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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Divine Feminine

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  • dottie zold
    ... Dear Christine, Yes we are. I just don t express my understandings very well. They ALL line up with what you have found. In the Nag Hammadi Library there
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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      --- golden3000997@... wrote:
      > Dear Dottie,
      >
      > We are still not seeing eye to eye (one of us must
      > be from Iowa!) but that's
      > OK. However, I want to make a few things clear in
      > the following segment of our
      > discussion.
      >


      Dear Christine,

      Yes we are. I just don't express my understandings
      very well. They ALL line up with what you have found.

      In the Nag Hammadi Library there is a book called
      Mary. You shall find it there. As well it is quite
      interesting to read Philip and the Voice of Thunder.

      I have a few other thoughts I am working on, well not
      right now, however they tend to freak people out or
      whatever...anyway I think the fourth gospel is
      inspired by Magdalene and I believe it was SHE who was
      raised under the cover of Lazarus, which means the one
      whom God helps.

      You have such a greater way of expressin than I. I
      don't know why I can not pull it down into the written
      word. It stays within me and comes out pretty jumbled.
      I remember another list mate who said that I am stuck
      in one of the three levels that Dr. STeiner states we
      come with in our soul. I seem not to be able, and
      truly I think he was right, that there seems to be NO
      WAY I can overcome this way of being. I have come to
      see that my mind just does not connect things in an
      intellectual manner. No matter how much study I think.
      I would almost have to rewire my brain it seems.

      You are right on Christine. Do you find many people
      who agree with you? Also I am wondering if you can
      share, because I think it is important to lay the
      groundwork for others, how you came upon such a thing.
      Unless it is too personal however, I have to say it is
      really important just as Steiners work is for this to
      throw a light on this path.

      Love to you always,

      Dottie



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    • golden3000997@cs.com
      Hi Dottie! Do you recognize my cheeky from Iowa dig? It s from the Music Man - line about two Iowans standing nose to nose for a week and never see eye to
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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        Hi Dottie!

        Do you recognize my cheeky "from Iowa" dig? It's from the "Music Man" - line
        about two Iowans standing nose to nose for a week and "never see eye to eye."
        I was trying to make a funny! As Red Skelton (my personal saint) once or twice
        said, "Don't take life too seriously - none of us are getting out of it
        alive." : )

        We do need to lighten up a little bit now and then.

        I have been madly researching in the Bible for that line by Mary Magdalene -
        so it's in the Nag Hammadi??? I'll start looking there.

        There are levels and levels to understanding all of this. Thank you for the
        compliments, but your understanding is just fine. As someone said in another
        post, on another Steiner group, it is so different to try to communicate through
        this medium than to study something in person with a group. There is so much
        communication that goes on at other levels. On the other hand, by having to
        express ourselves in writing, we might make a few ideas more clear than we had
        expressed before.

        I totally agree that we need to act out of love always if we have the
        strength to do so. One on one interaction involves the meeting of egos and that is
        far beyond group, religious or nationalistic identities. Communication is
        essential and bridges must be built. But just as there are Angels and then
        Archangels and Archai, so there are individuals and then larger groups and movements
        and then Spirits of the Time which can and do sweep up individuals in their
        path. The trick I think, is to try to perceive these larger entities, the good and
        the bad and the truth about them.

        What I was saying when I sounded so "fire and brimstone" about making choices
        is that we, as individuals may find ourselves in the not very distant future
        being called upon to make choices that align us with one or more of these
        larger entities. What I meant was that, even if we find ourselves so caught up
        that we must succumb to their demands (microchips, etc) that we need to still be
        able to know inside who and what we are dealing with, not go into it all
        blindly. We may not be able to resist physically, but we can resist spiritually.
        Many have been put into prison in the past for telling the truth about a
        government or religion and have remained free inside themselves. Yes, I believe the
        time is at hand when many lightworkers and truth tellers will go there again,
        possibly to suffer and die. But they, including perhaps us, must stay free
        inside. We must never surrender the truth. We must never give evil the name of
        good.

        And yes, Frank, if you are reading this - I mean the Waldorf movement, too.
        The seeds of human freedom which it seeks to plant, nurture and guard in each
        human child are very dangerous to the forces in the world today. As long as it
        remains quiet and acquiescent to the state, it will be allowed to continue.
        But the state, contrary to popular belief, is not stupid. They know very well
        who we are. And now, the American movement has made the unbelievably stupid
        mistake of getting into bed with the public (state) school system! Let's just go
        ahead and marry the executioner, why don't we?? PLANS is absolutely right about
        their position that Waldorf Education has no place in the public school
        system and that Waldorf educators should be honest and upfront with all parents
        about the Anthroposophy and Christianity that lives within it. I am not concerned
        with the forum that is running on it about whether or not RS was connected
        with the Nazis, that's another subject entirely. But Waldorf education in state
        schools has two things wrong with it - Waldorf teachers are inherently limited
        in what they can say and do, even though they may have more freedom in the
        classroom than other public school teachers and Waldorf education has been put
        under the gaze of the power system at large. It's not that what we do in a
        Waldorf classroom is or should be secret - far from it. But it should be done in
        total freedom and independence from any other controlling factor. And only
        those parents and families who understand it honestly and as fully as possible
        should participate. Sometimes withholding truth can be as bad as a direct lie.
        That's what I meant, Frank.

        I have a manuscript which I will either type or try to scan that addresses
        the revolutionary aspect of Waldorf Education. I intend to send it to you in
        entirety. In the meantime, I will say that the bit about the Threefold Social
        Order being on the table at Versailles was told to me and six other teacher
        trainees in 1977-78 by Rene Querido. If it's not true, I want to know why he told
        us. The manuscript that I am working on supports it, but does not state it
        exactly. I will keep researching. If you can, please tell me why you said that it
        never happened.

        One more thing about public education, and that is money. I think many people
        only consider it as one little neighborhood school with well intentioned
        people doing the best they can for a city's children. That is true, of course, but
        there is much more to it. Public education means lots and lots of money for
        those in power. You think there's not enough money for schools today? Children
        are hard pressed to have the essentials? Last year, I think, here in Miami,
        the head of the school board was fired for corruption and walked away with a
        $2,000,000.00+ severance package!!! And in the States, many if not all states run
        a lottery that pulls in billions and billions. Here in Florida it was
        packaged to the public as a means expressly to help improve the schools. Promises
        were made before the legislation was passed promising that it would be devoted to
        public education in addition to tax funding and not instead. Well, tax money
        for education has been reduced and lottery money used instead. But there is
        still no evidence of money being used in the quantities currently generated by
        the lottery. I have never seen any accounting of where that money goes. I would
        like to see it on a yearly basis, with a dollar by dollar breakdown. In fact,
        I'm going to see if I can find it on the Net. Florida has a lousy report
        card. 40 out of 50 ain't bad, I guess - but where does the money go??????????????

        States Ranked: Smartest to Dumbest
        The smartest state in the union is Massachusetts.
        The dumbest, for the second consecutive year, is New Mexico.
        These are the findings of the Education State Rankings, a survey by Morgan
        Quitno Press of the public school systems in all 50 states. States were graded
        on a variety of factors based on how they compare to the national average.
        These included such positive attributes as per-pupil expenditures, public high
        school graduation rates, average class size, student reading and math
        proficiency, and pupil-teacher ratios. States received negative points for high drop-out
        rates and physical violence.

        How does YOUR state rank?
        1. Massachusetts
        2. Vermont
        3. Connecticut
        4. Montana
        5. New Jersey
        6. Maine
        7. Pennsylvania
        8. (tie) Wisconsin and Iowa
        10. New York
        11. Nebraska
        12. Minnesota
        13. Indiana
        14. Wyoming
        15. Kansas
        16. Rhode Island
        17. Virginia
        18. Maryland
        19. Delaware
        20. Michigan
        21. North Carolina
        22. Ohio
        23. Alaska
        24. North Dakota
        25. Utah
        26. New Hampshire
        27. Illinois
        28. Missouri
        29. West Virginia
        30. Idaho
        31. South Dakota
        32. Oregon
        33. Washington
        34. Texas
        35. Colorado
        36. Georgia
        37. Kentucky
        38. Arkansas
        39. Oklahoma
        40. Florida
        41. South Carolina
        42. Tennessee
        43. Hawaii
        44. California
        45. Arizona
        46. Alabama
        47. Louisiana
        48. Mississippi
        49. Nevada
        50. New Mexico
      • Frank Thomas Smith
        ... Also The Gospel of Thomas, verse 114: Simon Peter said to them, Make Mary (Magdalene) leave us, for females don t deserve life. Jesus said, Look, I will
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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          > In the Nag Hammadi Library there is a book called
          > Mary. You shall find it there. As well it is quite
          > interesting to read Philip and the Voice of Thunder.

          Also The Gospel of Thomas, verse 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary
          (Magdalene) leave us, for females don't deserve life."
          Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can
          become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes
          herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

          But don't worry too much, the meaning is ambiguous and most unclear, to say
          the least. It may have to do with being androgynous, or some kind of gnostic
          code
          Frank
        • golden3000997@cs.com
          Thanks Frank! Whoa, something good to chew on there! I have that somewhere on my shelves, I think. Maybe I can find it on the Net. Can t reconcile it with
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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            Thanks Frank!

            Whoa, something good to chew on there! I have that somewhere on my shelves, I
            think. Maybe I can find it on the Net. Can't reconcile it with other texts,
            though.

            Did you see my bit on public education? Still working on it for you, though.

            : ) Christine

            By the way, the company I work for here in Miami has a branch in Buenos
            Aires. Real belly of the beast stuff! Won't say what just now. I am still trying to
            figure it out. I have only been there 2 months.
          • Richard Distasi
            Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes herself male will enter
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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              "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can
              become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes
              herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
               
              Just a stab in the dark here but this may be a reference to a possible transfiguration of the etheric body of Mary Magdalene. That is, her etheric body is male and that Christ heightens its awareness such that she was then to become the first person to perceive the Risen Etheric Christ.
               
              rick distasi
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 12:33 PM
              Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Divine Feminine




              > In the Nag Hammadi Library there is a book called
              > Mary. You shall find it there. As well it is quite
              > interesting to read Philip and the Voice of Thunder.

              Also The Gospel of Thomas, verse 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary
              (Magdalene) leave us, for females don't deserve life."
              Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can
              become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes
              herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

              But don't worry too much, the meaning is ambiguous and most unclear, to say
              the least. It may have to do with being androgynous, or some kind of gnostic
              code
              Frank







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            • dottie zold
              Hey Rick, Where is this quote from? I hope its not the same one from the Nag Hammadi book of Mary. I am wondering if anyone knows if this book found of Mary is
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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                Hey Rick,

                Where is this quote from? I hope its not the same one
                from the Nag Hammadi book of Mary. I am wondering if
                anyone knows if this book found of Mary is different
                than the one found in the late 1800s? I just read
                there was a book of Mary found during that time
                period. Don't know the specifices though or the
                validity of such a thing.

                The Sufi women as well were called male but that was
                in reference to Master.

                I still don't understand the etheric things so much. I
                can't seem to really really rap my mind around it.

                Peace,=
                Dottie

                --- Richard Distasi <radistasi@...> wrote:
                > "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that
                > she too can
                > become a living spirit resembling you males. For
                > every femaile who makes
                > herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

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              • Richard Distasi
                Dottie, The quote that I posted of which you ask was posted by Frank Thomas Smith in an earlier message. That one sentence really got my attention. Here is
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                  Dottie,
                   
                  The quote that I posted of which you ask was posted by Frank Thomas Smith in an earlier message. That one sentence really got my attention. Here is what Frank posted:
                   
                  *********************************************************************************************
                   
                  Also The Gospel of Thomas, verse 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary
                  (Magdalene) leave us, for females don't deserve life."
                  Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can
                  become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes
                  herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
                   
                  **********************************************************************************************
                   
                  rick distasi
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 7:39 PM
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Divine Feminine

                  Hey Rick,

                  Where is this quote from? I hope its not the same one
                  from the Nag Hammadi book of Mary. I am wondering if
                  anyone knows if this book found of Mary is different
                  than the one found in the late 1800s? I just read
                  there was a book of Mary found during that time
                  period. Don't know the specifices though or the
                  validity of such a thing.

                  The Sufi women as well were called male but that was
                  in reference to Master.

                  I still don't understand the etheric things so much. I
                  can't seem to really really rap my mind around it.

                  Peace,=
                  Dottie

                  --- Richard Distasi <radistasi@...> wrote:
                  > "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that
                  > she too can
                  > become a living spirit resembling you males. For
                  > every femaile who makes
                  > herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

                  __________________________________
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                • Frank Thomas Smith
                  Dottie wrote: The Sufi women as well were called male but that was in reference to Master. FTS: That might very well be the explanation here as well, i.e,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                    Dottie wrote:
                    The Sufi women as well were called male but that was
                    in reference to Master.


                  • Frank Thomas Smith
                    ... too. ... each ... as it ... continue. ... well ... stupid ... just go ... about ... parents ... concerned ... state ... limited ... put ... done in ...
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                      Christine wrote:
                      > And yes, Frank, if you are reading this - I mean the Waldorf movement,
                      too.
                      > The seeds of human freedom which it seeks to plant, nurture and guard in
                      each
                      > human child are very dangerous to the forces in the world today. As long
                      as it
                      > remains quiet and acquiescent to the state, it will be allowed to
                      continue.
                      > But the state, contrary to popular belief, is not stupid. They know very
                      well
                      > who we are. And now, the American movement has made the unbelievably
                      stupid
                      > mistake of getting into bed with the public (state) school system! Let's
                      just go
                      > ahead and marry the executioner, why don't we?? PLANS is absolutely right
                      about
                      > their position that Waldorf Education has no place in the public school
                      > system and that Waldorf educators should be honest and upfront with all
                      parents
                      > about the Anthroposophy and Christianity that lives within it. I am not
                      concerned
                      > with the forum that is running on it about whether or not RS was connected
                      > with the Nazis, that's another subject entirely. But Waldorf education in
                      state
                      > schools has two things wrong with it - Waldorf teachers are inherently
                      limited
                      > in what they can say and do, even though they may have more freedom in the
                      > classroom than other public school teachers and Waldorf education has been
                      put
                      > under the gaze of the power system at large. It's not that what we do in a
                      > Waldorf classroom is or should be secret - far from it. But it should be
                      done in
                      > total freedom and independence from any other controlling factor. And only
                      > those parents and families who understand it honestly and as fully as
                      possible
                      > should participate. Sometimes withholding truth can be as bad as a direct
                      lie.
                      > That's what I meant, Frank.

                      Okay, Christine, I thought you meant that Waldorf schools hide what
                      anthroposophy really is, in respect ot reincanation, the spirit,
                      religiosity, the Nazi accusation, etc. As far as the relation of schools
                      (Waldorf and others) to
                      the state, I agree with you. In my experience, most W-teachers haven't the
                      vaguest idea of what the Threefold concept entails: autonomous schools, free
                      from state control. And many of those few who do realize it are afraid to
                      mention it. When the Sra. Inspectora comes they fall all over themselves
                      kissing her ass. The one course I still teach in the teachers training
                      school in Buenos Aires is called Ecologia social, for want of a better name,
                      I guess. It's 50% threefold society and 50% organzation development and
                      group dynamics. In the first part I try to hammer into their young heads
                      that W-schools should be models of state-free schools. Much nodding of
                      heads, even applause, though I suspect they forget it once in teaching
                      activity. Anecdote: A few months ago a new inspector came to our little
                      school here in the wilderness, very nice woman, most enthusistic about what
                      she saw. I told her we're thinking of withdrawing our request for state
                      approval, because we're not able to comply with the stupid burocratic
                      requirements and their costs. She agreed with our criticism, but said it
                      would be a mistake to break off because the parents, espedcially new ones,
                      woudn't understand that. Also, after the 6th grade (end of primary school
                      here) the kids would still have to take a state exam to enter high school.
                      (Two good arguments which we were well aware of.) She also said she would do
                      all possible to obtain approval. Fine, we went along, but nothing has
                      changed because not even she can shake the bureaucracy. Now we are thinking
                      of changing to a cooperative, with the teachers as members, not employees,
                      and kiss the Ministerio de Educacion goodbye. But the teachers themselves
                      are afraid of this.
                      >
                      > I have a manuscript which I will either type or try to scan that addresses
                      > the revolutionary aspect of Waldorf Education. I intend to send it to you
                      in
                      > entirety. In the meantime, I will say that the bit about the Threefold
                      Social
                      > Order being on the table at Versailles was told to me and six other
                      teacher
                      > trainees in 1977-78 by Rene Querido. If it's not true, I want to know why
                      he told
                      > us. The manuscript that I am working on supports it, but does not state it
                      > exactly. I will keep researching. If you can, please tell me why you said
                      that it
                      > never happened.

                      Steiner spoke with various high ranking German politicians, and wrote
                      memorandums, trying to convince them that Germany offer the threefold
                      society as a post-war (I) alternative at peace negotiations. Although some
                      seemed well disposed to the idea, nothing happened and it never reached
                      Versailles. (Lindenberg - "Rudolf Steiner-Eine Biographie" and elsewhere).
                      Why Querido may have said something different, I don't know.

                      Frank
                    • dottie zold
                      Hi Christine, Rick and Frank, The Gospel of Mary is only four pages or so long. This quote is when the brothers have become bereaved with the departure of
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                        Hi Christine, Rick and Frank,

                        The Gospel of Mary is only four pages or so long. This
                        quote is when the brothers have become bereaved with
                        the departure of Christ. This one doesn't state it in
                        the 'make us all males' although it is similar. I
                        couldn't find the exact quote I was looking for last
                        night.

                        Gospel of Mary: How shall we go to the Gentiles and
                        preach the gospel of the kingdom of the Son of Man? If
                        they did not spare him how will they spare us? Then
                        Mary stood up greeted them all and said to her
                        brethren, "Do not weep and do not grieve nor be
                        irresolute, for his grace will be entirely with you
                        and will protect you. But rather let us praise his
                        greatness, for he has prepared us and made us into
                        men." When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to
                        the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the
                        Savior.

                        Peter said to Mary, "Sister, we know that the Savior
                        loved you more than the rest of the women. Tell us the
                        words which you remember - which you know but we do
                        not nore have we heard them. Mary answered and said
                        "What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you."

                        Gsopel of Phillip:

                        There were three who always walked with the Lord. Mary
                        his mother and her sister and Magdalene, the one who
                        was called his companion. His sister and his mother,
                        and his companiion were each a Mary.

                        AND HERE IS SOMETHING INTERESTING THAT FOLLOWS. (MY
                        CAPS:)

                        "The Father and the Son are single names. the Holy
                        Spirit is a double name. For they are everywhere: they
                        are above, they are below; they are in the concealed,
                        they are revealed. The Holy Spirit is revealed: it is
                        below. It is in the concealed: it is above.

                        You made a comment about Magdalene and another melted
                        but you can not show it yet. I think it might be found
                        in this above.

                        It is clear, very clear in the Nag Hammadi that
                        Magdalene is the most loved of Christ Jesus. Philip
                        states it, Thomas states it, Mary states it and there
                        are others but my eyes tired of looking for them last
                        night. This is a huge book. And it is in many pieces
                        as is my bible. I am even missing the first three
                        pages of Genesis due to it falling a part in my
                        hands:)

                        Also in Philip:

                        As for Wisdom, who is called barren, she is the mother
                        of the angels. And the companion of the Savior (is)
                        Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the
                        disciples and used to kiss her ofter on her mouth. The
                        rest of the disciples were offended by it and
                        expressed disapproval. They said to him, " Why do you
                        love her more than all of us? The Savior answered and
                        said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a
                        blind man and one who sees, are both in darkness, they
                        are no different from one another. When the light
                        comes the he who sees will see the light, and he who
                        is blind will remain in darkness.

                        The Lord said "Blessed is he who is before he came
                        into being. For he who is, h as been and shall be.

                        Christine, for me I have always read the bible for
                        what was just before a passage, that rang a bell, and
                        also that which is read after. For some reason I had
                        not thought to read the Nag in the same manner. But
                        today while writing this I found my self realizing
                        what Christ is really saying in regards to the
                        companion. I am thinking that the word consort and
                        companion, which is usually used to explain the
                        relationship of Christ to Sophia in the Nag, have the
                        same meaning? Do you interpret them one and the same?

                        Did you know that the technical translation of Kingdom
                        within is actually Queendom within in the original
                        Aramaic language that Jesus spoke; Malduka. For me its
                        like my main man was walking around calling on all to
                        find the Queendom within:)

                        I am wondering if Frank or Rick might be able to point
                        to a book within the Nag of a conversation with Mary
                        begging the Lord to be patient with her many
                        questions, and the men, probably my friend Peter,
                        complaining that she is taking up too much time
                        because they can't seem to get a question in edgewise?
                        It is in one of these that Mary makes the statement of
                        making us all males.

                        I am finding it interesting that they called Salt,
                        Sophia. It makes me think on my question of the story
                        about ?(can't remember her name at the moment) turning
                        to a pillar of Salt. It looks like she lost out in
                        living yet she had no part of the fornication that
                        took place between father and daughters.

                        Interesting for me for I found seven women while
                        looking for pillars in an art piece that called to
                        mind Pillars of Faith.

                        Happy Sunday,

                        dottie

                        Christine wrote:
                        > Please tell me WHERE she says that!!! Is it in the
                        > BIBLE?? If so, Please give
                        > me the chapter and verse - I really want to see it
                        > for myself. Doesn't ring a
                        > bell at all. In fact, I don't recall any quotes of
                        > her at all except when she
                        > meets The Risen Christ and asks him where he put her
                        > teacher (rabbi).
                        >
                        > This is really, really important to me, so please
                        > find me that quote. Thank
                        > you!
                        >
                        > : ) Christine
                        >


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                      • golden3000997@cs.com
                        Hi Dottie et al! Cool Stuff, this Internet Thing!!! Been doing lots of reading, researching, getting Mary pictures for you Dottie! Look at the highlight below,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                          Hi Dottie et al!

                          Cool Stuff, this Internet Thing!!!

                          Been doing lots of reading, researching, getting Mary pictures for you
                          Dottie! Look at the highlight below, I'll emphasis it, in case the Bold doesn't
                          work.

                          Here is the link:

                          http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

                          Cut and pasted from a search on the site above:

                          Search = Mary

                          Search Result
                          The (Second) Apocalypse of James -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                          The (Second) Apocalypse of James, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site
                          includes the entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other
                          primary Gnostic scriptures and documents.
                          relative of his. He said, "Hasten! Come with Mary, your wife, and your
                          relatives
                          The Gospel of Philip -- The Nag Hammadi Library

                          The Gospel of Philip, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes the
                          entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary
                          Gnostic scriptures and documents.

                          ********************

                          Some said, "Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit." They are in error. They do
                          not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman? Mary
                          is the

                          **************************

                          There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary, his mother, and her
                          sister, and companion were each a Mary.

                          angels. And the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] loved her more
                          than all the
                          The Sophia of Jesus Christ -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                          The Sophia of Jesus Christ, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes
                          the entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary
                          Gnostic scriptures and documents.
                          Mary said to him: "Lord, then how will we know that?"


                          Mary said to him: "Holy Lord, where did your disciples come from, and where
                          are

                          The Gospel of Thomas Collection -- Translations and Resources
                          The Gospel of Thomas in multiple translations, along with a vast collection
                          of material about the Thomas tradition. This site includes the entire Hammadi
                          Library, as well as a large collection of other primary Gnostic scriptures and
                          documents.
                          21. Mary said to Jesus, "What are your disciples like?"

                          114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve
                          Gospel of Thomas (Lambdin Translation) -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                          The Gospel of Thomas in multiple translations, along with a vast collection
                          of material about the Thomas tradition. This site includes the entire Hammadi
                          Library, as well as a large collection of other primary Gnostic scriptures and
                          documents.
                          (21) Mary said to Jesus, "Whom are your disciples like?"


                          (114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy
                          of

                          The Dialogue of the Savior -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                          The Dialogue of the Savior, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes
                          the entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary
                          Gnostic scriptures and documents.
                          Mary said, "Lord, behold! Whence do I bear the body while I weep, and whence
                          while

                          Mary hailed her brethren, saying, "Where are you going to put these things
                          about

                          Then he [...] Judas and Matthew and Mary [...] the edge of heaven and earth.
                          And when Mary said, "[...] see evil [...] them from the first [...] each
                          other.


                          Mary said, "Thus with respect to 'the wickedness of each day,' and 'the
                          laborer is

                          Mary said, "Tell me, Lord, why I have come to this place to profit or to Mary
                          said to him, "Lord, is there then a place which is [...] or lacking truth?"
                          Mary said, "Lord, you are fearful and wonderful, and [...] those who do not
                          know

                          Mary said, "I want to understand all things, just as they are!"
                          Mary said, "Everything established thus is seen."


                          Mary said, "There is but one saying I will speak to the Lord concerning the

                          Mary said, "Of what sort is that mustard seed? Is it something from heaven or
                          is Mary said, "They will never be obliterated."
                          Mary said to the Lord, "When the works [...] which dissolve a work."


                          Introduction to the Nag Hammadi Library
                          through James and through Mary Magdalene [who the Gnostics revered as consort
                          to Jesus]. disciple had been a woman, Mary Magdalene, his consort. The Gospel
                          of Philip
                          "...the companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more
                          than

                          The Testimony of Truth -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                          The Testimony of Truth, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes the
                          entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary
                          Gnostic scriptures and documents.
                          the world through a virgin, Mary. What is (the meaning of) this mystery? John
                          was begotten
                          Gospel of Thomas - Patterson & Robinson Translation -- Nag Hammadi Library
                          The Gospel of Thomas in multiple translations, along with a vast collection
                          of material about the Thomas tradition. This site includes the entire Hammadi
                          Library, as well as a large collection of other primary Gnostic scriptures and
                          documents.
                          (1) Mary said to Jesus: "Whom are your disciples like?"
                          (1) Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not
                          worthy of

                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          --
                          32 matches.
                        • dottie zold
                          Dear Christine, You are pretty amazing! I would like to know if you could slow down just a second and look at some of the questions I have for you? I have been
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                            Dear Christine,

                            You are pretty amazing!

                            I would like to know if you could slow down just a
                            second and look at some of the questions I have for
                            you?

                            I have been following this for three years and finally
                            found someone who speaks my language regarding
                            Magdalene. There is much more of her to be found
                            regarding the mystery of ChristSophia.

                            Do you have time to look at some of the questions? I
                            thought I moved fast, whew:) Its funny what
                            inspiration will do 'ey?

                            So, do you recall how you came to this? Where did your
                            inspiration of the Holy Spirit as feminine originate?
                            What books have you read that have led you to this?
                            Have you thought about Magdalene as the inspirant for
                            the Fourth Gospel and that of The Voice of Thunder?
                            Has it ever occurred to you that Christ initiated
                            Magdlaene and not a man called Lazarus? Do you see her
                            at the table before Christ sacrificed? Do you see her
                            with Christ at the end of John? Do you see Judas as
                            forgiven symbolically through the acceptance of Paul?
                            Where are your inspirations regarding Mary through the
                            house?

                            Had Dr. Steiner inspired you to the Mary mystery? If
                            so, what books?

                            Some of the questions I have asked may not seem
                            credible or whatever, however there are a few things I
                            am working on and they are not clear to me yet. But I
                            am very interested in the Mary questions?

                            Could you make some time for these? What did you think
                            of the passage directly following the 'men' remark in
                            Phillip? Do you intuit anything from that?

                            What age were you when you started to really click
                            with the Mary mystery?

                            I know you have a lot on your plate. If you would take
                            the time I would especially be grateful.

                            Admiringly,

                            Dottie

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                          • golden3000997@cs.com
                            Hi Dottie! I m going to paste all this on a word document, then hit the books for answers. The two Jesus children, along with the 2 Josephs & 2 Marys were what
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                              Hi Dottie!

                              I'm going to paste all this on a word document, then hit the books for
                              answers. The two Jesus children, along with the 2 Josephs & 2 Marys were what got me
                              really excited in the first place (1976?) Lecture by Rene Querido (in person
                              - Spring Valley NY Christmas conference) I liked all the cosmic stuff, but
                              after having a bout with "born again" Christianity a few years prior (I graduated
                              HS in 1973). I didn't want to hear anything about Jesus. Then that lecture -
                              WOW!

                              I still think it is the most REVOLUTIONARY concept in all of Anthrop, at
                              least in the sense of Christology. It is such an open secret - and a terrific way
                              to get Jehovah's Witnesses off your doorstep for good! ; )

                              Well, the 2 Marys were pretty obvious after that and Steiner's "Gospel of St.
                              Luke" has the most beautiful illumination in my opinion. But Steiner talks
                              about the 3 soul forces - especially in the Mystery Dramas, which were pretty
                              hot in Spring Valley when I was there at the time. It may have been in
                              conversation with Hans & Ruth Pusch at lunch (I used to clean their house for a while
                              before Hans died). But I guess I just needed Mary Magdalene personally. I felt
                              that she was the only spiritual being I knew of at the time who could
                              understand me at the time, being the sex freak I was back then (until fairly
                              recently). She just fit in perfectly as the Maria of the Will Soul Force. Eva Maria
                              (the Virgin Mary in Luke) the Maria of the Heart or Feeling Soul Force. Mother
                              Mary (Maria Sophia of the Head or Thinking Soul Force).

                              I went through a period of classes to become a Catholic (around 1991 or 1992
                              I think). Oh my God, I can just hear the Anthropops howling now!!! But I have
                              had such very profound experiences and reaction taking the Eucharist (which I
                              did, even though not a Catholic) and I thought I should join so that I could
                              do that with more honesty. I also was involved during that time with a
                              University catholic church with very progressive thinking priests (and there are
                              radicals among them, you know - another topic altogether!). It was a very good
                              experience, but the whirlwind of my life took me away before my joining. I also
                              have had periods of using the rosary and with very good inward effect. Somewhere
                              in all of that, I really came clear about Her as the Divine Feminine of the
                              Godhead. She is the Matrix, the Bearer, the Comforter. Christ said that He
                              would send the Comforter and He has. I have been to Conyers, GA, and even though
                              there was a spooky element that wasn't good (totally my own perception)
                              nevertheless SHE was there simply because all the people were there to reach up to
                              HER. I could feel Her Presence, but not necessarily from Nancy What's Her Name.
                              'Nother subject.

                              Then there is the whole Apocalypse thing - the woman clothed with the Sun,
                              with the Stars around her head and the moon under her feet. The patriarchal
                              church wants us to believe that that is an image of the "church" per se, but I
                              don't think so. It is the Goddess and they really couldn't handle that!!

                              I relate Mary Magdalene with the Divine Whore (oh, the howling!!!!) of the
                              ancient mysteries. I believe that when men (male bodies to be specific)
                              incarnated after the fall, they fell more deeply into matter than female bodies and
                              during the Babylon/ Chaldean, Sumerian, etc. times, the priestesses were
                              "whores" in the sense that men paid money to the temple, then went into the temple
                              and lay with a priestess. During the sex act, she filled his soul with love and
                              life force and raised his vibration so that he could feel connected again with
                              the world of the stars. Don't ask me where this comes from, my own vision I
                              guess, but probably lots of different things I've read over the years. But I
                              did have a very real and very profound clairvoyant perception of myself in
                              Atlantis after I had made love with someone who is a friend now (this was about
                              seven years ago) and I actually felt in Spirit what sex was like back then -
                              NOTHING could ever compare today with the unity of souls in the star world!!!!
                              Well, we can't go back again, but Oh boy, was it amazing!!!

                              I think that Mary Magdalene was in a way the last in the line of sacred
                              whores. Her whole Ego from the past and bodily experience during the Incarnation of
                              Christ brought this into line with the I AM. Through the Christ it was
                              transformed into the power to heal the Will Element of the female soul force. Mind
                              you, I am talking about Archetypes of Male & Female, not whether an individual
                              is a man or woman. We are all both. Manifestations of Karma has some really
                              funny passages about this!! : )

                              Anyway, I'm going to get tied to the stake for all of this, I'm sure, but it
                              lives within me and I don't have anyone in my life to share it with, so your
                              asking is bound to unlock the floodgates!

                              I will try to get some good sources for you. I don't really know how much of
                              RS you have already studied and in what areas - there is so much to try to
                              explore!! If you haven't read "St. Luke", I highly recommend it!

                              More later!

                              Luv,
                              Christine : )
                            • dottie zold
                              Hey Christine, Thanks so much for answering me so quickly:) There is more that needs to be explored so hopefully the floodgates will be opened. I don t see
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                                Hey Christine,

                                Thanks so much for answering me so quickly:) There is
                                more that needs to be explored so hopefully the
                                floodgates will be opened.

                                I don't see Magdalene nor the other priestess as
                                'whores'. I believe that is man made. And I do believe
                                it did disinegrate at some point but I do not feel she
                                was a part of that. I believe the Voice of Thunder
                                speaks to that.

                                She came to me as well. And it completely freaked me
                                out. She came as me, and I physically batted her away.
                                I didn't understand and it left me in tears as to 'why
                                me', who am I to experience such a thing'. I have been
                                searching ever more so since that day. I usually get
                                rushes I call the Burning Bush :) in December and then
                                again at Easter. This year it happened also right on
                                St. Johns Day. Didn't know it was his day until I
                                questioned what was happening. It was like a seven day
                                period of inspirations.

                                I have an amazing book that speaks to the issue of
                                'holy whores'...and actually I had done some research,
                                little, about the word harlot, it actually was a
                                reference to a vagabond man. Had nothing to do with a
                                woman. Anyway, I have no issue with Magdalene being a
                                prostitute if indeed she was, however I don't find
                                this to be true. The kissing on the mouth also is the
                                way knowledge/initiation was expressed from what I can
                                tell.

                                Its funny when you said she came to you. Its
                                interesting because you can really sense her. She's so
                                readily available to be experienced or maybe she is so
                                ready to share to those who are open to her. And you
                                know its her. Its pretty clear.

                                Good. I found it was the Fifth Gospel that really put
                                John the Baptist and Magdalene in perspective for me
                                and also the two Mary mothers. Although I must say
                                that I have a little theory about one of those
                                mothers. Still kicking it around though.

                                I have read quite a bit of Steiner. Maybe forty or
                                fifty or more books. Feel pretty connected to his
                                spirit although I am not your usual Steiner student.
                                And that's an understatement.


                                Thanks, Christine

                                Dottie

                                p.s. btw Aminah was not the daughter of Muhammed, she
                                was his mother:)

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                              • Richard Distasi
                                Dottie, It should be noted that Steiner has made known to us that when the disciple who Jesus loved is mentioned the Gospel is pointing to the fact that this
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                                  Dottie,
                                   
                                  It should be noted that Steiner has made known to us that when the disciple who Jesus loved is mentioned the Gospel is pointing to the fact that this is an initiate that Christ Jesus has initiated. You may have already stressed this in your past posts so if I'm repeating something already mentioned and noted by you please excuse me.
                                   
                                  The one passage that I find intriguing is that these passages speak of making Mary Magdalene into a male. Does it mean that she is taught certain things and initiated to a certain degree that she is now respected as a Rabbi or Teacher?
                                   
                                  rick distasi
                                • Richard Distasi
                                  Christine wrote in regard to the two Jesus infants: I still think it is the most REVOLUTIONARY concept in all of Anthrop, at least in the sense of
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                                    Christine wrote in regard to the two Jesus infants:
                                     
                                    "I still think it is the most REVOLUTIONARY concept in all of Anthrop, at
                                    least in the sense of Christology. It is such an open secret - and a terrific way
                                    to get Jehovah's Witnesses off your doorstep for good! ;  )"
                                     
                                    I absolutely agree. I was stunned when I read this from Steiner and it was this very revelation that put me over the top in uniting myself with Anthroposophy. I thought that the fact that Christ and Jesus were separate was radical enough; the two Jesus infants/children was a shocking revelation for me.
                                     
                                    As far as Jehovah's Witnesses: I had a couple of them come to my door once. I confronted them with some of the material from Anthroposophy and they were stupefied. They had no response. One even wanted to get more information about Anthroposophy.
                                     
                                    rick distasi 
                                  • golden3000997@cs.com
                                    Good Morning Rick et all! I had two separate experiences with the Jehovah s Witnesses in California. It was really funny! You see, I don t go around and knock
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                      Good Morning Rick et all!

                                      I had two separate experiences with the Jehovah's Witnesses in California. It
                                      was really funny! You see, I don't go around and knock on other people's
                                      doors and try to sell them my belief system, but when they do that to me, I
                                      consider them "fair game."

                                      The first time was two older ladies. Their question was "do you read the
                                      Bible?" LOL Well, I said "Certainly" and invited them in for coffee. After about
                                      30 or 40 minutes of dissertation on the opening of the Gospel of St. John, they
                                      were (literally) backing out of my apartment, edging against the wall. "Come
                                      on Mabel." One was saying. "I think we need to go now." And of course, they
                                      never came back, which is good because they tend to be like the hobos of the
                                      depression, who used to leave a mark on the front door or gate of a house that
                                      had offered hospitality, so the other hobos would go there.

                                      But a couple of years later, a young man came round (must have been a new
                                      recruit and didn't know the sign for "Keep Away" yet). I did the same thing and
                                      he kept saying "Come to a meeting and ask the Elders about that." I am pretty
                                      sure I was pointing out the two geneaologies to him. I told him "YOU go back to
                                      your meeting and ask the Elders about that!"

                                      After that, they distributed maps of the area to all new recruits with my
                                      house clearly marked.

                                      : ) Christine
                                    • Richard Distasi
                                      Christine you wrote: After that, they distributed maps of the area to all new recruits with my house clearly marked.
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                        Christine you wrote:
                                         
                                        "After that, they distributed maps of the area to all new recruits with my
                                        house clearly marked."
                                        ************************************************************************************
                                         
                                        I wish I could say the same. :-)
                                         
                                        rick distasi
                                      • dottie zold
                                        Morning Rick, ... When you say initiate do you mean to convey that the other diciples were not, other than this one whom Jesus loved? If so I would have to say
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                          Morning Rick,

                                          You wrote:
                                          > It should be noted that Steiner has made known to us
                                          > that when the disciple who Jesus loved is mentioned
                                          > the Gospel is pointing to the fact that this is an
                                          > initiate that Christ Jesus has initiated.

                                          When you say initiate do you mean to convey that the
                                          other diciples were not, other than this one whom
                                          Jesus loved? If so I would have to say that it could
                                          be none other than the Magdalene, and that the raising
                                          of Lazarus points to that, not to mention all the
                                          comments in the Nag Hammadi referring to Jesus loving
                                          her the most and kissing her on the mouth and so
                                          forth. As I said earlier I have seen it referenced in
                                          many places, not specifically pointing to Magdalene,
                                          that kissing on the mouth is an initiatic reference.
                                          The book I am reading on the Sufis speaks of this as
                                          well.

                                          I don't think anyone can really say for 100 % that a
                                          thing is such and such. I can only say that in my
                                          personal studies I can not find Lazarus as a being in
                                          the manner he is discussed. I am open to it not having
                                          been Magdalene if this is the truth.

                                          I am wondering if you are aware of any other
                                          initiatic experience to the level of the 'beloved' in
                                          the bible? Maybe it has escaped me and there is
                                          another way of looking at this Lazarus thing. When I
                                          trail the Marys I find they are indeed 'one whom God
                                          helped' in the OT as well: the sister of Moses and the
                                          woman with Elija given the rod. Its funny because it
                                          is noted by a few scholars that Muhammed made a
                                          mistake by naming the Virgin Mary as the sister of
                                          Moses. They say he confused his Marys. I say he knew
                                          'exactly' what he was saying its just there wasn't
                                          anyone of understanding who was enlightened enough to
                                          see what he was saying.

                                          Rick
                                          You may
                                          > have already stressed this in your past posts so if
                                          > I'm repeating something already mentioned and noted
                                          > by you please excuse me.

                                          Dottie

                                          No, I hadn't stressed it although I did mention it.
                                          This tends to get me in a bit of hot water with
                                          Christoligists. But I didn't pull this out of thin
                                          air. It came from within. I think when I saw your
                                          words this morning it made me wonder, because I am
                                          always looking for a way to be wrong about my
                                          insights, if I am onto something with Lazarus or if
                                          there is another initiative scene that could possibly

                                          > speak to the Magdalene mystery as the 'beloved'.

                                          Rick
                                          > The one passage that I find intriguing is that these
                                          > passages speak of making Mary Magdalene into a male.
                                          > Does it mean that she is taught certain things and
                                          > initiated to a certain degree that she is now
                                          > respected as a Rabbi or Teacher?

                                          Dottie

                                          I think it is more than that. However, she is now
                                          called, I can't remember since when, maybe the
                                          fifties, The Apostle to The Apostles by the Catholic
                                          Church: Teacher to the Teachers. I believe Steiners
                                          Genesis speaks to the 'male' thing. I believe it may
                                          be the 'raying' out of the ...well I will find it in
                                          the book today. I believe it is the persons who are
                                          able to radiate love, Christ/Sun like, from within to
                                          without like the suns rays from above. And I believe
                                          it is said this happened during the time when we were
                                          coming into being. I believe it is what happened when
                                          the ancient sages of the day called out to the Cosmos
                                          and they heard a resounding 'yes'(my belief)returning:
                                          I believe that is the male aspect and the humans are
                                          the female aspect as the recievers. Eunichs have made
                                          themselves recievers of the 'word' so that they can
                                          become male??

                                          I believe she is called Apostle to the Apostles for
                                          many reasons and mostly because she was able to
                                          recognize Jesus as the Christ when resssurected. She
                                          was the only one. Which brings up an interesting point
                                          of recognizing Jesus 'as' the Christ. A man was truly
                                          ressurected as one in Christ. And this is why I
                                          believe she is the inspirant for the Fourth Gospel and
                                          also the reason I see her as representing the Sophia,
                                          daughter voice of God.

                                          My thoughts,
                                          Dottie

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                                        • dottie zold
                                          Dear Rick, In Genesis lecture 2 we find Dr. Steiner discussing Hashamayim and Ha aretz. You know that in the Bible, after the words I endeavored to sketch
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                            Dear Rick,

                                            In Genesis lecture 2 we find Dr. Steiner discussing
                                            Hashamayim and Ha'aretz. " You know that in the Bible,
                                            after the words I endeavored to sketch for you
                                            yesterday, there comes a description of one of the
                                            complexes arising our of the creative thinking of the
                                            gods. I told you that we have to picture that, as if
                                            out of cosmic memory, two comlexes arose. One was a
                                            complex which may be compared to the nature of
                                            thoughts which can arise in us, the other to our
                                            desire or will nature. The one complex contains all
                                            that drives towards outer manifestation, tends as it
                                            were to proclaim its force-hashamayim. The other
                                            complex-ha'aretz-consists of an inner activity filled
                                            with desire. Then we are told of certain qualities of
                                            this inwardly active, enlivening element, and these
                                            are indicated in the Bible with the sounds which
                                            portray their character. We are told that this
                                            inwardly active element was in a condition described
                                            as tohu wa'bohu- without form and void.To understand
                                            what is meant by tohu wa' bohu we must paint a picture
                                            of it; and we shall only succeed in this if out of our
                                            spiritual scientific knowledge we call to mind what it
                                            was that, after its passage through the Saturn, Sun
                                            and Moon stages, re-emerged and surged through space
                                            as our earth existence, as our planet earth."

                                            ...

                                            So, we have to imagine the elements of warmth, air and
                                            water permeating and interpenetrating each other, and
                                            within them a raying out as from a centre in all
                                            directions, and this raying out would be there if we
                                            only heard the first part of the sound structure,
                                            tohu. What does the second part of the phrase signify?
                                            It expresses the very opposite of what I have just
                                            described. Bet, the sound which resemebles our B, had
                                            the character of calling forth our imagination the
                                            picture of an enormous sphere, a hollow sphere, with
                                            yourself inside it, and rays proceeding from every
                                            point inside this sphere towards the center. Thus you
                                            imagine a point in space with forces streaming out in
                                            all directions, and this is tohu; then these forces
                                            are arrested as it were by an outer spherical
                                            enclosure and turned back on themselves from every
                                            direction of space, and this is bohu."

                                            So, this is what I mean by the raying in and out and
                                            the male and female aspect. Which also includes the
                                            planet earth as signified by the word ha'aretz and the
                                            Sun signified as the word hashamayim. Yin & Yang

                                            Dottie


                                            > Rick
                                            > > The one passage that I find intriguing is that
                                            > these
                                            > > passages speak of making Mary Magdalene into a
                                            > male.
                                            > > Does it mean that she is taught certain things and
                                            > > initiated to a certain degree that she is now
                                            > > respected as a Rabbi or Teacher?


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                                          • Richard Distasi
                                            Dottie: Steiner does make mention that Christ Jesus did bring the Apostles along by stages through the different levels of Initiation so that they too were
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                              Dottie:
                                               
                                              Steiner does make mention that Christ Jesus did bring the Apostles along by stages through the different levels of Initiation so that they too were Initiates. The twelve attained the level of Imagination when the Gospels relate the scene of the walking on water. As time went on only three were able to attain Inspiration on Mount Tabor; the Transfiguration. And even here it begins to become evident that these three, Peter along with James and John ben Zebedee, were not able to fully remain conscious through this Initiation. Finally, these three were to pass through the Initiation of Intuition and it is here that they fail completely. They cannot retain consciousness. They are then unable to pass through the Event of Golgotha in spirit-consciousness with Christ: not just physically present at the Cross but rather they were to become one spiritually with Christ (in Intuition with Christ) throughout the whole event of Golgotha. They could not. Days prior to this Christ had initiated Lazarus with the intent that if His chosen Apostles could not stay with Him there would be one who could and would become the bearer of the astral body of Christ Jesus which would then become the source of the Gospel of John. This was Lazarus as Steiner had pointed out in his lectures on the Gospel of John in Hamburg, 1908. Mary Magdalene was certainly another Initiate of Christ. It was she who experienced the Risen Christ and told it to the others. I don't have anything from Steiner that addresses the level of initiation that she had achieved though the Gnostic Gospels mention her as being more advanced than the Apostles themselves. It should be noted that though Lazarus became John in name he was not John who accompanied Christ to Mt. Tabor nor was he John who slept while Christ passed through His agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. Lazarus and Mary Magdalene were brother and sister along with Martha; all three of whom were mentioned as being "loved" by Christ. 
                                               
                                              rick distasi
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:01 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Divine Feminine

                                              Morning Rick,

                                              You wrote:
                                              > It should be noted that Steiner has made known to us
                                              > that when the disciple who Jesus loved is mentioned
                                              > the Gospel is pointing to the fact that this is an
                                              > initiate that Christ Jesus has initiated.

                                              When you say initiate do you mean to convey that the
                                              other diciples were not, other than this one whom
                                              Jesus loved? If so I would have to say that it could
                                              be none other than the Magdalene, and that the raising
                                              of Lazarus points to that, not to mention all the
                                              comments in the Nag Hammadi referring to Jesus loving
                                              her the most and kissing her on the mouth and so
                                              forth. As I said  earlier I have seen it referenced in
                                              many places, not specifically pointing to Magdalene,
                                              that kissing on the mouth is an initiatic reference.
                                              The book I am reading on the Sufis speaks of this as
                                              well.

                                              I don't think anyone can really say for 100 % that a
                                              thing is such and such. I can only say that in my
                                              personal studies I can not find Lazarus as a being in
                                              the manner he is discussed. I am open to it not having
                                              been Magdalene if this is the truth.

                                              I am wondering if you are aware of any  other
                                              initiatic experience to the level of the 'beloved' in
                                              the bible? Maybe it has escaped me and there is
                                              another way of looking at this Lazarus thing. When I
                                              trail the Marys I find they are indeed 'one whom God
                                              helped' in the OT as well: the sister of Moses and the
                                              woman with Elija given the rod. Its funny because it
                                              is noted by a few scholars that Muhammed made a
                                              mistake by naming the Virgin Mary as the sister of
                                              Moses.  They say he confused his Marys. I say he knew
                                              'exactly' what he was saying its just there wasn't
                                              anyone of understanding who was enlightened enough to
                                              see what he was saying. 

                                              Rick
                                              You may
                                              > have already stressed this in your past posts so if
                                              > I'm repeating something already mentioned and noted
                                              > by you please excuse me.

                                              Dottie

                                              No, I hadn't stressed it although I did mention it.
                                              This tends to get me in a bit of hot water with
                                              Christoligists. But I didn't pull this out of thin
                                              air. It came from within. I think when I saw your
                                              words this morning it made me wonder, because I am
                                              always looking for a way to be wrong about my
                                              insights, if I am onto something  with Lazarus or if
                                              there is another initiative scene that could  possibly

                                              > speak to the Magdalene mystery as the 'beloved'.

                                              Rick
                                              > The one passage that I find intriguing is that these
                                              > passages speak of making Mary Magdalene into a male.
                                              > Does it mean that she is taught certain things and
                                              > initiated to a  certain degree that she is now
                                              > respected as a Rabbi or Teacher?

                                              Dottie

                                              I think it is more than that. However, she is now
                                              called, I can't remember since when, maybe the
                                              fifties, The Apostle to The Apostles by the Catholic
                                              Church: Teacher to the Teachers. I believe Steiners
                                              Genesis speaks to the 'male' thing. I believe it may
                                              be the 'raying' out of the ...well I will find it in
                                              the book today. I believe it is the persons who are
                                              able to radiate love, Christ/Sun like, from within to
                                              without like the suns rays from above. And I believe
                                              it is said this happened during the time when we were
                                              coming into being. I believe it is what happened when
                                              the ancient  sages of the day called out to the Cosmos
                                              and they heard a resounding 'yes'(my belief)returning:
                                              I believe that is the male aspect and the humans are
                                              the female aspect as the recievers. Eunichs have made
                                              themselves recievers of the 'word' so that they can
                                              become male??

                                              I believe she is called Apostle to the Apostles for
                                              many reasons and mostly because she was able to
                                              recognize Jesus as the Christ when resssurected. She
                                              was the only one. Which brings up an interesting point
                                              of recognizing Jesus 'as' the Christ. A man was truly
                                              ressurected as one in Christ. And this is why I
                                              believe she is the inspirant for the Fourth Gospel and
                                              also the reason I see her as  representing the Sophia,
                                              daughter voice of God.

                                              My thoughts,
                                              Dottie

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                                            • Richard Distasi
                                              Dottie, You quoted some very weighty material from Steiner s lectures on Genesis and I can appreciate the raying out and steaming back again as macrocosmic
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                                Dottie,
                                                 
                                                You quoted some very weighty material from Steiner's lectures on Genesis and I can appreciate the raying out and steaming back again as macrocosmic male and female principles of creation. What caught my attention was the following from Steiner:
                                                 
                                                "Thus you imagine a point in space with forces streaming out in
                                                all directions, and this is tohu; then these forces
                                                are arrested as it were by an outer spherical
                                                enclosure and turned back on themselves from every
                                                direction of space, and this is bohu."
                                                 
                                                ". . .these forces are arrested . . .and turned back on themselves."  Arrested by whom or what is my question. In a lecture by Steiner titled, "Man in the Light of Occultism, Theosophy and Philosophy", he speaks of Twelve World Initiators during the Sun Period who enveloped this particular cosmic sphere which now makes up our present solar system. The space that they occupied is now the space that we recognize as the twelve zodiacal constellations. They poured their World-Word into this sphere which was then taken up by Christ who at that time was a microcosmic planetary Being. Somehow, then, their forces must still be at work even if they no longer are present in these spheres, and I could not find anything from Steiner on this regard, or their forces may have been taken up by the hierarchies (Seraphim perhaps) where the streaming out of the forces of the Elohim and Spirits of Form reach their limit of expansion and are then turned back upon themselves. It is this region that is filled with the Being of Christ during the exhaling of His Being during the spring and summer, gathers the cosmic wisdom of the hierarchies and is brought back to us as it is inhaled again by the earth at this time of the year.
                                                 
                                                rick distasi
                                                 


                                                 
                                                 
                                              • dottie zold
                                                ... Hi Rick, Well it seems it is the elohim are are the arrestees when we re-emerge so it seems from Saturn, Sun and Moon stages. Genesis Lecture 2 You know
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                                  from Steiner:
                                                  >
                                                  > "Thus you imagine a point in space with forces
                                                  > streaming out in
                                                  > all directions, and this is tohu; then these forces
                                                  > are arrested as it were by an outer spherical
                                                  > enclosure and turned back on themselves from every
                                                  > direction of space, and this is bohu."
                                                  >

                                                  Rick on Steiner:
                                                  > ". . .these forces are arrested . . .and turned back
                                                  > on themselves." Arrested by whom or what is my
                                                  > question.

                                                  Hi Rick,

                                                  Well it seems it is the elohim are are the arrestees
                                                  when we re-emerge so it seems from Saturn, Sun and
                                                  Moon stages.

                                                  Genesis Lecture 2

                                                  "You know that in the Bible, after the words I
                                                  endeavoured to sketch for you yesterday, there comes a
                                                  description of one of the complexes arising out of the
                                                  creative thinking of the gods. ( I take this to mean
                                                  the elohim.)

                                                  It almost seem like he is explaining the fall of Man
                                                  in a sense in what I shall write below:

                                                  "I pointed out yesterday that what we call the solid
                                                  conditions, namely that which offers resistance to our
                                                  sense, did not exist during the Saturn, Sun and Moon
                                                  stages; all that existed then were the elements of
                                                  fire or warmth, gas or air, and water. Basically it
                                                  was not until the planet earth stage emerged that the
                                                  solid element was added to the previous elemental
                                                  conditions. So that when the moment occurred that we
                                                  described yesterday, of the sun beginning to split off
                                                  from the earth, this was the moment when the elements
                                                  of warmth, air and water began to mutually
                                                  interpenetrate.

                                                  Wow....that is pretty amazing when looking at the
                                                  beginning of the Earth stage. Wow. Makes me
                                                  contemplate Adam & Eve and what each individual
                                                  relationship was to the symbols of this re-emergence.
                                                  And then the snake???? anyway,

                                                  He goes onto say:

                                                  " However, we emphasized yesterday that these elohim
                                                  came over to earth evolution at the stage to which
                                                  they had evolved during the Saturn, Sun and Moon
                                                  evolutions. So they were in a similar situation to
                                                  when you wake up and bring groups of thoughts to mind.
                                                  You can contemplate these thoughts in a kind of
                                                  soul/spiritual way, you can tell what they are like.
                                                  You can say: 'When I wake up in the morning and recall
                                                  what was previously in my mind and what I am now
                                                  calling up, I can describe it'. It was approximately
                                                  the same for the elohim when they said to themselves:
                                                  'let us now think creatively about what arises in our
                                                  souls when we recall all that took place during the
                                                  old Saturn, Sun and Moon evolutions. Let us see what
                                                  it looks like when we remember it.' What it looked
                                                  like was tohu wa' bohu, and could be expressed be the
                                                  picture I gave you of rays streaming out from a centre
                                                  into space and back again in such a way that the
                                                  elements interacted in these rays of force. Thus the
                                                  elohim could say, roughly: 'This is what things look
                                                  like after we have brought them to this point. This is
                                                  how they re-emerge.

                                                  I need to get this book you speak of below. Is that
                                                  the name of it in its current form? That's pretty
                                                  amazing information. It feels like it is all coming
                                                  together doesn't it?

                                                  My Best,
                                                  Dottie

                                                  Rick wrote:
                                                  In a lecture by Steiner titled, "Man in
                                                  > the Light of Occultism, Theosophy and Philosophy",
                                                  > he speaks of Twelve World Initiators during the Sun
                                                  > Period who enveloped this particular cosmic sphere
                                                  > which now makes up our present solar system. The
                                                  > space that they occupied is now the space that we
                                                  > recognize as the twelve zodiacal constellations.
                                                  > They poured their World-Word into this sphere which
                                                  > was then taken up by Christ who at that time was a
                                                  > microcosmic planetary Being. Somehow, then, their
                                                  > forces must still be at work even if they no longer
                                                  > are present in these spheres, and I could not find
                                                  > anything from Steiner on this regard, or their
                                                  > forces may have been taken up by the hierarchies
                                                  > (Seraphim perhaps) where the streaming out of the
                                                  > forces of the Elohim and Spirits of Form reach their
                                                  > limit of expansion and are then turned back upon
                                                  > themselves. It is this region that is filled with
                                                  > the Being of Christ during the exhaling of His Being
                                                  > during the spring and summer, gathers the cosmic
                                                  > wisdom of the hierarchies and is brought back to us
                                                  > as it is inhaled again by the earth at this time of
                                                  > the year.
                                                  >
                                                  > rick distasi
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


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                                                • Richard Distasi
                                                  Dottie, you wrote: I need to get this book you speak of below. Is that the name of it in its current form? Man in the light of Occultism, Theosophy and
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Nov 11, 2003
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                                                    Dottie, you wrote:
                                                     
                                                    "I need to get this book you speak of below. Is that
                                                    the name of it in its current form?"
                                                     
                                                    "Man in the light of Occultism, Theosophy and Philosophy" is a lecture cycle given By RSteiner in 1912. There are ten lectures to it. The lecture that I made reference to was lecture X. 
                                                     
                                                    To access this lecture I listed below a link to it via elib.com. It is the following:
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    rick distasi
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