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  • laquerencia33@sbcglobal.net
    First TV in a Mennonite Family by Julia Kasdorf 1968 The lid of the Chevy trunk couldn t close on that wooden console with a jade screen and gold flecks in the
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 25, 2007
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      First TV in a Mennonite Family
      by Julia Kasdorf



      1968

      The lid of the Chevy trunk couldn't close
      on that wooden console with a jade screen
      and gold flecks in the fabric over the speaker.

      They sent us to bed then set it up
      in the basement, as far from our rooms
      and the dinner table as they could get,

      out of sight for grandparents' visits.
      The first morning, Mother studied the guide
      and chose Captain Kangaroo for me,

      but when we turned it on, the point of light
      on the screen grew into black-and-white men
      lifting a stretcher into the back of an ambulance.

      Each click of the huge, plastic knob
      flashed the same men, the same ambulance door
      propped back like a broken wing.

      After that, we were forbidden to watch everything
      except the Captain and "I Love Lucy."
      Yet, when Dad returned from business in Chicago,

      I heard him tell Mom how police beat the kids
      under his hotel window, and I knew whatever it was,
      that vague, distant war had finally come.
    • dottie zold
      Hi Friends, I was just thinking how amazing it is to get a feeling for the Soul s work and the Spirit s work. In real time there doesn t seem to be a great
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 25, 2007
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        Hi Friends,

        I was just thinking how amazing it is to get a feeling
        for the Soul's work and the Spirit's work. In real
        time there doesn't seem to be a great understanding of
        how these two are different and how they work
        together.

        The Soul we find has feelings, the Spirit, thinking.
        And when from a Soul point of view we knock on the
        door of the Spirit we are better able to understand
        the daily workings of our senses. But who knocks on
        the door of their Spirit in times of trouble. We seem
        to go everywhere else but our very own Spirit that
        truly has the goods on what is in our highest interest
        on this path of transformation.

        And it matters how we relate to others: from the Soul
        or from the Spirit. Teachers who are able to hold
        their integrity with their students seem to work from
        Spirit while their students mostly work from Soul. And
        when we have the teacher working from Soul to the Soul
        of the student is when we have chaos occurring on all
        levels. For the Soul is still undeveloped for the most
        part and unaware of the chaotic manners of its being.
        And that is why this Spirit is so needed. The Spirit
        shares with us in our deepest darkest hour how to lift
        ourselves, rise ourselves, to a new level of
        understanding, of feeling, something more connected
        with the Spirit.

        I think it strange now that we use the term Soul
        mates. Funny to me because there is so much drama in
        the soul until it is purified. So it seems it would be
        good to have an understanding of Spirit mates:) and I
        must think this is what Rilke was speaking of when he
        said that the lovers are preparing themselves. He said
        love is wasted on the young. And I imagine its because
        of this great lack of true understanding of who we are
        and what our true motives are in this love and in
        life.

        So my question to my friends is 'can we be aware of
        when we are working out of Soul and when we are
        working out of Spirit'? And then my question would be
        'can we see the difference of when we do this'?

        All good things,
        Dottie

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • dottie zold
        You know, then my question would be do we really even get that we do have a Spirit ? I mean I know people talk about it, but what does it really mean on the
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 25, 2007
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          You know, then my question would be 'do we really even get that we
          do have a Spirit'? I mean I know people talk about it, but what does
          it really mean on the ground? How does one work with this Spirit is
          another question that came to me as well.

          Working with the teachers of mankind we can come to an understanding
          that we can be stubborn in our decisions from a Soul level to get
          what we want, but the Spirit is still standing by there just waiting
          to be acknowledged. I mean OUR SPIRIT is right here with us. This is
          a real part of ourselves connected to the higher worlds. And it is
          mostly silent. But our Soul,(cognitive feelings) when it turns
          upwards to our Spirit, (cognitive thought) has a meeting of sorts.
          And it is not alone. It seems the great teachers of mankind are
          there to help facilitate this meeting. And not only that but others
          who are participatory in our lives also are able to be present in
          some ways. This seems to depend on what the Soul need is at the
          time. Funny huh.

          All good things,
          Dottie


          > Hi Friends,
          >
          > I was just thinking how amazing it is to get a feeling
          > for the Soul's work and the Spirit's work. In real
          > time there doesn't seem to be a great understanding of
          > how these two are different and how they work
          > together.
          >
          > The Soul we find has feelings, the Spirit, thinking.
          > And when from a Soul point of view we knock on the
          > door of the Spirit we are better able to understand
          > the daily workings of our senses. But who knocks on
          > the door of their Spirit in times of trouble. We seem
          > to go everywhere else but our very own Spirit that
          > truly has the goods on what is in our highest interest
          > on this path of transformation.
          >
          > And it matters how we relate to others: from the Soul
          > or from the Spirit. Teachers who are able to hold
          > their integrity with their students seem to work from
          > Spirit while their students mostly work from Soul. And
          > when we have the teacher working from Soul to the Soul
          > of the student is when we have chaos occurring on all
          > levels. For the Soul is still undeveloped for the most
          > part and unaware of the chaotic manners of its being.
          > And that is why this Spirit is so needed. The Spirit
          > shares with us in our deepest darkest hour how to lift
          > ourselves, rise ourselves, to a new level of
          > understanding, of feeling, something more connected
          > with the Spirit.
          >
          > I think it strange now that we use the term Soul
          > mates. Funny to me because there is so much drama in
          > the soul until it is purified. So it seems it would be
          > good to have an understanding of Spirit mates:) and I
          > must think this is what Rilke was speaking of when he
          > said that the lovers are preparing themselves. He said
          > love is wasted on the young. And I imagine its because
          > of this great lack of true understanding of who we are
          > and what our true motives are in this love and in
          > life.
          >
          > So my question to my friends is 'can we be aware of
          > when we are working out of Soul and when we are
          > working out of Spirit'? And then my question would be
          > 'can we see the difference of when we do this'?
          >
          > All good things,
          > Dottie
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
        • Frank Smith
          ... I would say that we are always working out of the soul (as you put it), and whether what we do is positive, progessive or not depends on what the soul is
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 26, 2007
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            --- dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

            > Hi Friends,
            >
            > I was just thinking how amazing it is to get a
            > feeling
            > for the Soul's work and the Spirit's work. In real
            > time there doesn't seem to be a great understanding
            > of
            > how these two are different and how they work
            > together.
            >
            > The Soul we find has feelings, the Spirit, thinking.
            > And when from a Soul point of view we knock on the
            > door of the Spirit we are better able to understand
            > the daily workings of our senses. But who knocks on
            > the door of their Spirit in times of trouble. We
            > seem
            > to go everywhere else but our very own Spirit that
            > truly has the goods on what is in our highest
            > interest
            > on this path of transformation.
            >
            > And it matters how we relate to others: from the
            > Soul
            > or from the Spirit. Teachers who are able to hold
            > their integrity with their students seem to work
            > from
            > Spirit while their students mostly work from Soul.
            > And
            > when we have the teacher working from Soul to the
            > Soul
            > of the student is when we have chaos occurring on
            > all
            > levels. For the Soul is still undeveloped for the
            > most
            > part and unaware of the chaotic manners of its
            > being.
            > And that is why this Spirit is so needed. The Spirit
            > shares with us in our deepest darkest hour how to
            > lift
            > ourselves, rise ourselves, to a new level of
            > understanding, of feeling, something more connected
            > with the Spirit.
            >
            > I think it strange now that we use the term Soul
            > mates. Funny to me because there is so much drama in
            > the soul until it is purified. So it seems it would
            > be
            > good to have an understanding of Spirit mates:) and
            > I
            > must think this is what Rilke was speaking of when
            > he
            > said that the lovers are preparing themselves. He
            > said
            > love is wasted on the young. And I imagine its
            > because
            > of this great lack of true understanding of who we
            > are
            > and what our true motives are in this love and in
            > life.
            >
            > So my question to my friends is 'can we be aware of
            > when we are working out of Soul and when we are
            > working out of Spirit'? And then my question would
            > be
            > 'can we see the difference of when we do this'?

            I would say that we are always working out of the soul
            (as you put it), and whether what we do is positive,
            progessive or not depends on what the soul is like, to
            what extent it has developed during life (or lives),
            influenced by life's experiences and, yes, the spirit
            (I). Love is wasted on the young? Yeah, because they
            experience it most compellingly, but don't know what
            the hell to do with it.
            Frank



            Frank Thomas Smith
            http://SouthernCrossReview.org

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          • write3chairs
            ... Why might we be on a similar wavelength, Dottie? I quoted Rilke in my journal this morning. Once we realize that even between the closest human beings
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 26, 2007
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              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold wrote:

              > I think it strange now that we use the term Soul
              > mates. Funny to me because there is so much drama in
              > the soul until it is purified. So it seems it would be
              > good to have an understanding of Spirit mates:) and I
              > must think this is what Rilke was speaking of when he
              > said that the lovers are preparing themselves. He said
              > love is wasted on the young. And I imagine its because
              > of this great lack of true understanding of who we are
              > and what our true motives are in this love and in
              > life.

              Why might we be on a similar wavelength, Dottie?
              I quoted Rilke in my journal this morning.

              "Once we realize that even between the closest human
              beings infinite distances continue to exist, a wonderful
              living side by side can grow up if they succeed in loving
              the distance between them, which makes it possible
              for each to see the other whole against the sky."

              In light of what you pointed to, that "love is wasted
              on the young," what is he saying here about how
              "a wonderful living side by side can grow up"?

              > So my question to my friends is 'can we be aware of
              > when we are working out of Soul and when we are
              > working out of Spirit'? And then my question would be
              > 'can we see the difference of when we do this'?

              I had a conversation with a friend yesterday. We sat
              at a picnic table in a park, just before sundown.
              I shared with her something that's been on my heart
              and mind, an important thing, yet I have no idea whether
              I'm working it out of Soul or Spirit, or whether "I"
              am even the one working it out to begin with! But still,
              it has been weighing on me for days now. Organizations
              are impersonal entities that are started by people,
              populated by people, run by people. But what about the
              organizations themselves. What are they? We often picture
              a face, or faces, when we think of a particular group.
              But that one face, or group of faces, is not the actual
              group. Or is it? What has me thinking along these lines
              is conflicts that break out between people who represent
              organizations, or groups - communities of people. I heard
              a guy railing against the "medical community" for some
              perceived wrong; the lady sitting next to him was a
              dedicated nurse, and took offense. I witnessed a friend
              verbally attack another friend, simply because she holds
              a different political view. Who do I defend, if anyone?
              I could go on, but I think what I'm getting at is wouldn't
              it be nice if people could look beyond organizations and
              groups and communities and what they represent, and seek
              to communicate ideas in a nonthreatening, noncombative way?

              Still dreaming, as always ...

              Jennifer

              > All good things,
              > Dottie
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
            • Mike helsher
              ... I think the difference can be experienced in what it feels like to say to yourself, I m an American , as opposed to, I am fully Human . Of coarse to
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 26, 2007
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                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                >

                >
                > So my question to my friends is 'can we be aware of
                > when we are working out of Soul and when we are
                > working out of Spirit'? And then my question would be
                > 'can we see the difference of when we do this'?

                I think the difference can be experienced in what it feels like to
                say to yourself, "I'm an American", as opposed to, "I am fully Human".

                Of coarse to actually feel deeply into these statements requires the
                ability to think deeply into these statements. To think deeply
                requires a kind of death also, and death tends to scare the shit out
                of most people. The thinking, IMO, that is required to say "I'm an
                American" is shallow at best, and really doesn't require much inner
                surrender (death). Thus again IMO, Those who identify more with
                being "Americans" tend to externalize death, and want to make others
                surrender (to American style Freedumb for instance).

                For me, Christ exemplified what it might mean to be "fully human". To
                truly think for myself, is to die to the material world. And then to
                let those thoughts die as well.

                But something always gets ressurected out of thoughts. Even for those
                who don't think at all.

                Mike
              • dottie zold
                Hey Frank, thanks for this. It got me to contemplating the dilema I have had for years in placing the sentient soul, intellectual soul, and consciousness
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 27, 2007
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                  Hey Frank, thanks for this. It got me to contemplating the dilema I
                  have had for years in placing the 'sentient soul, intellectual soul,
                  and consciousness soul'. If you would help me out a second I would
                  appreciate it.

                  So, can it be said that within the Soul there are these three
                  aspects so noted above? These all exist within the Soul sphere? And
                  can it be understood that each of these unfold at the seven year
                  periods or not? (Well, that's just an add on that occurred to me
                  right now) So if these 3 exist within the Soul then I CAN see how
                  you would say that we are always working out of Soul. And then my
                  question would be about the 'spirit embryo'. From whence does this
                  come?

                  Well, first! please let me know if it can be understood that the
                  three aspects of the Soul are within the Soul its very self? I know
                  this might sound silly or even naive or even maybe 'how long have
                  you been studying Steiner:) but I get it when I get it and not a
                  damn day before! And I was thinking about this you know. I was
                  thinking how one can speak on it and act like they know it but I
                  haven't been able to operate in that manner. It's like if I don't
                  experience it in my understanding through a direct experience, it
                  really means nothing to me. And it seems somehow I have worked
                  assbackwards in this way. I imagine it has something to do with me
                  being a How To Know Higher Worlds girl versus a Philosophy of
                  Freedom girl. But that's all good.

                  Thanks for your help,
                  d

                  p.s. I was also thinking, from time to time, how I reminded you of
                  that gal who thought her husband was taking up by aliens. I mean
                  really Frank. What could you have been thinking!!!

                  Frank:
                  > I would say that we are always working out of the soul
                  > (as you put it), and whether what we do is positive,
                  > progessive or not depends on what the soul is like, to
                  > what extent it has developed during life (or lives),
                  > influenced by life's experiences and, yes, the spirit
                  > (I). Love is wasted on the young? Yeah, because they
                  > experience it most compellingly, but don't know what
                  > the hell to do with it.
                  > Frank
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Frank Thomas Smith
                  > http://SouthernCrossReview.org
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                • dottie zold
                  Hey Jen, I think if spirit work was mainstream, a basic understanding of why the hell! we are here in the first place, and what this has to do with the other,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 27, 2007
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                    Hey Jen,

                    I think if spirit work was mainstream, a basic understanding of why
                    the hell! we are here in the first place, and what this has to do
                    with the other, we would be seeing more contemplative thinking
                    before we opened our mouth. We would approach each other
                    differently I think. And its even difficult for those that do have a
                    spirit approach/outlook to live life in this manner. I mean we get
                    caught in this Luciferic/Ahrimanic weaving that we are not even
                    aware of their seduction to seperation.

                    Groups are particularly difficult. I mean they really require a
                    thoughtful considerate approach to the questions or needs before
                    them. It's such an egg walk to me most times that I just can't bear
                    it. I can't bear to see people in the same room disregarding the
                    sensitivities of the other. And yet karma almost demands that we
                    meet to work these things out even in their ugliness.

                    And its almost like the troubled group has to set a way of being
                    with one another at the beginning of each meeting. And the healthy
                    group too. There has to be this agreement to disagree but still have
                    to come to an agreement. And its kinda like if we have this agreeing
                    to disagree with the goal of an agreement at the end we can bear
                    others differences. If we don't have this at the outset lots of
                    people feel nauseated.

                    It seems to me Rilke's 'growing up' comment is about consciousness.
                    A human being willing to work towards being awake to the things
                    around him and entering into their becomings in a way. Kinda like
                    Goethe.

                    All good things Jen,
                    Dottie


                    > > I think it strange now that we use the term Soul
                    > > mates. Funny to me because there is so much drama in
                    > > the soul until it is purified. So it seems it would be
                    > > good to have an understanding of Spirit mates:) and I
                    > > must think this is what Rilke was speaking of when he
                    > > said that the lovers are preparing themselves. He said
                    > > love is wasted on the young. And I imagine its because
                    > > of this great lack of true understanding of who we are
                    > > and what our true motives are in this love and in
                    > > life.
                    >
                    > Why might we be on a similar wavelength, Dottie?
                    > I quoted Rilke in my journal this morning.
                    >
                    > "Once we realize that even between the closest human
                    > beings infinite distances continue to exist, a wonderful
                    > living side by side can grow up if they succeed in loving
                    > the distance between them, which makes it possible
                    > for each to see the other whole against the sky."
                    >
                    > In light of what you pointed to, that "love is wasted
                    > on the young," what is he saying here about how
                    > "a wonderful living side by side can grow up"?
                    >
                    > > So my question to my friends is 'can we be aware of
                    > > when we are working out of Soul and when we are
                    > > working out of Spirit'? And then my question would be
                    > > 'can we see the difference of when we do this'?
                    >
                    > I had a conversation with a friend yesterday. We sat
                    > at a picnic table in a park, just before sundown.
                    > I shared with her something that's been on my heart
                    > and mind, an important thing, yet I have no idea whether
                    > I'm working it out of Soul or Spirit, or whether "I"
                    > am even the one working it out to begin with! But still,
                    > it has been weighing on me for days now. Organizations
                    > are impersonal entities that are started by people,
                    > populated by people, run by people. But what about the
                    > organizations themselves. What are they? We often picture
                    > a face, or faces, when we think of a particular group.
                    > But that one face, or group of faces, is not the actual
                    > group. Or is it? What has me thinking along these lines
                    > is conflicts that break out between people who represent
                    > organizations, or groups - communities of people. I heard
                    > a guy railing against the "medical community" for some
                    > perceived wrong; the lady sitting next to him was a
                    > dedicated nurse, and took offense. I witnessed a friend
                    > verbally attack another friend, simply because she holds
                    > a different political view. Who do I defend, if anyone?
                    > I could go on, but I think what I'm getting at is wouldn't
                    > it be nice if people could look beyond organizations and
                    > groups and communities and what they represent, and seek
                    > to communicate ideas in a nonthreatening, noncombative way?
                    >
                    > Still dreaming, as always ...
                    >
                    > Jennifer
                    >
                    > > All good things,
                    > > Dottie
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________________________
                    > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    > >
                    >
                  • kmlightseeker
                    Hi Dottie, ... Yeah, seems like it. Some interesting soul/spirit/consciousness passages: Nous: A term popularized by Plato meaning the higher self. The Nous
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 28, 2007
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                      Hi Dottie,


                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                      <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Friends,
                      >
                      > I was just thinking how amazing it is to get a feeling
                      > for the Soul's work and the Spirit's work. In real
                      > time there doesn't seem to be a great understanding of
                      > how these two are different and how they work
                      > together.


                      Yeah, seems like it.

                      Some interesting soul/spirit/consciousness passages:

                      "Nous: A term popularized by Plato meaning the higher self. The Nous
                      is the higher, spiritual aspect of each person and is differentiated
                      from the soul and personality. Some might consider it the spark of the
                      divine within each person."

                      (From: http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/term/Nous )


                      "Man seeks ever to increase his knowledge, but tends to overlook the
                      fact that his mind must forget as it learns. Knowledge comes to us,
                      but it is a knowledge gained through narrow left-brain cognitive
                      abilities, though exclusion, partiality and fragmentation, and not
                      from seeing the world as it actually is. Dream is the closest most of
                      us come to the reservoir of ancestral knowledge and knowing, to that
                      "Akashic Record" which lies within the unconscious. and on a
                      biologically cellular level. When we finally manage to consciously
                      utilize our Right-Brain capacities, we will, like the ancients, be
                      able to see reality as it is, and end the "subject versus object"
                      dichotomy, which holds us from a true and direct rapport with life."

                      (From: "The Subversive Use of Sacred Symbolism in the Media - Symbol
                      Literacy (Part One)."
                      http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2005/09sep/symbolism.html )




                      >
                      > The Soul we find has feelings, the Spirit, thinking.
                      > And when from a Soul point of view we knock on the
                      > door of the Spirit we are better able to understand
                      > the daily workings of our senses. But who knocks on
                      > the door of their Spirit in times of trouble. We seem
                      > to go everywhere else but our very own Spirit that
                      > truly has the goods on what is in our highest interest
                      > on this path of transformation.


                      I would agree.



                      Regards,

                      Keith


                      >
                      > And it matters how we relate to others: from the Soul
                      > or from the Spirit. Teachers who are able to hold
                      > their integrity with their students seem to work from
                      > Spirit while their students mostly work from Soul. And
                      > when we have the teacher working from Soul to the Soul
                      > of the student is when we have chaos occurring on all
                      > levels. For the Soul is still undeveloped for the most
                      > part and unaware of the chaotic manners of its being.
                      > And that is why this Spirit is so needed. The Spirit
                      > shares with us in our deepest darkest hour how to lift
                      > ourselves, rise ourselves, to a new level of
                      > understanding, of feeling, something more connected
                      > with the Spirit.
                      >
                      > I think it strange now that we use the term Soul
                      > mates. Funny to me because there is so much drama in
                      > the soul until it is purified. So it seems it would be
                      > good to have an understanding of Spirit mates:) and I
                      > must think this is what Rilke was speaking of when he
                      > said that the lovers are preparing themselves. He said
                      > love is wasted on the young. And I imagine its because
                      > of this great lack of true understanding of who we are
                      > and what our true motives are in this love and in
                      > life.
                      >
                      > So my question to my friends is 'can we be aware of
                      > when we are working out of Soul and when we are
                      > working out of Spirit'? And then my question would be
                      > 'can we see the difference of when we do this'?
                      >
                      > All good things,
                      > Dottie
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                    • Jean-Marc Nguyen
                      Hey Dottie --- how long have you been studying Steiner --- anyway? No offense intended! Merely teasing :-))) I m quite sure you ll find many answers to your
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 28, 2007
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                        Hey Dottie --- "how long have you been studying Steiner" --- anyway?
                         
                        No offense intended! Merely teasing :-)))
                         
                        I'm quite sure you'll find many answers to your questions --- in very
                        concrete terms --- in Rudolf Steiner's *Theosophy* [GA 9].
                         
                        21-28: Sentient Soul
                        28-35: Intellectual Soul
                        35-42: Consciousness Soul
                         
                        And yes, the *Three Marys* are the personifications of the three aspects
                        [or the three stages of development] of every human soul.
                         
                        Jean-Marc
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:19 AM
                        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Spirit and Soul

                        Hey Frank, thanks for this. It got me to contemplating the dilema I
                        have had for years in placing the 'sentient soul, intellectual soul,
                        and consciousness soul'. If you would help me out a second I would
                        appreciate it.

                        So, can it be said that within the Soul there are these three
                        aspects so noted above? These all exist within the Soul sphere? And
                        can it be understood that each of these unfold at the seven year
                        periods or not? (Well, that's just an add on that occurred to me
                        right now) So if these 3 exist within the Soul then I CAN see how
                        you would say that we are always working out of Soul. And then my
                        question would be about the 'spirit embryo'. From whence does this
                        come?

                        Well, first! please let me know if it can be understood that the
                        three aspects of the Soul are within the Soul its very self? I know
                        this might sound silly or even naive or even maybe 'how long have
                        you been studying Steiner:) but I get it when I get it and not a
                        damn day before! And I was thinking about this you know. I was
                        thinking how one can speak on it and act like they know it but I
                        haven't been able to operate in that manner. It's like if I don't
                        experience it in my understanding through a direct experience, it
                        really means nothing to me. And it seems somehow I have worked
                        assbackwards in this way. I imagine it has something to do with me
                        being a How To Know Higher Worlds girl versus a Philosophy of
                        Freedom girl. But that's all good.

                        Thanks for your help,
                        d

                        p.s. I was also thinking, from time to time, how I reminded you of
                        that gal who thought her husband was taking up by aliens. I mean
                        really Frank. What could you have been thinking!!!

                        Frank:
                        > I would say that we are always working out of the soul
                        > (as you put it), and whether what we do is positive,
                        > progessive or not depends on what the soul is like, to
                        > what extent it has developed during life (or lives),
                        > influenced by life's experiences and, yes, the spirit
                        > (I). Love is wasted on the young? Yeah, because they
                        > experience it most compellingly, but don't know what
                        > the hell to do with it.
                        > Frank
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Frank Thomas Smith
                        > http://SouthernCros sReview.org
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail. yahoo.com
                        >

                      • dottie zold
                        Hi Jean Marc, See to me saying the three Marys are the personifications gets me in the abstract zone and not personal to my own Soul. There s something about
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 28, 2007
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                          Hi Jean Marc,

                          See to me saying 'the three Marys' are the
                          personifications gets me in the abstract zone and not
                          personal to my own Soul. There's something about
                          'experiencing' this knowledge versus 'speaking' this
                          knowledge that is the nitty gritty of my path. And I
                          just can't just 'speak' it, I need to experience it
                          within my understanding. I'm thinking that probably
                          doesn't make any sense to anyone but for me I am
                          really beginning to experience this 'weaving' of sorts
                          that is undefinable in a way. And one can say 'oh
                          don't define it' but it's more than the human
                          understanding of 'defining'. There is this livingness
                          to this knowledge that seems to really have a place of
                          departure within each of these three aspects of
                          Sentient, Intellectual, and Consciousness Souls.

                          Maybe I can experience the Sentient Soul within the
                          Root area of the Chakra, the Intellectual Soul
                          actually in the Solar plexus, (strange to be thinking
                          so though therefore I am not sure yet) and the
                          Conciousness Soul in the Heart Chakra area or maybe
                          just between the heart and the Throat Chakra. And then
                          the Spirit would be more from within the 'Third Eye'
                          Chakra which would then affect the Crown Chakra. What
                          do you think of that? I mean they feel like they have
                          specific places in a way within the body's sphere of
                          being.

                          And what about the 'spirit embryo' Jean Marc? Where be
                          this, from whence have you experienced its becoming?

                          I've been studying Rudolf Steiner and others for about
                          12 or 13 years now. I think its been more of a
                          study/contemplation than a full on 'study' like in
                          intellectual terms. And I'm not offended. I am quite
                          aware that I am probably considered one of the least
                          of Rudolf Steiner's students by my friends in terms of
                          being able to speak in Anthroposophical terms. And
                          that's all good. My way of working is different and
                          I'm okay with that.

                          Good to hear from you,
                          Dottie



                          --- Jean-Marc Nguyen <jmnguyen@...> wrote:

                          > Hey Dottie --- "how long have you been studying
                          > Steiner" --- anyway?
                          >
                          > No offense intended! Merely teasing :-)))
                          >
                          > I'm quite sure you'll find many answers to your
                          > questions --- in very
                          > concrete terms --- in Rudolf Steiner's *Theosophy*
                          > [GA 9].
                          >
                          > 21-28: Sentient Soul
                          > 28-35: Intellectual Soul
                          > 35-42: Consciousness Soul
                          >
                          > And yes, the *Three Marys* are the personifications
                          > of the three aspects
                          > [or the three stages of development] of every human
                          > soul.
                          >
                          > Jean-Marc
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: dottie zold
                          > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:19 AM
                          > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Spirit and
                          > Soul
                          >
                          >
                          > Hey Frank, thanks for this. It got me to
                          > contemplating the dilema I
                          > have had for years in placing the 'sentient soul,
                          > intellectual soul,
                          > and consciousness soul'. If you would help me out
                          > a second I would
                          > appreciate it.
                          >
                          > So, can it be said that within the Soul there are
                          > these three
                          > aspects so noted above? These all exist within the
                          > Soul sphere? And
                          > can it be understood that each of these unfold at
                          > the seven year
                          > periods or not? (Well, that's just an add on that
                          > occurred to me
                          > right now) So if these 3 exist within the Soul
                          > then I CAN see how
                          > you would say that we are always working out of
                          > Soul. And then my
                          > question would be about the 'spirit embryo'. From
                          > whence does this
                          > come?
                          >
                          > Well, first! please let me know if it can be
                          > understood that the
                          > three aspects of the Soul are within the Soul its
                          > very self? I know
                          > this might sound silly or even naive or even maybe
                          > 'how long have
                          > you been studying Steiner:) but I get it when I
                          > get it and not a
                          > damn day before! And I was thinking about this you
                          > know. I was
                          > thinking how one can speak on it and act like they
                          > know it but I
                          > haven't been able to operate in that manner. It's
                          > like if I don't
                          > experience it in my understanding through a direct
                          > experience, it
                          > really means nothing to me. And it seems somehow I
                          > have worked
                          > assbackwards in this way. I imagine it has
                          > something to do with me
                          > being a How To Know Higher Worlds girl versus a
                          > Philosophy of
                          > Freedom girl. But that's all good.
                          >
                          > Thanks for your help,
                          > d
                          >
                          > p.s. I was also thinking, from time to time, how I
                          > reminded you of
                          > that gal who thought her husband was taking up by
                          > aliens. I mean
                          > really Frank. What could you have been thinking!!!
                          >
                          > Frank:
                          > > I would say that we are always working out of
                          > the soul
                          > > (as you put it), and whether what we do is
                          > positive,
                          > > progessive or not depends on what the soul is
                          > like, to
                          > > what extent it has developed during life (or
                          > lives),
                          > > influenced by life's experiences and, yes, the
                          > spirit
                          > > (I). Love is wasted on the young? Yeah, because
                          > they
                          > > experience it most compellingly, but don't know
                          > what
                          > > the hell to do with it.
                          > > Frank
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Frank Thomas Smith
                          > > http://SouthernCrossReview.org
                          > >
                          > >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                          > protection around
                          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


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                        • write3chairs
                          ... a ... have ... agreeing ... Thanks for the response, Dottie. These last few days I ve been thinking a lot more about this loosely knit spiritual family of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 28, 2007
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                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "dottie zold" wrote:

                            > Hey Jen,
                            >
                            > I think if spirit work was mainstream, a basic understanding of why
                            > the hell! we are here in the first place, and what this has to do
                            > with the other, we would be seeing more contemplative thinking
                            > before we opened our mouth. We would approach each other
                            > differently I think. And its even difficult for those that do have
                            a
                            > spirit approach/outlook to live life in this manner. I mean we get
                            > caught in this Luciferic/Ahrimanic weaving that we are not even
                            > aware of their seduction to seperation.
                            >
                            > Groups are particularly difficult. I mean they really require a
                            > thoughtful considerate approach to the questions or needs before
                            > them. It's such an egg walk to me most times that I just can't bear
                            > it. I can't bear to see people in the same room disregarding the
                            > sensitivities of the other. And yet karma almost demands that we
                            > meet to work these things out even in their ugliness.
                            >
                            > And its almost like the troubled group has to set a way of being
                            > with one another at the beginning of each meeting. And the healthy
                            > group too. There has to be this agreement to disagree but still
                            have
                            > to come to an agreement. And its kinda like if we have this
                            agreeing
                            > to disagree with the goal of an agreement at the end we can bear
                            > others differences. If we don't have this at the outset lots of
                            > people feel nauseated.
                            >
                            > It seems to me Rilke's 'growing up' comment is about consciousness.
                            > A human being willing to work towards being awake to the things
                            > around him and entering into their becomings in a way. Kinda like
                            > Goethe.
                            >
                            > All good things Jen,
                            > Dottie

                            Thanks for the response, Dottie. These last few days I've been
                            thinking a lot more about this loosely knit spiritual family of mine,
                            of ours. :) I mean, we have our immediate family. Then we have our
                            other associations, friends, extended family, and whatnot. We're
                            connected to all these people, the ones we cross paths with,
                            karmically; yet the nature of the relationships remains a mystery. I
                            called my friend Susanne earlier today and, as always,
                            we "brightened" each other's day. She's about to go out of town on a
                            rather exciting trip, so I got to be "happy" for her, and she
                            likewise was delighted at my delight. It was just a psychic bright
                            spot, yet gives us both enough light to see just ahead.

                            I hope you are having a good day, Dottie.

                            Love,
                            Jennifer
                          • Jean-Marc Nguyen
                            Hi Jennifer, You wrote: I could go on, but I think what I m getting at is wouldn t it be nice if people could look beyond organizations and groups and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 29, 2007
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                              Hi Jennifer,
                               
                              You wrote:
                               
                              "I could go on, but I think what I'm getting at is wouldn't
                              it be nice if people could look beyond organizations and
                              groups and communities and what they represent, and seek
                              to communicate ideas in a nonthreatening, noncombative way?

                              Still dreaming, as always ..."
                               
                              -------------------------------------------------------------
                               
                              Well Jennifer, as long as *ideas* are to a great extent merely the
                              vehicle of subjective and biased views, the spiritual embodiment of personal
                              or collective selfish interests --- they are bound to be expressed threateningly
                              and combatively, aren't they?
                              And, as you know, the combativeness of *impure ideas* goes far beyond
                              the verbal stage...
                               
                              It seems you are dreaming about Man as an awakened and free Spirit.
                              This dream of yours is the secret dream of the entire planet Earth.
                              But the living nightmare in this world will go on worsening --- as long as
                              mankind will remain [spiritually] sound asleep.
                              A build-up of groups and communities of all sorts and sizes is one very
                              effective way of preventing the *individual* human Spirit from awakening...
                              Think of Nazi Germany or Stalinist USSR, for instance [and all kinds of
                              nationalisms and patriotisms, nowadays].
                              The sheer and inhumane physical brutality merely was the tip of the iceberg
                              --- but their combative *ideas* [or ideologies] spoke volumes: the eradication
                              of *individual* thinking and consciousness [and *group* ideology and
                              consciousness as substitutes].
                              Of course, it's no accident that they appeared precisely when the time was ripe
                              for the Second Coming of *Christ* [the essence of Man, the archetype of Man
                              as a free Individuality, as a spiritual Entity]...
                               
                              Cheers,
                              Jean-Marc

                               
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 5:40 PM
                              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Spirit and Soul

                              --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold wrote:

                              > I think it strange now that we use the term Soul
                              > mates. Funny to me because there is so much drama in
                              > the soul until it is purified. So it seems it would be
                              > good to have an understanding of Spirit mates:) and I
                              > must think this is what Rilke was speaking of when he
                              > said that the lovers are preparing themselves. He said
                              > love is wasted on the young. And I imagine its because
                              > of this great lack of true understanding of who we are
                              > and what our true motives are in this love and in
                              > life.

                              Why might we be on a similar wavelength, Dottie?
                              I quoted Rilke in my journal this morning.

                              "Once we realize that even between the closest human
                              beings infinite distances continue to exist, a wonderful
                              living side by side can grow up if they succeed in loving
                              the distance between them, which makes it possible
                              for each to see the other whole against the sky."

                              In light of what you pointed to, that "love is wasted
                              on the young," what is he saying here about how
                              "a wonderful living side by side can grow up"?

                              > So my question to my friends is 'can we be aware of
                              > when we are working out of Soul and when we are
                              > working out of Spirit'? And then my question would be
                              > 'can we see the difference of when we do this'?

                              I had a conversation with a friend yesterday. We sat
                              at a picnic table in a park, just before sundown.
                              I shared with her something that's been on my heart
                              and mind, an important thing, yet I have no idea whether
                              I'm working it out of Soul or Spirit, or whether "I"
                              am even the one working it out to begin with! But still,
                              it has been weighing on me for days now. Organizations
                              are impersonal entities that are started by people,
                              populated by people, run by people. But what about the
                              organizations themselves. What are they? We often picture
                              a face, or faces, when we think of a particular group.
                              But that one face, or group of faces, is not the actual
                              group. Or is it? What has me thinking along these lines
                              is conflicts that break out between people who represent
                              organizations, or groups - communities of people. I heard
                              a guy railing against the "medical community" for some
                              perceived wrong; the lady sitting next to him was a
                              dedicated nurse, and took offense. I witnessed a friend
                              verbally attack another friend, simply because she holds
                              a different political view. Who do I defend, if anyone?
                              I could go on, but I think what I'm getting at is wouldn't
                              it be nice if people could look beyond organizations and
                              groups and communities and what they represent, and seek
                              to communicate ideas in a nonthreatening, noncombative way?

                              Still dreaming, as always ...

                              Jennifer

                              > All good things,
                              > Dottie
                              >
                              > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                              > Do You Yahoo!?
                              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                              >

                            • Frank Smith
                              ... F: Firstly, I think we should see those three aspects as developing stages in humanity and the individual; in humanity in general we are now in the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 30, 2007
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                                --- dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                                > Hey Frank, thanks for this. It got me to
                                > contemplating the dilema I
                                > have had for years in placing the 'sentient soul,
                                > intellectual soul,
                                > and consciousness soul'. If you would help me out a
                                > second I would
                                > appreciate it.
                                >
                                > So, can it be said that within the Soul there are
                                > these three
                                > aspects so noted above? These all exist within the
                                > Soul sphere? And
                                > can it be understood that each of these unfold at
                                > the seven year
                                > periods or not? (Well, that's just an add on that
                                > occurred to me
                                > right now) So if these 3 exist within the Soul then
                                > I CAN see how
                                > you would say that we are always working out of
                                > Soul. And then my
                                > question would be about the 'spirit embryo'. From
                                > whence does this
                                > come?
                                >
                                > Well, first! please let me know if it can be
                                > understood that the
                                > three aspects of the Soul are within the Soul its
                                > very self? I know
                                > this might sound silly or even naive or even maybe
                                > 'how long have
                                > you been studying Steiner:) but I get it when I get
                                > it and not a
                                > damn day before! And I was thinking about this you
                                > know. I was
                                > thinking how one can speak on it and act like they
                                > know it but I
                                > haven't been able to operate in that manner. It's
                                > like if I don't
                                > experience it in my understanding through a direct
                                > experience, it
                                > really means nothing to me. And it seems somehow I
                                > have worked
                                > assbackwards in this way. I imagine it has something
                                > to do with me
                                > being a How To Know Higher Worlds girl versus a
                                > Philosophy of
                                > Freedom girl. But that's all good.

                                F: Firstly, I think we should see those three aspects
                                as developing stages in humanity and the individual;
                                in humanity in general we are now in the developing
                                consciousness soul stage (which doesn't necessarily
                                mean that everyone is there). In the individual it
                                should occur between 35 and 42 years of age or a bit
                                older - if it occurs at all. (So yes, in 7 year
                                stages) Once the C.S. stage has been reached, the
                                previous stages are still contained within it in
                                higher stages of development than they originally
                                were. Now if we relate the spirit to the I, it is
                                present all along working on the soul stages in order
                                to affect that development.
                                A question for me has been: The characteristics of the
                                soul are thinking, feeling, willing - which implies
                                that the soul thinks. However, the I (spirit) is
                                supposed to be the human element which thinks. The
                                answer to this may be that the astral body (soul) and
                                I (spirit) form a unity in a sense. (Steiner often
                                used the term "Gesistes-seelisch" =
                                spiritual-soul-ish) Therefore, the I enables thinking
                                to take place within the soul.

                                D: p.s. I was also thinking, from time to time, how I
                                > reminded you of
                                > that gal who thought her husband was taking up by
                                > aliens. I mean
                                > really Frank. What could you have been thinking!!!

                                F: Don't remember. Which girl was that and/or when
                                were you kidnapped by aliens?

                                >
                                > Frank:
                                > > I would say that we are always working out of the
                                > soul
                                > > (as you put it), and whether what we do is
                                > positive,
                                > > progessive or not depends on what the soul is
                                > like, to
                                > > what extent it has developed during life (or
                                > lives),
                                > > influenced by life's experiences and, yes, the
                                > spirit
                                > > (I). Love is wasted on the young? Yeah, because
                                > they
                                > > experience it most compellingly, but don't know
                                > what
                                > > the hell to do with it.
                                > > Frank
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Frank Thomas Smith
                                > > http://SouthernCrossReview.org


                                Frank Thomas Smith
                                http://SouthernCrossReview.org

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                              • Frank Smith
                                ... You got it right, Dottie, but I think there s another aspect as well - people not knowing how to conduct themselves in groups, which is something that can
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 30, 2007
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                                  --- dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                                  > Hey Jen,
                                  >
                                  > I think if spirit work was mainstream, a basic
                                  > understanding of why
                                  > the hell! we are here in the first place, and what
                                  > this has to do
                                  > with the other, we would be seeing more
                                  > contemplative thinking
                                  > before we opened our mouth. We would approach each
                                  > other
                                  > differently I think. And its even difficult for
                                  > those that do have a
                                  > spirit approach/outlook to live life in this manner.
                                  > I mean we get
                                  > caught in this Luciferic/Ahrimanic weaving that we
                                  > are not even
                                  > aware of their seduction to seperation.
                                  >
                                  > Groups are particularly difficult. I mean they
                                  > really require a
                                  > thoughtful considerate approach to the questions or
                                  > needs before
                                  > them. It's such an egg walk to me most times that I
                                  > just can't bear
                                  > it. I can't bear to see people in the same room
                                  > disregarding the
                                  > sensitivities of the other. And yet karma almost
                                  > demands that we
                                  > meet to work these things out even in their
                                  > ugliness.
                                  >
                                  > And its almost like the troubled group has to set a
                                  > way of being
                                  > with one another at the beginning of each meeting.
                                  > And the healthy
                                  > group too. There has to be this agreement to
                                  > disagree but still have
                                  > to come to an agreement. And its kinda like if we
                                  > have this agreeing
                                  > to disagree with the goal of an agreement at the end
                                  > we can bear
                                  > others differences. If we don't have this at the
                                  > outset lots of
                                  > people feel nauseated.
                                  >
                                  > It seems to me Rilke's 'growing up' comment is about
                                  > consciousness.
                                  > A human being willing to work towards being awake to
                                  > the things
                                  > around him and entering into their becomings in a
                                  > way. Kinda like
                                  > Goethe.
                                  >


                                  You got it right, Dottie, but I think there's another
                                  aspect as well - people not knowing how to conduct
                                  themselves in groups, which is something that can be
                                  learned and practiced. There are volumes written about
                                  this. You say we must agree. But what if we don't?
                                  This is where things often become conflictive in
                                  anthropop institutions. I consider it naive to think
                                  that we can *always* agree. So what happens if we
                                  don't? "Postponed till next meeting". No good, status
                                  quo. There should be a plan B - which can be decision
                                  by majority if all else fails.
                                  Frank

                                  Frank Thomas Smith
                                  http://SouthernCrossReview.org

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                                • dottie zold
                                  ... Hey Frank, My thought is that we have to agree to disagree and still come to an agreement . And that would mean that a majority rules in the end. But if
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 30, 2007
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                                    Frank:
                                    > You got it right, Dottie, but I think there's
                                    > another
                                    > aspect as well - people not knowing how to conduct
                                    > themselves in groups, which is something that can be
                                    > learned and practiced. There are volumes written
                                    > about
                                    > this. You say we must agree. But what if we don't?
                                    > This is where things often become conflictive in
                                    > anthropop institutions. I consider it naive to think
                                    > that we can *always* agree. So what happens if we
                                    > don't? "Postponed till next meeting". No good,
                                    > status
                                    > quo. There should be a plan B - which can be
                                    > decision
                                    > by majority if all else fails.

                                    Hey Frank,

                                    My thought is that we have to 'agree to disagree and
                                    still come to an agreement'. And that would mean that
                                    a majority rules in the end. But if we have all agree
                                    that we will have disagreements but have to come to an
                                    agreement in any case things are altered in the room.
                                    Or at least this has been my experience. And usually
                                    when we agree to disagree we are acting like adults.
                                    Those that have their hearts set on one way or another
                                    will be those with stick out like sore thumbs. And
                                    that person(s) get to sit in and look at how they are
                                    beholden to one way or another even against all odds:
                                    The personality holds sway versus the eternal being.

                                    Now, not everyone is interested in looking at
                                    themselves so a good beginning for any group can be
                                    words from Rudolf Steiner speaking about the need to
                                    let go of antipathies and sympathies to a thing, the
                                    personal needs, and look towards the eternal that is
                                    not always so obvious.

                                    It's difficult work but my experience is that once
                                    some basic groundrules have been set things move so
                                    much smoother than if they had not. And the basic
                                    groundrule is that we are going to agree to disagree
                                    and yet still come to an agreement.

                                    All good things Frank,
                                    Dottie

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                                  • dottie zold
                                    ... often used the term Gesistes-seelisch = spiritual-soul-ish) Therefore, the I enables thinking to take place within the soul. Hey Frank, I think that is a
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 30, 2007
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                                      Frank:
                                      > A question for me has been: The characteristics of
                                      > the
                                      > soul are thinking, feeling, willing - which implies
                                      > that the soul thinks. However, the I (spirit) is
                                      > supposed to be the human element which thinks. The
                                      > answer to this may be that the astral body (soul)
                                      > and I (spirit) form a unity in a sense. (Steiner
                                      often used the term "Gesistes-seelisch" =
                                      spiritual-soul-ish) Therefore, the I enables thinking
                                      to take place within the soul.

                                      Hey Frank,

                                      I think that is a great question and thought and I
                                      would like to develop it further with some more
                                      questions. Let's see if we can figure this thing out,
                                      bring some reasoning into our spirituality. I mean we
                                      can look at our contemplations on this question and
                                      our experience of this contemplation and see if we
                                      can't move the question further along.

                                      And Frank, so, I am not clear as to your thoughts
                                      about where the 3 soul aspects of man reside within
                                      him. Are they all in the Soul as almost sheaths in a
                                      sense with their own chakras that represent these
                                      three aspects? What do you think? And what does this
                                      Soul have to do with the 'spirit embryo'? Where does
                                      this 'spirit embryo' birth forth from? Is it from
                                      within the Soul's organs/chakras?

                                      You know Dennis Klocek speaks of similar things in his
                                      Seer's Handbook. I am thinking that if one does not
                                      have this book they are at a serious disadvantage to
                                      what is taking place in our time with regards to these
                                      organs. I mean that book is an astounding picture of
                                      one who has done the work on a level I have not seen
                                      anywhere within the Movement. Anywhere.

                                      I'll check in later,
                                      Love,
                                      Dottie


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                                    • write3chairs
                                      ... personal ... threateningly ... beyond ... long as ... very ... awakening... ... kinds of ... iceberg ... eradication ... and ... time was ripe ...
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 1 9:22 AM
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                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Marc Nguyen"
                                        wrote:

                                        > Hi Jennifer,
                                        >
                                        > You wrote:
                                        >
                                        > "I could go on, but I think what I'm getting at is wouldn't
                                        > it be nice if people could look beyond organizations and
                                        > groups and communities and what they represent, and seek
                                        > to communicate ideas in a nonthreatening, noncombative way?
                                        >
                                        > Still dreaming, as always ..."
                                        >
                                        > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Well Jennifer, as long as *ideas* are to a great extent merely the
                                        > vehicle of subjective and biased views, the spiritual embodiment of
                                        personal
                                        > or collective selfish interests --- they are bound to be expressed
                                        threateningly
                                        > and combatively, aren't they?
                                        > And, as you know, the combativeness of *impure ideas* goes far
                                        beyond
                                        > the verbal stage...
                                        >
                                        > It seems you are dreaming about Man as an awakened and free Spirit.
                                        > This dream of yours is the secret dream of the entire planet Earth.
                                        > But the living nightmare in this world will go on worsening --- as
                                        long as
                                        > mankind will remain [spiritually] sound asleep.
                                        > A build-up of groups and communities of all sorts and sizes is one
                                        very
                                        > effective way of preventing the *individual* human Spirit from
                                        awakening...
                                        > Think of Nazi Germany or Stalinist USSR, for instance [and all
                                        kinds of
                                        > nationalisms and patriotisms, nowadays].
                                        > The sheer and inhumane physical brutality merely was the tip of the
                                        iceberg
                                        > --- but their combative *ideas* [or ideologies] spoke volumes: the
                                        eradication
                                        > of *individual* thinking and consciousness [and *group* ideology
                                        and
                                        > consciousness as substitutes].
                                        > Of course, it's no accident that they appeared precisely when the
                                        time was ripe
                                        > for the Second Coming of *Christ* [the essence of Man, the
                                        archetype of Man
                                        > as a free Individuality, as a spiritual Entity]...
                                        >
                                        > Cheers,
                                        > Jean-Marc

                                        Thank you, Jean-Marc, for such a thoughtful response. I think what it
                                        comes down to is that each one of us must summon the courage to
                                        withstand the heat, the fortitude to endure the reality of which you
                                        speak. I have lately been thinking about the dilemma, its nature,
                                        what to do about it. I think it's about reconciliation, and also
                                        about judgment. But it's also about respecting that others reconcile
                                        differently, and judge differently, too. Conscience is always going
                                        to be individual.

                                        If I could hear your conscience speak, what would it say?

                                        Cheers to you,
                                        Jennifer
                                      • Jean-Marc Nguyen
                                        Jennifer, you wrote: Thank you, Jean-Marc, for such a thoughtful response. I think what it comes down to is that each one of us must summon the courage to
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 6 9:36 AM
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                                          Jennifer, you wrote:
                                           
                                          "Thank you, Jean-Marc, for such a thoughtful response. I think what it
                                          comes down to is that each one of us must summon the courage to
                                          withstand the heat, the fortitude to endure the reality of which you
                                          speak. I have lately been thinking about the dilemma, its nature,
                                          what to do about it. I think it's about reconciliation, and also
                                          about judgment. But it's also about respecting that others reconcile
                                          differently, and judge differently, too. Conscience is always going
                                          to be individual.

                                          If I could hear your conscience speak, what would it say?"
                                           
                                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                           
                                          *Reconciliation* is a truly happy and relevant choice of word, Jennifer.
                                           
                                          I also notice that you introduce a word which has a strong moral
                                          connotation: *conscience*.
                                           
                                          If you could hear my conscience speak, what would it say?
                                          That's a rather unusual and unexpected question, Jennifer --- but my
                                          conscience seems delighted to find an interested listener --- at last!
                                          (This conscience of mine is looking down at me right now with 
                                          this unmistakable reproachful look... :-)
                                           
                                          Okay, you asked for it :-)
                                          So here's what *it* might say.
                                           
                                          Is a clear understanding of the *reconciliation* process possible
                                          without a true knowledge of the initial *separation* process?
                                          Certainly not.
                                          What is this *separation* process to begin with?
                                          It's the cosmic history of mankind up to the present day: involution,
                                          the gradual descent of the spiritual essence of Man into the darkness
                                          of the physical and material world.
                                          What are the main characteristics of this cosmic involutional descent?
                                          Separation by means of gradual differentiation: gender, race, people, etc...
                                          What is the ultimate stage of the differentiation process?
                                          The atomization of the spiritual essence of Man.
                                          When does that actually happen?
                                          When human atoms begin to say *I* --- i.e., when human beings
                                          discover *self-consciousness*.
                                          What is the price of self-consciousness?
                                          The [necessary and inevitable] delusion of a dual  separation.
                                          Steiner frequently referred to the gradual loss of spiritual consciousness,
                                          to the gradual decline and erosion in mankind's instinctive faculty of
                                          spiritual perception [atavistic clairvoyance] throughout the post-Atlantean
                                          era. This gradual deterioration process culminates in a total disconnection
                                          from the spiritual world [as far as consciouness is concerned].
                                          During the 5,000 years of the small *Kali Yuga*[Dark Age], which
                                          ended in the year 1899, "the doors of the spiritual world were closed"
                                          and the souls were [more than ever] in exile...
                                          With regard to the human soul, this disconnection means nothing else but
                                          dying to the spiritual world - and *this death* is exemplified on Golgotha!
                                          In other words, from a spiritual point of view: the human physical body
                                          became a coffin, a tomb, a grave in which the soul/spiritual nature of Man
                                          was buried [i.e., it was confined to the physical and material world]...
                                          Why was this sacrificial death necessary?
                                          Precisely in order to bring about a birth: that of the *I am*, the birth
                                          of self-consciousness in the physical world.
                                          This is one aspect of the dual separation: dying to the spiritual world
                                          - to the point that the newborn self-conscious spirit negates the reality
                                          of its spiritual  homeland [materialism, atheism]...
                                          What is the second aspect of the dual separation I mentioned?
                                          The existential isolation and separation the *I* experiences among
                                          other similar human spiritual atoms [Rilke's "infinite distances"...]
                                           
                                          Now, what is one very decisive feature of the *I am*?
                                          It's a double-edged sword with one particularly lethal cutting
                                          edge: potentially unlimited individual selfishness!
                                          Consequently, human atoms inevitably collide because of their
                                          selfish, personal, subjective, passionate - views, thoughts, interests,
                                          desires, etc... [the few examples you gave illustrate that very well].
                                          Things being what they are, the *heat* you mentioned and the general
                                          temperature are bound to increase...
                                          The crux of the matter here, Jennifer, is to uncover the delusive nature
                                          of the personal, subjective, everyday *I* itself: it is full of itself,
                                          but nonetheless largely a spiritual void.
                                          In other words, our usual everyday *I* is hardly anything else but
                                          an ephemeral caricature of the real spiritual *Ego*. It is to a great
                                          extent merely an empty form or receptacle longing for the blissful feeling
                                          of genuine fullness.
                                          What does all this mean?
                                          This means  that the earthly human being will increasingly yearn [as long
                                          as he isn't totally submerged by and in selfishness] to become
                                          *reconciled* with Himself --- Himself being the plenitude of his true
                                          original spiritual nature and essence.
                                          And this is why spiritual science came down from above as soon as
                                          the Dark Age ended. Spiritual science is not a matter of belief; it is
                                          a revelation of Man's origin, true nature, and cosmic odyssey --- which
                                          every human soul is absolutely free to penetrate and feed on or not
                                          [and this is cosmic *respectfulness*, Jennifer].
                                          This first aspect or facet of the reconciliation process will necessarily
                                          and inherently induce its second aspect: Rilke's "infinite distances"
                                          will metamorphose into genuine spiritual proximity and brotherhood.
                                           
                                          Of course, Jennifer: my conscience's intention :-) merely was to try to
                                          illuminate a little the grandiose cosmic background behind our daily
                                          hardships in a very conflictual world...
                                           
                                          Cheers and happy Sunday!
                                           
                                          Jean-Marc

                                           
                                        • write3chairs
                                          ... Jennifer. ... I m so glad I asked, Jean-Marc. Thanks a whole lot for illuminating the dark places. :) Do you ever ask yourself, Who mirrors my deepest
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 9 9:01 AM
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                                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Marc Nguyen"
                                            wrote:

                                            > *Reconciliation* is a truly happy and relevant choice of word,
                                            Jennifer.
                                            > [...] my conscience's intention :-) merely was to try to
                                            > illuminate a little the grandiose cosmic background behind
                                            > our daily hardships in a very conflictual world...

                                            I'm so glad I asked, Jean-Marc. Thanks a whole lot for illuminating
                                            the dark places. :)

                                            Do you ever ask yourself, "Who mirrors my deepest desires?" I think
                                            every soul longs for its counterpart, that heart beating harmoniously
                                            together, the one that warms your own heart so that it radiates
                                            pleasure throughout your whole body, that "coffin" you mentioned. I
                                            think of my soulmates, people with whom I share vital connections,
                                            and feel grateful, overall.

                                            Our desires can be like invitations to disaster sometimes, though.
                                            For instance, did you ever say to yourself, "If I can't have X, I
                                            will selfishly withhold Y." When a pathway is blocked by
                                            circumstances out of one's control, a feeling of helplessness and
                                            victimization permeates the body. Depression is inevitable; it is the
                                            natural response. Feeling those feelings cannot be escaped; the only
                                            release from them is acceptance.

                                            We talk about the weight of things, heaviness. What *is* this weight
                                            that presses against us? I think it is conscience. Watchful eyes and
                                            I's. Is anybody watching you now? (Perhaps.) Any disapproving stares
                                            from the rafters? (I hope not.)

                                            Reality is only and always what it is. I think therefore I am, and
                                            those thoughts arise out of our deepest longings, and out of our
                                            consciousness.

                                            Betrayal of conscience leads to spiritual crisis, I think.

                                            Cheerful Wednesday wishes!

                                            Jennifer

                                            > Cheers and happy Sunday!
                                            >
                                            > Jean-Marc
                                          • Jean-Marc Nguyen
                                            Jennifer, you wrote: Betrayal of conscience leads to spiritual crisis, I think. ... Well Jennifer, I think this applies beautifully to mankind as a whole,
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 15 4:45 PM
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                                              Jennifer, you wrote:
                                               
                                              "Betrayal of conscience leads to spiritual crisis, I think."
                                               
                                              -------------------------------------------------------
                                               
                                              Well Jennifer, I think this applies beautifully to mankind as a whole,
                                              especially at the time when the Source of Life feels most unwelcome,
                                              patiently waiting out in the rain, on the threshold of our graves.
                                              Yes, Judas again...
                                               
                                              Cheers,
                                              Jean-Marc
                                               

                                               
                                            • write3chairs
                                              I was rather astonished to receive this poem from a good friend yesterday. The astonishment was because the theme so closely matches some of the themes here in
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Mar 1, 2009
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                                                I was rather astonished to receive this poem from a good friend
                                                yesterday. The astonishment was because the theme so closely matches
                                                some of the themes here in the group lately.

                                                Jennifer

                                                ---

                                                it dreams in sleep, closed eyes rolling
                                                behind eyelids—it knows no justice,
                                                no love or blind illusions, it sees only hearts
                                                beating softly across long fields without end.
                                                it knows no boundaries, there is nowhere
                                                it ends, there is nowhere—it begins,
                                                undulating, rolling like mossy rocky hills,
                                                these mysteries hiding from sight,
                                                always at the corners of our eyes,
                                                beckoning us to follow them, to play
                                                new games with them, to hold new rings
                                                for them. these blues, these eyes
                                                each stone each morsel of heart,
                                                each beating, pounding moment,
                                                i would sign my name in blood
                                                for your torment to end. i would spin
                                                my world into muck, watch as we wash
                                                ourselves into some endless vacuum
                                                into the holy temple of fire.
                                                in dreams, in sleep, closed eyes rolling
                                                behind those lashes, the whip strikes flesh,
                                                smoke billows from fires and covers cave walls.
                                                i remember this life. i remember all the lives
                                                that ever came before. the veneer is crackled
                                                and spun into melted threads of silver,
                                                slivers of gauzy wing material, flesh and metal
                                                mixing within each other. your bowl
                                                made of flesh, this vessel made of loyalty
                                                i came to conquer, watching softly, steadily
                                                the easing of pain comes in and i think
                                                i think there is nothing else to think.
                                                flowers grow where you step,
                                                flowers sprout from the earth
                                                and scent the air with spices,
                                                cinnamon, nutmeg, vanilla, passion.
                                                i, holding my hand, i standing alone
                                                on this magnificent shore, jagged stones
                                                stab the sky as waves cleave themselves
                                                on their crowns, eddies whirl and jostle
                                                flotsam and foam, the sea is a lover
                                                a pearl lodged in my heart that won't be removed,
                                                look yonder—a gull coming to wrap its wings
                                                around my neck, look further, a flock of them
                                                wrapping themselves around my neck.
                                                i would like to tell a story, but i can no longer speak.
                                                i would like to cry a lullaby, but i am too weak.
                                                i stand upon the shoulders, the palaces fall
                                                to the ground, this dust and rubble, this mess of nerves
                                                each thing falling from one form to the next.

                                                (prodigal elf)
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