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Re: for the WC people

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  • Tarjei Straume
    ... I m also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his last couple of posts. Tarjei
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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      Dottie wrote:

      >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such ignorance posing
      >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name attached to give it
      >more weight.

      I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his
      last couple of posts.

      Tarjei
    • Tarjei Straume
      ... Uncle Taz continueth: I ve done some thinking around the topic of anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by previous contributors against Jews
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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        I wrote:

        >I've been listening to half a dozen interviews
        >with Holocaust survivor and 1986 Nobel Peace
        >Prize laureate Eli Wiesel at the Open Mind
        >program with Richard Hefner, where he talks
        >about the anatomy of hate, the Holcaust,
        >anti-Semitism and related issues. You may also
        >have seen that program with Oprah Winfrey, where
        >she and Wiesel take a cold winter's day alk
        >around Auschwitz, the factory of death, where
        >Wiesel survived miraclulously, and to himself
        >incomprehensibly, at the tender age of 15. They
        >look at all the evidence, the gas hambers and
        >the gas cannisters, all the clothes and shoes
        >left behind by rich and poor, young and old, and
        >the tons and tons of hair cut off the victims
        >intended to be used for anufacturing something
        >useful. A factory of death with Eli Wiesel and
        >many others as closeup eyewitnesses.

        Uncle Taz continueth:

        I've done some thinking around the topic of
        anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by
        previous contributors against Jews collectively,
        such as "Christ-rejection", decadent and
        atavistic monotheism, fuelling the brutal
        shadow-side of Israel's politics through Zionists
        in Israel itself and the Jewish lobby in the US,
        being responsible for all wars and arms
        productions - these allegations against Jews in
        general go on and on and amount to something
        where Peter Staudenmaier has a valid point for a
        change, namely the phenomenon of anti-Semitism
        from the political left in the light of justified
        increasing criticism against Israel's politics.
        And it's precisely because this anti-Semitism
        comes from the left, that Mr. Lightsearcher jumps
        in and showers me with praise for opposing it. He
        wouldn't have been so fast on that trigger of his
        if it had been easier for me to make certain
        points on this issue that the time in question.
        This was very difficult, however, in the face of
        so much weird stuff that was being written about
        the Jews here by certain individuals.

        Before I get to those points, it should be made
        clear, however, that Israeli political
        propagandists have been abusing history, the
        Holocaust, and the charge of anti-Semitism for
        many decades in an endeavor to silence criticism
        against Israel. The claim that anti-Semitism is
        on the rise today, also in the West, is pure
        propaganda not based on fact. Norman G.
        Finkelstein has written some books on this issue:
        "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the
        Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" and "Beyond
        Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History."

        Finkelstein has frequently criticized the
        Anti-Defamation League as an organization
        dedicated not to defend against anti-Semitism,
        but to defamation of critics of Israel.
        Ultimately, he argues, the ADL trivializes real
        anti-Semitism by "crying wolf" with fraudulent
        allegations of Holocaust denial and "New anti-Semitism".

        In a letter to Georgetown University, the ADL
        referred to Finkelstein as a "known Holocaust
        denier". This is very ironic indeed when we take
        into account that not only is Finkelstein Jewish;
        his parents were Polish Auschwitz survivors. And
        by accusing Finkelstein of Holocaust denial, the ADL prove him right:

        Finkelstein has routinely dismissed this charge
        as spurious, pointing to his various descriptions
        of the Holocaust as an indisputable fact, and
        referring mockingly to "each of the many
        occasions that ADL has slandered this writer as a
        'well-known Holocaust denier.'" More recently,
        the Washington Post said of the ADL's allegation
        against Finkelstein that it "proved baseless."

        In an interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy
        Now, Finkelstein argued that in the eyes of the
        ADL "anyone who's a critic of Israel becomes an
        anti-Semite. And the truth of the matter is, the
        real anti-Semites, they don't really care about
        -- or the real Holocaust deniers, which is their
        other favorite epithet to hurl at people or
        expectorate at people who are critical of
        Israel." In that same interview, Finkelstein went
        on to say that genuine instances of Holocaust
        denial – such as Mahmoud Abbas's doctoral
        dissertation (which claimed that less than a
        million Jews were killed by the Nazis) or Silvio
        Berlusconi's claim that Mussolini was a "benign
        dictator" who "never killed anyone" (thousands of
        Italian Jews were sent to their deaths under
        Fascism) – are routinely downplayed by the ADL if
        the perpetrator is regarded an ally of the U.S. and Israel.

        In other words, Robert Mason is safe from
        criticism by the ADL, in spite of his *real*
        Holocaust revisionism, if he only proclaims support of Israel.

        The accusation of Holocaust denial and Holocaust
        revisionism against Finkelstein have been
        periodically echoed by other writers, including
        Phyllis Chesler, David Hornik, and Steven Plaut,
        all writing in Front Page Magazine, Martin
        Peretz, the Publisher of The New Republic, and
        Marc Fisher in the Washington Post. After several
        exchanges of letters and phone calls with
        Finkelstein, the Washington Post issued a
        retraction, in which Fisher wrote "Finkelstein
        has never denied the existence of the Holocaust,
        and I did not intend to suggest that."

        Finkelstein says that he relies on the work of
        Raul Hilberg for historical facts about the
        Holocaust, and cites as authoritative Hilberg's
        figures for the numbers of Holocaust Jewish
        victims killed (5.1 million). He has also written
        that "no rational person disputes that the Nazis
        systematically exterminated 5-6 million Jews" and
        "whether the actual figure was closer to 5 rather
        than 6 million might have historical significance
        [...] but zero moral significance". In The
        Holocaust Industry Finkelstein took issue with
        the numbers of Holocaust survivors as quoted by
        groups seeking Holocaust reparations. Finkelstein
        told an interviewer, "There's not a single word
        in the book that can be interpreted as Holocaust
        denial. Rather the contrary, I insist throughout
        the book that the conventional view of the Nazi
        holocaust - i.e, an assembly-line, industrialized
        killing of the Jews - is correct, and that the
        conventional figures on those killed are (more or less) correct."

        (Source: Wikipedia)

        And now I'll get to my point. It's very
        interesting to note - very interesting indeed! -
        that all the most radical, dangerous, fierce,
        analytical critics of Israel and of US foreign
        policy are Jews: Norman Finkelstein, Amy Goodman,
        Noam Chomsky (who was once an advisor to
        Mossad!), Seymor Hersh (who in addition to
        reporting The My Lai Massacre and exposing the
        sinister side of the current administration's
        policy with regard to Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon,
        has also written a myth-busting book about JFK,
        "The Dark Side of Camelot", which should interest
        Frank and others), professor Howard Zinn (the
        historian, social critic, and political scientist
        who wrote "A People's History of the United
        States"), innumerable ACLU lawyers, and the list
        goes on and on. The so-called radical left, which
        flirts with anarchist ideas, seeks to protect
        Latin America's turn to the left from US right
        wing intervention, defends Muslims against ethnic
        profiling and against meddling in Arab countries,
        stands up for Palestinians against Israeli
        brutality - this movement carries lots and lots and lots of Jews.

        What does this mean? It means a lot of things.
        For starters, what does it mean for Mr.
        Lightsearcher? It means when Mr. Lightsearcher
        defames and libels "liberals" and "leftists" with
        all kinds of moral character assassinations like
        cowardice, hypocrisy, criminality, fraud,
        untruthfulness and so on, he's defaming an awful
        lot of Jews. So although Mr. Lightsearcher is
        primarily interested in defaming Muslims and
        allegedly in defending Jews, he is hypocritical
        to a tee offering his support to my opposition to anti-Semitism.

        Secondly, what does this mean for Peter
        Staudenmaier? It means that he's facing a problem
        of contradictions, although he'll have little
        trouble acrobating himself around it through his
        well-knwn feat of juggling words and phrases with
        his usual sleight of hand. Peter S has pointed
        out that there's this phenomenon of anti-Semitism
        from the left, where criticism of Israel is
        conflated with criticism of all Jews collectively
        and of Judaism. In addition to this, whenever
        someone has pointed out to him that
        anthroposophists are close to Jews and that there
        are many Jewish anthroposophists, PS comes up
        with some phrases about philo-Semitic Anthros and
        anti-Semitic Semites. But what Peter S is doing
        when he starts rabbling about anti-Semitic
        Semites, is echoing certain false accusations,
        such as those of ADL against Norman Finkelstein.
        Even Noam Chomsky, whom Peter S seems to admire
        (they're both anarchists, more or less), would
        have to be a so-called anti-Semitic Semite
        according to such twisted definitions. And then
        Staudenmaier is left with his problem of old,
        once brilliantly pointed out by Bradford, namely
        how many anti-Semites he can squeeze into a VW bug.

        Thirdly, what does this mean for Robert Mason?
        He's busted, pure and simple. From the start. He
        has defended the views of even the most notorious
        Holocaust deniers with mean axes to grind against
        the Jews, people who are only featured in a
        positive light on neo-Nazi websites and similar
        far-right or bizarre anti-Jewish campaigns. And
        when I once asked him how he felt about Jews, he
        refused to answer, and this silence speaks
        volumes. He could have said something like, "It
        depends upon which Jews you're talking about," but he didn't. He's busted.

        Fourthly, what does all this mean for the legacy
        of Rudolf Steiner? For starters, Robert Mason
        exposing his true colors when challenged is a
        huge plus for this legacy, a smelly taint
        removed. The problem of Dan Dugan and Peter
        Staudenmaier, with quacking ducks like the
        thoroughly confused Diana Winters on their tail,
        is that when they're accusing Rudolf Steiner of
        anti-Semitism, they're guilty of the same
        intellectual dishonesty as the evangelical
        Religious Right, Mossad, and other one-sided
        defenders of Israel who say that any criticism of
        Israel or of anything associated with Jewish
        culture, is by definition anti-Semitic. So in
        order not to be an anti-Semite, one would have to
        utter nothing but praise of Israeli militarism or
        any other issue with Jewish connotations. Other
        than that, one would have to shut up.

        The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
        severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
        his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
        supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
        to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
        looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
        ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
        of this is patriotism, "My country right or
        wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
        or sober," which is ridiculous.)

        By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
        Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
        others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
        Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
        self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
        derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
        epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
        Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
        nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
        price. You'll be attacked from the right by
        orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

        And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:

        They have to stop all this nonsense about
        left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
        21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
        bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
        ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
        same token, they have to stop talking about "the
        West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
        West Office" or something. The White House
        doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.

        Cheers,

        Tarjei
      • dottie zold
        ... Me too. It just puts everything into perspective. Hey Taz, d ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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          > Dottie wrote:
          >
          > >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
          > ignorance posing
          > >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name
          > attached to give it
          > >more weight.
          >
          > I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his
          > true colors with his
          > last couple of posts.

          Me too. It just puts everything into perspective.

          Hey Taz,
          d



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        • Mike helsher
          ... wrote: ... Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper,
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume
            <straume@...> wrote:

            <snip>
            > The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
            > severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
            > his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
            > supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
            > to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
            > looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
            > ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
            > of this is patriotism, "My country right or
            > wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
            > or sober," which is ridiculous.)

            Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those
            who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper, can't seem to
            think out of what ever Box they are thinking in. Indeed the big
            picture that Steiner puts forth is Monumental in the direction of
            thinking past Dogma and propaganda and any sectarian orthodoxy. But I
            suppose if your looking for a gnat, on a cows ass, in the middle of a
            100 acre farm field in up state Vermont - you could find one.
            >
            > By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
            > Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
            > others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
            > Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
            > self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
            > derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
            > epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
            > Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
            > nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
            > price. You'll be attacked from the right by
            > orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

            Priceless! Brain chemistry inspired deualistic simplicity gives off
            the same kind of comforting braingasms as a boat load of chocolate
            does to a chocoholic. And where is the learning in all these
            calculated concepts stated with so much one-sided arrogance?

            Humm, I have a new theory...it's not so much the Gandalf denial, as
            it is....GRINCH DENIAL!...that seems to pleauge all these ACCUSERS,
            and wagging finger pointers. As Stewart Smally as it may sound, there
            are always three times as many fingers pointing right back at the
            finger pointer. I personally only trust those who are not prone to
            telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mr
            lightsearcher, and Mr. Mason pay lip-service to this.

            Seems also that being attacked by both left and right could be a sign
            that yur doing something truly Moral..IMO.

            >
            > And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:
            >
            > They have to stop all this nonsense about
            > left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
            > 21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
            > bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
            > ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
            > same token, they have to stop talking about "the
            > West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
            > West Office" or something. The White House
            > doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.


            Yeee Haaa! (words that scared Richard Prior).

            And they should be Honest and revert to the "Defence departments"
            original name....

            THE WAR DEPARTMENT!

            Mike
          • Mike helsher
            ... That should read: I personally only trust those who ARE prone to telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mike
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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              I wrote:
              >I personally only trust those who are not prone to
              > telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

              That should read:


              I personally only trust those who ARE prone to
              telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

              Mike
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