Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Preventing terrorism
- Mike H wrote:
I Love Amy and Democracy Now. I used to watch her on FSTV along with a ton of other programs that require a bit of thinking from the watcher.
She's impressive, Amy Goodman. A real work horse with a keen sense of humor, which is a must. At first I thought she was an ideologue of sorts, an ideology with which I had a lot in common, but nevertheless some political agenda. That initial perception was changed very quickly; it's simply critical journalism on a quest for human decency. I'm most of all impressed by AG's professionalism and versatility and scope, and her fascinating guests. People with credibility and long track records, people in Congress, former CIA people and retired generals, top investigative reporters around the world, and her special flashback, often connected to various anniversaries, feature old timers from the Black Panther Party and the Weather Underground, - and during the break introducing Weather Underground people who were on the run from the FBI and so on, we get to listen to Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues" with the fitting phrase, "You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows....." . Yep, Democracy Now! is top of the line, and I'm a huge fan.
One of AG's most recent interviews was a full hour with retired four-star general Wesley Clark, the guy who bombed Kosovo as NATO supreme commander. Here is one helluva spicy excerpt:
GEN. WESLEY CLARK: (.............) About ten days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of the generals called me in. He said, Sir, youve got to come in and talk to me a second. I said, Well, youre too busy. He said, No, no. He says, Weve made the decision were going to war with Iraq. This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, Were going to war with Iraq? Why? He said, I dont know. He said, I guess they dont know what else to do. So I said, Well, did they find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda? He said, No, no. He says, Theres nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq. He said, I guess its like we dont know what to do about terrorists, but weve got a good military and we can take down governments. And he said, I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail.
So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, Are we still going to war with Iraq? And he said, Oh, its worse than that. He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, I just got this down from upstairs -- meaning the Secretary of Defenses office -- today. And he said, This is a memo that describes how were going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran. I said, Is it classified? He said, Yes, sir. I said, Well, dont show it to me. And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, You remember that? He said, Sir, I didnt show you that memo! I didnt show it to you!
AMY GOODMAN: Im sorry. What did you say his name was?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK: Im not going to give you his name.
AMY GOODMAN: So, go through the countries again.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK: Well, starting with Iraq, then Syria and Lebanon, then Libya, then Somalia and Sudan, and back to Iran.
- Hi Mike,
Mike H wrote:
However, I wonder whose interests this will be serving. Sure, assuming
this works, there will be greater peace but will there be a greater
sense of wellbeing among *all* levels in the world's population?
Will there be both prosperity and sustenance for all? Will there be
equity and fairness for all in the peaceable society, or will this
continuous peace serve to create a more passive, compliant society?
- --- In email@example.com, "elfuncle" wrote:
> Undocumented AliensPlease forgive me for "snipping" all that came before this. I just
> Undocumented aliens arrive from outer space.
> I saw one in the bushes with a funny-looking face.
> The papers say they're coming from some place in Mexico,
> but I have seen them jump out from a giant UFO!
> The Pentagon is worried about alien attacks.
> Some people tell me aliens have liquid on their backs!
> They went to Mars in search of them but could not find a trace.
> One immigration lawyer flew to Venus on a case.
> The INS is frantic, and they don't know what to do.
> They're handing out those green cards, but some aliens are blue!
> Red alert is on, and there's an awful lot of fuss -
> Rumors say that aliens look just like some of us!
> Undocumented aliens are roaming around wild.
> One could be your governor - another one your child!
> With eighteen federal files on every native motorist,
> they'd better find those aliens and add them to the list!
wanted to say thank you for such an enlightening post. When
saying "illegal," one must ask: According to *whose* laws? What is
happening with regard to immigration here now is that people of
Hispanic heritage are being targeted for discrimination, and that is
wrong. This is why all the controversy and hurt feelings
(justifiably) are happening. It's kind of like the Black person who
gets pulled over by the racist cop, simply for being Black. Same deal
with Hispanic people, who are under scrutiny because the "illegals"
here happen to be of that same heritage. Injustice is sometimes hard
to fight for, especially when a person is in the midst of it.
I think of Eli Wiesel, Holocaust survivor who said some very
significant things with regard to his situation. He mistrusts words
to convey accurately the horror of what he experienced in the death
camps. He asks, "How does one describe the indescribable? How does
one use restraint in recreating the fall of mankind and the eclipse
of the gods? And then, how can one be sure that the words, once
uttered, will not betray, distort the message they bear?"
Some things in life are that serious. He goes on: "So heavy was my
anguish that I made a vow not to speak, not to touch upon the
essential for at least ten years...."
Think of what he is saying here. This is a man who suffered
unspeakable injustice, evil so great that it silenced him.
Wiesel comes to this: "Maybe in a mystical way I thought I could
purify language before using it for the sacred purpose of
communicating the uncommunicable." He wanted to do it right, for
justice to be served, finally.
Thanks again, Tarjei.
- Jennifer wrote:
> Please forgive me for "snipping" all that came before this. I justis
> wanted to say thank you for such an enlightening post. When
> saying "illegal," one must ask: According to *whose* laws? What is
> happening with regard to immigration here now is that people of
> Hispanic heritage are being targeted for discrimination, and that
> wrong. This is why all the controversy and hurt feelingsOh yes, hispanics have always been racially profiled, targeted, for
> (justifiably) are happening.
suspicion of illegal alienism. And the irony is that most of them
are Indians, Spanish speaking Indians, whose ancestors were in North
America long before there were any white people there or any US-
Mexican border. As I said, I was an illegal alien for over ten years
by overstaying my six months' visa. But it wasn't a problem, not
even with my special type of name, because I was white, I was blue-
eyed, I spoke fluent American English and so on. The illegal alien
thing is basically racist; white Europeans, Canadians, and
Australians have no problems - well, not before the Patriot Act
anyway; now it's different, very different.
You know that poem, "Undocumented Aliens," which I wrote in Phoenix
in 1981, do you know what brought it on? I was a cab driver in
Phoenix in those days, and sometimes I had some interesting
assignments, I got the cab full of Mexicans who didn't speak a word
of English, but they managed to direct me, through Tempe and Mesa
and way, way out in the desert, where they paid their fare from the
meter, and then I saw they headed for some bushes where all their
buddies and maybe families were. In the bushes! They were illegal
I remember bringing up the subject with my fellow cabbies on the
stands downtown Phoenix and at the Sky Harbor Airport, and they just
said "they're not supposed to be here." I almost said, "Well,
neither am I, I'm just as illegal as they are." But I didn't. I kept
shooting the breeze with the local police at coffee shops and bars,
nobody knew I was an illegal unless I told them. But those Mexicans
were petrified. At one time I didn't quite understand the directions
they were giving me, so I was about to ask a traffic cop for help,
innocent and naive as I was I guess, but they panicked at that,
which made me realize they were illegals, so I let it go.
Quite ironic that I, who had only been on the Western hemisphere for
a few years, and was indeed an illegal, could live openly like that
as a normal person, but those poor Mexicans who had been around for
millennia had to hide in the bushes!
So now you understand the phrase: "I saw one in the bushes with a
funny-looking face." That's them. And you also
understand: "Undocumented aliens are roaming around wild. One could
be your governor - another one your child!" And: "Rumors say that
aliens look just like some of us!" That's me.
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "kmlightseeker"
> Hi Mike,
> Mike H wrote:
> > http://proposal.permanentpeace.org/index.html
> Interesting idea and one that should be given serious thought to.
> However, I wonder whose interests this will be serving. Sure,
> this works, there will be greater peace but will there be a greaterHey Keith.
> sense of wellbeing among *all* levels in the world's population?
> Will there be both prosperity and sustenance for all? Will there be
> equity and fairness for all in the peaceable society, or will this
> continuous peace serve to create a more passive, compliant society?
Good questions. I would personally speculate that yes, there would be
greater sense of well being for all, to a degree. Mainly because
there would have to be a greater population of people that actually
THINK for themselves, and have command of their feelings, for ideas
like this to perpetuate.
Depends too on what definition of Peace that we use. I think that
most people would agree that individual Inner peace, creates outer
peace. But, in our age, true personal inner peace is attained
individually, which is a product of whole human education (like what
Waldorf tries to create). "Our highest endaevor must be to develope
humans who are able themselves to impart perpose and direction in
Individual perpose and direction, in accord with the kind of morality
that RS points to in the POF, where if we're truly thinking
intutively, we cannot but meet at the same intention (roughly
paraphrased) would not make more passive or compliant people. To the
contrary: I think it would create more lively and assertive
individuals that think with the unending possibilities that are
possible when we truly think "with the power of Love in spiritual
A tall order for sure. But I think that initiatives like the link
above are pointing in a better direction, if not a perfect one.
- Tarjei wrote:
> Oh yes, hispanics have always been racially profiled,Oh, yeah. Don't get me started on that. You do know,
> targeted, for suspicion of illegal alienism. And the
> irony is that most of them are Indians, Spanish speaking
> Indians, whose ancestors were in North America long before
> there were any white people there or any US-Mexican border.
don't you, that the "Father of Education" in Texas
was a leading oppressor of Native Americans (he chased
them out of the state), a protector of slavery, and
much more. His name was Mirabeau Buonaparte Lamar.
> As I said, I was an illegal alien for over ten yearsSorry, but this thought sends me into fits of laughter,
although I'm sure you had your moments of despair in
that situation. But Tarjei as an "alien" is amusing.
(Imagining your spacecraft.) Not to make light of your
circumstances at all, but just for the record, my
husband was an "illegal alien" in a sense, too, when
he first came to the U.S. He was a political refugee,
and went through all the legal hoops to become "legal,"
yet he wouldn't be allowed back into his home country.
So, again, legal according to *whom* becomes an issue.
> by overstaying my six months' visa. But it wasn't aThat's right, and one can never fully understand "white
> problem, not even with my special type of name, because
> I was white, I was blue-eyed, I spoke fluent American
> English and so on. The illegal alien thing is basically
> racist; white Europeans, Canadians, and Australians
> have no problems - well, not before the Patriot Act
> anyway; now it's different, very different.
privilege" from the perspective of the other unless one
has walked in the other's shoes.
> You know that poem, "Undocumented Aliens," which IAt the end of this posting, I'm going to copy and paste
> wrote in Phoenix in 1981, do you know what brought it on?
> I was a cab driver in Phoenix in those days, and sometimes
> I had some interesting assignments, I got the cab full
> of Mexicans who didn't speak a word of English, but
> they managed to direct me, through Tempe and Mesa
> and way, way out in the desert, where they paid their
> fare from the meter, and then I saw they headed for
> some bushes where all their buddies and maybe families
> were. In the bushes! They were illegal Mexicans!
an article I just found that details what is happening
here, the legal actions taken to fight illegal immigration.
My understanding is that this is making international
news, and conversations about it are ongoing. The
Dallas Peace Center has gotten involved, to try and
help smooth over some of the very bruised feelings.
> I remember bringing up the subject with my fellowThanks for sharing your story, Tarjei!
> cabbies on the stands downtown Phoenix and at the
> Sky Harbor Airport, and they just said "they're not
> supposed to be here." I almost said, "Well, neither
> am I, I'm just as illegal as they are." But I didn't.
> I kept shooting the breeze with the local police at
> coffee shops and bars, nobody knew I was an illegal
> unless I told them. But those Mexicans were petrified.
> At one time I didn't quite understand the directions
> they were giving me, so I was about to ask a traffic
> cop for help, innocent and naive as I was I guess,
> but they panicked at that, which made me realize they
> were illegals, so I let it go.
> Quite ironic that I, who had only been on the Western
> hemisphere for a few years, and was indeed an illegal,
> could live openly like that as a normal person, but
> those poor Mexicans who had been around for millennia
> had to hide in the bushes!
> So now you understand the phrase: "I saw one in the
> bushes with a funny-looking face." That's them. And
> you also understand: "Undocumented aliens are roaming
> around wild. One could be your governor - another one
> your child!" And: "Rumors say that aliens look just
> like some of us!" That's me.
Farmers Branch OKs Illegal Immigration Measures
(AP) FARMERS BRANCH Council members in Farmers Branch unanimously
approved tough new anti-illegal immigration measures Monday evening,
including one that makes English the official language.
In a series of 6-0 votes, the council members also approved fines for
landlords and businesses that deal with illegal immigrants, and
allowed local authorities to screen suspects in police custody to see
if they are in the country illegally.
The votes were made in a room in City Hall packed with people who
clapped as the votes were tallied in favor of the measures. In a
parking lot outside, hundreds of protesters against the rules hoisted
American flags and sang the Pledge of Allegiance in English before
the votes were taken.
The vote came up in a public meeting Monday evening after an all-day
closed meeting with the city attorney where council members discussed
the legal ramifications of the proposals, intended to keep illegal
immigrants away from the city.
Opponents of the measures, meanwhile, collected signatures on a
petition urging the city not to become the first in Texas to pass
such strong anti-immigrant laws. They submitted more than 80
signatures to the mayor's office Monday.
Supporters say the ordinances are necessary because the federal
government has failed to address the issue.
But critics argued the proposals could lead to sanctioned
discrimination and racism.
"It's very much against the very fiber of this nation," said Mike
Ghouse, a homebuilder with a local group called Foundation for
Pluralism who has an office in Farmers Branch.
Attorneys with the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational
Fund, a civil rights advocacy group, told city council members during
the closed meeting that the proposals could violate federal law.
The group said it would evaluate any measures approved by the council
to determine their legality.
The rules could force untrained business owners and landlords to
evaluate a wide array of immigration documents to determine if the
person carrying them is legally in the country, MALDEF staff attorney
Marisol Perez said.
"You're putting them in the shoes of an immigration officer," she
said she told council members.
More than 50 municipalities nationwide have considered, passed or
rejected similar laws, but until now that trend hasn't been matched
in the Lone Star State.
Such sentiments and the proposed ordinances trouble many people in
Texas, where many Latino families can trace their roots here to the
era before statehood.
Since 1970, Farmers Branch has changed from a small, predominantly
white bedroom community with a declining population to a city of
almost 28,000 people, about 37 percent of them Hispanic, according to
the census. It also is home to more than 80 corporate headquarters
and more than 2,600 small and mid-size firms, many of them minority-
"They're afraid that Farmers Branch is becoming Hispanic," said
Christopher McGuire, a resident of the city and spokesman for a group
called United Farmers Branch. "It's going to happen, and that's not a
The local debate over illegal immigration began in August and spawned
demonstrations by both sides.
The proposals follow a vote this year in Hazleton, Pa., to fine
landlords who rent to illegal immigrants, deny business permits to
companies that employ them and require tenants to register and pay
for a rental permit.
However, a federal judge temporarily blocked enforcement of the
Hazleton ordinance while he considers a lawsuit against the town by
the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund, the American Civil
Liberties Union and other groups.
(© 2006 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may
not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.)