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Re: Myth and legend/Judas

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  • holderlin66
    ... Tarjei Straume wrote: legend n. ... but ... a famous ... Bradford; Now tracing things that were left out of the Bible or left out of
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 1, 2004
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      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,

      Tarjei Straume <anthrouncle@c...> wrote:

      legend n.
      > 1 a a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical
      but
      > unauthenticated; a myth
      > 1 b such stories collectively
      > 1 c a popular but unfounded belief
      > 1 d [colloq.] a person about whom unauthenticated tales are told;
      a famous
      > or notorious person (became a legend in his own lifetime).
      > 2 a an inscription, especially on a coin or medal.
      > 2 b [Printing] a caption
      > 2 c wording on a map etc. explaining the symbols used.
      > 3 a [Hist.] the story of a saint's life.
      > 3 b [Hist.] a collection of lives of saints or similar stories.

      Bradford;

      Now tracing things that were left out of the Bible or left out of
      history altogether, and seeing how Steiner was such an excellent
      reporter, a real investigative reporter, we hear such stunning facts
      that are sensational from his words. They may be considered legends
      but not myths and they also are the un-included picture of the facts
      that we can term apocryphal.

      I looked up "Kariot" a tiny island and in Jordan area of Palestine
      related to JaLoud and Kariot and the city of Nablus. This particular
      and several particulars of Nablus-Palastine-Kariot begged further
      interest regarding how Steiner presented his "legend" of Judas
      Iskariot. But have no fear this does lead us to Bob Dylan, that is
      if you can ride the high horse.

      http://www.addameer.org/september2000/pressreleases/sunday4march.html

      Three more Palestinian civilians were killed last night, including
      one woman, and 5 injured (3 under the age of 18, including a 10 year
      old). These willful killings and willfully caused injuries are a
      result of the policy of escalating violence and excessive force used
      by Israeli forces against Palestinians, at the instigation of, and
      resulting from threats made by, Israeli army commanders and
      political leaders against the Palestinian people.
      The Palestinian civilians killed were :

      · Baher Shafik Mahmoud Oda, 18 years old, Hawara Village;
      · Ahmed Hasan Hahmed Alen, 18 years old, Kariot Village, in Nablus
      region;
      · Ida Daoud Musa, 43 year old woman of El Berih.

      R.S.

      http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19090704p01.html

      "There is a legend which, though not in the Gospels, is none the
      less a Christian legend and a Christian truth. It runs as follows:

      There was once a couple who for a long time had no son. It was
      revealed to the mother in a dream (note this well) that she would
      have a son, that this son would kill his father and wed his mother,
      and bring terrible misfortune upon his whole tribe.

      In this legend we have a dream, as with Oedipus there is an oracle —
      that is, a remnant of the old inherited clairvoyance."

      Bradford continues;

      Steiner often throws in some eye popping details connecting dots we
      never were aware of and part of the interest in soul development is
      being able to sense in the soul when such eye popping, soul jarring
      moments grab one. Most people, as per my experience, don't listen
      and have 'blind spots'. They read Steiner or someone else, Chomsky
      and a hundred other examples, and for some reason people have been
      numbed by the type of dialect and discourse that is common to both
      news and the twisted, illogical failed university thinking of P.S.,
      where things are bent beyond recognition to make some twisted sliver
      of sense.

      There has become a well designed Spiritual Numbness so that if one
      does come across potent passages, the reflex of Ahrimanic numbness,
      and missing insights, just give one a blank. However to the outsider
      perspective it would seem that Steiner and certainly Bradford is
      twisting the story out of context. Now that is why Ahriman has come
      in under the cover of thinking blindness and thinking numbness by
      twisting, tale and lie and deception with such boring, dry and dead
      concepts that everyone who gets an education comes out deader than
      they went in. They found no stunning threads. These are reserved for
      those wide participants in the Michael School.

      Now partly this is due to the efforts Steiner made in working
      absolutely new paradigms of research and concepts into culture. On
      another site the Soul was slowly being defined as preset-modularity.
      Here is term one has to see arising in culture and also be able to
      translate it into a living conceptual framework. So here is a term,
      nobody is watching and it slowly creeps up because to say SOUL is so
      unscientific, blah, blah, blah. Steiner offered his terms and his
      structure and it is our job to integrate and observe the various
      connections, lame or accurate, that science is fiddling with. But
      people don't care to do that, even though it is highly interesting.
      For instance:

      http://faculty.virginia.edu/kubovylab/101_97/Lectures/Lecture02.html

      Dreams and modularity

      Five features of dreams
      Intense emotion
      Illogical content and organization
      Clear sensory impressions
      Uncritical acceptance
      Difficulty of remembering the dream

      The principle of modularity
      The mind is not controlled by a single agency
      It is more like a collection of specialized devices: modules
      In dreams some of the modules that work when we are awake are turned
      off; others work harder
      Another example of modularity: autism, a condition that may not
      affect intelligence, but prevents the individual from understanding
      others

      WHERE AM I?
      Mind = soul = spirit
      Why "mind"?
      Is the mind in the heart or in the brain?
      Aristotle (384-322 BCE): heart
      Galen (129-199 CE): brain

      Galen's brain theory
      Experiments on Barbary apes
      Squeeze heart and brain
      Tie off nerve from brain to vocal chords

      Facts about the cortex of the brain

      THE BRAIN
      Total cortical area = 1.3 x 105 mm2
      = a square sheet about 14" on a side
      Cortical thickness = 1.7 mm
      about 1/16" thick
      Number of cortical neurons = 1010
      10,000,000,000 = 10 billion
      Density of cortical neurons = 105/mm3
      1,638,706,400 = about 1.7 billion in a 1" cube

      THE BRAIN
      Number of synapses per neuron = 4x103
      4,000
      Axons: 3 km/mm3
      80,000 miles in a 1" cube
      Number of corpus callosum fibers = 5x108
      500,000,000 = 500 million
      Electrical activity of the brain

      Bradford continues;

      So my point was, that Steiner mentions Kariot in relation to Judas.
      I look up Kariot and find such a place, obscure, but very
      interesting. Now the name Judas Iskariot and what is known as
      APOCRYPHAL aspects of the unincluded texts of the history of the
      Bible, explain and practically knock one off ones chair, if one
      takes Steiner seriously. It is a great, great mistake if one doesn't
      take intelligence and the expanded research of Dr. Steiner
      seriously. It is a grave mistake. But that would mean reading with
      interest. Steiner says, legend, in regards to the Iskariot data, and
      we can define this as well as apocryphal, off the beaten track, but
      accurate text research and more historical than history.

      So in brief, what is missing in good reporting is following the
      story. Judas in more than a 'legend' is the 'rest of the story'
      digging up the dirt, that Judas and the name Kariot really refered
      to something interesting and suddenly we get this strange tale of
      how Judas was acting out a complete ancient Greek Oedipus event,
      which brings him right into the household of Pilate...(where do we
      get that little clue? Do we even have a clue of some of the more
      interesting offshoots of the stories behind some of these disciples?)

      Judas, kills Father, marries Mother, he is THE GREEATES SINNER and
      we assume that GREAT SINNER means because he betrayed Christ. No.
      Because he killed his Father and slept with his mother, then he
      betrayed Christ. So incorporated in the events of Golgotha are what
      would interest Steiner a great deal, how the Greek biographical
      potency of Oedipus played into the Golgotha event. Why, because if
      nothing else, Greek Michael Impulse is Steiner Impulse to the core.
      Here we are introduced to the missing puzzle piece. Judas was a
      GREAT SINNER.

      The pivotal event of Judas was that the Gods needed a Patsy, like
      Lee Harvey Oswald, the Gods needed a pivot who had truly, truly
      become an orphan and a homeless person and had nothing but the
      Christ. This is not to say that Lee Harvey did the shooting but he
      was a patsy.

      Let us look at Lazarus who is John, leaning his head on the breast
      of Christ. John lives only because the Christ heart is sustaining
      him. Let us look at the polarity of how Judas is also magnetically
      attracted to the only shelter and home that will sustain his life.
      The entirely new sun constellation formed of the brotherhood of the
      disciples ringed by the mighty forces of the Elohim Christ Being.
      The Gods place the enormous mystical burden that is depicted in the
      Oedipus Drama, on the shoulders of Judas. Lazarus sustained by
      Christ and Judas, takes refuge from the Storm of his soul with the
      disciples.

      Dylan:

      "In a world of steel-eyed death, and men who are fighting to be warm.
      "Come in," she said,
      "I'll give you shelter from the storm."

      Not a word was spoke between us, there was little risk involved
      Everything up to that point had been left unresolved.
      Try imagining a place where it's always safe and warm.
      "Come in," she said,
      "I'll give you shelter from the storm."

      I was burned out from exhaustion, buried in the hail,
      Poisoned in the bushes an' blown out on the trail,
      Hunted like a crocodile, ravaged in the corn.
      "Come in," she said,
      "I'll give you shelter from the storm."

      Bradford continues;

      The legend goes on beyond the death of Judas and comes down the road
      to the hard pressed and interesting Augustine. Augustine gets the
      model of the Etheric Body of the Christ, a truly wonderful gift and
      St. Augustine is the proof of the gift. (now here is again one of
      those blank spots where we have no appreciation of just what this
      entails)
      Augustine, according to another bomb dropped by Steiner was Judas
      Iskariot. This bomb is a megaload, but you have to be able to slowly
      piece together a puzzle. The only way to astonish oneself is to
      understand how the Dome and painting of the first Goetheanum and the
      research of Steiner is so illuminated by the Fact that Steiner had
      the model of the Astral body of Christ. This certainly is like the
      COUNTENANCE OF THE SUN as a Michael Fact. Again, this draws a blank,
      a blank as to richness of understanding what we are dealing with in
      history.

      Lets move forward to Dylan. Now I do not know who Dylan was. We do
      know that America during the Christ Rising of 1933 a prophet and
      poet called Woody Guthrie and Dylan took over the mantle of infusing
      the sixties generation, from Woody Guthrie. The generation Dylan
      spoke to were most capable of tranforming the Luciferic impulse into
      finding the Risen Christ, which is where this list comes in. Now the
      question, just the question to all this, as far as legend goes...
      Interests me, just to hold in my minds eye, in what direction I
      might detect why Dylan is Dylan? And if Dylan along with Guthrie
      spoke to the warm etheric forces, the social issues of good and evil
      that Augustine wrestled with?

      Maybe, as bold as to ask, in theory, the living words of Dylan and
      the conflicts of St. Augustine, his interior struggles in social
      etheric sense, in common spiritual sense, in the battle for
      understanding right and wrong in the etheric body of the sixties and
      bringing this as a transformed Augustine philosophy into the stream
      of the etheric bodies of the sixties, effectively changed social,
      etheric awareness. See, are we onto something here? A gift Dylan
      conveyed of seeing deeply past the illusion of what appears right
      and wrong.

      Well, the series of connections swept like lightening through my
      soul. Observing a stunning trail that makes what Steiner brought
      about Judas Iskariot, not a myth, but a legend and a historical
      factoid that stuns the soul with its intense deep reverberating
      insights that carry us all, deeper into the Christ event, and does
      something very different to how we understand aspects of Bob Dylan.

      But clearly, if we are Michael Students, as Steiner knew we would
      be, we would say to ourselves, how do we get from Judas to Augustine
      and where might it go fromt there? But how rich is the story, how
      stunning the elements already placed as road signs. Do we wish to
      read the road signs or remain numbed because we hate to admit it but
      WONDER, literally jars the Intellectual Soul off its horse.

      Now that, dear friends, Jarring the Intellectual Soul off its high
      horse, is exactly what Steiner did, time and time again. That is
      exactly what was the experience of St. Paul and Damascus and the
      area of Naplus is called, (little Damascus) is about. St. Paul was
      knocked off his high horse.

      That is exactly, the etheric code, the etheric phrase that was
      drummed into me by my very narrow christian upbringing. When ever I
      got interested or excited by something, my parents would literally
      say to me, as an insult, as they brought some minor infraction into
      glaring light, "that ought to knock you off your high horse!". This
      is an etheric gesture and an occult picture which is really and
      truly related to how the Intellectual Soul is so confident, arrogant
      and superior that it can be knocked off its high horse. This is what
      Steiner did with nearly every one of his lectures and profound
      insights. He knocked us right off our high conceited and arrogant
      horses or; on the other hand, we feel the raging urge to dismiss him
      so that he does not pollute and cripple the ahrimanic parasite I'm
      growing in my soul.
    • dottie zold
      Dear Bradford, I have always thought Judas got a bum rap after contempating how things went down with Satan entering after the bread sharing with Jesus, and of
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1, 2004
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        Dear Bradford,

        I have always thought Judas got a bum rap after
        contempating how things went down with Satan entering
        after the bread sharing with Jesus, and of course the
        feet washing as well which included Jesus, meaning
        that he has a part of Judas, and Judas He.

        And in knowing that Dr. Steiner, calls St. Augustine
        Judas, which I have not come across in my travels in
        his books, it would seem natural that Christ would
        give an imprint of Himself to the very one who ushered
        in Christianity: Judas.

        Can you please direct me to a book that speaks on
        these things regarding the Mother Father Son issue
        revolving around Judas. I have never heard of this
        before. But it does so fit in with the whole Isis
        mystery.

        If Christ can 'forgive' and even give of Himself to
        one who supposedly betrayed a human much loved by all
        imagine what we are called to in our daily lives.

        Dottie



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      • Mike Helsher
        ... Hey Dottie, your probably getting sick of me sending you Rembrandt pictures to look at, but check this one out any way:
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 1, 2004
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          > If Christ can 'forgive' and even give of Himself to
          > one who supposedly betrayed a human much loved by all
          > imagine what we are called to in our daily lives.
          >
          > Dottie

          Hey Dottie, your probably getting sick of me sending you Rembrandt pictures
          to look at, but check this one out any way:
          http://makeashorterlink.com/?O23221497

          Seems that Rembrandt had some kind of forgiveness in mind with this
          portrayal of Judas.

          All the best,

          Mike
        • dottie zold
          ... Hey Mike, I actually am getting to be fascinated by Rembrandt in a way. I love that you keep putting him in there for me to check out. He actually drew the
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 1, 2004
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            Mike wrote:
            > Hey Dottie, your probably getting sick of me sending
            > you Rembrandt pictures
            > to look at, but check this one out any way:
            > http://makeashorterlink.com/?O23221497
            >
            Hey Mike,

            I actually am getting to be fascinated by Rembrandt in
            a way. I love that you keep putting him in there for
            me to check out. He actually drew the one picture of
            Da Vinci's Last Supper that really bespeaks a cosmic
            understanding of great wealth. I am going to check out
            some more of Rembrandt as soon as I get a chance. What
            is the greatest of all Rembrandts work in your mind
            pertaining to the Christ?

            In looking at the picture offered up I am struck by
            the one surrounded by blinding light or actually is
            blinding light. What is that all about? Also I am
            confused to exactly who is being portrayed as Judas:
            is it the one in all black bent down to the left or
            the man to the right with his hands in the air. I
            checked out two different pictures on the site.

            In reading the gospels I clearly felt that Judas was
            set up in a way. Then I came to understand that Satan
            entered in 'after' Jesus okayed for it to be. It was
            on Jesus' word that the final leg of the journey began
            and it was with a little push from Jesus as well.
            Reminds me a moment of Job in that he was forsaken but
            this time it is to further the cause of Christ. Again
            I think we also might keep in mind the idea that Judas
            indeed was the greatest warrior of the Jewish
            Maccabbee family that ends the OT.

            Did you get a chance to check out the page I posted
            regarding the Beloved Disciple. The page with the
            Catholic scholar speaks to an interconnecting idea
            that dates back to the OT. I still haven't
            contemplated that yet but it is pretty interesting.

            All my love,
            Dottie



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          • Mike Helsher
            ... There are so many Dottie that it s hard to really chose. I am struck by one that I can t find online where the Christ-child is the only sorce of light in
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 1, 2004
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              Hi Dottie, You wrote:
              >What
              > is the greatest of all Rembrandts work in your mind
              > pertaining to the Christ?

              There are so many Dottie that it's hard to really chose. I am struck by one
              that I can't find online where the Christ-child is the only sorce of light
              in the painting.

              I also think that a study of his self-portriats over the course of his life,
              is a great example of him coming to know the Christ within himself.

              > In looking at the picture offered up I am struck by
              > the one surrounded by blinding light or actually is
              > blinding light. What is that all about? Also I am
              > confused to exactly who is being portrayed as Judas:
              > is it the one in all black bent down to the left or
              > the man to the right with his hands in the air. I
              > checked out two different pictures on the site.

              http://makeashorterlink.com/?O23221497

              Judas is the one kneeling with his hands clasped and if you can make it out,
              there is a look of anguish on his face. He has returned the silver coins to
              the treacherous Pharisees, some of which are shunning him, and others are
              looking at him in awe, as he begs for forgiveness. Here is a little excerpt
              from an essay that I wrote about him a couple of years ago that I called
              "Rembrandt and the evolution of Human freedom":

              "One of Rembrandt's early paintings is a profound example of the beginnings
              of the expression of his own inner freedom: "Judas returning the Thirty
              Pieces of silver" was painted when he was just 23 years old. Here is a
              picture that is not a typical portrayal of a Biblical theme. In the bottom
              center we see soft glancing light cast partially onto the silver pieces that
              have been strewn onto the floor by the obviously tormented Judas, who is
              kneeling and clutching his hands in anguish. The closest of the group of
              treacherous Pharisees who commissioned him is gesturing with his hand and
              turning his head in disgust, as he greedily discusses amongst his
              conspirators their recent triumph.

              Rembrandt's willingness to portray Judas in this manner shows us a not too
              common ability to see a traitor as a human being -- a human being who is in
              pain and obviously wishing to redeem himself. This is a prime example of an
              aspect of inner freedom. A freedom from the one-sidedness of condemnation,
              and also the freedom that is offered in the ability to forgive. That
              Rembrandt could portray this kind of empathy at such a young age is indeed
              astounding."

              > In reading the gospels I clearly felt that Judas was
              > set up in a way. Then I came to understand that Satan
              > entered in 'after' Jesus okayed for it to be. It was
              > on Jesus' word that the final leg of the journey began
              > and it was with a little push from Jesus as well.
              > Reminds me a moment of Job in that he was forsaken but
              > this time it is to further the cause of Christ. Again
              > I think we also might keep in mind the idea that Judas
              > indeed was the greatest warrior of the Jewish
              > Maccabbee family that ends the OT.

              Wow, I didn't know that. It ads quite the significance when you think of it
              like that.
              >
              > Did you get a chance to check out the page I posted
              > regarding the Beloved Disciple. The page with the
              > Catholic scholar speaks to an interconnecting idea
              > that dates back to the OT. I still haven't
              > contemplated that yet but it is pretty interesting.
              >
              I'm having so much trouble keeping up lately; could you paste it again for
              me.

              Thanks Dottie

              Truth and Love

              Mike
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