebrew School on Sundays
                                            > >
                                            > > 5) Pagan, follows appropriate rituals and practices
                                            > >
                                            > > 6) Non-religious anthroposophist, studies Steiner, does some
                                            inner
                                            > > work, feels a connection to the Christ Being
                                            > >
                                            > > 7) Agnostic with vague spiritual leanings, reads from a number
                                            of
                                            > > different streams, interested in ethical humanism.
                                            > >
                                            > > Who are we to pick out one person in this roster and say that
                                            that one
                                            > > has it right and everyone else in the list has it wrong? Every
                                            single
                                            > > human being has the right and obligation to follow their own
                                            spiritual
                                            > > path and religious path (which includes atheism) and to allow
                                            others
                                            > > to pursue their own way. The only thing that I see as a real
                                            spiritual
                                            > > wrong is to try to force, or manipulate or truck people into
                                            doing
                                            > > stuff they don't believe in.
                                            >
                                            > What then, are we to make of: "Remember what I have told you today
                                            > about the three kinds of consciousness; remember that it is a
                                            disease
                                            > if we are an atheist, if we do not find the God out of whom we are
                                            > born and whom we must find if we possess a completely sound
                                            organism;
                                            > that it is a misfortune if we do not find Christ; that it is a
                                            psychic
                                            > deficiency if we do not find the spirit."?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > Personally, I don't think that having the "right" set of beliefs
                                            does
                                            > > anything for anyone, by itself. The essentials are possibly (not
                                            sure)
                                            > > the right practices and a healthy inner state, something that
                                            everyone
                                            > > can strive for and, of course, none of us ever achieve.
                                            >
                                            > I'd agree with that...I just don't think there's a spiritual
                                            > equivalence in your enumeration...for example, back in the days a
                                            > marauding Bedouin converts to Islam...that doesn't mean everything
                                            is
                                            > now hunky-dory...but it is a step up
                                            > >
                                            > > I hope you find light on your path.
                                            > > DeborahK
                                            >
                                            > And you, Deborah....G.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Deborah: You'll read my posting to Sister Jo...I'd appreciate
                                            your
                                            > > > input...specifically, Steiner's indication about the
                                            Incarnation and
                                            > > > its relevance to modern paganism...G.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                                            ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Aug 13, 2007
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                                              Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
                                            • doybia
                                              Hi Gaelman, What do you have to do to become a member of the Anthroposophical Society? What do you have to do to become a member of the First Class of the
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Aug 13, 2007
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                                                Hi Gaelman,
                                                What do you have to do to become a member of the Anthroposophical
                                                Society?

                                                What do you have to do to become a member of the First Class of the
                                                School for Spiritual Science?

                                                Why do you suppose Steiner did not require aspiring members to
                                                acknowledge "THE cosmic event" before they joined?

                                                As things currently stand, pagans and atheists and practicing Jews,
                                                Catholics and Baptists, not to mention Hindus and Buddhists can all
                                                join the Anthroposophical Society and even, gasp, become members of
                                                the First Class. Isn't this a bit odd?

                                                DeborahK

                                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58"
                                                <gaelman58@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" <doybia@>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Human freedom. Steiner's indications about the Incarnation
                                                describe a
                                                > > spiritual event, a cosmic event. Some human beings see this as
                                                central
                                                > > and can build their religious or spiritual lives working with
                                                this,
                                                > > others, no, doesn't work for them. So what?
                                                >
                                                > Wouldn't you agree, Deborah, that Steiner did not say the
                                                Incarnation
                                                > was A cosmic event...he said it was, THE cosmic event.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > Let us take some different cases:
                                                > >
                                                > > 1) Member of a fundamentalist sect, reads the Bible sort of
                                                literally,
                                                > > feels that he/she has a personal relationship with Jesus.
                                                > >
                                                > > 2) Anthroposophist, member of the Christian Community, studies
                                                all of
                                                > > Steiner's stuff about the Incarnation.
                                                > >
                                                > > 3) Good Catholic, follows standard line (whatever it may be).
                                                > >
                                                > > 4) Jewish, does this and that, studies a bit, goes to local
                                                synagogue,
                                                > > has kids in Hebrew School on Sundays
                                                > >
                                                > > 5) Pagan, follows appropriate rituals and practices
                                                > >
                                                > > 6) Non-religious anthroposophist, studies Steiner, does some
                                                inner
                                                > > work, feels a connection to the Christ Being
                                                > >
                                                > > 7) Agnostic with vague spiritual leanings, reads from a number
                                                of
                                                > > different streams, interested in ethical humanism.
                                                > >
                                                > > Who are we to pick out one person in this roster and say that
                                                that one
                                                > > has it right and everyone else in the list has it wrong? Every
                                                single
                                                > > human being has the right and obligation to follow their own
                                                spiritual
                                                > > path and religious path (which includes atheism) and to allow
                                                others
                                                > > to pursue their own way. The only thing that I see as a real
                                                spiritual
                                                > > wrong is to try to force, or manipulate or truck people into
                                                doing
                                                > > stuff they don't believe in.
                                                >
                                                > What then, are we to make of: "Remember what I have told you today
                                                > about the three kinds of consciousness; remember that it is a
                                                disease
                                                > if we are an atheist, if we do not find the God out of whom we are
                                                > born and whom we must find if we possess a completely sound
                                                organism;
                                                > that it is a misfortune if we do not find Christ; that it is a
                                                psychic
                                                > deficiency if we do not find the spirit."?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > Personally, I don't think that having the "right" set of beliefs
                                                does
                                                > > anything for anyone, by itself. The essentials are possibly (not
                                                sure)
                                                > > the right practices and a healthy inner state, something that
                                                everyone
                                                > > can strive for and, of course, none of us ever achieve.
                                                >
                                                > I'd agree with that...I just don't think there's a spiritual
                                                > equivalence in your enumeration...for example, back in the days a
                                                > marauding Bedouin converts to Islam...that doesn't mean everything
                                                is
                                                > now hunky-dory...but it is a step up
                                                > >
                                                > > I hope you find light on your path.
                                                > > DeborahK
                                                >
                                                > And you, Deborah....G.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Deborah: You'll read my posting to Sister Jo...I'd appreciate
                                                your
                                                > > > input...specifically, Steiner's indication about the
                                                Incarnation and
                                                > > > its relevance to modern paganism...G.
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • write3chairs
                                                ... Whatcha got aigeenst Dibra, ye swine? ... G.
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Aug 14, 2007
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                                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58" wrote:

                                                  > Joost becuz Dibra seems ta be a noice parson...doosn't mean ye moost
                                                  > agree with har...ye bluddy eejit...D.

                                                  Whatcha got aigeenst Dibra, ye swine? ... G.
                                                • write3chairs
                                                  ... I m not Deborah (shock!) but venture to suggest she might have been saying ya kin loid a hoise ta watta bit yoi cinn t mekkim droink. In plain English, you
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Aug 14, 2007
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                                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58" wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Human freedom. Steiner's indications about the
                                                    > > Incarnation describe a spiritual event, a cosmic
                                                    > > event. Some human beings see this as central and
                                                    > > can build their religious or spiritual lives working
                                                    > > with this, others, no, doesn't work for them. So what?
                                                    >
                                                    > Wouldn't you agree, Deborah, that Steiner did not say
                                                    > the Incarnation was A cosmic event...he said it was,
                                                    > THE cosmic event.

                                                    I'm not Deborah (shock!) but venture to suggest she
                                                    might have been saying ya kin loid a hoise ta watta
                                                    bit yoi cinn't mekkim droink. In plain English, you
                                                    can point the way to something but it's up to the
                                                    individual to walk in that direction and see for
                                                    himself. In fact, some people insist upon walking
                                                    their own way. Take this guy, for example:
                                                    http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cp2ZhhTBnKM

                                                    Cheers,
                                                    Jennifer, a.k.a. Auntie Gin
                                                  • doybia
                                                    Who y all talkin aboot? Ther ain t no Dibra nor Debra roundabouts! DeborahK PS Don t mind if you make fun of me, but do spell my name right, pleaseeeeee! ...
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Aug 14, 2007
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                                                      Who y'all talkin' aboot? Ther ain't no Dibra nor Debra roundabouts!
                                                      DeborahK

                                                      PS Don't mind if you make fun of me, but do spell my name right,
                                                      pleaseeeeee!

                                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs"
                                                      <write3chairs@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58" wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > Joost becuz Dibra seems ta be a noice parson...doosn't mean ye
                                                      moost
                                                      > > agree with har...ye bluddy eejit...D.
                                                      >
                                                      > Whatcha got aigeenst Dibra, ye swine? ... G.
                                                      >
                                                    • gaelman58
                                                      ... Tis true Oim a swoine...and ye knew thet from the git-go, didn t ye? ...knowin full well thet Oim the kinda boyo who d take great pleasure in rootin
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Aug 14, 2007
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                                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs"
                                                        <write3chairs@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58" wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Human freedom. Steiner's indications about the
                                                        > > > Incarnation describe a spiritual event, a cosmic
                                                        > > > event. Some human beings see this as central and
                                                        > > > can build their religious or spiritual lives working
                                                        > > > with this, others, no, doesn't work for them. So what?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Wouldn't you agree, Deborah, that Steiner did not say
                                                        > > the Incarnation was A cosmic event...he said it was,
                                                        > > THE cosmic event.
                                                        >
                                                        > I'm not Deborah (shock!) but venture to suggest she
                                                        > might have been saying ya kin loid a hoise ta watta
                                                        > bit yoi cinn't mekkim droink. In plain English, you
                                                        > can point the way to something but it's up to the
                                                        > individual to walk in that direction and see for
                                                        > himself. In fact, some people insist upon walking
                                                        > their own way. Take this guy, for example:
                                                        > http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cp2ZhhTBnKM
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers,
                                                        > Jennifer, a.k.a. Auntie Gin
                                                        >

                                                        Tis true Oim a swoine...and ye knew thet from the git-go, didn't
                                                        ye? ...knowin' full well thet Oim the kinda boyo who'd take great
                                                        pleasure in rootin' around in yer swate business.

                                                        That being said...you're also of a bit of a smarty-pantses making
                                                        out now and again that you don't quite get what's going on...the
                                                        AT's resident female Puck...I liked your analogy
                                                        above...but....water's water...especially when it's living, eh?

                                                        I once saw the Monty Python guys in interview...they said they were
                                                        inspired by a group called the Goonies led by Spike Mulligan...I
                                                        copy something of his when with little children...you point
                                                        emphatically and ask excitedly, "What's that? What's that?"...they
                                                        look...then you hold up the digit and announce authoritatively..."A
                                                        fin-gah!"...they love it....D.
                                                      • gaelman58
                                                        Means bee in Hebrew, doesn t it?....G.
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Aug 14, 2007
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                                                          Means "bee" in Hebrew, doesn't it?....G.


                                                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "doybia" <doybia@...>
                                                          wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Who y'all talkin' aboot? Ther ain't no Dibra nor Debra roundabouts!
                                                          > DeborahK
                                                          >
                                                          > PS Don't mind if you make fun of me, but do spell my name right,
                                                          > pleaseeeeee!
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs"
                                                          > <write3chairs@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58" wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > > Joost becuz Dibra seems ta be a noice parson...doosn't mean ye
                                                          > moost
                                                          > > > agree with har...ye bluddy eejit...D.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Whatcha got aigeenst Dibra, ye swine? ... G.
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                        • write3chairs
                                                          ... Hello, my dear naughty boy! You give me far too much credit, sweet one. But thank you for such exceedingly high regard for it lightens my load, puts a
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Aug 15, 2007
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                                                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58" wrote:

                                                            > Tis true Oim a swoine...and ye knew thet from the git-go, didn't
                                                            > ye? ...knowin' full well thet Oim the kinda boyo who'd take great
                                                            > pleasure in rootin' around in yer swate business.
                                                            >
                                                            > That being said...you're also of a bit of a smarty-pantses making
                                                            > out now and again that you don't quite get what's going on...the
                                                            > AT's resident female Puck...I liked your analogy
                                                            > above...but....water's water...especially when it's living, eh?
                                                            >
                                                            > I once saw the Monty Python guys in interview...they said they were
                                                            > inspired by a group called the Goonies led by Spike Mulligan...I
                                                            > copy something of his when with little children...you point
                                                            > emphatically and ask excitedly, "What's that? What's that?"...they
                                                            > look...then you hold up the digit and announce authoritatively..."A
                                                            > fin-gah!"...they love it....D.

                                                            Hello, my dear naughty boy! You give me far too much credit, sweet
                                                            one. But thank you for such exceedingly high regard for it lightens
                                                            my load, puts a spring in my step, aye yes ... it is wind for my
                                                            sails!

                                                            That said, I have a splitting headache today and thus wish not to
                                                            think too terribly much.

                                                            I came here to share something with you and all the other fine folks,
                                                            a thing a friend sent me, plus a quote that was on the string of my
                                                            teabag earlier today.

                                                            Here's the quote, by Moshe Dayan (1915-1981): "If you want to make
                                                            peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."

                                                            The other thing, below. Will return later. Auntie Gin needs to rest.


                                                            PRONOIA'S VILLAINS

                                                            According to Argentinian writer Jorge Luis Borges, Judas was actually
                                                            a more exalted hero than Jesus. He unselfishly volunteered to perform
                                                            the all-important villain's role in the resurrection saga, knowing
                                                            he'd be reviled forever. It was a dirty job that only a supremely
                                                            egoless saint could have done. Jesus suffered, true, but enjoyed
                                                            glory and adoration as a result.

                                                            Let's apply this way of thinking to the task of understanding the
                                                            role that seemingly bad people play in pronoia.

                                                            Interesting narratives play an essential role in the universal
                                                            conspiracy to give us exactly what we need. All of us crave drama. We
                                                            love to be beguiled by twists of fate that unfold the stories of our
                                                            lives in unpredictable ways. Just as Judas played a key role in
                                                            advancing the tale of Christ's quest, villains and con men and clowns
                                                            may be crucial to the entertainment value of our personal journeys.

                                                            Try this: Imagine the people you fear and dislike as pivotal
                                                            characters in a fascinating and ultimately redemptive plot that will
                                                            take years or even lifetimes for the Divine Wow to elaborate.

                                                            *

                                                            There is another reason to love our enemies: They force us to become
                                                            smarter. The riddles they thrust in front of us sharpen our wits and
                                                            sculpt our souls.

                                                            Try this: Act as if your adversaries are great teachers. Thank them
                                                            for how crucial they've been in your education.

                                                            *

                                                            Consider one more possibility: that the people who seem to slow us
                                                            down and hold us back are actually preventing things from happening
                                                            too fast.

                                                            Imagine that the evolution of your life or our culture is like a
                                                            pregnancy: It needs to reach its full term. Just as a child isn't
                                                            ready to be born after five months of gestation, the new world we're
                                                            creating has to ripen in its own time. The recalcitrant reactionaries
                                                            who resist the inevitable birth are simply making sure that the far-
                                                            seeing revolutionaries don't conjure the future too suddenly. They
                                                            serve the greater good.
                                                          • Frank Thomas Smith
                                                            ... http://southerncrossreview.org/49/borges-judas-eng.htm Frank
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Aug 16, 2007
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "write3chairs"
                                                              <write3chairs@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > According to Argentinian writer Jorge Luis Borges, Judas was actually
                                                              > a more exalted hero than Jesus. He unselfishly volunteered to perform
                                                              > the all-important villain's role in the resurrection saga, knowing
                                                              > he'd be reviled forever. It was a dirty job that only a supremely
                                                              > egoless saint could have done. Jesus suffered, true, but enjoyed
                                                              > glory and adoration as a result.

                                                              http://southerncrossreview.org/49/borges-judas-eng.htm

                                                              Frank
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