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  • Joel Wendt
    Dear new and old friends, Someone, I expect it was Uncle Taz s nephew, sent me an invitation to join this conversation list yesterday. So I did, and I thought
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 27, 2003
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      Dear new and old friends,

      Someone, I expect it was Uncle Taz's nephew, sent me an invitation to
      join this conversation list yesterday. So I did, and I thought I would
      now introduce myself, and make a few comments. I've read the first 100
      e-mails in the archive, and didn't want to pass by those struggles to
      understand the world, without adding from my own experience and
      thinking.

      As a side note, the movie Charlie was not based upon something written
      by Ray Bradbury, but upon a short novel called Flowers for Algernon
      (Algernon being the mouse that was experimented on before the human
      being was), which was written (I had to Google this) by one Daniel Keyes
      [ http://www.danielkeyesauthor.com/algernon.html ].

      That minor point aside, I'd now like to add some comments to the
      conversation about Islam.

      In my thinking, I try to distinguish a religion, whether Islam,
      Buddhism, Christianity, whatever, from the life and biography into which
      an incarnating spirit has entered. We are, on the Earth, star-children,
      each and every one of us. We've come from our star, and entered into
      life accepting our Karma (ordained and agreed to suffering as recompense
      for past and future deeds), Fate (those new trials that come given that
      each biography is always an ongoing shared creation - it would be empty
      were others not part of it) and Destiny (that which we ourselves can
      make into Art out of our life, and which is neither Karma or Fate, but
      our own individual invention).

      In order to experience this threefold life pattern and potential, we
      choose at the Midnight Hour, in the company of Higher Beings, to live
      out our biography within a particular time, culture, language, religion,
      and related and necessary companions (family, friends and enemies -
      these last are crucial for they are often our greatest teachers). What
      this means is that Islam is no more crucial to the biographies of those
      who have chosen to incarnate within its influence than was/is
      traditional Catholicism or Hinduism.

      It is context, but not essence.

      Moreover, in our time, in the Age of the Consciousness Soul, it is
      precisely the dead and dying aspects of these religious traditions which
      the individual star-child is meant to encounter and struggle with in
      order to have the possibility of finding personal spiritual freedom.
      These cultural contexts exist precisely and only for the purpose of
      providing us with a certain tension, which our developing I-am needs to
      meet and grow within.

      So as regards to Islam, there are two aspects to it. One is tradition,
      and found in the Koran and other teachings. The other is what the
      individual star-child does with it, out of their own humanity, and which
      we can only know through personal meetings with such individuals. Our
      imagination cannot supply us with knowledge of the second, or lived
      Islam, which individuals manifest, any more than our imagination can
      supply us with knowledge of how an individual and particular Catholic
      chooses to live out their humanity in the context of that tradition.

      The fact is that Christ has given to all egos, all star-children, the
      same nature in the I-am. When we meet the Thou, in whatever
      circumstances or context, we meet that about which Christ said:
      "Whatsoever ye do to the least of these my brethren, you also do to me."

      warm regards,
      joel

      for those who may be new to me
      Shapes in the Fire: http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/index.html
      Outlaw Anthroposophy: http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/otlwa.html
      some thoughts on the nature of public life and an offer of service:
      http://ipwebdev.com/campaign
      Celebration and Theater - a People's Art of Statecraft:
      http://ipwebdev.com/celebration
    • Tarjei Straume
      ... Thank you for the correction and clarification. My error. ... My sentiment exactly. In an earlier message I wrote:
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 27, 2003
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        At 14:13 27.11.2003, Joel wrote:

        >As a side note, the movie Charlie was not based upon something written by
        >Ray Bradbury, but upon a short novel called Flowers for Algernon (Algernon
        >being the mouse that was experimented on before the human being was),
        >which was written (I had to Google this) by one Daniel Keyes [
        >http://www.danielkeyesauthor.com/algernon.html ].

        Thank you for the correction and clarification. My error.

        >In my thinking, I try to distinguish a religion, whether Islam, Buddhism,
        >Christianity, whatever, from the life and biography into which an
        >incarnating spirit has entered.

        My sentiment exactly. In an earlier message I wrote:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/22

        ".....the distinction needs to be made between a religion like that and its
        individual followers."

        ".....remember the Good Samaritan, who today would translate into the Good
        Muslim."

        Cheers,


        Tarjei
        http://uncletaz.com/
      • dottie zold
        Hey Tarjei and Joel, I wanted to share a few quotes from the Qu ran that I find relative to this discussion. Abraham in truth was not a Jew, neither a
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 27, 2003
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          Hey Tarjei and Joel,

          I wanted to share a few quotes from the Qu'ran that I find relative
          to this discussion.

          "Abraham in truth was not a Jew,
          neither a Christian; but one who surrendered himself (muslim)
          and one of pure faith (hanif); certainly he was never
          of the idolators.
          Surely the people standing closest to Abraham
          are those who followed him, and this prophet,
          and those who believe; and God is the Protector
          of the believers."


          "Say you: 'We believe in God, and
          in that which has been sent down on us
          and sent down on Abraham, Ishmael,
          Isaac and Jacob and the Tribes,
          and that which was given to Moses and Jesus
          and the Prophets, of their Lord; we
          make no division between any of them, and
          to Him we surrender.'

          It seems to me that this muslim is actually the act of surrendering
          one self. And there are three more steps within this whole search for
          God.(I showed this earlier in a post about the Treatise of the Heart
          by and early Sufi writer) Even the word jihad comes from 'struggle'
          and is directly tied to the struggle within, against ones lower self.
          Ms. Armstrong notes that there are many other words that could have
          been used to denote war and such and they were not used in the
          instances where Jihad was if what they were looking for was a war.

          I have not found anything to suggest, in this book I am reading, that
          Muhammed was a camel stealer and so forth. I asked my Christian
          friend from Lebanon about Muhammed being a camel stealer and she
          looked at me like I was crazy and then she laughed so hard. I felt a
          wee bit silly and just tried to explain some of the things I had been
          hearing lately and actually before as well. I told my friend Markram
          that I had heard Muhammed had stolen camels and he asked me for
          other things I had heard. He seemed a bit shocked to say the least.

          Markam used to ask me to search the bible for he was sure there was a
          reference to Muhammed in the NT. I told him I had searched and asked
          others but no where was this acknowledged. I actually found out in
          this book i am reading, that there indeed was a tradition in the
          early days of Islam that mentions an Ahmet in the Syriac bible which
          was around that area at the time. I wonder if anyone else knows about
          this particular reference.

          What I find very interesting while reading this book is an idea long
          ago brought up by another list regarding the shadow. Can it be that
          we indeed have made a reputation that these people are now beholden
          to. And instead of fighting themselves to surrender they have to
          continually fight this shadow self concept. For truly the majority of
          Muslims do not hate Christians. They do not like that we involve
          ourselves in their Prophet, to the extent we have since the beginning
          it seems, but they do not hate us.

          And also I think if we took the Gandhi approach with a group like
          this, and not to change their religion but to inspire them to the
          highest idea within theirs, we would have a better world. And we
          would be loved greatly by God:) I don't find them to be blindly
          following and any more non thinking than the rest of the God fearing
          people on this planet. When these terrorists choose to fly a plane
          into the tower they are only following those like minded terrorists
          and not Islam. They are a small lot affecting the whole world
          including their own people who disagree with these methods. One thing
          that may turn against them is the killing of innocent muslims whether
          intentioned or not. This is the one thing that truly has a capactiy
          to bring the wrath of good Muslims upon their heads.

          What does anyone think about the concept that being a muslim is
          actually meant for anyone who surrenders to God and is the first step
          to self realization?


          Dottie
        • dottie zold
          ... that ... Me again, Yes, I have found references towards Muhammed being a part of caravans that stole camels, goods, women and so forth. And in looking at
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 27, 2003
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            Dottie wrote:
            > I have not found anything to suggest, in this book I am reading,
            that
            > Muhammed was a camel stealer and so forth.

            Me again,

            Yes, I have found references towards Muhammed being a part of
            caravans that stole camels, goods, women and so forth. And in looking
            at this it seems that this is part of the makeup of these people at
            the time and even appears in the OT as well with the Jews. It seems
            to be part and parcel of how things happened in the Arabian
            territories. Yet, it almost feels like the whole Robinhood dilema of
            stealing from the rich to feed their own poor: they had been kicked
            out of their town and almost starved to death so the story is told by
            Karen Armstrong.

            I am struck as well by the story of how the veil came to take place.
            It seems it was an honor that would allow Muhammeds wives to show
            their queenliness:) due to Muhammeds growing popularity. It also
            served as a protection of sorts for them from the possibility of any
            scandal that might have been brought on Muhammeds family regarding
            his wives and other men. In later years, other women wanted to show
            their queenliness as well and decided to take on the veil as a show
            of respect for themselves and how they wished to be treated.

            I wish to bring a few suras once I can get my hands on the Qu'ran
            that has a good interpretation. There are references regarding womens
            rights, that were not even honored in our country until the 19th
            century, that were alotted to these women of the desert. He seems
            indeed to have been quite honoring of women for a man of his time.
            Many of the marriages seem to be a political brokering of sorts that
            allowed some further protection from the groups wanting to annihilate
            him for the new religion and so forth.

            All in all I do not know how anyone can judge this Prophet's story,
            taking moral high ground, when ours began in a very similar manner.
            And we obviously were much more educated than they or at least the
            story goes.

            Does Steiner ever speak of another incarnation of this Muhammed?

            All good things,
            dottie
          • Tarjei Straume
            ... As a matter of fact, Norway was Christianized a millennium ago by king Holy Olav. His method was to cut the heads off unbelievers, just like Mohammed. It
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 28, 2003
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              At 05:27 28.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

              >All in all I do not know how anyone can judge this Prophet's story,
              >taking moral high ground, when ours began in a very similar manner.

              As a matter of fact, Norway was Christianized a millennium ago by king
              "Holy Olav." His method was to cut the heads off unbelievers, just like
              Mohammed. It was quite effective. But there is no need to criticize Holy
              Olav because Christians today don't look up to him as a prophet and try to
              emulate him. By the same token, the criticism is not against Mohammed and
              his blood-stained biography. It's a concern about so many people regarding
              this barbarian historical figure as a role model, still cutting off
              people's heads and limbs in public squares.

              RS said somewhere that we're making a mistake if we compare religions with
              the sole purpose of finding out what they have in common, how similar they
              may be. It is much more important to discover how they differ, to
              distinguish between them. Buddha and Christ didn't run around killing
              people. On the contrary, they both sought to relieve suffering and offer a
              way out of it.


              Tarjei
              http://uncletaz.com/
            • dottie zold
              Tarjei wrote: His method was to cut the heads off ... Dear Tarjei, I would like some more time to look at this subject before responding any further. In the
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 28, 2003
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                Tarjei wrote:
                His method was to cut the heads off
                > unbelievers, just like
                > Mohammed.

                Dear Tarjei,

                I would like some more time to look at this subject
                before responding any further. In the book I am
                reading I have found no instance where Muhmmed cut off
                heads because people didn't believe. I have found
                however that he did not convert others forcibly and it
                is actually in the Qu'ran that this is not to be done.
                Ms. Armstrong does say that a few hundred years after
                Muhammeds death his one sect of his believers did
                indeed bring forced conversions but at some point
                this disappeared as well.

                Tarjei
                By the same token, the criticism is not
                > against Mohammed and
                > his blood-stained biography.

                Dottie

                Well, it seems to me that it is against his biography
                if it happens to not be true. Scientologists claim
                that Jesus was a perverter of little boys. And they
                can point to the current 'outing' scandal of this
                issue with the many coverups of molestations and rapes
                happening in their very churches to show their claim
                to be true. We obviously realize this is not true
                however they are giving Jesus a reputation according
                to his followers.

                I am so happy you brought this stream of Islam to the
                group. It's actually the first time, and I have wanted
                to for a while, that I am actually creating time to
                read on him. My muslim friends have been encouraging
                me a while to take a look at their Prophet but I
                didn't and so now I shall look to see what is going
                on. Do you have a specific book you can recommed that
                speaks to the way your understanding that you consider
                credible?

                The only head cutting or dismembering I have found in
                Muhammeds fight, before his death, is when he was
                determined to not be pushed out by the Qyaarsh who
                were a pagan following group. They despised Muhammed
                even though he came from the same area. They did not
                want to give up the Goddess and move to a one God
                system. There were quite a few attempts on his life
                and he wasn't safe really anywhere with certain
                groups teaming up with the Jews to take him out. It is
                not a pretty time of Islam however it does pretty much
                seem spirit inspired. After the initial war for a
                singular God it seems Muhammed led them to a place of
                peace. In their Qu'ran they are told that if the enemy
                makes a concession they are to take it no matter what
                it is. That peace is better than war. He felt that
                physical war was the little jihad and fighting ones
                self was the greater Jihad.

                Gabriel seems to be the Angel in which Muhammed was in
                contact.

                All in all, I sense something very different than you.
                I am not trying to find what is common at this point
                although there is much. I am trying to point out the
                similarities in which many of the great religions
                began well at least the three connected to Abraham.

                One difference being however is that Muhammed does not
                seem to have a great personal bio, or it has not be
                noted upon, with a great spiritual being inhabiting
                his body. He was dependant on his faith and what he
                believed the messages of God were telling him. He was
                not as blessed as Jesus nor that of the Buddha. He
                seems to be a man who wrought out of nothing to bring
                his all to God and his all to the people. And his
                primary concern was for the orphans and the widows. He
                felt that one of the tribe should marry these left
                behind groups so as to insure them a good life. And
                that God would store treasures for the good behaviour
                for this. I find him to be a good man of God who did
                the best he could to bring a people together under one
                God which allowed them to move forward with the rest
                of the middle eastern world. I find him to be a man
                riding the dragon.

                But after all this is said and done I feel the need to
                read more of this man to have a better understanding
                for the future.

                Tarjei
                It's a concern about so
                > many people regarding
                > this barbarian historical figure as a role model,
                > still cutting off
                > people's heads and limbs in public squares.

                Dottie

                What books on Muhammed have you read that show him to
                be a barbarian or maybe what websites?

                Tarjei
                Buddha and Christ didn't
                > run around killing
                > people. On the contrary, they both sought to relieve
                > suffering and offer a
                > way out of it.

                Dottie

                Muhammed sought to find a way out of the killing and
                suffering as well and he did. He led his people, as
                the Jews and Christians did, to one God. The main
                difference that I have noted earlier is the idea that
                this Muhammed had no great spiritual being inhabit his
                body he was totally guided by his heartmind connected
                to the Cosmos. He seemed to be heading towards the I
                AM.

                Thanks for sticking with me during this discussion. I
                feel the need to go deeper than what others have said
                and told us about this Prophet in the same way I have
                felt about searching for the Mother.

                All my best,
                Dottie


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              • Tarjei Straume
                ... It seems like I m picking up conflicting info about Mohammed s biography, so you may be right; there are plenty of articles supporting you here, e.g.
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                  At 15:02 28.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

                  >In the book I am reading I have found no instance where Muhmmed cut off
                  >heads because people didn't believe. I have found however that he did not
                  >convert others forcibly and it is actually in the Qu'ran that this is not
                  >to be done. Ms. Armstrong does say that a few hundred years after
                  >Muhammeds death his one sect of his believers did indeed bring forced
                  >conversions but at some point this disappeared as well.

                  It seems like I'm picking up conflicting info about Mohammed's biography,
                  so you may be right; there are plenty of articles supporting you here, e.g.
                  "Mohammed The Prophet"

                  http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/lifeofprophet.html

                  Like I said, my perceptions may be biased and ignorant. I'm still learning.

                  <snip>

                  >Gabriel seems to be the Angel in which Muhammed was in contact.

                  Corroborated by RS too, as far as I remember.

                  <snip>

                  >What books on Muhammed have you read that show him to be a barbarian or
                  >maybe what websites?

                  I do have a book by Idries Shah entitled "The Way of the Sufi," but I
                  haven't gotten very far, because it is bewildering in the sense that
                  Mohammed and the Qu'ran are sidestepped when the Sufis themselves claim
                  that their knowledge has existed for thousands of years: An equivalence of
                  the Hermetic, Pythagorean and Platonic streams.

                  The way of the Sufi, therefore, is not the way of Islam:

                  http://www.yelwan.com/islam/shahada49.asp

                  "....there is no need of a Prophet after Prophet Muhammad, for the Message,
                  i.e., the Holy Quran (that he has brought for the whole world) is the final
                  and the completest Code of Religion, and is and will be preserved for all
                  time absolutely intact in its original form; besides the authentic record
                  of the Prophet's eventful life covering all human activities is also
                  extant, and will always remain as a Model for mankind. Hence no Prophet
                  either with code and commandments, or without, is required after him, and
                  therefore the Holy Quran says that Prophet Muhammad is the last and the
                  Seal of all Prophets."

                  Here is an interesting set of rules from a bona fide Muslim website:

                  http://www.yelwan.com/islam/shahada55.asp

                  ***********************************************************************************

                  Can you name some of the acts that are major sins and are liable for severe
                  punishment ?

                  Yes. Some of the acts that are major sins are liable for severe punishment
                  are :

                  1. To believe in anyone as partner of Allah.
                  2. To disbelieve in Allah or His Prophets or His Books or to deny any of
                  the Fundamental Principles of Islam.
                  3. To lie
                  4. To commit adultery or sodomy
                  5. To rob or steal
                  6. To cheat or deceive anyone
                  7. To bear false witness
                  8. To bring false charge against anyone.
                  9. To backbite
                  10. To abuse anybody or injure anyone's feelings.

                  ***********************************************************************************

                  This is why the Mujaddid of the Age (Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib of
                  Qadian) found it necessary to include in his oath of allegiance the
                  condition: "I shall put religion above the world." His aim was to instil in
                  the lives of Muslims a practical manifestation of their faith in Allah.

                  Islam: A false religion that was invented by illiterate individual who was
                  a pedophile rapist, a robber, a mass murderer, and who made Charlie Manson
                  look like a nice guy in comparison. The so-called prophet Mohammed was for
                  all practical purposes was an Enemy of Mankind in General..

                  "Mohammed (aka: Muhammad) - Terrorist or Prophet?" (Christian-Jewish site)

                  http://feistymama.com/bp/mohammed.htm

                  http://www.allahjones.org/pro_mo.htm

                  "The Truth About Islam"

                  http://www.pagerealm.com/celinet/

                  And here is a little special quote from the Quran:

                  Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of
                  them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good
                  women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and
                  (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave
                  them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you,
                  do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

                  Plus a few choice pieces from Islam Review
                  http://www.islamreview.com/articles/issuesoflife.shtml

                  ******************************************************

                  Islam teaches that women are less than equal to men in at least two major
                  areas:

                  First, in inheritance: A woman's share is half that of a man.

                  "To the male a portion equal to that of two females..." Surah 4:11

                  Second, in court witness: The witness of two women equals the witness of
                  one man.

                  "And get two witnesses out of your own men, and if there are not two men,
                  then a man and two women such as ye choose, for witness..." Surah 2:282

                  Islam teaches that a wife is subject to punishment by her husband. As a
                  punishment, beating a wife or abstaining from sexual relations with her is
                  allowed.

                  "...As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct,
                  Admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them,..." Surah 4:34

                  "For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting for
                  four months is ordained; if they return, God is oft-forgiving, most
                  merciful." Surah 2:226

                  Islam teaches that any person who accepts Islam and then later turns away
                  from it will be subject to death.

                  "But if they violate their oath after their covenant, and taunt you for
                  your faith, fight ye the chiefs of unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to
                  them." Surah 9:12 (See also Surah 4:89)

                  Resisting Islam: punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the
                  hands and feet.

                  "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and
                  strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or
                  crucifixion, or the cutting off of the hands and feet from opposite sides
                  or exile from the land..." Surah 5:33

                  Adultery and Fornication: punished by public flogging for the unmarried
                  person. For the married, the punishment is stoning.

                  "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them
                  with a hundred stripes; let not compassion move you in their case, in a
                  matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day; and
                  let a party of the believers witness their punishment." Surah 24:2

                  Stealing: punished by amputation of the hands.

                  "As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: A punishment,
                  by way of example, from Allah for their crime: and Allah is exalted in
                  power." Surah 5:38

                  Drinking: punished by 40 to 80 lashes according to the Hadith (Mohammed's
                  sayings). - See Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 8:770

                  Islam forbids wine.

                  "O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, stones and arrows, are an
                  abomination, of Satan's handiwork: Eschew such that you may prosper." Surah
                  5:90

                  Ironically, the faithful are promised "rivers of wine" in Paradise.

                  "The garden which the righteous are promised...in it are rivers of wine, a
                  joy to those who drink..." Surah 47:15

                  "...truly the righteous will be in bliss,,, their thirst will be slaked
                  with pure wine sealed." Surah 83:22, 25

                  ******************************************************

                  >Muhammed sought to find a way out of the killing and suffering as well
                  >and he did. He led his people, as the Jews and Christians did, to one God.

                  We've already been through this monotheism bit, but even as such, the "one
                  God" we're talking about htere is not identical with the God described by
                  RS, who was previously quoted:

                  "The all-encompassing attribute of the Godhead is not omnipotence, neither
                  is it omniscience, but it is love - the attribute in respect of which no
                  enhancement is possible. God is uttermost love, unalloyed love, is born as
                  it were out of love, is the very substance and essence of love. God is pure
                  love, not supreme wisdom, not supreme might." -
                  http://www.uncletaz.com/lovemeaning.html

                  I'm sorry I had to snip some interesting parts of your text to make my
                  response relatively brief. If I get the time, I'll get back to those
                  snipped parts.

                  Cheers,


                  Tarjei
                  http://uncletaz.com/
                • dottie zold
                  Tarjei wrote: We ve already been through this monotheism bit, but even as such, the one ... described by ... Hey Dear Tarjei, I m going to the Imam; in a
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                    Tarjei wrote:
                    We've already been through this monotheism bit, but even as such,
                    the "one
                    > God" we're talking about htere is not identical with the God
                    described by
                    > RS, who was previously quoted:

                    Hey Dear Tarjei,

                    I'm going to the Imam; in a veil:) The great thing about this
                    internet communication reality is that we get to interact and be
                    inspired to look at things we may not have naturally.

                    I read your quotes to my friend Markram and he agreed these were
                    things said. He says how there are also many words that speak to the
                    opposite of what these specific quotes are saying. Contradictions all
                    over the place and his particular group looks to those particular
                    quotes for understanding while fundies tend to ignore these aspects
                    and go with the most outrageous of understandings.

                    The greatest thing is that I get to go to the Imam and we are going
                    to ask about these particular questions and quotes you have supplied.

                    As a gnostic minded christian I will say I as well go along with the
                    idea that the OT speaks to a tyrant god similar to the god of the
                    muslims. AND this tyrant god is the foundation of Christianity. So,
                    the question is if the OT god is the same Islam god? I believe they
                    are. I also had to come to an understanding, which was really hard
                    for me, for I was convinced that the God we were calling Father God
                    was a false Father, was really the one and same Father God of the NT:
                    it was the Son that was the new salvation and inspiration for the
                    Father to not be so mean minded. So, here I am with Islam looking at
                    the same questions as arose for me when I argued this point on the
                    Ark. How could God say, 'kill all those people, leave no women men or
                    children alive' and so forth, was what kept me from reading the OT my
                    whole life till just two years ago. How do we reconcile these things?

                    So, here you are calling this a different God and I have to disagree.
                    But anyway we shall look inside and see what is going on. I will tell
                    you that since my reading of this Muhammed book I feel a 'pull' of
                    sorts to look to God more often that I usually do. I mean my heart is
                    in a state of prayer most of the time but this 'pull' I am
                    experiencing is a definite 'feeling' towards prayer.

                    All my best,

                    Dottie
                  • golden3000997@cs.com
                    Hello Dottie, Tarjei and Everyone! Dottie, Steiner makes a tremendous distinction between God of the Old Testament, the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                      Hello Dottie, Tarjei and Everyone!

                      Dottie, Steiner makes a tremendous distinction between "God" of the Old
                      Testament, the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob and "God the Father". "God" as
                      revealed in the Old Testament is Yahweh, or Jehovah, one of the Seven Main
                      Exusiai (Spirits of Form) that live in the Sun Sphere. Whereas six of the seven are
                      Exusiai AND Spirits of the Sun, Jehovah was an Exusiai but a Spirit of the
                      Moon. His special task was as "God" of the Hebrew nation/race whose task was to
                      specially prepare the physical body that would be able to withstand and
                      support the reality of the Christ Being's Incarnation for the three years between
                      Baptism and Crucifixtion. The Buddha stream prepared and "donated" (my
                      terminology) the Etheric Body of the Nathan Child within that Physical Body of the
                      Hebrews. Moses/ Hermes out of the Egyptian stream "donated" the Astral Body which
                      was first with the Solomon Child and carried over when the Ego of Jesus (ie
                      Zarathustra) entered the Nathan Child (which carried the Adam Kadmon as well).
                      And the Zarathustra Ego carried the stream from the Persian mysteries with
                      which to work on the body from 12 to 30 to complete the preparation for the
                      Incarnation.

                      Yaweh or Jehovah, being a Spirit of Form, yet a Moon Exusiai had everything
                      to do with bloodline and heredity, which is part of the story of Cain and Abel
                      and why the gift of the shepherd (Abel) was acceptable while the gift of the
                      farmer (Cain) was not. He was never "God the Father". Maybe one could say he
                      was "the God of the Fathers" in a sense - Abraham, etc.. In relating themselves
                      to Abraham through Ishmael, his first son, those of the Mohammedan stream are
                      really relating themselves to "the God of the Fathers" not "God the Father."
                      I don't really know WHO Allah is, but what I have read so far leans me toward
                      Jehovah or some such Spiritual Being. After all, Steiner says that if a person
                      sees an Angel, he or she is going to think it is "GOD" for lack of
                      understanding of the hierarchies and who they are.

                      PLEASE don't take this the wrong way - with what I am about to say, I really
                      don't mean to criticize in any way. You told me that you have been reading
                      Steiner for years and I am sure that you have. But you might want to take some
                      time with his lectures on the Gospels and really sort out some of his work on
                      the whole incarnation and OT/ NT transition. I really feel in some of your
                      questions and responses that you are "mixing" up some basic ideas and that some of
                      the confusion that is arising in trying to make sense of things like the
                      relationship of Christianity to Islam starts with mixing up some concepts in
                      Steiner's Christology.

                      Have you had any contact, written or in person with the Christian Community.
                      Many Christian Community priests have written very beautiful and clear
                      descriptions of this Christology and what is really a new way of reading the Gospels
                      and understanding both the Old and New Testaments.

                      Well, there is so much to explore in Steiner's work, I think maybe we all
                      need to be Initiates just to be able to figure out where to begin!

                      : ) Christine
                    • dottie zold
                      Christine ... I really ... reading ... to take some ... his work on ... Hi Christine, I do not take it as an insult because I know one is not intended. And I
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                        Christine
                        > PLEASE don't take this the wrong way - with what I am about to say,
                        I really
                        > don't mean to criticize in any way. You told me that you have been
                        reading
                        > Steiner for years and I am sure that you have. But you might want
                        to take some
                        > time with his lectures on the Gospels and really sort out some of
                        his work on
                        > the whole incarnation and OT/ NT transition.

                        Hi Christine,

                        I do not take it as an insult because I know one is not intended. And
                        I also know that some things I was not able to 'think' on, while
                        first reading Steiners books, I can now. My spirit grasped onto
                        certain aspects that I felt we could make my own out of my own
                        personal experiences.

                        It's funny because I just wrote Tarjei about the idea of the OT god
                        being the same god as the Muslim god. And here you touch on that for
                        a second. AND for me as always I see a oneness in all things, and in
                        all that would be, at the End. Almost like two sides of one coin in a
                        sense. I find alot of transformation from one to the other with the
                        end being One.

                        Christine
                        I really feel in some of your
                        > questions and responses that you are "mixing" up some basic ideas
                        and that some of
                        > the confusion that is arising in trying to make sense of things
                        like the
                        > relationship of Christianity to Islam starts with mixing up some
                        concepts in
                        > Steiner's Christology.

                        Dottie

                        Well, I am not trying to make sense of Christianity and Islam to one
                        another. I sense Sophia in there and feel there is a real 'human'
                        relationship to this Muhammed through it. In my mind we are all One.
                        Even if we do not see it now. And I think we return to that Oneness
                        once we find the I AM. I believe once we find our I AM we come WE
                        ARE.

                        Unfortunately you may have to explain what concepts you think I am
                        mixing up because I am not aware I am using any Steiner concepts to
                        express my thoughts on Islam. I am using Christ concepts. And these
                        are concepts I made my own and my prism is through this.

                        Christine
                        > Have you had any contact, written or in person with the Christian
                        Community.
                        > Many Christian Community priests have written very beautiful and
                        clear
                        > descriptions of this Christology and what is really a new way of
                        reading the Gospels
                        > and understanding both the Old and New Testaments.

                        Dottie:

                        Again, I read the bible differently before Steiner ever came into the
                        picture. These questions were posed from childhood just about. I just
                        did not know others felt the same way. I use Steiner as a jumping
                        point in a sense and then I find myself in a whole stream of
                        spiritual understandings. I get confused sometimes when I hear people
                        say, oh well such and such and such and such, as facts, when it may
                        not be what they 'got' for themselves, rather it is what Steiner said
                        that felt self evident. And I can hear what he is saying but if I
                        don't find it on my own it is not mine, even to the littlest thing.
                        My beginning and end point is not Steiner its Christ. I guess what I
                        am trying to say...is that I get an intuitive feeling about something
                        and then I feel led to something, me being the guide to my self, that
                        shows me what I was intuitively feeling before I even knew what it
                        was. Mostly it is a confirmation of this 'thought/feeling and then I
                        see others speaking of it although I did not get it mentally in the
                        same way they did. And then I know it is mine. And usually it is
                        Steiners work that confirms for me, on an outer level, what I had
                        found and it never ceases to astound me.


                        Christine
                        > Well, there is so much to explore in Steiner's work, I think maybe
                        we all
                        > need to be Initiates just to be able to figure out where to begin!

                        Dottie

                        Well I think we are initiates. That is the path I am committed to and
                        that seems to be a Michaelic path to me. An initiate is not the end
                        result to me, rather it is the journey that becomes the initiate.

                        And I like that you point these things out to me. I trust you. And I
                        am committed to understanding.

                        Love,

                        Dottie

                        p.s. You spoke of this Christian community before and Steiners
                        comments to them. I am wondering if you can tell me where I can view
                        these lectures or talks?
                      • Richard Distasi
                        Christine wrote: Yaweh or Jehovah, being a Spirit of Form, yet a Moon Exusiai had everything to do with bloodline and heredity, which is part of the story of
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 30, 2003
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                          Christine wrote:
                           
                          "Yaweh or Jehovah, being a Spirit of Form, yet a Moon Exusiai had everything
                          to do with bloodline and heredity, which is part of the story of  Cain and Abel
                          and why the gift of the shepherd (Abel) was acceptable while the gift of the
                          farmer (Cain) was not. He was never "God the Father"."
                           
                          Steiner made mention that Jehovah was called the "Father" not because he is God the Father as you point out but because when we descend back to earth for each incarnation we pass through the elliptical sphere of the moon; the sphere of Jehovah. He gives us physical form, the forces that build our physical/mineral bodies and is perceived in a sense as our Father.
                           
                          rick distasi
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 11:07 PM
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: hello - Islam

                          Hello Dottie, Tarjei and Everyone!

                          Dottie, Steiner makes a tremendous distinction between "God" of the Old
                          Testament, the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob and "God the Father". "God" as
                          revealed in the Old Testament is Yahweh, or Jehovah, one of the Seven Main
                          Exusiai (Spirits of Form) that live in the Sun Sphere. Whereas six of the seven are
                          Exusiai AND Spirits of the Sun, Jehovah was an Exusiai but a Spirit of the
                          Moon. His special task was as "God" of the Hebrew nation/race whose task was to
                          specially prepare the physical body that would be able to withstand and
                          support the reality of the Christ Being's Incarnation for the three years between
                          Baptism and Crucifixtion. The Buddha stream prepared and "donated" (my
                          terminology) the Etheric Body of the Nathan Child within that Physical Body of the
                          Hebrews. Moses/ Hermes out of the Egyptian stream "donated" the Astral Body which
                          was first with the Solomon Child and carried over when the Ego of Jesus (ie
                          Zarathustra) entered the Nathan Child (which carried the Adam Kadmon as well).
                          And the Zarathustra Ego carried the stream from the Persian mysteries with
                          which to work on the body from 12 to 30 to complete the preparation for the
                          Incarnation.

                          Yaweh or Jehovah, being a Spirit of Form, yet a Moon Exusiai had everything
                          to do with bloodline and heredity, which is part of the story of  Cain and Abel
                          and why the gift of the shepherd (Abel) was acceptable while the gift of the
                          farmer (Cain) was not. He was never "God the Father". Maybe one could say he
                          was "the God of the Fathers" in a sense - Abraham, etc.. In relating themselves
                          to Abraham through Ishmael, his first son, those of the Mohammedan stream are
                          really relating themselves to "the God of the Fathers" not "God the Father."
                          I don't really know WHO Allah is, but what I have read so far leans me toward
                          Jehovah or some such Spiritual Being. After all, Steiner says that if a person
                          sees an Angel, he or she is going to think it is "GOD" for lack of
                          understanding of the hierarchies and who they are.

                          PLEASE don't take this the wrong way - with what I am about to say, I really
                          don't mean to criticize in any way. You told me that you have been reading
                          Steiner for years and I am sure that you have. But you might want to take some
                          time with his lectures on the Gospels and really sort out some of his work on
                          the whole incarnation and OT/ NT transition. I really feel in some of your
                          questions and responses that you are "mixing" up some basic ideas and that some of
                          the confusion that is arising in trying to make sense of things like the
                          relationship of Christianity to Islam starts with mixing up some concepts in
                          Steiner's Christology.

                          Have you had any contact, written or in person with the Christian Community.
                          Many Christian Community priests have written very beautiful and clear
                          descriptions of this Christology and what is really a new way of reading the Gospels
                          and understanding both the Old and New Testaments.

                          Well, there is so much to explore in Steiner's work, I think maybe we all
                          need to be Initiates just to be able to figure out where to begin!

                          :  ) Christine


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                        • Daniel Hindes
                          I found some interesting articles comparing Allah to Jehova. They were written anonymously by someone calling themselves Fatima and posted on a weblog at
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 30, 2003
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                            I found some interesting articles comparing Allah to Jehova. They were
                            written anonymously by someone calling themselves "Fatima" and posted on a
                            weblog at http://www.secularislam.net The first essay she posted on March
                            4th, 2003, "The Distance of Allah from His Creatures". This was followed on
                            June 2nd, 2003 by "Bible vs. Qur'an: Part 1 Abraham Bargains with God".
                            While I can take no stance on the subject (I really lack the expertice) I
                            found them quite interesting, and perhaps relavant to our discussion. I also
                            found interesting the fact that the arguements are supported with extensive
                            quotes from the source documents. Our discussion of Islam here so far has
                            mostly been characterized by generous generalizations drawn from the
                            somewhat superficial overviews of the subject. In this there is always the
                            danger that we impose too much of our own culture and attitudes to the
                            subject, perhaps working out of a desire to be "fair" to the subject. Were
                            this to happen, then the irony would be that we would be guilty of
                            ethnocentrism, imposing our values on Moslem culture, rather than letting it
                            speak for itself. Against the quotes from the Qur'an and the Bible below,
                            the similarities and differences between Allah and Jehova will hopefully
                            become clear.

                            Daniel Hindes

                            The Distance of Allah from His Creatures
                            The last post about free will vs. predestination made me think of the
                            differing distances between God and His creatures in Judaism, Christianity
                            and Islam. This subject has been bothering me for a long time. I read the
                            Bible and I feel as though God is close, wanting us to love Him; I read the
                            Qur'an and feel that Allah is much more distant, wanting us to submit to
                            Him. No wonder Sufi mysticism, with its emphasis on love of Allah and
                            closeness, even unity, with Him, has been so widespread in the Islamic
                            world.

                            Allah seems more distant in Islam than in Judaism and Christianity; there is
                            more of an emphasis on His might and His power, His inapproachability, the
                            fact that He has no need of His creation and says, "I have only created
                            Jinns and men, that they may serve Me." (51:56) Note the word serve, not
                            love. In Islam one submits to Allah; in Judaism (repeated in Christianity)
                            the Shema says, "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart
                            and with all your soul and with all your might," a concept totally lacking
                            in Islamic prayers. Men and women are slaves of Allah in Islam; in
                            Christianity they are children of God. Children are a source of love and
                            worry for their parents; slaves exist merely to serve. Allah lets it be
                            known in the Qur'an that if a people or nation rejects His message, He will
                            simply wipe them out and put another people in their place who will serve
                            Him better. Islam means submission; this does not leave much in the way of
                            personal interaction. Allah orders, you obey. No debating or bargaining,
                            like when Abraham got God down from fifty to ten righteous people to save
                            Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction. Moses speaks directly with God; Allah
                            communicates with Muhammad via the angel Gabriel, since "it is not fitting
                            for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from
                            behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's
                            permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise." (42:51)

                            The Qur'an mentions that Allah is closer to man than his jugular vein
                            (50:16), and Allah is constantly referred to as the Most Merciful and All
                            Forgiving, but I have to say that I don't feel much warmth in the
                            relationship. Allah is usually angry with man for constantly disobeying Him
                            and constantly mentions how those who disobey and disbelieve will burn in
                            Hell (quite graphically, too.) The portrayal of Paradise is mostly a picture
                            of earthly delights such as flowing rivers, green gardens, cool fountains,
                            cushions, green garments, fruits, cold drinks, and even "houris whom no man
                            nor jinn has touched," not a picture of blissful union with Allah. Of
                            course, these descriptions can easily be taken as metaphorical, but it is
                            interesting that Paradise is described in these terms. Not to mention the
                            fact that they generally have in fact been taken quite literally! The
                            promise of 72 virgins to martyrs killed in jihad is only the best known, but
                            there also have been Muslim scholars claiming that a man will be given the
                            sexual strength of a hundred men, or the claim that a man will find, each
                            time he has sex with a houri he will find her a virgin, or that houris
                            supposedly will have no periods and will never need to go to the bathroom.
                            The point is, this doesn't seem like a very spiritual haven, to say the
                            least, more like a heavenly Playboy Mansion (and what's in it for the girls
                            anyway???).

                            The heavy emphasis on rewards and punishments in the Qur'an and on fearing
                            Allah and what He will do to you if you don't repent and submit to His will
                            doesn't leave much room for really loving Him. The legalistic nature of
                            Islam and the intricacies, even the often anal nit-picking of shari'ah, only
                            serve to strengthen this idea of Allah as demanding slave-master, quick to
                            punish.

                            Hence the huge appeal of Sufism among Muslims, even some non-Muslims. Sufism
                            may have grown out of Hindu or Christian mysticism. At least it was
                            sufficiently exotic and suspect to be distrusted and sometimes even banned
                            by the scholars of religion. Some Sufis became infamous for flouting the
                            exoteric Law of Allah in favor of personal contact with the Divine, which of
                            course cut into the ulama's job. Other Sufis insisted that it was necessary
                            to follow the Law, but that was only the beginning of a journey to meet the
                            Face of Allah. In any case, it was the personal experience of Him, the
                            overpowering love for Him, that counted. This was necessary to bridge the
                            gap between the believer and Allah the All-Powerful, Almighty, who was to be
                            served by fastidious obedience to His law in all aspects of life.

                            There is just nothing similar to the writings of the Hebrew prophets of the
                            Bible in Islamic literature, whether Qur'an, hadiths, or sirah (lives of
                            Muhammad). These demonstrate a very close and affectionate relationship
                            between Israel and its God, God the loving, often chastising parent who
                            nevertheless mourned over His people and promised them redemption. There is
                            nothing like Isaiah's, "When Israel was a child I loved him; out of Egypt I
                            called my son," or "Come now, let us reason together," (which would suggest
                            a level of closeness and intimacy with God that would never be permitted in
                            Islam--Allah would never condescend to reason with His slaves). Instead
                            Allah of the Qur'an simply literally blows away those who refuse His message
                            and goes on to the next people.

                            I've already gone on much too long, but I wish there was some way to get
                            more of that intimacy into the Qur'an and less legalism and threats. I guess
                            in this I am influenced by Christianity, but I don't think it's too much to
                            ask for.

                            Bible vs Qur'an: Part 1 Abraham Bargains With God
                            In this entry, I will compare and contrast the Bible and Qur'anic stories of
                            one incident: when Abraham pleads for the lives of the people of Sodom and
                            Gomorrah. In both versions, messengers from God have been sent to him and
                            his wife Sarah to inform them of the birth of Isaac, and then Abraham is
                            told (by the messengers in the Qur'an, but by God himself in the Bible) that
                            the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be destroyed for their horrific sins.

                            Here is the passage from the Bible (NIV translation): Genesis 18:16-33, but
                            I will also include the first part of of the chapter because it is an
                            integral part of the story, and shows up in the Qur'anic version(s).

                            1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was
                            sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
                            2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he
                            hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the
                            ground.
                            3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your
                            servant by.
                            4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and
                            rest under this tree.
                            5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on
                            your way, now that you have come to your servant."
                            "Very well," they answered, "do as you say."
                            6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three
                            seahs of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread."
                            7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to
                            a servant, who hurried to prepare it.
                            8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared,
                            and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
                            9 "Where is your wife Sarah?" they asked him. "There, in the tent," he said.
                            10 Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next
                            year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the
                            entrance to the tent, which was behind him.
                            11 Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah
                            was past the age of childbearing.
                            12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my
                            master is old, will I now have this pleasure?"
                            13 Then the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I
                            really have a child, now that I am old?'
                            14 Is anything too hard for the LORD ? I will return to you at the appointed
                            time next year and Sarah will have a son."
                            15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, "I did not laugh." But he said,
                            "Yes, you did laugh."
                            16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham
                            walked along with them to see them on their way.
                            17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?
                            18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations
                            on earth will be blessed through him.
                            19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his
                            household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and
                            just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised
                            him."
                            20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great
                            and their sin so grievous
                            21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the
                            outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
                            22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing
                            before the LORD.
                            23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous
                            with the wicked?
                            24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really
                            sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous
                            people in it?
                            25 Far be it from you to do such a thing-to kill the righteous with the
                            wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you!
                            Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
                            26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I
                            will spare the whole place for their sake."
                            27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to
                            the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes,
                            28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you
                            destroy the whole city because of five people?"
                            "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
                            29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
                            He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
                            30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only
                            thirty can be found there?"
                            He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
                            31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what
                            if only twenty can be found there?"
                            He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
                            32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once
                            more. What if only ten can be found there?"
                            He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
                            33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham
                            returned home.

                            Now here is the first Qur'anic version, which, like most Biblical stories
                            told in the Qur'an, is very compressed. I should recount briefly how the
                            Qur'an tells the story of Lot (Lut in this translation). It holds that Lot
                            was the prophet of Sodom, who was sent to make the people stop their
                            despicable homosexual practices (Lot says, "Ye do commit lewdness, such as
                            no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach
                            men, and cut off the highway? And practice wickedness (even) in your
                            councils?" (Qur'an 29-28-29) When the people refused to change their ways,
                            Lot called for help on Allah, who sent him messengers to destroy the city
                            and save him and those who believed with him, but Lot's wife was evil, for
                            what reason we are not told, and she was apparently destroyed with the city,
                            though there are references to her as one who "lags behind," perhaps a relic
                            of the story of Lot's wife looking back and turned into a pillar of salt,
                            which is not explicitly told. There is also nothing of the tale of Lot's
                            incestuous antics with his daughters in Genesis 19:30-38.

                            Anyway, here, without further ado, is the story from the Qur'an (Surah Hud,
                            11:69-76; Yusuf Ali translation):

                            11:69 There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said,
                            "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted
                            calf.
                            11:70 But when he saw their hands went not towards the (meal), he felt some
                            mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We
                            have been sent against the people of Lut."
                            11:71 And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But we gave her
                            glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.
                            11:72 She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old
                            woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful
                            thing!"
                            11:73 They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and
                            His blessings on you, O ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of
                            all praise, full of all glory!"
                            11:74 When fear had passed from (the mind of) Abraham and the glad tidings
                            had reached him, he began to plead with Us for Lut's people.
                            11:75 For Abraham was, without doubt, forbearing (of faults), compassionate,
                            and given to look to Allah.
                            11:76 O Abraham! Seek not this. The decree of thy Lord hath gone forth: for
                            them there cometh a penalty that cannot be turned back!

                            Another, somewhat different, version appears in Surah 29, Al-Ankabut, verses
                            31-35 (it is very, very common for the same story to be told multiple times
                            in the Qur'an, with some differences). This incorporates the destruction
                            itself:

                            29:31 When Our Messengers came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We
                            are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are
                            (addicted to) crime."
                            29:32 He said: "But there is Lut there." They said: "Well do we know who is
                            there : we will certainly save him and his following, except his wife: she
                            is of those who lag behind!"
                            29:33 And when Our Messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account,
                            and felt himself powerless (to protect) them, but they said: "Fear thou not,
                            nor grieve: we are (here) to save thee and thy following, except thy wife:
                            she is of those who lag behind.
                            29:34 "For we are going to bring down on the people of this township a
                            Punishment from heaven, because they have been wickedly rebellious."
                            29:35 And We have left thereof an evident Sign, for any people who (care to)
                            understand.

                            The arguing isn't mentioned, except in an oblique way in 29:32, where
                            Abraham shows concern for Lot.

                            This story is also told in a somewhat different way in Surah 51,
                            Ad-Dhariyat, verses 24-37 (it is very, very common for the same story to be
                            told multiple times in the Qur'an, with some differences):

                            51:24 Has the story reached thee, of the honoured guests of Abraham?
                            51:25 Behold, they entered his presence, and said: "Peace!" He said,
                            "Peace!" (and thought, "These seem) unusual people."
                            51:26 Then he turned quickly to his household, brought out a fatted calf,
                            51:27 And placed it before them. He said, "Will ye not eat?"
                            51:28 (When they did not eat), He conceived a fear of them. They said, "Fear
                            not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge.
                            51:29 But his wife came forward (laughing) aloud: she smote her forehead and
                            said: "A barren old woman!"
                            51:30 They said, "Even so has thy Lord spoken: and He is full of Wisdom and
                            Knowledge."
                            51:31 (Abraham) said: "And what, O ye Messengers, is your errand (now)?"
                            51:32 They said, "We have been sent to a people (deep) in sin;-
                            51:33 "To bring on, on them, (a shower of) stones of clay (brimstone),
                            51:34 "Marked as from thy Lord for those who trespass beyond bounds."
                            51:35 Then We evacuated those of the Believers who were there,
                            51:36 But We found not there any just (Muslim) persons except in one house:
                            51:37 And We left there a Sign for such as fear the Grievous Penalty.

                            In this version, Abraham's arguing with Allah for the people of Sodom isn't
                            even mentioned, though it seems to be obliquely referred to in 51:36, about
                            not finding any just people except for Lot's family (or more accurately,
                            those who were in his home who believed in Lot's message).

                            You will notice that while Abraham is directly speaking to God and being
                            answered by him in the Bible story, the Qur'an simply says that Abraham was
                            "pleading with Us" for Lot's people. It doesn't say that he was directly
                            answered, or that any bargaining took place; it might have just been a
                            simple prayer for all we know. The words of Allah that follow that verse
                            ("For Abraham was, without doubt, forbearing (of faults), compassionate, and
                            given to look to Allah. O Abraham! Seek not this. The decree of thy Lord
                            hath gone forth: for them there cometh a penalty that cannot be turned
                            back!") seem to be more of a later commentary on Abraham's acts than actual
                            words addressed to him. Allah does not converse with mere mortals; instead
                            he sends an angel or a prophet or a vision (42:51: "It is not fitting for a
                            man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a
                            veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission,
                            what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.") In Genesis and Exodus,
                            God speaks personally with Abraham and Moses, and even addresses the
                            Israelites at Mt. Sinai, who shudder in fear and ask not to hear the voice
                            of God anymore, with which God acquiesces, but he does continue to speak
                            directly to Moses. By contrast Muhammad had to receive his sacred
                            scriptures, which are supposed to be the speech of Allah himself, through
                            the angel Gabriel.

                            More importantly, the whole concept of Abraham bargaining with God, the
                            spectacle of a mere man telling God Almighty that he is being unjust, is
                            fundamentally against the entire nature of Islam, which after all means
                            "submission" and whose most salient trait is total submission to the decrees
                            of Allah, instead of rebelling against them or trying to bargain out with
                            them. This is why Abraham's request for pity is followed by an "excuse" that
                            Abraham was very tender-hearted, perhaps too much so, and a reproach and an
                            insistence that Abraham must accept the decree of Allah for the destruction
                            of Lot's people. Abraham's kindness and tender-heartedness, which seem to be
                            exceed even that of Allah the All-Merciful, is also referred to in
                            9:113-114: "It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that
                            they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin,
                            after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire. And Abraham
                            prayed for his father's forgiveness only because of a promise he had made to
                            him. But when it became clear to him that he was an enemy to Allah, he
                            dissociated himself from him: for Abraham was most tender-hearted,
                            forbearing."

                            The figure of YHWH (God, the LORD) in the Pentateuch is very close to his
                            chosen people (the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the Israelites,
                            and so on), who is very much a part of the action and susceptible to many
                            quite human traits, such as being bargained with, "regretting" and
                            "repenting" (as in the case of the Flood and threatening to leave the
                            Israelites out in the desert for their disobedience; what this means has
                            been hotly debated by Jewish and Christian scholars). He takes a personal
                            interest in the Israelites, vowing to never abandon them and to admonish
                            them with punishments for the sake of correcting them. The figure of Allah
                            in the Qur'an is much more distant, one who will utterly destroy a people
                            that have rejected his message without a second though, and replace them
                            with a new people, who will be destroyed in their turn if they don't
                            believe, the Qur'an warns. By contrast, God as portrayed in the Prophetic
                            books of the Bible feels a great deal of sorrow about how his people Israel
                            have turned their backs on him and that he has to punish them for their
                            misdeeds, and with the promise that they will eventually be redeemed, that
                            he will always be there waiting for their repentance. In the Qur'an, they
                            would have just been wiped out and that would be that. (44:29: "And neither
                            heaven nor earth shed a tear over them: nor were they given a respite.") In
                            the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures; Tanakh) Israel is God's son (Hosea
                            11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my
                            son."). In the New Testament, humans are the children of God (Romans 8:16:
                            "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.");
                            in the Qur'an they are the slaves of Allah (51:56: "I have only created
                            Jinns and men that they may serve Me."). In the Bible are many references to
                            loving God (Deuteronomy 6:4-5: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD
                            is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul
                            and with all your strength."--the opening of the Jewish Shema or profession
                            of faith); in the Qur'an are constant references to serving Allah (20:14:
                            "Verily, I am Allah: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and
                            establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise." 29:56: "O My slaves who
                            believe! truly spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me!")

                            This topic is also discussed in the essay I wrote called "The Distance of
                            Allah from His Creatures," and I find it a fascinating topic. It really
                            throws into relief one of the major differences between Islam and Judaism
                            and Christianity.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "dottie zold" <dottie_z@...>
                            To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 10:42 PM
                            Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: hello - Islam


                            > Tarjei wrote:
                            > We've already been through this monotheism bit, but even as such,
                            > the "one
                            > > God" we're talking about htere is not identical with the God
                            > described by
                            > > RS, who was previously quoted:
                            >
                            > Hey Dear Tarjei,
                            >
                            > I'm going to the Imam; in a veil:) The great thing about this
                            > internet communication reality is that we get to interact and be
                            > inspired to look at things we may not have naturally.
                            >
                            > I read your quotes to my friend Markram and he agreed these were
                            > things said. He says how there are also many words that speak to the
                            > opposite of what these specific quotes are saying. Contradictions all
                            > over the place and his particular group looks to those particular
                            > quotes for understanding while fundies tend to ignore these aspects
                            > and go with the most outrageous of understandings.
                            >
                            > The greatest thing is that I get to go to the Imam and we are going
                            > to ask about these particular questions and quotes you have supplied.
                            >
                            > As a gnostic minded christian I will say I as well go along with the
                            > idea that the OT speaks to a tyrant god similar to the god of the
                            > muslims. AND this tyrant god is the foundation of Christianity. So,
                            > the question is if the OT god is the same Islam god? I believe they
                            > are. I also had to come to an understanding, which was really hard
                            > for me, for I was convinced that the God we were calling Father God
                            > was a false Father, was really the one and same Father God of the NT:
                            > it was the Son that was the new salvation and inspiration for the
                            > Father to not be so mean minded. So, here I am with Islam looking at
                            > the same questions as arose for me when I argued this point on the
                            > Ark. How could God say, 'kill all those people, leave no women men or
                            > children alive' and so forth, was what kept me from reading the OT my
                            > whole life till just two years ago. How do we reconcile these things?
                            >
                            > So, here you are calling this a different God and I have to disagree.
                            > But anyway we shall look inside and see what is going on. I will tell
                            > you that since my reading of this Muhammed book I feel a 'pull' of
                            > sorts to look to God more often that I usually do. I mean my heart is
                            > in a state of prayer most of the time but this 'pull' I am
                            > experiencing is a definite 'feeling' towards prayer.
                            >
                            > All my best,
                            >
                            > Dottie
                          • Tarjei Straume
                            Great post, Daniel! Thanks! Here are a few comments to some of it: ... Islam is being agressively marketed the throughout whole world, including the West, with
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 30, 2003
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                              Great post, Daniel! Thanks!

                              Here are a few comments to some of it:

                              At 17:32 30.11.2003, Daniel wrote:

                              >Our discussion of Islam here so far has mostly been characterized by
                              >generous generalizations drawn from the somewhat superficial overviews of
                              >the subject. In this there is always the danger that we impose too much of
                              >our own culture and attitudes to the subject, perhaps working out of a
                              >desire to be "fair" to the subject. Were this to happen, then the irony
                              >would be that we would be guilty of ethnocentrism, imposing our values on
                              >Moslem culture, rather than letting it speak for itself.

                              Islam is being agressively marketed the throughout whole world, including
                              the West, with the expressed intention of winning humanity for Islam
                              through proselytizing. With this in mind, it is unfair for Islam to use
                              "ethnicity" in its defence in order to seek immunity against Western
                              criticism. They even cry racism if need be. Moslem culture is already part
                              and parcel of Western culture, which it seeks to dominate. For this reason,
                              it is only fair and square to analyze it in the light of Western thinking
                              and Western traditions.

                              >Allah seems more distant in Islam than in Judaism and Christianity; there
                              >is more of an emphasis on His might and His power, His inapproachability,
                              >the fact that He has no need of His creation and says, "I have only
                              >created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me." (51:56) Note the word
                              >serve, not love.

                              Although there are some clear similarities and parallels between Judaism
                              and Islam, some of which are counter-productive (especially when we look at
                              orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Muslims), there are also some striking
                              differences. Jewish culture is so much a part of the West that in some ways
                              it's the very backbone of the West. "Jewish" thinking is much more similar
                              to Christian thinking than is Muslim thinking. Judaism does not seek to
                              convert new members and win the world for Jewry. Although a Jew who adopts
                              another religion or world view is not considered a Jew proper by the
                              orthodox, Jews, as the term is commonly understood today, are atheists
                              (Issac Asimov), Christians (Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen), Buddhists (Allan
                              Ginsburg), agnostics (Albert Einstein), Anthroposophists, Theosophists and
                              so on. They have a relaxed relationship to their heritage. There is
                              pressure in some circles to preserve the Jewish faith at all costs, but no
                              persecution of those who leave it, and certainly no death penalty, like in
                              Islam.

                              For this reason, it is no wonder that Allah comes across as more
                              inapproachable and impersonal than Jehovah, and with more emphasis on his
                              might and power.

                              >In Islam one submits to Allah; in Judaism (repeated in Christianity) the
                              >Shema says, "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and
                              >with all your soul and with all your might," a concept totally lacking in
                              >Islamic prayers. Men and women are slaves of Allah in Islam; in
                              >Christianity they are children of God. Children are a source of love and
                              >worry for their parents; slaves exist merely to serve. Allah lets it be
                              >known in the Qur'an that if a people or nation rejects His message, He
                              >will simply wipe them out and put another people in their place who will
                              >serve Him better. Islam means submission; this does not leave much in the
                              >way of personal interaction. Allah orders, you obey. No debating or
                              >bargaining, like when Abraham got God down from fifty to ten righteous
                              >people to save Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction. Moses speaks directly
                              >with God; Allah communicates with Muhammad via the angel Gabriel, since
                              >"it is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by
                              >inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to
                              >reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High,
                              >Most Wise." (42:51)

                              You've hit the nail on the head. And at the risk of appearing ethnocentric,
                              I dare say that Islam seems most incompatible with the individual freedom
                              proposed in the PoF.

                              I also have a question: There are Roman Catholic Anthroposophists, Buddhist
                              Anthroposophists, Australian Aborigine Anthroposophists and so on. (And I'm
                              talking about AS members here too.) Are there any Muslim Anthroposophists?
                              If so, we need one right here at Anthroposophy Tomorrow. Please pass the
                              request.

                              Cheers,


                              Tarjei
                              http://uncletaz.com/
                            • Tarjei Straume
                              (another repost - sorry if it arrives twice) Great post, Daniel! Thanks! Here are a few comments to some of it: ... Islam is being agressively marketed the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 30, 2003
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                                (another repost - sorry if it arrives twice)

                                Great post, Daniel! Thanks!

                                Here are a few comments to some of it:

                                At 17:32 30.11.2003, Daniel wrote:

                                >Our discussion of Islam here so far has mostly been characterized by
                                >generous generalizations drawn from the somewhat superficial overviews of
                                >the subject. In this there is always the danger that we impose too much of
                                >our own culture and attitudes to the subject, perhaps working out of a
                                >desire to be "fair" to the subject. Were this to happen, then the irony
                                >would be that we would be guilty of ethnocentrism, imposing our values on
                                >Moslem culture, rather than letting it speak for itself.

                                Islam is being agressively marketed the throughout whole world, including
                                the West, with the expressed intention of winning humanity for Islam
                                through proselytizing. With this in mind, it is unfair for Islam to use
                                "ethnicity" in its defence in order to seek immunity against Western
                                criticism. They even cry racism if need be. Moslem culture is already part
                                and parcel of Western culture, which it seeks to dominate. For this reason,
                                it is only fair and square to analyze it in the light of Western thinking
                                and Western traditions.

                                >Allah seems more distant in Islam than in Judaism and Christianity; there
                                >is more of an emphasis on His might and His power, His inapproachability,
                                >the fact that He has no need of His creation and says, "I have only
                                >created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me." (51:56) Note the word
                                >serve, not love.

                                Although there are some clear similarities and parallels between Judaism
                                and Islam, some of which are counter-productive (especially when we look at
                                orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Muslims), there are also some striking
                                differences. Jewish culture is so much a part of the West that in some ways
                                it's the very backbone of the West. "Jewish" thinking is much more similar
                                to Christian thinking than is Muslim thinking. Judaism does not seek to
                                convert new members and win the world for Jewry. Although a Jew who adopts
                                another religion or world view is not considered a Jew proper by the
                                orthodox, Jews, as the term is commonly understood today, are atheists
                                (Issac Asimov), Christians (Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen), Buddhists (Allan
                                Ginsburg), agnostics (Albert Einstein), Anthroposophists, Theosophists and
                                so on. They have a relaxed relationship to their heritage. There is
                                pressure in some circles to preserve the Jewish faith at all costs, but no
                                persecution of those who leave it, and certainly no death penalty, like in
                                Islam.

                                For this reason, it is no wonder that Allah comes across as more
                                inapproachable and impersonal than Jehovah, and with more emphasis on his
                                might and power.

                                >In Islam one submits to Allah; in Judaism (repeated in Christianity) the
                                >Shema says, "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and
                                >with all your soul and with all your might," a concept totally lacking in
                                >Islamic prayers. Men and women are slaves of Allah in Islam; in
                                >Christianity they are children of God. Children are a source of love and
                                >worry for their parents; slaves exist merely to serve. Allah lets it be
                                >known in the Qur'an that if a people or nation rejects His message, He
                                >will simply wipe them out and put another people in their place who will
                                >serve Him better. Islam means submission; this does not leave much in the
                                >way of personal interaction. Allah orders, you obey. No debating or
                                >bargaining, like when Abraham got God down from fifty to ten righteous
                                >people to save Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction. Moses speaks directly
                                >with God; Allah communicates with Muhammad via the angel Gabriel, since
                                >"it is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by
                                >inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to
                                >reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High,
                                >Most Wise." (42:51)

                                You've hit the nail on the head. And at the risk of appearing ethnocentric,
                                I dare say that Islam seems most incompatible with the individual freedom
                                proposed in the PoF.

                                I also have a question: There are Roman Catholic Anthroposophists, Buddhist
                                Anthroposophists, Australian Aborigine Anthroposophists and so on. (And I'm
                                talking about AS members here too.) Are there any Muslim Anthroposophists?
                                If so, we need one right here at Anthroposophy Tomorrow. Please pass the
                                request.

                                Cheers,

                                Tarjei
                                http://uncletaz.com/
                              • golden3000997@cs.com
                                Anyone know of any place where RS actually says WHO ALLAH is?? If he can illumine the Being of Jehovah, surely he could do the same with ALLAH. I haven t found
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 30, 2003
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                                  Anyone know of any place where RS actually says WHO ALLAH is?? If he can
                                  illumine the Being of Jehovah, surely he could do the same with ALLAH. I haven't
                                  found it yet.

                                  OK - just my own quirky idea - please don't think I can defend this in any
                                  way, but *** What If **** Allah were Jehovah who felt left out, discarded and
                                  pissed off once the mission of the Hebrew people was fulfilled????? I have
                                  absolutely no idea why that comes into my head!!! Anybody can say definitely why
                                  not or is there some kind of possiblity here?

                                  Nothing like pouring gas on the fire, eh? : )
                                • Daniel Hindes
                                  Tarje, I m glad that you found my posting helpful. In the interest of clarity, the second two sections you quote and attribute to me were actually written by
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 30, 2003
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                                    Tarje,
                                    I'm glad that you found my posting helpful. In the interest of clarity, the
                                    second two sections you quote and attribute to me were actually written by
                                    one anonymous "Fatima" (and I will state for the record that I am not
                                    "Fatima") and posted on http://www.secularislam.net Credit where credit is
                                    due...

                                    Daniel Hindes

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Tarjei Straume" <anthrouncle@...>
                                    To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 8:15 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: hello - Islam


                                    > (another repost - sorry if it arrives twice)
                                    >
                                    > Great post, Daniel! Thanks!
                                    >
                                    > Here are a few comments to some of it:
                                    >
                                    > At 17:32 30.11.2003, Daniel wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >Our discussion of Islam here so far has mostly been characterized by
                                    > >generous generalizations drawn from the somewhat superficial overviews of
                                    > >the subject. In this there is always the danger that we impose too much
                                    of
                                    > >our own culture and attitudes to the subject, perhaps working out of a
                                    > >desire to be "fair" to the subject. Were this to happen, then the irony
                                    > >would be that we would be guilty of ethnocentrism, imposing our values on
                                    > >Moslem culture, rather than letting it speak for itself.
                                    >
                                    > Islam is being agressively marketed the throughout whole world, including
                                    > the West, with the expressed intention of winning humanity for Islam
                                    > through proselytizing. With this in mind, it is unfair for Islam to use
                                    > "ethnicity" in its defence in order to seek immunity against Western
                                    > criticism. They even cry racism if need be. Moslem culture is already part
                                    > and parcel of Western culture, which it seeks to dominate. For this
                                    reason,
                                    > it is only fair and square to analyze it in the light of Western thinking
                                    > and Western traditions.
                                    >
                                    > >Allah seems more distant in Islam than in Judaism and Christianity; there
                                    > >is more of an emphasis on His might and His power, His inapproachability,
                                    > >the fact that He has no need of His creation and says, "I have only
                                    > >created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me." (51:56) Note the word
                                    > >serve, not love.
                                    >
                                    > Although there are some clear similarities and parallels between Judaism
                                    > and Islam, some of which are counter-productive (especially when we look
                                    at
                                    > orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Muslims), there are also some striking
                                    > differences. Jewish culture is so much a part of the West that in some
                                    ways
                                    > it's the very backbone of the West. "Jewish" thinking is much more similar
                                    > to Christian thinking than is Muslim thinking. Judaism does not seek to
                                    > convert new members and win the world for Jewry. Although a Jew who adopts
                                    > another religion or world view is not considered a Jew proper by the
                                    > orthodox, Jews, as the term is commonly understood today, are atheists
                                    > (Issac Asimov), Christians (Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen), Buddhists (Allan
                                    > Ginsburg), agnostics (Albert Einstein), Anthroposophists, Theosophists and
                                    > so on. They have a relaxed relationship to their heritage. There is
                                    > pressure in some circles to preserve the Jewish faith at all costs, but no
                                    > persecution of those who leave it, and certainly no death penalty, like in
                                    > Islam.
                                    >
                                    > For this reason, it is no wonder that Allah comes across as more
                                    > inapproachable and impersonal than Jehovah, and with more emphasis on his
                                    > might and power.
                                    >
                                    > >In Islam one submits to Allah; in Judaism (repeated in Christianity) the
                                    > >Shema says, "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and
                                    > >with all your soul and with all your might," a concept totally lacking in
                                    > >Islamic prayers. Men and women are slaves of Allah in Islam; in
                                    > >Christianity they are children of God. Children are a source of love and
                                    > >worry for their parents; slaves exist merely to serve. Allah lets it be
                                    > >known in the Qur'an that if a people or nation rejects His message, He
                                    > >will simply wipe them out and put another people in their place who will
                                    > >serve Him better. Islam means submission; this does not leave much in the
                                    > >way of personal interaction. Allah orders, you obey. No debating or
                                    > >bargaining, like when Abraham got God down from fifty to ten righteous
                                    > >people to save Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction. Moses speaks directly
                                    > >with God; Allah communicates with Muhammad via the angel Gabriel, since
                                    > >"it is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by
                                    > >inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to
                                    > >reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High,
                                    > >Most Wise." (42:51)
                                    >
                                    > You've hit the nail on the head. And at the risk of appearing
                                    ethnocentric,
                                    > I dare say that Islam seems most incompatible with the individual freedom
                                    > proposed in the PoF.
                                    >
                                    > I also have a question: There are Roman Catholic Anthroposophists,
                                    Buddhist
                                    > Anthroposophists, Australian Aborigine Anthroposophists and so on. (And
                                    I'm
                                    > talking about AS members here too.) Are there any Muslim Anthroposophists?
                                    > If so, we need one right here at Anthroposophy Tomorrow. Please pass the
                                    > request.
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    >
                                    > Tarjei
                                    > http://uncletaz.com/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > anthroposophy_tomorrow-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Tarjei Straume
                                    ... That does not make sense to me, because the god of the Muslims denies the divinity of the Christ, God s only begotten Son. Jesus is depicted as a great
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 1, 2003
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                                      At 04:42 30.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

                                      >As a gnostic minded christian I will say I as well go along with the idea
                                      >that the OT speaks to a tyrant god similar to the god of the muslims. AND
                                      >this tyrant god is the foundation of Christianity. So, the question is if
                                      >the OT god is the same Islam god?

                                      That does not make sense to me, because the god of the Muslims denies the
                                      divinity of the Christ, "God's only begotten Son." Jesus is depicted as a
                                      great prophet just like all other wise and great men and prophets, but the
                                      idea that Allah should have a son is blasphemous according to Muslims. For
                                      that reason, I don't see how Yahve, who promises the coming of Christ in
                                      the OT, can possibly be the same god as Allah.

                                      Whether we think of these two gods in the classical mythological sense as
                                      flawed, superhuman characters, or in the psychological-philosophical sense
                                      as pure concepts, they remain strikingly dissimilar.

                                      Cheers,


                                      Tarjei
                                      http://uncletaz.com/
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