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iran iraq oil war

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  • Mike helsher
    Please pass this on! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d_EfHtPZ20&mode=user&search=
    Message 1 of 27 , May 7 5:42 PM
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    • Tarjei Straume
      Thank you for this, Mike. Well, here are a few interesting items I ve pieced together -- some bits and pieces from Democracy Now! :
      Message 2 of 27 , May 7 6:51 PM
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        Thank you for this, Mike.

        Well, here are a few interesting items I've pieced together -- some bits and pieces from "Democracy Now!":


        http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/10/1321236

        PETER EISNER (investigative reporter, The Washington Post -- about the significance of the NYT article in Sept 2002):
        " Well, the piece was quite significant. It comes in the context of a plan that had been hatched in the White House in the summer of 2002. The White House Iraq Group, which was basically a propaganda operation that realized that the one thing that needed to be done to sell the war in Iraq was to not deal with biological weapons, not deal with chemical weapons, but to deal with the fear and threat of a mushroom cloud -- and the purveyors of language specifically said, 'Let's use and start hammering away the idea that a mushroom cloud is on the horizon, that we can't wait until we have firm information, but we have information. We’ve got to act now.' "

        ( I like that phrase, "the purveyors of language" ! )


        About the financing of secret CIA operations in the Middle East, illegal and hidden from Congress -- how they've plundered the Iraqi people:

        http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/28/150251

        SEYMOUR HERSH (The New Yorker):
        "And I think I have to tell you, digress a second to say that I don't know a thing about Bush. I know something about what Cheney thinks, and that is in terms of having some people with firsthand access. And Cheney does believe that -- the core belief of Cheney is that Iran is going to get a bomb, no matter what the intelligence is. As you know, there’s not much intelligence supporting the fact that it has a bomb. Iran’s going to get a bomb, and once it gets a bomb, its agent, its brown shirt -- and that’s the phrase they use at least once or twice inside the White House -- its brown shirts will be Hezbollah. And they have a capacity in America. They have underground facilities, cells here, and when Iran gets the bomb, they will give it to Hezbollah to distribute it, and Washington and New York will be vulnerable. In other words, Cheney sees what’s going on now as a threat to the United States directly. He doesn't view this as simply something that’s happening in Western Europe or the Middle East. He is protecting America by taking a preemptive, a proactive action right now.

        "And so, in Lebanon, once Hariri fell and there was a crisis there, we immediately moved to support any group that was against Nasrallah and Hezbollah. And so, we’ve poured a lot of money, illicit money. It was not authorized by Congress. Money went pouring in there. Former retired CIA guys were put in there. Retired people went in there, other agencies. The funds came, nobody is quite sure where. There’s a lot of pools of black money around, a lot of money. Undoubtedly, some was, I’m told, came from Iraq. That is, as you know, there were hearings the other week that showed $9 billion in Iraqi oil money mysteriously disappeared and was unaccounted for. Some of that money was washed around. There was also a lot of money found after Saddam fell. We found several caches of huge amounts, you know, hundreds of millions, and billions of dollars in some cases, of cash. We also found money in various ministries. There’s no, really, accountability, and a lot of it could have ended up in black pools. It’s just not clear where the money came from, and it’s not supposed to be clear. What you do is you wash the money in. You get it to certain people. The government of Lebanon underwrites its internal security people."


        http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/27/1356250

        REESE ERLICH (independent radio producer and journalist):
        The P.K.K. is the mother organization if you will. It was founded by Oshelan, the Turkish Kurd who is now in jail, charged with terrorism. The P.K.K. by the way, is listed on the United States State Department List of Terrorist Organizations. The P.J.A.K., the Party for Free Life of Kurdistan is the Iranian affiliate. The P.K.K., about two years ago split into four parties in each of the countries where is the Kurds live. In Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran. So the P.J.A.K. is the Iranian affiliate. Basically they're still part of the same organization. In order to get to the P.J.A.K. interviews that I did, you had to go through two P.K.K. based camps with walkie-talkies and soldiers and guerillas and so on. For all intents and purposes they're the same thing.

        AMY GOODMAN: And can you explain the U.S. relationship with these organizations?

        REESE ERLICH: Well, it's very complicated. Because on the one hand, the United States is very much opposes to the P.K.K.'s actions in Turkey. On the other hand they're supporting P.K.K.'s attack on Iran. This is kind of typical of the clandestine efforts by the United States when we saw the U.S. support for the Mujahadeen against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. They sided with some pretty nefarious characters who ended up forming al Qaeda and bombing New York.

        So once again, the U.S. is allying with one faction of this party, but not with the other, playing a very dangerous game and they're playing a very similar game with the Mujahadeen al-Halb, another Iranian group and with groups in Baluchestan which is near the Pakistan Iranian boarder where some revolutionary guard buses were blown up. It's a very very dangerous, duplicitous game that the United States is playing.


        http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/02/1440234

        GEN. WESLEY CLARK (retired 4-star general):
        About ten days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of the generals called me in. He said, “Sir, you’ve got to come in and talk to me a second.” I said, “Well, you’re too busy.” He said, “No, no.” He says, “We’ve made the decision we’re going to war with Iraq.” This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, “We’re going to war with Iraq? Why?” He said, “I don’t know.” He said, “I guess they don’t know what else to do.” So I said, “Well, did they find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?” He said, “No, no.” He says, “There’s nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq.” He said, “I guess it’s like we don’t know what to do about terrorists, but we’ve got a good military and we can take down governments.” And he said, “I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail.”

        So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” -- meaning the Secretary of Defense’s office -- “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.” And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, “You remember that?” He said, “Sir, I didn’t show you that memo! I didn’t show it to you!”

        AMY GOODMAN: I’m sorry. What did you say his name was?

        GEN. WESLEY CLARK: I’m not going to give you his name.

        AMY GOODMAN: So, go through the countries again.

        GEN. WESLEY CLARK: Well, starting with Iraq, then Syria and Lebanon, then Libya, then Somalia and Sudan, and back to Iran.


        http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/31/1546207

        JOHN PERKINS (author of "Concessions of an Economic Hit Man"):
        "Well, Iraq followed Saudi Arabia. After our tremendous success in Saudi Arabia, we decided we should do the same thing in Iraq. And we figured that Saddam Hussein was corruptible. And, of course, we had been involved with Saddam Hussein anyway for some time. And so the economic hit men went in and tried to bring Saddam Hussein around, tried to get him to agree to a deal like the royal House of Saud had agreed to. And he didn't. So, we sent in the jackals to try to overthrow him or to assassinate him. They couldn't. His Republican Guard was too loyal and he had all these doubles. We couldn't do it. So, when the economic hit men and the jackals both failed, then the last line of defense that the United States, the empire, uses these days, is the military. We send in our young men and women to die and to kill, and we did that in Iraq in 1990. We thought Saddam Hussein at that point was sufficiently chastised that now he would come around, so the economic hit men went back in in the 1990s, failed once again. The jackals went back in, failed once again, and so once again the military went in -- the story we all know -- because we couldn't bring him around any other way. Iraq had become very, very important to us for many reasons. Its strategic location, the fact it controls a great deal of the water of the Middle East, the Tigris and Euphrates both flow through and out of Iraq and, of course, its oil. And now we're not so sure we can keep the House of Saud in control. It's become extremely unpopular amongst its own people. Over 100 assassinations this year. We've been recently reading about the U.S. Consulate being attacked in Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud is losing control. It's very unpopular, partly because it accepted this deal with the West. It did a lot like what the Shah of Iran has done. And Osama bin Laden, of course, is very against it. But so are a tremendous number of Muslims around the world. The seat of the Muslim faith, Mecca, is in Saudi Arabia, very upset with what the House of Saud has done. So we've been afraid that we're going to lose the grip on the House of Saud. One way to protect against that is by taking over Iraq oil fields, which may be larger than those in Saudi Arabia. We're not sure exactly how large they are."


        http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/27/1454229

        CHALMERS JOHNSON (former CIA analyst):
        "And then we chose Iraq as the second most oil-rich country on earth, and as a place perfectly suited for our presence. I think many people have commented on it, Seymour Hersh notably, but I think, importantly, one of the reasons we had no exit plan from Iraq is that we didn't intend to leave. And certainly the evidence of it is the now series of at least five very, very large, heavily reinforced, long double runways, five air bases in Iraq, strategically located all over the country. You can never get our ambassador, the Department of Defense, the President, or anybody to say unequivocally we don't intend to have bases there. It's a subject on which Congress never, ever opens its mouth. Occasionally, military officers -- the commander of Air Force in CENTCOM has repeatedly, in his sort of off-hand way, when asked, 'How long do you think we'll be here?' and he usually says, 'Oh, at least a decade in these bases.' And then, we continue to reinforce them."

        Tarjei

        Mike H, you wrote:

        Please pass this on!

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d_EfHtPZ20&mode=user&search=
      • Jean-Marc Nguyen
        Hi, Does the *axis of evil* actually pass through the center of gravity of Anglo-American foreign affairs? World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race.
        Message 3 of 27 , May 8 11:31 AM
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          Hi,
           
          Does the *axis of evil* actually pass through the center of gravity
          of Anglo-American foreign affairs?
           
          "World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race.
          From that direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism.
          It is from England and America that all the discoveries come that will
          cover the Earth like a network of egoism. So it is from there that the
          whole Earth will be covered by a network of egotistic evil."
          [Rudolf Steiner - Berlin, 31 October 1905]
           
           
           
          Jean-Marc
        • gaelman58
          ... Hey Jean Marc: It seems to me that Steiner is taking about technology and the materialistic thinking behind it...that s why he used the terms discoveries
          Message 4 of 27 , May 9 10:14 AM
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Marc Nguyen"
            <jmnguyen@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > Does the *axis of evil* actually pass through the center of gravity
            > of Anglo-American foreign affairs?
            >
            > "World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race.
            > From that direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism.
            > It is from England and America that all the discoveries come that will
            > cover the Earth like a network of egoism. So it is from there that the
            > whole Earth will be covered by a network of egotistic evil."
            > [Rudolf Steiner - Berlin, 31 October 1905]
            >
            > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0093a/19051031p01.html
            >
            >
            > Jean-Marc
            >


            Hey Jean Marc: It seems to me that Steiner is taking about technology
            and the materialistic thinking behind it...that's why he used the
            terms "discoveries come that will cover the earth like a
            network..."...which to my mind is the most significant "contribution"
            of England and America to modern times.

            I don't see where that has anything to do with ideology and
            politics...regards, McCann
          • Jean-Marc Nguyen
            Hi McCann, You wrote: Hey Jean Marc: It seems to me that Steiner is taking about technology and the materialistic thinking behind it...that s why he used the
            Message 5 of 27 , May 14 11:49 AM
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              Hi McCann,
               
              You wrote:
               
              "Hey Jean Marc: It seems to me that Steiner is taking about technology
              and the materialistic thinking behind it...that's why he used the
              terms "discoveries come that will cover the earth like a
              network...". ..which to my mind is the most significant "contribution"
              of England and America to modern times.

              I don't see where that has anything to do with ideology and
              politics...regards, McCann"
               
              --------------------------------------------------------------------
               
              Two preliminary remarks:
               
              1. We must bear in mind that the lectures from the early years [1905]
              are very unfortunately not the exact and [necessarily] complete transcripts
              of Steiner's own words by professional stenographers - as later lectures
              are. They are published on the basis of personal notes from various
              participants, and the notes differ to some extent, in length, quality or
              wording, depending on who wrote them down...
              A tough job for publishers.
               
              2. I quoted Steiner's words in English from the link I posted [rsarchive]
              --- but the original word in the German text is *inventions* [Erfindungen]
              and not *discoveries* [Entdeckungen].
               
              "World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race.
              From that direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism.
              It is from England and America that all the *inventions* come that will
              cover the Earth like a network of egoism. So it is from there that the
              whole Earth will be covered by a network of egoistic evil."
              [Rudolf Steiner - Berlin, 31 October 1905]
               
              The truth is I was expecting such an objection. If my memory serves me
              right, interpretations similar to yours, of the very same passage, came up
              on another list [a-science or a-views] a few years back...As a matter of
              fact, I believe it was Tarjei himself who asked [back then] something like:
              "So, are cell phones egoistic evil?..." [Tarjei, please correct me if I'm
              wrong!]
               
              McCann, do you really think that it is merely with materialistic science
              and technology, with transistors, cell phones, particle accelerators, the
              Internet, and whatnot--- that the Anglo-American world will manage to
              turn the entire surface of our Earth into a network...*of egoistic evil*???
              Could you substantiate your assumption and interpretation of Steiner's
              words convincingly and in concrete terms?
              I do believe that modern *technological* wonders indeed play a role:
              mainly that of ensuring that the Anglo-American *inventions* which I
              believe Steiner is talking about [those which, imo, will eventually lead to
              a network of egoistic evil]  find their way, no matter what the opposition
              is, to the remotest corner of planet Earth.
              If you're wondering what modern technological wonders I'm alluding to
              here: the media :-) for instance, high-tech armament and equipment,
              and [who knows?...] perhaps various weapons of mass destruction as
              a last resort - whatever that means.
               
              Is it not a commonplace that Athens and Ancient Greece *invented*
              democracy? Is not democracy an Athenian or Greek *invention* which
              in the course of centuries and millennia gradually conquered the world?
              In other words, Ancient Greece *invented* a system of government,
              a political system.
               
              What are "all the inventions" coming from England and America Steiner
              is alluding to, imo?
              Not the least offense intended, I assure you McCann!--- but I just can't
              resist quoting Bill Clinton's immortal words: "It's the economy stupid!":-)
               
              Imo, Steiner is referring to whatever means England and America will
              *think up* and have recourse to --- in order to firmly establish, extend,
              promote, secure, and eventually globalize --- the *economic system*
              which will enable England and America to realize the Anglo-American
              *dream* of the essentially egoistic Anglo-American *occult lodges*:
              to take a controlling interest in the economy, natural resources and
              workforce, of the entire planet, and thus secure the preeminent and
              unchallengeable dominating position of England and America on a
              worldwide scale, for many, many centuries!
              According to Steiner, this domination will result in large-scale *economic
              slavery*(sic!) - and the secret intention of the Anglo-American occult
              lodges is to encroach - as much as possible and illegitimately! - on the
              next and 6th sub-race [Slavonic], that of the "true people of Christ"...
               
              To mention some of the *visible* Anglo-American *inventions*: World
              Bank, IMF, GATT, WTO, NATO, etc...
              Wonderful international organizations? Sure. But one crucial question is:
              to what extent are those Anglo-American inventions merely the means to
              promote, establish [ impose!] the Anglo-American agenda of a global
              free market (economy) and to extend Anglo-American hegemony over
              the world?
              The Society of Nations was basically an Anglo-American *invention*.
              And it is under the auspices of its successor, the UN, that *economic*
              sanctions turned out to be a weapon of mass destruction for perhaps
              one million Iraqi children! - with Madeleine Albright's embarrassed and
              yet immortal blessing from 1996: "The price is worth it..."
              Hey, great *economic* metaphor!
              I wonder if Madam Secretary of State was trying to convey her concern
              that, crudely speaking, crude oil was - in fact, priceless nowadays...
               
              Now, apart from the obvious Anglo-American egoistic drives --- what
              does a globalized free market (economy)  have to do with egoism and
              *egoistic evil*?...
               
              Well McCann, I assume you read or looked at Steiner's lecture. Did you
              notice the passage that comes right after the quotation and brings the
              lecture to an end?
               
              "In the Fifth Sub-Race work is performed as a commodity (sold).
              In the Sixth Sub-Race work will be performed as an offering (free work).
              The economic needs of existence will then be separated from work: there
              will be no more personal possession, everything will be owned in common.
              One will no longer work for one's personal existence, but will do
              everything as absolute offering for humanity."
               
              No more personal possession? Everything will be owned in common?
              That really sounds like *true Communism* - doesn't it?...
              The fact is that the 5th and 6th sub-races are polar opposites in this
              respect. As Steiner puts it [in this very same lecture], in the 6th sub-race,
              in the Slavonic sub-race: "... for the first time Christianity will come forth
              as shaper of the social order." He means - of course! - that the impulse
              of Christ [read: Brotherhood] will then [and only then...] become a real
              vital force, a real *formative force* within the social body.
               
              Whereas Judas - who betrays Christ - is a tragic symbol of our 5th
              sub-race or *Consciousness Soul Age* [I mentioned this fact before,
              and it has many facets].
              Why, for instance, do you think the earned income of a cleaning lady is
              ridiculously and shamefully low compared with that of her employer
              [a lawyer, a surgeon, a movie star - for instance]?
              Why are the living standards of their respective families so incredibly
              different? Why does such unfairness pass for a perhaps regrettable and
              yet inevitable pseudo-natural law governing our social order?
              For the very simple reason that *egoism* is the governing shaper of
              the present social order --- where the satisfaction of one's "economic
              needs of existence" entirely depends on the dehumanized and pure
              *marketable value* of the work one is able to offer to the community.
              From this perspective, it is perfectly clear that, in a social order where
              the economic needs of existence are*not* separated from work, the
              globalization of free market (economy) will necessarily result in human
              beings worldwide being condemned to survive and live their entire life
              as egoists among egoists...
              This, imo, is the "network of egoistic evil" Steiner is talking about.
               
              If one looks at our planet Earth as the cosmic body of Christ, it seems
              our 5th sub-race will manage to drape Love in *egoistic evil*...
               
              And, in this context, I'll repeat myself:
              "Does the *axis of evil* actually pass through the center of gravity
              of Anglo-American foreign affairs?"
               
              Regards,
              Jean-Marc
               
            • Tarjei Straume
              ... The cell phone remark wasn t mine, and I don t remember it at all, but your quote from GA # 93a (Foundations of Esotericism) at the end of Lecture 28
              Message 6 of 27 , May 14 1:15 PM
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                Jean-Marc, you wrote:

                >If my memory serves me right, interpretations similar to yours, of
                >the very same passage, came up on another list [a-science or
                >a-views] a few years back...As a matter of fact, I believe it was
                >Tarjei himself who asked [back then] something like: "So, are cell
                >phones egoistic evil?..." [Tarjei, please correct me if I'm wrong!]

                The cell phone remark wasn't mine, and I don't remember it at all,
                but your quote from GA # 93a (Foundations of Esotericism) at the end
                of Lecture 28 (Berlin, October 31, 1905) is something I have also
                quoted repeatedly here in the past.

                I disagree that current globo-political events are irrelevant to what
                is said here, but I'd like to add that it's much more far-reaching
                than mere politics, and goes much deeper. After the current fifth
                post-Atlantean epoch comes the sixth out of Russia, based on the
                brotherhood of man. This will be followed by the seventh epoch
                arising from America that will bring the entire cycle to destruction
                with egoistic evil.

                Because egoistic evil is the key issue here, and not politics per se,
                it's important to keep in mind that the latter is the product of the
                former. There is a tendency to put everything political in focus and
                forget the fact that the secret lodges of the West are primarily
                concerned with fostering philosophies and worldviews that allow such
                rampant egoism to flourish.

                But it does indeed play into politics. John Perkins' 2004 book
                "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" makes this crystal clear. This
                is also a type of politics that is aimed at fostering hatred against
                the West in certain countries in order to hinder the evolution of
                innate occult capacities there. (See "Challenge of the Times.")

                Tarjei
              • holderlin66
                And, in this context, I ll repeat myself: Does the *axis of evil* actually pass through the center of gravity of Anglo-American foreign affairs? Regards,
                Message 7 of 27 , May 14 4:05 PM
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                  And, in this context, I'll repeat myself:
                  "Does the *axis of evil* actually pass through the center of gravity
                  of Anglo-American foreign affairs?"
                   
                  Regards,
                  Jean-Marc

                  Bradford comments;

                  Draping Love with a nice coat of egotism is the ever thickening shell we have created against penetrating the i am.  The drapery becomes hardened, the etheric forcese materialized and the i am trapped in a stew of its own unevolved selfish motives, laced with beings it can neither recognize nor feel the urge to oppose. While it doesn't matter that we know precisely the Line of Spin, that misplaced, the West's and GWB description of the axis of evil. The real axis of Evil remains ever Israel, Britain and America.  Now we might have to include France!!!! a quadrant of evil!

                  And exactly what type of egotism and evil are we examining? Social brainwashing, and also the Orwellian pornography of the intellect.  "1984" and the PNAC, "Project for a New Ahrimanic Century" are all, along with American MSM, gross intellectual prostitution, pornography and extreme Whoring of our sense of Truth, until it changes to our enjoyment of the lie. We might expect a good rousing battle, at nearly a Matrix level rise of Ahrimanic Angels, exiled into human heads by Michael, to rise up and see how far they can push us before humanity defends it's humanity.

                  Today as we are in the second 100 years of a Michael confrontation with Ahrimanic rising forces. Main Stream Media, Military Industrial complex, full coated lies that track through the star rhythm return of 1914 to 1998....give us plateful after plateful of utter deceptive Ahrimanic lies. Kennedy was not killed as the Warren Commission has testified. 9/11 was not the work of some small time Arab and Muslim CIA brand name, like McDonalds called, Al Qaeda. Thermite cuts in the steel girders reveal no terrorists, but American treason using Ahrimanic means.

                  The War on Terror is a bubble of thrust out externalized force, slang, a coined Orwellian/Ahrimanic deception, that is actually an ongoing Consciousness Soul interior battle with Ahrimanic beings going on in each of us. The fifth epoch is a wonderful story of wrestling with the whoredom of our intellectual souls and how the Fifth Epoch prepared the ground for Ahriman to feel comfortable in the atmosphere of lies and soul deceptions that is the life blood of ice he or it needs to have instilled in a vast volume of human beings. And this too will come to pass in a sickening manner, because you have to wonder how in lamentation will soul and karmic deceptions appear directly in the physical form and how will labor become a holy offering of brotherhood from this Fifth Epoch direction of raw self-interest and egotism? So the intensity builds to harden and enshell the immature i, in its juices. But what ghastly event will begin changing all that, ghastly like the soul forces of transformation indicated in Vendetta?

                  How we betray our own honesty, sense of truth, and promote torture and war based on Winning by any Means.... It was  once all part of the ancient Caiaphas dilemma and part of Ahriman/Caiaphas Israel current policy, What matter if one man dies to save a nation. What matter if one nation is destroyed for Oil to serve an Ahrimanic empire? What matter if we enshell the simplistic i am in its own selfish juices and give it fast food and superfical life styles while we devour it with lies from within? What matter if the gift of Spirit Man, that gift of Golgotha and Caiaphas against Christ goes by unnoticed and unsought while the selfish juices of humanity celebrate the  frivolous.

                  Terrorism is how we locate the region and the Fifth Epoch is the schooling in how we locate the Ahrimanic icy lies and deceptions we fall for as humans and how easily we fall for them and we rarely want to acknowledge the uncomfortable feeling it gives us to zero in on our own lies and deceptions, or how we cut murdering cutthroat torture mongers slack, because we cut ourselves so much slack as we send our children off to schools to be shredded and murdered and then support Ahrimanically infected Politics which reflects all the grey areas in our intellectual soul unease with critical self knowledge.  America has become terrified of its own potential goodness. Which means that America like Germany before it has fallen for the lie.

                  There is no big bang. The Ahrimanic mushroom cloud was the dawn of the Ahrimanic externalized coming out party, to hide the interior rise of the Etheric Christ. Intelligent Design is the totality of what Spiritual Sciences rests on, and these terms as well, hijacked by Ahriman and Spun into lies. We are not educated in America, we are shredded, stupid and unable to get to the roots of any problem in reality because of our wishing away the introspection and conscience factors of the i am in us. We fear that once we embark on Consciousness Soul i amness and research, we will fully confront our deceptions and we are skittish, cowardly, and would rather thrust terrorism of the i am and harboring our own deceptive Ahrimanic doubles away from us, externalize them into an external enemy. The Nazi's did this for Germany by creating a scapegoat so America has led the lazy egotism of America into the deception of Arabs and Muslims as so much easily murdered dirt.

                  Jean-Marc is looking at vast Corporate, multi-national, socio-political arrogance and egotism of the West, and Steiner was looking at the same NET - Web of i-pod and cell phone instant gratification of egotistic impulses that deplete any cognitive efforts to read the synchronistic reality of destiny events and Angel's workings, by infusing the dull soul with gossip, giddy girl picture, superficial instant blabberings.... Yet truly these same Inventions, with the proper Foundational Education of preliminary i am higher psychological sciences, could serve and do serve for a ready communication and information system. But the result is that cognitive thought has been weakened and mere superfical skimming over either destiny reflection, conscience stirring insights, or meetings with inner cognitive truth are side-stepped for the love of little luciferic tid-bits and data bytes that are a constant barrage of lies and consumer enticements to more lies.

                  But when there was a Stand Down in the airspace of America, serious Ahrimanic use of communication  and hi-technology in the situation room, Cheney's bunker, where he controlled the drills on the day of 9/11 so that planes would be remotely guided to their targets; set the stage for the thrust of Ahrimanic forces to inject a mighty shock and icy tragic punch into the weakest thinkers in America and merely stir up an immature sentient and intellectual soul nationnalized deception. The tragic punch was created by Israel and the U.S. and blamed on Arabs. Bin Laden is dead, has been dead,  died of liver disease as early as 2001. There are no video tapes of bin laden confesssions, these were made at pentagon and CIA spin and propaganda centers. There is no need to chase after bin laden. Al Qaeda is merely a collective brand name, a multi-National scare tactic like Orwell's "Big Brother". It is externalized hype to keep the Fifth Epoch off the track so that Ahrimanic forces can gain monopoly over the externalized system of extended nerve and sense system hungering for materialistic toys. Ask yourself if you wish to be bored with looking at your own struggle with truth, what your child is in reality and the science of human biography, isn't it all so depressing? Where can the instincts play and enjoy all the advertised good sex and soap opera trailer trash cess pool sentient gossip grabbers!

                  Should we not be able to rejoice in the wonders of etheric number and light in nature? Should we not be able to rejoice in the wisdom of each i am and astral configuration that our Angel has configured so that we enter The Matrix of Time and meet the impacts of our destiny and biographies with such unique and individual clarity?  Should we not marvel at the 12 cranial nerve map each individual has sucked down into their biologies, and that we are set ticking with our first breath, from a certain time, location and point and place in the great Zeit Geist drama? Certainly we could rejoice that we do each indeed have those stars in us.

                  The counter balance to the intense Ahrimanic drum beat in the Fifthe Epoch  had to be exact Spiritual Science Schooling, soul monitoring, where the physics of destiny, and the human form, and i am, are understood as a non-accidental factors, god does not play dice with inserting a baby in time. Translated means that our Angels work to place our children into a star time and framework where their karmic biographies will meet timed challenges.

                  The packaging of the 12 cranial nerves and the recessed eye of the pineal thought and light sensitive seeing appratus of the brain, and hundreds of endocrine and Imagination pictures that overlay our biological instrument.... should easily bring the prepared i am to the shattering transfiguration, Golgotha birth of the Spirit Man, and the current Etheric Christ events... even by elementary understanding of the plant and human temperament systems....etheric tableau and Near Death Experiences, where the memory forces are extracted and live outside the physical body for a moment in the essence of time itself.  All of these should be part of the grasp of enhanced conscience and Consciousness Soul schooling in order to antidote the thrust of Ahrimanic-dominating, main stream media technology. Spiritual Science puts the memory tableau and the time body of man in an arena of science that trumps Einstein altogether. But we are bored with the intensity of all the Spiritual Science could give and prefer to indulge in a swirl of undigested media or flee it.

                  But education is fully warped already. Anthros must surround Fifth Epoch deceptions and wring from them Michael truths. Anthros must wring from Ahriman, and push Ahrimanic deceptions back through the depth and clarity of the commons sense of Spiritual Science. These Ahrimanic Beings, from the Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, have a specific agenda and on the other hand humanity as a middle Michael realm has a specific agenda and only those who carry Michael School conscious and unconscious impulses seem to recognize what the Fifth Epoch, school against deceptions, Ahrimanic invasions and ripping away the masks.... means.

                • Jean-Marc Nguyen
                  ... The cell phone remark wasn t mine, and I don t remember it at all, but your quote from GA # 93a (Foundations of Esotericism) at the end of Lecture 28
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 14 4:21 PM
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                    Tarjei, you wrote:

                    >If my memory serves me right, interpretations
                    similar to yours, of
                    >the very same passage, came up on another list
                    [a-science or
                    >a-views] a few years back...As a matter of fact, I believe
                    it was
                    >Tarjei himself who asked [back then] something like: "So, are
                    cell
                    >phones egoistic evil?..." [Tarjei, please correct me if I'm
                    wrong!]

                    The cell phone remark wasn't mine, and I don't remember it at all,
                    but your quote from GA # 93a (Foundations of Esotericism) at the end
                    of Lecture 28 (Berlin, October 31, 1905) is something I have also
                    quoted repeatedly here in the past.
                     
                    --------------------------------------------------------------
                     
                    An unfortunate mix-up.
                    My sincere apologies, Tarjei!
                     
                    Cheers,
                    Jean-Marc 
                     

                     
                  • Frank Smith
                    ... Yeah, not to mention Toyota, Honda and made in China . ... I wonder, Jean-Marc, if you consider that Steiner was speaking here in infallible mode, that
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 14 4:35 PM
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                      --- Jean-Marc Nguyen <jmnguyen@...> wrote:



                      > Imo, Steiner is referring to whatever means England
                      > and America will
                      > *think up* and have recourse to --- in order to
                      > firmly establish, extend,
                      > promote, secure, and eventually globalize --- the
                      > *economic system*
                      > which will enable England and America to realize the
                      > Anglo-American
                      > *dream* of the essentially egoistic Anglo-American
                      > *occult lodges*:
                      > to take a controlling interest in the economy,
                      > natural resources and
                      > workforce, of the entire planet, and thus secure the
                      > preeminent and
                      > unchallengeable dominating position of England and
                      > America on a
                      > worldwide scale, for many, many centuries!

                      Yeah, not to mention Toyota, Honda and "made in
                      China".

                      > According to Steiner, this domination will result in
                      > large-scale *economic
                      > slavery*(sic!) - and the secret intention of the
                      > Anglo-American occult
                      > lodges is to encroach - as much as possible and
                      > illegitimately! - on the
                      > next and 6th sub-race [Slavonic], that of the "true
                      > people of Christ"...

                      I wonder, Jean-Marc, if you consider that Steiner was
                      speaking here in infallible mode, that is, as an
                      initiate getting the info on a direct line from the
                      spiritual world - or was giving his personal opinion.
                      I also wonder if you think what he said in 1905 about
                      the anglo-American lodges holds good 100 years later -
                      and beyond.

                      >
                      > To mention some of the *visible* Anglo-American
                      > *inventions*: World
                      > Bank, IMF, GATT, WTO, NATO, etc...
                      > Wonderful international organizations? Sure. But one
                      > crucial question is:
                      > to what extent are those Anglo-American inventions
                      > merely the means to
                      > promote, establish [ impose!] the Anglo-American
                      > agenda of a global
                      > free market (economy) and to extend Anglo-American
                      > hegemony over
                      > the world?

                      Globalization is an inevitable fact of life which is
                      neither good nor evil in itself. One of its positive
                      elements is that it's not nationalistic. The negative
                      is that the poor nations can't keep up with it;
                      therefore they'll have to change, culturally as well
                      as economically. And yes, the rich ones *should* help
                      them do it.

                      > The Society of Nations was basically an
                      > Anglo-American *invention*.
                      > And it is under the auspices of its successor, the
                      > UN, that *economic*
                      > sanctions turned out to be a weapon of mass
                      > destruction for perhaps
                      > one million Iraqi children! - with Madeleine
                      > Albright's embarrassed and
                      > yet immortal blessing from 1996: "The price is worth
                      > it..."
                      > Hey, great *economic* metaphor!
                      > I wonder if Madam Secretary of State was trying to
                      > convey her concern
                      > that, crudely speaking, crude oil was - in fact,
                      > priceless nowadays...

                      Do this mean that you deem the UN worthless and a tool
                      of the Anglo-American secret societies?


                      >
                      > Now, apart from the obvious Anglo-American egoistic
                      > drives --- what
                      > does a globalized free market (economy) have to do
                      > with egoism and
                      > *egoistic evil*?...

                      Globalization is not necessarily synonymous with a
                      free market philosophy. Steiner recognized this,
                      therefore his idea of economic associations - national
                      and international.


                      > "In the Fifth Sub-Race work is performed as a
                      > commodity (sold).
                      > In the Sixth Sub-Race work will be performed as an
                      > offering (free work).
                      > The economic needs of existence will then be
                      > separated from work: there
                      > will be no more personal possession, everything will
                      > be owned in common.
                      > One will no longer work for one's personal
                      > existence, but will do
                      > everything as absolute offering for humanity."
                      >
                      > No more personal possession? Everything will be
                      > owned in common?
                      > That really sounds like *true Communism* - doesn't
                      > it?...

                      Yes, which brings up the contradiction that R.S. was
                      very opposed to communism, especially because it
                      eliminates individual initiative. Btw, too bad all
                      this early "sub-race" stuff is still around. For
                      Steiner's mature social ideas, I would recommend later
                      works.


                      > Why, for instance, do you think the earned income of
                      > a cleaning lady is
                      > ridiculously and shamefully low compared with that
                      > of her employer
                      > [a lawyer, a surgeon, a movie star - for instance]?
                      > Why are the living standards of their respective
                      > families so incredibly
                      > different? Why does such unfairness pass for a
                      > perhaps regrettable and
                      > yet inevitable pseudo-natural law governing our
                      > social order?
                      > For the very simple reason that *egoism* is the
                      > governing shaper of
                      > the present social order --- where the satisfaction
                      > of one's "economic
                      > needs of existence" entirely depends on the
                      > dehumanized and pure
                      > *marketable value* of the work one is able to offer
                      > to the community.
                      > From this perspective, it is perfectly clear that,
                      > in a social order where
                      > the economic needs of existence are*not* separated
                      > from work, the
                      > globalization of free market (economy) will
                      > necessarily result in human
                      > beings worldwide being condemned to survive and live
                      > their entire life
                      > as egoists among egoists...
                      > This, imo, is the "network of egoistic evil" Steiner
                      > is talking about.

                      All the above are concerned with rights, not
                      globalization as such. The "right" of a cleaning lady
                      to earn a fair wage, etc. I can assure you that
                      cleaning ladies were treated unfairly way before
                      globalization.


                      > And, in this context, I'll repeat myself:
                      > "Does the *axis of evil* actually pass through the
                      > center of gravity
                      > of Anglo-American foreign affairs?"

                      At the moment that seems to be the case. However,
                      there is still hope that it is about to change.
                      Frank



                      Frank Thomas Smith
                      http://SouthernCrossReview.org



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                    • Frank Smith
                      ... While ... Why not include the UN and call it projective geometry? Frank Frank Thomas Smith http://SouthernCrossReview.org
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 14 4:44 PM
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                        --- holderlin66 <holderlin66@...> wrote:

                        While
                        > it doesn't matter
                        > that we know precisely the Line of Spin, that
                        > misplaced, the West's and
                        > GWB description of the axis of evil. The real axis
                        > of Evil remains ever
                        > Israel, Britain and America. Now we might have to
                        > include France!!!! a
                        > quadrant of evil!

                        Why not include the UN and call it projective
                        geometry?
                        Frank



                        Frank Thomas Smith
                        http://SouthernCrossReview.org


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                      • holderlin66
                        Frank the Prankster wrote; Do this mean that you deem the UN worthless and a tool of the Anglo-American secret societies? Oh gee Frank? How in fact can we
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 14 5:16 PM
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                          Frank the Prankster wrote;

                          "Do this mean that you deem the UN worthless and a tool
                          of the Anglo-American secret societies?"

                          Oh gee Frank? How in fact can we answer such a simpleton? That the U.N. was overridden, that it was an illegal invasion and U.N. inspectors mocked  for the illegal invasion from the spoiled rotten and deadly American inflluences?  Shall we start there or go back to Frank's good ole days when Alfred Hitchcock could film in color at the U.N. and the cold war was your happy cupcake?  The whole U.N. is laughed at as a Right Wing joke, like France and Freedom Fries... all because of shills, lodges and complete lies offered and Bolton like forced down the throats of innocent countries with bribes and what?  Genocide? Good golly Frank, I have to admit, I love it when your attempt to play dumb to get some response.

                           Globalization, you really are a sweet dusty, low priced knock off job. Don't attempt to raise such issues as bribery, coercion, corruption... when the Iraqi Parliment must fight against American and British, as well as Israli bombs planted in Iraqi cars at supposed check points, to help steer and further the manipulation of the well played murderous Wizard of OZ, the American/Ahriman behind the curtain, pulling the strings so that the OIL deal that is struggling to be  finalized so  the West can continue remaining with it's permanent bases and it's permanent occupation coveting Iran and all the OIL with it's black gold Avarice seething the brain juices of Cheney. An OIL WAR and an OIL contract in the parliment that will give all the major OIL companies, the so called Seven Sisters, their black gold that Dick Cheney is willing to torture for and murder for?  You are so sweet when you play the dumb card. 

                          In answer to your pathetic little question. The answer is Yes, the U.N. is currently a limp and useless arm of the political west. What kind of silly cyanide laced candy coated question was that? We wish the Senate and Congress in the U.S., we wish that the U.N. could enforce a slam down rejection of the fascism arising in the West, but all the members and all the king's stumbling bufoons are bought and paid for  --- except for Chávez.

                          Take the Mask off and see what you see of the destructive lies within the human soul! It's easy if you are too dumb, just attempt to dream through Vendetta. Ah nevermind. I know you think you have gained your reputation by letting others think, about what you already have seen as choices.. Let them eat cake and let them think at good ole Uncle Frank's soft tea bake off Anthro think tank.

                        • Jo Ann Schwartz
                          ... Woo-hoo! You go, Frank!! As an aside, let me recommend the following Harper s article on the persistant theme -- first in Germany and now in the U.S. --
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 15 10:19 AM
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                            --- Frank Smith wrote:

                            > Why not include the UN and call it projective
                            > geometry?

                            Woo-hoo! You go, Frank!!

                            As an aside, let me recommend the following Harper's
                            article on the persistant theme -- first in Germany and now
                            in the U.S. -- of how 'secret societies' ruined everything
                            by 'stabbing us (however you define us) in the back.'

                            http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/06/0081080

                            Some brief quotes to pique your interest:

                            "Every state must have its enemies. Great powers must have
                            especially monstrous foes. Above all, these foes must arise
                            from within, for national pride does not admit that a great
                            nation can be defeated by any outside force. That is why,
                            though its origins are elsewhere, the stab in the back has
                            become the sustaining myth of modern American nationalism.
                            Since the end of World War II it has been the device by
                            which the American right wing has both revitalized itself
                            and repeatedly avoided responsibility for its own worst
                            blunders. Indeed, the right has distilled its tale of
                            betrayal into a formula: Advocate some momentarily popular
                            but reckless policy. Deny culpability when that policy is
                            exposed as disastrous. Blame the disaster on internal
                            enemies who hate America. Repeat, always making sure to
                            increase the number of internal enemies. ... "

                            "The stab in the back first gained currency in Germany, as
                            a means of explaining the nation's stunning defeat in World
                            War I. It was Field Marshal Paul von Hindenburg himself,
                            the leading German hero of the war, who told the National
                            Assembly, 'As an English general has very truly said, the
                            German army was 'stabbed in the back.' '

                            "Like everything else associated with the stab-in-the-back
                            myth, this claim was disingenuous. The 'English general' in
                            question was one Maj. Gen. Neill Malcolm, head of the
                            British Military Mission in Berlin after the war, who put
                            forward this suggestion merely to politely summarize how
                            Field Marshal Erich von Ludendorff - the force behind
                            Hindenburg - was characterizing the German army's alleged
                            lack of support from its civilian government.

                            "'Ludendorff's eyes lit up, and he leapt upon the phrase
                            like a dog on a bone,' wrote Hindenburg biographer John
                            Wheeler-Bennett. ' 'Stabbed in the back?' he repeated.
                            'Yes, that's it exactly. We were stabbed in the back.' '"

                            ..........

                            Musing myth or reality... when does one become the other...
                            JoAnn




                            ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
                            "Life's short and we never have enough time for the hearts of those who travel the way with us. O, be swift to love! Make haste to be kind." --Henri-Frederic Amiel
                          • Tarjei Straume
                            ... The stuff you re referring to (GA # 93a from 1905 that Jean-Marc quoted from) is more visionary and prophetic than purged in thought, you might say. It
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 15 3:31 PM
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                              Frank, you wrote:

                              Btw, too bad all this early "sub-race" stuff is still around. For Steiner's mature social ideas, I would recommend later works.

                              The stuff you're referring to (GA # 93a from 1905 that Jean-Marc quoted from) is more visionary and prophetic than "purged in thought," you might say. It doesn't mean it's nonsensical, far from it, but it's.... non-fatalistically prophetic.

                              In this volume, RS used a lot of Sanscrit vocabulary familiar to students of HPB, and he was basically elaborating on the outline of evolution described in her books. According to RS, prophesy or prediction does not mean that certain things are absolutely inevitable, but that there are forces at work in the direction described. Many things can happen in the course of time that will result in a slightly different outcome, but what he describes in terms of successive cultural epochs (or sub-races), their missions and destinies and so on, seems to be the blueprint, or template, of planetary evolution, or "shape of things to come" so to speak.

                              The mature social ideas you're referring to, the threefolding and so on, were the product of pure thinking, of conscious intellectual endeavor, albeit a thinking influenced by the knowledge of man's spiritual existence and moment in history, man's current stage of evolution of consciousness.

                              For this reason, I don't think it's fair to play Steiner's visionary, prophetic talk up against his innovative political ideas and say that one is better than the other. But you may say you prefer one subject matter to another, just like you may say about any given Broadway musical artist that you think he dances better than he sings.

                              Tarjei
                            • Frank Smith
                              Tarjei Straume wrote: Frank, you wrote: Btw, too bad all this early sub-race stuff is still around.
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 16 7:03 AM
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                                Tarjei Straume <straume@...> wrote:
                                Frank, you wrote:

                                Btw, too bad all this early "sub-race" stuff is still around. For Steiner's mature social ideas, I would recommend later works.

                                The stuff you're referring to (GA # 93a from 1905 that Jean-Marc quoted from) is more visionary and prophetic than "purged in thought," you might say. It doesn't mean it's nonsensical, far from it, but it's.... non-fatalistically prophetic.

                                In this volume, RS used a lot of Sanscrit vocabulary familiar to students of HPB, and he was basically elaborating on the outline of evolution described in her books. According to RS, prophesy or prediction does not mean that certain things are absolutely inevitable, but that there are forces at work in the direction described. Many things can happen in the course of time that will result in a slightly different outcome, but what he describes in terms of successive cultural epochs (or sub-races), their missions and destinies and so on, seems to be the blueprint, or template, of planetary evolution, or "shape of things to come" so to speak.

                                The mature social ideas you're referring to, the threefolding and so on, were the product of pure thinking, of conscious intellectual endeavor, albeit a thinking influenced by the knowledge of man's spiritual existence and moment in history, man's current stage of evolution of consciousness.

                                For this reason, I don't think it's fair to play Steiner's visionary, prophetic talk up against his innovative political ideas and say that one is better than the other. But you may say you prefer one subject matter to another, just like you may say about any given Broadway musical artist that you think he dances better than he sings.

                                Fair enough, but R.S. did his share of prophesizing later as well, fe,
                                http://southerncrossreview.org/Ebooks/ebbasicissues2.htm




                                Frank Thomas Smith
                                http://SouthernCrossReview.org


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                              • Tarjei Straume
                                ... This book about the social question, written in 1919, seems to be a continuation of the subject matter of his lectures at the end of 1918, when he spoke a
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 16 7:29 AM
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                                  Fran, you wrote:

                                  Fair enough, but R.S. did his share of prophesizing later as well, fe,
                                  http://southerncrossreview.org/Ebooks/ebbasicissues2.htm

                                  This book about the social question, written in 1919, seems to be a continuation of the subject matter of his lectures at the end of 1918, when he spoke a great deal about the secret lodges of the West (GA  #186, translated as "Challenge of the Times"). I quoted extensively from this in that article of mine a decade ago, "The Secret Lodges of the West."

                                  It's very difficult, however, to discuss such topics in an analytical and objective fashion publically in the face of polemical outbursts from certain quarters.

                                  Tarjei

                                  P.S. Please don't include my email address in the body of the text when responding to my posts. It gives me a lot of spam, and I have to delete my email addresses and replace them more frequently.

                                  T
                                • Jean-Marc Nguyen
                                  Frank wrote: I wonder, Jean-Marc, if you consider that Steiner was speaking here in infallible mode, that is, as an initiate getting the info on a direct line
                                  Message 16 of 27 , May 19 9:10 AM
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                                    Frank wrote:
                                     
                                    I wonder, Jean-Marc, if you consider that Steiner was
                                    speaking here in infallible mode, that is, as an
                                    initiate getting the info on a direct line from the
                                    spiritual world - or was giving his personal opinion.
                                    I also wonder if you think what he said in 1905 about
                                    the anglo-American lodges holds good 100 years later -
                                    and beyond.
                                     
                                    Jean-Marc replies:
                                     
                                    Are *you* on the horns of such dilemmas?
                                    Your questions remind me of a few quotes I posted on a now defunct
                                    French anthro-list, two years ago; Steiner's words caused an uproar!
                                    They dealt with a very special and rather unflattering feature of the etheric
                                    bodies of the French people :-)
                                    One member of the AS asked: why is the [French] AS hiding this from us?
                                    I thought that was a very pertinent question...
                                    Anyway, many of the indignant readers probably thought that this specific
                                    lecture was one of Steiner's *unplugged* performance :-)
                                    As far as I'm concerned, what Steiner said holds good as long as no one
                                    can *prove* the contrary...
                                     
                                     
                                    Frank wrote:
                                     
                                    Do this mean that you deem the UN worthless and a tool
                                    of the Anglo-American secret societies?
                                     
                                    Jean-Marc replies:
                                     
                                    Trying to drown that frog in the pond once and for all, Frank?
                                    Forget it! I carry my scuba gear around the clock - just in case of
                                    major, minor [even insignificant!] terrorist attacks :-)
                                     
                                    No, this meant that Satan spoke American fluently --- and that
                                    the UN can be an instrument of evil in the hands of evil manipulators.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    Frank wrote:
                                     
                                    Yes, which brings up the contradiction that R.S. was
                                    very opposed to communism, especially because it
                                    eliminates individual initiative. Btw, too bad all
                                    this early "sub-race" stuff is still around. For
                                    Steiner's mature social ideas, I would recommend later
                                    works.
                                     
                                    Jean-Marc replies:
                                     
                                    Frank, putting on an extra-large *sombrero* and staying in the shade
                                    keeps the hallucinations away :-)
                                    Contradiction?... What contradiction?
                                    Why do you think I wrote *true Communism*?
                                    This*preemptive* action was supposed to prevent the outbreak of a
                                    pointless verbal war [discussion].
                                    It is all too obvious that Steiner could not be a staunch supporter of
                                    the materialist and totalitarian caricature of [spiritual] communism ! ---
                                    which, btw, the *Anglo-American occult lodges* so dreadfully feared 
                                    that *they* decided  the "Communist experiment" would be carried
                                    out in the Eastern part of Europe and beyond --- in order not to
                                    ruin the economic/social system they had in mind for Western Europe!
                                    And, somehow, *their* plan [i.e., machination] succeeded, didn't it?
                                    As long as such a fact remains entirely *occult* and is not taken into
                                    account - at least as a plausible working hypothesis! - world history
                                    in the twentieth century is hardly anything else but a delusive fiction...
                                    No wonder Steiner repeated over and over again that *history* was
                                    a "fable convenue" [a conventional fiction]!
                                     
                                    In the 6th sub-race: "One will no longer work for one's personal existence,
                                    but will do everything as absolute offering for humanity."
                                    If you've got a better definition of individual initiative - please, let us know!
                                     
                                    Personally, I'd highly recommend the use of the early "sub-race" stuff along
                                    with that of the later stuff - as a prophylactic treatment against
                                    *nominalistic* feeble-mindedness.
                                    Besides, I'd hate it if the anti-Steiner, anti-Anthroposophy, anti-Waldorf
                                    clique of *scarecrows* (with bedding straw in place of an intellect)
                                    somehow managed --- to scare the shit out of them little anthro birds. :-)
                                    Tweet tweet!
                                     
                                     
                                    Cheers,
                                    Jean-Marc
                                     
                                  • Frank Smith
                                    Jean-Marc Nguyen wrote: Frank wrote: I wonder, Jean-Marc, if you consider that Steiner was speaking here in infallible mode, that is, as an initiate getting
                                    Message 17 of 27 , May 19 4:58 PM
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                                      Jean-Marc Nguyen wrote:
                                      Frank wrote:
                                       
                                      I wonder, Jean-Marc, if you consider that Steiner was
                                      speaking here in infallible mode, that is, as an
                                      initiate getting the info on a direct line from the
                                      spiritual world - or was giving his personal opinion.
                                      I also wonder if you think what he said in 1905 about
                                      the anglo-American lodges holds good 100 years later -
                                      and beyond.
                                       
                                      Jean-Marc replies:
                                       
                                      Are *you* on the horns of such dilemmas?
                                      Your questions remind me of a few quotes I posted on a now defunct
                                      French anthro-list, two years ago; Steiner's words caused an uproar!
                                      They dealt with a very special and rather unflattering feature of the etheric
                                      bodies of the French people :-)
                                      One member of the AS asked: why is the [French] AS hiding this from us?
                                      I thought that was a very pertinent question...
                                      Anyway, many of the indignant readers probably thought that this specific
                                      lecture was one of Steiner's *unplugged* performance :-)
                                      As far as I'm concerned, what Steiner said holds good as long as no one
                                      can *prove* the contrary...
                                       
                                       F: Someone recently quoted those quite wild anti-French language remarks to me (I assume they're the same you mean - from talks with teachers) - worrying that a friend (French) new to anthroposophy came across them and wondered how an initiate could utter such nonsense. She asked for my advise, but I had little to give her because I don't know the plugged answer.

                                      Frank wrote:
                                       
                                      Do this mean that you deem the UN worthless and a tool
                                      of the Anglo-American secret societies?
                                       
                                      Jean-Marc replies:
                                       
                                      Trying to drown that frog in the pond once and for all, Frank?
                                      Forget it! I carry my scuba gear around the clock - just in case of
                                      major, minor [even insignificant! ] terrorist attacks :-)
                                       
                                      No, this meant that Satan spoke American fluently --- and that
                                      the UN can be an instrument of evil in the hands of evil manipulators.

                                      F: Well now, that's different - applies to just about everything. 
                                       
                                       
                                      Frank wrote:
                                       
                                      Yes, which brings up the contradiction that R.S. was
                                      very opposed to communism, especially because it
                                      eliminates individual initiative. Btw, too bad all
                                      this early "sub-race" stuff is still around. For
                                      Steiner's mature social ideas, I would recommend later
                                      works.
                                       
                                      Jean-Marc replies:
                                       
                                      Frank, putting on an extra-large *sombrero* and staying in the shade
                                      keeps the hallucinations away :-)
                                      Contradiction? ... What contradiction?
                                      Why do you think I wrote *true Communism*?
                                      This*preemptive* action was supposed to prevent the outbreak of a
                                      pointless verbal war [discussion] .
                                      It is all too obvious that Steiner could not be a staunch supporter of
                                      the materialist and totalitarian caricature of [spiritual] communism ! ---

                                      F: What in Lucifer's name is "spiritual communism"?

                                      J-M: which, btw, the *Anglo-American occult lodges* so dreadfully feared 
                                      that *they* decided  the "Communist experiment" would be carried
                                      out in the Eastern part of Europe and beyond --- in order not to
                                      ruin the economic/social system they had in mind for Western Europe!
                                      And, somehow, *their* plan [i.e., machination] succeeded, didn't it?
                                      As long as such a fact remains entirely *occult* and is not taken into
                                      account - at least as a plausible working hypothesis! - world history
                                      in the twentieth century is hardly anything else but a delusive fiction...
                                      No wonder Steiner repeated over and over again that *history* was
                                      a "fable convenue" [a conventional fiction]!

                                      F: Thanks for the translation. The keywords in the above statement are "at least as a plausible working hypothesis". Ok, but such a hypothesis should lead somewhere, like to evidence, which I haven't seen. The only basis for the hypothesis is that Lenin was allowed to return to Russia to lead the revolution - but the was done by the Germans, for obvious practical reasons. Whether they were influenced by Anglo-American occult lodges is too occult, and quoting Steiner will get you no French kisses. 

                                      J-M: In the 6th sub-race: "One will no longer work for one's personal existence,
                                      but will do everything as absolute offering for humanity."

                                      If you've got a better definition of individual initiative - please, let us know!

                                      F: I don't have one; it's sounds good, so let's hope. 

                                      J-M: Personally, I'd highly recommend the use of the early "sub-race" stuff along
                                      with that of the later stuff - as a prophylactic treatment against
                                      *nominalistic* feeble-mindedness.
                                      Besides, I'd hate it if the anti-Steiner, anti-Anthroposophy, anti-Waldorf
                                      clique of *scarecrows* (with bedding straw in place of an intellect)
                                      somehow managed --- to scare the shit out of them little anthro birds. :-)
                                      Tweet tweet!

                                      F: Have you been nesting with Bradford by any chance? 
                                       Tweet,
                                      Frank




                                      Frank Thomas Smith
                                      http://SouthernCrossReview.org


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                                    • Tarjei Straume
                                      ... The early church. The Book of Acts in the NT gives crystal clear descriptions of communism: Now all who believed were together, and had all things in
                                      Message 18 of 27 , May 19 5:52 PM
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                                        Frank asked Jean-Marc:

                                        F: What in Lucifer's name is "spiritual communism"?

                                        The early church. The Book of Acts in the NT gives crystal clear descriptions of communism:
                                        Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
                                        - Acts 2:44-45
                                        Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.
                                        - Acts 4:32
                                        At one point an old couple is even struck dead on the spot by God for hiding a little money for themselves, apart from the group. (That makes God a little Stalin, doesn't it, hehe -- tell that to fundamentalist America and to anthros like Bobby Matherne and Starman.) The Essenes fit the commie bill too. The word "communism" probably comes from the Bible, I guess, from the verses cited above: To have in common.

                                        There's a difference, of course between the communism of a sect or church on the one hand, and communism imposed by a state government on the other. RS called the latter "false socialism."

                                        Interestingly, George Bernard Shaw was a state socialist, and therefore in essence, a political Communist (without the Marxist doctrine though). So Bernard Shaw and Ben Tucker, who was an individualist anarchist -- a label that his buddy Rudolf Steiner also 'confessed' adhering to -- agreed on just about everything except politics, which they argued and discussed intensely and polemically for 50 or 60 years, each trying to persuade the other.

                                        What's the matter with you, Frank? You scoff at spiritual communism, get up in arms against anarchism -- What's left? Vampirism and vulturism!

                                        http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/070.html
                                        Malcolm X:
                                        "It is impossible for capitalism to survive, primarily because the system of capitalism needs some blood to suck. Capitalism used to be like an eagle, but now it�s more like a vulture. It used to be strong enough to go and suck anybody�s blood whether they were strong or not. But now it has become more cowardly, like the vulture, and it can only suck the blood of the helpless. As the nations of the world free themselves, then capitalism has less victims, less to suck, and it becomes weaker and weaker. It�s only a matter of time in my opinion before it will collapse completely."
                                        The revolution needs you, Frank. Hugo Chavez needs you! Give him a big bear hug next time he shows up, I believe he paid off all of Argentina's debt to the World Bank and/or the IMF [International MotherFuckers] if I'm not mistaken.

                                        Tarjei
                                      • holderlin66
                                        F: Have you been nesting with Bradford by any chance? Tweet, Frank http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD5WlQ54Sg0
                                        Message 19 of 27 , May 19 10:14 PM
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                                          F: Have you been nesting with Bradford by any chance? 

                                           Tweet,
                                          Frank
                                           
                                           
                                          A little tug a little pull ain't it sweet, tweet, tweet, to stir the bull
                                          Culture comes from all sides and JFK was not an Oswald hit,
                                          Michael might stir the jiz and mix the juice,
                                          And 9/11 and Chavaz, with his U.N. speech,
                                          We know where the next puppet  made his feast.
                                           
                                          But Anthros tend to status quo supporting what the Pope don't know.
                                          Anthros live where the cutting edge, crosses over the threshold ledge.
                                          No it ain't easy to translate rappin  street cognition,
                                          Even if it means thatthe Michael Spirit is healthy fission.
                                           
                                          The moral window of what Zarathustra made,
                                          Was offering up the best of Man for human trade.
                                          The Heavens found their nuclear core,
                                          On Golgotha's hill were we restored.
                                           
                                          And light with healing, loving, invigorating moral thirst
                                          Quenched the fire that makes us the worst.
                                          That to eat the moral center and digest the i am stew,
                                          Can be a meal for the demons too!
                                        • holderlin66
                                          http://thewebfairy.com/911/93/mayor.htm
                                          Message 20 of 27 , May 19 10:43 PM
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                                          • dottie zold
                                            Dear Friends, Today is the official starting day of our Anthroposophia Study Group. If you are able to join us please click on this link at 3pm and you will
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 20 10:41 AM
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                                              Dear Friends,

                                              Today is the official starting day of our
                                              Anthroposophia Study Group. If you are able to join us
                                              please click on this link at 3pm and you will find our
                                              place in Skypecast. From here you will click on a
                                              button that say 'Join this group'.

                                              https://skypecasts.skype.com/skypecasts/skypecast/detailed.html?id_talk=838100



                                              I would like to suggest that you also have your Skype
                                              text link on as well. And if you have a problem
                                              getting in you will be able to text me and I will be
                                              able to share with you what needs to be done or if for
                                              some reason our site has been shut down and I have had
                                              to open another one at the spur of the moment. Last
                                              week our original group spot was deemed
                                              'innapropriate' by someone and we were taking out of
                                              the rotation. :( But with Sacha Picerno's help we were
                                              able to create a new one right away which can be done
                                              in Skype. Unfortunately once someone claims a group is
                                              innapropriate we are banned under that specific name.
                                              Hopefully that will not happen again and if it
                                              does:)))) well, we will just have to be a group on the
                                              run so to speak:) and very innovative to say the
                                              least:)

                                              Living the Foundation Stone Meditation
                                              Below you will find the link to Daniel Bittleston's
                                              exercise group Foundation Stone Meditation (FSM) that
                                              will be starting on Sunday May 27th, at 10am. This
                                              group will meet every Sunday morning unless noted
                                              otherwise. Daniel will be joined by Christine Burke
                                              who will offer us speech exercises that will allow us
                                              to deepen our study. Daniel's first line of study: "We
                                              shall be studying the FSM line by line, to clarify and
                                              deepen understanding. For example: What is our
                                              experience of our limbs carrying us into the ocean
                                              being of spirit?"
                                              Christine's work hopes to help us " To come to a
                                              deeper awareness of the verse, we can work with with
                                              Michael Chekhov's exercises of Moulding, Floating,
                                              Flying and Radiating, to get a sense of the states of
                                              Being/Doing in the Foundation Stone Meditation, and
                                              then we could journal and relate our experiences with
                                              each other ."

                                              https://skypecasts.skype.com/skypecasts/skypecast/detailed.html?id_talk=836932



                                              A Year of Transformation will be beginning tomorrow,
                                              Monday May 21, at 7pm. This study will start with the
                                              Daily exercises found in Guidance of Esoteric
                                              Training, We will begin with the Saturday exercise
                                              that will also include the daily Summary. We will also
                                              be adding one of the sixth basic exercises found in
                                              How To Know Higher Worlds. Journaling might be a good
                                              idea so that we can share with one another how things
                                              went for us throughout the week that might help us to
                                              better understand all that confronts us from within as
                                              we work towards transforming our Thinking, Feeling,
                                              and Willing.

                                              The link below is the entrance into this study group
                                              led by me, Dottie Zold, and co-worker, Henry David
                                              Keesing.

                                              https://skypecasts.skype.com/skypecasts/skypecast/detailed.html?id_talk=860571


                                              On all of these meetings I would suggest that you hold
                                              an open text Skype link so as to be able to ask
                                              questions to each of the leaders in case you are
                                              unable to find the group or that the group has to
                                              change its name at the last moment.

                                              We look forward to seeing you soon.

                                              All good things,
                                              Dottie Zold



                                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                            • dottie zold
                                              Okay, I got a man to do this justice with the beats. ... ____________________________________________________________________________________Fussy?
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 20 12:15 PM
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                                                Okay, I got a man to do this justice with the beats.
                                                :)O I aint' kidding.



                                                >
                                                > F: Have you been nesting with Bradford by any
                                                > chance?
                                                > Tweet,
                                                > Frank
                                                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD5WlQ54Sg0
                                                > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD5WlQ54Sg0> A
                                                > little tug a little
                                                > pull ain't it sweet, tweet, tweet, to stir the bull
                                                > Culture comes from
                                                > all sides and JFK was not an Oswald hit, Michael
                                                > might stir the jiz and
                                                > mix the juice, And 9/11 and Chavaz, with his U.N.
                                                > speech, We know where
                                                > the next puppet made his feast. But Anthros tend
                                                > to status quo
                                                > supporting what the Pope don't know. Anthros live
                                                > where the cutting
                                                > edge, crosses over the threshold ledge. No it ain't
                                                > easy to translate
                                                > rappin street cognition, Even if it means thatthe
                                                > Michael Spirit is
                                                > healthy fission. The moral window of what
                                                > Zarathustra made, Was
                                                > offering up the best of Man for human trade. The
                                                > Heavens found their
                                                > nuclear core, On Golgotha's hill were we restored.
                                                > And light with
                                                > healing, loving, invigorating moral thirst Quenched
                                                > the fire that makes
                                                > us the worst. That to eat the moral center and
                                                > digest the i am stew, Can
                                                > be a meal for the demons too!
                                                >



                                                ____________________________________________________________________________________Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
                                              • Jean-Marc Nguyen
                                                Frank wrote: Someone recently quoted those quite wild anti-French language remarks to me (I assume they re the same you mean - from talks with teachers) -
                                                Message 23 of 27 , May 21 7:31 PM
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                                                  Frank wrote:
                                                   
                                                  "Someone recently quoted those quite wild anti-French language remarks to
                                                  me (I assume they're the same you mean - from talks with teachers) -
                                                  worrying that a friend (French) new to anthroposophy came across them and
                                                  wondered how an initiate could utter such nonsense. She asked for my
                                                  advise, but I had little to give her because I don't know the plugged answer."
                                                   
                                                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                   
                                                  No, this isn't what I was alluding to...
                                                  But I'm glad you mentioned those remarks :-)
                                                  As far as the French language is concerned, I've always been astounded by
                                                  --- Steiner's incredible insight!
                                                   
                                                  Unprejudiced penetration is wisdom --- not nonsense!
                                                   
                                                  Please, do not deprive a newcomer of the opportunity to look at himself /
                                                  herself in the mirror of wisdom...
                                                   
                                                  Cheers,
                                                  Jean-Marc
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                • Frank Smith
                                                  Tarjei Straume wrote: Frank asked Jean-Marc: F: What in Lucifer s name is spiritual communism ? T: The early church. The
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , May 22 2:33 PM
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                                                    Tarjei Straume wrote:
                                                    Frank asked Jean-Marc:

                                                    F: What in Lucifer's name is "spiritual communism"?

                                                    T: The early church. The Book of Acts in the NT gives crystal clear descriptions of communism:
                                                    Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
                                                    - Acts 2:44-45
                                                    Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.
                                                    - Acts 4:32
                                                    F: The Lord - right?

                                                    Continuation: "In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic."
                                                    Not St. Paul, just his disciple, K. Marx


                                                    Hey, Tarj, does it being in blue make it truer? I like it, but methinks I'll wait for the 6th epoch when, apparently, the Philosophy of Freedom is no longer applicable.


                                                    T: At one point an old couple is even struck dead on the spot by God for hiding a little money for themselves, apart from the group. (That makes God a little Stalin, doesn't it, hehe -- tell that to fundamentalist America and to anthros like Bobby Matherne and Starman.) The Essenes fit the commie bill too. The word "communism" probably comes from the Bible, I guess, from the verses cited above: To have in common.

                                                    F: Personally, I take "Acts" with a Luciferic grain of salt. These things have been tried over and over and I don't mean the Soviet Union, but the old and new age communes, and they always fail.

                                                    T: There's a difference, of course between the communism of a sect or church on the one hand, and communism imposed by a state government on the other. RS called the latter "false socialism."

                                                    F: I'd call them all false socialism.

                                                    T: Interestingly, George Bernard Shaw was a state socialist, and therefore in essence, a political Communist (without the Marxist doctrine though). So Bernard Shaw and Ben Tucker, who was an individualist anarchist -- a label that his buddy Rudolf Steiner also 'confessed' adhering to -- agreed on just about everything except politics, which they argued and discussed intensely and polemically for 50 or 60 years, each trying to persuade the other.

                                                    What's the matter with you, Frank? You scoff at spiritual communism, get up in arms against anarchism -- What's left? Vampirism and vulturism!

                                                    F: And the Threefold Society - remember?
                                                    T:

                                                    http://www.hartford -hwp.com/ archives/ 45a/070.html
                                                    Malcolm X:
                                                    "It is impossible for capitalism to survive, primarily because the system of capitalism needs some blood to suck. Capitalism used to be like an eagle, but now it’s more like a vulture. It used to be strong enough to go and suck anybody’s blood whether they were strong or not. But now it has become more cowardly, like the vulture, and it can only suck the blood of the helpless. As the nations of the world free themselves, then capitalism has less victims, less to suck, and it becomes weaker and weaker. It’s only a matter of time in my opinion before it will collapse completely."
                                                    F: How's your capitalist enterprise doing, Tarjei? I hope well.
                                                    T:The revolution needs you, Frank. Hugo Chavez needs you! Give him a big bear hug next time he shows up, I believe he paid off all of Argentina's debt to the World Bank and/or the IMF [International MotherFuckers] if I'm not mistaken.

                                                    You are mistaken. Argentina paid off the debts, your pal Hugo bought Argentine bonds so the treasury wouldn't be depleted, and he now owns part of Argentina. Btw, don't try to open a newspaper or tv channel in Venezuela, unless it's pro-Chavez, because it's no longer permitted to publicly criticize the Gran Hermano there.  You might even get egg on your face here, where dictator Fidel and wanabe Hugo are heroes to the ignorant.

                                                    Frank



                                                    Frank Thomas Smith
                                                    http://SouthernCrossReview.org


                                                    We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                                                    (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

                                                  • Tarjei Straume
                                                    ... That s anarchism. Tarjei
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , May 22 3:52 PM
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                                                      I wrote:

                                                      >What's the matter with you, Frank? You scoff at spiritual communism,
                                                      >get up in arms against anarchism -- What's left? Vampirism and vulturism!

                                                      Frank wrote:

                                                      >And the Threefold Society - remember?

                                                      That's anarchism.

                                                      Tarjei
                                                    • Frank Smith
                                                      Jean-Marc Nguyen wrote: Frank wrote: Someone recently quoted those quite wild anti-French language remarks to me (I assume they re the
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , May 23 8:14 AM
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                                                        Jean-Marc Nguyen <jmnguyen@...> wrote:
                                                        Frank wrote:
                                                         
                                                        "Someone recently quoted those quite wild anti-French language remarks to
                                                        me (I assume they're the same you mean - from talks with teachers) -
                                                        worrying that a friend (French) new to anthroposophy came across them and
                                                        wondered how an initiate could utter such nonsense. She asked for my
                                                        advise, but I had little to give her because I don't know the plugged answer."
                                                         
                                                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ------
                                                         
                                                        No, this isn't what I was alluding to...
                                                        But I'm glad you mentioned those remarks :-)
                                                        As far as the French language is concerned, I've always been astounded by
                                                        --- Steiner's incredible insight!
                                                         
                                                        Unprejudiced penetration is wisdom --- not nonsense!
                                                         
                                                        Please, do not deprive a newcomer of the opportunity to look at himself /
                                                        herself in the mirror of wisdom...
                                                         
                                                        F: OK - in case there are newcomers around. But even oldcomers may be surprsied by this:

                                                        http://steinerbooks.org/research/archive.php#waldorf (scroll down to Vol. 8)
                                                        > Dr. Karutz says his proposal has a cultural, not a political, intention.
                                                        > His objective is that the parents make a unanimous decision that the
                                                        > French language should no longer be required. He proposes Russian as
                                                        > a replacement.
                                                        > Dr. Steiner: This question has a number of different aspects. The
                                                        > first is on the cultural side, and any serious pedagogical system
                                                        > must take that into account.
                                                        > We see in the current activities of the French something that
                                                        > fundamentally cannot be explained from the outside.2 It is inexplicable
                                                        > because anyone should be able to see, even from the
                                                        > French perspective, that France will not reach its own goals by
                                                        > what it undertook today. We should not view this merely from a
                                                        >
                                                        > 1. Richard Karutz, MD, an ear specialist whose children attended the
                                                        > school.
                                                        > 2. The occupation of the Rhineland is referred to here.
                                                        >
                                                        > cursory political standpoint, but from a historical political perspective.
                                                        > What France is doing today is something like death
                                                        > throes—of course in history such things last a longer time—the
                                                        > death throes of a people in decline and in the process of disappearing
                                                        > from earthly development. Such views arise, of course, from
                                                        > spiritual observation of European history. The French nature is, in
                                                        > a sense, an initial wave of the demise of Romanism—the demise
                                                        > of the Romantic peoples of Europe. Naturally, the Spanish and
                                                        > Italian portions have somewhat more life than the French, who
                                                        > have the least life among the Romantic population.
                                                        > We can clearly see the decadence of French culture in the language.
                                                        > Among the common languages of Europe, French is the
                                                        > language that, in a sense, most forces the human soul to the surface.
                                                        > It is the language in which it is possible (and this is a paradox)
                                                        > to lie in the most honest way. In that language, it is easiest to
                                                        > lie in the most naïve and honest way, because it lacks any real connection
                                                        > with the inner human being. French is spoken entirely at
                                                        > the surface of the human being.
                                                        > Consequently, the French language, and thus the French nature,
                                                        > has a certain attitude of the soul. The attitude of the French soul is
                                                        > directed by the French language, whereas in German, the soul controls
                                                        > the inner configuration of the language, the mobility of the
                                                        > language. The French language is currently something that paralyzes—
                                                        > it directs the soul. It rapes the soul, and thus makes the soul
                                                        > hollow, so that French culture is hollowed out under the influence
                                                        > of the French language. Those who have a feeling for such things
                                                        > can see that the soul does not speak in French culture, only a petrified
                                                        > formalism has a voice. The difference is that, in speaking
                                                        > French, the language rules the speaker. The infinite freedom possible
                                                        > in German, and that we should use more than we normally do,
                                                        > that enables you, for instance, to put the subject in any position,
                                                        > depending upon your inner life, does not exist in French.
                                                        > The reason Germany has brought French into education is not
                                                        > due to pedagogy; we do not teach French in our schools for any
                                                        > pedagogical reasons. We teach it because what was considered useful
                                                        > for a certain group of young people was modified and masked
                                                        > when the old college preparatory high school system was replaced
                                                        > by a number of modern institutions. It is significant that people
                                                        > believed what was available in the old system through Latin could
                                                        > be found in French. People had assumed French had a pedagogical
                                                        > effectiveness similar to that of Latin. That is, however, not true.
                                                        > Latin has a kind of inner logic and brings logic to people instinctively.
                                                        > That is not true of French, which has slipped into clichés
                                                        > and is no longer based on logic. It is only clichés—such things
                                                        > must be stated in a radical way—so that learning French brings a
                                                        > great deal to the surface in children, and that is why a desire to
                                                        > remove French from education has gradually arisen. It is obvious
                                                        > that French will disappear from education in the future.
                                                        > In the Waldorf School, which exists to make a radical new
                                                        > beginning, we have a different perspective. The school can make a
                                                        > beginning only through the understanding our teachers have for
                                                        > the character of the French language, in that they teach it with an
                                                        > awareness that they are actually teaching something decadent. You
                                                        > do not have to tell that to the children, but we certainly should be
                                                        > clear about it. We are clear about it, but from a different perspective,
                                                        > it is completely out of the question that we here at the Waldorf
                                                        > School begin by fighting to remove French from the
                                                        > curriculum. We cannot do that for purely external reasons. We do
                                                        > not yet have an independent cultural life. We have, of course, a
                                                        > Waldorf School pedagogy based upon the idea of an independent
                                                        > cultural life, but that is only an ideal that we cannot completely
                                                        > implement under the present conditions.
                                                        > For that reason, we had to sign a declaration when we founded
                                                        > the Waldorf School in which we agreed we would always meet the
                                                        > learning goals of the public schools at appropriate stages. For
                                                        > instance, we have to insure that our nine-year-old children meet the
                                                        > learning goals of the public third grades. We are pedagogically free
                                                        > for periods of three years. In general, we would place ourselves in an
                                                        > impossible position if we did not fulfill these responsibilities. We
                                                        > cannot keep our children from being able to transfer to another
                                                        > educational institution through testing. If we did that, we would
                                                        > rob our children of the possibility of finding their own path in life.
                                                        > There is, therefore, nothing we can do other than attempt to bring
                                                        > as much of the ideal Waldorf pedagogy as possible into the school.
                                                        > We cannot go further than the possibilities allow. If the building in
                                                        > Dornach had not burned down, we would still have been far from
                                                        > obtaining accreditation for the Dornach University. We could not
                                                        > have given doctoral diplomas. Since we must take into account that
                                                        > those children who complete our school may transfer into other
                                                        > learning institutions and universities, we have to allow them to
                                                        > meet learning goals at a particular age.
                                                        > All this assumes that we teach foreign languages the way we do
                                                        > for inner pedagogical and psychological reasons. Seen from outside,
                                                        > people could say we do not need to begin teaching foreign
                                                        > languages as early as we do. If, however, we are to achieve in a
                                                        > pedagogical
                                                        > way what eighteen-year-old boys and girls need of foreign
                                                        > languages for their final examinations, there is nothing else we can
                                                        > do. Under the assumption that it is justifiable that our children
                                                        > achieve a certain level of education, we must form foreign language
                                                        > instruction as we have. We must swallow the bitter pill of
                                                        > French until we can do something else.
                                                        > That brings me to what is of primary importance for the work of
                                                        > our movement. You see, well-intended people are always asking our
                                                        > movement to undertake this or that remedy. In the area of medicine,
                                                        > people make all kinds of demands. We need to take the position
                                                        > that we cannot do such things individually, but only through
                                                        > major movements. We have begun to develop medicine in the light
                                                        > of an independent cultural life. Thus, in such a question where we
                                                        > can best find the pedagogical basis through the practical experiences
                                                        > of the Waldorf School, a major movement would need to begin. A
                                                        > single private school, where the light of life could be instantly
                                                        > snuffed out if it undertook such things, cannot do it.
                                                        > Aside from that, we could not accomplish much. Whether or not
                                                        > our students learned French would make little difference in the cultural
                                                        > status of the German empire. In contrast, a major cultural
                                                        > deed could occur if people overcame all the things connected with
                                                        > the false valuing of French in Middle Europe through a genuine
                                                        > understanding of the things I mentioned and Dr. Karutz also indicated.
                                                        > If people saw that and it became part of their flesh and blood,
                                                        > and if, therefore, the French language disappeared from the schools
                                                        > in a healthy way, then that would be a path toward a major cultural
                                                        > deed. A cultural movement directed toward removing French from
                                                        > the schools could begin that in a proper way while retaining a
                                                        > proper appreciation of French itself. Today, it is no longer valid to
                                                        > teach French for practical reasons. I do not believe that was true
                                                        > even before the war. In countries outside France, people respected
                                                        > French and valued it in teaching, not because of its commercial
                                                        > significance,
                                                        > but because it was used as the language of diplomacy, and
                                                        > because it was used in conversation in the salons of the so-called
                                                        > better circles in society. That, too, came from using French in diplomacy.
                                                        > If this was done with the necessary force and motivation, it
                                                        > could kill two birds with one stone by hitting the decadence of both
                                                        > French and diplomacy. It could show that diplomacy is just as decadent,
                                                        > because it is necessary to lie when being diplomatic. In war,
                                                        > success results in surrounding the opposing forces. The technique of
                                                        > winning a war is to mislead the opponent. Diplomacy is well
                                                        > described by a peculiar statement, namely, “War is the continuation
                                                        > of policies by other means,” something as insightful as “Divorce is a
                                                        > continuation of marriage by other means.” Diplomacy consists of
                                                        > using the same means, but at a different level, as those used to mislead
                                                        > the opponent in war. In this case, a language that can mislead
                                                        > others is required. Nietzsche made a major error when he spoke of
                                                        > the German language as the language of deception. The French language
                                                        > is not the language of deception, but the language of stupefaction
                                                        > that actually brings people outside themselves. Someone
                                                        > who is enthusiastic about speaking French seems like someone who
                                                        > is not quite in control of themselves. That is, of course, expressed in
                                                        > an extreme way. You need to look at things that way, otherwise you
                                                        > will not come to the subtle feelings you need to present in teaching
                                                        > French.
                                                        > The parents of the Waldorf children can be very sure that we will
                                                        > contribute nothing to the false estimation of the French language.
                                                        > However, we do live under the compulsion of the state and, for that
                                                        > reason, cannot include anything in the constitution of our Waldorf
                                                        > School that would do anything against the French language. We
                                                        > depend upon the creation of a major cultural movement in this
                                                        > regard, one that is objective, one that at some time can also present
                                                        > these views and that values spirituality. If we were to once begin
                                                        > such an action, then we would see that a much different culture
                                                        > would replace today’s. It is important to put forward the differences
                                                        > in evaluation of the languages. We would win some trust and
                                                        > strength from certain people for the mission the German language
                                                        > still has in Western civilization. However, people would still need a
                                                        > feeling for what is declining or rising in the language. In the German
                                                        > language, many elements are still positively developing,
                                                        > although, since High German entered, there is much that can no
                                                        > longer develop. We still have the inner strength to transform words.
                                                        > Under certain circumstances, we can still transform words that have
                                                        > petrified in the substantive into verbs. I have used the word kraften
                                                        > as a verbal form of kraft.3 And we may also do similar things. People
                                                        > understand them. German still has a lot of inner strength. French
                                                        > no longer has that. Everything is prescribed. When language takes
                                                        > over everything, it corrupts the human soul.
                                                        > That is what I have to say, Dr. Karutz. You see, we understand
                                                        > your request, but our hands are tied. At the moment, we cannot
                                                        > really discuss the question."
                                                        >
                                                         
                                                        Incredible insight? He seems rather pissed off at France having occupied the Rheinland. O well, my French is piss-poor, but I do know a few other languages and agree with Chomsky that no human language is superior to another. Take logic: My wife is studying German and the words "kaufen" and "verkaufen" came up. In English they are "buy" and "sell", Spanish "comprar" and "vender", in both cases completely different words, whereas the German is logical. But take th German "mit" and "ohne" - English "with" and "without". Which is more logical?
                                                        About the above rave by Steiner sounding like Bradford: During those meetings with teachers no stenographer was present and the passages are patched together from notes of the attendees. We don't really know exactly what Steiner said or how he said it, or even if he did say it. This all goes back to my original comment regretting the sub-race stuff (in general) - or rather lectures during which no professional stenographer did the recording. What do you really think about the passage, Jean-Marc?
                                                        Bientot,
                                                        Frank    
                                                         



                                                        Frank Thomas Smith
                                                        http://SouthernCrossReview.org


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                                                      • write3chairs
                                                        ... Which would work beautifully in this sort of scenario: A healthy social life is found only, when in the mirror of each soul the whole community finds its
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , May 23 12:53 PM
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          > Frank wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > >And the Threefold Society - remember?
                                                          >
                                                          > That's anarchism.
                                                          >
                                                          > Tarjei

                                                          Which would work beautifully in this sort of scenario:

                                                          "A healthy social life is found only, when in the mirror
                                                          of each soul the whole community finds its reflection,
                                                          and when in the whole community the virtue of each one
                                                          is living."

                                                          -- That cool rappin' luvin' doctor dude!
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