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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Threefold Social Order and Educational Freedom

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  • Frank Smith
    Christine wrote: The Renewal of the Social Organism Twenty Articles From The Newspaper: The Threefold
    Message 1 of 12 , May 27, 2007
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      Christine <golden3000997@...> wrote:
      The Renewal of the Social Organism
      Twenty Articles From
      The Newspaper:
      The Threefold Social Order
      (my emphasis and highlights, obviously, Christine)
      The Threefold Social Order and Educational Freedom
      (snip)
      For anyone who perceives these things clearly, one of the most urgent demands of the times shall be the founding of a human community that will strive with utmost energy to realize the freedom and self-determination of the educational system. Other necessary demands of the times cannot find satisfaction as long as what is proper for this sphere remains unrecognized. It really requires only an unbiased observation of our spiritual life in its present form — in its distraction and disunity, its lack of strength to sustain the human soul — in order to recognize that just this is proper.
      Hi, Christine,
      This is related to your previous post criticizing Waldorf Charter schools. I have a different opinion.When I lived in Germany I liked to critcsize the W-schools there becasue they are subsidized by the state. (The Swiss W-school reprepresentatives present at a conference in Dornach when I did so smiled smugly - perhaps more because the Swiss state does not subsidize private schools.) I have since changed my mind. Look at the W-schools in the U.S. and how much they charge parents. A class from California visited us here in Argentina last year. The teacher told us that the fee is $12,000 a year. (Most of the families in this rural area cannot pay the $600 we charge. ) What I mean is that when the state does not subsidize the schools, they are only for the upper-middle to upper classes.  I have no experience with U.S. Waldorf charter schools, but I agree with the concept, because it seems to be a way that the principles of Waldorf education can reach lower economic levels.  One may say that they are not Waldorf schools if they can't preach anthroposophy. Ok, they can say they are charter schools using the  Waldorf method.  In Steiner's article btw, he doesn't say that all schools must be Waldorf,  only that they be free from political and economic interests and pressure. In European countries, especially Scandinavia, where Waldorf schools are almost 100% financed by the state, they do and say what the want. The problem in the U.S. is, imo, an incorrect interpretation of the Constitution, equating spiritual with the establishment of a national church.
      Frank 



      Frank Thomas Smith
      http://SouthernCrossReview.org


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    • Christine
      ... schools. I have a different opinion.When I lived in Germany I liked to critcsize the W-schools there becasue they are subsidized by the state. (The Swiss
      Message 2 of 12 , May 27, 2007
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        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Frank Smith
        <eltrigal78@...> wrote:

        > Hi, Christine,
        > This is related to your previous post criticizing Waldorf Charter
        schools. I have a different opinion.When I lived in Germany I liked
        to critcsize the W-schools there becasue they are subsidized by the
        state. (The Swiss W-school reprepresentatives present at a
        conference in Dornach when I did so smiled smugly - perhaps more
        because the Swiss state does not subsidize private schools.) I have
        since changed my mind. Look at the W-schools in the U.S. and how
        much they charge parents. A class from California visited us here in
        Argentina last year. The teacher told us that the fee is $12,000 a
        year. (Most of the families in this rural area cannot pay the $600
        we charge. ) What I mean is that when the state does not subsidize
        the schools, they are only for the upper-middle to upper classes. I
        have no experience with U.S. Waldorf charter schools, but I agree
        with the concept, because it seems to be a way that the principles
        of Waldorf education can reach lower economic levels.
        > One may say that they are not Waldorf schools if they can't
        preach anthroposophy. Ok, they can say they are charter schools
        using the Waldorf method. In Steiner's article btw, he doesn't say
        that all schools must be Waldorf, only that they be free from
        political and economic interests and pressure. In European
        countries, especially Scandinavia, where Waldorf schools are almost
        100% financed by the state, they do and say what the want. The
        problem in the U.S. is, imo, an incorrect interpretation of the
        Constitution, equating spiritual with the establishment of a
        national church.
        >
        > Frank
        >

        Hi Frank,

        I understand what you are saying perfectly, and I realize that the
        prohibitive reality of private tuition is exactly what has caused
        the Charter School phenomena.

        I once (long ago) gave a short outline of where I think Waldorf
        Economics should go for the solution to this problem. You were my
        main critic.

        That is why I am trying to work it out more completely as a full
        proposal. But it will take a little more time.

        To me, the Charter School solution is a total (and dangerous) cop-
        out. I believe that there is a more radical, but much more concious
        Threefold Solution.

        More Anon,

        : ) Christine
      • Mike helsher
        ... wrote: The Renewal of the Social Organism ... urgent demands of the times shall be the founding of a human community that
        Message 3 of 12 , May 27, 2007
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          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Frank Smith
          <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Christine <golden3000997@...>
          wrote: The Renewal of the Social
          Organism
          > Twenty Articles From
          > The Newspaper:
          > The Threefold Social Order
          >
          > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA024/English/AP1985/GA024_c04.html
          > (my emphasis and highlights, obviously, Christine)
          > The Threefold Social Order and Educational Freedom
          > (snip)
          >
          >
          > For anyone who perceives these things clearly, one of the most
          urgent demands of the times shall be the founding of a human
          community that will strive with utmost energy to realize the freedom
          and self-determination of the educational system. Other necessary
          demands of the times cannot find satisfaction as long as what is
          proper for this sphere remains unrecognized. It really requires only
          an unbiased observation of our spiritual life in its present form —
          in its distraction and disunity, its lack of strength to sustain the
          human soul — in order to recognize that just this is proper.
          > Hi, Christine,
          > This is related to your previous post criticizing Waldorf Charter
          schools. I have a different opinion.When I lived in Germany I liked
          to critcsize the W-schools there becasue they are subsidized by the
          state. (The Swiss W-school reprepresentatives present at a conference
          in Dornach when I did so smiled smugly - perhaps more because the
          Swiss state does not subsidize private schools.) I have since changed
          my mind. Look at the W-schools in the U.S. and how much they charge
          parents. A class from California visited us here in Argentina last
          year. The teacher told us that the fee is $12,000 a year. (Most of
          the families in this rural area cannot pay the $600 we charge. ) What
          I mean is that when the state does not subsidize the schools, they
          are only for the upper-middle to upper classes. I have no experience
          with U.S. Waldorf charter schools, but I agree with the concept,
          because it seems to be a way that the principles of Waldorf education
          can reach lower economic levels.
          > One may say that they are not Waldorf schools if they can't preach
          anthroposophy. Ok, they can say they are charter schools using the
          Waldorf method. In Steiner's article btw, he doesn't say that all
          schools must be Waldorf, only that they be free from political and
          economic interests and pressure. In European countries, especially
          Scandinavia, where Waldorf schools are almost 100% financed by the
          state, they do and say what the want. The problem in the U.S. is,
          imo, an incorrect interpretation of the Constitution, equating
          spiritual with the establishment of a national church.
          >
          > Frank

          I think I agree with Frank. Our children have been at a WE inspired
          Charter school for the past three years, and I can honestly say that
          they have received some of the spirit of WE, which I know they would
          not have received in any public school.

          We attended our daughters eight grade graduation two nights ago. The
          teacher was in tears having brought them all from the second grade.
          All the parents were in tears when the chronologic slide show was
          shown. There was alot of talk about the unity in the class and how
          amazing it is to people that they really care about each other,
          themselves, and the world. At the dance afterward, all the boys
          actually danced! And, one thing that I liked, was that they got to
          dance to cranking modern music, which most likely would not have
          happened at a private WE school (at least not the one that we
          attended). As usual with WE students, they were happy and present in
          conversation with uninhibited eye contact and emotional maturity that
          always just blows my mind (probly cause I graduated from the Bevis
          and butthead school).

          Dealing with the state testing seems a hag, but there isn't alot of
          pressure. The stupid "no child left behind" law is in my opinion,
          treated almost like the laws that are on the books in Holland that
          prohibit drug use. There is way more freedom than there is conformity
          and personally, I like the mix of WE and the world at large, and I
          feel this school is much more true to the "non-sectarian" ideal.

          Of coarse I'm on the outside looking in, and don't know first hand
          any wrangling that might happen with the state.

          In conversations I've had since we moved to flagstaff, with people
          that attend other schools in the area, I've found that there is a
          general liking of the diversity that has come out of the state
          charter system. It seems to have broken up the entrenched bureaucracy
          of the non-competing public school oligarchy that prevails in states
          without charters.

          Integration is better, for me, than opposition. "if ya can't beat-em,
          join-em"! The way I see it, WE charters are like an anti-biotic in a
          highly infected system.

          I do alot of work for ADOT (Arizona dept of transportation). The
          people that I meet that work there, regularly sigh at some of the
          bureaucracy. They don't always work to the letter of the law.

          In general though, I'd say that they do provide a good service to the
          public, at much less an expense than any for profit organization
          could (the later though might know how to cook the books to make it
          look otherwise).

          Also, the article that I posted recently gives me great hope:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/31179

          Something organic is happening around the world, that can't be
          stopped. There's a Law of polarity at work and those who are capable,
          will think into the solution to the mass of stupidity that governs
          our policies and economics right now.

          I used to be a major anti-corporate, anti-money type. I'm changing.
          I've decided that I can give of my deepest self to where it can make
          the most difference. Middle class America pays the bills. But there's
          a yearning, a vacuum I think, that has been created by the illusion
          of "the American dream" that has reached critical mass. The
          fundamental urge for knowledge is lying just below the surface. Many
          are truly desiring to really think, but have no picture of what that
          might look like, and are not interested, quite naturally I think, in
          joining a wookey religious movement, or giving up the monetary
          accomplishments that they have worked hard for. Yes, some will say
          that it's only about "the money" like I would have not to long ago.
          But I now know that that's a sign of ignorance. Especially when it
          comes to the idea of what money actually is.

          The foundation of Rudolf Steiner's legacy rests upon Thinking. Real
          thinking elevates consciousness. Elevated consciousness reveals the
          karma that we create through our actions. Our actions create our
          results, both individual and communal (think about that one for a
          minuet).

          So my new focus is on teaching corporate America how to really think,
          by giving them a picture of what that might look like. I'm an anti-
          biotic in response to the infection of dead thinking. And of coarse I
          get to learn in the process how to practice what I preach, and
          provide a service that has the potential to earn me quite a bit of
          the green stuff. And why not? if more people like me could provide a
          service that will earn them a substantial amount of the green stuff
          then the world would be a better place, I guarantee it! better me
          than Cheney I think!

          "Problem is that most people think about what they don't want, and
          then wonder why it keeps showing up in their lives".

          "We go to work for satisfaction, we provide service to earn money".

          We all find whatever it is that were looking for. What are you
          looking for?

          Mike
          http://www.michaelhelsher.lifesuccessconsultants.com/HOME/tabid/5434/D
          efault.aspx
        • Christine
          Hi Mike! Sorry, but I think you are giving an off the cuff response. Have you taken the time to watch, read and think about the material that I have posted?
          Message 4 of 12 , May 27, 2007
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            Hi Mike!

            Sorry, but I think you are giving an "off the cuff" response.

            Have you taken the time to watch, read and think about the material
            that I have posted?

            I know that the first response must be defensive on the part of
            anyone who has been involved with the Waldorf charter school
            experience. But your nice, "touchy-feely", "Oh, we are just as
            loving and caring as any other Waldorf School." examples don't cut
            it.

            I would be more interested in a defense of the charter school
            movement by someone who has really examined what I brought and who
            can speak of the situation more concretely.

            With respect,

            Christine


            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher"
            <mhelsher@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Frank Smith
            > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Christine <golden3000997@>
            > wrote: The Renewal of the Social
            > Organism
            > > Twenty Articles From
            > > The Newspaper:
            > > The Threefold Social Order
            > >
            > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA024/English/AP1985/GA024_c04.html
            > > (my emphasis and highlights, obviously, Christine)
            > > The Threefold Social Order and Educational Freedom
            > > (snip)
            > >
            > >
            > > For anyone who perceives these things clearly, one of the most
            > urgent demands of the times shall be the founding of a human
            > community that will strive with utmost energy to realize the
            freedom
            > and self-determination of the educational system. Other necessary
            > demands of the times cannot find satisfaction as long as what is
            > proper for this sphere remains unrecognized. It really requires
            only
            > an unbiased observation of our spiritual life in its present form —

            > in its distraction and disunity, its lack of strength to sustain
            the
            > human soul — in order to recognize that just this is proper.
            > > Hi, Christine,
            > > This is related to your previous post criticizing Waldorf
            Charter
            > schools. I have a different opinion.When I lived in Germany I
            liked
            > to critcsize the W-schools there becasue they are subsidized by
            the
            > state. (The Swiss W-school reprepresentatives present at a
            conference
            > in Dornach when I did so smiled smugly - perhaps more because the
            > Swiss state does not subsidize private schools.) I have since
            changed
            > my mind. Look at the W-schools in the U.S. and how much they
            charge
            > parents. A class from California visited us here in Argentina last
            > year. The teacher told us that the fee is $12,000 a year. (Most of
            > the families in this rural area cannot pay the $600 we charge. )
            What
            > I mean is that when the state does not subsidize the schools, they
            > are only for the upper-middle to upper classes. I have no
            experience
            > with U.S. Waldorf charter schools, but I agree with the concept,
            > because it seems to be a way that the principles of Waldorf
            education
            > can reach lower economic levels.
            > > One may say that they are not Waldorf schools if they can't
            preach
            > anthroposophy. Ok, they can say they are charter schools using
            the
            > Waldorf method. In Steiner's article btw, he doesn't say that all
            > schools must be Waldorf, only that they be free from political
            and
            > economic interests and pressure. In European countries, especially
            > Scandinavia, where Waldorf schools are almost 100% financed by the
            > state, they do and say what the want. The problem in the U.S. is,
            > imo, an incorrect interpretation of the Constitution, equating
            > spiritual with the establishment of a national church.
            > >
            > > Frank
            >
            > I think I agree with Frank. Our children have been at a WE
            inspired
            > Charter school for the past three years, and I can honestly say
            that
            > they have received some of the spirit of WE, which I know they
            would
            > not have received in any public school.
            >
            > We attended our daughters eight grade graduation two nights ago.
            The
            > teacher was in tears having brought them all from the second
            grade.
            > All the parents were in tears when the chronologic slide show was
            > shown. There was alot of talk about the unity in the class and how
            > amazing it is to people that they really care about each other,
            > themselves, and the world. At the dance afterward, all the boys
            > actually danced! And, one thing that I liked, was that they got to
            > dance to cranking modern music, which most likely would not have
            > happened at a private WE school (at least not the one that we
            > attended). As usual with WE students, they were happy and present
            in
            > conversation with uninhibited eye contact and emotional maturity
            that
            > always just blows my mind (probly cause I graduated from the Bevis
            > and butthead school).
            >
            > Dealing with the state testing seems a hag, but there isn't alot
            of
            > pressure. The stupid "no child left behind" law is in my opinion,
            > treated almost like the laws that are on the books in Holland that
            > prohibit drug use. There is way more freedom than there is
            conformity
            > and personally, I like the mix of WE and the world at large, and I
            > feel this school is much more true to the "non-sectarian" ideal.
            >
            > Of coarse I'm on the outside looking in, and don't know first hand
            > any wrangling that might happen with the state.
            >
            > In conversations I've had since we moved to flagstaff, with people
            > that attend other schools in the area, I've found that there is a
            > general liking of the diversity that has come out of the state
            > charter system. It seems to have broken up the entrenched
            bureaucracy
            > of the non-competing public school oligarchy that prevails in
            states
            > without charters.
            >
            > Integration is better, for me, than opposition. "if ya can't beat-
            em,
            > join-em"! The way I see it, WE charters are like an anti-biotic in
            a
            > highly infected system.
            >
            > I do alot of work for ADOT (Arizona dept of transportation). The
            > people that I meet that work there, regularly sigh at some of the
            > bureaucracy. They don't always work to the letter of the law.
            >
            > In general though, I'd say that they do provide a good service to
            the
            > public, at much less an expense than any for profit organization
            > could (the later though might know how to cook the books to make
            it
            > look otherwise).
            >
            > Also, the article that I posted recently gives me great hope:
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/31179
            >
            > Something organic is happening around the world, that can't be
            > stopped. There's a Law of polarity at work and those who are
            capable,
            > will think into the solution to the mass of stupidity that governs
            > our policies and economics right now.
            >
            > I used to be a major anti-corporate, anti-money type. I'm
            changing.
            > I've decided that I can give of my deepest self to where it can
            make
            > the most difference. Middle class America pays the bills. But
            there's
            > a yearning, a vacuum I think, that has been created by the
            illusion
            > of "the American dream" that has reached critical mass. The
            > fundamental urge for knowledge is lying just below the surface.
            Many
            > are truly desiring to really think, but have no picture of what
            that
            > might look like, and are not interested, quite naturally I think,
            in
            > joining a wookey religious movement, or giving up the monetary
            > accomplishments that they have worked hard for. Yes, some will say
            > that it's only about "the money" like I would have not to long
            ago.
            > But I now know that that's a sign of ignorance. Especially when it
            > comes to the idea of what money actually is.
            >
            > The foundation of Rudolf Steiner's legacy rests upon Thinking.
            Real
            > thinking elevates consciousness. Elevated consciousness reveals
            the
            > karma that we create through our actions. Our actions create our
            > results, both individual and communal (think about that one for a
            > minuet).
            >
            > So my new focus is on teaching corporate America how to really
            think,
            > by giving them a picture of what that might look like. I'm an anti-
            > biotic in response to the infection of dead thinking. And of
            coarse I
            > get to learn in the process how to practice what I preach, and
            > provide a service that has the potential to earn me quite a bit of
            > the green stuff. And why not? if more people like me could provide
            a
            > service that will earn them a substantial amount of the green
            stuff
            > then the world would be a better place, I guarantee it! better me
            > than Cheney I think!
            >
            > "Problem is that most people think about what they don't want, and
            > then wonder why it keeps showing up in their lives".
            >
            > "We go to work for satisfaction, we provide service to earn money".
            >
            > We all find whatever it is that were looking for. What are you
            > looking for?
            >
            > Mike
            >
            http://www.michaelhelsher.lifesuccessconsultants.com/HOME/tabid/5434/
            D
            > efault.aspx
            >
          • Mike helsher
            ... well maybe but you gotta admit that there s alot on my cuff, so to speak... ... some, but i ll try to look deeper when I can. ... I don t wanna defend it,
            Message 5 of 12 , May 27, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Christine"
              <golden3000997@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Mike!
              >
              > Sorry, but I think you are giving an "off the cuff" response.

              well maybe but you gotta admit that there's alot on my cuff, so to
              speak...
              >
              > Have you taken the time to watch, read and think about the material
              > that I have posted?

              some, but i'll try to look deeper when I can.

              >
              > I know that the first response must be defensive on the part of
              > anyone who has been involved with the Waldorf charter school
              > experience. But your nice, "touchy-feely", "Oh, we are just as
              > loving and caring as any other Waldorf School." examples don't cut
              > it.

              I don't wanna defend it, as much as share my experience. certainly
              room for improvement.

              >
              > I would be more interested in a defense of the charter school
              > movement by someone who has really examined what I brought and who
              > can speak of the situation more concretely.

              Cristine, there has been lately alot of posts on the Waldorf SJU list
              on this very topic. More posts in the last week than I've seen in the
              last year. I think you should bring you work there if you want some
              really good feedback.
              >
              > With respect,

              mee too...:)

              Mike
              >
              > Christine
              >
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher"
              > <mhelsher@> wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Frank Smith
              > > <eltrigal78@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Christine <golden3000997@>
              > > wrote: The Renewal of the
              Social
              > > Organism
              > > > Twenty Articles From
              > > > The Newspaper:
              > > > The Threefold Social Order
              > > >
              > > >
              http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA024/English/AP1985/GA024_c04.html
              > > > (my emphasis and highlights, obviously, Christine)
              > > > The Threefold Social Order and Educational Freedom
              > > > (snip)
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > For anyone who perceives these things clearly, one of the most
              > > urgent demands of the times shall be the founding of a human
              > > community that will strive with utmost energy to realize the
              > freedom
              > > and self-determination of the educational system. Other necessary
              > > demands of the times cannot find satisfaction as long as what is
              > > proper for this sphere remains unrecognized. It really requires
              > only
              > > an unbiased observation of our spiritual life in its present
              form —
              >
              > > in its distraction and disunity, its lack of strength to sustain
              > the
              > > human soul — in order to recognize that just this is proper.
              > > > Hi, Christine,
              > > > This is related to your previous post criticizing Waldorf
              > Charter
              > > schools. I have a different opinion.When I lived in Germany I
              > liked
              > > to critcsize the W-schools there becasue they are subsidized by
              > the
              > > state. (The Swiss W-school reprepresentatives present at a
              > conference
              > > in Dornach when I did so smiled smugly - perhaps more because the
              > > Swiss state does not subsidize private schools.) I have since
              > changed
              > > my mind. Look at the W-schools in the U.S. and how much they
              > charge
              > > parents. A class from California visited us here in Argentina
              last
              > > year. The teacher told us that the fee is $12,000 a year. (Most
              of
              > > the families in this rural area cannot pay the $600 we charge. )
              > What
              > > I mean is that when the state does not subsidize the schools,
              they
              > > are only for the upper-middle to upper classes. I have no
              > experience
              > > with U.S. Waldorf charter schools, but I agree with the concept,
              > > because it seems to be a way that the principles of Waldorf
              > education
              > > can reach lower economic levels.
              > > > One may say that they are not Waldorf schools if they can't
              > preach
              > > anthroposophy. Ok, they can say they are charter schools using
              > the
              > > Waldorf method. In Steiner's article btw, he doesn't say that
              all
              > > schools must be Waldorf, only that they be free from political
              > and
              > > economic interests and pressure. In European countries,
              especially
              > > Scandinavia, where Waldorf schools are almost 100% financed by
              the
              > > state, they do and say what the want. The problem in the U.S. is,
              > > imo, an incorrect interpretation of the Constitution, equating
              > > spiritual with the establishment of a national church.
              > > >
              > > > Frank
              > >
              > > I think I agree with Frank. Our children have been at a WE
              > inspired
              > > Charter school for the past three years, and I can honestly say
              > that
              > > they have received some of the spirit of WE, which I know they
              > would
              > > not have received in any public school.
              > >
              > > We attended our daughters eight grade graduation two nights ago.
              > The
              > > teacher was in tears having brought them all from the second
              > grade.
              > > All the parents were in tears when the chronologic slide show was
              > > shown. There was alot of talk about the unity in the class and
              how
              > > amazing it is to people that they really care about each other,
              > > themselves, and the world. At the dance afterward, all the boys
              > > actually danced! And, one thing that I liked, was that they got
              to
              > > dance to cranking modern music, which most likely would not have
              > > happened at a private WE school (at least not the one that we
              > > attended). As usual with WE students, they were happy and present
              > in
              > > conversation with uninhibited eye contact and emotional maturity
              > that
              > > always just blows my mind (probly cause I graduated from the
              Bevis
              > > and butthead school).
              > >
              > > Dealing with the state testing seems a hag, but there isn't alot
              > of
              > > pressure. The stupid "no child left behind" law is in my opinion,
              > > treated almost like the laws that are on the books in Holland
              that
              > > prohibit drug use. There is way more freedom than there is
              > conformity
              > > and personally, I like the mix of WE and the world at large, and
              I
              > > feel this school is much more true to the "non-sectarian" ideal.
              > >
              > > Of coarse I'm on the outside looking in, and don't know first
              hand
              > > any wrangling that might happen with the state.
              > >
              > > In conversations I've had since we moved to flagstaff, with
              people
              > > that attend other schools in the area, I've found that there is a
              > > general liking of the diversity that has come out of the state
              > > charter system. It seems to have broken up the entrenched
              > bureaucracy
              > > of the non-competing public school oligarchy that prevails in
              > states
              > > without charters.
              > >
              > > Integration is better, for me, than opposition. "if ya can't beat-
              > em,
              > > join-em"! The way I see it, WE charters are like an anti-biotic
              in
              > a
              > > highly infected system.
              > >
              > > I do alot of work for ADOT (Arizona dept of transportation). The
              > > people that I meet that work there, regularly sigh at some of the
              > > bureaucracy. They don't always work to the letter of the law.
              > >
              > > In general though, I'd say that they do provide a good service to
              > the
              > > public, at much less an expense than any for profit organization
              > > could (the later though might know how to cook the books to make
              > it
              > > look otherwise).
              > >
              > > Also, the article that I posted recently gives me great hope:
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/31179
              > >
              > > Something organic is happening around the world, that can't be
              > > stopped. There's a Law of polarity at work and those who are
              > capable,
              > > will think into the solution to the mass of stupidity that
              governs
              > > our policies and economics right now.
              > >
              > > I used to be a major anti-corporate, anti-money type. I'm
              > changing.
              > > I've decided that I can give of my deepest self to where it can
              > make
              > > the most difference. Middle class America pays the bills. But
              > there's
              > > a yearning, a vacuum I think, that has been created by the
              > illusion
              > > of "the American dream" that has reached critical mass. The
              > > fundamental urge for knowledge is lying just below the surface.
              > Many
              > > are truly desiring to really think, but have no picture of what
              > that
              > > might look like, and are not interested, quite naturally I think,
              > in
              > > joining a wookey religious movement, or giving up the monetary
              > > accomplishments that they have worked hard for. Yes, some will
              say
              > > that it's only about "the money" like I would have not to long
              > ago.
              > > But I now know that that's a sign of ignorance. Especially when
              it
              > > comes to the idea of what money actually is.
              > >
              > > The foundation of Rudolf Steiner's legacy rests upon Thinking.
              > Real
              > > thinking elevates consciousness. Elevated consciousness reveals
              > the
              > > karma that we create through our actions. Our actions create our
              > > results, both individual and communal (think about that one for a
              > > minuet).
              > >
              > > So my new focus is on teaching corporate America how to really
              > think,
              > > by giving them a picture of what that might look like. I'm an
              anti-
              > > biotic in response to the infection of dead thinking. And of
              > coarse I
              > > get to learn in the process how to practice what I preach, and
              > > provide a service that has the potential to earn me quite a bit
              of
              > > the green stuff. And why not? if more people like me could
              provide
              > a
              > > service that will earn them a substantial amount of the green
              > stuff
              > > then the world would be a better place, I guarantee it! better me
              > > than Cheney I think!
              > >
              > > "Problem is that most people think about what they don't want,
              and
              > > then wonder why it keeps showing up in their lives".
              > >
              > > "We go to work for satisfaction, we provide service to earn
              money".
              > >
              > > We all find whatever it is that were looking for. What are you
              > > looking for?
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              >
              http://www.michaelhelsher.lifesuccessconsultants.com/HOME/tabid/5434/
              > D
              > > efault.aspx
              > >
              >
            • Christine
              Ahhh, I guess there HAS been a reason I haven t been writing to this group. ... list ... the ... some
              Message 6 of 12 , May 27, 2007
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                Ahhh, I guess there HAS been a reason I haven't been writing to this
                group.


                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher"
                <mhelsher@...> wrote:
                >
                > Cristine, there has been lately alot of posts on the Waldorf SJU
                list
                > on this very topic. More posts in the last week than I've seen in
                the
                > last year. I think you should bring you work there if you want
                some
                > really good feedback.
                > >
                > > With respect,
                >
                > mee too...:)
                >
                > Mike
                > >
                > > Christine
              • dottie zold
                Hey Everyone, I am thinking more along the line of Frank and I understand the concern of Christine. And I was thinking that it s just funny how things move in
                Message 7 of 12 , May 27, 2007
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                  Hey Everyone,

                  I am thinking more along the line of Frank and I
                  understand the concern of Christine.

                  And I was thinking that it's just funny how things
                  move in the world. We can think that something is bad
                  or evil or a part of the dark brotherhoods and then
                  when we see that it was a necessary part of the karma
                  of what needs to happen before hand to wake people up
                  to their choices we may have a better understanding of
                  how and why things have unfolded the way they have.

                  It is my experience, time and time again, that at
                  first it can look stark. (if we are looking at what
                  Christine says we can see 'holy cow, how are we coming
                  under a state control thinking when it is the very
                  thing Rudolf Steiner warned about') Yet at the same
                  time what I am experiencing, even with the war, is
                  that the spiritual worlds will take us to strange and
                  far out places in order for the evolutionary work of
                  mankind to move to the place it needs to move to. And
                  in the beginning we can call 'evil this and evil that'
                  and then we can look at how people are waking up. And
                  then we can ask 'was that needed' 'did we need to have
                  that experience in order to understand greater the
                  nitty gritty of how the political machineray can
                  operate'?

                  It seems to me that throughout this whole process of
                  the Bush administration, we have been taken into the
                  inner workings of the political machinery: from the
                  pentagon, to the judicial political appointess etc. I
                  mean it doesn't usually ocurr to the regular person
                  that these behind the scenes machinations really
                  occur, but they do. And in that this whole dragging us
                  down into the mud has really served a greater purpose
                  of waking up the understanding of how really
                  manipulative this system is, no matter who is in
                  charge. And then the American people get to ask
                  themselves what they want to do to have it change. Do
                  they feel a need to have a change.

                  It seems to me that through what looked like
                  devestating years of this administration, a good hand
                  of the angels can be seen. And it seems to me that the
                  same thing is going to be said for Waldorf and other
                  alternative schooling. That although it looks like
                  they have agreed to come under some type of state
                  control, what is really happening is that people are
                  choosing a different schooling system and it will be
                  the downfall of 'no child left behind'. That maybe if
                  Waldorf was not in the mix we would be moving full
                  steam ahead. But I have a funny feeling that that ship
                  has just run out of steam. And its right on time.

                  All good things,
                  Dottie
                  --- Christine <golden3000997@...> wrote:

                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Frank
                  > Smith
                  > <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi, Christine,
                  > > This is related to your previous post criticizing
                  > Waldorf Charter
                  > schools. I have a different opinion.When I lived in
                  > Germany I liked
                  > to critcsize the W-schools there becasue they are
                  > subsidized by the
                  > state. (The Swiss W-school reprepresentatives
                  > present at a
                  > conference in Dornach when I did so smiled smugly -
                  > perhaps more
                  > because the Swiss state does not subsidize private
                  > schools.) I have
                  > since changed my mind. Look at the W-schools in the
                  > U.S. and how
                  > much they charge parents. A class from California
                  > visited us here in
                  > Argentina last year. The teacher told us that the
                  > fee is $12,000 a
                  > year. (Most of the families in this rural area
                  > cannot pay the $600
                  > we charge. ) What I mean is that when the state does
                  > not subsidize
                  > the schools, they are only for the upper-middle to
                  > upper classes. I
                  > have no experience with U.S. Waldorf charter
                  > schools, but I agree
                  > with the concept, because it seems to be a way that
                  > the principles
                  > of Waldorf education can reach lower economic
                  > levels.
                  > > One may say that they are not Waldorf schools if
                  > they can't
                  > preach anthroposophy. Ok, they can say they are
                  > charter schools
                  > using the Waldorf method. In Steiner's article
                  > btw, he doesn't say
                  > that all schools must be Waldorf, only that they be
                  > free from
                  > political and economic interests and pressure. In
                  > European
                  > countries, especially Scandinavia, where Waldorf
                  > schools are almost
                  > 100% financed by the state, they do and say what the
                  > want. The
                  > problem in the U.S. is, imo, an incorrect
                  > interpretation of the
                  > Constitution, equating spiritual with the
                  > establishment of a
                  > national church.
                  > >
                  > > Frank
                  > >
                  >
                  > Hi Frank,
                  >
                  > I understand what you are saying perfectly, and I
                  > realize that the
                  > prohibitive reality of private tuition is exactly
                  > what has caused
                  > the Charter School phenomena.
                  >
                  > I once (long ago) gave a short outline of where I
                  > think Waldorf
                  > Economics should go for the solution to this
                  > problem. You were my
                  > main critic.
                  >
                  > That is why I am trying to work it out more
                  > completely as a full
                  > proposal. But it will take a little more time.
                  >
                  > To me, the Charter School solution is a total (and
                  > dangerous) cop-
                  > out. I believe that there is a more radical, but
                  > much more concious
                  > Threefold Solution.
                  >
                  > More Anon,
                  >
                  > : ) Christine
                  >
                  >



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                • Mike helsher
                  ... this ... ahhh... what? It s so easy to misread on these e-lists. I didn t mean that you wont get feed-back here. Nor did I mean to brush you off either.
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 27, 2007
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                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Christine"
                    <golden3000997@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ahhh, I guess there HAS been a reason I haven't been writing to
                    this
                    > group.

                    ahhh... what? It's so easy to misread on these e-lists. I didn't mean
                    that you wont get feed-back here. Nor did I mean to brush you off
                    either. It's just that the discussion on the other list (which has I
                    think around 1200 members) has been rich and deep and on the same
                    subject with many people participating.

                    If your going to take it so personally your going to get hurt, plain
                    and simple.

                    I did read enough of your material and I think it good and well that
                    that's your focus. And I Know that you'll do a great job at
                    unearthing truth.

                    Alot of the stuff you had highlighted in the lecture was important,
                    and no doubt applies, to a degree, to our present day. But I feel
                    that it pertains to a much more ridged time and schools that were
                    much more authoritarian, as was the basic family structure back in
                    Germany at the time. Hitler was beaten like alot of children back in
                    those days.

                    Personally I've been "anti-this and anti-that" for far to long and it
                    tends to be a never ending downward spiral for me. It's kind of like
                    the thralls of intellectual argument. I really don't have the stomach
                    for it nor the time right now, as I've got a ton of material to study
                    at the moment.

                    No doubt that the corporate clones and the "pragmatic planners of
                    American empire" are plotting their various nefarious deeds and that
                    they need to be exposed. I've studied Noam Chomsky for years. On the
                    other hand, Love needs to be nurtured and tended to as well. We all
                    cant do everything all at once, so perhaps its good that we have a
                    different focus.

                    Mike
                  • Christine
                    ... that ... important, ... in ... Hi again Mike, What I sent for sharing to this list (People I DO consider my friends!) is just the tip of the iceberg of
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 28, 2007
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                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher"
                      <mhelsher@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I did read enough of your material and I think it good and well
                      that
                      > that's your focus. And I Know that you'll do a great job at
                      > unearthing truth.
                      >
                      > Alot of the stuff you had highlighted in the lecture was
                      important,
                      > and no doubt applies, to a degree, to our present day. But I feel
                      > that it pertains to a much more ridged time and schools that were
                      > much more authoritarian, as was the basic family structure back in
                      > Germany at the time. Hitler was beaten like alot of children back
                      in
                      > those days.
                      >
                      > Mike
                      >
                      Hi again Mike,

                      What I sent for sharing to this list (People I DO consider my
                      friends!) is just the "tip of the iceberg" of information that makes
                      the rigidity, authoritarianism and violence of the pre-Hitler era
                      look soft!

                      I know that you are busy. We all are, believe me. But I really would
                      appreciate it if you would actually watch the videos. Then we could
                      have a much better discussion of how the dots do or do not connect.

                      There is a bumper sticker or T-shirt or just plain slogan in current
                      use, "If you are not scared, you are not paying attention."

                      One of my points, which I would rather y'all make for yourselves, is
                      that the children in whatever kind of charter schools are prime
                      targets. Of what? zealous recruitment by the military, legal doping
                      and "outcome based education" - ie brainwashing - of a depth and
                      quality never before seen.

                      Seeing the ad for Monterey Bay Charter School, with its requirement:

                      "Additionally, you must hold or be qualified for a California
                      teaching credential and be able to meet the requirements for
                      highly qualified teachers under the No Child Left Behind Act."

                      Gave me the proverbial "chills up my spine." I can provide you will
                      many, many internet links and many, many sources of information and
                      quotes regarding the purpose of and dangers of the No Child Left
                      Behind Act. But if you don't have the time to view the three sources
                      I already sent, then there doesn't seem to be much use in sending
                      more.

                      In your first response on this subject you said,

                      "The foundation of Rudolf Steiner's legacy rests upon Thinking. Real
                      thinking elevates consciousness. Elevated consciousness reveals the
                      karma that we create through our actions. Our actions create our
                      results, both individual and communal (think about that one for a
                      minuet)." (I think you mean minute!)

                      I have sent this information in the spirit of Thinking and becoming
                      Concious of what is happening, both to the Waldorf school movement
                      and to all of America's children.

                      Christine

                      * * * * * * *

                      Goal of education to police thinking
                      http://american-genocide.netfirms.com/html/
                      americanstateterrorism/AboutThisSite.html

                      "[The] assumption that it is the aim of the [American] public school
                      to fan the intelligence and to produce large numbers of alert and
                      curious youths of both sexes is foolish. The state maintains its
                      control of elementary education, not primarily to reduce illiteracy
                      and turn the eyes of the plain people toward the stars, but to make
                      sure that they are not taught anything that is subversive.

                      "Public education is thus a police measure. The goal it moves toward
                      is perfect standardization, perfect discipline, perfect imbecility."

                      — H. L. Mencken
                      Baltimore Sun
                      February 23, 1924


                      Schools - propaganda camps
                      Excerpt from Propaganda - nobody does it better than America
                      By Paul Weber, 9th August 2002
                      http://www.thetexasmercury.com/articles/weber/PW20020120.html

                      The role of the government propaganda camps known as public schools
                      cannot be discounted in all this. Schools are not so much centers of
                      learning as they are behavior conditioning camps in which children
                      are taught to be unquestioningly obedient to authority.

                      Since reason and morality are the death of propaganda, schools busy
                      themselves with systematically stunting students' ability to reason
                      and think in moral terms.

                      Because the government owns the propaganda camps, it's not
                      surprising that the beneficiary of the propaganda is almost always
                      the government. Americans accept obvious absurdities because they
                      were drilled into their heads, year after year, in the government
                      propaganda camps until they became true and unquestionable.
                    • write3chairs
                      ... Hi, Dottie and Christine and friends! This is an interesting topic and reminds me of why I don t put much energy into anti movements of any kind at this
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 28, 2007
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                        Dottie wrote:

                        > ... what is really happening is that people are
                        > choosing a different schooling system and it will be
                        > the downfall of 'no child left behind'. That maybe if
                        > Waldorf was not in the mix we would be moving full
                        > steam ahead. But I have a funny feeling that that ship
                        > has just run out of steam. And its right on time.

                        Hi, Dottie and Christine and friends!

                        This is an interesting topic and reminds me of why
                        I don't put much energy into "anti" movements of any
                        kind at this point in time, choosing instead to focus
                        energy on what works rather than on what doesn't.
                        (I am not being critical of anyone here, please know.)
                        Things that don't work tend to fall down on their own,
                        from lack of use, in other words: from neglect.

                        So, I'm not really entering into the debate here, but
                        just sharing another perspective. I appreciate Waldorf
                        education and have practiced it (among other methods)
                        in homeschooling our daughter (from age 5 to 15), and
                        we never accepted any government financial assistance
                        for that. She's now in a state- and parent-funded high
                        school, though, and we welcome the financial help!
                        But I'm also glad we didn't need or want financial
                        help from the government for the homeschooling years.

                        Good things to all,
                        Jennifer

                        > All good things,
                        > Dottie
                      • baymace
                        My opinion? Life has nothing whatsoever to do with being scared, and anyone who doesn t understand that, isn t paying attention ;) By their very presence, all
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 29, 2007
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                          My opinion? Life has nothing whatsoever to do with being scared, and
                          anyone who doesn't understand that, isn't paying attention ;)

                          By their very presence, all Waldorf schools – including Charter
                          schools – aid and assist in the awakening/healing work you are
                          alluding to. I would suggest that your energetic interest in this
                          whole issue would best be spent directed against public education or
                          what have you, rather than Waldorf Charter schools – which, one
                          needs to keep in mind, are in fact Waldorf schools.

                          One more thing: I'm not against public education either. I'm simply
                          suggesting that if you feel so strongly – and from the tone and
                          content of your posts, you appear to be ready to go to battle on
                          behalf of Waldorf education – then take up the sword against the
                          real `enemy'. :)

                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Christine"
                          <golden3000997@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > There is a bumper sticker or T-shirt or just plain slogan in
                          current
                          > use, "If you are not scared, you are not paying attention."
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