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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Half-baked quest

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  • Tarjei Straume
    ... The deed conceived there - was it the killing of JFK or the launching of the Dallas TV soap? Or perhaps both? ... Well, to Jung everything was symbols
    Message 1 of 121 , Mar 3, 2007
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      Jennifer wrote:

      >Tarjei wrote:
      >
      > > Someone in Dallas once said that the city went into a slump and
      > > depression after the JFK assassination - Dallas was blamed for JFK,
      > > but L.A. wasn't blamed for his brother Robert - but then the image
      > > and the spirits were lifted by that silly TV soap with Larry Hagman,
      > > who permanently adopted an accent that wasn't his.
      >
      >It's true, Tarjei. Dallas is to blame. City, TV show, it doesn't
      >matter. More than likely, that deed was conceived right here on the
      >SMU campus, where I am sitting, in the Fondren library, watching
      >people and fiddling around on the Internet. :)

      The deed conceived there - was it the killing of JFK or the launching
      of the "Dallas" TV soap? Or perhaps both?

      >I came across something earlier and thought it might make good
      >fodder for discussion here, or at least as a side act for the
      >circus. Carl Jung once said the most important question anyone can
      >ask is: What myth am I living?

      Well, to Jung everything was symbols and dreams and myths and so on.
      He developed many of these ideas from Steiner indirectly, through one
      of his patients. (I have the details on this floating around
      somewhere in a very, very old mail from Peter Norman Waage
      (mid-nineties). The difference, though, between Jung and Steiner the
      way I see it, is that Steiner describes reality and truth, and if he
      talks about a myth or a symbol, he describes the hard-nosed fact
      behind it, what it stands for. Jung just talks myths and dreams and
      symbols and says that's what we are. I, for one, want to wake up and
      not just keep floating there.

      > > Incidentally, a great deal of attention has been devoted to the
      > > subject of thinking with numerous discussions about the PoF
      > > epistemology; perhaps we should propose a marathon thinking
      > > competition in the AT sports arena - two teams maybe, consisting of
      > > spicy vs critical thinkers.
      >
      >Which team will you be on?

      Tha depends, my dear, upon who the other players are and how they
      choose to play. I'd be happy to play on both teams, switching back
      and forth, if necessary. But I think the PoF calls for critical
      thinking, not spicy thinking.

      Tarjei
    • write3chairs
      ... Okay, cool! ... Thank you for this, Tarjei. ... That s very interesting, too. Frank, today I ve been reading from hypnotherapist Michael Newton s book,
      Message 121 of 121 , Mar 8, 2007
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        Tarjei wrote:

        > I've found the old email, but half of it is missing -
        > it was on an old CD in a different format for Eudora,
        > and it's barely readable. (I can see that I brought
        > up the subject on the old "Spiritual Science" list in
        > January 1999, which I recall brought on quite a stir with
        > Bobby Matherne.) And the irony of it all is that the
        > text disappears in the middle of this thing about
        > Jung and Steiner, so I'll share what I have and add
        > from memory. I'll be happy to contact Waage for a
        > replay, but he may be out of town and out of country,
        > because he hasn't been answering lately.

        Okay, cool!

        > What brought this up between Waage and myself in
        > 1996 was the topic of Andrei Belyj - the Russian poet
        > with that moving description of Rudolf Steiner at
        > http://uncletaz.com/belyi.html which was also I
        > think published at Frank's SCR -
        >
        > Anyway, Waage commands fluent Russian and has spent
        > many years there, made his name as reporter in Norway
        > because he's an expert on Russia and Russian literature,
        > and then he's also an anthro and he flipped when I
        > mentioned Belyj, whom he found very exciting, so he
        > told me a lot of stuff - such as the guy (Belyj) wrote
        > eight autobiographies, including his book about Steiner
        > and Blok, and one of those had been published in 1992:
        > "Geheime Aufzeichnungen. Erinnerungen an das Leben
        > im Umkreis Rudolf Steiners".
        >
        > This book is a strange rendition of some sort of psychotic
        > breakdown that happened to Belyj while he was in Dornach -
        > and Waage says this book "was written ten years later with
        > a little eerie absolute faith in the reality of something
        > that must have been hallucinations and distorted perceptions
        > (about anthroposophical spies who climb the trees outside
        > his window, for instance.) I myself am waiting for the
        > publication of a three volume cultural history that Belyj
        > wrote, and that are lying in the archives in Moscow.
        > One gets kind of full of his autobiographies after a while."
        >
        > Waage then talks about Magnus Ljunggren's doctoral thesis,
        > a study about Belyj he recommends, this study is about Belyj
        > and Steiner, but because Ljunggren is a convinced Freudian,
        > he views the entire relationship as a wish by Belyj for a
        > homo-erotic fructification of Steiner(!). The book still has
        > lots of important information. In 1994 another book by
        > Ljunggren had been published about a friend and later
        > polemical opponent of Belyj, namely Emil Medtner:
        > "The Russian Mephisto". Big parts of this book are about
        > Belyj and Steiner, and then there is what Waage calls
        > "the raisin inside the sausage": Namely that while Belyj
        > had found his teacher in Steiner, Medtner had found his
        > teacher in Jung. And here the old 1996 email text breaks,
        > so what I recall is that when Belyj and Medtner were
        > friends, Belyj would fill Medtner with anthroposophy and
        > make an anthro out of him more or less, perhaps by bringing
        > him along to Steiner's lectures. And then later, when
        > Medtner became Jung's patient and pupil or whatever and
        > went into psychotherapy with him, he gave him all this
        > anthro-babble he had picked up from Belyj, or perhaps some
        > of it directly from Steiner when attending his lectures.
        > So there he is, Medtner on Jung's couch (I guess) with
        > his eyes closed being instructed to talk about his childhood
        > (I guess) and he gives him anthro-babble - the cosmology
        > and the full package. And Jung writes all this down,
        > fascinated, and he develops his theory of dreams and
        > symbols and such, indirectly inflence by Steiner through
        > Belyj and Medtner!
        >
        > That's all I've got on this. This is basement stuff, man,
        > because it's so rumorous sort of, and it's something I bet
        > the Hole Dwellers would like to get their teeth into some
        > of it, so I hope I haven't been one of the hens in that
        > feather story but simply repeated faithfully what I've heard :)

        Thank you for this, Tarjei.

        > Frank wrote:
        >
        > Jung never mentioned Steiner in his writings (as far as I
        > know) and didn't even accept the possibility of reincarnation
        > until nearly the end of his life (Dreams, Memories, Reflections.)

        That's very interesting, too. Frank, today I've been reading from
        hypnotherapist Michael Newton's book, "Life Between Lives." A few
        things came to my attention. One of them is something he calls
        Atlantis Attraction, which involves conscious thoughts that interfere
        with the subconscious unfolding of details about lives lived in the
        past. In this case, a client might have learned a great deal about a
        particular period in history, "a conscious attraction to certain well-
        known events and familiar myths." He says that when these attractive
        aspects of the past drive memory and distort recall, the need to
        disengage conscious thought interference arises. He does this by
        asking the client to pause (while under hypnosis) to review his or
        her memories, to verify location. This can push away the conscious
        thoughts and open the channel to the unconscious. He says faulty
        reporting also arises out of something he calls Famous Person
        Syndrome. He tells about three Marilyn Monroe cases he had; in one of
        these, the client came to realize she was not a reincarned Marilyn
        but instead a housekeeper for the actress.

        And here is something else interesting: "In life between lives
        regression, the good news is that once in the spirit world the
        conscious mind does not seem to interfere to any great degree with
        the superconscious except when reviewing past life incarnations."

        A little later on, he says: "Truths may initially be clouded by
        desired fantasies, strong belief systems, repressed fears, or simply
        unhappiness with a current life the client thinks is dull."

        Then: "Memories that you suspect are faulty through conscious
        misconceptions can be handled by gentle challenging of critical
        questioning." (The words "conscious misconceptions" stand out here.)

        And just one more thing, he emphasizes the need to do something that
        reminds me of the idea of reframing, or "thickening" a too-thin
        story: "Moving back and forth in various time frames while going over
        the same ground is effective."

        I don't know, you may or may not find this of value. For some reason,
        I'm fascinated by these ideas.

        Cheers from the couch,
        Jennifer

        > Sweet non-Jungian dreams,
        >
        > Tarjei
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