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The Divine Feminine

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  • golden3000997@cs.com
    Dear Dottie, We are still not seeing eye to eye (one of us must be from Iowa!) but that s OK. However, I want to make a few things clear in the following
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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      Dear Dottie,

      We are still not seeing eye to eye (one of us must be from Iowa!) but that's
      OK. However, I want to make a few things clear in the following segment of our
      discussion.


      Christine
      > Anyway, this to illustrate the male/female unity of
      > God and the manifestation
      > of God as male and female on the physical plane. Why
      > then interpret the
      > Trinity as God the Father, God the Son (Sun -
      > shouldn't really be male in a strict
      > sense, but another topic) and God the Holy Spirit
      > and interpret this as a
      > "He"? It is the Holy Spirit which INCARNATES the
      > LOGOS or Sun of God, and through
      > whom did He incarnate in the physical? And who was
      > specifically present in the
      > upper room at Pentecost with the disciples? I have
      > some pictures somewhere
      > around here of Mary in the middle of the circle as
      > they receive the flame above
      > their heads - most rosary pictures have it that way.
      > Again, SHE brings it down
      > into them. SHE IS the manifestation of the Divine
      > Female. And not just ONE
      > Mary - but THREE Marys.


      Dottie

      I am wondering if you see Magdalene sitting to the
      left of Jesus at the last Supper? Do you see her in
      the room? Have you ever seen the painting, don't know
      whose it is, where the finger of God reaches out and
      touches the finger of man? Up until this year I
      thought that was the whole painted picture. It is not.
      Under the bridge of a place I drive past is a mural of
      the whole picture or at least what I can feel is the
      whole picture: God with his arms enfolding a woman and
      a child. Incredible.

      There is a book called Crone, don't recall the author
      at the moment, that really allowed me to move further
      on my search for the Marys' mystery. It was there that
      I was able to connect the symbolism of the three
      Marys. And they can be found throughout history of the
      OT as well as Hindu/Buddist/Sumerian texts.

      Christine
      But I see Mary Magdalene as the third in the
      > Female Trinity of God.


      ******** Please make note that I am not saying that MARY MAGDELENE is the
      female element in the Trinity. I am saying that the Holy Spirit is in its
      essence, the Divine Female and that it Manifests as a feminine trinity - Eva Maria,
      the soul force of the Heart - Maria Sophia, the soul force of the Head - Maria
      Magdelena, the soul force of the Will. The MARY in the upper room, actually
      was an incarnation of all three. The physical body of the EVA Maria was already
      bearing the Ego of the Maria Sophia within her (see The Gospel of St. Luke -
      Rudolf Steiner) Even though Mary Magdelene was in the body still, supposedly, I
      personally feel that her Ego was somehow melded with the other two, although
      I may not be able to justify this with something in writing. Through the power
      of the MARY as TRINITY of the Female Divine, the Holy Spirit (The Comforter)
      was incarnated in human kind for all eternity. I believe that Steiner did say
      once that the mysteries of the feminine would be explored by someone who would
      come after him, that it wasn't necessarily his task. I'll try to find that
      reference.

      Of course, there have been "pre-Christian" manifestations of the Female
      Divine, just as there were "pre-Christian" manifestations of the Christ as Sun God.
      Please make clear note - I am saying MANIFESTATION - NOT INCARNATION!!! There
      have never been and never will be any other INCARNATIONs of the Christ.

      (sorry for the caps, I am not shouting, but when I "bold" or italic, it
      doesn't come through and I want to emphasis. My browser does not support HTML and I
      can't write properly.


      Dottie

      I see her there as well. For me she is the Daughter
      Voice of God. Never really thought of it being the
      third but it makes sense if we look at mother father
      child.

      Christine
      > She was the one who first saw the Risen Christ.
      > There were three Marys
      > accounted for at the foot of the cross, also.


      ALSO - Dottie you said this:

      But what does that really mean? See for me, my work is
      leading me to find the Father and I think the Father
      is the physical reality and that is why we are all
      male and female. I think that is what Magdalene meant
      when she said

      'he is going to make males of us all'(
      meaning Christ)...

      to me that means they are all going
      to become Suns or rayers of God. I believe the female
      part of us is the spirit. Therefore we, as human
      beings are all male and female.

      Please tell me WHERE she says that!!! Is it in the BIBLE?? If so, Please give
      me the chapter and verse - I really want to see it for myself. Doesn't ring a
      bell at all. In fact, I don't recall any quotes of her at all except when she
      meets The Risen Christ and asks him where he put her teacher (rabbi).

      This is really, really important to me, so please find me that quote. Thank
      you!

      : ) Christine
    • dottie zold
      ... Dear Christine, Yes we are. I just don t express my understandings very well. They ALL line up with what you have found. In the Nag Hammadi Library there
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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        --- golden3000997@... wrote:
        > Dear Dottie,
        >
        > We are still not seeing eye to eye (one of us must
        > be from Iowa!) but that's
        > OK. However, I want to make a few things clear in
        > the following segment of our
        > discussion.
        >


        Dear Christine,

        Yes we are. I just don't express my understandings
        very well. They ALL line up with what you have found.

        In the Nag Hammadi Library there is a book called
        Mary. You shall find it there. As well it is quite
        interesting to read Philip and the Voice of Thunder.

        I have a few other thoughts I am working on, well not
        right now, however they tend to freak people out or
        whatever...anyway I think the fourth gospel is
        inspired by Magdalene and I believe it was SHE who was
        raised under the cover of Lazarus, which means the one
        whom God helps.

        You have such a greater way of expressin than I. I
        don't know why I can not pull it down into the written
        word. It stays within me and comes out pretty jumbled.
        I remember another list mate who said that I am stuck
        in one of the three levels that Dr. STeiner states we
        come with in our soul. I seem not to be able, and
        truly I think he was right, that there seems to be NO
        WAY I can overcome this way of being. I have come to
        see that my mind just does not connect things in an
        intellectual manner. No matter how much study I think.
        I would almost have to rewire my brain it seems.

        You are right on Christine. Do you find many people
        who agree with you? Also I am wondering if you can
        share, because I think it is important to lay the
        groundwork for others, how you came upon such a thing.
        Unless it is too personal however, I have to say it is
        really important just as Steiners work is for this to
        throw a light on this path.

        Love to you always,

        Dottie



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      • golden3000997@cs.com
        Hi Dottie! Do you recognize my cheeky from Iowa dig? It s from the Music Man - line about two Iowans standing nose to nose for a week and never see eye to
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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          Hi Dottie!

          Do you recognize my cheeky "from Iowa" dig? It's from the "Music Man" - line
          about two Iowans standing nose to nose for a week and "never see eye to eye."
          I was trying to make a funny! As Red Skelton (my personal saint) once or twice
          said, "Don't take life too seriously - none of us are getting out of it
          alive." : )

          We do need to lighten up a little bit now and then.

          I have been madly researching in the Bible for that line by Mary Magdalene -
          so it's in the Nag Hammadi??? I'll start looking there.

          There are levels and levels to understanding all of this. Thank you for the
          compliments, but your understanding is just fine. As someone said in another
          post, on another Steiner group, it is so different to try to communicate through
          this medium than to study something in person with a group. There is so much
          communication that goes on at other levels. On the other hand, by having to
          express ourselves in writing, we might make a few ideas more clear than we had
          expressed before.

          I totally agree that we need to act out of love always if we have the
          strength to do so. One on one interaction involves the meeting of egos and that is
          far beyond group, religious or nationalistic identities. Communication is
          essential and bridges must be built. But just as there are Angels and then
          Archangels and Archai, so there are individuals and then larger groups and movements
          and then Spirits of the Time which can and do sweep up individuals in their
          path. The trick I think, is to try to perceive these larger entities, the good and
          the bad and the truth about them.

          What I was saying when I sounded so "fire and brimstone" about making choices
          is that we, as individuals may find ourselves in the not very distant future
          being called upon to make choices that align us with one or more of these
          larger entities. What I meant was that, even if we find ourselves so caught up
          that we must succumb to their demands (microchips, etc) that we need to still be
          able to know inside who and what we are dealing with, not go into it all
          blindly. We may not be able to resist physically, but we can resist spiritually.
          Many have been put into prison in the past for telling the truth about a
          government or religion and have remained free inside themselves. Yes, I believe the
          time is at hand when many lightworkers and truth tellers will go there again,
          possibly to suffer and die. But they, including perhaps us, must stay free
          inside. We must never surrender the truth. We must never give evil the name of
          good.

          And yes, Frank, if you are reading this - I mean the Waldorf movement, too.
          The seeds of human freedom which it seeks to plant, nurture and guard in each
          human child are very dangerous to the forces in the world today. As long as it
          remains quiet and acquiescent to the state, it will be allowed to continue.
          But the state, contrary to popular belief, is not stupid. They know very well
          who we are. And now, the American movement has made the unbelievably stupid
          mistake of getting into bed with the public (state) school system! Let's just go
          ahead and marry the executioner, why don't we?? PLANS is absolutely right about
          their position that Waldorf Education has no place in the public school
          system and that Waldorf educators should be honest and upfront with all parents
          about the Anthroposophy and Christianity that lives within it. I am not concerned
          with the forum that is running on it about whether or not RS was connected
          with the Nazis, that's another subject entirely. But Waldorf education in state
          schools has two things wrong with it - Waldorf teachers are inherently limited
          in what they can say and do, even though they may have more freedom in the
          classroom than other public school teachers and Waldorf education has been put
          under the gaze of the power system at large. It's not that what we do in a
          Waldorf classroom is or should be secret - far from it. But it should be done in
          total freedom and independence from any other controlling factor. And only
          those parents and families who understand it honestly and as fully as possible
          should participate. Sometimes withholding truth can be as bad as a direct lie.
          That's what I meant, Frank.

          I have a manuscript which I will either type or try to scan that addresses
          the revolutionary aspect of Waldorf Education. I intend to send it to you in
          entirety. In the meantime, I will say that the bit about the Threefold Social
          Order being on the table at Versailles was told to me and six other teacher
          trainees in 1977-78 by Rene Querido. If it's not true, I want to know why he told
          us. The manuscript that I am working on supports it, but does not state it
          exactly. I will keep researching. If you can, please tell me why you said that it
          never happened.

          One more thing about public education, and that is money. I think many people
          only consider it as one little neighborhood school with well intentioned
          people doing the best they can for a city's children. That is true, of course, but
          there is much more to it. Public education means lots and lots of money for
          those in power. You think there's not enough money for schools today? Children
          are hard pressed to have the essentials? Last year, I think, here in Miami,
          the head of the school board was fired for corruption and walked away with a
          $2,000,000.00+ severance package!!! And in the States, many if not all states run
          a lottery that pulls in billions and billions. Here in Florida it was
          packaged to the public as a means expressly to help improve the schools. Promises
          were made before the legislation was passed promising that it would be devoted to
          public education in addition to tax funding and not instead. Well, tax money
          for education has been reduced and lottery money used instead. But there is
          still no evidence of money being used in the quantities currently generated by
          the lottery. I have never seen any accounting of where that money goes. I would
          like to see it on a yearly basis, with a dollar by dollar breakdown. In fact,
          I'm going to see if I can find it on the Net. Florida has a lousy report
          card. 40 out of 50 ain't bad, I guess - but where does the money go??????????????

          States Ranked: Smartest to Dumbest
          The smartest state in the union is Massachusetts.
          The dumbest, for the second consecutive year, is New Mexico.
          These are the findings of the Education State Rankings, a survey by Morgan
          Quitno Press of the public school systems in all 50 states. States were graded
          on a variety of factors based on how they compare to the national average.
          These included such positive attributes as per-pupil expenditures, public high
          school graduation rates, average class size, student reading and math
          proficiency, and pupil-teacher ratios. States received negative points for high drop-out
          rates and physical violence.

          How does YOUR state rank?
          1. Massachusetts
          2. Vermont
          3. Connecticut
          4. Montana
          5. New Jersey
          6. Maine
          7. Pennsylvania
          8. (tie) Wisconsin and Iowa
          10. New York
          11. Nebraska
          12. Minnesota
          13. Indiana
          14. Wyoming
          15. Kansas
          16. Rhode Island
          17. Virginia
          18. Maryland
          19. Delaware
          20. Michigan
          21. North Carolina
          22. Ohio
          23. Alaska
          24. North Dakota
          25. Utah
          26. New Hampshire
          27. Illinois
          28. Missouri
          29. West Virginia
          30. Idaho
          31. South Dakota
          32. Oregon
          33. Washington
          34. Texas
          35. Colorado
          36. Georgia
          37. Kentucky
          38. Arkansas
          39. Oklahoma
          40. Florida
          41. South Carolina
          42. Tennessee
          43. Hawaii
          44. California
          45. Arizona
          46. Alabama
          47. Louisiana
          48. Mississippi
          49. Nevada
          50. New Mexico
        • Frank Thomas Smith
          ... Also The Gospel of Thomas, verse 114: Simon Peter said to them, Make Mary (Magdalene) leave us, for females don t deserve life. Jesus said, Look, I will
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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            > In the Nag Hammadi Library there is a book called
            > Mary. You shall find it there. As well it is quite
            > interesting to read Philip and the Voice of Thunder.

            Also The Gospel of Thomas, verse 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary
            (Magdalene) leave us, for females don't deserve life."
            Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can
            become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes
            herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

            But don't worry too much, the meaning is ambiguous and most unclear, to say
            the least. It may have to do with being androgynous, or some kind of gnostic
            code
            Frank
          • golden3000997@cs.com
            Thanks Frank! Whoa, something good to chew on there! I have that somewhere on my shelves, I think. Maybe I can find it on the Net. Can t reconcile it with
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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              Thanks Frank!

              Whoa, something good to chew on there! I have that somewhere on my shelves, I
              think. Maybe I can find it on the Net. Can't reconcile it with other texts,
              though.

              Did you see my bit on public education? Still working on it for you, though.

              : ) Christine

              By the way, the company I work for here in Miami has a branch in Buenos
              Aires. Real belly of the beast stuff! Won't say what just now. I am still trying to
              figure it out. I have only been there 2 months.
            • Richard Distasi
              Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes herself male will enter
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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                "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can
                become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes
                herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
                 
                Just a stab in the dark here but this may be a reference to a possible transfiguration of the etheric body of Mary Magdalene. That is, her etheric body is male and that Christ heightens its awareness such that she was then to become the first person to perceive the Risen Etheric Christ.
                 
                rick distasi
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 12:33 PM
                Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Divine Feminine




                > In the Nag Hammadi Library there is a book called
                > Mary. You shall find it there. As well it is quite
                > interesting to read Philip and the Voice of Thunder.

                Also The Gospel of Thomas, verse 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary
                (Magdalene) leave us, for females don't deserve life."
                Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can
                become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes
                herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

                But don't worry too much, the meaning is ambiguous and most unclear, to say
                the least. It may have to do with being androgynous, or some kind of gnostic
                code
                Frank







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              • dottie zold
                Hey Rick, Where is this quote from? I hope its not the same one from the Nag Hammadi book of Mary. I am wondering if anyone knows if this book found of Mary is
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 8, 2003
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                  Hey Rick,

                  Where is this quote from? I hope its not the same one
                  from the Nag Hammadi book of Mary. I am wondering if
                  anyone knows if this book found of Mary is different
                  than the one found in the late 1800s? I just read
                  there was a book of Mary found during that time
                  period. Don't know the specifices though or the
                  validity of such a thing.

                  The Sufi women as well were called male but that was
                  in reference to Master.

                  I still don't understand the etheric things so much. I
                  can't seem to really really rap my mind around it.

                  Peace,=
                  Dottie

                  --- Richard Distasi <radistasi@...> wrote:
                  > "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that
                  > she too can
                  > become a living spirit resembling you males. For
                  > every femaile who makes
                  > herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

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                • Richard Distasi
                  Dottie, The quote that I posted of which you ask was posted by Frank Thomas Smith in an earlier message. That one sentence really got my attention. Here is
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                    Dottie,
                     
                    The quote that I posted of which you ask was posted by Frank Thomas Smith in an earlier message. That one sentence really got my attention. Here is what Frank posted:
                     
                    *********************************************************************************************
                     
                    Also The Gospel of Thomas, verse 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary
                    (Magdalene) leave us, for females don't deserve life."
                    Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too can
                    become a living spirit resembling you males. For every femaile who makes
                    herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
                     
                    **********************************************************************************************
                     
                    rick distasi
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 7:39 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Divine Feminine

                    Hey Rick,

                    Where is this quote from? I hope its not the same one
                    from the Nag Hammadi book of Mary. I am wondering if
                    anyone knows if this book found of Mary is different
                    than the one found in the late 1800s? I just read
                    there was a book of Mary found during that time
                    period. Don't know the specifices though or the
                    validity of such a thing.

                    The Sufi women as well were called male but that was
                    in reference to Master.

                    I still don't understand the etheric things so much. I
                    can't seem to really really rap my mind around it.

                    Peace,=
                    Dottie

                    --- Richard Distasi <radistasi@...> wrote:
                    > "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that
                    > she too can
                    > become a living spirit resembling you males. For
                    > every femaile who makes
                    > herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

                    __________________________________
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                  • Frank Thomas Smith
                    Dottie wrote: The Sufi women as well were called male but that was in reference to Master. FTS: That might very well be the explanation here as well, i.e,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                      Dottie wrote:
                      The Sufi women as well were called male but that was
                      in reference to Master.


                    • Frank Thomas Smith
                      ... too. ... each ... as it ... continue. ... well ... stupid ... just go ... about ... parents ... concerned ... state ... limited ... put ... done in ...
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                        Christine wrote:
                        > And yes, Frank, if you are reading this - I mean the Waldorf movement,
                        too.
                        > The seeds of human freedom which it seeks to plant, nurture and guard in
                        each
                        > human child are very dangerous to the forces in the world today. As long
                        as it
                        > remains quiet and acquiescent to the state, it will be allowed to
                        continue.
                        > But the state, contrary to popular belief, is not stupid. They know very
                        well
                        > who we are. And now, the American movement has made the unbelievably
                        stupid
                        > mistake of getting into bed with the public (state) school system! Let's
                        just go
                        > ahead and marry the executioner, why don't we?? PLANS is absolutely right
                        about
                        > their position that Waldorf Education has no place in the public school
                        > system and that Waldorf educators should be honest and upfront with all
                        parents
                        > about the Anthroposophy and Christianity that lives within it. I am not
                        concerned
                        > with the forum that is running on it about whether or not RS was connected
                        > with the Nazis, that's another subject entirely. But Waldorf education in
                        state
                        > schools has two things wrong with it - Waldorf teachers are inherently
                        limited
                        > in what they can say and do, even though they may have more freedom in the
                        > classroom than other public school teachers and Waldorf education has been
                        put
                        > under the gaze of the power system at large. It's not that what we do in a
                        > Waldorf classroom is or should be secret - far from it. But it should be
                        done in
                        > total freedom and independence from any other controlling factor. And only
                        > those parents and families who understand it honestly and as fully as
                        possible
                        > should participate. Sometimes withholding truth can be as bad as a direct
                        lie.
                        > That's what I meant, Frank.

                        Okay, Christine, I thought you meant that Waldorf schools hide what
                        anthroposophy really is, in respect ot reincanation, the spirit,
                        religiosity, the Nazi accusation, etc. As far as the relation of schools
                        (Waldorf and others) to
                        the state, I agree with you. In my experience, most W-teachers haven't the
                        vaguest idea of what the Threefold concept entails: autonomous schools, free
                        from state control. And many of those few who do realize it are afraid to
                        mention it. When the Sra. Inspectora comes they fall all over themselves
                        kissing her ass. The one course I still teach in the teachers training
                        school in Buenos Aires is called Ecologia social, for want of a better name,
                        I guess. It's 50% threefold society and 50% organzation development and
                        group dynamics. In the first part I try to hammer into their young heads
                        that W-schools should be models of state-free schools. Much nodding of
                        heads, even applause, though I suspect they forget it once in teaching
                        activity. Anecdote: A few months ago a new inspector came to our little
                        school here in the wilderness, very nice woman, most enthusistic about what
                        she saw. I told her we're thinking of withdrawing our request for state
                        approval, because we're not able to comply with the stupid burocratic
                        requirements and their costs. She agreed with our criticism, but said it
                        would be a mistake to break off because the parents, espedcially new ones,
                        woudn't understand that. Also, after the 6th grade (end of primary school
                        here) the kids would still have to take a state exam to enter high school.
                        (Two good arguments which we were well aware of.) She also said she would do
                        all possible to obtain approval. Fine, we went along, but nothing has
                        changed because not even she can shake the bureaucracy. Now we are thinking
                        of changing to a cooperative, with the teachers as members, not employees,
                        and kiss the Ministerio de Educacion goodbye. But the teachers themselves
                        are afraid of this.
                        >
                        > I have a manuscript which I will either type or try to scan that addresses
                        > the revolutionary aspect of Waldorf Education. I intend to send it to you
                        in
                        > entirety. In the meantime, I will say that the bit about the Threefold
                        Social
                        > Order being on the table at Versailles was told to me and six other
                        teacher
                        > trainees in 1977-78 by Rene Querido. If it's not true, I want to know why
                        he told
                        > us. The manuscript that I am working on supports it, but does not state it
                        > exactly. I will keep researching. If you can, please tell me why you said
                        that it
                        > never happened.

                        Steiner spoke with various high ranking German politicians, and wrote
                        memorandums, trying to convince them that Germany offer the threefold
                        society as a post-war (I) alternative at peace negotiations. Although some
                        seemed well disposed to the idea, nothing happened and it never reached
                        Versailles. (Lindenberg - "Rudolf Steiner-Eine Biographie" and elsewhere).
                        Why Querido may have said something different, I don't know.

                        Frank
                      • dottie zold
                        Hi Christine, Rick and Frank, The Gospel of Mary is only four pages or so long. This quote is when the brothers have become bereaved with the departure of
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                          Hi Christine, Rick and Frank,

                          The Gospel of Mary is only four pages or so long. This
                          quote is when the brothers have become bereaved with
                          the departure of Christ. This one doesn't state it in
                          the 'make us all males' although it is similar. I
                          couldn't find the exact quote I was looking for last
                          night.

                          Gospel of Mary: How shall we go to the Gentiles and
                          preach the gospel of the kingdom of the Son of Man? If
                          they did not spare him how will they spare us? Then
                          Mary stood up greeted them all and said to her
                          brethren, "Do not weep and do not grieve nor be
                          irresolute, for his grace will be entirely with you
                          and will protect you. But rather let us praise his
                          greatness, for he has prepared us and made us into
                          men." When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to
                          the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the
                          Savior.

                          Peter said to Mary, "Sister, we know that the Savior
                          loved you more than the rest of the women. Tell us the
                          words which you remember - which you know but we do
                          not nore have we heard them. Mary answered and said
                          "What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you."

                          Gsopel of Phillip:

                          There were three who always walked with the Lord. Mary
                          his mother and her sister and Magdalene, the one who
                          was called his companion. His sister and his mother,
                          and his companiion were each a Mary.

                          AND HERE IS SOMETHING INTERESTING THAT FOLLOWS. (MY
                          CAPS:)

                          "The Father and the Son are single names. the Holy
                          Spirit is a double name. For they are everywhere: they
                          are above, they are below; they are in the concealed,
                          they are revealed. The Holy Spirit is revealed: it is
                          below. It is in the concealed: it is above.

                          You made a comment about Magdalene and another melted
                          but you can not show it yet. I think it might be found
                          in this above.

                          It is clear, very clear in the Nag Hammadi that
                          Magdalene is the most loved of Christ Jesus. Philip
                          states it, Thomas states it, Mary states it and there
                          are others but my eyes tired of looking for them last
                          night. This is a huge book. And it is in many pieces
                          as is my bible. I am even missing the first three
                          pages of Genesis due to it falling a part in my
                          hands:)

                          Also in Philip:

                          As for Wisdom, who is called barren, she is the mother
                          of the angels. And the companion of the Savior (is)
                          Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the
                          disciples and used to kiss her ofter on her mouth. The
                          rest of the disciples were offended by it and
                          expressed disapproval. They said to him, " Why do you
                          love her more than all of us? The Savior answered and
                          said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a
                          blind man and one who sees, are both in darkness, they
                          are no different from one another. When the light
                          comes the he who sees will see the light, and he who
                          is blind will remain in darkness.

                          The Lord said "Blessed is he who is before he came
                          into being. For he who is, h as been and shall be.

                          Christine, for me I have always read the bible for
                          what was just before a passage, that rang a bell, and
                          also that which is read after. For some reason I had
                          not thought to read the Nag in the same manner. But
                          today while writing this I found my self realizing
                          what Christ is really saying in regards to the
                          companion. I am thinking that the word consort and
                          companion, which is usually used to explain the
                          relationship of Christ to Sophia in the Nag, have the
                          same meaning? Do you interpret them one and the same?

                          Did you know that the technical translation of Kingdom
                          within is actually Queendom within in the original
                          Aramaic language that Jesus spoke; Malduka. For me its
                          like my main man was walking around calling on all to
                          find the Queendom within:)

                          I am wondering if Frank or Rick might be able to point
                          to a book within the Nag of a conversation with Mary
                          begging the Lord to be patient with her many
                          questions, and the men, probably my friend Peter,
                          complaining that she is taking up too much time
                          because they can't seem to get a question in edgewise?
                          It is in one of these that Mary makes the statement of
                          making us all males.

                          I am finding it interesting that they called Salt,
                          Sophia. It makes me think on my question of the story
                          about ?(can't remember her name at the moment) turning
                          to a pillar of Salt. It looks like she lost out in
                          living yet she had no part of the fornication that
                          took place between father and daughters.

                          Interesting for me for I found seven women while
                          looking for pillars in an art piece that called to
                          mind Pillars of Faith.

                          Happy Sunday,

                          dottie

                          Christine wrote:
                          > Please tell me WHERE she says that!!! Is it in the
                          > BIBLE?? If so, Please give
                          > me the chapter and verse - I really want to see it
                          > for myself. Doesn't ring a
                          > bell at all. In fact, I don't recall any quotes of
                          > her at all except when she
                          > meets The Risen Christ and asks him where he put her
                          > teacher (rabbi).
                          >
                          > This is really, really important to me, so please
                          > find me that quote. Thank
                          > you!
                          >
                          > : ) Christine
                          >


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                        • golden3000997@cs.com
                          Hi Dottie et al! Cool Stuff, this Internet Thing!!! Been doing lots of reading, researching, getting Mary pictures for you Dottie! Look at the highlight below,
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                            Hi Dottie et al!

                            Cool Stuff, this Internet Thing!!!

                            Been doing lots of reading, researching, getting Mary pictures for you
                            Dottie! Look at the highlight below, I'll emphasis it, in case the Bold doesn't
                            work.

                            Here is the link:

                            http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

                            Cut and pasted from a search on the site above:

                            Search = Mary

                            Search Result
                            The (Second) Apocalypse of James -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                            The (Second) Apocalypse of James, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site
                            includes the entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other
                            primary Gnostic scriptures and documents.
                            relative of his. He said, "Hasten! Come with Mary, your wife, and your
                            relatives
                            The Gospel of Philip -- The Nag Hammadi Library

                            The Gospel of Philip, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes the
                            entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary
                            Gnostic scriptures and documents.

                            ********************

                            Some said, "Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit." They are in error. They do
                            not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman? Mary
                            is the

                            **************************

                            There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary, his mother, and her
                            sister, and companion were each a Mary.

                            angels. And the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] loved her more
                            than all the
                            The Sophia of Jesus Christ -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                            The Sophia of Jesus Christ, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes
                            the entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary
                            Gnostic scriptures and documents.
                            Mary said to him: "Lord, then how will we know that?"


                            Mary said to him: "Holy Lord, where did your disciples come from, and where
                            are

                            The Gospel of Thomas Collection -- Translations and Resources
                            The Gospel of Thomas in multiple translations, along with a vast collection
                            of material about the Thomas tradition. This site includes the entire Hammadi
                            Library, as well as a large collection of other primary Gnostic scriptures and
                            documents.
                            21. Mary said to Jesus, "What are your disciples like?"

                            114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve
                            Gospel of Thomas (Lambdin Translation) -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                            The Gospel of Thomas in multiple translations, along with a vast collection
                            of material about the Thomas tradition. This site includes the entire Hammadi
                            Library, as well as a large collection of other primary Gnostic scriptures and
                            documents.
                            (21) Mary said to Jesus, "Whom are your disciples like?"


                            (114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy
                            of

                            The Dialogue of the Savior -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                            The Dialogue of the Savior, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes
                            the entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary
                            Gnostic scriptures and documents.
                            Mary said, "Lord, behold! Whence do I bear the body while I weep, and whence
                            while

                            Mary hailed her brethren, saying, "Where are you going to put these things
                            about

                            Then he [...] Judas and Matthew and Mary [...] the edge of heaven and earth.
                            And when Mary said, "[...] see evil [...] them from the first [...] each
                            other.


                            Mary said, "Thus with respect to 'the wickedness of each day,' and 'the
                            laborer is

                            Mary said, "Tell me, Lord, why I have come to this place to profit or to Mary
                            said to him, "Lord, is there then a place which is [...] or lacking truth?"
                            Mary said, "Lord, you are fearful and wonderful, and [...] those who do not
                            know

                            Mary said, "I want to understand all things, just as they are!"
                            Mary said, "Everything established thus is seen."


                            Mary said, "There is but one saying I will speak to the Lord concerning the

                            Mary said, "Of what sort is that mustard seed? Is it something from heaven or
                            is Mary said, "They will never be obliterated."
                            Mary said to the Lord, "When the works [...] which dissolve a work."


                            Introduction to the Nag Hammadi Library
                            through James and through Mary Magdalene [who the Gnostics revered as consort
                            to Jesus]. disciple had been a woman, Mary Magdalene, his consort. The Gospel
                            of Philip
                            "...the companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more
                            than

                            The Testimony of Truth -- The Nag Hammadi Library
                            The Testimony of Truth, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes the
                            entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary
                            Gnostic scriptures and documents.
                            the world through a virgin, Mary. What is (the meaning of) this mystery? John
                            was begotten
                            Gospel of Thomas - Patterson & Robinson Translation -- Nag Hammadi Library
                            The Gospel of Thomas in multiple translations, along with a vast collection
                            of material about the Thomas tradition. This site includes the entire Hammadi
                            Library, as well as a large collection of other primary Gnostic scriptures and
                            documents.
                            (1) Mary said to Jesus: "Whom are your disciples like?"
                            (1) Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not
                            worthy of

                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            --
                            32 matches.
                          • dottie zold
                            Dear Christine, You are pretty amazing! I would like to know if you could slow down just a second and look at some of the questions I have for you? I have been
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                              Dear Christine,

                              You are pretty amazing!

                              I would like to know if you could slow down just a
                              second and look at some of the questions I have for
                              you?

                              I have been following this for three years and finally
                              found someone who speaks my language regarding
                              Magdalene. There is much more of her to be found
                              regarding the mystery of ChristSophia.

                              Do you have time to look at some of the questions? I
                              thought I moved fast, whew:) Its funny what
                              inspiration will do 'ey?

                              So, do you recall how you came to this? Where did your
                              inspiration of the Holy Spirit as feminine originate?
                              What books have you read that have led you to this?
                              Have you thought about Magdalene as the inspirant for
                              the Fourth Gospel and that of The Voice of Thunder?
                              Has it ever occurred to you that Christ initiated
                              Magdlaene and not a man called Lazarus? Do you see her
                              at the table before Christ sacrificed? Do you see her
                              with Christ at the end of John? Do you see Judas as
                              forgiven symbolically through the acceptance of Paul?
                              Where are your inspirations regarding Mary through the
                              house?

                              Had Dr. Steiner inspired you to the Mary mystery? If
                              so, what books?

                              Some of the questions I have asked may not seem
                              credible or whatever, however there are a few things I
                              am working on and they are not clear to me yet. But I
                              am very interested in the Mary questions?

                              Could you make some time for these? What did you think
                              of the passage directly following the 'men' remark in
                              Phillip? Do you intuit anything from that?

                              What age were you when you started to really click
                              with the Mary mystery?

                              I know you have a lot on your plate. If you would take
                              the time I would especially be grateful.

                              Admiringly,

                              Dottie

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                            • golden3000997@cs.com
                              Hi Dottie! I m going to paste all this on a word document, then hit the books for answers. The two Jesus children, along with the 2 Josephs & 2 Marys were what
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                                Hi Dottie!

                                I'm going to paste all this on a word document, then hit the books for
                                answers. The two Jesus children, along with the 2 Josephs & 2 Marys were what got me
                                really excited in the first place (1976?) Lecture by Rene Querido (in person
                                - Spring Valley NY Christmas conference) I liked all the cosmic stuff, but
                                after having a bout with "born again" Christianity a few years prior (I graduated
                                HS in 1973). I didn't want to hear anything about Jesus. Then that lecture -
                                WOW!

                                I still think it is the most REVOLUTIONARY concept in all of Anthrop, at
                                least in the sense of Christology. It is such an open secret - and a terrific way
                                to get Jehovah's Witnesses off your doorstep for good! ; )

                                Well, the 2 Marys were pretty obvious after that and Steiner's "Gospel of St.
                                Luke" has the most beautiful illumination in my opinion. But Steiner talks
                                about the 3 soul forces - especially in the Mystery Dramas, which were pretty
                                hot in Spring Valley when I was there at the time. It may have been in
                                conversation with Hans & Ruth Pusch at lunch (I used to clean their house for a while
                                before Hans died). But I guess I just needed Mary Magdalene personally. I felt
                                that she was the only spiritual being I knew of at the time who could
                                understand me at the time, being the sex freak I was back then (until fairly
                                recently). She just fit in perfectly as the Maria of the Will Soul Force. Eva Maria
                                (the Virgin Mary in Luke) the Maria of the Heart or Feeling Soul Force. Mother
                                Mary (Maria Sophia of the Head or Thinking Soul Force).

                                I went through a period of classes to become a Catholic (around 1991 or 1992
                                I think). Oh my God, I can just hear the Anthropops howling now!!! But I have
                                had such very profound experiences and reaction taking the Eucharist (which I
                                did, even though not a Catholic) and I thought I should join so that I could
                                do that with more honesty. I also was involved during that time with a
                                University catholic church with very progressive thinking priests (and there are
                                radicals among them, you know - another topic altogether!). It was a very good
                                experience, but the whirlwind of my life took me away before my joining. I also
                                have had periods of using the rosary and with very good inward effect. Somewhere
                                in all of that, I really came clear about Her as the Divine Feminine of the
                                Godhead. She is the Matrix, the Bearer, the Comforter. Christ said that He
                                would send the Comforter and He has. I have been to Conyers, GA, and even though
                                there was a spooky element that wasn't good (totally my own perception)
                                nevertheless SHE was there simply because all the people were there to reach up to
                                HER. I could feel Her Presence, but not necessarily from Nancy What's Her Name.
                                'Nother subject.

                                Then there is the whole Apocalypse thing - the woman clothed with the Sun,
                                with the Stars around her head and the moon under her feet. The patriarchal
                                church wants us to believe that that is an image of the "church" per se, but I
                                don't think so. It is the Goddess and they really couldn't handle that!!

                                I relate Mary Magdalene with the Divine Whore (oh, the howling!!!!) of the
                                ancient mysteries. I believe that when men (male bodies to be specific)
                                incarnated after the fall, they fell more deeply into matter than female bodies and
                                during the Babylon/ Chaldean, Sumerian, etc. times, the priestesses were
                                "whores" in the sense that men paid money to the temple, then went into the temple
                                and lay with a priestess. During the sex act, she filled his soul with love and
                                life force and raised his vibration so that he could feel connected again with
                                the world of the stars. Don't ask me where this comes from, my own vision I
                                guess, but probably lots of different things I've read over the years. But I
                                did have a very real and very profound clairvoyant perception of myself in
                                Atlantis after I had made love with someone who is a friend now (this was about
                                seven years ago) and I actually felt in Spirit what sex was like back then -
                                NOTHING could ever compare today with the unity of souls in the star world!!!!
                                Well, we can't go back again, but Oh boy, was it amazing!!!

                                I think that Mary Magdalene was in a way the last in the line of sacred
                                whores. Her whole Ego from the past and bodily experience during the Incarnation of
                                Christ brought this into line with the I AM. Through the Christ it was
                                transformed into the power to heal the Will Element of the female soul force. Mind
                                you, I am talking about Archetypes of Male & Female, not whether an individual
                                is a man or woman. We are all both. Manifestations of Karma has some really
                                funny passages about this!! : )

                                Anyway, I'm going to get tied to the stake for all of this, I'm sure, but it
                                lives within me and I don't have anyone in my life to share it with, so your
                                asking is bound to unlock the floodgates!

                                I will try to get some good sources for you. I don't really know how much of
                                RS you have already studied and in what areas - there is so much to try to
                                explore!! If you haven't read "St. Luke", I highly recommend it!

                                More later!

                                Luv,
                                Christine : )
                              • dottie zold
                                Hey Christine, Thanks so much for answering me so quickly:) There is more that needs to be explored so hopefully the floodgates will be opened. I don t see
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                                  Hey Christine,

                                  Thanks so much for answering me so quickly:) There is
                                  more that needs to be explored so hopefully the
                                  floodgates will be opened.

                                  I don't see Magdalene nor the other priestess as
                                  'whores'. I believe that is man made. And I do believe
                                  it did disinegrate at some point but I do not feel she
                                  was a part of that. I believe the Voice of Thunder
                                  speaks to that.

                                  She came to me as well. And it completely freaked me
                                  out. She came as me, and I physically batted her away.
                                  I didn't understand and it left me in tears as to 'why
                                  me', who am I to experience such a thing'. I have been
                                  searching ever more so since that day. I usually get
                                  rushes I call the Burning Bush :) in December and then
                                  again at Easter. This year it happened also right on
                                  St. Johns Day. Didn't know it was his day until I
                                  questioned what was happening. It was like a seven day
                                  period of inspirations.

                                  I have an amazing book that speaks to the issue of
                                  'holy whores'...and actually I had done some research,
                                  little, about the word harlot, it actually was a
                                  reference to a vagabond man. Had nothing to do with a
                                  woman. Anyway, I have no issue with Magdalene being a
                                  prostitute if indeed she was, however I don't find
                                  this to be true. The kissing on the mouth also is the
                                  way knowledge/initiation was expressed from what I can
                                  tell.

                                  Its funny when you said she came to you. Its
                                  interesting because you can really sense her. She's so
                                  readily available to be experienced or maybe she is so
                                  ready to share to those who are open to her. And you
                                  know its her. Its pretty clear.

                                  Good. I found it was the Fifth Gospel that really put
                                  John the Baptist and Magdalene in perspective for me
                                  and also the two Mary mothers. Although I must say
                                  that I have a little theory about one of those
                                  mothers. Still kicking it around though.

                                  I have read quite a bit of Steiner. Maybe forty or
                                  fifty or more books. Feel pretty connected to his
                                  spirit although I am not your usual Steiner student.
                                  And that's an understatement.


                                  Thanks, Christine

                                  Dottie

                                  p.s. btw Aminah was not the daughter of Muhammed, she
                                  was his mother:)

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                                • Richard Distasi
                                  Dottie, It should be noted that Steiner has made known to us that when the disciple who Jesus loved is mentioned the Gospel is pointing to the fact that this
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                                    Dottie,
                                     
                                    It should be noted that Steiner has made known to us that when the disciple who Jesus loved is mentioned the Gospel is pointing to the fact that this is an initiate that Christ Jesus has initiated. You may have already stressed this in your past posts so if I'm repeating something already mentioned and noted by you please excuse me.
                                     
                                    The one passage that I find intriguing is that these passages speak of making Mary Magdalene into a male. Does it mean that she is taught certain things and initiated to a certain degree that she is now respected as a Rabbi or Teacher?
                                     
                                    rick distasi
                                  • Richard Distasi
                                    Christine wrote in regard to the two Jesus infants: I still think it is the most REVOLUTIONARY concept in all of Anthrop, at least in the sense of
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 9, 2003
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                                      Christine wrote in regard to the two Jesus infants:
                                       
                                      "I still think it is the most REVOLUTIONARY concept in all of Anthrop, at
                                      least in the sense of Christology. It is such an open secret - and a terrific way
                                      to get Jehovah's Witnesses off your doorstep for good! ;  )"
                                       
                                      I absolutely agree. I was stunned when I read this from Steiner and it was this very revelation that put me over the top in uniting myself with Anthroposophy. I thought that the fact that Christ and Jesus were separate was radical enough; the two Jesus infants/children was a shocking revelation for me.
                                       
                                      As far as Jehovah's Witnesses: I had a couple of them come to my door once. I confronted them with some of the material from Anthroposophy and they were stupefied. They had no response. One even wanted to get more information about Anthroposophy.
                                       
                                      rick distasi 
                                    • golden3000997@cs.com
                                      Good Morning Rick et all! I had two separate experiences with the Jehovah s Witnesses in California. It was really funny! You see, I don t go around and knock
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                        Good Morning Rick et all!

                                        I had two separate experiences with the Jehovah's Witnesses in California. It
                                        was really funny! You see, I don't go around and knock on other people's
                                        doors and try to sell them my belief system, but when they do that to me, I
                                        consider them "fair game."

                                        The first time was two older ladies. Their question was "do you read the
                                        Bible?" LOL Well, I said "Certainly" and invited them in for coffee. After about
                                        30 or 40 minutes of dissertation on the opening of the Gospel of St. John, they
                                        were (literally) backing out of my apartment, edging against the wall. "Come
                                        on Mabel." One was saying. "I think we need to go now." And of course, they
                                        never came back, which is good because they tend to be like the hobos of the
                                        depression, who used to leave a mark on the front door or gate of a house that
                                        had offered hospitality, so the other hobos would go there.

                                        But a couple of years later, a young man came round (must have been a new
                                        recruit and didn't know the sign for "Keep Away" yet). I did the same thing and
                                        he kept saying "Come to a meeting and ask the Elders about that." I am pretty
                                        sure I was pointing out the two geneaologies to him. I told him "YOU go back to
                                        your meeting and ask the Elders about that!"

                                        After that, they distributed maps of the area to all new recruits with my
                                        house clearly marked.

                                        : ) Christine
                                      • Richard Distasi
                                        Christine you wrote: After that, they distributed maps of the area to all new recruits with my house clearly marked.
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                          Christine you wrote:
                                           
                                          "After that, they distributed maps of the area to all new recruits with my
                                          house clearly marked."
                                          ************************************************************************************
                                           
                                          I wish I could say the same. :-)
                                           
                                          rick distasi
                                        • dottie zold
                                          Morning Rick, ... When you say initiate do you mean to convey that the other diciples were not, other than this one whom Jesus loved? If so I would have to say
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                            Morning Rick,

                                            You wrote:
                                            > It should be noted that Steiner has made known to us
                                            > that when the disciple who Jesus loved is mentioned
                                            > the Gospel is pointing to the fact that this is an
                                            > initiate that Christ Jesus has initiated.

                                            When you say initiate do you mean to convey that the
                                            other diciples were not, other than this one whom
                                            Jesus loved? If so I would have to say that it could
                                            be none other than the Magdalene, and that the raising
                                            of Lazarus points to that, not to mention all the
                                            comments in the Nag Hammadi referring to Jesus loving
                                            her the most and kissing her on the mouth and so
                                            forth. As I said earlier I have seen it referenced in
                                            many places, not specifically pointing to Magdalene,
                                            that kissing on the mouth is an initiatic reference.
                                            The book I am reading on the Sufis speaks of this as
                                            well.

                                            I don't think anyone can really say for 100 % that a
                                            thing is such and such. I can only say that in my
                                            personal studies I can not find Lazarus as a being in
                                            the manner he is discussed. I am open to it not having
                                            been Magdalene if this is the truth.

                                            I am wondering if you are aware of any other
                                            initiatic experience to the level of the 'beloved' in
                                            the bible? Maybe it has escaped me and there is
                                            another way of looking at this Lazarus thing. When I
                                            trail the Marys I find they are indeed 'one whom God
                                            helped' in the OT as well: the sister of Moses and the
                                            woman with Elija given the rod. Its funny because it
                                            is noted by a few scholars that Muhammed made a
                                            mistake by naming the Virgin Mary as the sister of
                                            Moses. They say he confused his Marys. I say he knew
                                            'exactly' what he was saying its just there wasn't
                                            anyone of understanding who was enlightened enough to
                                            see what he was saying.

                                            Rick
                                            You may
                                            > have already stressed this in your past posts so if
                                            > I'm repeating something already mentioned and noted
                                            > by you please excuse me.

                                            Dottie

                                            No, I hadn't stressed it although I did mention it.
                                            This tends to get me in a bit of hot water with
                                            Christoligists. But I didn't pull this out of thin
                                            air. It came from within. I think when I saw your
                                            words this morning it made me wonder, because I am
                                            always looking for a way to be wrong about my
                                            insights, if I am onto something with Lazarus or if
                                            there is another initiative scene that could possibly

                                            > speak to the Magdalene mystery as the 'beloved'.

                                            Rick
                                            > The one passage that I find intriguing is that these
                                            > passages speak of making Mary Magdalene into a male.
                                            > Does it mean that she is taught certain things and
                                            > initiated to a certain degree that she is now
                                            > respected as a Rabbi or Teacher?

                                            Dottie

                                            I think it is more than that. However, she is now
                                            called, I can't remember since when, maybe the
                                            fifties, The Apostle to The Apostles by the Catholic
                                            Church: Teacher to the Teachers. I believe Steiners
                                            Genesis speaks to the 'male' thing. I believe it may
                                            be the 'raying' out of the ...well I will find it in
                                            the book today. I believe it is the persons who are
                                            able to radiate love, Christ/Sun like, from within to
                                            without like the suns rays from above. And I believe
                                            it is said this happened during the time when we were
                                            coming into being. I believe it is what happened when
                                            the ancient sages of the day called out to the Cosmos
                                            and they heard a resounding 'yes'(my belief)returning:
                                            I believe that is the male aspect and the humans are
                                            the female aspect as the recievers. Eunichs have made
                                            themselves recievers of the 'word' so that they can
                                            become male??

                                            I believe she is called Apostle to the Apostles for
                                            many reasons and mostly because she was able to
                                            recognize Jesus as the Christ when resssurected. She
                                            was the only one. Which brings up an interesting point
                                            of recognizing Jesus 'as' the Christ. A man was truly
                                            ressurected as one in Christ. And this is why I
                                            believe she is the inspirant for the Fourth Gospel and
                                            also the reason I see her as representing the Sophia,
                                            daughter voice of God.

                                            My thoughts,
                                            Dottie

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                                          • dottie zold
                                            Dear Rick, In Genesis lecture 2 we find Dr. Steiner discussing Hashamayim and Ha aretz. You know that in the Bible, after the words I endeavored to sketch
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                              Dear Rick,

                                              In Genesis lecture 2 we find Dr. Steiner discussing
                                              Hashamayim and Ha'aretz. " You know that in the Bible,
                                              after the words I endeavored to sketch for you
                                              yesterday, there comes a description of one of the
                                              complexes arising our of the creative thinking of the
                                              gods. I told you that we have to picture that, as if
                                              out of cosmic memory, two comlexes arose. One was a
                                              complex which may be compared to the nature of
                                              thoughts which can arise in us, the other to our
                                              desire or will nature. The one complex contains all
                                              that drives towards outer manifestation, tends as it
                                              were to proclaim its force-hashamayim. The other
                                              complex-ha'aretz-consists of an inner activity filled
                                              with desire. Then we are told of certain qualities of
                                              this inwardly active, enlivening element, and these
                                              are indicated in the Bible with the sounds which
                                              portray their character. We are told that this
                                              inwardly active element was in a condition described
                                              as tohu wa'bohu- without form and void.To understand
                                              what is meant by tohu wa' bohu we must paint a picture
                                              of it; and we shall only succeed in this if out of our
                                              spiritual scientific knowledge we call to mind what it
                                              was that, after its passage through the Saturn, Sun
                                              and Moon stages, re-emerged and surged through space
                                              as our earth existence, as our planet earth."

                                              ...

                                              So, we have to imagine the elements of warmth, air and
                                              water permeating and interpenetrating each other, and
                                              within them a raying out as from a centre in all
                                              directions, and this raying out would be there if we
                                              only heard the first part of the sound structure,
                                              tohu. What does the second part of the phrase signify?
                                              It expresses the very opposite of what I have just
                                              described. Bet, the sound which resemebles our B, had
                                              the character of calling forth our imagination the
                                              picture of an enormous sphere, a hollow sphere, with
                                              yourself inside it, and rays proceeding from every
                                              point inside this sphere towards the center. Thus you
                                              imagine a point in space with forces streaming out in
                                              all directions, and this is tohu; then these forces
                                              are arrested as it were by an outer spherical
                                              enclosure and turned back on themselves from every
                                              direction of space, and this is bohu."

                                              So, this is what I mean by the raying in and out and
                                              the male and female aspect. Which also includes the
                                              planet earth as signified by the word ha'aretz and the
                                              Sun signified as the word hashamayim. Yin & Yang

                                              Dottie


                                              > Rick
                                              > > The one passage that I find intriguing is that
                                              > these
                                              > > passages speak of making Mary Magdalene into a
                                              > male.
                                              > > Does it mean that she is taught certain things and
                                              > > initiated to a certain degree that she is now
                                              > > respected as a Rabbi or Teacher?


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                                            • Richard Distasi
                                              Dottie: Steiner does make mention that Christ Jesus did bring the Apostles along by stages through the different levels of Initiation so that they too were
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                                Dottie:
                                                 
                                                Steiner does make mention that Christ Jesus did bring the Apostles along by stages through the different levels of Initiation so that they too were Initiates. The twelve attained the level of Imagination when the Gospels relate the scene of the walking on water. As time went on only three were able to attain Inspiration on Mount Tabor; the Transfiguration. And even here it begins to become evident that these three, Peter along with James and John ben Zebedee, were not able to fully remain conscious through this Initiation. Finally, these three were to pass through the Initiation of Intuition and it is here that they fail completely. They cannot retain consciousness. They are then unable to pass through the Event of Golgotha in spirit-consciousness with Christ: not just physically present at the Cross but rather they were to become one spiritually with Christ (in Intuition with Christ) throughout the whole event of Golgotha. They could not. Days prior to this Christ had initiated Lazarus with the intent that if His chosen Apostles could not stay with Him there would be one who could and would become the bearer of the astral body of Christ Jesus which would then become the source of the Gospel of John. This was Lazarus as Steiner had pointed out in his lectures on the Gospel of John in Hamburg, 1908. Mary Magdalene was certainly another Initiate of Christ. It was she who experienced the Risen Christ and told it to the others. I don't have anything from Steiner that addresses the level of initiation that she had achieved though the Gnostic Gospels mention her as being more advanced than the Apostles themselves. It should be noted that though Lazarus became John in name he was not John who accompanied Christ to Mt. Tabor nor was he John who slept while Christ passed through His agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. Lazarus and Mary Magdalene were brother and sister along with Martha; all three of whom were mentioned as being "loved" by Christ. 
                                                 
                                                rick distasi
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:01 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Divine Feminine

                                                Morning Rick,

                                                You wrote:
                                                > It should be noted that Steiner has made known to us
                                                > that when the disciple who Jesus loved is mentioned
                                                > the Gospel is pointing to the fact that this is an
                                                > initiate that Christ Jesus has initiated.

                                                When you say initiate do you mean to convey that the
                                                other diciples were not, other than this one whom
                                                Jesus loved? If so I would have to say that it could
                                                be none other than the Magdalene, and that the raising
                                                of Lazarus points to that, not to mention all the
                                                comments in the Nag Hammadi referring to Jesus loving
                                                her the most and kissing her on the mouth and so
                                                forth. As I said  earlier I have seen it referenced in
                                                many places, not specifically pointing to Magdalene,
                                                that kissing on the mouth is an initiatic reference.
                                                The book I am reading on the Sufis speaks of this as
                                                well.

                                                I don't think anyone can really say for 100 % that a
                                                thing is such and such. I can only say that in my
                                                personal studies I can not find Lazarus as a being in
                                                the manner he is discussed. I am open to it not having
                                                been Magdalene if this is the truth.

                                                I am wondering if you are aware of any  other
                                                initiatic experience to the level of the 'beloved' in
                                                the bible? Maybe it has escaped me and there is
                                                another way of looking at this Lazarus thing. When I
                                                trail the Marys I find they are indeed 'one whom God
                                                helped' in the OT as well: the sister of Moses and the
                                                woman with Elija given the rod. Its funny because it
                                                is noted by a few scholars that Muhammed made a
                                                mistake by naming the Virgin Mary as the sister of
                                                Moses.  They say he confused his Marys. I say he knew
                                                'exactly' what he was saying its just there wasn't
                                                anyone of understanding who was enlightened enough to
                                                see what he was saying. 

                                                Rick
                                                You may
                                                > have already stressed this in your past posts so if
                                                > I'm repeating something already mentioned and noted
                                                > by you please excuse me.

                                                Dottie

                                                No, I hadn't stressed it although I did mention it.
                                                This tends to get me in a bit of hot water with
                                                Christoligists. But I didn't pull this out of thin
                                                air. It came from within. I think when I saw your
                                                words this morning it made me wonder, because I am
                                                always looking for a way to be wrong about my
                                                insights, if I am onto something  with Lazarus or if
                                                there is another initiative scene that could  possibly

                                                > speak to the Magdalene mystery as the 'beloved'.

                                                Rick
                                                > The one passage that I find intriguing is that these
                                                > passages speak of making Mary Magdalene into a male.
                                                > Does it mean that she is taught certain things and
                                                > initiated to a  certain degree that she is now
                                                > respected as a Rabbi or Teacher?

                                                Dottie

                                                I think it is more than that. However, she is now
                                                called, I can't remember since when, maybe the
                                                fifties, The Apostle to The Apostles by the Catholic
                                                Church: Teacher to the Teachers. I believe Steiners
                                                Genesis speaks to the 'male' thing. I believe it may
                                                be the 'raying' out of the ...well I will find it in
                                                the book today. I believe it is the persons who are
                                                able to radiate love, Christ/Sun like, from within to
                                                without like the suns rays from above. And I believe
                                                it is said this happened during the time when we were
                                                coming into being. I believe it is what happened when
                                                the ancient  sages of the day called out to the Cosmos
                                                and they heard a resounding 'yes'(my belief)returning:
                                                I believe that is the male aspect and the humans are
                                                the female aspect as the recievers. Eunichs have made
                                                themselves recievers of the 'word' so that they can
                                                become male??

                                                I believe she is called Apostle to the Apostles for
                                                many reasons and mostly because she was able to
                                                recognize Jesus as the Christ when resssurected. She
                                                was the only one. Which brings up an interesting point
                                                of recognizing Jesus 'as' the Christ. A man was truly
                                                ressurected as one in Christ. And this is why I
                                                believe she is the inspirant for the Fourth Gospel and
                                                also the reason I see her as  representing the Sophia,
                                                daughter voice of God.

                                                My thoughts,
                                                Dottie

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                                              • Richard Distasi
                                                Dottie, You quoted some very weighty material from Steiner s lectures on Genesis and I can appreciate the raying out and steaming back again as macrocosmic
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                                  Dottie,
                                                   
                                                  You quoted some very weighty material from Steiner's lectures on Genesis and I can appreciate the raying out and steaming back again as macrocosmic male and female principles of creation. What caught my attention was the following from Steiner:
                                                   
                                                  "Thus you imagine a point in space with forces streaming out in
                                                  all directions, and this is tohu; then these forces
                                                  are arrested as it were by an outer spherical
                                                  enclosure and turned back on themselves from every
                                                  direction of space, and this is bohu."
                                                   
                                                  ". . .these forces are arrested . . .and turned back on themselves."  Arrested by whom or what is my question. In a lecture by Steiner titled, "Man in the Light of Occultism, Theosophy and Philosophy", he speaks of Twelve World Initiators during the Sun Period who enveloped this particular cosmic sphere which now makes up our present solar system. The space that they occupied is now the space that we recognize as the twelve zodiacal constellations. They poured their World-Word into this sphere which was then taken up by Christ who at that time was a microcosmic planetary Being. Somehow, then, their forces must still be at work even if they no longer are present in these spheres, and I could not find anything from Steiner on this regard, or their forces may have been taken up by the hierarchies (Seraphim perhaps) where the streaming out of the forces of the Elohim and Spirits of Form reach their limit of expansion and are then turned back upon themselves. It is this region that is filled with the Being of Christ during the exhaling of His Being during the spring and summer, gathers the cosmic wisdom of the hierarchies and is brought back to us as it is inhaled again by the earth at this time of the year.
                                                   
                                                  rick distasi
                                                   


                                                   
                                                   
                                                • dottie zold
                                                  ... Hi Rick, Well it seems it is the elohim are are the arrestees when we re-emerge so it seems from Saturn, Sun and Moon stages. Genesis Lecture 2 You know
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Nov 10, 2003
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                                                    from Steiner:
                                                    >
                                                    > "Thus you imagine a point in space with forces
                                                    > streaming out in
                                                    > all directions, and this is tohu; then these forces
                                                    > are arrested as it were by an outer spherical
                                                    > enclosure and turned back on themselves from every
                                                    > direction of space, and this is bohu."
                                                    >

                                                    Rick on Steiner:
                                                    > ". . .these forces are arrested . . .and turned back
                                                    > on themselves." Arrested by whom or what is my
                                                    > question.

                                                    Hi Rick,

                                                    Well it seems it is the elohim are are the arrestees
                                                    when we re-emerge so it seems from Saturn, Sun and
                                                    Moon stages.

                                                    Genesis Lecture 2

                                                    "You know that in the Bible, after the words I
                                                    endeavoured to sketch for you yesterday, there comes a
                                                    description of one of the complexes arising out of the
                                                    creative thinking of the gods. ( I take this to mean
                                                    the elohim.)

                                                    It almost seem like he is explaining the fall of Man
                                                    in a sense in what I shall write below:

                                                    "I pointed out yesterday that what we call the solid
                                                    conditions, namely that which offers resistance to our
                                                    sense, did not exist during the Saturn, Sun and Moon
                                                    stages; all that existed then were the elements of
                                                    fire or warmth, gas or air, and water. Basically it
                                                    was not until the planet earth stage emerged that the
                                                    solid element was added to the previous elemental
                                                    conditions. So that when the moment occurred that we
                                                    described yesterday, of the sun beginning to split off
                                                    from the earth, this was the moment when the elements
                                                    of warmth, air and water began to mutually
                                                    interpenetrate.

                                                    Wow....that is pretty amazing when looking at the
                                                    beginning of the Earth stage. Wow. Makes me
                                                    contemplate Adam & Eve and what each individual
                                                    relationship was to the symbols of this re-emergence.
                                                    And then the snake???? anyway,

                                                    He goes onto say:

                                                    " However, we emphasized yesterday that these elohim
                                                    came over to earth evolution at the stage to which
                                                    they had evolved during the Saturn, Sun and Moon
                                                    evolutions. So they were in a similar situation to
                                                    when you wake up and bring groups of thoughts to mind.
                                                    You can contemplate these thoughts in a kind of
                                                    soul/spiritual way, you can tell what they are like.
                                                    You can say: 'When I wake up in the morning and recall
                                                    what was previously in my mind and what I am now
                                                    calling up, I can describe it'. It was approximately
                                                    the same for the elohim when they said to themselves:
                                                    'let us now think creatively about what arises in our
                                                    souls when we recall all that took place during the
                                                    old Saturn, Sun and Moon evolutions. Let us see what
                                                    it looks like when we remember it.' What it looked
                                                    like was tohu wa' bohu, and could be expressed be the
                                                    picture I gave you of rays streaming out from a centre
                                                    into space and back again in such a way that the
                                                    elements interacted in these rays of force. Thus the
                                                    elohim could say, roughly: 'This is what things look
                                                    like after we have brought them to this point. This is
                                                    how they re-emerge.

                                                    I need to get this book you speak of below. Is that
                                                    the name of it in its current form? That's pretty
                                                    amazing information. It feels like it is all coming
                                                    together doesn't it?

                                                    My Best,
                                                    Dottie

                                                    Rick wrote:
                                                    In a lecture by Steiner titled, "Man in
                                                    > the Light of Occultism, Theosophy and Philosophy",
                                                    > he speaks of Twelve World Initiators during the Sun
                                                    > Period who enveloped this particular cosmic sphere
                                                    > which now makes up our present solar system. The
                                                    > space that they occupied is now the space that we
                                                    > recognize as the twelve zodiacal constellations.
                                                    > They poured their World-Word into this sphere which
                                                    > was then taken up by Christ who at that time was a
                                                    > microcosmic planetary Being. Somehow, then, their
                                                    > forces must still be at work even if they no longer
                                                    > are present in these spheres, and I could not find
                                                    > anything from Steiner on this regard, or their
                                                    > forces may have been taken up by the hierarchies
                                                    > (Seraphim perhaps) where the streaming out of the
                                                    > forces of the Elohim and Spirits of Form reach their
                                                    > limit of expansion and are then turned back upon
                                                    > themselves. It is this region that is filled with
                                                    > the Being of Christ during the exhaling of His Being
                                                    > during the spring and summer, gathers the cosmic
                                                    > wisdom of the hierarchies and is brought back to us
                                                    > as it is inhaled again by the earth at this time of
                                                    > the year.
                                                    >
                                                    > rick distasi
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >


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                                                  • Richard Distasi
                                                    Dottie, you wrote: I need to get this book you speak of below. Is that the name of it in its current form? Man in the light of Occultism, Theosophy and
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Nov 11, 2003
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                                                      Dottie, you wrote:
                                                       
                                                      "I need to get this book you speak of below. Is that
                                                      the name of it in its current form?"
                                                       
                                                      "Man in the light of Occultism, Theosophy and Philosophy" is a lecture cycle given By RSteiner in 1912. There are ten lectures to it. The lecture that I made reference to was lecture X. 
                                                       
                                                      To access this lecture I listed below a link to it via elib.com. It is the following:
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      rick distasi
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