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Just a little ad homin' flamin' (was: for the WC people...)

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  • Tarjei Straume
    ... ... Well Robert, although Bob Dylan once sang Everybody must get stoned , you should have enough sense to stay off the hard stuff, especially
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006

      Robert writes:

      <snip>

      Now I'm thinking that maybe you do really smoke dope and that your rants about me are the expressions of your stoned, freaked-out sense of humor. Or maybe you smoke so much dope that you don't know when you are making stuff up or when you are joking or when you are serious?

      Well Robert, although Bob Dylan once sang "Everybody must get stoned", you should have enough sense to stay off the hard stuff, especially Crack'n'Smack and such. When you mix that with hard liquor, staying crazy as a loon, stoned in the morning, and drunk in the afternoon as Charlie Daniels put it, only the Basement knows what kind of projections you spew out. I highly recommend that you get into rehab fast. This smack'n'Crack you've been messing with for so long is really eating you up, and you should know better than anybody that it's very bad for your soul to be reading Mein Kampf under such influence. Uncool vibes, man.

      But, to me, that blatantly false excuse is an indication not of a lack of seriousness so much as a lack of sincerity. Still, maybe you are so permanently stoned that you had forgotten that you do read the WC?

      No surprise that the Hole is one of your nasty hangouts, probably because Diana reminds you of Goebbles in a kinky sort of way :)

      Some years ago I read Ron Dunselman's book *In Place of the Self*. So I Googled a little and found the article "Not I: The Physical and Non-Physical Effects of Drugs, and their Treatment"< http://www.charlest.uklinux.net/arta.html>

      I'm glad to see that you're contemplating action with regard to your decadence, starting with research.

      This brief overview of Dunselman's work includes this passage:

      "Hashish (marijuana) and opium affect the link between the life and feeling bodies [i.e. the etheric and astral bodies -- RM] B. They induce a dream consciousness as when asleep, though the drug user is awake. Hash is metabolised very slowly with traces still present in the brain after some 30 days. Very frequent users experience loss of memory and become confused, producing the so called 'hash-thought'."

      It's interesting to know what kind of hash-thought confusion the lyrics of Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson come from, but here's the passage for you, buddy:

      *****************************************************************************************
      Alcohol and heroin work on separating the I from the feeling and other bodies A. Heroin, for instance, produces a slowing down and lack of feeling or morality, with the person acting like a zombie. Withdrawal then produces the opposite effect and the person goes into a highly active state, being distressed at any amoral actions they took while under the influence of the drug. Alcohol also dispels one's cares, separating the Ego and making it harder to live in the other bodies. At this point, Ron described how alcohol aided the development of the I in earlier times, where it was drunk at specific times for specific purposes. The word 'symposia' comes from the Greek for 'to drink together'. The miracle of Christ turning water into wine is another indication of this connection between alcohol and Ego growth in ancient times, particularly with the relationship of the Christian impulse to the development of the I . However, our physical constitution is now different and alcohol will adversely affect our Ego forces making it more difficult to bring our higher selves into our daily life. If we look at the development of the child through the stages of firstly standing upright, followed by speech, and then by thinking, we can see how all of these are affected by alcohol!

      With regard to drugs that force the sheaths together, Ron mentioned cocaine and ecstasy. Cocaine and amphetamines force the feeling body into the life and physical bodies, but the I is not included. The lungs and heart are over-stimulated and an excessive dose can cause respiratory or cardiac arrest, both being severe disturbances of the life body, not to mention the physical body. Ecstasy is also like cocaine providing the ability to dance all night, but also has another effect like hashish. The feeling body expands and mixes with that of others, thus providing the feelings of 'togetherness'. The sense perceptions of the lights and music from the parties can persist for many months afterwards and Ron described how one of the residents would frequently need to stay in a darkened room to calm the sensory overload effects received due to ecstasy addiction.

      *****************************************************************************************
      This is what you get from all that hard booze and Smack'nCrack, which explains this post of yours.

      And so now I'm thinking that if you would get off drugs, detox the poisons from your organism, go through some therapy such as the "Arta" program, and get your astral body re connected to your ethereal body, then *maybe*, after time, we might be able to have a rational conversation. I might still have to contend with your prejudice, but at least I wouldn't have to contend with your drug-induced insanity.

      This is like a strung-out junkie and compulsive drunk telling his grandma to get off the habit of drinking a glass of champaigne every New Years Eve. Keep in mind that Adolf wouldn't have approved of your self-debilitating lifestyle, Robert. You would have been shipped for "rehab" to one of them nice "labor camps" along with the mentally challenged and non-Aryans.

      But right now, I don't see any basis for a worthwhile discussion between us.

      Nah, flaming is so much more appropriate - especially long as you need immediate medical intervention. Check in with Mike T at the AT clinic for a preliminary prescription.

      Cheers,

      Tarjei
      http://uncletaz.com/

      Think twice before flaming the gurus on the net.
      - http://www.albion.com/

    • dottie zold
      Oh Mike, please! did you just invite this man to discuss his holocaust denial loveing Bondareving butt here on line? Whew, d ...
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
        Oh Mike, please! did you just invite this man to
        discuss his holocaust denial loveing Bondareving butt
        here on line?

        Whew,
        d





        --- Mike helsher <mhelsher@...> wrote:

        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
        > Robert Mason
        > <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
        > >
        >
        > >
        > > Tarjei wrote:
        > >
        > > >>The problem with Robert Mason is that he's an
        > > apologist for holocaust denial and for a long
        > > list of anti-Semitic weirdos who say that
        > > Auschwitz was a benign and humane work camp. .
        > > . . [etc., etc.]<<
        > >
        > > Robert writes:
        > >
        > > Tarjei, the last time around I gave up trying
        > > to talk with you for much the same reason that
        > > I quit the WC list: I don't want to spend my
        > > time and energy in discussions that are plainly
        > > doomed to futility. But you just keep at it
        > > anyway. I had suggested that you read what I
        > > actually did write to the WC, but you refused,
        > > giving the obviously false excuse that "I have
        > > not read your WC posts because I don't read the
        > > WC." And you apparently still haven't read
        > > what I wrote but just continue to promulgate
        > > your hallucinations of things I supposedly
        > > said or meant.
        > >
        > > So I still have to wonder, "what could be
        > > happening in your mind?" I had attributed your
        > > attitude to prejudice, but now it seems to me
        > > that something more pernicious than mere
        > > prejudice is at work in you. Now I'm thinking
        > > that maybe you do really smoke dope and that
        > > your rants about me are the expressions of your
        > > stoned, freaked-out sense of humor. Or maybe
        > > you smoke so much dope that you don't know when
        > > you are making stuff up or when you are joking
        > > or when you are serious? But, to me, that
        > > blatantly false excuse is an indication not of
        > > a lack of seriousness so much as a lack of
        > > sincerity. Still, maybe you are so permanently
        > > stoned that you had forgotten that you do read
        > > the WC? (Doesn't seem likely to me.)
        > >
        > > Some years ago I read Ron Dunselman's book *In
        > > Place of the Self*. So I Googled a little and
        > > found the article "Not I: The Physical and Non-
        > > Physical Effects of Drugs, and their Treatment"
        > > <http://www.charlest.uklinux.net/arta.html>
        > > This brief overview of Dunselman's work
        > > includes this passage:
        > >
        > > "Hashish (marijuana) and opium affect the link
        > > between the life and feeling bodies [i.e. the
        > > etheric and astral bodies -- RM] B. They induce
        > > a dream consciousness as when asleep, though
        > > the drug user is awake. Hash is metabolised
        > > very slowly with traces still present in the
        > > brain after some 30 days. Very frequent users
        > > experience loss of memory and become confused,
        > > producing the so called 'hash-thought'."
        > >
        > > And so now I'm thinking that if you would get
        > > off drugs, detox the poisons from your
        > > organism, go through some therapy such as the
        > > "Arta" program, and get your astral body re-
        > > connected to your ethereal body, then *maybe*,
        > > after time, we might be able to have a rational
        > > conversation. I might still have to contend
        > > with your prejudice, but at least I wouldn't
        > > have to contend with your drug-induced
        > > insanity.
        > >
        > > -- The preceding is of course based on the hope
        > > that your problem is something as simple as
        > > Mary G. Whanna. But if that's not the problem;
        > > if you just naturally are the way you are --
        > > then the situation is probably a lot more
        > > complicated, and lot more "pernicious". Maybe
        > > the general, world-wide mass insanity
        > > surrounding the "Holocaust" and related issues
        > > has somehow hooked into your particular,
        > > freaked-out psycho-organism in an unusually
        > > virulent way . . . . I could only guess.
        > >
        > > But right now, I don't see any basis for a
        > > worthwhile discussion between us. And unless
        > > and until you give me some evidence of some
        > > real earnestness and sincerity on your part,
        > > frankly, I don't want to spend my time on you.
        > > This is sad, perhaps, but for me it's a matter
        > > of *triage* with my time and mental energy.
        > >
        > > I do wish for your health, in all aspects.
        > >
        > > Robert Mason
        >
        > Hummm... Tarjei's remark must have hit home, for you
        > to make such a
        > personal attack, based on your assumptions about his
        > lifestyle.
        >
        > I've found Tarjei's scope on this list to be broad,
        > intense,
        > articulate, and rediculously funny - whilst hanging
        > on to a certain
        > sense irony that is imaginative, inspiring,
        > and...ahhh...something
        > else...(I must have done to much dope too).
        >
        > I personally haven't used any "trendy chemical
        > amusement aids" in
        > coming up on 17 years, and have amassed a solid
        > understanding (I
        > think) as to the motives involved with cronic drug
        > abuse. I find your
        > lack of empathy disturbing, though your lip service
        > at the end of
        > your post has potential.
        >
        > I'm about as earnest, sincere, and earthy as they
        > come (pardon my
        > humility), but my cronic obcessive need for
        > humorously pointing out
        > stupidity sometimes gets in the way (Is there a
        > twelve step
        > fellowship for OCHD? (obcessive compulsive Humor
        > disorder)). So if
        > you wanna chat some of your Holocaust denial Jive
        > with an
        > inarticulate recovered dope fiend, that has fallen
        > hopelessly in Love
        > with the spirit of what RS was trying to put into
        > WORDS, I might be
        > willing to accomadate your seeming need for
        > "earnestness and
        > sencerity". And I promise that I will do my best and
        > try not to
        > write ANYTHING FUNNY.
        >
        > Mike
        >
        >
        >




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      • Mike helsher
        ... Actually Dottie, sweetie, love of my internet life....:) You know me! I m way more into an individuals personal motives for their beliefs. Logic smogic, if
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
          <dottie_z@...> wrote:
          >
          > Oh Mike, please! did you just invite this man to
          > discuss his holocaust denial loveing Bondareving butt
          > here on line?
          >
          > Whew,
          > d
          >

          Actually Dottie, sweetie, love of my internet life....:) You know me!
          I'm way more into an individuals personal motives for their beliefs.
          Logic smogic, if you are just ranting words and got a flaming
          intellect (like some people we know..:) I think Tarjei might have hit
          close to home with his reply...More MUST be revealed! And No better
          to reveal it than a basementology expert like myself, down here in
          the Basement department. But I get the feeling that Mr. Mason isnt
          into slumming it much - Much less washing his own feet, revermind
          anyone elses!

          Mike
        • Robert Mason
          ... Robert writes: You might want to go back and take note of words such as *maybe* and *if*. ... denial Jive . . . I might be willing to accomadate [sic]
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
            To Mike H, who wrote:

            >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<

            Robert writes:

            You might want to go back and take note of
            words such as *maybe* and *if*.

            Mike wrote:

            >>So if you wanna chat some of your Holocaust
            denial Jive . . . I might be willing to
            accomadate [sic] your seeming need for
            "earnestness and sencerity [sic]".<<

            Robert writes:

            I don't much want to "chat" about what you
            call my "Holocaust denial Jive"; I groan
            inwardly at the thought of getting my
            cyber-fingers stuck in that tar baby again.
            But if you have a "need" or desire to
            search for historical truth in that area,
            I might be willing to try to accommodate
            you, within reason. But I am no special
            expert; you might have as much success
            just by doing some Googling on your own.

            . . . But I suspect that I am dealing with
            another quirky sense of humor, and that
            you are more interested in my "basementology"
            than in history. Please be assured that I
            look into my own basement regularly, and
            that I have sometimes explored down there
            with professional guidance and in "group
            work". I don't intend to attempt such
            "work" with this "group" of amateurs in
            this very public cyberspace.


            Robert Mason






            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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          • Tarjei Straume
            ... Well, Mr. Mason must have done some deep digging into my biography, because I did indeed smoke quite a bit of cannabis 40 years ago, when I was a teenager,
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
              Mike H wrote to Robert M:

              >Hummm... Tarjei's remark must have hit home, for you to make such a
              >personal attack, based on your assumptions about his lifestyle.

              Well, Mr. Mason must have done some deep digging into my biography,
              because I did indeed smoke quite a bit of cannabis 40 years ago, when
              I was a teenager, and I ended up being busted for it in 1969 and
              spent six months behind bars that year. So Mr. Mason's rationale
              appears to be, "Once stoned, always stoned," which indicates that
              he's speaking from personal experience.

              Since that time 40 years ago, my personal consumption of contraband
              has been limited to 2-3 puffs of mild marijuana per annum on the
              average, basically for political reasons (because it's illegal). So I
              call these annual rituals my socio-political duty. It's been a long,
              long time since I was stoned, however, and during the last 8-9 years,
              I haven't had any alcohol. It's not abstinence based upon principle
              or anything like that, it's just that I haven't enjoyed the taste or
              effect of alcohol for a long time (nor of cannabis or marijuana for
              that matter). A second reason for my non-use of intoxicants
              (excepting my 2-3 puffs per annum) is that I drive my car on a daily
              basis, and Norway happens to have some of the strictest laws in the
              world when it comes to DWI. There's zero tolerance here, and I have
              no intention of jeopardizing my driving privilege.

              I'm not kidding, however, when I say that Mr. Mason is projecting his
              own pathology. You have to be stoned on something very heavy and
              dangerous to flirt with holocaust denial like that and mix this with
              anthroposophy. This is a definite sign of a confused and decadent
              soul-life, indicating that what Mr. Mason has been smoking is no
              weed-reefer, but a glass crackpipe, in addition to shooting up and
              swallowing down a fifth of vodka in the morning and a pint of Scotch
              in the afternoon.

              I've been listening to half a dozen interviews with Holocaust
              survivor and 1986 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Eli Wiesel at the Open
              Mind program with Richard Hefner, where he talks about the anatomy of
              hate, the Holcaust, anti-Semitism and related issues. You may also
              have seen that program with Oprah Winfrey, where she and Wiesel take
              a cold winter's day walk around Auschwitz, the factory of death,
              where Wiesel survived miraclulously, and to himself incomprehensibly,
              at the tender age of 15. They look at all the evidence, the gas
              chambers and the gas cannisters, all the clothes and shoes left
              behind by rich and poor, young and old, and the tons and tons of hair
              cut off the victims intended to be used for manufacturing something
              useful. A factory of death with Eli Wiesel and many others as closeup
              eyewitnesses.

              After making the movie "Schindler's List," Steven Spielberg
              video-interviewed many Holocaust survivors who told their stories.
              Deniers of the Holocaust are calling all these people liars. This is
              not a simple matter of erroneous revision of history; it's something
              far worse, namely the claim that the Holocaust is not a historical
              fact but a lie created by Jews, based upon false evidence created by
              Jews and the lies of innumerable Jewish survivors. And that is indeed
              so disgusting that if anyone claiming to be an anthroposophist
              adheres to this type of sickness, he or she must be wacked on crack.
              I won't venture to guess what Peter Staudenmaier may of may not be
              smoking, but his historical revisionism is very similar to that of
              holocaust deniars, so it's understandable that Mr. Mason hangs out in
              the Hole where he can find people with similar mental and spiritual defects.

              Cheers,

              Tarjei
            • Lennart Sundström
              Dear Mr Mason, write me your biography, dark sides included, and I maybe will find a place in Sweden for you to recover, if you are sincere enough. Yours
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
                Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: for the WC people (Franky, Dottie, Tarjei) Dear Mr Mason,

                write me your biography, dark sides included, and I maybe will find a place in Sweden for you to recover, if you are sincere enough.

                Yours sincerely,
                Lennart Sundström,
                Göteborg
                Sweden

                P.S. A friend of mine arranges "pagan crucifixions". You will survive...



                06-12-01 20.42, skrev Robert Mason på robertsmason_99@... följande:

                To Mike H, who wrote:

                >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<

                Robert writes:

                You might want to go back and take note of
                words such as *maybe* and *if*.

              • dottie zold
                Mr. Mason, one does not have to be a historial expert to converse on the human tragedy that took place at the hands of the Nazis. To think one does seems to
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
                  Mr. Mason, one does not have to be a historial expert
                  to converse on the human tragedy that took place at
                  the hands of the Nazis. To think one does seems to
                  leave open the question that you and other holocaust
                  deniers bring and that is that 'it's not all what you
                  think it was'. It was! all that we think it was and
                  much worse.

                  I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
                  ignorance posing as spiritual science with Rudolf
                  Steiner's name attached to give it more weight.
                  Shameful is what it is and very hurtful to the
                  Society. You promote his work as well as say 'well if
                  you have a need for historical truth...', as if, as if
                  what you and Bondarev are pushing is the real truth
                  that we just all have been hoodwinked by. What a
                  charade.

                  Dottie




                  --- Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:

                  > To Mike H, who wrote:
                  >
                  > >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<
                  >
                  > Robert writes:
                  >
                  > You might want to go back and take note of
                  > words such as *maybe* and *if*.
                  >
                  > Mike wrote:
                  >
                  > >>So if you wanna chat some of your Holocaust
                  > denial Jive . . . I might be willing to
                  > accomadate [sic] your seeming need for
                  > "earnestness and sencerity [sic]".<<
                  >
                  > Robert writes:
                  >
                  > I don't much want to "chat" about what you
                  > call my "Holocaust denial Jive"; I groan
                  > inwardly at the thought of getting my
                  > cyber-fingers stuck in that tar baby again.
                  > But if you have a "need" or desire to
                  > search for historical truth in that area,
                  > I might be willing to try to accommodate
                  > you, within reason. But I am no special
                  > expert; you might have as much success
                  > just by doing some Googling on your own.
                  >
                  > . . . But I suspect that I am dealing with
                  > another quirky sense of humor, and that
                  > you are more interested in my "basementology"
                  > than in history. Please be assured that I
                  > look into my own basement regularly, and
                  > that I have sometimes explored down there
                  > with professional guidance and in "group
                  > work". I don't intend to attempt such
                  > "work" with this "group" of amateurs in
                  > this very public cyberspace.
                  >
                  >
                  > Robert Mason
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                  > Access over 1 million songs.
                  > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
                  >




                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                • Tarjei Straume
                  ... I m also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his last couple of posts. Tarjei
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
                    Dottie wrote:

                    >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such ignorance posing
                    >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name attached to give it
                    >more weight.

                    I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his
                    last couple of posts.

                    Tarjei
                  • Tarjei Straume
                    ... Uncle Taz continueth: I ve done some thinking around the topic of anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by previous contributors against Jews
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
                      I wrote:

                      >I've been listening to half a dozen interviews
                      >with Holocaust survivor and 1986 Nobel Peace
                      >Prize laureate Eli Wiesel at the Open Mind
                      >program with Richard Hefner, where he talks
                      >about the anatomy of hate, the Holcaust,
                      >anti-Semitism and related issues. You may also
                      >have seen that program with Oprah Winfrey, where
                      >she and Wiesel take a cold winter's day alk
                      >around Auschwitz, the factory of death, where
                      >Wiesel survived miraclulously, and to himself
                      >incomprehensibly, at the tender age of 15. They
                      >look at all the evidence, the gas hambers and
                      >the gas cannisters, all the clothes and shoes
                      >left behind by rich and poor, young and old, and
                      >the tons and tons of hair cut off the victims
                      >intended to be used for anufacturing something
                      >useful. A factory of death with Eli Wiesel and
                      >many others as closeup eyewitnesses.

                      Uncle Taz continueth:

                      I've done some thinking around the topic of
                      anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by
                      previous contributors against Jews collectively,
                      such as "Christ-rejection", decadent and
                      atavistic monotheism, fuelling the brutal
                      shadow-side of Israel's politics through Zionists
                      in Israel itself and the Jewish lobby in the US,
                      being responsible for all wars and arms
                      productions - these allegations against Jews in
                      general go on and on and amount to something
                      where Peter Staudenmaier has a valid point for a
                      change, namely the phenomenon of anti-Semitism
                      from the political left in the light of justified
                      increasing criticism against Israel's politics.
                      And it's precisely because this anti-Semitism
                      comes from the left, that Mr. Lightsearcher jumps
                      in and showers me with praise for opposing it. He
                      wouldn't have been so fast on that trigger of his
                      if it had been easier for me to make certain
                      points on this issue that the time in question.
                      This was very difficult, however, in the face of
                      so much weird stuff that was being written about
                      the Jews here by certain individuals.

                      Before I get to those points, it should be made
                      clear, however, that Israeli political
                      propagandists have been abusing history, the
                      Holocaust, and the charge of anti-Semitism for
                      many decades in an endeavor to silence criticism
                      against Israel. The claim that anti-Semitism is
                      on the rise today, also in the West, is pure
                      propaganda not based on fact. Norman G.
                      Finkelstein has written some books on this issue:
                      "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the
                      Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" and "Beyond
                      Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History."

                      Finkelstein has frequently criticized the
                      Anti-Defamation League as an organization
                      dedicated not to defend against anti-Semitism,
                      but to defamation of critics of Israel.
                      Ultimately, he argues, the ADL trivializes real
                      anti-Semitism by "crying wolf" with fraudulent
                      allegations of Holocaust denial and "New anti-Semitism".

                      In a letter to Georgetown University, the ADL
                      referred to Finkelstein as a "known Holocaust
                      denier". This is very ironic indeed when we take
                      into account that not only is Finkelstein Jewish;
                      his parents were Polish Auschwitz survivors. And
                      by accusing Finkelstein of Holocaust denial, the ADL prove him right:

                      Finkelstein has routinely dismissed this charge
                      as spurious, pointing to his various descriptions
                      of the Holocaust as an indisputable fact, and
                      referring mockingly to "each of the many
                      occasions that ADL has slandered this writer as a
                      'well-known Holocaust denier.'" More recently,
                      the Washington Post said of the ADL's allegation
                      against Finkelstein that it "proved baseless."

                      In an interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy
                      Now, Finkelstein argued that in the eyes of the
                      ADL "anyone who's a critic of Israel becomes an
                      anti-Semite. And the truth of the matter is, the
                      real anti-Semites, they don't really care about
                      -- or the real Holocaust deniers, which is their
                      other favorite epithet to hurl at people or
                      expectorate at people who are critical of
                      Israel." In that same interview, Finkelstein went
                      on to say that genuine instances of Holocaust
                      denial – such as Mahmoud Abbas's doctoral
                      dissertation (which claimed that less than a
                      million Jews were killed by the Nazis) or Silvio
                      Berlusconi's claim that Mussolini was a "benign
                      dictator" who "never killed anyone" (thousands of
                      Italian Jews were sent to their deaths under
                      Fascism) – are routinely downplayed by the ADL if
                      the perpetrator is regarded an ally of the U.S. and Israel.

                      In other words, Robert Mason is safe from
                      criticism by the ADL, in spite of his *real*
                      Holocaust revisionism, if he only proclaims support of Israel.

                      The accusation of Holocaust denial and Holocaust
                      revisionism against Finkelstein have been
                      periodically echoed by other writers, including
                      Phyllis Chesler, David Hornik, and Steven Plaut,
                      all writing in Front Page Magazine, Martin
                      Peretz, the Publisher of The New Republic, and
                      Marc Fisher in the Washington Post. After several
                      exchanges of letters and phone calls with
                      Finkelstein, the Washington Post issued a
                      retraction, in which Fisher wrote "Finkelstein
                      has never denied the existence of the Holocaust,
                      and I did not intend to suggest that."

                      Finkelstein says that he relies on the work of
                      Raul Hilberg for historical facts about the
                      Holocaust, and cites as authoritative Hilberg's
                      figures for the numbers of Holocaust Jewish
                      victims killed (5.1 million). He has also written
                      that "no rational person disputes that the Nazis
                      systematically exterminated 5-6 million Jews" and
                      "whether the actual figure was closer to 5 rather
                      than 6 million might have historical significance
                      [...] but zero moral significance". In The
                      Holocaust Industry Finkelstein took issue with
                      the numbers of Holocaust survivors as quoted by
                      groups seeking Holocaust reparations. Finkelstein
                      told an interviewer, "There's not a single word
                      in the book that can be interpreted as Holocaust
                      denial. Rather the contrary, I insist throughout
                      the book that the conventional view of the Nazi
                      holocaust - i.e, an assembly-line, industrialized
                      killing of the Jews - is correct, and that the
                      conventional figures on those killed are (more or less) correct."

                      (Source: Wikipedia)

                      And now I'll get to my point. It's very
                      interesting to note - very interesting indeed! -
                      that all the most radical, dangerous, fierce,
                      analytical critics of Israel and of US foreign
                      policy are Jews: Norman Finkelstein, Amy Goodman,
                      Noam Chomsky (who was once an advisor to
                      Mossad!), Seymor Hersh (who in addition to
                      reporting The My Lai Massacre and exposing the
                      sinister side of the current administration's
                      policy with regard to Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon,
                      has also written a myth-busting book about JFK,
                      "The Dark Side of Camelot", which should interest
                      Frank and others), professor Howard Zinn (the
                      historian, social critic, and political scientist
                      who wrote "A People's History of the United
                      States"), innumerable ACLU lawyers, and the list
                      goes on and on. The so-called radical left, which
                      flirts with anarchist ideas, seeks to protect
                      Latin America's turn to the left from US right
                      wing intervention, defends Muslims against ethnic
                      profiling and against meddling in Arab countries,
                      stands up for Palestinians against Israeli
                      brutality - this movement carries lots and lots and lots of Jews.

                      What does this mean? It means a lot of things.
                      For starters, what does it mean for Mr.
                      Lightsearcher? It means when Mr. Lightsearcher
                      defames and libels "liberals" and "leftists" with
                      all kinds of moral character assassinations like
                      cowardice, hypocrisy, criminality, fraud,
                      untruthfulness and so on, he's defaming an awful
                      lot of Jews. So although Mr. Lightsearcher is
                      primarily interested in defaming Muslims and
                      allegedly in defending Jews, he is hypocritical
                      to a tee offering his support to my opposition to anti-Semitism.

                      Secondly, what does this mean for Peter
                      Staudenmaier? It means that he's facing a problem
                      of contradictions, although he'll have little
                      trouble acrobating himself around it through his
                      well-knwn feat of juggling words and phrases with
                      his usual sleight of hand. Peter S has pointed
                      out that there's this phenomenon of anti-Semitism
                      from the left, where criticism of Israel is
                      conflated with criticism of all Jews collectively
                      and of Judaism. In addition to this, whenever
                      someone has pointed out to him that
                      anthroposophists are close to Jews and that there
                      are many Jewish anthroposophists, PS comes up
                      with some phrases about philo-Semitic Anthros and
                      anti-Semitic Semites. But what Peter S is doing
                      when he starts rabbling about anti-Semitic
                      Semites, is echoing certain false accusations,
                      such as those of ADL against Norman Finkelstein.
                      Even Noam Chomsky, whom Peter S seems to admire
                      (they're both anarchists, more or less), would
                      have to be a so-called anti-Semitic Semite
                      according to such twisted definitions. And then
                      Staudenmaier is left with his problem of old,
                      once brilliantly pointed out by Bradford, namely
                      how many anti-Semites he can squeeze into a VW bug.

                      Thirdly, what does this mean for Robert Mason?
                      He's busted, pure and simple. From the start. He
                      has defended the views of even the most notorious
                      Holocaust deniers with mean axes to grind against
                      the Jews, people who are only featured in a
                      positive light on neo-Nazi websites and similar
                      far-right or bizarre anti-Jewish campaigns. And
                      when I once asked him how he felt about Jews, he
                      refused to answer, and this silence speaks
                      volumes. He could have said something like, "It
                      depends upon which Jews you're talking about," but he didn't. He's busted.

                      Fourthly, what does all this mean for the legacy
                      of Rudolf Steiner? For starters, Robert Mason
                      exposing his true colors when challenged is a
                      huge plus for this legacy, a smelly taint
                      removed. The problem of Dan Dugan and Peter
                      Staudenmaier, with quacking ducks like the
                      thoroughly confused Diana Winters on their tail,
                      is that when they're accusing Rudolf Steiner of
                      anti-Semitism, they're guilty of the same
                      intellectual dishonesty as the evangelical
                      Religious Right, Mossad, and other one-sided
                      defenders of Israel who say that any criticism of
                      Israel or of anything associated with Jewish
                      culture, is by definition anti-Semitic. So in
                      order not to be an anti-Semite, one would have to
                      utter nothing but praise of Israeli militarism or
                      any other issue with Jewish connotations. Other
                      than that, one would have to shut up.

                      The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
                      severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
                      his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
                      supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
                      to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
                      looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
                      ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
                      of this is patriotism, "My country right or
                      wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
                      or sober," which is ridiculous.)

                      By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
                      Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
                      others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
                      Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
                      self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
                      derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
                      epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
                      Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
                      nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
                      price. You'll be attacked from the right by
                      orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

                      And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:

                      They have to stop all this nonsense about
                      left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
                      21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
                      bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
                      ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
                      same token, they have to stop talking about "the
                      West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
                      West Office" or something. The White House
                      doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.

                      Cheers,

                      Tarjei
                    • dottie zold
                      ... Me too. It just puts everything into perspective. Hey Taz, d ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
                        > Dottie wrote:
                        >
                        > >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
                        > ignorance posing
                        > >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name
                        > attached to give it
                        > >more weight.
                        >
                        > I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his
                        > true colors with his
                        > last couple of posts.

                        Me too. It just puts everything into perspective.

                        Hey Taz,
                        d



                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                      • Mike helsher
                        ... wrote: ... Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper,
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume
                          <straume@...> wrote:

                          <snip>
                          > The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
                          > severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
                          > his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
                          > supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
                          > to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
                          > looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
                          > ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
                          > of this is patriotism, "My country right or
                          > wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
                          > or sober," which is ridiculous.)

                          Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those
                          who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper, can't seem to
                          think out of what ever Box they are thinking in. Indeed the big
                          picture that Steiner puts forth is Monumental in the direction of
                          thinking past Dogma and propaganda and any sectarian orthodoxy. But I
                          suppose if your looking for a gnat, on a cows ass, in the middle of a
                          100 acre farm field in up state Vermont - you could find one.
                          >
                          > By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
                          > Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
                          > others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
                          > Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
                          > self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
                          > derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
                          > epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
                          > Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
                          > nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
                          > price. You'll be attacked from the right by
                          > orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

                          Priceless! Brain chemistry inspired deualistic simplicity gives off
                          the same kind of comforting braingasms as a boat load of chocolate
                          does to a chocoholic. And where is the learning in all these
                          calculated concepts stated with so much one-sided arrogance?

                          Humm, I have a new theory...it's not so much the Gandalf denial, as
                          it is....GRINCH DENIAL!...that seems to pleauge all these ACCUSERS,
                          and wagging finger pointers. As Stewart Smally as it may sound, there
                          are always three times as many fingers pointing right back at the
                          finger pointer. I personally only trust those who are not prone to
                          telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mr
                          lightsearcher, and Mr. Mason pay lip-service to this.

                          Seems also that being attacked by both left and right could be a sign
                          that yur doing something truly Moral..IMO.

                          >
                          > And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:
                          >
                          > They have to stop all this nonsense about
                          > left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
                          > 21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
                          > bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
                          > ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
                          > same token, they have to stop talking about "the
                          > West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
                          > West Office" or something. The White House
                          > doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.


                          Yeee Haaa! (words that scared Richard Prior).

                          And they should be Honest and revert to the "Defence departments"
                          original name....

                          THE WAR DEPARTMENT!

                          Mike
                        • Mike helsher
                          ... That should read: I personally only trust those who ARE prone to telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mike
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
                            I wrote:
                            >I personally only trust those who are not prone to
                            > telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

                            That should read:


                            I personally only trust those who ARE prone to
                            telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

                            Mike
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