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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Preventing terrorism

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  • Tarjei Straume
    ... She s impressive, Amy Goodman. A real work horse with a keen sense of humor, which is a must. At first I thought she was an ideologue of sorts, an ideology
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 3, 2007
      Mike H wrote:

      I Love Amy and Democracy Now. I used to watch her on FSTV along with a ton of other programs that require a bit of thinking from the watcher.

      She's impressive, Amy Goodman. A real work horse with a keen sense of humor, which is a must. At first I thought she was an ideologue of sorts, an ideology with which I had a lot in common, but nevertheless some political agenda. That initial perception was changed very quickly; it's simply critical journalism on a quest for human decency. I'm most of all impressed by AG's professionalism and versatility and scope, and her fascinating guests. People with credibility and long track records, people in Congress, former CIA people and retired generals, top investigative reporters around the world, and her special flashback, often connected to various anniversaries, feature old timers from the Black Panther Party and the Weather Underground, - and during the break introducing Weather Underground people who were on the run from the FBI and so on, we get to listen to Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues" with the fitting phrase, "You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows....." . Yep, Democracy Now! is top of the line, and I'm a huge fan.

      One of AG's most recent interviews was a full hour with retired four-star general Wesley Clark, the guy who bombed Kosovo as NATO supreme commander. Here is one helluva spicy excerpt:

      http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/02/1440234

      GEN. WESLEY CLARK: (.............) About ten days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of the generals called me in. He said, “Sir, you’ve got to come in and talk to me a second.” I said, “Well, you’re too busy.” He said, “No, no.” He says, “We’ve made the decision we’re going to war with Iraq.” This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, “We’re going to war with Iraq? Why?” He said, “I don’t know.” He said, “I guess they don’t know what else to do.” So I said, “Well, did they find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?” He said, “No, no.” He says, “There’s nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq.” He said, “I guess it’s like we don’t know what to do about terrorists, but we’ve got a good military and we can take down governments.” And he said, “I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail.”

      So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” -- meaning the Secretary of Defense’s office -- “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.” And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, “You remember that?” He said, “Sir, I didn’t show you that memo! I didn’t show it to you!”

      AMY GOODMAN: I’m sorry. What did you say his name was?

      GEN. WESLEY CLARK: I’m not going to give you his name.

      AMY GOODMAN: So, go through the countries again.

      GEN. WESLEY CLARK: Well, starting with Iraq, then Syria and Lebanon, then Libya, then Somalia and Sudan, and back to Iran.

      Cheers,

      Tarjei
    • kmlightseeker
      Hi Mike, ... Interesting idea and one that should be given serious thought to. However, I wonder whose interests this will be serving. Sure, assuming this
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 4, 2007
        Hi Mike,


        Mike H wrote:
        >
        > http://proposal.permanentpeace.org/index.html
        >

        Interesting idea and one that should be given serious thought to.

        However, I wonder whose interests this will be serving. Sure, assuming
        this works, there will be greater peace but will there be a greater
        sense of wellbeing among *all* levels in the world's population?

        Will there be both prosperity and sustenance for all? Will there be
        equity and fairness for all in the peaceable society, or will this
        continuous peace serve to create a more passive, compliant society?


        Regards,

        Keith
      • write3chairs
        ... Please forgive me for snipping all that came before this. I just wanted to say thank you for such an enlightening post. When saying illegal, one must
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 4, 2007
          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" wrote:

          > Undocumented Aliens
          >
          > Undocumented aliens arrive from outer space.
          > I saw one in the bushes with a funny-looking face.
          > The papers say they're coming from some place in Mexico,
          > but I have seen them jump out from a giant UFO!
          >
          > The Pentagon is worried about alien attacks.
          > Some people tell me aliens have liquid on their backs!
          > They went to Mars in search of them but could not find a trace.
          > One immigration lawyer flew to Venus on a case.
          >
          > The INS is frantic, and they don't know what to do.
          > They're handing out those green cards, but some aliens are blue!
          > Red alert is on, and there's an awful lot of fuss -
          > Rumors say that aliens look just like some of us!
          >
          > Undocumented aliens are roaming around wild.
          > One could be your governor - another one your child!
          > With eighteen federal files on every native motorist,
          > they'd better find those aliens and add them to the list!

          Please forgive me for "snipping" all that came before this. I just
          wanted to say thank you for such an enlightening post. When
          saying "illegal," one must ask: According to *whose* laws? What is
          happening with regard to immigration here now is that people of
          Hispanic heritage are being targeted for discrimination, and that is
          wrong. This is why all the controversy and hurt feelings
          (justifiably) are happening. It's kind of like the Black person who
          gets pulled over by the racist cop, simply for being Black. Same deal
          with Hispanic people, who are under scrutiny because the "illegals"
          here happen to be of that same heritage. Injustice is sometimes hard
          to fight for, especially when a person is in the midst of it.

          I think of Eli Wiesel, Holocaust survivor who said some very
          significant things with regard to his situation. He mistrusts words
          to convey accurately the horror of what he experienced in the death
          camps. He asks, "How does one describe the indescribable? How does
          one use restraint in recreating the fall of mankind and the eclipse
          of the gods? And then, how can one be sure that the words, once
          uttered, will not betray, distort the message they bear?"

          Some things in life are that serious. He goes on: "So heavy was my
          anguish that I made a vow not to speak, not to touch upon the
          essential for at least ten years...."

          Think of what he is saying here. This is a man who suffered
          unspeakable injustice, evil so great that it silenced him.

          Wiesel comes to this: "Maybe in a mystical way I thought I could
          purify language before using it for the sacred purpose of
          communicating the uncommunicable." He wanted to do it right, for
          justice to be served, finally.

          Thanks again, Tarjei.

          Jennifer
        • elfuncle
          ... is ... Oh yes, hispanics have always been racially profiled, targeted, for suspicion of illegal alienism. And the irony is that most of them are Indians,
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 4, 2007
            Jennifer wrote:

            > Please forgive me for "snipping" all that came before this. I just
            > wanted to say thank you for such an enlightening post. When
            > saying "illegal," one must ask: According to *whose* laws? What is
            > happening with regard to immigration here now is that people of
            > Hispanic heritage are being targeted for discrimination, and that
            is
            > wrong. This is why all the controversy and hurt feelings
            > (justifiably) are happening.

            Oh yes, hispanics have always been racially profiled, targeted, for
            suspicion of illegal alienism. And the irony is that most of them
            are Indians, Spanish speaking Indians, whose ancestors were in North
            America long before there were any white people there or any US-
            Mexican border. As I said, I was an illegal alien for over ten years
            by overstaying my six months' visa. But it wasn't a problem, not
            even with my special type of name, because I was white, I was blue-
            eyed, I spoke fluent American English and so on. The illegal alien
            thing is basically racist; white Europeans, Canadians, and
            Australians have no problems - well, not before the Patriot Act
            anyway; now it's different, very different.

            You know that poem, "Undocumented Aliens," which I wrote in Phoenix
            in 1981, do you know what brought it on? I was a cab driver in
            Phoenix in those days, and sometimes I had some interesting
            assignments, I got the cab full of Mexicans who didn't speak a word
            of English, but they managed to direct me, through Tempe and Mesa
            and way, way out in the desert, where they paid their fare from the
            meter, and then I saw they headed for some bushes where all their
            buddies and maybe families were. In the bushes! They were illegal
            Mexicans!

            I remember bringing up the subject with my fellow cabbies on the
            stands downtown Phoenix and at the Sky Harbor Airport, and they just
            said "they're not supposed to be here." I almost said, "Well,
            neither am I, I'm just as illegal as they are." But I didn't. I kept
            shooting the breeze with the local police at coffee shops and bars,
            nobody knew I was an illegal unless I told them. But those Mexicans
            were petrified. At one time I didn't quite understand the directions
            they were giving me, so I was about to ask a traffic cop for help,
            innocent and naive as I was I guess, but they panicked at that,
            which made me realize they were illegals, so I let it go.

            Quite ironic that I, who had only been on the Western hemisphere for
            a few years, and was indeed an illegal, could live openly like that
            as a normal person, but those poor Mexicans who had been around for
            millennia had to hide in the bushes!

            So now you understand the phrase: "I saw one in the bushes with a
            funny-looking face." That's them. And you also
            understand: "Undocumented aliens are roaming around wild. One could
            be your governor - another one your child!" And: "Rumors say that
            aliens look just like some of us!" That's me.

            Tarjei
          • Mike helsher
            ... assuming ... Hey Keith. Good questions. I would personally speculate that yes, there would be greater sense of well being for all, to a degree. Mainly
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 4, 2007
              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "kmlightseeker"
              <kmlightseeker@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Mike,
              >
              >
              > Mike H wrote:
              > >
              > > http://proposal.permanentpeace.org/index.html
              > >
              >
              > Interesting idea and one that should be given serious thought to.
              >
              > However, I wonder whose interests this will be serving. Sure,
              assuming
              > this works, there will be greater peace but will there be a greater
              > sense of wellbeing among *all* levels in the world's population?
              >
              > Will there be both prosperity and sustenance for all? Will there be
              > equity and fairness for all in the peaceable society, or will this
              > continuous peace serve to create a more passive, compliant society?
              >
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Keith

              Hey Keith.

              Good questions. I would personally speculate that yes, there would be
              greater sense of well being for all, to a degree. Mainly because
              there would have to be a greater population of people that actually
              THINK for themselves, and have command of their feelings, for ideas
              like this to perpetuate.

              Depends too on what definition of Peace that we use. I think that
              most people would agree that individual Inner peace, creates outer
              peace. But, in our age, true personal inner peace is attained
              individually, which is a product of whole human education (like what
              Waldorf tries to create). "Our highest endaevor must be to develope
              humans who are able themselves to impart perpose and direction in
              their lives".

              Individual perpose and direction, in accord with the kind of morality
              that RS points to in the POF, where if we're truly thinking
              intutively, we cannot but meet at the same intention (roughly
              paraphrased) would not make more passive or compliant people. To the
              contrary: I think it would create more lively and assertive
              individuals that think with the unending possibilities that are
              possible when we truly think "with the power of Love in spiritual
              form".

              A tall order for sure. But I think that initiatives like the link
              above are pointing in a better direction, if not a perfect one.

              Mike
              >
            • write3chairs
              ... Oh, yeah. Don t get me started on that. You do know, don t you, that the Father of Education in Texas was a leading oppressor of Native Americans (he
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 5, 2007
                Tarjei wrote:

                > Oh yes, hispanics have always been racially profiled,
                > targeted, for suspicion of illegal alienism. And the
                > irony is that most of them are Indians, Spanish speaking
                > Indians, whose ancestors were in North America long before
                > there were any white people there or any US-Mexican border.

                Oh, yeah. Don't get me started on that. You do know,
                don't you, that the "Father of Education" in Texas
                was a leading oppressor of Native Americans (he chased
                them out of the state), a protector of slavery, and
                much more. His name was Mirabeau Buonaparte Lamar.

                > As I said, I was an illegal alien for over ten years

                Sorry, but this thought sends me into fits of laughter,
                although I'm sure you had your moments of despair in
                that situation. But Tarjei as an "alien" is amusing.
                (Imagining your spacecraft.) Not to make light of your
                circumstances at all, but just for the record, my
                husband was an "illegal alien" in a sense, too, when
                he first came to the U.S. He was a political refugee,
                and went through all the legal hoops to become "legal,"
                yet he wouldn't be allowed back into his home country.
                So, again, legal according to *whom* becomes an issue.

                > by overstaying my six months' visa. But it wasn't a
                > problem, not even with my special type of name, because
                > I was white, I was blue-eyed, I spoke fluent American
                > English and so on. The illegal alien thing is basically
                > racist; white Europeans, Canadians, and Australians
                > have no problems - well, not before the Patriot Act
                > anyway; now it's different, very different.

                That's right, and one can never fully understand "white
                privilege" from the perspective of the other unless one
                has walked in the other's shoes.

                > You know that poem, "Undocumented Aliens," which I
                > wrote in Phoenix in 1981, do you know what brought it on?
                > I was a cab driver in Phoenix in those days, and sometimes
                > I had some interesting assignments, I got the cab full
                > of Mexicans who didn't speak a word of English, but
                > they managed to direct me, through Tempe and Mesa
                > and way, way out in the desert, where they paid their
                > fare from the meter, and then I saw they headed for
                > some bushes where all their buddies and maybe families
                > were. In the bushes! They were illegal Mexicans!

                At the end of this posting, I'm going to copy and paste
                an article I just found that details what is happening
                here, the legal actions taken to fight illegal immigration.
                My understanding is that this is making international
                news, and conversations about it are ongoing. The
                Dallas Peace Center has gotten involved, to try and
                help smooth over some of the very bruised feelings.

                > I remember bringing up the subject with my fellow
                > cabbies on the stands downtown Phoenix and at the
                > Sky Harbor Airport, and they just said "they're not
                > supposed to be here." I almost said, "Well, neither
                > am I, I'm just as illegal as they are." But I didn't.
                > I kept shooting the breeze with the local police at
                > coffee shops and bars, nobody knew I was an illegal
                > unless I told them. But those Mexicans were petrified.
                > At one time I didn't quite understand the directions
                > they were giving me, so I was about to ask a traffic
                > cop for help, innocent and naive as I was I guess,
                > but they panicked at that, which made me realize they
                > were illegals, so I let it go.
                >
                > Quite ironic that I, who had only been on the Western
                > hemisphere for a few years, and was indeed an illegal,
                > could live openly like that as a normal person, but
                > those poor Mexicans who had been around for millennia
                > had to hide in the bushes!
                >
                > So now you understand the phrase: "I saw one in the
                > bushes with a funny-looking face." That's them. And
                > you also understand: "Undocumented aliens are roaming
                > around wild. One could be your governor - another one
                > your child!" And: "Rumors say that aliens look just
                > like some of us!" That's me.

                Thanks for sharing your story, Tarjei!

                Cheers,
                Jennifer

                ---
                Farmers Branch OKs Illegal Immigration Measures

                (AP) FARMERS BRANCH Council members in Farmers Branch unanimously
                approved tough new anti-illegal immigration measures Monday evening,
                including one that makes English the official language.

                In a series of 6-0 votes, the council members also approved fines for
                landlords and businesses that deal with illegal immigrants, and
                allowed local authorities to screen suspects in police custody to see
                if they are in the country illegally.

                The votes were made in a room in City Hall packed with people who
                clapped as the votes were tallied in favor of the measures. In a
                parking lot outside, hundreds of protesters against the rules hoisted
                American flags and sang the Pledge of Allegiance in English before
                the votes were taken.

                The vote came up in a public meeting Monday evening after an all-day
                closed meeting with the city attorney where council members discussed
                the legal ramifications of the proposals, intended to keep illegal
                immigrants away from the city.

                Opponents of the measures, meanwhile, collected signatures on a
                petition urging the city not to become the first in Texas to pass
                such strong anti-immigrant laws. They submitted more than 80
                signatures to the mayor's office Monday.

                Supporters say the ordinances are necessary because the federal
                government has failed to address the issue.

                But critics argued the proposals could lead to sanctioned
                discrimination and racism.

                "It's very much against the very fiber of this nation," said Mike
                Ghouse, a homebuilder with a local group called Foundation for
                Pluralism who has an office in Farmers Branch.

                Attorneys with the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational
                Fund, a civil rights advocacy group, told city council members during
                the closed meeting that the proposals could violate federal law.

                The group said it would evaluate any measures approved by the council
                to determine their legality.

                The rules could force untrained business owners and landlords to
                evaluate a wide array of immigration documents to determine if the
                person carrying them is legally in the country, MALDEF staff attorney
                Marisol Perez said.

                "You're putting them in the shoes of an immigration officer," she
                said she told council members.

                More than 50 municipalities nationwide have considered, passed or
                rejected similar laws, but until now that trend hasn't been matched
                in the Lone Star State.

                Such sentiments and the proposed ordinances trouble many people in
                Texas, where many Latino families can trace their roots here to the
                era before statehood.

                Since 1970, Farmers Branch has changed from a small, predominantly
                white bedroom community with a declining population to a city of
                almost 28,000 people, about 37 percent of them Hispanic, according to
                the census. It also is home to more than 80 corporate headquarters
                and more than 2,600 small and mid-size firms, many of them minority-
                owned.

                "They're afraid that Farmers Branch is becoming Hispanic," said
                Christopher McGuire, a resident of the city and spokesman for a group
                called United Farmers Branch. "It's going to happen, and that's not a
                bad thing."

                The local debate over illegal immigration began in August and spawned
                demonstrations by both sides.

                The proposals follow a vote this year in Hazleton, Pa., to fine
                landlords who rent to illegal immigrants, deny business permits to
                companies that employ them and require tenants to register and pay
                for a rental permit.

                However, a federal judge temporarily blocked enforcement of the
                Hazleton ordinance while he considers a lawsuit against the town by
                the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund, the American Civil
                Liberties Union and other groups.


                (© 2006 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may
                not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.)

                http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_317205232.html
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