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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: for the WC people (Franky, Dottie, Tarjei)

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  • Lennart Sundström
    Dear Mr Mason, write me your biography, dark sides included, and I maybe will find a place in Sweden for you to recover, if you are sincere enough. Yours
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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      Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: for the WC people (Franky, Dottie, Tarjei) Dear Mr Mason,

      write me your biography, dark sides included, and I maybe will find a place in Sweden for you to recover, if you are sincere enough.

      Yours sincerely,
      Lennart Sundström,
      Göteborg
      Sweden

      P.S. A friend of mine arranges "pagan crucifixions". You will survive...



      06-12-01 20.42, skrev Robert Mason på robertsmason_99@... följande:

      To Mike H, who wrote:

      >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<

      Robert writes:

      You might want to go back and take note of
      words such as *maybe* and *if*.

    • dottie zold
      Mr. Mason, one does not have to be a historial expert to converse on the human tragedy that took place at the hands of the Nazis. To think one does seems to
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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        Mr. Mason, one does not have to be a historial expert
        to converse on the human tragedy that took place at
        the hands of the Nazis. To think one does seems to
        leave open the question that you and other holocaust
        deniers bring and that is that 'it's not all what you
        think it was'. It was! all that we think it was and
        much worse.

        I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
        ignorance posing as spiritual science with Rudolf
        Steiner's name attached to give it more weight.
        Shameful is what it is and very hurtful to the
        Society. You promote his work as well as say 'well if
        you have a need for historical truth...', as if, as if
        what you and Bondarev are pushing is the real truth
        that we just all have been hoodwinked by. What a
        charade.

        Dottie




        --- Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:

        > To Mike H, who wrote:
        >
        > >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<
        >
        > Robert writes:
        >
        > You might want to go back and take note of
        > words such as *maybe* and *if*.
        >
        > Mike wrote:
        >
        > >>So if you wanna chat some of your Holocaust
        > denial Jive . . . I might be willing to
        > accomadate [sic] your seeming need for
        > "earnestness and sencerity [sic]".<<
        >
        > Robert writes:
        >
        > I don't much want to "chat" about what you
        > call my "Holocaust denial Jive"; I groan
        > inwardly at the thought of getting my
        > cyber-fingers stuck in that tar baby again.
        > But if you have a "need" or desire to
        > search for historical truth in that area,
        > I might be willing to try to accommodate
        > you, within reason. But I am no special
        > expert; you might have as much success
        > just by doing some Googling on your own.
        >
        > . . . But I suspect that I am dealing with
        > another quirky sense of humor, and that
        > you are more interested in my "basementology"
        > than in history. Please be assured that I
        > look into my own basement regularly, and
        > that I have sometimes explored down there
        > with professional guidance and in "group
        > work". I don't intend to attempt such
        > "work" with this "group" of amateurs in
        > this very public cyberspace.
        >
        >
        > Robert Mason
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
        > Access over 1 million songs.
        > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
        >




        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      • Tarjei Straume
        ... I m also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his last couple of posts. Tarjei
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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          Dottie wrote:

          >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such ignorance posing
          >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name attached to give it
          >more weight.

          I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his
          last couple of posts.

          Tarjei
        • Tarjei Straume
          ... Uncle Taz continueth: I ve done some thinking around the topic of anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by previous contributors against Jews
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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            I wrote:

            >I've been listening to half a dozen interviews
            >with Holocaust survivor and 1986 Nobel Peace
            >Prize laureate Eli Wiesel at the Open Mind
            >program with Richard Hefner, where he talks
            >about the anatomy of hate, the Holcaust,
            >anti-Semitism and related issues. You may also
            >have seen that program with Oprah Winfrey, where
            >she and Wiesel take a cold winter's day alk
            >around Auschwitz, the factory of death, where
            >Wiesel survived miraclulously, and to himself
            >incomprehensibly, at the tender age of 15. They
            >look at all the evidence, the gas hambers and
            >the gas cannisters, all the clothes and shoes
            >left behind by rich and poor, young and old, and
            >the tons and tons of hair cut off the victims
            >intended to be used for anufacturing something
            >useful. A factory of death with Eli Wiesel and
            >many others as closeup eyewitnesses.

            Uncle Taz continueth:

            I've done some thinking around the topic of
            anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by
            previous contributors against Jews collectively,
            such as "Christ-rejection", decadent and
            atavistic monotheism, fuelling the brutal
            shadow-side of Israel's politics through Zionists
            in Israel itself and the Jewish lobby in the US,
            being responsible for all wars and arms
            productions - these allegations against Jews in
            general go on and on and amount to something
            where Peter Staudenmaier has a valid point for a
            change, namely the phenomenon of anti-Semitism
            from the political left in the light of justified
            increasing criticism against Israel's politics.
            And it's precisely because this anti-Semitism
            comes from the left, that Mr. Lightsearcher jumps
            in and showers me with praise for opposing it. He
            wouldn't have been so fast on that trigger of his
            if it had been easier for me to make certain
            points on this issue that the time in question.
            This was very difficult, however, in the face of
            so much weird stuff that was being written about
            the Jews here by certain individuals.

            Before I get to those points, it should be made
            clear, however, that Israeli political
            propagandists have been abusing history, the
            Holocaust, and the charge of anti-Semitism for
            many decades in an endeavor to silence criticism
            against Israel. The claim that anti-Semitism is
            on the rise today, also in the West, is pure
            propaganda not based on fact. Norman G.
            Finkelstein has written some books on this issue:
            "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the
            Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" and "Beyond
            Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History."

            Finkelstein has frequently criticized the
            Anti-Defamation League as an organization
            dedicated not to defend against anti-Semitism,
            but to defamation of critics of Israel.
            Ultimately, he argues, the ADL trivializes real
            anti-Semitism by "crying wolf" with fraudulent
            allegations of Holocaust denial and "New anti-Semitism".

            In a letter to Georgetown University, the ADL
            referred to Finkelstein as a "known Holocaust
            denier". This is very ironic indeed when we take
            into account that not only is Finkelstein Jewish;
            his parents were Polish Auschwitz survivors. And
            by accusing Finkelstein of Holocaust denial, the ADL prove him right:

            Finkelstein has routinely dismissed this charge
            as spurious, pointing to his various descriptions
            of the Holocaust as an indisputable fact, and
            referring mockingly to "each of the many
            occasions that ADL has slandered this writer as a
            'well-known Holocaust denier.'" More recently,
            the Washington Post said of the ADL's allegation
            against Finkelstein that it "proved baseless."

            In an interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy
            Now, Finkelstein argued that in the eyes of the
            ADL "anyone who's a critic of Israel becomes an
            anti-Semite. And the truth of the matter is, the
            real anti-Semites, they don't really care about
            -- or the real Holocaust deniers, which is their
            other favorite epithet to hurl at people or
            expectorate at people who are critical of
            Israel." In that same interview, Finkelstein went
            on to say that genuine instances of Holocaust
            denial – such as Mahmoud Abbas's doctoral
            dissertation (which claimed that less than a
            million Jews were killed by the Nazis) or Silvio
            Berlusconi's claim that Mussolini was a "benign
            dictator" who "never killed anyone" (thousands of
            Italian Jews were sent to their deaths under
            Fascism) – are routinely downplayed by the ADL if
            the perpetrator is regarded an ally of the U.S. and Israel.

            In other words, Robert Mason is safe from
            criticism by the ADL, in spite of his *real*
            Holocaust revisionism, if he only proclaims support of Israel.

            The accusation of Holocaust denial and Holocaust
            revisionism against Finkelstein have been
            periodically echoed by other writers, including
            Phyllis Chesler, David Hornik, and Steven Plaut,
            all writing in Front Page Magazine, Martin
            Peretz, the Publisher of The New Republic, and
            Marc Fisher in the Washington Post. After several
            exchanges of letters and phone calls with
            Finkelstein, the Washington Post issued a
            retraction, in which Fisher wrote "Finkelstein
            has never denied the existence of the Holocaust,
            and I did not intend to suggest that."

            Finkelstein says that he relies on the work of
            Raul Hilberg for historical facts about the
            Holocaust, and cites as authoritative Hilberg's
            figures for the numbers of Holocaust Jewish
            victims killed (5.1 million). He has also written
            that "no rational person disputes that the Nazis
            systematically exterminated 5-6 million Jews" and
            "whether the actual figure was closer to 5 rather
            than 6 million might have historical significance
            [...] but zero moral significance". In The
            Holocaust Industry Finkelstein took issue with
            the numbers of Holocaust survivors as quoted by
            groups seeking Holocaust reparations. Finkelstein
            told an interviewer, "There's not a single word
            in the book that can be interpreted as Holocaust
            denial. Rather the contrary, I insist throughout
            the book that the conventional view of the Nazi
            holocaust - i.e, an assembly-line, industrialized
            killing of the Jews - is correct, and that the
            conventional figures on those killed are (more or less) correct."

            (Source: Wikipedia)

            And now I'll get to my point. It's very
            interesting to note - very interesting indeed! -
            that all the most radical, dangerous, fierce,
            analytical critics of Israel and of US foreign
            policy are Jews: Norman Finkelstein, Amy Goodman,
            Noam Chomsky (who was once an advisor to
            Mossad!), Seymor Hersh (who in addition to
            reporting The My Lai Massacre and exposing the
            sinister side of the current administration's
            policy with regard to Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon,
            has also written a myth-busting book about JFK,
            "The Dark Side of Camelot", which should interest
            Frank and others), professor Howard Zinn (the
            historian, social critic, and political scientist
            who wrote "A People's History of the United
            States"), innumerable ACLU lawyers, and the list
            goes on and on. The so-called radical left, which
            flirts with anarchist ideas, seeks to protect
            Latin America's turn to the left from US right
            wing intervention, defends Muslims against ethnic
            profiling and against meddling in Arab countries,
            stands up for Palestinians against Israeli
            brutality - this movement carries lots and lots and lots of Jews.

            What does this mean? It means a lot of things.
            For starters, what does it mean for Mr.
            Lightsearcher? It means when Mr. Lightsearcher
            defames and libels "liberals" and "leftists" with
            all kinds of moral character assassinations like
            cowardice, hypocrisy, criminality, fraud,
            untruthfulness and so on, he's defaming an awful
            lot of Jews. So although Mr. Lightsearcher is
            primarily interested in defaming Muslims and
            allegedly in defending Jews, he is hypocritical
            to a tee offering his support to my opposition to anti-Semitism.

            Secondly, what does this mean for Peter
            Staudenmaier? It means that he's facing a problem
            of contradictions, although he'll have little
            trouble acrobating himself around it through his
            well-knwn feat of juggling words and phrases with
            his usual sleight of hand. Peter S has pointed
            out that there's this phenomenon of anti-Semitism
            from the left, where criticism of Israel is
            conflated with criticism of all Jews collectively
            and of Judaism. In addition to this, whenever
            someone has pointed out to him that
            anthroposophists are close to Jews and that there
            are many Jewish anthroposophists, PS comes up
            with some phrases about philo-Semitic Anthros and
            anti-Semitic Semites. But what Peter S is doing
            when he starts rabbling about anti-Semitic
            Semites, is echoing certain false accusations,
            such as those of ADL against Norman Finkelstein.
            Even Noam Chomsky, whom Peter S seems to admire
            (they're both anarchists, more or less), would
            have to be a so-called anti-Semitic Semite
            according to such twisted definitions. And then
            Staudenmaier is left with his problem of old,
            once brilliantly pointed out by Bradford, namely
            how many anti-Semites he can squeeze into a VW bug.

            Thirdly, what does this mean for Robert Mason?
            He's busted, pure and simple. From the start. He
            has defended the views of even the most notorious
            Holocaust deniers with mean axes to grind against
            the Jews, people who are only featured in a
            positive light on neo-Nazi websites and similar
            far-right or bizarre anti-Jewish campaigns. And
            when I once asked him how he felt about Jews, he
            refused to answer, and this silence speaks
            volumes. He could have said something like, "It
            depends upon which Jews you're talking about," but he didn't. He's busted.

            Fourthly, what does all this mean for the legacy
            of Rudolf Steiner? For starters, Robert Mason
            exposing his true colors when challenged is a
            huge plus for this legacy, a smelly taint
            removed. The problem of Dan Dugan and Peter
            Staudenmaier, with quacking ducks like the
            thoroughly confused Diana Winters on their tail,
            is that when they're accusing Rudolf Steiner of
            anti-Semitism, they're guilty of the same
            intellectual dishonesty as the evangelical
            Religious Right, Mossad, and other one-sided
            defenders of Israel who say that any criticism of
            Israel or of anything associated with Jewish
            culture, is by definition anti-Semitic. So in
            order not to be an anti-Semite, one would have to
            utter nothing but praise of Israeli militarism or
            any other issue with Jewish connotations. Other
            than that, one would have to shut up.

            The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
            severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
            his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
            supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
            to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
            looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
            ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
            of this is patriotism, "My country right or
            wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
            or sober," which is ridiculous.)

            By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
            Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
            others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
            Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
            self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
            derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
            epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
            Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
            nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
            price. You'll be attacked from the right by
            orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

            And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:

            They have to stop all this nonsense about
            left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
            21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
            bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
            ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
            same token, they have to stop talking about "the
            West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
            West Office" or something. The White House
            doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.

            Cheers,

            Tarjei
          • dottie zold
            ... Me too. It just puts everything into perspective. Hey Taz, d ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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              > Dottie wrote:
              >
              > >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
              > ignorance posing
              > >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name
              > attached to give it
              > >more weight.
              >
              > I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his
              > true colors with his
              > last couple of posts.

              Me too. It just puts everything into perspective.

              Hey Taz,
              d



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            • Mike helsher
              ... wrote: ... Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper,
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume
                <straume@...> wrote:

                <snip>
                > The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
                > severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
                > his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
                > supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
                > to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
                > looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
                > ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
                > of this is patriotism, "My country right or
                > wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
                > or sober," which is ridiculous.)

                Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those
                who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper, can't seem to
                think out of what ever Box they are thinking in. Indeed the big
                picture that Steiner puts forth is Monumental in the direction of
                thinking past Dogma and propaganda and any sectarian orthodoxy. But I
                suppose if your looking for a gnat, on a cows ass, in the middle of a
                100 acre farm field in up state Vermont - you could find one.
                >
                > By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
                > Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
                > others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
                > Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
                > self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
                > derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
                > epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
                > Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
                > nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
                > price. You'll be attacked from the right by
                > orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

                Priceless! Brain chemistry inspired deualistic simplicity gives off
                the same kind of comforting braingasms as a boat load of chocolate
                does to a chocoholic. And where is the learning in all these
                calculated concepts stated with so much one-sided arrogance?

                Humm, I have a new theory...it's not so much the Gandalf denial, as
                it is....GRINCH DENIAL!...that seems to pleauge all these ACCUSERS,
                and wagging finger pointers. As Stewart Smally as it may sound, there
                are always three times as many fingers pointing right back at the
                finger pointer. I personally only trust those who are not prone to
                telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mr
                lightsearcher, and Mr. Mason pay lip-service to this.

                Seems also that being attacked by both left and right could be a sign
                that yur doing something truly Moral..IMO.

                >
                > And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:
                >
                > They have to stop all this nonsense about
                > left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
                > 21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
                > bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
                > ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
                > same token, they have to stop talking about "the
                > West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
                > West Office" or something. The White House
                > doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.


                Yeee Haaa! (words that scared Richard Prior).

                And they should be Honest and revert to the "Defence departments"
                original name....

                THE WAR DEPARTMENT!

                Mike
              • Mike helsher
                ... That should read: I personally only trust those who ARE prone to telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mike
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                  I wrote:
                  >I personally only trust those who are not prone to
                  > telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

                  That should read:


                  I personally only trust those who ARE prone to
                  telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

                  Mike
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