Re: The death and possoble resurrection of anthroposophy
> To you Dottie, I would say, that for me it is not a matter ofTomberg being the new head
> of the Society or anything like that. It is just that this teachershould be read without
> prejudice and valued as an inspiration in his own right.Dear Uffe,
I agree that he should be read without prejudice. For some they can't
as it is clear he left after being rejected by the Society and then
said some pretty nasty things about Anthroposophy. From the letter
that I've read that he wrote, I can understand why people would be
thinking his later work was not for them.
I found the Meditations book to be very dry. I found no life in it
for me. I know many anthroposophists who are not pro Tomberg who
found that book inspirational as well as his early work on the
Gospels. I have not yet read any of his early work but wouldnt' mind
if I was able to find them. I shall have to ask the branch library if
they have any.
And again, Uffe, I have said before that I really appreciate your
honest approach to this subject. I clearly disagree with you but I
have found you to be honest and sincere. I can not say this about
Joel. Not to bag on him but I experience a whole different integrity
issue that works within you that I find lacking in some other Tomberg
students. So although we may disagree I love that I trust you.
An inspiration featuring some
> basic similarities to Steiners teachings, but also an impulse ofthought in its own and
> completely independent right. There is no reason to be threatenedby differing or even
> opposing lines of thinking, if they contain a valid truth, theybelong to the Church of
> Truth.I really don't think of it as being threatened in any manner. I think
it is a matter of having different opinions of where we heading and
why. My teacher Rudolf Steiner has encouraged through his own work
the need to study those that agree and you would think disagree with
your own outlook. His whole body of work is about freedom and
achieving it. Big part of why many of us see the Catholic Church very
different than you.
I also don't see this 'Church of Truth' as you do. I think of it as
mankind. I find that it is the path of anthroposophy that allows one
to truly tread onwards to the path of freedom. I think the Church is
the antithesis of that.
Could anthroposophists be more open to certain things? Absolutely.
And I think that is really starting to flourish. Did they get stuck
in Steiner said and that is that? Absolutely. And I am hearing a
similar veneration from you and other pro Tomberg students towards
him and the church.
The big issues is when you say something or repeat something
like 'Anthroposophy is dead'. I don't think you can know that. You
can certainly say that but Steinre's path would require that you have
an understanding of how you could know that. Not just what it looks
like to the outer eye but what the truth of it is in the spiritual
The paper you offered up was a subjective one designed to show how
Anthroposophy is failing or has failed because they have not paid
enought attention to the historical church. That's not a known
spiritual reality that is a physical thought off of feeling. There's
nothing objective about that and Rudolf Steiner's work is all about
The christian spiritual path as I know it, is not one of keeping the
faith in one truth,
> but rather one of fusing the opposites into a still greater, moresubtle and refined
> conception of truth. This practice, called cunniunctio oppositorum,is the path and heart of
> hermetic teaching.I don't think it is so much about fusing. And because I understand
you to mean that we will fuse with the church I take issue with that.
Rudolf Steiner's path was not to be in the Church specifically just
like it was not mine. He states that if he had come across the monks
earlier in his life he would've become one. However he could look
back and see what his life, this new thinking, this new path, was to
develop for mankind. And the church had no place in this type of
thinking as the hierarchal structure was clearly in place and it was
one of obedience. Just this week many in a Catholic congretation were
asked to leave because they refused the new Father's order not to
kneel. So the man shows his true colors by kicking them out and I am
thinking it has to do with Lucifer catching on that people are
starting to want think about their own freedom that he has decided
to beat them to the chase.
> And by the way, I'm not a Catholic.But not because you have not tried. And I for one wish that your
friend had not ratted you out to the preacher and that you would've
been able to be one. I think if that is what your desire was to be it
should've been granted. But as i am one to trust a thing I trust
there was some reason.
At least not in the narrow institutional sense that you
> imply. But I admit to be catholic in the more litteral sense, thatI believe in the oneness
> and sanctity of Truth and thereby also in the one universal Churchof Christ.
I know. And I don't think of things in those terms nor do I see any
objective truth in that understanding. It feels very subjective to
your feelings which is fine. In Rudolf Steiner's work you would have
to be aware of that and from there then make a conscious choice as to
And for me
> both Steiner and Tomberg belongs to this one Church, as does manyother great teachers
> of love and wisdom, as do their disciples.Uffe, I don't consider Christ a church. And somehow it seems that is
how it looks from what you say. Steiner is in the matrix of mankind.
And he is one in Christ. But to put the church in the lead like you
do and other Tomberg students do I think is an error in thinking.
That is my thought. I can't imagine you shall see it any differently
nor I. What we can both do is see if we are being objective in our
thinking and why we think of it in the terms we do.
Who unfortunately often have a very bad habbit
> of detesting, arguing and battling against each other, wastingtheir vital energy on
> misunderstandings and intrigues, instead of joining forces in thebattle against the very
> real evils of this world.Right, but I don't think it is under the Church's domain. I think it
is under Christ's domain and that he belongs to all and not to one
Church of Truth as you put it.
> The Anthroposophical Society is really nothing special in thisregard. You find it in any
> sect, including the historical church itself (or in the competingcultures of science for that
> matter). The spirit of arrogance works in all human societies,without regard. Identifying
> Lucifer in your own heart and ranks is an indispensible part of thechristian healing
> proces, leading to the severing of illusions, complete humiliation,and ultimately the
> fusing of all good forces into the living Body of Christ.I think its actually important to see Lucifer outside of yourself not
inside you. Inside he takes over and its a feely feely life. Outside
of yourself you can see him for what it is. Inside you can have no
true knowledge of him or so it seems to me.
> And I asure you, Anthroposophy is really nothing special.Uffe, you could assure me of no such thing. If anything it shows me
you are not well read in Anthroposophical literature. Somehow you may
have found either Tomberg via Steiner or most likely found Steiner
via Tomberg. But your teacher is clearly Tomberg. In that you, like
him, would find nothign special about Anthroposophy. His was due to
hurt feelings and being misled by another Being, you on the other
hand are working with a lack of knowledge or study of Steiner's work
to know of what you speak. You seem to have a feeling but not an
objective knowledge. No insult intended.
It's just another tiny peakhole
> aiming to shake the walls of human stupidity, a small glimpse intothe endless ocean of
> Truth.Hardly Uffe. But that's all good because I am okay that you think
that. But please consider that just because you think that does not
make it so. And if you wanted to know of what you speak you would
have to do a study for yourself.
How can such a small and manmade cup, however grandiously concieved
> however flowing with heavenly nectar it may be, ever contain, notto say empty the ocean?
> Therefore wise men have always told us, that a truly rich man mustlive by his empty cup,
> pleased to have it filled anywhere the soup is served.Dear Uffe, I am not nor have I ever been in adoration of anyone other
> So drink up my friend, there is no reason to adore the cup.
than the Christ Jesus. Not another soul had called that forth from
within me. I work the anthroposophical path, that you can not see the
difference between this and others is something for you to consider
if you've done enough study that would make that true or if it is a
statement again from what you feel. Nothing wrong with that but good
All good things,
- Frank, thanks for your support! I must say though I
did not spell desert correctly. It should be pea in
the desert because I could not find needle for the
haystack! but then I was thinking before the pea came
that I could use camel through the eye of the...and I
couldn't come to needle again or it too would've led
me to 'needle in a haystack...and then I thought of
peas in a pod...but that didn't really express what I
wanted to say about the camel going through the eye of
the...fill in the blank, hence pea in the desert. See
how my thinking arrived at pea in the desert?
> > Hi Dottie,__________________________________________________
> > I think the phrase you are looking for is "a
> > in a haystack."
> > Sorry, the misspelling is in the title of the
> > thread, but I fixed it
> > on this branch!
> Shit, anyone can say "needle in a haystack". But
> Dottie is creative: "Pea in the dessert". Wheh!
> Frank Thomas Smith
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