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Re: Celebrating RS Death Day (Enneagram)

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  • tmasthenes13
    ... considered ... mystic ... as ... am a ... destined ... called ... time ... of ... Ouspensky. ... etheric ... have ... Steve, Great stuff about the
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 1, 2006
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      Steve Hale wrote:
      >
      > It is very interesting that you complete your thought with this
      > reference to the enneagram. I wonder how many people have
      considered
      > that the dodecahedron and the enneagram represent the two great
      mystic
      > symbols of the 20th century. The former refers to the model of man
      as
      > universal human, and latter to the concept of self-remembering. I
      am a
      > five in this life, which means I was a seven in my last, and
      destined
      > to be an eight in my next. This model was built when Michael
      called
      > forth the folk soul of the Russian people 1500 years in advance of
      > Philadelphia. And this occurred in May of 1915, right about the
      time
      > that Gurdjieff sat down with Ouspensky at a cafe in Moscow. He was
      > Pythagoras in a former life, but I suspect you might know that;
      > initiated directly by Zarathos, Gurdjieff would have remembrances
      of
      > being related to Zarathustra throughout his great and painstaking
      > work, "Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson".
      >
      > His task was to offload to an intellectual, thus his need for
      Ouspensky.
      > In short, Steiner brought the astral stream of old to meet the
      etheric
      > stream of old in the form of the Russian folk soul's calling from
      > Michael. And when someone can put these two together, then you
      have
      > something.
      ---------------------------------------


      Steve,

      Great stuff about the enneagram, especially about the polarity
      between the dodecahedron and the enneagram, the 12 and the 9, but
      actually it's the 3 x 3 as well as the Law of Seven. Also, the 12ness
      represents Space and the Nine-ness seems to represent Time, perhaps
      redeeming Kant's a priori categories for us all.

      I like David Eyes article here:
      http://www.awakenings.com/properties/threeandseven/

      Myself being a 9, and having just passed through Steiner's 9 by 9 =
      81st death day, I can see my obsession with all things hierarchical.

      It may be difficult for some here to realize that I live out the 9
      characteristic of being a peacemaker or mediator. The problem is that
      the core issue of anger for the 8, the 9 and the 1 is anything but
      peaceful.

      I have found the enneagram to be the best way of learning how to
      judge people --- insofar as it allows us to "take the beam out of our
      own eyes" so that we can learn how to judge our brothers and sisters
      properly.

      As for Gurdjieff, I wonder if you could shed some light on
      some "anthropoop" I overheard in AP circles, about G in relation to
      Steiner.

      I heard that one time Gurdjieff paid a visit to the Goetheanum, but
      when Steiner heard about it, he became livid, and actually had to be
      physically restrained from attacking G. The reason apparently was
      that RS did not want all the evil, nasty, egregore-type entities in
      G's "astral body entourage" to contaminate the pristine etheric
      spiritual atmosphere of the Goetheanum.

      (Usually there's some grain of truth in anthropoop, you
      know, "There's got to be a pony around here somewhere.")

      In mentioning reincarnating and the 9-gram, you give a sequence for
      yourself of 7-5-8, which is the reverse order of the decimal digit
      expansion of the repeating fraction 6/7 = .857142.......

      However, the 7 aspect of the 9-gram does not include the Trinity of
      digits: 3,6,9.

      So, if I am a 9 in this life, what, pray tell, is my past life number
      and what will be my next one? (I hope I'm not destined to keep
      chasing my bushy Buddha tail around the 3-6-9 trianglular "wheel of
      karma" (Wankel Engine of Destiny???) now, am I?)

      Thank you for your hierarchical help. We could all use lessons in
      self-remembering as we fondle our respective dodecahedrons..

      Tom
    • tmasthenes13
      ... then ... buddies ... their ... around ... Yo Mike! Thanks for appreciating my metaphors. I always loved the upgrade that Marshall McLuhan gave to the
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 1, 2006
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        Mike Helser wrote:

        > If RS was right, and sex and Love are indeed mutually exclusive,
        then
        > maybe that's why he left us a corps to feed on. My X Buddhist
        buddies
        > were always be meditating of death and rotting corpses to quell
        their
        > sexual desires. Perhaps if we weren't all buzzing and crawling
        around
        > this corps, we'd all be out sport-fucking like crazey..:-O
        >
        > fascinating!
        ------------------------------

        Yo Mike!

        Thanks for appreciating my metaphors. I always loved the upgrade that
        Marshall McLuhan gave to the statement made 2 centuries ago by the
        great Limey poet Robert Browning:

        "Man's reach must exceed his grasp, or else, what's a heaven for?"

        Mercurial oracle Marshy Mac Luhan changed that to:

        "Man's reach must exceed his grasp, or else what's a metaphor?"

        Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk!

        Anyway, I must first give you a short lesson in speaking the dialect
        of Classical Anthroposophese. You expressed yourself in the rather
        coarse vernacular, using the term "sport-fucking."

        The f-word in Classical Anthroposophese is not 4 letters, but 8, to
        wit: "fructify." So, in future anthro-social gatherings, be they 3-
        fold or not, or whether here online or in an actual study group, you
        might try impressing your comrades by saying: "sport-fructification"
        or "sport-fructifying" or even the most formal expression of
        all: "undergoing a process, as it were, of sport-fructification."

        I am fascinated, in a very Spock-like way (and I could be subtly
        referring here to Benjy's sister Marjorie), with your correlation
        between meditating on corpses and quelling those rather insistent
        desires of a fructifactory nature. I assume you may be referring to
        the Hindu vow of "brahmacharya," which is not just sexual celibacy,
        but refraining from eating meat and other coarse sensual stuff. But
        all that seems to be such a "guy thing" and also pretty atavistic.

        But the truth is, I could actually more easily imagine my own
        parents "undergoing, as it were, a process of mutual fructifcation"
        than I ever could imagine Rudolf Steiner playing "hide the pickle"
        with any woman, be it Marie the Dour, or even Lovely Ita, Ita babe,
        (sing it: ". . . where would I be without you? Give us a wink and
        make me think of you. . . . Lovely Ita, Ita-babe!).

        (I was once exiled from a study group in Tennessee when an old S98
        post of mine surfaced where I had speculated on the idea that the
        real love of Rudy's life was not Marie, but Ita! Sigh! Ah, so much
        for neo-Platonic romanticism. )

        So here we have this unsettling, disquieting possibility that the
        entire corpus (not corpse now) of anthroposophy, the entire
        Gesamtausgabe, could have been founded on the repression of Rudolf
        Steiner's fructificatorial urges. But wait, there is a new sexual
        revolution going on and Rudolf Steiner may someday be canonized as
        the patron saint of this very "brahmacharyan" movement called
        ASEXUALITY. Check out this website for info
        http://www.asexuality.org/info.htm

        After all, since the asexuals have a T-shirt now, then they have to
        be an official and bona fide social movement, right? Now check out
        their Yahoo group, which you can read without subscribing as you can
        with A_T
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/havenforthehumanamoeba/messages

        As of today they have 589 members, as compared to 232 on A_T.

        Oh and their slogan on the T-shirt reads:

        ASEXUALITY: NOT JUST FOR AMOEBAS ANYMORE!

        But now back to repression. Years ago, in the heyday of Steiner98,
        the erudite techno-scholar William Irwin Thompson happened to fall
        down the rabbit hole of S98. I had accused him then of calling
        Steiner queer. While dusting himself off, Billy, aka, WIT, related
        to us that it was not he, but rather the New Age historian Rick
        Tarnas, who had actually made the remark that he thought Rudolf
        Steiner was a "repressed homosexual."

        Now, when the angels let me, I will pontificate on the spiritual-
        scientific principles of homosexuality. But they involve the rather
        complicated cross-pollination, as it were, (even cross-dressing? )
        No, better say, cross-weaving, as it were, of the male and female
        etheric-physical sheathes analogous to the way vision works through
        the optic chiasma. Interestingly enough, the phenomenon, as far as I
        can surmise --- with a straight face and a flaccid "lower larynx," as
        it were --- is neither genetic nor karmic in origin. However, if you
        would like to observe Goetheanistically, the phenomena of gayness and
        lesbianhood, do go out and see the movie Transamerica, where Felicity
        Huffman won the best Actress Oscar for portraying a pre-operative
        transsexual man becoming a woman.

        (For if you can catch such a person, before he, makes the,
        er, "final cut," as it were, then much may be clarified in the
        seer's (or is it sneer's?") inner spiritual perception of the inter-
        twining astral-etheric-physical mysteries of the male and female. I
        blush as I report this, but I must say, in all candor, that my
        Goetheanistic observations --- seeing in thinking and thinking in
        seeing --- of pre-op trannies, (known more colorfully as "chicks with
        dicks") were simultaneously the most titillating and penetrating
        clairsentient experiences of the entire course of my post-pubescent
        life!)

        Anyway, this whole Transamerica phenomenon, so mainstream out here in
        the City of Angels, has inspired me to ask the most profound
        questions of spiritual science I have come up with to date:

        Does size matter in counterspace?

        But now, let's get back home to the A_T group here. Robert Sardello
        also fell down the S98 rabbit hole, and he gave us a fascinating
        discussion of the sexual forces inherent on the Internet, which he
        termed "cyber-dildonics." I agreed with him and pointed to the work
        of Marshall McLuhan, who wrote about how the medium itself gradually
        changes the content of the medium to express itself more honestly and
        genuinely. (For example, when the movie medium first started, its
        content was of live plays and opera; today, the content of movies is
        much more determined by the actual medium of movies itself.)

        So, given that we appear to each other here only through e-mail
        messages, sans physical body contact, sans voice contact, sans
        images; and, given that the essence/energy of this electronic medium
        is of the fallen light and sound ethers, well, that's a lot of
        filtering out.

        What does come across very well is the ego and astral bodies; what is
        filtered out the most is the physical body and to a large extent the
        etheric. But, relatively speaking, I have noticed that over time,
        when we get to know each other through repeated conversations, our
        etheric bodies, which carry memory and habit, become strengthened.

        The result is that we tune into each other more on an etheric level
        than on a physical one. So you know what that means. It means that we
        physical guys exhibit on this list our female etheric side, while the
        physical ladies on this list, exhibit their more masculine etheric
        characteristics.

        I mean, look at the discussions that go on here. By and large, the
        issues that excite the guys, are all expressed in a very measured
        criss-crossing back and forth cyber-motion that always reminds me of
        a bunch of old ladies sitting around together gossiping at a church
        quilting bee. Notice how carefully the guys weave the patches and
        guide the patchwork of etheric quilt of whatever subject is being
        discussed. This is especially apparent when the critics get involved.

        On the other side, when the ladies, those etheric hunks of macho men,
        swagger in with their formidable astral cockleberries showing through
        their etheric codpieces, all they have to do is say one word, and
        they cut through all the quilting bullshit and send the giddy old
        ladies into a near hysterical tizzy.

        Finally, to get back to Buffalo Bob Sardello's idea of dildonics, my
        other picture of this A_T group is that of a cyber bordello, where
        Tarjei is the owner and Frank is the Madam. We physical guys are the
        etheric "girls of the evening" as it were, and the physical ladies
        are the etheric male clients, or "Johns" (Johannesses?) Most of the
        entertainment consists of us etheric girlie-men doing striptease on
        center stage. I myself am of the conservative old school, using the
        fans like Sally Rand used to do. And occasionally I do swing around
        that new-fangled pole.

        Now this latter metaphor is for Joel's benefit. Joel, I must tell
        you, you do have a nice pair of etheric hooters; you even have a
        nicely shaped etheric ass, and you have done so much admirable work
        in PoF and epistemology that the average John, or, Johannes, would
        select you over so many others in the "stable." I mean, you really
        know how to swing around that pole and get those dollar bills stuffed
        into your Native American motif G-strings, etc., but… but… you are
        violating a certain decorum of the bordello and I do believe you will
        improve your attitude once I tell you about this. So consider this an
        intervention of sorts, a kind of Texas 2-step around the pole.

        Joel, if you would just come up on stage and do your striptease
        routine like every other girlie-man here, everything would be fine.
        But instead, you have the chutzpah, I guess it's some kind of
        entitlement issue, where you come on stage and you take the bloody
        dildo-lance of Amfortas and start immediately thrusting it into your
        lower etheric sheath, and as if that weren't gross enough public
        behavior, you actually feel entitled to payment from the customers,
        for forcing them to watch your your vaunted spiritual experience of
        the last third of a century.

        Why even, Martha, with her New Mexican 10 gallon hat jauntily cocked,
        as it were, told you in direct terms to stop with your autobiography
        already. Listen to her, already! (Doesn't Martha remind you a lot of
        Gary Cooper in High Noon? "Do not forsake me oh, my darling!...)

        In other words, Joel, do come on stage and give us a nice striptease
        about your experience, but please don't use your experience as a
        dildo to pleasure yourself and expect not to be thrown out of the
        bordello.

        OK, Mike, I'll end here. This should be more than enough to spark
        discussion around the pole,or is it more patches for the quilting
        bee? (As it were. )

        Thomasina in the etheric
      • ishtarmustdie
        The great achievement of the 4th Way system, given from the outset by Ouspensky, who said the system was important because it wasn t his, consists of the
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 2, 2006
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          "The great achievement of the 4th Way system, given from the outset
          by Ouspensky, who said the system was important because it wasn't
          his, consists of the integrality of the Law of Three with the Law of
          Seven. It is imperative to give note to this important interaction;
          that we must take account of the working of the Law of Three, which
          has been born out of the Law of Seven. In actuality, Aristotle
          discovered the working presence of the Law of Three over 2300 years
          ago. He discovered that nature bears three reflective spheres of
          activity; the mineral, plant, and animal kingdoms. As such, they
          reflect and coincide exactly with the Higher Worlds, known as Upper
          Devachan, Lower Devachan, and the Astral Plane. Based on this
          discovery, Aristotle, after spending 20 years in Plato's Academy,
          and then instructing the young Alexander the Great for eight years,
          started a school designed to address the facts and significance of
          the Law of Three seen existing in nature. The first step taken in
          this school, The Peripatetic, was to gain a disciplined hold on the
          fundamentals of deductive reasoning, the first form of reasoning to
          be developed by the great initiates of Greek philosophy. Thus, the
          first expression of the Law of Three took the form of what is known
          as the 'Logical Syllogism', comprised of: Major Premise, Minor
          Premise, Conclusion. After this disciplined thinking was
          sufficiently developed the student graduated into the inner circle;
          the secondary school where the Laws and Beings of Nature were
          taught. And their correspondence to the Higher Worlds.
          Ouspensky gives extraordinary emphasis to the importance of the
          Law of Three throughout the 4th Way discourse. And when he begins to
          refer to the formation and importance of the Lateral Octave of La-
          Sol-Fa, and its relationship to the sensitive film that surrounds
          the earth, i.e., organic life on earth, then we have a very great
          advancement from the work of Aristotle. Why? Because Aristotle could
          never have discovered this himself. The Fourth Way describes this
          most significant fact; the fact of the path of the descending
          octave, and the La-Sol-Fa extraction."
          ---From "Quaternium Organum" by Stephen Hale

          I have a diagram somewhere that reflects the idea of a divine
          symbolic trinity wherein the circle, the triangle, and the square
          are perfectly intact. And this constitutes the original plan of
          earth evolution; the one described in Steiner's "Outline of Occult
          Science" involving the careful weaving and looming activities of the
          Hierarchies in the three spheres of Cosmic Embryology [Saturn-Sun-
          Moon]. But this was all changed, and the original physical,
          etheric, and astral body prototypes were made coarser and denser
          than originally intended in order for the Ego, the fourth member of
          man's being, to be developed on earth from the beginning, and not
          the end, as the basis of human freedom.

          So, the secret to the Enneagram is that it is a reflection of
          repeated earth lives in the form of the deconstruction of the square
          in the middle, surrounded by an intact triangle (Soul), and further
          surrounded by an intact circle (Spirit). Thus, the Enneagram bears
          the knowledge of the revised plan of earth evolution involving
          repeated earth lives due to the densifying and complexifying nature
          of the human being that must now evolve in a physical world whose
          source comes from the Moon. The mineral kingdom passed over from
          the Moon to the Earth 50,000 years ago, and this is when the concept
          of repeated earth lives also commenced.

          The Moon, in turn, now bears the original diaphenous etheric
          constitution that still echoes in the Garden of Eden story. But on
          the Moon, this fine etheric substance becomes of the nature of its
          total opposite, and so the moon is now a super-hardened
          counterweight to the earth, while the earth bears the wisdom of the
          three nature kingdoms, with the mineral kingdom coming forth through
          Jehova's work on the Moon. Man can only be free by evolving in a
          mineralized world where his destiny cannot be found and cannot be
          influential. And only through thinking does mankind knock at the
          door of his true destiny; the destiny of complete and individualized
          freedom in eternity.

          Steve


          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13"
          <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
          >
          > Steve Hale wrote:
          > >
          > > It is very interesting that you complete your thought with this
          > > reference to the enneagram. I wonder how many people have
          > considered
          > > that the dodecahedron and the enneagram represent the two great
          > mystic
          > > symbols of the 20th century. The former refers to the model of
          man
          > as
          > > universal human, and latter to the concept of self-remembering.
        • winters_diana
          ... LOL!! Priceless. It would be hard for us to discuss sexism, I guess, since you apparently don t know what it is! Diana
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 3, 2006
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ishtarmustdie"
            <sardisian01@...> wrote:

            >The only sexism I know of is Steiner's continual reference to the work
            >of men in the endeavors of his very positive spiritual philosophy. I
            >believe it has to do with the necessary continuance of the male
            >principle in the transition from the intellectual to the consciousness
            >soul age.



            LOL!! Priceless.
            It would be hard for us to discuss sexism, I guess, since you
            apparently don't know what it is!
            Diana
          • Mike helsher
            ... that ... dialect ... you ... fructification ... Hey Tom, thanks for yur indepth reply, i ve been meaning to get back to this but I ve had to do the mister
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 3, 2006
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              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13"
              <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
              >
              > Mike Helser wrote:
              >
              > > If RS was right, and sex and Love are indeed mutually exclusive,
              > then
              > > maybe that's why he left us a corps to feed on. My X Buddhist
              > buddies
              > > were always be meditating of death and rotting corpses to quell
              > their
              > > sexual desires. Perhaps if we weren't all buzzing and crawling
              > around
              > > this corps, we'd all be out sport-fucking like crazey..:-O
              > >
              > > fascinating!
              > ------------------------------
              >
              > Yo Mike!
              >
              > Thanks for appreciating my metaphors. I always loved the upgrade
              that
              > Marshall McLuhan gave to the statement made 2 centuries ago by the
              > great Limey poet Robert Browning:
              >
              > "Man's reach must exceed his grasp, or else, what's a heaven for?"
              >
              > Mercurial oracle Marshy Mac Luhan changed that to:
              >
              > "Man's reach must exceed his grasp, or else what's a metaphor?"
              >
              > Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk!
              >
              > Anyway, I must first give you a short lesson in speaking the
              dialect
              > of Classical Anthroposophese. You expressed yourself in the rather
              > coarse vernacular, using the term "sport-fucking."
              >
              > The f-word in Classical Anthroposophese is not 4 letters, but 8, to
              > wit: "fructify." So, in future anthro-social gatherings, be they 3-
              > fold or not, or whether here online or in an actual study group,
              you
              > might try impressing your comrades by saying: "sport-
              fructification"
              > or "sport-fructifying" or even the most formal expression of
              > all: "undergoing a process, as it were, of sport-fructification."

              Hey Tom, thanks for yur indepth reply, i've been meaning to get back
              to this but I've had to do the mister Mom thing this weekend, as my
              wonderful wifey is away visiting. so in a way i'm strapping on my
              own "big hooters". Still don't have much time, but I didn't wanna let
              it drift away.

              Ok, so it should also be the "Enkidu fructificationathon"...:)

              (interesting about the Gilgamesh story to me, is the rather involuted
              idea of sexuality, as represented by the high priestess (Enkidu"s
              lover)as compared to the standards of today)


              >
              > I am fascinated, in a very Spock-like way (and I could be subtly
              > referring here to Benjy's sister Marjorie), with your correlation
              > between meditating on corpses and quelling those rather insistent
              > desires of a fructifactory nature. I assume you may be referring to
              > the Hindu vow of "brahmacharya," which is not just sexual celibacy,
              > but refraining from eating meat and other coarse sensual stuff. But
              > all that seems to be such a "guy thing" and also pretty atavistic.

              Well we we're vegetarians also. there were also seperate community
              houses for men and women. I think now that it was all about some kind
              of redemption, Metabavna (as is the main theme of buddhism). twas a
              good stepping stone for me to help rethink my catholic/bevis and
              butthead upbringing.

              Gheesh, the "guy thing" reminds me of a phase I went through with the
              Robert Bly "Iron John" story...Which brings me to think of a song I
              heard once on the doctor demento show about sailors at sea (sung in a
              round similar to row row row yur boat) "men men men men...men men men
              men...so throw your rubbers overboard there's nobody here but ....men
              men men men...."

              >
              > But the truth is, I could actually more easily imagine my own
              > parents "undergoing, as it were, a process of mutual fructifcation"
              > than I ever could imagine Rudolf Steiner playing "hide the pickle"
              > with any woman, be it Marie the Dour, or even Lovely Ita, Ita babe,
              > (sing it: ". . . where would I be without you? Give us a wink and
              > make me think of you. . . . Lovely Ita, Ita-babe!).
              >
              > (I was once exiled from a study group in Tennessee when an old S98
              > post of mine surfaced where I had speculated on the idea that the
              > real love of Rudy's life was not Marie, but Ita! Sigh! Ah, so much
              > for neo-Platonic romanticism. )
              >
              > So here we have this unsettling, disquieting possibility that the
              > entire corpus (not corpse now) of anthroposophy, the entire
              > Gesamtausgabe, could have been founded on the repression of Rudolf
              > Steiner's fructificatorial urges. But wait, there is a new sexual
              > revolution going on and Rudolf Steiner may someday be canonized as
              > the patron saint of this very "brahmacharyan" movement called
              > ASEXUALITY. Check out this website for info
              > http://www.asexuality.org/info.htm
              >
              > After all, since the asexuals have a T-shirt now, then they have to
              > be an official and bona fide social movement, right? Now check out
              > their Yahoo group, which you can read without subscribing as you
              can
              > with A_T
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/havenforthehumanamoeba/messages
              >
              > As of today they have 589 members, as compared to 232 on A_T.
              >
              > Oh and their slogan on the T-shirt reads:
              >
              > ASEXUALITY: NOT JUST FOR AMOEBAS ANYMORE!
              >
              > But now back to repression. Years ago, in the heyday of Steiner98,
              > the erudite techno-scholar William Irwin Thompson happened to fall
              > down the rabbit hole of S98. I had accused him then of calling
              > Steiner queer. While dusting himself off, Billy, aka, WIT, related
              > to us that it was not he, but rather the New Age historian Rick
              > Tarnas, who had actually made the remark that he thought Rudolf
              > Steiner was a "repressed homosexual."
              >
              > Now, when the angels let me, I will pontificate on the spiritual-
              > scientific principles of homosexuality. But they involve the rather
              > complicated cross-pollination, as it were, (even cross-dressing? )
              > No, better say, cross-weaving, as it were, of the male and female
              > etheric-physical sheathes analogous to the way vision works through
              > the optic chiasma. Interestingly enough, the phenomenon, as far as
              I
              > can surmise --- with a straight face and a flaccid "lower larynx,"
              as
              > it were --- is neither genetic nor karmic in origin. However, if
              you
              > would like to observe Goetheanistically, the phenomena of gayness
              and
              > lesbianhood, do go out and see the movie Transamerica, where
              Felicity
              > Huffman won the best Actress Oscar for portraying a pre-operative
              > transsexual man becoming a woman.
              >
              > (For if you can catch such a person, before he, makes the,
              > er, "final cut," as it were, then much may be clarified in the
              > seer's (or is it sneer's?") inner spiritual perception of the
              inter-
              > twining astral-etheric-physical mysteries of the male and female. I
              > blush as I report this, but I must say, in all candor, that my
              > Goetheanistic observations --- seeing in thinking and thinking in
              > seeing --- of pre-op trannies, (known more colorfully as "chicks
              with
              > dicks") were simultaneously the most titillating and penetrating
              > clairsentient experiences of the entire course of my post-pubescent
              > life!)
              >
              > Anyway, this whole Transamerica phenomenon, so mainstream out here
              in
              > the City of Angels, has inspired me to ask the most profound
              > questions of spiritual science I have come up with to date:
              >
              > Does size matter in counterspace?

              Good question...:) I might matter more(if it matters at all) when
              some science geek invents machine to measure thought....:-O

              All of the above is quite interesting. long time ago I sponsored a
              kid that was gay and he told me that his dad had sex with his
              brother, and then his brother slept in the same room as him and they
              developed a sexual relationship. I thought I was supposed to help him
              with his drug addiction till he asked me..."do you think I'm gay?" I
              gave him the best answer that I could at the time..."i don't know."

              As to RS..."did he, or did he not, that is the question".

              The whole world came slamming down on me one day, when i realized the
              immense and intrinsic responsibility that RS was pointing to with the
              idea of intuiting moral imagination...I hit my knees and tears hit
              the side walk and I found my self very much in tune with a scene in
              the Wayne's world movie where Wayne and Garth are bowing to Alice
              copper whining "were not worthy."

              I've just opened up a pinhole to the view of mount Olympus, and in
              that light the idea of sex seems kinda stupid. So I would guess that
              if RS was indeed viewing in 3d surround sound, that he may indeed
              have been celibate.


              But what about this Idea of Eros??


              gotta go back to work


              Mike
            • Mike helsher
              ... stuffed ... i like joels hooters too. he and I have walked a similar path and though in the physical I my need to catch up with honing some skills,
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 3, 2006
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                >
                > Now this latter metaphor is for Joel's benefit. Joel, I must tell
                > you, you do have a nice pair of etheric hooters; you even have a
                > nicely shaped etheric ass, and you have done so much admirable work
                > in PoF and epistemology that the average John, or, Johannes, would
                > select you over so many others in the "stable." I mean, you really
                > know how to swing around that pole and get those dollar bills
                stuffed
                > into your Native American motif G-strings, etc....

                i like joels hooters too. he and I have walked a similar path and
                though in the physical I my need to catch up with honing some skills,
                (writing and typing and spelling and a boat load of reading)I do
                believe that I catch his drift on occasion. we often sail on the same
                breeze. but sometimes Joel loads his cannons and turns into the wind
                and lobs out a few broadsides on the ships he sees sailing in a
                diffrent direction. I've always loves the old pirate ship movies
                and "master and commander" was a huge thrill. But I usually just
                watch these big gunned jousts form my own little "seemingly seaworthy
                ship of doubt...." But I was at one time inspired in part by joel to
                write the following little ditty:

                The Sea of Love

                My seemingly seaworthy ship of doubt
                Is but a speck of angst, churning in a sea of Love
                That can only be navigated by the innocence
                That is liken onto a child

                My compass broken, I sail by the stars of the night
                For I was told that the sun is but a burning ball of gas

                I learn to live within the angst
                Encased in a dream that seems so real
                And all that I grasp in this dream turns to stone
                I save them in the belly of my ship of doubt
                Until one day it finally sinks

                And there I am...alone
                My speck of angst turns into a black hole into which I fall
                And all that I thought that I was
                Weighs upon me
                Like the falling of the night sky onto the earth

                I struggle and try to think like a snake
                I slither in the manmade crevasse
                Of the world of the machine.
                Squeezed like a sardine
                And prodded by the pecking of hens
                Until all that remains
                Is the Horror

                It was then that a Whole Universe
                Contained In a tiny drop
                Of all that was left of the Sea of Love
                Came forth...

                From the corner of my eye


                Thanks Joel

                Mike
              • ishtarmustdie
                ... work ... philosophy. I ... consciousness ... The point simple that I wanted to make is that the male principle runs throught the fourth cultural epoch and
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana"
                  <diana.winters@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ishtarmustdie"
                  > <sardisian01@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >The only sexism I know of is Steiner's continual reference to the
                  work
                  > >of men in the endeavors of his very positive spiritual
                  philosophy. I
                  > >believe it has to do with the necessary continuance of the male
                  > >principle in the transition from the intellectual to the
                  consciousness
                  > >soul age.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > LOL!! Priceless.
                  > It would be hard for us to discuss sexism, I guess, since you
                  > apparently don't know what it is!
                  > Diana

                  The point simple that I wanted to make is that the male principle
                  runs throught the fourth cultural epoch and on into the fifth, while
                  the female principle runs throughout the third cultural epoch and on
                  into the fourth, where we see all the goddess worshipping as
                  evidence of the great acheivement of sentiency. The intellect of
                  man rests on the foundation of this sentiency, just as man's
                  consciousness rests on the foundation of his/her intellect.

                  Now, herein the "greater" consciousness soul age which commenced at
                  the turn of the 20th century, we have a measure of cosmic
                  intelligence made available for the uptake. And philosophy, which
                  by some accounts died in 1950, is actually redeemed through
                  anthroposophical spiritual science. And by redeemed I mean that
                  higher forms of reasoning are contained within this body of
                  knowledge as working principles. And it most probably takes the
                  further effort of the male principle in recognizing and championing
                  this important fact for the future of spiritual science as a
                  furtherance of the fourth cultural epoch, as well as a higher
                  resolution of the third cultural epoch in its own right.

                  Steve
                  >
                • ishtarmustdie
                  Tom, I have been meaning to get back to you about these comments below: As for Gurdjieff, I wonder if you could shed some light on some anthropoop I
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 5, 2006
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                    Tom, I have been meaning to get back to you about these comments
                    below:

                    "As for Gurdjieff, I wonder if you could shed some light on
                    some "anthropoop" I overheard in AP circles, about G in relation to
                    Steiner." I heard that one time Gurdjieff paid a visit to the
                    Goetheanum, but when Steiner heard about it, he became livid, and
                    actually had to be physically restrained from attacking G. The
                    reason apparently was that RS did not want all the evil, nasty,
                    egregore-type entities in G's "astral body entourage" to contaminate
                    the pristine etheric spiritual atmosphere of the Goetheanum."

                    Yes, I heard this too, and I do believe that David Eyes spoke about
                    it in his short essay, "Gurdjieff and Steiner". I had an
                    interesting discussion with David Eyes a few years ago about Steiner
                    and Gurdjieff. In the Gospel of Matthew lectures, given in
                    September of 1910, Steiner gives a certain attention to a form of
                    clairvoyance beheld by the gypsies; he called it the clairvoyance of
                    the turanians. Gurdjieff was such a one as these. Thus, he had a
                    kind of crystal-ball form of clairvoyance, which was actually the
                    ability to see the human aura. And this made him particularly able
                    to see the human moral condition. He had the knack of seeing the
                    flaws and weaknesses of those he was in touch with, and this made
                    him very capable of creating programs for human development along
                    the lines of what people needed in order to counter the defects that
                    he saw in their characters. It became known as "chief feature",
                    which requires one to go against the grain of their strong suit, and
                    purposely cultivate their opposite, or what is most weak in one's
                    nature. And he was a genius for doing such a thing.

                    The reason is that this method constitutes a recapitulation of the
                    old forms of initiation science wherein the corollary was enforced
                    in order to keep arrogance and pride in check. Emphasizing chief
                    feature had this in mind; and it worked to an extraordinarily
                    effective degree. Whether Gurdjieff ever actually knocked at the
                    door of the Goetheanum is unknown to me. But, considering that very
                    fine etheric forms and beings, including Theodor Feiss were
                    contained therein, and that Gurdjieff had this form of what could be
                    called "cheap clairvoyance", it is quite possible that his
                    admittance would be considered an offense to the environment; being
                    of the astral body kind, he would only have beheld something that
                    would have given him the pause of a new vantage point. And that
                    point concerns the astral-etheric connection needed for modern
                    initiaiton science to be fully successful. This fact is knowable.

                    Steve
                  • holderlin66
                    Steve wrote: But, considering that very fine etheric forms and beings, including Theodor Feiss were contained therein, and that Gurdjieff had this form of
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 5, 2006
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                      Steve wrote:

                      " But, considering that very
                      fine etheric forms and beings, including Theodor Feiss were
                      contained therein, and that Gurdjieff had this form of what could be
                      called "cheap clairvoyance", it is quite possible that his
                      admittance would be considered an offense to the environment; being
                      of the astral body kind, he would only have beheld something that
                      would have given him the pause of a new vantage point. "

                      Bradford comments;

                      What a refreshing breath of fresh air. Christ walking on water,
                      etheric or otherwise, what lame ass research about the frozen seas,
                      it was brought up on this list or another long ago and frozen water
                      was postulated by some dim wit, I forget who. Now comes this, Steve
                      called it dead on, just cheap crappy science to fill in the deadness
                      of those who don't understand why they are numb. I keep experiencing
                      the shock of the numbness for those who actually feel a hollow that
                      something else should be there, something vast and penetrating,
                      Grail Science, pulsing in culture and full of life. And I can
                      experience the numbness the painful, 'whatever' numbness that it
                      isn't there and it can't be found and they don't have a clue how to
                      navigate their thoughts towards it. Grants and money to say any kind
                      of human nonsense because Spiritual Science aka Miracle isn't really
                      possible. Humans are so deeply in the hole that looking down is like
                      looking up.

                      Steve your description of Gurdjieff's drives, force, will and
                      general condensed mithraric selfishness, condensed will and his
                      dominating personality, is like having a sociopath with a heightened
                      Ahrimanic shadow, so dense that it reverberates as an undertow in
                      everyone around him...This sort of astrality, but with some etheric
                      super driving patterning, his ability to dominate and force the soul
                      into a kind of pre-Christ initiation pattern, was rich to
                      contemplate.

                      I have looked forward to what you were going to bring on Kaspar
                      Hauser...all I can savor is where your current soberness and clarity
                      arises from. You do have your dips, but these several ringing posts
                      were like fresh air, thanks.
                    • isenhart7
                      ... The Fourth Way describes this ... Dear Stephen, Can you say a little more about the descending octave. What s it comprised of, how it s formed? Are you
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 6, 2006
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                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
                        "ishtarmustdie" <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                        >

                        The Fourth Way describes this
                        > most significant fact; the fact of the path of the descending
                        > octave, and the La-Sol-Fa extraction."
                        > ---From "Quaternium Organum" by Stephen Hale

                        Dear Stephen,

                        Can you say a little more about the descending octave. What's it
                        comprised of, how it's formed? Are you saying descending in
                        that one corresponds to spirit, another soul, and another the
                        physical? Since these are tones is there a corresponding
                        gesture as well?-Val
                      • isenhart7
                        ... seas, ... water ... Steve ... deadness ... experiencing ... that ... penetrating, ... that it ... to ... any kind ... isn t really ... is like ... Look s
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 6, 2006
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                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
                          "holderlin66" <holderlin66@...> wrote:

                          > What a refreshing breath of fresh air. Christ walking on water,
                          > etheric or otherwise, what lame ass research about the frozen
                          seas,
                          > it was brought up on this list or another long ago and frozen
                          water
                          > was postulated by some dim wit, I forget who. Now comes this,
                          Steve
                          > called it dead on, just cheap crappy science to fill in the
                          deadness
                          > of those who don't understand why they are numb. I keep
                          experiencing
                          > the shock of the numbness for those who actually feel a hollow
                          that
                          > something else should be there, something vast and
                          penetrating,
                          > Grail Science, pulsing in culture and full of life. And I can
                          > experience the numbness the painful, 'whatever' numbness
                          that it
                          > isn't there and it can't be found and they don't have a clue how
                          to
                          > navigate their thoughts towards it. Grants and money to say
                          any kind
                          > of human nonsense because Spiritual Science aka Miracle
                          isn't really
                          > possible. Humans are so deeply in the hole that looking down
                          is like
                          > looking up.

                          Look's like they caught a big fish-or to quote the professor-a Holy
                          Cow!-Val

                          http:www.nytimes.com/2006/04/05/science/05cnd-fossil.html?ex
                          =1301889600&en=43e5c9ecb1dd0cd6&ei=5090&partner=rssu
                          serland&emc=rss

                          By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
                          Published: April 5, 2006

                          Scientists have discovered fossils of a 375 million-year-old fish,
                          a large scaly creature not seen before, that they say is a
                          long-sought "missing link" in the evolution of some fishes from
                          water to a life walking on four limbs on land.

                          University of Chicago
                          A model of the 375 million-year-old fish, which exhibits changes
                          that anticipate the emergence of land animals.

                          In addition to confirming elements of a major transition in
                          evolution, the fossils are widely seen by scientists as a powerful
                          rebuttal to religious creationists, who hold a literal biblical view
                          on the origins and development of life.

                          Several well-preserved skeletons of the fossil fish were
                          uncovered in sediments of former stream beds in the Canadian
                          Arctic, 600 miles from the North Pole, it is being reported on
                          Thursday in the journal Nature. The skeletons have the fins and
                          scales and other attributes of a giant fish, four to nine feet long.

                          But on closer examination, scientists found telling anatomical
                          traits of a transitional creature, a fish that is still a fish but
                          exhibiting changes that anticipate the emergence of land
                          animals — a predecessor thus of amphibians, reptiles and
                          dinosaurs, mammals and eventually humans.

                          The scientists described evidence in the forward fins of limbs in
                          the making. There are the beginnings of digits, proto-wrists,
                          elbows and shoulders. The fish also had a flat skull resembling
                          a crocodile's, a neck, ribs and other parts that were similar to
                          four-legged land animals known as tetrapods.

                          The discovering scientists called the fossils the most
                          compelling examples yet of an animal that was at the cusp of the
                          fish-tetrapod transition. The fish has been named Tiktaalik
                          roseae, at the suggestion of elders of Canada's Nunavut
                          Territory. Tiktaalik (pronounced tic-TAH-lick) means "large
                          shallow water fish."

                          In two reports in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature, the
                          science team led by Neil H. Shubin of the University of Chicago
                          wrote, "The origin of limbs probably involved the elaboration and
                          proliferation of features already present in the fins of fish such as
                          Tiktaalik."

                          Dr. Shubin, an evolutionary biologist, let himself go in an
                          interview. "It's a really amazing remarkable intermediate fossil —
                          it's like, holy cow," he enthused.

                          Two other paleontologists, commenting on the find in a separate
                          article in the journal, said that a few other transitional fish had
                          been previously discovered from approximately the same Late
                          Devonian time period, 385 million to 359 million years ago. But
                          Tiktaalik is so clearly an intermediate "link between fishes and
                          land vertebrates," they said, that it "might in time become as
                          much an evolutionary icon as the proto-bird Archaeopteryx,"
                          which bridged the gap between reptiles, probably dinosaurs,
                          and today's birds.

                          The writers, Erik Ahlberg of Uppsala University in Sweden and
                          Jennifer A. Clack of the University of Cambridge in England, are
                          often viewed as rivals to Dr. Shubin's team in the search for
                          intermediate species in the evolution from fish to the first
                          animals to colonize land.

                          In a statement by the Science Museum of London, where casts
                          of the fossils will be on view, Dr. Clack said the fish "confirms
                          everything we thought and also tells us about the order in which
                          certain changes were made."

                          H. Richard Lane, director of paleobiology at the National Science
                          Foundation, said in a statement, "These exciting discoveries are
                          providing fossil 'Rosetta Stones' for a deeper understanding of
                          this evolutionary milestone — fish to land-roaming tetrapods."

                          The science foundation and the National Geographic Society
                          were among the financial supporters of the research. Besides
                          Dr. Shubin, the principal discoverers were Edward B. Daeschler
                          of the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia and Farish A.
                          Jenkins Jr., a Harvard evolutionary biologist.

                          Michael J. Novacek, a paleontologist at the American Museum of
                          Natural History in Manhattan, who was not involved in the
                          research, said: "Based on what we already know, we have a very
                          strong reason to think tetrapods evolved from lineages of fishes.
                          This may be a critical phase in that transition that we haven't had
                          before. A good fossil cuts through a lot of scientific argument."

                          While Dr. Shubin's team played down the fossil's significance in
                          the raging debate over Darwinian theory, which is opposed
                          mainly by some conservative Christians in the United States,
                          other scientists were not so reticent. They said this should
                          undercut the creationists' argument that there is no evidence in
                          the fossil record of one kind of creature becoming another kind.

                          One creationist Web site (emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/evid1.htm)
                          declares that "there are no transitional forms," adding: "For
                          example, not a single fossil with part fins part feet has been
                          found. And this is true between every major plant and animal
                          kind."
                        • ishtarmustdie
                          ... The cosmology of the Fourth Way, as developed by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, is rather elegantly described as the Ray of Creation . As such, it subscribes
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 6, 2006
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                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7"
                            <isenhart7@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
                            > "ishtarmustdie" <sardisian01@> wrote:
                            > >
                            >
                            > The Fourth Way describes this
                            > > most significant fact; the fact of the path of the descending
                            > > octave, and the La-Sol-Fa extraction."
                            > > ---From "Quaternium Organum" by Stephen Hale
                            >
                            > Dear Stephen,
                            >
                            > Can you say a little more about the descending octave. What's it
                            > comprised of, how it's formed? Are you saying descending in
                            > that one corresponds to spirit, another soul, and another the
                            > physical? Since these are tones is there a corresponding
                            > gesture as well?-Val

                            "The cosmology of the Fourth Way, as developed by Gurdjieff and
                            Ouspensky, is rather elegantly described as the 'Ray of Creation'.
                            As such, it subscribes almost exclusively to the law of numbers,
                            i.e, 1, 3, 6, 12, 24, 48, 96, and so on. A parallel of this number
                            scheme exists by comparing it to the work of the philosopher,
                            Proclus, who developed a system called, "emanationism", based
                            entirely on the influence of light as it descends into the earthly
                            realm. Proclus lived around 500 AD. Thus, the Macrocosm is
                            comprised of Sun and Moon, the Planets, and the Starry World of the
                            Heavens. And these are all in us in the form of a Microcosm. We
                            embody the great Universe in its entirety. The problem is that we
                            don't know it; we have forgotten this fact. In Proclus' time it was
                            still remembered. Thus, according to 4th Way logic, The Sun and the
                            Moon represent the (Do) note of the descending octave; and (Si)
                            represents the Planets. This Do-Si connection, and its results, lead
                            to a lateral octave that forms relative to the notes La-Sol-Fa, and
                            comprises organic life on earth. La-Sol-Fa represents a trinity of
                            Spiritual Beings dedicated to earth evolution, and out of which, the
                            active, passive, and neutral forces of the so-called material atom
                            are formed. Lucifer is the spiritual being behind the active force;
                            Ahriman is the spiritual being behind the passive force; and the
                            Christ is the spiritual being behind the neutral force. Active force
                            becomes the 1st force; passive force, the 2nd force; and neutral
                            force, the 3rd force. Now the system that comprises the Fourth Way
                            makes very specific reference to the fact that these forces, 1-2-3,
                            active, passive, and neutral, must become 1-3-2 in order for an
                            active manifestation of material phenomena to occur. In other words,
                            organic life on earth demands that a change of position take place
                            between the passive and neutral forces. Thus, the Christ and Ahriman
                            change places. And this change of places occurred two thousand years
                            ago. As a result, Ahriman takes the functional role of the "Being of
                            Heat Force" within the inner domain of the earth, while the Christ
                            gives the 'spark' of the neutral force over the course of three
                            years, and then ascends into the etheric realm of the earth in order
                            to fortify the moral element of the earth that has been realized
                            since 1933."
                            --From Quaternium Organum by S. G. Hale
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