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Re: Preventing terrorism

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  • write3chairs
    ... Hey there, Mike! I have been spending time lately at William C. Moyers website. Since the publication last year of his book, Broken, he s been getting
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 2, 2007
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      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher" wrote:

      > Thinking about the repeat of the contra affair is a little
      > creepy to me, cause it might include another step up on a new
      > "war on drugs" also. War, oil, drugs, and crime punishment
      > are highly profitable for the business party, that rides high
      > on a mountain of disposable people.

      Hey there, Mike! I have been spending time lately at William C.
      Moyers' website. Since the publication last year of his
      book, "Broken," he's been getting more and more attention. This
      sentence jumped out at me yesterday, and I thought to share it here
      since it directly relates to what you say about drugs. Moyers
      writes: "The war on drugs is a war against people who do illegal and
      insane things when they drink or drug." Isn't that what it comes down
      to? It's a war against people, not against the substance called
      drugs.

      > I certainly want to stay aware of current affairs like this,
      > but I think I'm changing direction a bit, and instead of just
      > complaining with lively spicy words, Im going to put some
      > energy and thought into some ideas that premote posivite
      > change in the opposite direction of the Bush cabal. Mainly
      > by going deeper into the well spring of my own spicy mind
      > and creating an aura of reverence around my body so bright
      > that evil dooers like Chaney will melt like the wicked witch
      > of the west in my exalted and Holy presence.

      Wow....

      > [Mike prays in preperation for yet another long interesting
      > trip down into the rabbit hole]
      >
      > All prayers and blessings are greatfully accepted.

      Do let us know how it all comes out, okay?

      Jennifer

      > Mike
    • Tarjei Straume
      ... Oh please please don t get me started on this again. This is my only comment on this subject: The above definition of War On Drugs is wrong. The war on
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 2, 2007
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        Jennifer wrote:

        Hey there, Mike! I have been spending time lately at William C. Moyers' website. Since the publication last year of his book, "Broken," he's been getting more and more attention. This sentence jumped out at me yesterday, and I thought to share it here since it directly relates to what you say about drugs. Moyers writes: "The war on drugs is a war against people who do illegal and insane things when they drink or drug." Isn't that what it comes down to? It's a war against people, not against the substance called drugs.

        Oh please please don't get me started on this again. This is my only comment on this subject:

        The above definition of War On Drugs is wrong. "The war on drugs is a war against people...." So far so good. The problem is the "who" - "war against people who. Who what? Doing insane and illegal things when high? Like serial killing maybe? Engaging in holocaust denial perhaps? The war on drugs is not limited to substance users who do insane things, or illegal things (other than taking a puff from a pipe or dropping a pill).

        The war on drugs is a war against anyone who not only happens to to prefer a stimulant that J. Edgar Hoover and evildoers of his ilk have officially declared to be non-standard, it's even against those who refuse to share the governmen'ts opinions and exercise free speech. Kids get dismissed from school for saying that drogs don't kill you. If someone asks you how to grow marijuana, you can be prosecuted for answering the question.

        The War on Drugs is an excuse for the police and customs officials to stop anyone at random, strip them naked, dig in their rectums and vaginas with plastic gloves and stick tubes down their throats into their stomochs, force-feed them laxatives and things that make them puke for hours until they pass out. Drugs are so convenient, because stolen property is rarely that small except diamonds, and they don't have probable cause to beat up bums and transients in their paddy wagons in search of diamonds if the person hasn't done anything "insane or illegal."

        Doing insane and illegal things my ass. That''s certainly not a requirement. The problem is people getting arrested, not for what they do when high, but just for being high.

        "There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Philipino's and Entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others."
        -- Harry Anslinger, Commissioner of Narcotics to Congress, why marijuana should be made illegal, 1937.
        (Marijuana Tax Act, signed August 2 1937; effective Oct.1, 1937)

        But we ain't seen nothin' yet. Terror is the big thing now, because drugs don't scare the way it used to. They just have to make them bombs much smaller, very much smaller, so they can search your panties and inside your ears and up your nose to find a smart nuke or other terror weapon.

        I've got to get back to my nice and serene and lofty, positive thoughts and energies to get in tune with Jo Ann and Mike H. I've got all of "Weeds" season 1 and 2 downloaded; perhaps I should re-watch some episodes. A few years ago, when newsgroups (usenets) were still in vogue, I got a big kick out of the conversations, jargons, vernacular, tone, rhythm, at the marijuana-related discussion groups btw. Just reading people's posts gave you a high.

        Before I go:

        http://www.archive.org/details/reefer_madness_ipod

        Tarjei
      • write3chairs
        ... The old cause and effect, sounds like. My drug days are long gone; haven t puffed a pipe in many a year. Yet merely being high is hardly cause for
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 3, 2007
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          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume wrote:

          > Oh please please don't get me started on this again.
          > This is my only comment on this subject:
          >
          > The above definition of War On Drugs is wrong.
          > "The war on drugs is a war against people...."
          > So far so good. The problem is the "who" -
          > "war against people who. Who what? Doing insane
          > and illegal things when high? Like serial killing
          > maybe? Engaging in holocaust denial perhaps?
          > The war on drugs is not limited to substance users
          > who do insane things, or illegal things (other
          > than taking a puff from a pipe or dropping a pill).
          >
          > The war on drugs is a war against anyone who not
          > only happens to to prefer a stimulant that J. Edgar
          > Hoover and evildoers of his ilk have officially
          > declared to be non-standard, it's even against those
          > who refuse to share the governmen'ts opinions and
          > exercise free speech.
          > Kids get dismissed from school for saying that drogs
          > don't kill you.
          > If someone asks you how to grow marijuana, you can
          > be prosecuted for answering the question.
          >
          > The War on Drugs is an excuse for the police and
          > customs officials to stop anyone at random, strip
          > them naked, dig in their rectums and vaginas with
          > plastic gloves and stick tubes down their throats
          > into their stomochs, force-feed them laxatives and
          > things that make them puke for hours until they
          > pass out. Drugs are so convenient, because stolen
          > property is rarely that small except diamonds, and
          > they don't have probable cause to beat up bums and
          > transients in their paddy wagons in search of diamonds
          > if the person hasn't done anything "insane or illegal."
          >
          > Doing insane and illegal things my ass. That''s
          > certainly not a requirement. The problem is people
          > getting arrested, not for what they do when high,
          > but just for being high.

          The old cause and effect, sounds like. My "drug days"
          are long gone; haven't puffed a pipe in many a year.
          Yet merely being high is hardly cause for arrest,
          although that's the reality. People *are* arrested
          for it, while driving that way, for example. But
          what about just being out in public that way, even
          if no substance is found on your person? Is that
          a crime? Can "highness" be proven? With drug testing,
          yes. Then what? I *choose* not to imbibe anymore,
          not for any fear of being caught but just because
          there's no place for it in my life. It doesn't add
          any value and, thus, I don't think about it much.

          This is not really a related issue, but it sort of
          is, in the way that it affects people. There is an
          issue at large here in my community; I haven't been
          paying much attention to it other than noticing
          it's created a lot of controversy and strife. This
          is the issue of illegal immigration and its effects
          in neighborhoods. One one level, I say I don't care
          because it doesn't directly affect me. If someone
          is here illegally, managed to sneak into the country,
          how does that affect *me* unless the person somehow
          infringes upon my life. It's kind of a ripple effect,
          though, like tossing a stone in water and watching
          what happens. The illegal person must live, find
          means of support somehow; and the choices s/he makes
          can indeed affect me in some way, small or great.
          What I'm getting at here is that with regard to
          illegal immigrants *or* stoned people, I could say:
          "Who cares," and continue minding my own business.
          But if everyone thouht that way, then what?

          > "There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the
          > US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Philipino's
          > and Entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and
          > swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana
          > causes white women to seek sexual relations with
          > Negroes, entertainers and any others."
          > -- Harry Anslinger, Commissioner of Narcotics
          > to Congress, why marijuana should be made illegal, 1937.
          > (Marijuana Tax Act, signed August 2 1937; effective Oct.1, 1937)

          Why does Little Richard all of a sudden come to mind?

          > But we ain't seen nothin' yet. Terror is the big thing
          > now, because drugs don't scare the way it used to. They
          > just have to make them bombs much smaller, very much
          > smaller, so they can search your panties and inside
          > your ears and up your nose to find a smart nuke or
          > other terror weapon.
          >
          > I've got to get back to my nice and serene and lofty,
          > positive thoughts and energies to get in tune with
          > Jo Ann and Mike H. I've got all of "Weeds" season
          > 1 and 2 downloaded; perhaps I should re-watch
          > some episodes. A few years ago, when newsgroups
          > (usenets) were still in vogue, I got a big kick out
          > of the conversations, jargons, vernacular, tone,
          > rhythm, at the marijuana-related discussion groups
          > btw. Just reading people's posts gave you a high.
          >
          > Before I go:
          >
          > http://www.archive.org/details/reefer_madness_ipod

          Boy, I remember that one, Tarjei. We had so much fun
          as teenagers watching Reefer Madness. Great propaganda!

          Back down the hole again,
          Jennifer

          > Tarjei
        • write3chairs
          ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o4ohFfBOpQ&NR
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 3, 2007
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          • Tarjei Straume
            ... She s impressive, Amy Goodman. A real work horse with a keen sense of humor, which is a must. At first I thought she was an ideologue of sorts, an ideology
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 3, 2007
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              Mike H wrote:

              I Love Amy and Democracy Now. I used to watch her on FSTV along with a ton of other programs that require a bit of thinking from the watcher.

              She's impressive, Amy Goodman. A real work horse with a keen sense of humor, which is a must. At first I thought she was an ideologue of sorts, an ideology with which I had a lot in common, but nevertheless some political agenda. That initial perception was changed very quickly; it's simply critical journalism on a quest for human decency. I'm most of all impressed by AG's professionalism and versatility and scope, and her fascinating guests. People with credibility and long track records, people in Congress, former CIA people and retired generals, top investigative reporters around the world, and her special flashback, often connected to various anniversaries, feature old timers from the Black Panther Party and the Weather Underground, - and during the break introducing Weather Underground people who were on the run from the FBI and so on, we get to listen to Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues" with the fitting phrase, "You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows....." . Yep, Democracy Now! is top of the line, and I'm a huge fan.

              One of AG's most recent interviews was a full hour with retired four-star general Wesley Clark, the guy who bombed Kosovo as NATO supreme commander. Here is one helluva spicy excerpt:

              http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/02/1440234

              GEN. WESLEY CLARK: (.............) About ten days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of the generals called me in. He said, “Sir, you’ve got to come in and talk to me a second.” I said, “Well, you’re too busy.” He said, “No, no.” He says, “We’ve made the decision we’re going to war with Iraq.” This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, “We’re going to war with Iraq? Why?” He said, “I don’t know.” He said, “I guess they don’t know what else to do.” So I said, “Well, did they find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?” He said, “No, no.” He says, “There’s nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq.” He said, “I guess it’s like we don’t know what to do about terrorists, but we’ve got a good military and we can take down governments.” And he said, “I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail.”

              So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” -- meaning the Secretary of Defense’s office -- “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.” And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, “You remember that?” He said, “Sir, I didn’t show you that memo! I didn’t show it to you!”

              AMY GOODMAN: I’m sorry. What did you say his name was?

              GEN. WESLEY CLARK: I’m not going to give you his name.

              AMY GOODMAN: So, go through the countries again.

              GEN. WESLEY CLARK: Well, starting with Iraq, then Syria and Lebanon, then Libya, then Somalia and Sudan, and back to Iran.

              Cheers,

              Tarjei
            • elfuncle
              ... That s fair enough, because people are also arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol (which is far worse btw) and there are prescription meds
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 3, 2007
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                Jennifer wrote:

                > The old cause and effect, sounds like. My "drug days"
                > are long gone; haven't puffed a pipe in many a year.
                > Yet merely being high is hardly cause for arrest,
                > although that's the reality. People *are* arrested
                > for it, while driving that way, for example.

                That's fair enough, because people are also arrested for driving
                under the influence of alcohol (which is far worse btw) and there
                are prescription meds that should not be taken if you're going to
                drive. So that's a public safety issue. Being high should be legal,
                but sobriety should be an absolute condition for driving on public
                highways; too many lives at stake.

                > But what about just being out in public that way, even
                > if no substance is found on your person? Is that
                > a crime? Can "highness" be proven? With drug testing,
                > yes.

                The problem with urinalyses, for instance, is that it shows if
                you've smoked marijuana during the past 30 days. There are several
                problems with this. You may not have smoked, because having been
                exposed to second-hand smoke may get you in trouble too. Another
                problem with this has been evidenced in Norwegian prisons where
                urinalyses are done regularly. So if an inmate wants to get high,
                but he also knows that marijuana will be in his blood for 30 days
                and show up on the next test, he'll opt for heroin instead, which is
                out of the body within 24 hours. So the epidemic of heroin addiction
                among prison inmates is directly attributable to this type of drug
                testing.

                > This is not really a related issue, but it sort of
                > is, in the way that it affects people. There is an
                > issue at large here in my community; I haven't been
                > paying much attention to it other than noticing
                > it's created a lot of controversy and strife. This
                > is the issue of illegal immigration and its effects
                > in neighborhoods. One one level, I say I don't care
                > because it doesn't directly affect me. If someone
                > is here illegally, managed to sneak into the country,
                > how does that affect *me* unless the person somehow
                > infringes upon my life. It's kind of a ripple effect,
                > though, like tossing a stone in water and watching
                > what happens. The illegal person must live, find
                > means of support somehow; and the choices s/he makes
                > can indeed affect me in some way, small or great.
                > What I'm getting at here is that with regard to
                > illegal immigrants *or* stoned people, I could say:
                > "Who cares," and continue minding my own business.
                > But if everyone thouht that way, then what?

                Let everyone think that way. There is no such thing as an illegal
                person. It's something invented by the government. I was an illegal
                in the US for over 10 years myself, actively promoting what I
                called "the virtues of anarchism and illegal alienism."

                Look, in Houston (where my 17 year old son lives these days) there
                is at least one huge facility, a maximum prison in fact, where
                illegal aliens have been incarcerated, and they're kept for years
                and years before they're deported. Children too, and they're locked
                up with serious criminals and have to sleep separate from their
                parents, can't play with the other kids, don't get any schooling,
                and many of these families are completely innocent even of so-called
                immigration violations. There was this Canadian family that returned
                from Iran, and because one passenger had a heart attack, they made
                an emergency landing in Puerto Rico, and for some strange freak
                reason the family ended up being arrested by US Homeland Security
                and are now locked up in Texas. The boy is 9 years old, and all he
                wants is to go home to Canada, but they're locked up indefinitely
                because "aliens" have no rights.

                26 years ago, in 1981, during my own illegal alien days, I wrote the
                following poem and delivered it personally to the INS office in
                Phoenix - I'm especially proud of my subtle reference to "wetbacks":

                Undocumented Aliens

                Undocumented aliens arrive from outer space.
                I saw one in the bushes with a funny-looking face.
                The papers say they're coming from some place in Mexico,
                but I have seen them jump out from a giant UFO!

                The Pentagon is worried about alien attacks.
                Some people tell me aliens have liquid on their backs!
                They went to Mars in search of them but could not find a trace.
                One immigration lawyer flew to Venus on a case.

                The INS is frantic, and they don't know what to do.
                They're handing out those green cards, but some aliens are blue!
                Red alert is on, and there's an awful lot of fuss -
                Rumors say that aliens look just like some of us!

                Undocumented aliens are roaming around wild.
                One could be your governor - another one your child!
                With eighteen federal files on every native motorist,
                they'd better find those aliens and add them to the list!

                Cheers,

                Tarjei
              • elfuncle
                Look, I ve posted this and the next from my email client,but it s not showing up, so it seems to me that Yahoo is busy copying whatever is of interest to the
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 3, 2007
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                  Look, I've posted this and the next from my email client,but it's
                  not showing up, so it seems to me that Yahoo is busy copying
                  whatever is of interest to the NSA and the DEA and the INS and
                  Homeland Security and Bush's enemy list and what have you,
                  especially with the hot spicy Pentagon memo leak from September 20,
                  2001, so I'll do it from the web and apologize if these posts appear
                  in duplicates.

                  Mike H wrote:

                  > I Love Amy and Democracy Now. I used to watch her on FSTV along
                  with
                  > a ton of other programs that require a bit of thinking from the
                  > watcher.

                  She's impressive, Amy Goodman. A real work horse with a keen sense
                  of humor, which is a must. At first I thought she was an ideologue
                  of sorts, an ideology with which I had a lot in common, but
                  nevertheless some political agenda. That initial perception was
                  changed very quickly; it's simply critical journalism on a quest for
                  human decency. I'm most of all impressed by AG's professionalism and
                  versatility and scope, and her fascinating guests. People with
                  credibility and long track records, people in Congress, former CIA
                  people and retired generals, top investigative reporters around the
                  world, and her special flashback, often connected to various
                  anniversaries, feature old timers from the Black Panther Party and
                  the Weather Underground, - and during the break introducing Weather
                  Underground people who were on the run from the FBI and so on, we
                  get to listen to Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues" with the
                  fitting phrase, "You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the
                  wind blows....." . Yep, Democracy Now! is top of the line, and I'm a
                  huge fan.

                  One of AG's most recent interviews was a full hour with retired four-
                  star general Wesley Clark, the guy who bombed Kosovo as NATO supreme
                  commander. Here is one helluva spicy excerpt:

                  http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/02/1440234

                  GEN. WESLEY CLARK: (.............) About ten days after 9/11, I went
                  through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy
                  Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of
                  the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of
                  the generals called me in. He said, "Sir, you've got to come in and
                  talk to me a second." I said, "Well, you're too busy." He said, "No,
                  no." He says, "We've made the decision we're going to war with
                  Iraq." This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, "We're
                  going to war with Iraq? Why?" He said, "I don't know." He said, "I
                  guess they don't know what else to do." So I said, "Well, did they
                  find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?" He said, "No,
                  no." He says, "There's nothing new that way. They just made the
                  decision to go to war with Iraq." He said, "I guess it's like we
                  don't know what to do about terrorists, but we've got a good
                  military and we can take down governments." And he said, "I guess if
                  the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a
                  nail."

                  So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we
                  were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, "Are we still going to war with
                  Iraq?" And he said, "Oh, it's worse than that." He reached over on
                  his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, "I just got
                  this down from upstairs" -- meaning the Secretary of Defense's
                  office -- "today." And he said, "This is a memo that describes how
                  we're going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with
                  Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing
                  off, Iran." I said, "Is it classified?" He said, "Yes, sir." I
                  said, "Well, don't show it to me." And I saw him a year or so ago,
                  and I said, "You remember that?" He said, "Sir, I didn't show you
                  that memo! I didn't show it to you!"

                  AMY GOODMAN: I'm sorry. What did you say his name was?

                  GEN. WESLEY CLARK: I'm not going to give you his name.

                  AMY GOODMAN: So, go through the countries again.

                  GEN. WESLEY CLARK: Well, starting with Iraq, then Syria and Lebanon,
                  then Libya, then Somalia and Sudan, and back to Iran.

                  Cheers,

                  Tarjei
                • kmlightseeker
                  Hi Mike, ... Interesting idea and one that should be given serious thought to. However, I wonder whose interests this will be serving. Sure, assuming this
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 4, 2007
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                    Hi Mike,


                    Mike H wrote:
                    >
                    > http://proposal.permanentpeace.org/index.html
                    >

                    Interesting idea and one that should be given serious thought to.

                    However, I wonder whose interests this will be serving. Sure, assuming
                    this works, there will be greater peace but will there be a greater
                    sense of wellbeing among *all* levels in the world's population?

                    Will there be both prosperity and sustenance for all? Will there be
                    equity and fairness for all in the peaceable society, or will this
                    continuous peace serve to create a more passive, compliant society?


                    Regards,

                    Keith
                  • write3chairs
                    ... Please forgive me for snipping all that came before this. I just wanted to say thank you for such an enlightening post. When saying illegal, one must
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 4, 2007
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                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" wrote:

                      > Undocumented Aliens
                      >
                      > Undocumented aliens arrive from outer space.
                      > I saw one in the bushes with a funny-looking face.
                      > The papers say they're coming from some place in Mexico,
                      > but I have seen them jump out from a giant UFO!
                      >
                      > The Pentagon is worried about alien attacks.
                      > Some people tell me aliens have liquid on their backs!
                      > They went to Mars in search of them but could not find a trace.
                      > One immigration lawyer flew to Venus on a case.
                      >
                      > The INS is frantic, and they don't know what to do.
                      > They're handing out those green cards, but some aliens are blue!
                      > Red alert is on, and there's an awful lot of fuss -
                      > Rumors say that aliens look just like some of us!
                      >
                      > Undocumented aliens are roaming around wild.
                      > One could be your governor - another one your child!
                      > With eighteen federal files on every native motorist,
                      > they'd better find those aliens and add them to the list!

                      Please forgive me for "snipping" all that came before this. I just
                      wanted to say thank you for such an enlightening post. When
                      saying "illegal," one must ask: According to *whose* laws? What is
                      happening with regard to immigration here now is that people of
                      Hispanic heritage are being targeted for discrimination, and that is
                      wrong. This is why all the controversy and hurt feelings
                      (justifiably) are happening. It's kind of like the Black person who
                      gets pulled over by the racist cop, simply for being Black. Same deal
                      with Hispanic people, who are under scrutiny because the "illegals"
                      here happen to be of that same heritage. Injustice is sometimes hard
                      to fight for, especially when a person is in the midst of it.

                      I think of Eli Wiesel, Holocaust survivor who said some very
                      significant things with regard to his situation. He mistrusts words
                      to convey accurately the horror of what he experienced in the death
                      camps. He asks, "How does one describe the indescribable? How does
                      one use restraint in recreating the fall of mankind and the eclipse
                      of the gods? And then, how can one be sure that the words, once
                      uttered, will not betray, distort the message they bear?"

                      Some things in life are that serious. He goes on: "So heavy was my
                      anguish that I made a vow not to speak, not to touch upon the
                      essential for at least ten years...."

                      Think of what he is saying here. This is a man who suffered
                      unspeakable injustice, evil so great that it silenced him.

                      Wiesel comes to this: "Maybe in a mystical way I thought I could
                      purify language before using it for the sacred purpose of
                      communicating the uncommunicable." He wanted to do it right, for
                      justice to be served, finally.

                      Thanks again, Tarjei.

                      Jennifer
                    • elfuncle
                      ... is ... Oh yes, hispanics have always been racially profiled, targeted, for suspicion of illegal alienism. And the irony is that most of them are Indians,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 4, 2007
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                        Jennifer wrote:

                        > Please forgive me for "snipping" all that came before this. I just
                        > wanted to say thank you for such an enlightening post. When
                        > saying "illegal," one must ask: According to *whose* laws? What is
                        > happening with regard to immigration here now is that people of
                        > Hispanic heritage are being targeted for discrimination, and that
                        is
                        > wrong. This is why all the controversy and hurt feelings
                        > (justifiably) are happening.

                        Oh yes, hispanics have always been racially profiled, targeted, for
                        suspicion of illegal alienism. And the irony is that most of them
                        are Indians, Spanish speaking Indians, whose ancestors were in North
                        America long before there were any white people there or any US-
                        Mexican border. As I said, I was an illegal alien for over ten years
                        by overstaying my six months' visa. But it wasn't a problem, not
                        even with my special type of name, because I was white, I was blue-
                        eyed, I spoke fluent American English and so on. The illegal alien
                        thing is basically racist; white Europeans, Canadians, and
                        Australians have no problems - well, not before the Patriot Act
                        anyway; now it's different, very different.

                        You know that poem, "Undocumented Aliens," which I wrote in Phoenix
                        in 1981, do you know what brought it on? I was a cab driver in
                        Phoenix in those days, and sometimes I had some interesting
                        assignments, I got the cab full of Mexicans who didn't speak a word
                        of English, but they managed to direct me, through Tempe and Mesa
                        and way, way out in the desert, where they paid their fare from the
                        meter, and then I saw they headed for some bushes where all their
                        buddies and maybe families were. In the bushes! They were illegal
                        Mexicans!

                        I remember bringing up the subject with my fellow cabbies on the
                        stands downtown Phoenix and at the Sky Harbor Airport, and they just
                        said "they're not supposed to be here." I almost said, "Well,
                        neither am I, I'm just as illegal as they are." But I didn't. I kept
                        shooting the breeze with the local police at coffee shops and bars,
                        nobody knew I was an illegal unless I told them. But those Mexicans
                        were petrified. At one time I didn't quite understand the directions
                        they were giving me, so I was about to ask a traffic cop for help,
                        innocent and naive as I was I guess, but they panicked at that,
                        which made me realize they were illegals, so I let it go.

                        Quite ironic that I, who had only been on the Western hemisphere for
                        a few years, and was indeed an illegal, could live openly like that
                        as a normal person, but those poor Mexicans who had been around for
                        millennia had to hide in the bushes!

                        So now you understand the phrase: "I saw one in the bushes with a
                        funny-looking face." That's them. And you also
                        understand: "Undocumented aliens are roaming around wild. One could
                        be your governor - another one your child!" And: "Rumors say that
                        aliens look just like some of us!" That's me.

                        Tarjei
                      • Mike helsher
                        ... assuming ... Hey Keith. Good questions. I would personally speculate that yes, there would be greater sense of well being for all, to a degree. Mainly
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 4, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "kmlightseeker"
                          <kmlightseeker@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Mike,
                          >
                          >
                          > Mike H wrote:
                          > >
                          > > http://proposal.permanentpeace.org/index.html
                          > >
                          >
                          > Interesting idea and one that should be given serious thought to.
                          >
                          > However, I wonder whose interests this will be serving. Sure,
                          assuming
                          > this works, there will be greater peace but will there be a greater
                          > sense of wellbeing among *all* levels in the world's population?
                          >
                          > Will there be both prosperity and sustenance for all? Will there be
                          > equity and fairness for all in the peaceable society, or will this
                          > continuous peace serve to create a more passive, compliant society?
                          >
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > Keith

                          Hey Keith.

                          Good questions. I would personally speculate that yes, there would be
                          greater sense of well being for all, to a degree. Mainly because
                          there would have to be a greater population of people that actually
                          THINK for themselves, and have command of their feelings, for ideas
                          like this to perpetuate.

                          Depends too on what definition of Peace that we use. I think that
                          most people would agree that individual Inner peace, creates outer
                          peace. But, in our age, true personal inner peace is attained
                          individually, which is a product of whole human education (like what
                          Waldorf tries to create). "Our highest endaevor must be to develope
                          humans who are able themselves to impart perpose and direction in
                          their lives".

                          Individual perpose and direction, in accord with the kind of morality
                          that RS points to in the POF, where if we're truly thinking
                          intutively, we cannot but meet at the same intention (roughly
                          paraphrased) would not make more passive or compliant people. To the
                          contrary: I think it would create more lively and assertive
                          individuals that think with the unending possibilities that are
                          possible when we truly think "with the power of Love in spiritual
                          form".

                          A tall order for sure. But I think that initiatives like the link
                          above are pointing in a better direction, if not a perfect one.

                          Mike
                          >
                        • write3chairs
                          ... Oh, yeah. Don t get me started on that. You do know, don t you, that the Father of Education in Texas was a leading oppressor of Native Americans (he
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 5, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tarjei wrote:

                            > Oh yes, hispanics have always been racially profiled,
                            > targeted, for suspicion of illegal alienism. And the
                            > irony is that most of them are Indians, Spanish speaking
                            > Indians, whose ancestors were in North America long before
                            > there were any white people there or any US-Mexican border.

                            Oh, yeah. Don't get me started on that. You do know,
                            don't you, that the "Father of Education" in Texas
                            was a leading oppressor of Native Americans (he chased
                            them out of the state), a protector of slavery, and
                            much more. His name was Mirabeau Buonaparte Lamar.

                            > As I said, I was an illegal alien for over ten years

                            Sorry, but this thought sends me into fits of laughter,
                            although I'm sure you had your moments of despair in
                            that situation. But Tarjei as an "alien" is amusing.
                            (Imagining your spacecraft.) Not to make light of your
                            circumstances at all, but just for the record, my
                            husband was an "illegal alien" in a sense, too, when
                            he first came to the U.S. He was a political refugee,
                            and went through all the legal hoops to become "legal,"
                            yet he wouldn't be allowed back into his home country.
                            So, again, legal according to *whom* becomes an issue.

                            > by overstaying my six months' visa. But it wasn't a
                            > problem, not even with my special type of name, because
                            > I was white, I was blue-eyed, I spoke fluent American
                            > English and so on. The illegal alien thing is basically
                            > racist; white Europeans, Canadians, and Australians
                            > have no problems - well, not before the Patriot Act
                            > anyway; now it's different, very different.

                            That's right, and one can never fully understand "white
                            privilege" from the perspective of the other unless one
                            has walked in the other's shoes.

                            > You know that poem, "Undocumented Aliens," which I
                            > wrote in Phoenix in 1981, do you know what brought it on?
                            > I was a cab driver in Phoenix in those days, and sometimes
                            > I had some interesting assignments, I got the cab full
                            > of Mexicans who didn't speak a word of English, but
                            > they managed to direct me, through Tempe and Mesa
                            > and way, way out in the desert, where they paid their
                            > fare from the meter, and then I saw they headed for
                            > some bushes where all their buddies and maybe families
                            > were. In the bushes! They were illegal Mexicans!

                            At the end of this posting, I'm going to copy and paste
                            an article I just found that details what is happening
                            here, the legal actions taken to fight illegal immigration.
                            My understanding is that this is making international
                            news, and conversations about it are ongoing. The
                            Dallas Peace Center has gotten involved, to try and
                            help smooth over some of the very bruised feelings.

                            > I remember bringing up the subject with my fellow
                            > cabbies on the stands downtown Phoenix and at the
                            > Sky Harbor Airport, and they just said "they're not
                            > supposed to be here." I almost said, "Well, neither
                            > am I, I'm just as illegal as they are." But I didn't.
                            > I kept shooting the breeze with the local police at
                            > coffee shops and bars, nobody knew I was an illegal
                            > unless I told them. But those Mexicans were petrified.
                            > At one time I didn't quite understand the directions
                            > they were giving me, so I was about to ask a traffic
                            > cop for help, innocent and naive as I was I guess,
                            > but they panicked at that, which made me realize they
                            > were illegals, so I let it go.
                            >
                            > Quite ironic that I, who had only been on the Western
                            > hemisphere for a few years, and was indeed an illegal,
                            > could live openly like that as a normal person, but
                            > those poor Mexicans who had been around for millennia
                            > had to hide in the bushes!
                            >
                            > So now you understand the phrase: "I saw one in the
                            > bushes with a funny-looking face." That's them. And
                            > you also understand: "Undocumented aliens are roaming
                            > around wild. One could be your governor - another one
                            > your child!" And: "Rumors say that aliens look just
                            > like some of us!" That's me.

                            Thanks for sharing your story, Tarjei!

                            Cheers,
                            Jennifer

                            ---
                            Farmers Branch OKs Illegal Immigration Measures

                            (AP) FARMERS BRANCH Council members in Farmers Branch unanimously
                            approved tough new anti-illegal immigration measures Monday evening,
                            including one that makes English the official language.

                            In a series of 6-0 votes, the council members also approved fines for
                            landlords and businesses that deal with illegal immigrants, and
                            allowed local authorities to screen suspects in police custody to see
                            if they are in the country illegally.

                            The votes were made in a room in City Hall packed with people who
                            clapped as the votes were tallied in favor of the measures. In a
                            parking lot outside, hundreds of protesters against the rules hoisted
                            American flags and sang the Pledge of Allegiance in English before
                            the votes were taken.

                            The vote came up in a public meeting Monday evening after an all-day
                            closed meeting with the city attorney where council members discussed
                            the legal ramifications of the proposals, intended to keep illegal
                            immigrants away from the city.

                            Opponents of the measures, meanwhile, collected signatures on a
                            petition urging the city not to become the first in Texas to pass
                            such strong anti-immigrant laws. They submitted more than 80
                            signatures to the mayor's office Monday.

                            Supporters say the ordinances are necessary because the federal
                            government has failed to address the issue.

                            But critics argued the proposals could lead to sanctioned
                            discrimination and racism.

                            "It's very much against the very fiber of this nation," said Mike
                            Ghouse, a homebuilder with a local group called Foundation for
                            Pluralism who has an office in Farmers Branch.

                            Attorneys with the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational
                            Fund, a civil rights advocacy group, told city council members during
                            the closed meeting that the proposals could violate federal law.

                            The group said it would evaluate any measures approved by the council
                            to determine their legality.

                            The rules could force untrained business owners and landlords to
                            evaluate a wide array of immigration documents to determine if the
                            person carrying them is legally in the country, MALDEF staff attorney
                            Marisol Perez said.

                            "You're putting them in the shoes of an immigration officer," she
                            said she told council members.

                            More than 50 municipalities nationwide have considered, passed or
                            rejected similar laws, but until now that trend hasn't been matched
                            in the Lone Star State.

                            Such sentiments and the proposed ordinances trouble many people in
                            Texas, where many Latino families can trace their roots here to the
                            era before statehood.

                            Since 1970, Farmers Branch has changed from a small, predominantly
                            white bedroom community with a declining population to a city of
                            almost 28,000 people, about 37 percent of them Hispanic, according to
                            the census. It also is home to more than 80 corporate headquarters
                            and more than 2,600 small and mid-size firms, many of them minority-
                            owned.

                            "They're afraid that Farmers Branch is becoming Hispanic," said
                            Christopher McGuire, a resident of the city and spokesman for a group
                            called United Farmers Branch. "It's going to happen, and that's not a
                            bad thing."

                            The local debate over illegal immigration began in August and spawned
                            demonstrations by both sides.

                            The proposals follow a vote this year in Hazleton, Pa., to fine
                            landlords who rent to illegal immigrants, deny business permits to
                            companies that employ them and require tenants to register and pay
                            for a rental permit.

                            However, a federal judge temporarily blocked enforcement of the
                            Hazleton ordinance while he considers a lawsuit against the town by
                            the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund, the American Civil
                            Liberties Union and other groups.


                            (© 2006 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may
                            not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.)

                            http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_317205232.html
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