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Re: for the WC people (Franky, Dottie, Tarjei)

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  • Robert Mason
    ... Robert writes: You might want to go back and take note of words such as *maybe* and *if*. ... denial Jive . . . I might be willing to accomadate [sic]
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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      To Mike H, who wrote:

      >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<

      Robert writes:

      You might want to go back and take note of
      words such as *maybe* and *if*.

      Mike wrote:

      >>So if you wanna chat some of your Holocaust
      denial Jive . . . I might be willing to
      accomadate [sic] your seeming need for
      "earnestness and sencerity [sic]".<<

      Robert writes:

      I don't much want to "chat" about what you
      call my "Holocaust denial Jive"; I groan
      inwardly at the thought of getting my
      cyber-fingers stuck in that tar baby again.
      But if you have a "need" or desire to
      search for historical truth in that area,
      I might be willing to try to accommodate
      you, within reason. But I am no special
      expert; you might have as much success
      just by doing some Googling on your own.

      . . . But I suspect that I am dealing with
      another quirky sense of humor, and that
      you are more interested in my "basementology"
      than in history. Please be assured that I
      look into my own basement regularly, and
      that I have sometimes explored down there
      with professional guidance and in "group
      work". I don't intend to attempt such
      "work" with this "group" of amateurs in
      this very public cyberspace.


      Robert Mason






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    • Tarjei Straume
      ... Well, Mr. Mason must have done some deep digging into my biography, because I did indeed smoke quite a bit of cannabis 40 years ago, when I was a teenager,
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Mike H wrote to Robert M:

        >Hummm... Tarjei's remark must have hit home, for you to make such a
        >personal attack, based on your assumptions about his lifestyle.

        Well, Mr. Mason must have done some deep digging into my biography,
        because I did indeed smoke quite a bit of cannabis 40 years ago, when
        I was a teenager, and I ended up being busted for it in 1969 and
        spent six months behind bars that year. So Mr. Mason's rationale
        appears to be, "Once stoned, always stoned," which indicates that
        he's speaking from personal experience.

        Since that time 40 years ago, my personal consumption of contraband
        has been limited to 2-3 puffs of mild marijuana per annum on the
        average, basically for political reasons (because it's illegal). So I
        call these annual rituals my socio-political duty. It's been a long,
        long time since I was stoned, however, and during the last 8-9 years,
        I haven't had any alcohol. It's not abstinence based upon principle
        or anything like that, it's just that I haven't enjoyed the taste or
        effect of alcohol for a long time (nor of cannabis or marijuana for
        that matter). A second reason for my non-use of intoxicants
        (excepting my 2-3 puffs per annum) is that I drive my car on a daily
        basis, and Norway happens to have some of the strictest laws in the
        world when it comes to DWI. There's zero tolerance here, and I have
        no intention of jeopardizing my driving privilege.

        I'm not kidding, however, when I say that Mr. Mason is projecting his
        own pathology. You have to be stoned on something very heavy and
        dangerous to flirt with holocaust denial like that and mix this with
        anthroposophy. This is a definite sign of a confused and decadent
        soul-life, indicating that what Mr. Mason has been smoking is no
        weed-reefer, but a glass crackpipe, in addition to shooting up and
        swallowing down a fifth of vodka in the morning and a pint of Scotch
        in the afternoon.

        I've been listening to half a dozen interviews with Holocaust
        survivor and 1986 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Eli Wiesel at the Open
        Mind program with Richard Hefner, where he talks about the anatomy of
        hate, the Holcaust, anti-Semitism and related issues. You may also
        have seen that program with Oprah Winfrey, where she and Wiesel take
        a cold winter's day walk around Auschwitz, the factory of death,
        where Wiesel survived miraclulously, and to himself incomprehensibly,
        at the tender age of 15. They look at all the evidence, the gas
        chambers and the gas cannisters, all the clothes and shoes left
        behind by rich and poor, young and old, and the tons and tons of hair
        cut off the victims intended to be used for manufacturing something
        useful. A factory of death with Eli Wiesel and many others as closeup
        eyewitnesses.

        After making the movie "Schindler's List," Steven Spielberg
        video-interviewed many Holocaust survivors who told their stories.
        Deniers of the Holocaust are calling all these people liars. This is
        not a simple matter of erroneous revision of history; it's something
        far worse, namely the claim that the Holocaust is not a historical
        fact but a lie created by Jews, based upon false evidence created by
        Jews and the lies of innumerable Jewish survivors. And that is indeed
        so disgusting that if anyone claiming to be an anthroposophist
        adheres to this type of sickness, he or she must be wacked on crack.
        I won't venture to guess what Peter Staudenmaier may of may not be
        smoking, but his historical revisionism is very similar to that of
        holocaust deniars, so it's understandable that Mr. Mason hangs out in
        the Hole where he can find people with similar mental and spiritual defects.

        Cheers,

        Tarjei
      • Lennart Sundström
        Dear Mr Mason, write me your biography, dark sides included, and I maybe will find a place in Sweden for you to recover, if you are sincere enough. Yours
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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          Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: for the WC people (Franky, Dottie, Tarjei) Dear Mr Mason,

          write me your biography, dark sides included, and I maybe will find a place in Sweden for you to recover, if you are sincere enough.

          Yours sincerely,
          Lennart Sundström,
          Göteborg
          Sweden

          P.S. A friend of mine arranges "pagan crucifixions". You will survive...



          06-12-01 20.42, skrev Robert Mason på robertsmason_99@... följande:

          To Mike H, who wrote:

          >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<

          Robert writes:

          You might want to go back and take note of
          words such as *maybe* and *if*.

        • dottie zold
          Mr. Mason, one does not have to be a historial expert to converse on the human tragedy that took place at the hands of the Nazis. To think one does seems to
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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            Mr. Mason, one does not have to be a historial expert
            to converse on the human tragedy that took place at
            the hands of the Nazis. To think one does seems to
            leave open the question that you and other holocaust
            deniers bring and that is that 'it's not all what you
            think it was'. It was! all that we think it was and
            much worse.

            I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
            ignorance posing as spiritual science with Rudolf
            Steiner's name attached to give it more weight.
            Shameful is what it is and very hurtful to the
            Society. You promote his work as well as say 'well if
            you have a need for historical truth...', as if, as if
            what you and Bondarev are pushing is the real truth
            that we just all have been hoodwinked by. What a
            charade.

            Dottie




            --- Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:

            > To Mike H, who wrote:
            >
            > >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<
            >
            > Robert writes:
            >
            > You might want to go back and take note of
            > words such as *maybe* and *if*.
            >
            > Mike wrote:
            >
            > >>So if you wanna chat some of your Holocaust
            > denial Jive . . . I might be willing to
            > accomadate [sic] your seeming need for
            > "earnestness and sencerity [sic]".<<
            >
            > Robert writes:
            >
            > I don't much want to "chat" about what you
            > call my "Holocaust denial Jive"; I groan
            > inwardly at the thought of getting my
            > cyber-fingers stuck in that tar baby again.
            > But if you have a "need" or desire to
            > search for historical truth in that area,
            > I might be willing to try to accommodate
            > you, within reason. But I am no special
            > expert; you might have as much success
            > just by doing some Googling on your own.
            >
            > . . . But I suspect that I am dealing with
            > another quirky sense of humor, and that
            > you are more interested in my "basementology"
            > than in history. Please be assured that I
            > look into my own basement regularly, and
            > that I have sometimes explored down there
            > with professional guidance and in "group
            > work". I don't intend to attempt such
            > "work" with this "group" of amateurs in
            > this very public cyberspace.
            >
            >
            > Robert Mason
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
            > Access over 1 million songs.
            > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
            >




            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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          • Tarjei Straume
            ... I m also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his last couple of posts. Tarjei
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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              Dottie wrote:

              >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such ignorance posing
              >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name attached to give it
              >more weight.

              I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his
              last couple of posts.

              Tarjei
            • Tarjei Straume
              ... Uncle Taz continueth: I ve done some thinking around the topic of anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by previous contributors against Jews
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                I wrote:

                >I've been listening to half a dozen interviews
                >with Holocaust survivor and 1986 Nobel Peace
                >Prize laureate Eli Wiesel at the Open Mind
                >program with Richard Hefner, where he talks
                >about the anatomy of hate, the Holcaust,
                >anti-Semitism and related issues. You may also
                >have seen that program with Oprah Winfrey, where
                >she and Wiesel take a cold winter's day alk
                >around Auschwitz, the factory of death, where
                >Wiesel survived miraclulously, and to himself
                >incomprehensibly, at the tender age of 15. They
                >look at all the evidence, the gas hambers and
                >the gas cannisters, all the clothes and shoes
                >left behind by rich and poor, young and old, and
                >the tons and tons of hair cut off the victims
                >intended to be used for anufacturing something
                >useful. A factory of death with Eli Wiesel and
                >many others as closeup eyewitnesses.

                Uncle Taz continueth:

                I've done some thinking around the topic of
                anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by
                previous contributors against Jews collectively,
                such as "Christ-rejection", decadent and
                atavistic monotheism, fuelling the brutal
                shadow-side of Israel's politics through Zionists
                in Israel itself and the Jewish lobby in the US,
                being responsible for all wars and arms
                productions - these allegations against Jews in
                general go on and on and amount to something
                where Peter Staudenmaier has a valid point for a
                change, namely the phenomenon of anti-Semitism
                from the political left in the light of justified
                increasing criticism against Israel's politics.
                And it's precisely because this anti-Semitism
                comes from the left, that Mr. Lightsearcher jumps
                in and showers me with praise for opposing it. He
                wouldn't have been so fast on that trigger of his
                if it had been easier for me to make certain
                points on this issue that the time in question.
                This was very difficult, however, in the face of
                so much weird stuff that was being written about
                the Jews here by certain individuals.

                Before I get to those points, it should be made
                clear, however, that Israeli political
                propagandists have been abusing history, the
                Holocaust, and the charge of anti-Semitism for
                many decades in an endeavor to silence criticism
                against Israel. The claim that anti-Semitism is
                on the rise today, also in the West, is pure
                propaganda not based on fact. Norman G.
                Finkelstein has written some books on this issue:
                "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the
                Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" and "Beyond
                Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History."

                Finkelstein has frequently criticized the
                Anti-Defamation League as an organization
                dedicated not to defend against anti-Semitism,
                but to defamation of critics of Israel.
                Ultimately, he argues, the ADL trivializes real
                anti-Semitism by "crying wolf" with fraudulent
                allegations of Holocaust denial and "New anti-Semitism".

                In a letter to Georgetown University, the ADL
                referred to Finkelstein as a "known Holocaust
                denier". This is very ironic indeed when we take
                into account that not only is Finkelstein Jewish;
                his parents were Polish Auschwitz survivors. And
                by accusing Finkelstein of Holocaust denial, the ADL prove him right:

                Finkelstein has routinely dismissed this charge
                as spurious, pointing to his various descriptions
                of the Holocaust as an indisputable fact, and
                referring mockingly to "each of the many
                occasions that ADL has slandered this writer as a
                'well-known Holocaust denier.'" More recently,
                the Washington Post said of the ADL's allegation
                against Finkelstein that it "proved baseless."

                In an interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy
                Now, Finkelstein argued that in the eyes of the
                ADL "anyone who's a critic of Israel becomes an
                anti-Semite. And the truth of the matter is, the
                real anti-Semites, they don't really care about
                -- or the real Holocaust deniers, which is their
                other favorite epithet to hurl at people or
                expectorate at people who are critical of
                Israel." In that same interview, Finkelstein went
                on to say that genuine instances of Holocaust
                denial – such as Mahmoud Abbas's doctoral
                dissertation (which claimed that less than a
                million Jews were killed by the Nazis) or Silvio
                Berlusconi's claim that Mussolini was a "benign
                dictator" who "never killed anyone" (thousands of
                Italian Jews were sent to their deaths under
                Fascism) – are routinely downplayed by the ADL if
                the perpetrator is regarded an ally of the U.S. and Israel.

                In other words, Robert Mason is safe from
                criticism by the ADL, in spite of his *real*
                Holocaust revisionism, if he only proclaims support of Israel.

                The accusation of Holocaust denial and Holocaust
                revisionism against Finkelstein have been
                periodically echoed by other writers, including
                Phyllis Chesler, David Hornik, and Steven Plaut,
                all writing in Front Page Magazine, Martin
                Peretz, the Publisher of The New Republic, and
                Marc Fisher in the Washington Post. After several
                exchanges of letters and phone calls with
                Finkelstein, the Washington Post issued a
                retraction, in which Fisher wrote "Finkelstein
                has never denied the existence of the Holocaust,
                and I did not intend to suggest that."

                Finkelstein says that he relies on the work of
                Raul Hilberg for historical facts about the
                Holocaust, and cites as authoritative Hilberg's
                figures for the numbers of Holocaust Jewish
                victims killed (5.1 million). He has also written
                that "no rational person disputes that the Nazis
                systematically exterminated 5-6 million Jews" and
                "whether the actual figure was closer to 5 rather
                than 6 million might have historical significance
                [...] but zero moral significance". In The
                Holocaust Industry Finkelstein took issue with
                the numbers of Holocaust survivors as quoted by
                groups seeking Holocaust reparations. Finkelstein
                told an interviewer, "There's not a single word
                in the book that can be interpreted as Holocaust
                denial. Rather the contrary, I insist throughout
                the book that the conventional view of the Nazi
                holocaust - i.e, an assembly-line, industrialized
                killing of the Jews - is correct, and that the
                conventional figures on those killed are (more or less) correct."

                (Source: Wikipedia)

                And now I'll get to my point. It's very
                interesting to note - very interesting indeed! -
                that all the most radical, dangerous, fierce,
                analytical critics of Israel and of US foreign
                policy are Jews: Norman Finkelstein, Amy Goodman,
                Noam Chomsky (who was once an advisor to
                Mossad!), Seymor Hersh (who in addition to
                reporting The My Lai Massacre and exposing the
                sinister side of the current administration's
                policy with regard to Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon,
                has also written a myth-busting book about JFK,
                "The Dark Side of Camelot", which should interest
                Frank and others), professor Howard Zinn (the
                historian, social critic, and political scientist
                who wrote "A People's History of the United
                States"), innumerable ACLU lawyers, and the list
                goes on and on. The so-called radical left, which
                flirts with anarchist ideas, seeks to protect
                Latin America's turn to the left from US right
                wing intervention, defends Muslims against ethnic
                profiling and against meddling in Arab countries,
                stands up for Palestinians against Israeli
                brutality - this movement carries lots and lots and lots of Jews.

                What does this mean? It means a lot of things.
                For starters, what does it mean for Mr.
                Lightsearcher? It means when Mr. Lightsearcher
                defames and libels "liberals" and "leftists" with
                all kinds of moral character assassinations like
                cowardice, hypocrisy, criminality, fraud,
                untruthfulness and so on, he's defaming an awful
                lot of Jews. So although Mr. Lightsearcher is
                primarily interested in defaming Muslims and
                allegedly in defending Jews, he is hypocritical
                to a tee offering his support to my opposition to anti-Semitism.

                Secondly, what does this mean for Peter
                Staudenmaier? It means that he's facing a problem
                of contradictions, although he'll have little
                trouble acrobating himself around it through his
                well-knwn feat of juggling words and phrases with
                his usual sleight of hand. Peter S has pointed
                out that there's this phenomenon of anti-Semitism
                from the left, where criticism of Israel is
                conflated with criticism of all Jews collectively
                and of Judaism. In addition to this, whenever
                someone has pointed out to him that
                anthroposophists are close to Jews and that there
                are many Jewish anthroposophists, PS comes up
                with some phrases about philo-Semitic Anthros and
                anti-Semitic Semites. But what Peter S is doing
                when he starts rabbling about anti-Semitic
                Semites, is echoing certain false accusations,
                such as those of ADL against Norman Finkelstein.
                Even Noam Chomsky, whom Peter S seems to admire
                (they're both anarchists, more or less), would
                have to be a so-called anti-Semitic Semite
                according to such twisted definitions. And then
                Staudenmaier is left with his problem of old,
                once brilliantly pointed out by Bradford, namely
                how many anti-Semites he can squeeze into a VW bug.

                Thirdly, what does this mean for Robert Mason?
                He's busted, pure and simple. From the start. He
                has defended the views of even the most notorious
                Holocaust deniers with mean axes to grind against
                the Jews, people who are only featured in a
                positive light on neo-Nazi websites and similar
                far-right or bizarre anti-Jewish campaigns. And
                when I once asked him how he felt about Jews, he
                refused to answer, and this silence speaks
                volumes. He could have said something like, "It
                depends upon which Jews you're talking about," but he didn't. He's busted.

                Fourthly, what does all this mean for the legacy
                of Rudolf Steiner? For starters, Robert Mason
                exposing his true colors when challenged is a
                huge plus for this legacy, a smelly taint
                removed. The problem of Dan Dugan and Peter
                Staudenmaier, with quacking ducks like the
                thoroughly confused Diana Winters on their tail,
                is that when they're accusing Rudolf Steiner of
                anti-Semitism, they're guilty of the same
                intellectual dishonesty as the evangelical
                Religious Right, Mossad, and other one-sided
                defenders of Israel who say that any criticism of
                Israel or of anything associated with Jewish
                culture, is by definition anti-Semitic. So in
                order not to be an anti-Semite, one would have to
                utter nothing but praise of Israeli militarism or
                any other issue with Jewish connotations. Other
                than that, one would have to shut up.

                The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
                severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
                his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
                supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
                to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
                looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
                ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
                of this is patriotism, "My country right or
                wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
                or sober," which is ridiculous.)

                By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
                Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
                others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
                Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
                self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
                derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
                epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
                Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
                nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
                price. You'll be attacked from the right by
                orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

                And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:

                They have to stop all this nonsense about
                left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
                21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
                bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
                ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
                same token, they have to stop talking about "the
                West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
                West Office" or something. The White House
                doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.

                Cheers,

                Tarjei
              • dottie zold
                ... Me too. It just puts everything into perspective. Hey Taz, d ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                  > Dottie wrote:
                  >
                  > >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
                  > ignorance posing
                  > >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name
                  > attached to give it
                  > >more weight.
                  >
                  > I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his
                  > true colors with his
                  > last couple of posts.

                  Me too. It just puts everything into perspective.

                  Hey Taz,
                  d



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                • Mike helsher
                  ... wrote: ... Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume
                    <straume@...> wrote:

                    <snip>
                    > The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
                    > severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
                    > his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
                    > supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
                    > to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
                    > looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
                    > ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
                    > of this is patriotism, "My country right or
                    > wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
                    > or sober," which is ridiculous.)

                    Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those
                    who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper, can't seem to
                    think out of what ever Box they are thinking in. Indeed the big
                    picture that Steiner puts forth is Monumental in the direction of
                    thinking past Dogma and propaganda and any sectarian orthodoxy. But I
                    suppose if your looking for a gnat, on a cows ass, in the middle of a
                    100 acre farm field in up state Vermont - you could find one.
                    >
                    > By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
                    > Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
                    > others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
                    > Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
                    > self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
                    > derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
                    > epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
                    > Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
                    > nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
                    > price. You'll be attacked from the right by
                    > orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

                    Priceless! Brain chemistry inspired deualistic simplicity gives off
                    the same kind of comforting braingasms as a boat load of chocolate
                    does to a chocoholic. And where is the learning in all these
                    calculated concepts stated with so much one-sided arrogance?

                    Humm, I have a new theory...it's not so much the Gandalf denial, as
                    it is....GRINCH DENIAL!...that seems to pleauge all these ACCUSERS,
                    and wagging finger pointers. As Stewart Smally as it may sound, there
                    are always three times as many fingers pointing right back at the
                    finger pointer. I personally only trust those who are not prone to
                    telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mr
                    lightsearcher, and Mr. Mason pay lip-service to this.

                    Seems also that being attacked by both left and right could be a sign
                    that yur doing something truly Moral..IMO.

                    >
                    > And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:
                    >
                    > They have to stop all this nonsense about
                    > left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
                    > 21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
                    > bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
                    > ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
                    > same token, they have to stop talking about "the
                    > West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
                    > West Office" or something. The White House
                    > doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.


                    Yeee Haaa! (words that scared Richard Prior).

                    And they should be Honest and revert to the "Defence departments"
                    original name....

                    THE WAR DEPARTMENT!

                    Mike
                  • Mike helsher
                    ... That should read: I personally only trust those who ARE prone to telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mike
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                      I wrote:
                      >I personally only trust those who are not prone to
                      > telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

                      That should read:


                      I personally only trust those who ARE prone to
                      telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

                      Mike
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