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Re: "On the 'anthroposophy and racism' hoax"

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  • Theodor Grekenquist
    ... I mentioned in an earlier post that I am not trying to be benign, but I think that Steiner was a benign person. Theodor Grekenquist http://www.skeptic.com/
    Message 1 of 29 , May 2, 2006
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      Hello Mike H, you wrote:

      >Well Theodore, I think I can muster up some empathy for your rather
      >"benign" attitude toward Her Doctor.

      I mentioned in an earlier post that I am not trying to be benign, but
      I think that Steiner was a benign person.


      Theodor Grekenquist
      http://www.skeptic.com/
    • elfuncle
      ... Theodor s critique of the Doctor doesn t look very benign to me. He regards Steiner s extraordinary faculties, that were acquired with tremendous labor and
      Message 2 of 29 , May 2, 2006
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        Mike H wrote to Theodor:

        > Well Theodore, I think I can muster up some empathy for your
        > rather "benign" attitude toward Her Doctor.

        Theodor's critique of the Doctor doesn't look very benign to me. He
        regards Steiner's extraordinary faculties, that were acquired with
        tremendous labor and intense struggle, as a mental illness, a
        pathology.

        There is, however, something very important for us to learn from this,
        I think. Theodor discards all attacks against Steiner's personal moral
        character and gets right to the very heart of the *real* objection
        against anthroposophy, an objection that has been widespread from the
        beginning but rarely voiced because one tends to be too respectful and
        considerate to say these things. It is the position held by all those
        who cling to the materialistic superstition based upon natural science
        alone. Religions and philosophies in general do not threaten this
        position because they are based upon blind faith and abstract
        speculations, but spirituality grounded in true scientific
        understanding arising from a waterproof epistemology fit for future
        centuries can make some people nervous if they are not 100 per cent
        convinced of their own materialistic world view. This is why I find it
        so interesting that Theodor emphasizes his conviction, that he is
        totally persuaded by the materialistic option. If he had not had this
        conviction, he would not have dared to study anthroposophy at all, or
        read anthroposophical email forums, without buying into those attacks
        against Steiner's ethics.

        Those who attack Steiner's personal character use racism and similar
        smears as excuses to dismiss his Weltanhschauung. By construing
        anthroposophy as something immoral and reprehensible, the lure of the
        epistemology itself is reduced and rendered harmless. I believe
        Theodor mentioned something like this in one of his posts.

        Cheers,

        Tarjei
      • Terence
        ... SNIP ... What we do not know is that Theodor read any of Steiner s books. The only mention of Steiner s books is that while as an counselor in a rehab he
        Message 3 of 29 , May 2, 2006
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          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <reefer@...> wrote:

          SNIP

          >If he had not had this conviction, he would not
          >have dared to study anthroposophy at all, or read
          >anthroposophical email forums, without buying into
          >those attacks against Steiner's ethics.

          What we do not know is that Theodor read any of
          Steiner's books. The only mention of Steiner's
          books is that while as an counselor in a rehab he
          saw a client reading Steiner. Theodor remains dumb
          as to what he has read of Steiner.

          To put together a comprehensive view of Steiner by
          only reading email forums is a stretch, in my view.

          Terence

          PS: For what it is worth, I took the day off from
          astrosophical practice so I have time to tickle the
          keys. I forgot how much time this takes.
        • Mike helsher
          ... this, ... moral ... the ... and ... those ... science ... it ... this ... or ... attacks ... similar ... the ... Thanks Tarjei for the clarification. I
          Message 4 of 29 , May 2, 2006
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
            <reefer@...> wrote:
            >
            > Mike H wrote to Theodor:
            >
            > > Well Theodore, I think I can muster up some empathy for your
            > > rather "benign" attitude toward Her Doctor.
            >
            > Theodor's critique of the Doctor doesn't look very benign to me. He
            > regards Steiner's extraordinary faculties, that were acquired with
            > tremendous labor and intense struggle, as a mental illness, a
            > pathology.
            >
            > There is, however, something very important for us to learn from
            this,
            > I think. Theodor discards all attacks against Steiner's personal
            moral
            > character and gets right to the very heart of the *real* objection
            > against anthroposophy, an objection that has been widespread from
            the
            > beginning but rarely voiced because one tends to be too respectful
            and
            > considerate to say these things. It is the position held by all
            those
            > who cling to the materialistic superstition based upon natural
            science
            > alone. Religions and philosophies in general do not threaten this
            > position because they are based upon blind faith and abstract
            > speculations, but spirituality grounded in true scientific
            > understanding arising from a waterproof epistemology fit for future
            > centuries can make some people nervous if they are not 100 per cent
            > convinced of their own materialistic world view. This is why I find
            it
            > so interesting that Theodor emphasizes his conviction, that he is
            > totally persuaded by the materialistic option. If he had not had
            this
            > conviction, he would not have dared to study anthroposophy at all,
            or
            > read anthroposophical email forums, without buying into those
            attacks
            > against Steiner's ethics.
            >
            > Those who attack Steiner's personal character use racism and
            similar
            > smears as excuses to dismiss his Weltanhschauung. By construing
            > anthroposophy as something immoral and reprehensible, the lure of
            the
            > epistemology itself is reduced and rendered harmless. I believe
            > Theodor mentioned something like this in one of his posts.
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Tarjei
            >


            Thanks Tarjei for the clarification. I often just blurt out stuff on
            this list in between family duties.

            What you write above is exactly where my thoughts were focused, I
            just didn't put any hard thinking into it at the time. Theodor"s
            perspective doesn't seem to be aimed to "harm" a scary and
            uncomfortable epistemology that could potentially uproot dogmatically
            orientated dualistic simplicity. He seems comfortable and confident
            in his materialistic convictions, and openly states what they are,
            and that his conclusions about Steiner being schizo are direct result
            of his personal conviction. I think that "attitude" to be
            somewhat "benign" in comparison to a hidden agenda that seeks to
            damage and destroy Steiner, and all that he brought to the world,
            through passive aggressive intellectually pin-headed propaganda smear
            tactics that associate him with the third Reich and the holocaust.

            For me there seems to be a kind of overarching "Moral candor" in the
            air with Theodor's meanderings. I don't mind much if people think
            that Steiner was loony; I still wonder about that myself. And, the
            most influential people throughout history were always thought to me
            crazy in some way, by a majority of people. I think Theodor has
            inadvertently stumbled across Rudolf Steiner's true Motive and
            intent, which is anything but dangerous unless twisted by a different
            individual with different motives and intent.

            And that's what Steiner so often pointed at in both his philosophical
            writings, and his anthroposophical writings: He challenges us to look
            at our individual Motives, and intent.

            A rational believer that leaves Steiner's Moral stature intact is
            fine by me. I would simply disagree with his diagnosis of Steiner
            being schizo, that's all. Mainly because I had a father that was
            diagnosed with that, and from what I can tell from his writings
            anyway, there is no way that Steiner compares to the schizo that
            raised me.

            Oh shit, now I'm musing: "the apple doesn't fall far from the
            tree"...:^O

            Mike
          • Terence
            ... SNIP ... Oi vai iz mir!! T
            Message 5 of 29 , May 2, 2006
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              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike helsher" <mhelsher@...> wrote:>

              SNIP

              > Oh shit, now I'm musing: "the apple doesn't fall far from the
              > tree"...:^O

              Oi vai iz mir!!

              T
            • winters_diana
              Tarjei; ... I think this is a mistaken analysis because I know too many of the dreaded critics whom it doesn t fit. I, for instance, am definitely not 100
              Message 6 of 29 , May 3, 2006
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                Tarjei;
                >There is, however, something very important for us to learn from
                >this, I think. Theodor discards all attacks against Steiner's
                >personal moral character and gets right to the very heart of the
                >*real* objection against anthroposophy, an objection that has been
                >widespread from the beginning but rarely voiced because one tends to
                >be too respectful and considerate to say these things. It is the
                >position held by all those who cling to the materialistic
                >superstition based upon natural science alone. Religions and
                >philosophies in general do not threaten this position because they
                >are based upon blind faith and abstract speculations, but
                >spirituality grounded in true scientific understanding arising from
                >a waterproof epistemology fit for future centuries can make some
                >people nervous if they are not 100 per cent convinced of their own
                >materialistic world view.

                >This is why I find it so interesting that Theodor emphasizes his
                >conviction, that he is totally persuaded by the materialistic
                >option. If he had not had this conviction, he would not have dared
                >to study anthroposophy at all, or read anthroposophical email
                >forums, without buying into those attacks against Steiner's ethics.

                I think this is a mistaken analysis because I know too many of the
                dreaded "critics" whom it doesn't fit. I, for instance, am definitely
                not "100 percent convinced" of a materialistic world view, and am not
                afraid of particular forms of spirituality, and yet I don't fit your
                analysis of Theodor's profile, either, since I think it's obvious
                certain of Rudolf Steiner's views were racist. Too many other critics
                don't fit this either. Most critics of Steiner or anthroposophy hold
                spiritual views of one sort or another, whether it's a mainstream
                religious affiliation or various other forms of New Age this and
                that. They just didn't agree with anthroposophy and resented having
                it imposed on their family.

                >Those who attack Steiner's personal character use racism and similar
                >smears as excuses to dismiss his Weltanhschauung.

                No, the two aren't connected. Actually, critics try to stay off
                Steiner's "personal character." I would say Theodor comes closer to
                personal character than most critics do. It's probably irrelevant
                whether Steiner was mentally ill, used various consciousness-altering
                substances, had repressed childhood traumas, or was a misunderstood
                creative genius, or a complete charlatan. I think the doctrines, and
                the institutions based on them today, are what are worth looking at.

                >By construing anthroposophy as something immoral and reprehensible,
                >the lure of the epistemology itself is reduced and rendered
                >harmless.

                Not for me. The doctrines continue to be very interesting to me.

                Diana
              • kmlightseeker
                Hi Theodor, ... I think there is a lot of interpetation involved, as is there is much speculation on received knowledge. The objections regarding Steiner s
                Message 7 of 29 , May 4, 2006
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                  Hi Theodor,


                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Theodor Grekenquist
                  <grekenquist@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > kmlightseeker wrote:
                  >
                  > >To accuse Rudolf Steiner of discrimination in places where he
                  > >resists neo-Darwinism, and to criminally condemn his scientific
                  > >discernments on physiology is incomprehensible. It is irrelevant
                  > >whether or not a scientific discernment might turn out to be incorrect.
                  >
                  > The argument about Rudolf Steiner was a racist, this is not only a
                  > contrived one. It is a groundless distraction from the problem with
                  > Steiner and Anthroposophy. I cannot help the suspicion that people
                  > who make many true observations and points about this man and his
                  > philosophy and his claims, blow the whole thing, ruin their good
                  > case, when they say that the man was racist and fascist and
                  > anti-Semitic. What I suspect is that people who say that Steiner was
                  > a racist and that Anthroposophy is racist, they repeat this losing
                  > position because they do not have the proper conviction of reality,
                  > like I have.


                  I think there is a lot of interpetation involved, as is there is much
                  speculation on received knowledge. The objections regarding Steiner's
                  claims are variously concerned with politics, science, history and so
                  on, so I don't see there being a singular or major focus on racism,
                  although it may be a dominant theme in criticism of Steiner. However,
                  perhaps I would agree with you by saying that I feel there is an
                  ideological element or commitment underlying convictions about reality
                  which can distort thinking or development of ideas or perception.


                  >
                  > By conviction of reality I mean confidence in my rational and
                  > scientific worldpicture. When you have that conviction, you can
                  > easily see that Rudolf Steiner was out to lunch from he was born. It
                  > is evident in his autobiography. It is in my view wrong to conclude
                  > he was a trickster. He was instead of a trickster, a schizophrenic
                  > delusionist and a "spiritual" megalomaniac (similar to whoever called
                  > himself Jesus Christ). These schizophrenic, delusional spiritual
                  > megalomaniacs come in two types: The benign and sympathetic ones, and
                  > the malignant and destructive ones. Jesus and Buddha belong to the
                  > former category. Hitler and Caligula belong to the latter category.
                  > Rudolf Steiner also belongs to the former category, and to claim that
                  > he was a racist or anti-Semite or fascist is either based on
                  > insufficient study of the person and his irrational ramblings, or it
                  > is because those who say they do not believe in his fantastic
                  > visions, are taken in by it but they deny and suppress their
                  > attraction to Steiner's academically seductive madness. So they try
                  > to make the monster go away by resorting to racism, anti-Semitism,
                  > and fascism. There is nothing "occult" or intangible about such
                  > traits. It is like when Francis from Assissi, one of the most benign
                  > schizophrenics in history, put ashes on his food so it should not
                  > taste good. Putting racism on Steiner is like having ashes on St
                  > Francis' dinner plate, to take away the good taste so one is not
                  seduced by it.


                  Like others have said in this and related recent threads I have doubts
                  about Steiner being schizophrenic, but at the same time I cannot rule
                  out the idea or possibility. We cannot do more than speculate about
                  the possibility of mental illness in Steiner, indicating parellels (as
                  if have in this thread) between expected disease symptoms and
                  characterisitics and the aspects of Steiner we have received in books.
                  This is not the same thing as a face to face diagnosis, I would think.

                  I would agree that people are to some degree seduced by Steiner's
                  thought, and feel antagonised when within themselves disillusionment
                  sets in about his teachings. Possibly this could lead to large efforts
                  to suppress a former influence or teacher/guru.


                  >
                  > There is no doubt in my mind that Steiner was not only benign and
                  > idelistic anti-racist who saw himself as a savior like Jesus. I see
                  > no evidence of deception in him. He believed his own wild fantasies
                  > since childhood. He probably had a bad and painful childhood,
                  > possibly with abuse that he suppressed and forgot. He never met his
                  > parents or siblings when he was grown up, it was too painful. The
                  > only thing he tells us is that he never played or had fun when a
                  > child, and he only began to play out his own childhood as a young
                  > tutor of children.

                  Well, with respect you could not know for sure whether he was
                  experiencing fantasies or not. You were not there, and you were not
                  him. It should be remembered that the age of modern science is only
                  300 years old compared to 3000/4000 plus years of civilization,
                  philosophy and religion/spirituality. The assumption that
                  materialistic science has final unequivicol authority on what is
                  reality and what is not is a flimsy one in my view. So, the sciences
                  of neurology, psychiatry and allied disciplines can make some claims,
                  but these are based on *beliefs* about reality, based on a mechanistic
                  foundation. Therefore, claims about Steiner's emotional and mental
                  state, made as they are after the fact and in line with certain ideas
                  about reality and not others, are shown to be somewhat less convincing
                  and helpful in understanding Steiner's thinking.


                  >
                  > This may explain why Steiner mixed all those childish fantasies into
                  > his scientific thinking. Fairy tales, poetry, and sunday school
                  > stories about Jesus. I do not understand why one is negative about
                  > Waldorf schools either, because Steiner was a kind and benevolent
                  > personality, and his world of fantasy is fun and good for children.
                  > He had a keen understanding of the science of his time and also of
                  > literature and philosophy. He could have been a very good scientist
                  > and scholar and philosopher too if he had not suffered from this
                  > "occult" schizophrenia. This disease may be infectious, so although I
                  > think there is nothing wrong having children in Waldorf, it is not
                  > good for all people to read Steiner's anthroposophy, especially when
                  > it makes them "anthros" to do so.


                  There is always the risk of a cultic following developing in such
                  situations. As far as the occult is concerned, it has a very long
                  tradition and history and with many varied manifestations and ideas -
                  it is not the exclusive providence of shysters or otherwise mistaken
                  people.


                  >
                  > I say let us look at the problem with Steiner and Anthroposophy for
                  > what it is: A case of schizophrenia matched with benign megalomania
                  > due to suppressed painful childhood experiences that made him project
                  > this suppressed childhood into his adult life and scientific
                  > thinking. It is not necessary to argue endlessly about racism and
                  > anti-Semitism and fascism, these are virtually non-existent and
                  > overshadowed by his rambling idealism about the brotherhood of man.
                  > The megalomaniac in him wanted to lift all of humanity out of misery
                  > into his own "heaven" or "spiritual world" where he could play school
                  > teacher for eternity. He sincerely believed in this fantasy so he was
                  > not a deceptive or bad person, only mad in a kind sort of way.


                  You have no independently observed and verified evidence that it was a
                  fantasy. You've utilised the tools of biography and history to make
                  scientific judgements, which can only be speculations and with the
                  possibility of inaccuracy and gaps in knowledge. But I agree he was
                  determined to make the world take a different course based on his
                  ideas, and that he was very much a huminatarian.


                  Regards,

                  Keith


                  >
                  >
                  > Theodor Grekenquist
                  > http://www.skeptic.com/
                  >
                • Theodor Grekenquist
                  ... This seems to be one of the reasons why there is much irrational hostility here against science-based reality check. Atheism is the default position of
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 4, 2006
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                    Keith wrote:

                    > perhaps I would agree with you by saying that I feel there is an
                    > ideological element or commitment underlying convictions about
                    > reality which can distort thinking or development of ideas or perception.

                    This seems to be one of the reasons why there is much irrational
                    hostility here against science-based reality check. Atheism is the
                    default position of science, but when this is pointed out,
                    fundamentalist philo-anthros come out of the woods with their "how
                    dare you " attitudes, and some of them go into hyperdefensive
                    interrogation mode.

                    >Like others have said in this and related recent threads I have
                    >doubts about Steiner being schizophrenic, but at the same time I
                    >cannot rule out the idea or possibility. We cannot do more than
                    >speculate about the possibility of mental illness in Steiner,
                    >indicating parellels (as if have in this thread) between expected
                    >disease symptoms and characterisitics and the aspects of Steiner we
                    >have received in books. This is not the same thing as a face to face
                    >diagnosis, I would think.
                    >
                    >I would agree that people are to some degree seduced by Steiner's
                    >thought, and feel antagonised when within themselves disillusionment
                    >sets in about his teachings.

                    That condition is not indicative of schizophrenia. Adherents of
                    religions display the same syndrome. They believe, have faith, in a
                    theology or notional system, which leaves room for doubt and
                    uncertainty like anything else we might believe in, and when their
                    object of faith is challenged, this gives rise to doubt and fear of
                    faith-loss resulting in antagonism and hostility.

                    I have observed other symptoms among certain candidates here on
                    Anthroposophy Tomorrow, however, that indicate semi-advanced stages
                    of philo-anthroposophical schizophrenia. I will refrain from
                    mentioning names, but it should be pointed out that the pathological
                    element consists of failing to distinguish between belief and
                    knowledge, and that the condition may be classified as semi-advanced
                    when the the afflicted individual in question is using his or her
                    fantasy as an encyclopedia for history, astro-physics, biology,
                    geology and so on and mixes this with a home-spun mythology. They put
                    the second world war before the first one and insert the landing of
                    space ships in between, chanting, "Beam Me Onboard, Doctor!" and then
                    they write their own firecracking apocalypses and Doomsday scenarios
                    and look down on real scientific achievers with contempt for being
                    "materialistic" and having "shrunken etheric bodies" the size of peas.

                    >Possibly this could lead to large efforts to suppress a former
                    >influence or teacher/guru.

                    They're certainly making large efforts to suppress all kinds of
                    things, and it wouldn't surprise me if there are some gurus too in
                    what Steiner called "the slime at the bottom of the soul."

                    >Well, with respect you could not know for sure whether he was
                    >experiencing fantasies or not. You were not there, and you were not him.

                    Ah my friend, when we weren't there ourselves, we must proceed
                    accurately and scientifically to find our answers, and is a lot to go
                    on. Steiner's sexual silence, Marie's oedipus complex, Ita's strange
                    dreams, their early Lucifer Cult that is still haunting the slime at
                    the bottom of philo-anthroposophical fundamentalist souls on this
                    list who are chanting for the Doctor to beam them onboard.

                    >It should be remembered that the age of modern science is only 300
                    >years old compared to 3000/4000 plus years of civilization,
                    >philosophy and religion/spirituality.

                    Exactly. That is why it takes time to root out all such religious and
                    spiritual superstition so we can put an end to wars and terrorism and
                    crime, they all happen because of religion and spiritism.

                    >The assumption that materialistic science has final unequivicol
                    >authority on what is reality and what is not is a flimsy one in my view.

                    It is not a question of authority, only of what is true. And we all
                    know that the world began with the Big Bang and that biological life
                    started with a primeval chemical soup, that there is no life without
                    biological cells and when you're deaqd, you're dead. Finito, end of
                    story. Nothing wrong with that, it's how it should be. And those who
                    want something more can turn to the sciences of the future like
                    bionics, cryonics, and space travel.

                    >So, the sciences of neurology, psychiatry and allied disciplines can
                    >make some claims, but these are based on *beliefs* about reality,
                    >based on a mechanistic foundation.

                    These sciences are based on physical reality reality that can be
                    seen, heard and touched and observed via instruments. It has nothing
                    whatsoever to do with fantasy or belief or mythology.

                    >Therefore, claims about Steiner's emotional and mental state, made
                    >as they are after the fact and in line with certain ideas about
                    >reality and not others, are shown to be somewhat less convincing and
                    >helpful in understanding Steiner's thinking.

                    Of course these studies are inconclusive, but Steiner's detalied
                    psychoanalysis and diagnosis will be published someday.

                    >As far as the occult is concerned, it has a very long tradition and
                    >history and with many varied manifestations and ideas - it is not
                    >the exclusive providence of shysters or otherwise mistaken people.

                    Occult means that people think they know what they only believe.
                    Occultists are therefore schizophrenic.


                    Theodor Grekenquist
                    http://www.skeptic.com/
                  • Joel Wendt
                    ... These are the myths of scientism, for which there is no empirical evidence. Here is demonstrated how thinking, which knows not its own origins in the
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 5, 2006
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                      Theodor Grekenquist wrote:

                      >
                      > It is not a question of authority, only of what is true. And we all
                      > know that the world began with the Big Bang and that biological life
                      > started with a primeval chemical soup, that there is no life without
                      > biological cells and when you're deaqd, you're dead. Finito, end of
                      > story. Nothing wrong with that, it's how it should be. And those who
                      > want something more can turn to the sciences of the future like
                      > bionics, cryonics, and space travel.
                      >
                      These are the myths of scientism, for which there is no empirical
                      evidence. Here is demonstrated how thinking, which knows not its own
                      origins in the depths of the mind (the soul/spirit inner nexus), can
                      lead to great confusion. The scientist uses a tool (his/her mind),
                      toward which she/he does not apply the processes of empirical
                      investigation - careful observation and clear logical thinking. With
                      this ill-used tool, the results can only be theories (fancies)
                      disconnected from reality, for by leaving an investigation of the mind
                      out of the picture, the scientist only develops knowledge of half the
                      problem.

                      Yes, the sense world needs to be investigated - rigorously. But the
                      tool used in the investigation must itself be just as rigorously
                      investigated. Otherwise it just puts out egregious bullshit of the kind
                      next quoted:

                      "I have observed other symptoms among certain candidates here on
                      Anthroposophy Tomorrow, however, that indicate semi-advanced stages
                      of philo-anthroposophical schizophrenia. I will refrain from
                      mentioning names, but it should be pointed out that the pathological
                      element consists of failing to distinguish between belief and
                      knowledge, and that the condition may be classified as semi-advanced
                      when the the afflicted individual in question is using his or her
                      fantasy as an encyclopedia for history, astro-physics, biology,
                      geology and so on and mixes this with a home-spun mythology. They put
                      the second world war before the first one and insert the landing of
                      space ships in between, chanting, "Beam Me Onboard, Doctor!" and then
                      they write their own firecracking apocalypses and Doomsday scenarios
                      and look down on real scientific achievers with contempt for being
                      "materialistic" and having "shrunken etheric bodies" the size of peas."

                      As someone with 18 years in the field of mental health, it is clear that
                      the author of these words is as ignorant of his own mind as he is of the
                      mind of anyone else.

                      warm regards,
                      joel
                    • grekenquist
                      ... clear that ... of the ... If you say things like that to your patients, I am glad I m not one of them. My own therapists have always been very
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 5, 2006
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                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt
                        <hermit@...> wrote:

                        > As someone with 18 years in the field of mental health, it is
                        clear that
                        > the author of these words is as ignorant of his own mind as he is
                        of the
                        > mind of anyone else.

                        If you say things like that to your patients, I am glad I'm not one
                        of them. My own therapists have always been very understanding,
                        respectful, and humble, but perhaps anthroposophical therapy is
                        supposed to be arrogant and condescending because the Doctor said so.

                        > warm regards,
                        > joel

                        I love you too, Joel, although your fellow anthroposophists think
                        that I am a cold, unloving and unfeeling robot with an "etheric
                        body" shrunk to the size of a pea. When the ignorance you accuse me
                        of is added to that, I guess my value as a human being is below that
                        old facility dung I have been reading about here.

                        Theodor Grekenquist
                        http://www.skeptic.com/
                      • Joel Wendt
                        Dear Theodor, I can only respond to what you write. You put a lot of at odds ideas in a single sentence, including disparaging remarks about anthroposophists
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 6, 2006
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                          Dear Theodor,

                          I can only respond to what you write. You put a lot of at odds
                          ideas in a single sentence, including disparaging remarks about
                          anthroposophists and Steiner. You create the picture others have of you
                          here.

                          Like most anthroposophists (and Steiner), we too are human beings,
                          flawed and real. But when you make your own remarks describing Steiner
                          as schizophrenic, and anthroposophists as believers in myths, then why
                          are you surprised when what you put out comes back to you.

                          What goes around comes around, does it not?

                          You also make big assumptions. You assume I have patients to whom I
                          speak and say things like I said to you. But you don't actually know
                          what it means when I say I have 18 years experience in mental health.
                          Let me give you a clue there.

                          You seem to conflate schizophrenia and multiple personality
                          disorder, two very distinct psychological states or "diseases".
                          Schizophrenia is clearly is dysfunction at the level of brain chemistry
                          (often resulting in hearing voices), while MPD, once a popular
                          diagnosis, has fallen into disrepute, and many now see it as a variation
                          on one or more character disorders (as well as a trap into which many
                          therapists, who only have master degrees in social work, have fallen).

                          The field of psychiatry and psychology, below the level of PhD, is
                          filled with many people who have no business treating other people.
                          MPD, along with the once assumed idea that every young woman with any of
                          the various eating disorders has been abused but repressed the memory,
                          seems to be more an invention of the poorly trained therapist then a
                          real condition of the mind.

                          Because the nature of mental therapies can lead to confusion about
                          objectivity, and the role of the therapist as a helper and support, it
                          has come about that the truth of the patient's mental state often slides
                          away. Poorly trained therapists will believe almost anything the
                          patient says (trying to be supportive), while the patients, especially
                          those with character disorders, will invent almost any symptom in order
                          to gain their secondary goals.

                          Even PhD therapists have difficulty here. I once saw a PhD doctor
                          accept as a patient a street whore who was (as usual) also a heroin
                          addict, and within a week the doctor had discovered she had 23
                          personalities. Of course, for this addict, she now had an official
                          excuse to refuse to confront her addiction, because it wasn't her fault
                          anymore, it was the fault of one of her "alternate personalities".

                          A secondary goal for someone with a character disorder is not
                          treatment or cure, but rather some other objective or pay off, which the
                          patient with the character disorder seeks. They become, in a very real
                          sense, co-dependent with the therapist, who feeds their need for seeing
                          themselves as "ill", while all the while the real goal is to have
                          something they can use to portray themselves as a victim and use that
                          victim-hood position in order to manipulate their environment.

                          You try to talk the talk, but give no evidence in this field of
                          being able to walk the walk, either as a patient or as someone in a
                          position to diagnose others.

                          Maybe you should leave this list and concentrate on your theraputic
                          needs. Someone serious about their treatment, and their own mental
                          health, will have no problem understanding this.

                          warm regards,
                          joel

                          grekenquist wrote:

                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt
                          > <hermit@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > As someone with 18 years in the field of mental health, it is
                          > clear that
                          > > the author of these words is as ignorant of his own mind as he is
                          > of the
                          > > mind of anyone else.
                          >
                          > If you say things like that to your patients, I am glad I'm not one
                          > of them. My own therapists have always been very understanding,
                          > respectful, and humble, but perhaps anthroposophical therapy is
                          > supposed to be arrogant and condescending because the Doctor said so.
                          >
                          > > warm regards,
                          > > joel
                          >
                          > I love you too, Joel, although your fellow anthroposophists think
                          > that I am a cold, unloving and unfeeling robot with an "etheric
                          > body" shrunk to the size of a pea. When the ignorance you accuse me
                          > of is added to that, I guess my value as a human being is below that
                          > old facility dung I have been reading about here.
                          >
                          > Theodor Grekenquist
                          > http://www.skeptic.com/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > SPONSORED LINKS
                          > Rudolf steiner
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Rudolf+steiner&w1=Rudolf+steiner&w2=Anthroposophy&w3=Occult&w4=Straight+from+the+heart&w5=Beyond+belief&w6=Occult+book&c=6&s=116&.sig=9246Q4QXtW6SFeXTDT1GeA>
                          > Anthroposophy
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Anthroposophy&w1=Rudolf+steiner&w2=Anthroposophy&w3=Occult&w4=Straight+from+the+heart&w5=Beyond+belief&w6=Occult+book&c=6&s=116&.sig=Kk1-kMaUm8bzwbM_C9IvzA>
                          > Occult
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Occult&w1=Rudolf+steiner&w2=Anthroposophy&w3=Occult&w4=Straight+from+the+heart&w5=Beyond+belief&w6=Occult+book&c=6&s=116&.sig=q6JE59rw8iL8N54E2ackMw>
                          >
                          > Straight from the heart
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Straight+from+the+heart&w1=Rudolf+steiner&w2=Anthroposophy&w3=Occult&w4=Straight+from+the+heart&w5=Beyond+belief&w6=Occult+book&c=6&s=116&.sig=FjO6ZXXC4c65BvtAAurXQg>
                          > Beyond belief
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=Rudolf+steiner&w2=Anthroposophy&w3=Occult&w4=Straight+from+the+heart&w5=Beyond+belief&w6=Occult+book&c=6&s=116&.sig=ioca_VAk_Ci1OFYl6zSyIg>
                          > Occult book
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Occult+book&w1=Rudolf+steiner&w2=Anthroposophy&w3=Occult&w4=Straight+from+the+heart&w5=Beyond+belief&w6=Occult+book&c=6&s=116&.sig=9CpAR6_REh7JRMW9QrhI3w>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                        • Judy Baumbauer
                          Dear Joel, What you write is very interesting. Do you ever come to Germany? I d love to have my husband meet you. He s a eurythmist who has (or thinks he has)
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 6, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Joel,
                            What you write is very interesting. Do you ever come to Germany? I'd love to have my husband meet you. He's a eurythmist who has (or thinks he has) MPD.
                            Warm regards,
                            Judy

                            Joel Wendt <hermit@...> schrieb:
                            Dear Theodor,

                            I can only respond to what you write. You put a lot of at odds
                            ideas in a single sentence, including disparaging remarks about
                            anthroposophists and Steiner. You create the picture others have of you
                            here.

                            Like most anthroposophists (and Steiner), we too are human beings,
                            flawed and real. But when you make your own remarks describing Steiner
                            as schizophrenic, and anthroposophists as believers in myths, then why
                            are you surprised when what you put out comes back to you.

                            What goes around comes around, does it not?

                            You also make big assumptions. You assume I have patients to whom I
                            speak and say things like I said to you. But you don't actually know
                            what it means when I say I have 18 years experience in mental health.
                            Let me give you a clue there.

                            You seem to conflate schizophrenia and multiple personality
                            disorder, two very distinct psychological states or "diseases".
                            Schizophrenia is clearly is dysfunction at the level of brain chemistry
                            (often resulting in hearing voices), while MPD, once a popular
                            diagnosis, has fallen into disrepute, and many now see it as a variation
                            on one or more character disorders (as well as a trap into which many
                            therapists, who only have master degrees in social work, have fallen).

                            The field of psychiatry and psychology, below the level of PhD, is
                            filled with many people who have no business treating other people.
                            MPD, along with the once assumed idea that every young woman with any of
                            the various eating disorders has been abused but repressed the memory,
                            seems to be more an invention of the poorly trained therapist then a
                            real condition of the mind.

                            Because the nature of mental therapies can lead to confusion about
                            objectivity, and the role of the therapist as a helper and support, it
                            has come about that the truth of the patient's mental state often slides
                            away. Poorly trained therapists will believe almost anything the
                            patient says (trying to be supportive), while the patients, especially
                            those with character disorders, will invent almost any symptom in order
                            to gain their secondary goals.

                            Even PhD therapists have difficulty here. I once saw a PhD doctor
                            accept as a patient a street whore who was (as usual) also a heroin
                            addict, and within a week the doctor had discovered she had 23
                            personalities. Of course, for this addict, she now had an official
                            excuse to refuse to confront her addiction, because it wasn't her fault
                            anymore, it was the fault of one of her "alternate personalities".

                            A secondary goal for someone with a character disorder is not
                            treatment or cure, but rather some other objective or pay off, which the
                            patient with the character disorder seeks. They become, in a very real
                            sense, co-dependent with the therapist, who feeds their need for seeing
                            themselves as "ill", while all the while the real goal is to have
                            something they can use to portray themselves as a victim and use that
                            victim-hood position in order to manipulate their environment.

                            You try to talk the talk, but give no evidence in this field of
                            being able to walk the walk, either as a patient or as someone in a
                            position to diagnose others.

                            Maybe you should leave this list and concentrate on your theraputic
                            needs. Someone serious about their treatment, and their own mental
                            health, will have no problem understanding this.

                            warm regards,
                            joel

                            grekenquist wrote:

                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > > As someone with 18 years in the field of mental health, it is
                            > clear that
                            > > the author of these words is as ignorant of his own mind as he is
                            > of the
                            > > mind of anyone else.
                            >
                            > If you say things like that to your patients, I am glad I'm not one
                            > of them. My own therapists have always been very understanding,
                            > respectful, and humble, but perhaps anthroposophical therapy is
                            > supposed to be arrogant and condescending because the Doctor said so.
                            >
                            > > warm regards,
                            > > joel
                            >
                            > I love you too, Joel, although your fellow anthroposophists think
                            > that I am a cold, unloving and unfeeling robot with an "etheric
                            > body" shrunk to the size of a pea. When the ignorance you accuse me
                            > of is added to that, I guess my value as a human being is below that
                            > old facility dung I have been reading about here.
                            >
                            > Theodor Grekenquist
                            > http://www.skeptic.com/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > SPONSORED LINKS
                            > Rudolf steiner
                            >
                            > Anthroposophy
                            >
                            > Occult
                            >
                            >
                            > Straight from the heart
                            >
                            > Beyond belief
                            >
                            > Occult book
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            > * Visit your group "anthroposophy_tomorrow
                            > " on the web.
                            >
                            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > anthroposophy_tomorrow-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > Service .
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >



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                          • Joel Wendt
                            ... Dear Judy, I don t travel well (age 65 and much overweight), so Germany is not on the radar. Was there once over 40 years ago, while in the Air Force (met
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 6, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Judy Baumbauer wrote:

                              > Dear Joel,
                              > What you write is very interesting. Do you ever come to Germany? I'd
                              > love to have my husband meet you. He's a eurythmist who has (or thinks
                              > he has) MPD.
                              > Warm regards,
                              > Judy
                              >

                              Dear Judy,

                              I don't travel well (age 65 and much overweight), so Germany is not
                              on the radar. Was there once over 40 years ago, while in the Air Force
                              (met an interesting woman in Berlin, got drunk in a beer hall in Munich,
                              and gambled in Garmisch).

                              We do have an inner life that is rich in variation of mood and train
                              of thought. Between our i-AM, the double-complex, and the variety of
                              life experience that confronts us daily (and often much too rapidly for
                              serious reflection), our soul produces many ways of wise being in
                              response. Walt Whitman wrote somewhere in Leaves of Grass something on
                              the order of: "If I contradict myself, it is because I am multitudes".

                              In my own investigations of inner life, as well as many years
                              intimate contact with so-called "emotionally disturbed" folks, it seems
                              clear to me that MPD is a term we get from our culture that doesn't
                              adequately connect to our real inner nature. Perhaps your husband needs
                              to read Kuhlewind's "From Normal to Healthy", which contains practical
                              spiritual guidance for how to meet the seeming chaos of our inner life
                              and find its true nature.

                              Anyone here know this book well?

                              warm regards,
                              joel
                            • Mike helsher
                              ... I d love to have my husband meet you. He s a eurythmist who has (or thinks he has) MPD. ... Hello there Judy, Oh the disorders made to order these days!
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 6, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Judy Baumbauer
                                <judy.baumbauer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Joel,
                                > What you write is very interesting. Do you ever come to Germany?
                                I'd love to have my husband meet you. He's a eurythmist who has (or
                                thinks he has) MPD.
                                > Warm regards,


                                Hello there Judy,

                                Oh the disorders made to order these days!

                                You remind me of someone? They used to call me "Moody Mike" remember?

                                Mike
                              • Judy Baumbauer
                                Mike helsher schrieb: --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Judy Baumbauer ... I d love to have my husband meet you. He s a
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 6, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Mike helsher <mhelsher@...> schrieb:
                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Judy Baumbauer
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Joel,
                                  > What you write is very interesting. Do you ever come to Germany?
                                  I'd love to have my husband meet you. He's a eurythmist who has (or
                                  thinks he has) MPD.
                                  > Warm regards,


                                  Hello there Judy,

                                  Oh the disorders made to order these days!

                                  You remind me of someone? They used to call me "Moody Mike" remember?

                                  Mike
                                  J: No.

                                  Judy




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                                • Theodor Grekenquist
                                  ... So far, schi8zophrenia and myths have not come back to me. I will explain the relationship between Steiner s illusions and his followers myths below. ...
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 6, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Joel, you wrote:

                                    >But when you make your own remarks describing Steiner as
                                    >schizophrenic, and anthroposophists as believers in myths, then why
                                    >are you surprised when what you put out comes back to you.

                                    So far, schi8zophrenia and myths have not come back to me. I will
                                    explain the relationship between Steiner's illusions and his
                                    followers' myths below.

                                    >You also make big assumptions. You assume I have patients to whom I
                                    >speak and say things like I said to you.

                                    Yes, I thought it might be part of your technique. Bury them first,
                                    crush their egos, and then rebuild them afterwards. The bootcamp approach.

                                    >But you don't actually know what it means when I say I have 18 years
                                    >experience in mental health.

                                    Wow.

                                    >You seem to conflate schizophrenia and multiple personality
                                    >disorder, two very distinct psychological states or "diseases".

                                    Steiner suffered from the former, like John Nash. I have had my share
                                    of problems with the latter, and I still do.

                                    John Nash was pursued by an imaginary room mate from Princeton, his
                                    little niece, and a G-man and his Pentagon staff. If Nash had held
                                    lectures about these characters being real but only visible to
                                    "clairvoyants" like himself, his students would have been believers in myth.

                                    Rudolf Steiner was not followed around by two men and a little girl,
                                    but instead by astral and etheric bodies, Lucifer and Ahriman and
                                    ghosts and nature spirits. But instead of facing his illusions for
                                    what they were, he sought to make them real by concocting a home-spun
                                    epistemology. It looks as if he started this project at a young age
                                    to cure himself, or to recognize his illusions the way John Nash did,
                                    but in the process he did not succeed in writing off his
                                    hallucinations, so he came to claim that "monism" should include
                                    dreams and visions because they were "empirical".

                                    >The field of psychiatry and psychology, below the level of PhD, is
                                    >filled with many people who have no business treating other people.

                                    The man who treated me in India, dr. Masaro Delitsu from Tokyo, had
                                    his PhD, but he told me that he knew of much better therapists than
                                    himself who did not have a university education. They were Zen
                                    Buddhists, and you of all people should recognize this, because they
                                    were considered "initiates" in the old days.

                                    Personally, I am an atheist, but if I should turn to a religion, it
                                    would have to be Buddhism, which is not theistic.

                                    >Poorly trained therapists will believe almost anything the patient
                                    >says (trying to be supportive), while the patients, especially those
                                    >with character disorders, will invent almost any symptom in order to
                                    >gain their secondary goals.

                                    Fortunately, dr. Delitsu was a very experienced and shrewd therapist
                                    who did not take any bullshit from me. He didn't really have to,
                                    because I am not much of a bullshitter, but I was evasive at first
                                    because I did not trust him.

                                    >Even PhD therapists have difficulty here. I once saw a PhD doctor
                                    >accept as a patient a street whore who was (as usual) also a heroin
                                    >addict, and within a week the doctor had discovered she had 23
                                    >personalities. Of course, for this addict, she now had an official
                                    >excuse to refuse to confront her addiction, because it wasn't her
                                    >fault anymore, it was the fault of one of her "alternate personalities".

                                    I am not like that today. I take full responsibility for what my
                                    personalities are doing. One of these personalities I call Billy, but
                                    he has no name because he tends to adopt the characteristics of
                                    people I meet, also online. I have apologized privately to another
                                    list member for Billy's recent behavior.

                                    I feel for that prostitute you mention who suffered from heavy drug
                                    addiction in addition to struggling with as many personalities as I
                                    first hade before I was treated. That is a very big burden to carry
                                    around all at once. I have not swuffered from drug addiction, but I
                                    have enjoyed the privilege of counselling such people. And the most
                                    effective Zen-techniques to snap such people out of their misery are
                                    things I learned from dr. Delitsu. Things may get dramatic sometimes,
                                    and it happens that arms or legs are broken in the process, but if
                                    it's done expertly, you may save up to eight or nine months of
                                    laborious treatment time that way. Zen is like a shock, and it should
                                    be felt like an electric charge, hurling you across the room and into
                                    a brick wall if necessary.

                                    >A secondary goal for someone with a character disorder is not
                                    >treatment or cure, but rather some other objective or pay off, which
                                    >the patient with the character disorder seeks. They become, in a
                                    >very real sense, co-dependent with the therapist, who feeds their
                                    >need for seeing themselves as "ill", while all the while the real
                                    >goal is to have something they can use to portray themselves as a
                                    >victim and use that victim-hood position in order to manipulate
                                    >their environment.

                                    That was a secondary effect of dr. Delitsu's "out to lunch"
                                    treatment. It prevented me from becoming dependent on him and
                                    manipulate his goodwill, and I have successfully applied the same
                                    techique with some of my drug patients.

                                    >You try to talk the talk, but give no evidence in this field of
                                    >being able to walk the walk, either as a patient or as someone in a
                                    >position to diagnose others.

                                    I do not wish to treat anyone here for pathologies or disorders, and
                                    I am not here for therapy either.

                                    >Maybe you should leave this list and concentrate on your theraputic needs.

                                    I have been subscribing to this list for two years, for the most part
                                    lurking until very recently, and dr. Delitsu believes that it is good
                                    for my further education as a counsellor to study anthroposophical
                                    problems in this way. If you want to voice your opinion to him, I
                                    should be able to get you guys in touch. That may be a good idea,
                                    because I believe dr. Delitsu may be able to help you too, Joel, with
                                    your own problems.

                                    Best wishes,

                                    Theodor Grekenquist
                                    http://www.skeptic.com/
                                  • Judy Baumbauer
                                    Theodor Grekenquist schrieb: Ted (may I call you that?) Do you think Dr. Delitsu could treat my husband. He has 3 extra
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 6, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Theodor Grekenquist <grekenquist@...> schrieb:
                                      Ted (may I call you that?) Do you think Dr. Delitsu could treat my husband. He has 3 extra personalities - Max, Moritz and Albert. If Dr. Delitsu doesn't come to Germany, I might be able to convince my husband to go to India, as long as he doesn't have to do yoga. He tried it once and it almost killed Max.
                                       
                                      Warm regards,
                                      Judy

                                      I have been subscribing to this list for two years, for the most part
                                      lurking until very recently, and dr. Delitsu believes that it is good
                                      for my further education as a counsellor to study anthroposophical
                                      problems in this way. If you want to voice your opinion to him, I
                                      should be able to get you guys in touch. That may be a good idea,
                                      because I believe dr. Delitsu may be able to help you too, Joel, with
                                      your own problems.

                                       


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                                    • Mike T
                                      Ya gotta be kiddin me HA! Mike T ... _________________________________________________________________ New year, new job – there s more than 100,00 jobs at
                                      Message 18 of 29 , May 6, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Ya gotta be kiddin me HA!
                                        Mike T


                                        >From: Judy Baumbauer <judy.baumbauer@...>
                                        >Reply-To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                        >To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: "On the 'anthroposophy and
                                        >racism' hoax"
                                        >Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 02:49:44 +0200 (CEST)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Theodor Grekenquist <grekenquist@...> schrieb: Ted (may I call you
                                        >that?) Do you think Dr. Delitsu could treat my husband. He has 3 extra
                                        >personalities - Max, Moritz and Albert. If Dr. Delitsu doesn't come to
                                        >Germany, I might be able to convince my husband to go to India, as long as
                                        >he doesn't have to do yoga. He tried it once and it almost killed Max.
                                        >
                                        > Warm regards,
                                        > Judy
                                        >
                                        >I have been subscribing to this list for two years, for the most part
                                        >lurking until very recently, and dr. Delitsu believes that it is good
                                        >for my further education as a counsellor to study anthroposophical
                                        >problems in this way. If you want to voice your opinion to him, I
                                        >should be able to get you guys in touch. That may be a good idea,
                                        >because I believe dr. Delitsu may be able to help you too, Joel, with
                                        >your own problems.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >---------------------------------
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                                      • Judy Baumbauer
                                        Mike T schrieb: Ya gotta be kiddin me HA! Mike T I wasn t talking to you, Mr. Mike T. Knowitall. Judy ... Telefonieren Sie ohne
                                        Message 19 of 29 , May 7, 2006
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                                          Mike T <leosun_75@...> schrieb:
                                          Ya gotta be kiddin me HA!
                                          Mike T

                                          I wasn't talking to you, Mr. Mike T. Knowitall.
                                          Judy


                                          Telefonieren Sie ohne weitere Kosten mit Ihren Freunden von PC zu PC!
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                                        • dottie zold
                                          OOoooh I smell the blood of a....well, a greekmum:) ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the
                                          Message 20 of 29 , May 7, 2006
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                                            OOoooh I smell the blood of a....well, a greekmum:)

                                            --- Judy Baumbauer <judy.baumbauer@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Mike T <leosun_75@...> schrieb: Ya gotta
                                            > be kiddin me HA!
                                            > Mike T
                                            >
                                            > I wasn't talking to you, Mr. Mike T. Knowitall.
                                            > Judy
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---------------------------------
                                            > Telefonieren Sie ohne weitere Kosten mit Ihren
                                            > Freunden von PC zu PC!
                                            > Jetzt Yahoo! Messenger installieren!


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