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Just a little ad homin' flamin' (was: for the WC people...)

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  • Tarjei Straume
    ... ... Well Robert, although Bob Dylan once sang Everybody must get stoned , you should have enough sense to stay off the hard stuff, especially
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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      Robert writes:

      <snip>

      Now I'm thinking that maybe you do really smoke dope and that your rants about me are the expressions of your stoned, freaked-out sense of humor. Or maybe you smoke so much dope that you don't know when you are making stuff up or when you are joking or when you are serious?

      Well Robert, although Bob Dylan once sang "Everybody must get stoned", you should have enough sense to stay off the hard stuff, especially Crack'n'Smack and such. When you mix that with hard liquor, staying crazy as a loon, stoned in the morning, and drunk in the afternoon as Charlie Daniels put it, only the Basement knows what kind of projections you spew out. I highly recommend that you get into rehab fast. This smack'n'Crack you've been messing with for so long is really eating you up, and you should know better than anybody that it's very bad for your soul to be reading Mein Kampf under such influence. Uncool vibes, man.

      But, to me, that blatantly false excuse is an indication not of a lack of seriousness so much as a lack of sincerity. Still, maybe you are so permanently stoned that you had forgotten that you do read the WC?

      No surprise that the Hole is one of your nasty hangouts, probably because Diana reminds you of Goebbles in a kinky sort of way :)

      Some years ago I read Ron Dunselman's book *In Place of the Self*. So I Googled a little and found the article "Not I: The Physical and Non-Physical Effects of Drugs, and their Treatment"< http://www.charlest.uklinux.net/arta.html>

      I'm glad to see that you're contemplating action with regard to your decadence, starting with research.

      This brief overview of Dunselman's work includes this passage:

      "Hashish (marijuana) and opium affect the link between the life and feeling bodies [i.e. the etheric and astral bodies -- RM] B. They induce a dream consciousness as when asleep, though the drug user is awake. Hash is metabolised very slowly with traces still present in the brain after some 30 days. Very frequent users experience loss of memory and become confused, producing the so called 'hash-thought'."

      It's interesting to know what kind of hash-thought confusion the lyrics of Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson come from, but here's the passage for you, buddy:

      *****************************************************************************************
      Alcohol and heroin work on separating the I from the feeling and other bodies A. Heroin, for instance, produces a slowing down and lack of feeling or morality, with the person acting like a zombie. Withdrawal then produces the opposite effect and the person goes into a highly active state, being distressed at any amoral actions they took while under the influence of the drug. Alcohol also dispels one's cares, separating the Ego and making it harder to live in the other bodies. At this point, Ron described how alcohol aided the development of the I in earlier times, where it was drunk at specific times for specific purposes. The word 'symposia' comes from the Greek for 'to drink together'. The miracle of Christ turning water into wine is another indication of this connection between alcohol and Ego growth in ancient times, particularly with the relationship of the Christian impulse to the development of the I . However, our physical constitution is now different and alcohol will adversely affect our Ego forces making it more difficult to bring our higher selves into our daily life. If we look at the development of the child through the stages of firstly standing upright, followed by speech, and then by thinking, we can see how all of these are affected by alcohol!

      With regard to drugs that force the sheaths together, Ron mentioned cocaine and ecstasy. Cocaine and amphetamines force the feeling body into the life and physical bodies, but the I is not included. The lungs and heart are over-stimulated and an excessive dose can cause respiratory or cardiac arrest, both being severe disturbances of the life body, not to mention the physical body. Ecstasy is also like cocaine providing the ability to dance all night, but also has another effect like hashish. The feeling body expands and mixes with that of others, thus providing the feelings of 'togetherness'. The sense perceptions of the lights and music from the parties can persist for many months afterwards and Ron described how one of the residents would frequently need to stay in a darkened room to calm the sensory overload effects received due to ecstasy addiction.

      *****************************************************************************************
      This is what you get from all that hard booze and Smack'nCrack, which explains this post of yours.

      And so now I'm thinking that if you would get off drugs, detox the poisons from your organism, go through some therapy such as the "Arta" program, and get your astral body re connected to your ethereal body, then *maybe*, after time, we might be able to have a rational conversation. I might still have to contend with your prejudice, but at least I wouldn't have to contend with your drug-induced insanity.

      This is like a strung-out junkie and compulsive drunk telling his grandma to get off the habit of drinking a glass of champaigne every New Years Eve. Keep in mind that Adolf wouldn't have approved of your self-debilitating lifestyle, Robert. You would have been shipped for "rehab" to one of them nice "labor camps" along with the mentally challenged and non-Aryans.

      But right now, I don't see any basis for a worthwhile discussion between us.

      Nah, flaming is so much more appropriate - especially long as you need immediate medical intervention. Check in with Mike T at the AT clinic for a preliminary prescription.

      Cheers,

      Tarjei
      http://uncletaz.com/

      Think twice before flaming the gurus on the net.
      - http://www.albion.com/

    • Mike helsher
      ... Hummm... Tarjei s remark must have hit home, for you to make such a personal attack, based on your assumptions about his lifestyle. I ve found Tarjei s
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
        <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
        >

        >
        > Tarjei wrote:
        >
        > >>The problem with Robert Mason is that he's an
        > apologist for holocaust denial and for a long
        > list of anti-Semitic weirdos who say that
        > Auschwitz was a benign and humane work camp. .
        > . . [etc., etc.]<<
        >
        > Robert writes:
        >
        > Tarjei, the last time around I gave up trying
        > to talk with you for much the same reason that
        > I quit the WC list: I don't want to spend my
        > time and energy in discussions that are plainly
        > doomed to futility. But you just keep at it
        > anyway. I had suggested that you read what I
        > actually did write to the WC, but you refused,
        > giving the obviously false excuse that "I have
        > not read your WC posts because I don't read the
        > WC." And you apparently still haven't read
        > what I wrote but just continue to promulgate
        > your hallucinations of things I supposedly
        > said or meant.
        >
        > So I still have to wonder, "what could be
        > happening in your mind?" I had attributed your
        > attitude to prejudice, but now it seems to me
        > that something more pernicious than mere
        > prejudice is at work in you. Now I'm thinking
        > that maybe you do really smoke dope and that
        > your rants about me are the expressions of your
        > stoned, freaked-out sense of humor. Or maybe
        > you smoke so much dope that you don't know when
        > you are making stuff up or when you are joking
        > or when you are serious? But, to me, that
        > blatantly false excuse is an indication not of
        > a lack of seriousness so much as a lack of
        > sincerity. Still, maybe you are so permanently
        > stoned that you had forgotten that you do read
        > the WC? (Doesn't seem likely to me.)
        >
        > Some years ago I read Ron Dunselman's book *In
        > Place of the Self*. So I Googled a little and
        > found the article "Not I: The Physical and Non-
        > Physical Effects of Drugs, and their Treatment"
        > <http://www.charlest.uklinux.net/arta.html>
        > This brief overview of Dunselman's work
        > includes this passage:
        >
        > "Hashish (marijuana) and opium affect the link
        > between the life and feeling bodies [i.e. the
        > etheric and astral bodies -- RM] B. They induce
        > a dream consciousness as when asleep, though
        > the drug user is awake. Hash is metabolised
        > very slowly with traces still present in the
        > brain after some 30 days. Very frequent users
        > experience loss of memory and become confused,
        > producing the so called 'hash-thought'."
        >
        > And so now I'm thinking that if you would get
        > off drugs, detox the poisons from your
        > organism, go through some therapy such as the
        > "Arta" program, and get your astral body re-
        > connected to your ethereal body, then *maybe*,
        > after time, we might be able to have a rational
        > conversation. I might still have to contend
        > with your prejudice, but at least I wouldn't
        > have to contend with your drug-induced
        > insanity.
        >
        > -- The preceding is of course based on the hope
        > that your problem is something as simple as
        > Mary G. Whanna. But if that's not the problem;
        > if you just naturally are the way you are --
        > then the situation is probably a lot more
        > complicated, and lot more "pernicious". Maybe
        > the general, world-wide mass insanity
        > surrounding the "Holocaust" and related issues
        > has somehow hooked into your particular,
        > freaked-out psycho-organism in an unusually
        > virulent way . . . . I could only guess.
        >
        > But right now, I don't see any basis for a
        > worthwhile discussion between us. And unless
        > and until you give me some evidence of some
        > real earnestness and sincerity on your part,
        > frankly, I don't want to spend my time on you.
        > This is sad, perhaps, but for me it's a matter
        > of *triage* with my time and mental energy.
        >
        > I do wish for your health, in all aspects.
        >
        > Robert Mason

        Hummm... Tarjei's remark must have hit home, for you to make such a
        personal attack, based on your assumptions about his lifestyle.

        I've found Tarjei's scope on this list to be broad, intense,
        articulate, and rediculously funny - whilst hanging on to a certain
        sense irony that is imaginative, inspiring, and...ahhh...something
        else...(I must have done to much dope too).

        I personally haven't used any "trendy chemical amusement aids" in
        coming up on 17 years, and have amassed a solid understanding (I
        think) as to the motives involved with cronic drug abuse. I find your
        lack of empathy disturbing, though your lip service at the end of
        your post has potential.

        I'm about as earnest, sincere, and earthy as they come (pardon my
        humility), but my cronic obcessive need for humorously pointing out
        stupidity sometimes gets in the way (Is there a twelve step
        fellowship for OCHD? (obcessive compulsive Humor disorder)). So if
        you wanna chat some of your Holocaust denial Jive with an
        inarticulate recovered dope fiend, that has fallen hopelessly in Love
        with the spirit of what RS was trying to put into WORDS, I might be
        willing to accomadate your seeming need for "earnestness and
        sencerity". And I promise that I will do my best and try not to
        write ANYTHING FUNNY.

        Mike
      • dottie zold
        Oh Mike, please! did you just invite this man to discuss his holocaust denial loveing Bondareving butt here on line? Whew, d ...
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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          Oh Mike, please! did you just invite this man to
          discuss his holocaust denial loveing Bondareving butt
          here on line?

          Whew,
          d





          --- Mike helsher <mhelsher@...> wrote:

          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
          > Robert Mason
          > <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
          > >
          >
          > >
          > > Tarjei wrote:
          > >
          > > >>The problem with Robert Mason is that he's an
          > > apologist for holocaust denial and for a long
          > > list of anti-Semitic weirdos who say that
          > > Auschwitz was a benign and humane work camp. .
          > > . . [etc., etc.]<<
          > >
          > > Robert writes:
          > >
          > > Tarjei, the last time around I gave up trying
          > > to talk with you for much the same reason that
          > > I quit the WC list: I don't want to spend my
          > > time and energy in discussions that are plainly
          > > doomed to futility. But you just keep at it
          > > anyway. I had suggested that you read what I
          > > actually did write to the WC, but you refused,
          > > giving the obviously false excuse that "I have
          > > not read your WC posts because I don't read the
          > > WC." And you apparently still haven't read
          > > what I wrote but just continue to promulgate
          > > your hallucinations of things I supposedly
          > > said or meant.
          > >
          > > So I still have to wonder, "what could be
          > > happening in your mind?" I had attributed your
          > > attitude to prejudice, but now it seems to me
          > > that something more pernicious than mere
          > > prejudice is at work in you. Now I'm thinking
          > > that maybe you do really smoke dope and that
          > > your rants about me are the expressions of your
          > > stoned, freaked-out sense of humor. Or maybe
          > > you smoke so much dope that you don't know when
          > > you are making stuff up or when you are joking
          > > or when you are serious? But, to me, that
          > > blatantly false excuse is an indication not of
          > > a lack of seriousness so much as a lack of
          > > sincerity. Still, maybe you are so permanently
          > > stoned that you had forgotten that you do read
          > > the WC? (Doesn't seem likely to me.)
          > >
          > > Some years ago I read Ron Dunselman's book *In
          > > Place of the Self*. So I Googled a little and
          > > found the article "Not I: The Physical and Non-
          > > Physical Effects of Drugs, and their Treatment"
          > > <http://www.charlest.uklinux.net/arta.html>
          > > This brief overview of Dunselman's work
          > > includes this passage:
          > >
          > > "Hashish (marijuana) and opium affect the link
          > > between the life and feeling bodies [i.e. the
          > > etheric and astral bodies -- RM] B. They induce
          > > a dream consciousness as when asleep, though
          > > the drug user is awake. Hash is metabolised
          > > very slowly with traces still present in the
          > > brain after some 30 days. Very frequent users
          > > experience loss of memory and become confused,
          > > producing the so called 'hash-thought'."
          > >
          > > And so now I'm thinking that if you would get
          > > off drugs, detox the poisons from your
          > > organism, go through some therapy such as the
          > > "Arta" program, and get your astral body re-
          > > connected to your ethereal body, then *maybe*,
          > > after time, we might be able to have a rational
          > > conversation. I might still have to contend
          > > with your prejudice, but at least I wouldn't
          > > have to contend with your drug-induced
          > > insanity.
          > >
          > > -- The preceding is of course based on the hope
          > > that your problem is something as simple as
          > > Mary G. Whanna. But if that's not the problem;
          > > if you just naturally are the way you are --
          > > then the situation is probably a lot more
          > > complicated, and lot more "pernicious". Maybe
          > > the general, world-wide mass insanity
          > > surrounding the "Holocaust" and related issues
          > > has somehow hooked into your particular,
          > > freaked-out psycho-organism in an unusually
          > > virulent way . . . . I could only guess.
          > >
          > > But right now, I don't see any basis for a
          > > worthwhile discussion between us. And unless
          > > and until you give me some evidence of some
          > > real earnestness and sincerity on your part,
          > > frankly, I don't want to spend my time on you.
          > > This is sad, perhaps, but for me it's a matter
          > > of *triage* with my time and mental energy.
          > >
          > > I do wish for your health, in all aspects.
          > >
          > > Robert Mason
          >
          > Hummm... Tarjei's remark must have hit home, for you
          > to make such a
          > personal attack, based on your assumptions about his
          > lifestyle.
          >
          > I've found Tarjei's scope on this list to be broad,
          > intense,
          > articulate, and rediculously funny - whilst hanging
          > on to a certain
          > sense irony that is imaginative, inspiring,
          > and...ahhh...something
          > else...(I must have done to much dope too).
          >
          > I personally haven't used any "trendy chemical
          > amusement aids" in
          > coming up on 17 years, and have amassed a solid
          > understanding (I
          > think) as to the motives involved with cronic drug
          > abuse. I find your
          > lack of empathy disturbing, though your lip service
          > at the end of
          > your post has potential.
          >
          > I'm about as earnest, sincere, and earthy as they
          > come (pardon my
          > humility), but my cronic obcessive need for
          > humorously pointing out
          > stupidity sometimes gets in the way (Is there a
          > twelve step
          > fellowship for OCHD? (obcessive compulsive Humor
          > disorder)). So if
          > you wanna chat some of your Holocaust denial Jive
          > with an
          > inarticulate recovered dope fiend, that has fallen
          > hopelessly in Love
          > with the spirit of what RS was trying to put into
          > WORDS, I might be
          > willing to accomadate your seeming need for
          > "earnestness and
          > sencerity". And I promise that I will do my best and
          > try not to
          > write ANYTHING FUNNY.
          >
          > Mike
          >
          >
          >




          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        • Mike helsher
          ... Actually Dottie, sweetie, love of my internet life....:) You know me! I m way more into an individuals personal motives for their beliefs. Logic smogic, if
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
            <dottie_z@...> wrote:
            >
            > Oh Mike, please! did you just invite this man to
            > discuss his holocaust denial loveing Bondareving butt
            > here on line?
            >
            > Whew,
            > d
            >

            Actually Dottie, sweetie, love of my internet life....:) You know me!
            I'm way more into an individuals personal motives for their beliefs.
            Logic smogic, if you are just ranting words and got a flaming
            intellect (like some people we know..:) I think Tarjei might have hit
            close to home with his reply...More MUST be revealed! And No better
            to reveal it than a basementology expert like myself, down here in
            the Basement department. But I get the feeling that Mr. Mason isnt
            into slumming it much - Much less washing his own feet, revermind
            anyone elses!

            Mike
          • Robert Mason
            ... Robert writes: You might want to go back and take note of words such as *maybe* and *if*. ... denial Jive . . . I might be willing to accomadate [sic]
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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              To Mike H, who wrote:

              >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<

              Robert writes:

              You might want to go back and take note of
              words such as *maybe* and *if*.

              Mike wrote:

              >>So if you wanna chat some of your Holocaust
              denial Jive . . . I might be willing to
              accomadate [sic] your seeming need for
              "earnestness and sencerity [sic]".<<

              Robert writes:

              I don't much want to "chat" about what you
              call my "Holocaust denial Jive"; I groan
              inwardly at the thought of getting my
              cyber-fingers stuck in that tar baby again.
              But if you have a "need" or desire to
              search for historical truth in that area,
              I might be willing to try to accommodate
              you, within reason. But I am no special
              expert; you might have as much success
              just by doing some Googling on your own.

              . . . But I suspect that I am dealing with
              another quirky sense of humor, and that
              you are more interested in my "basementology"
              than in history. Please be assured that I
              look into my own basement regularly, and
              that I have sometimes explored down there
              with professional guidance and in "group
              work". I don't intend to attempt such
              "work" with this "group" of amateurs in
              this very public cyberspace.


              Robert Mason






              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Yahoo! Music Unlimited
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            • Tarjei Straume
              ... Well, Mr. Mason must have done some deep digging into my biography, because I did indeed smoke quite a bit of cannabis 40 years ago, when I was a teenager,
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                Mike H wrote to Robert M:

                >Hummm... Tarjei's remark must have hit home, for you to make such a
                >personal attack, based on your assumptions about his lifestyle.

                Well, Mr. Mason must have done some deep digging into my biography,
                because I did indeed smoke quite a bit of cannabis 40 years ago, when
                I was a teenager, and I ended up being busted for it in 1969 and
                spent six months behind bars that year. So Mr. Mason's rationale
                appears to be, "Once stoned, always stoned," which indicates that
                he's speaking from personal experience.

                Since that time 40 years ago, my personal consumption of contraband
                has been limited to 2-3 puffs of mild marijuana per annum on the
                average, basically for political reasons (because it's illegal). So I
                call these annual rituals my socio-political duty. It's been a long,
                long time since I was stoned, however, and during the last 8-9 years,
                I haven't had any alcohol. It's not abstinence based upon principle
                or anything like that, it's just that I haven't enjoyed the taste or
                effect of alcohol for a long time (nor of cannabis or marijuana for
                that matter). A second reason for my non-use of intoxicants
                (excepting my 2-3 puffs per annum) is that I drive my car on a daily
                basis, and Norway happens to have some of the strictest laws in the
                world when it comes to DWI. There's zero tolerance here, and I have
                no intention of jeopardizing my driving privilege.

                I'm not kidding, however, when I say that Mr. Mason is projecting his
                own pathology. You have to be stoned on something very heavy and
                dangerous to flirt with holocaust denial like that and mix this with
                anthroposophy. This is a definite sign of a confused and decadent
                soul-life, indicating that what Mr. Mason has been smoking is no
                weed-reefer, but a glass crackpipe, in addition to shooting up and
                swallowing down a fifth of vodka in the morning and a pint of Scotch
                in the afternoon.

                I've been listening to half a dozen interviews with Holocaust
                survivor and 1986 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Eli Wiesel at the Open
                Mind program with Richard Hefner, where he talks about the anatomy of
                hate, the Holcaust, anti-Semitism and related issues. You may also
                have seen that program with Oprah Winfrey, where she and Wiesel take
                a cold winter's day walk around Auschwitz, the factory of death,
                where Wiesel survived miraclulously, and to himself incomprehensibly,
                at the tender age of 15. They look at all the evidence, the gas
                chambers and the gas cannisters, all the clothes and shoes left
                behind by rich and poor, young and old, and the tons and tons of hair
                cut off the victims intended to be used for manufacturing something
                useful. A factory of death with Eli Wiesel and many others as closeup
                eyewitnesses.

                After making the movie "Schindler's List," Steven Spielberg
                video-interviewed many Holocaust survivors who told their stories.
                Deniers of the Holocaust are calling all these people liars. This is
                not a simple matter of erroneous revision of history; it's something
                far worse, namely the claim that the Holocaust is not a historical
                fact but a lie created by Jews, based upon false evidence created by
                Jews and the lies of innumerable Jewish survivors. And that is indeed
                so disgusting that if anyone claiming to be an anthroposophist
                adheres to this type of sickness, he or she must be wacked on crack.
                I won't venture to guess what Peter Staudenmaier may of may not be
                smoking, but his historical revisionism is very similar to that of
                holocaust deniars, so it's understandable that Mr. Mason hangs out in
                the Hole where he can find people with similar mental and spiritual defects.

                Cheers,

                Tarjei
              • Lennart Sundström
                Dear Mr Mason, write me your biography, dark sides included, and I maybe will find a place in Sweden for you to recover, if you are sincere enough. Yours
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                  Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: for the WC people (Franky, Dottie, Tarjei) Dear Mr Mason,

                  write me your biography, dark sides included, and I maybe will find a place in Sweden for you to recover, if you are sincere enough.

                  Yours sincerely,
                  Lennart Sundström,
                  Göteborg
                  Sweden

                  P.S. A friend of mine arranges "pagan crucifixions". You will survive...



                  06-12-01 20.42, skrev Robert Mason på robertsmason_99@... följande:

                  To Mike H, who wrote:

                  >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<

                  Robert writes:

                  You might want to go back and take note of
                  words such as *maybe* and *if*.

                • dottie zold
                  Mr. Mason, one does not have to be a historial expert to converse on the human tragedy that took place at the hands of the Nazis. To think one does seems to
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                    Mr. Mason, one does not have to be a historial expert
                    to converse on the human tragedy that took place at
                    the hands of the Nazis. To think one does seems to
                    leave open the question that you and other holocaust
                    deniers bring and that is that 'it's not all what you
                    think it was'. It was! all that we think it was and
                    much worse.

                    I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
                    ignorance posing as spiritual science with Rudolf
                    Steiner's name attached to give it more weight.
                    Shameful is what it is and very hurtful to the
                    Society. You promote his work as well as say 'well if
                    you have a need for historical truth...', as if, as if
                    what you and Bondarev are pushing is the real truth
                    that we just all have been hoodwinked by. What a
                    charade.

                    Dottie




                    --- Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:

                    > To Mike H, who wrote:
                    >
                    > >>. . . . based on your assumptions . . . .<<
                    >
                    > Robert writes:
                    >
                    > You might want to go back and take note of
                    > words such as *maybe* and *if*.
                    >
                    > Mike wrote:
                    >
                    > >>So if you wanna chat some of your Holocaust
                    > denial Jive . . . I might be willing to
                    > accomadate [sic] your seeming need for
                    > "earnestness and sencerity [sic]".<<
                    >
                    > Robert writes:
                    >
                    > I don't much want to "chat" about what you
                    > call my "Holocaust denial Jive"; I groan
                    > inwardly at the thought of getting my
                    > cyber-fingers stuck in that tar baby again.
                    > But if you have a "need" or desire to
                    > search for historical truth in that area,
                    > I might be willing to try to accommodate
                    > you, within reason. But I am no special
                    > expert; you might have as much success
                    > just by doing some Googling on your own.
                    >
                    > . . . But I suspect that I am dealing with
                    > another quirky sense of humor, and that
                    > you are more interested in my "basementology"
                    > than in history. Please be assured that I
                    > look into my own basement regularly, and
                    > that I have sometimes explored down there
                    > with professional guidance and in "group
                    > work". I don't intend to attempt such
                    > "work" with this "group" of amateurs in
                    > this very public cyberspace.
                    >
                    >
                    > Robert Mason
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                    > Access over 1 million songs.
                    > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
                    >




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                  • Tarjei Straume
                    ... I m also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his last couple of posts. Tarjei
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                      Dottie wrote:

                      >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such ignorance posing
                      >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name attached to give it
                      >more weight.

                      I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his true colors with his
                      last couple of posts.

                      Tarjei
                    • Tarjei Straume
                      ... Uncle Taz continueth: I ve done some thinking around the topic of anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by previous contributors against Jews
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                        I wrote:

                        >I've been listening to half a dozen interviews
                        >with Holocaust survivor and 1986 Nobel Peace
                        >Prize laureate Eli Wiesel at the Open Mind
                        >program with Richard Hefner, where he talks
                        >about the anatomy of hate, the Holcaust,
                        >anti-Semitism and related issues. You may also
                        >have seen that program with Oprah Winfrey, where
                        >she and Wiesel take a cold winter's day alk
                        >around Auschwitz, the factory of death, where
                        >Wiesel survived miraclulously, and to himself
                        >incomprehensibly, at the tender age of 15. They
                        >look at all the evidence, the gas hambers and
                        >the gas cannisters, all the clothes and shoes
                        >left behind by rich and poor, young and old, and
                        >the tons and tons of hair cut off the victims
                        >intended to be used for anufacturing something
                        >useful. A factory of death with Eli Wiesel and
                        >many others as closeup eyewitnesses.

                        Uncle Taz continueth:

                        I've done some thinking around the topic of
                        anti-Semitism and arguments presented here by
                        previous contributors against Jews collectively,
                        such as "Christ-rejection", decadent and
                        atavistic monotheism, fuelling the brutal
                        shadow-side of Israel's politics through Zionists
                        in Israel itself and the Jewish lobby in the US,
                        being responsible for all wars and arms
                        productions - these allegations against Jews in
                        general go on and on and amount to something
                        where Peter Staudenmaier has a valid point for a
                        change, namely the phenomenon of anti-Semitism
                        from the political left in the light of justified
                        increasing criticism against Israel's politics.
                        And it's precisely because this anti-Semitism
                        comes from the left, that Mr. Lightsearcher jumps
                        in and showers me with praise for opposing it. He
                        wouldn't have been so fast on that trigger of his
                        if it had been easier for me to make certain
                        points on this issue that the time in question.
                        This was very difficult, however, in the face of
                        so much weird stuff that was being written about
                        the Jews here by certain individuals.

                        Before I get to those points, it should be made
                        clear, however, that Israeli political
                        propagandists have been abusing history, the
                        Holocaust, and the charge of anti-Semitism for
                        many decades in an endeavor to silence criticism
                        against Israel. The claim that anti-Semitism is
                        on the rise today, also in the West, is pure
                        propaganda not based on fact. Norman G.
                        Finkelstein has written some books on this issue:
                        "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the
                        Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" and "Beyond
                        Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History."

                        Finkelstein has frequently criticized the
                        Anti-Defamation League as an organization
                        dedicated not to defend against anti-Semitism,
                        but to defamation of critics of Israel.
                        Ultimately, he argues, the ADL trivializes real
                        anti-Semitism by "crying wolf" with fraudulent
                        allegations of Holocaust denial and "New anti-Semitism".

                        In a letter to Georgetown University, the ADL
                        referred to Finkelstein as a "known Holocaust
                        denier". This is very ironic indeed when we take
                        into account that not only is Finkelstein Jewish;
                        his parents were Polish Auschwitz survivors. And
                        by accusing Finkelstein of Holocaust denial, the ADL prove him right:

                        Finkelstein has routinely dismissed this charge
                        as spurious, pointing to his various descriptions
                        of the Holocaust as an indisputable fact, and
                        referring mockingly to "each of the many
                        occasions that ADL has slandered this writer as a
                        'well-known Holocaust denier.'" More recently,
                        the Washington Post said of the ADL's allegation
                        against Finkelstein that it "proved baseless."

                        In an interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy
                        Now, Finkelstein argued that in the eyes of the
                        ADL "anyone who's a critic of Israel becomes an
                        anti-Semite. And the truth of the matter is, the
                        real anti-Semites, they don't really care about
                        -- or the real Holocaust deniers, which is their
                        other favorite epithet to hurl at people or
                        expectorate at people who are critical of
                        Israel." In that same interview, Finkelstein went
                        on to say that genuine instances of Holocaust
                        denial – such as Mahmoud Abbas's doctoral
                        dissertation (which claimed that less than a
                        million Jews were killed by the Nazis) or Silvio
                        Berlusconi's claim that Mussolini was a "benign
                        dictator" who "never killed anyone" (thousands of
                        Italian Jews were sent to their deaths under
                        Fascism) – are routinely downplayed by the ADL if
                        the perpetrator is regarded an ally of the U.S. and Israel.

                        In other words, Robert Mason is safe from
                        criticism by the ADL, in spite of his *real*
                        Holocaust revisionism, if he only proclaims support of Israel.

                        The accusation of Holocaust denial and Holocaust
                        revisionism against Finkelstein have been
                        periodically echoed by other writers, including
                        Phyllis Chesler, David Hornik, and Steven Plaut,
                        all writing in Front Page Magazine, Martin
                        Peretz, the Publisher of The New Republic, and
                        Marc Fisher in the Washington Post. After several
                        exchanges of letters and phone calls with
                        Finkelstein, the Washington Post issued a
                        retraction, in which Fisher wrote "Finkelstein
                        has never denied the existence of the Holocaust,
                        and I did not intend to suggest that."

                        Finkelstein says that he relies on the work of
                        Raul Hilberg for historical facts about the
                        Holocaust, and cites as authoritative Hilberg's
                        figures for the numbers of Holocaust Jewish
                        victims killed (5.1 million). He has also written
                        that "no rational person disputes that the Nazis
                        systematically exterminated 5-6 million Jews" and
                        "whether the actual figure was closer to 5 rather
                        than 6 million might have historical significance
                        [...] but zero moral significance". In The
                        Holocaust Industry Finkelstein took issue with
                        the numbers of Holocaust survivors as quoted by
                        groups seeking Holocaust reparations. Finkelstein
                        told an interviewer, "There's not a single word
                        in the book that can be interpreted as Holocaust
                        denial. Rather the contrary, I insist throughout
                        the book that the conventional view of the Nazi
                        holocaust - i.e, an assembly-line, industrialized
                        killing of the Jews - is correct, and that the
                        conventional figures on those killed are (more or less) correct."

                        (Source: Wikipedia)

                        And now I'll get to my point. It's very
                        interesting to note - very interesting indeed! -
                        that all the most radical, dangerous, fierce,
                        analytical critics of Israel and of US foreign
                        policy are Jews: Norman Finkelstein, Amy Goodman,
                        Noam Chomsky (who was once an advisor to
                        Mossad!), Seymor Hersh (who in addition to
                        reporting The My Lai Massacre and exposing the
                        sinister side of the current administration's
                        policy with regard to Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon,
                        has also written a myth-busting book about JFK,
                        "The Dark Side of Camelot", which should interest
                        Frank and others), professor Howard Zinn (the
                        historian, social critic, and political scientist
                        who wrote "A People's History of the United
                        States"), innumerable ACLU lawyers, and the list
                        goes on and on. The so-called radical left, which
                        flirts with anarchist ideas, seeks to protect
                        Latin America's turn to the left from US right
                        wing intervention, defends Muslims against ethnic
                        profiling and against meddling in Arab countries,
                        stands up for Palestinians against Israeli
                        brutality - this movement carries lots and lots and lots of Jews.

                        What does this mean? It means a lot of things.
                        For starters, what does it mean for Mr.
                        Lightsearcher? It means when Mr. Lightsearcher
                        defames and libels "liberals" and "leftists" with
                        all kinds of moral character assassinations like
                        cowardice, hypocrisy, criminality, fraud,
                        untruthfulness and so on, he's defaming an awful
                        lot of Jews. So although Mr. Lightsearcher is
                        primarily interested in defaming Muslims and
                        allegedly in defending Jews, he is hypocritical
                        to a tee offering his support to my opposition to anti-Semitism.

                        Secondly, what does this mean for Peter
                        Staudenmaier? It means that he's facing a problem
                        of contradictions, although he'll have little
                        trouble acrobating himself around it through his
                        well-knwn feat of juggling words and phrases with
                        his usual sleight of hand. Peter S has pointed
                        out that there's this phenomenon of anti-Semitism
                        from the left, where criticism of Israel is
                        conflated with criticism of all Jews collectively
                        and of Judaism. In addition to this, whenever
                        someone has pointed out to him that
                        anthroposophists are close to Jews and that there
                        are many Jewish anthroposophists, PS comes up
                        with some phrases about philo-Semitic Anthros and
                        anti-Semitic Semites. But what Peter S is doing
                        when he starts rabbling about anti-Semitic
                        Semites, is echoing certain false accusations,
                        such as those of ADL against Norman Finkelstein.
                        Even Noam Chomsky, whom Peter S seems to admire
                        (they're both anarchists, more or less), would
                        have to be a so-called anti-Semitic Semite
                        according to such twisted definitions. And then
                        Staudenmaier is left with his problem of old,
                        once brilliantly pointed out by Bradford, namely
                        how many anti-Semites he can squeeze into a VW bug.

                        Thirdly, what does this mean for Robert Mason?
                        He's busted, pure and simple. From the start. He
                        has defended the views of even the most notorious
                        Holocaust deniers with mean axes to grind against
                        the Jews, people who are only featured in a
                        positive light on neo-Nazi websites and similar
                        far-right or bizarre anti-Jewish campaigns. And
                        when I once asked him how he felt about Jews, he
                        refused to answer, and this silence speaks
                        volumes. He could have said something like, "It
                        depends upon which Jews you're talking about," but he didn't. He's busted.

                        Fourthly, what does all this mean for the legacy
                        of Rudolf Steiner? For starters, Robert Mason
                        exposing his true colors when challenged is a
                        huge plus for this legacy, a smelly taint
                        removed. The problem of Dan Dugan and Peter
                        Staudenmaier, with quacking ducks like the
                        thoroughly confused Diana Winters on their tail,
                        is that when they're accusing Rudolf Steiner of
                        anti-Semitism, they're guilty of the same
                        intellectual dishonesty as the evangelical
                        Religious Right, Mossad, and other one-sided
                        defenders of Israel who say that any criticism of
                        Israel or of anything associated with Jewish
                        culture, is by definition anti-Semitic. So in
                        order not to be an anti-Semite, one would have to
                        utter nothing but praise of Israeli militarism or
                        any other issue with Jewish connotations. Other
                        than that, one would have to shut up.

                        The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
                        severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
                        his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
                        supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
                        to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
                        looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
                        ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
                        of this is patriotism, "My country right or
                        wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
                        or sober," which is ridiculous.)

                        By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
                        Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
                        others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
                        Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
                        self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
                        derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
                        epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
                        Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
                        nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
                        price. You'll be attacked from the right by
                        orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

                        And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:

                        They have to stop all this nonsense about
                        left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
                        21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
                        bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
                        ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
                        same token, they have to stop talking about "the
                        West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
                        West Office" or something. The White House
                        doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.

                        Cheers,

                        Tarjei
                      • dottie zold
                        ... Me too. It just puts everything into perspective. Hey Taz, d ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                          > Dottie wrote:
                          >
                          > >I am thankful that Vorstand stood up against such
                          > ignorance posing
                          > >as spiritual science with Rudolf Steiner's name
                          > attached to give it
                          > >more weight.
                          >
                          > I'm also thankful to Mr. Mason for revealing his
                          > true colors with his
                          > last couple of posts.

                          Me too. It just puts everything into perspective.

                          Hey Taz,
                          d



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                        • Mike helsher
                          ... wrote: ... Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume
                            <straume@...> wrote:

                            <snip>
                            > The Hole Dwellers have criticized Steiner
                            > severely for mentioning that a Jewish friend of
                            > his had "outgrown his Jewishness". This was
                            > supposed to be anti-Semitic. Have they ever tried
                            > to contemplate what the Doctor meant? To me, it
                            > looks fairly simple: To think outside one's
                            > ethnic, religious, or national box. (The opposite
                            > of this is patriotism, "My country right or
                            > wrong," which literally means, "My mother drunk
                            > or sober," which is ridiculous.)

                            Clearly a Mountain out of a Mole hill. And it would seem that those
                            who see Modern anti-semitism in the words on paper, can't seem to
                            think out of what ever Box they are thinking in. Indeed the big
                            picture that Steiner puts forth is Monumental in the direction of
                            thinking past Dogma and propaganda and any sectarian orthodoxy. But I
                            suppose if your looking for a gnat, on a cows ass, in the middle of a
                            100 acre farm field in up state Vermont - you could find one.
                            >
                            > By this definition, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky,
                            > Norman Finkelstein, Seymor Hersh and all the
                            > others have "outgrown their Jewishness".
                            > Political opponents are prone to accuse them of
                            > self-hatred, treason, extremism, and every other
                            > derogatory and politically charged liberal-hating
                            > epitaph farted out by our very own Mr.
                            > Lightsearcher. Outgrowing one's ethnicity or
                            > nationality, becoming a homeless soul, has a
                            > price. You'll be attacked from the right by
                            > orthodox conservatives and from the left by the likes of Peter S.

                            Priceless! Brain chemistry inspired deualistic simplicity gives off
                            the same kind of comforting braingasms as a boat load of chocolate
                            does to a chocoholic. And where is the learning in all these
                            calculated concepts stated with so much one-sided arrogance?

                            Humm, I have a new theory...it's not so much the Gandalf denial, as
                            it is....GRINCH DENIAL!...that seems to pleauge all these ACCUSERS,
                            and wagging finger pointers. As Stewart Smally as it may sound, there
                            are always three times as many fingers pointing right back at the
                            finger pointer. I personally only trust those who are not prone to
                            telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mr
                            lightsearcher, and Mr. Mason pay lip-service to this.

                            Seems also that being attacked by both left and right could be a sign
                            that yur doing something truly Moral..IMO.

                            >
                            > And Uncle Taz concludeth with a few final words of wisdom:
                            >
                            > They have to stop all this nonsense about
                            > left-wing and right-wing. It has no place in the
                            > 21st century. Left and right wings belong on a
                            > bird or an airplane up in the sky, not on the
                            > ground, and certainly not in politics. By the
                            > same token, they have to stop talking about "the
                            > West Wing" and call it something else, like "the
                            > West Office" or something. The White House
                            > doesn't fly to the best of my knowledge.


                            Yeee Haaa! (words that scared Richard Prior).

                            And they should be Honest and revert to the "Defence departments"
                            original name....

                            THE WAR DEPARTMENT!

                            Mike
                          • Mike helsher
                            ... That should read: I personally only trust those who ARE prone to telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others. Mike
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                              I wrote:
                              >I personally only trust those who are not prone to
                              > telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

                              That should read:


                              I personally only trust those who ARE prone to
                              telling the truth about their own shit, as well as that of others.

                              Mike
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