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Re: the Vorstand is not luciferic

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  • nadmateescu
    Dear Joel, Thanks again for your indications. I will take a short quote from Adriana Koualis s conference about Sophia (includes also ideas from Sergej
    Message 1 of 86 , Mar 1, 2006
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      Dear Joel,

      Thanks again for your indications. I will take a short quote from
      Adriana Koualis's conference about Sophia (includes also ideas from
      Sergej Prokofieff's work):

      "Rudolf Steiner once characterized his relationship to Christian
      Rosenkreutz thus: a supersensible altar in the spiritual world and
      beside it on the left stands Christian Rosenkreutz in a blue stole
      and on the right, Rudolf Steiner in a red stole. These are the
      garments, blue and red of the Mary Sophia. Think of Raphael'
      Sistine Madonna. She wears a cloak, a Palla that is blue and red.
      This is indicative of the Blue Blood and Red Blood – the Joachim and
      Boaz, and points to the future thinking heart in which an
      Etherisation of the blood will take place which is the result of the
      unification of thinking (blue) and feeling (red) through the light
      of the Holy spirit that in man is the Spirit Self."

      I understand that the Imaginative perception (images) is quite
      different in all of people who attained this mode of perception.
      I think that this above experience can be obtained by inner
      meditation. This is a seed that will germinate in a true
      understanding of the living Sophia-Anthroposophia Being.
      This is more concerning to me that it was a second experience at my
      exactly 33 and 1/4 years old. It is a great occult script that I
      found in Madonna Sistinna and a lot of people has the same
      tremendous feeling in front of Raphael masterpiece.(As Fr. Sergius
      Bulgakov)
      In fact, as you said, it's quite real that "we are relying on
      Steiner's" when we all say:"Steiner said";(and it's quite common
      this also in Romania) but I think that in spite of this, when we
      found his deep insights about the facts that Anthroposophia will
      produce now, and in the future, will give us the realization of the
      feeling of what this friend of mankind, Rudolf Steiner, did for us.

      Personal thought : For me, Sergej Prokofieff is not surrounded by
      any aura of mistery and adoration. But in my life between 30 and 33
      culminated with a series of events that totally changed my life.
      There was 2 or 3 days when suddenly, a lot of things just "hit" me
      from spiritual heights...I had for maybe 9 years forgot of
      Anthroposophia...In that time I developed what I believed that the
      exterior life will shown to me the real me; a same experience at my
      23 age left me in my soul with what I heard from above :" The Sign
      of Holly Vrigin's Cross will help you!"..so, all of my years I
      forget to ask the simple question :" who combined the roses with the
      cross?" or "what is the relation of the rose cross with Holly Virgin"
      ...the question to cure the wounds like in Parsifal story...
      so in an inner impulse I ask some people regarding Anthroposophic
      movement from Romania and also from abroad, and after that, I had
      and only one indication came throu the mail : It was Prokofieff's
      answer with short indications, nothing impetuos...

      I think that these thoughts will help us to mantain the inner flame
      of Anthroposophia in us.
      It can be a lot of tremendous spiritual experiences, Spiritual Self
      proclaimed or higher and higher stages of initiation, but it can be
      only one thing that will keep humans connected in truth.
      I know that all of us here, know that.

      Sorry about my thoughts, maybe it's difficult for me to express and
      for you to follow completely what I have said.
      I think that, Joel, in a small phrase of your work, a hole universe
      it could be hidden, and when revealed, all the spiritual hierarchies
      are able to work within you, to heal the soul wounds in a fellow-
      traveller.


      Best regards, Dan












      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt
      <hermit@...> wrote:
      >
      > nadmateescu wrote:
      >
      > >Thanks again Joel for your examples,
      > >
      > >Prokofieff spoked one time about the "temple imagination" that a
      > >spiritual student may have; do you know what this mean?
      > >What is the Sophianic birth? what does it mean?
      > >
      > >These questions are not intended to be some tests. far away.
      > >these questions are concerning me.
      > >
      > >
      > >Best reagrds, Dan
      > >
      > >
      > Dear Dan,
      >
      > Such good questions, Dan. You should save some of these for
      > yourself to answer. A few life long held riddles grow into much
      > goodness as our souls ripen - at least in my experience.
      >
      > As to the "temple imagination"...
      >
      > Here we come to a very deep problem that starts with langauge
      and
      > then enters the differences between soul gestures of East, Center
      and
      > West. In a sense it is impossible for me to know what Prokofieff
      > meant. The best I can do is write about what in my own experience
      I
      > might use such terms (at least in part) to describe.
      >
      > It would, for example, be dangerous to think that out there in
      > spirit land lives some picture which everyone who has Imaginative
      > experiences will eventually find and "see". Doesn't work that way.
      >
      > At the same time, in our development of our own soul life it
      becomes
      > an common intuition to recognize that the soul is a "temple" and
      to
      > treat what goes on there after ideas we might have
      concerning "temple"
      > behavior.
      >
      > Tomberg's Inner Development (one of his anthroposophical
      writings
      > from the late 1930's) has a drawing in it that is temple-like and
      a
      > related discussion concerning the relationships among ordinary
      > consciousness, Imaginative consciousness, Inspirational
      consciousness
      > and Intuitive consciousnsess.
      >
      > In my own biography, my first intimations of introspection
      were
      > rooted in the Gospels, and then when I was studying anthroposophy,
      about
      > 14 years into my introspective life, I wrote concerning what I
      called
      > "sacramental thinking". In a sense this was what I then
      understood as
      > inner temple-like behaviors. I wrote an essay about it another 14
      years
      > later called: discovering individual insight
      > (http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/stgfr9.html)
      >
      > Is this the kind of thing Prokofieff meant? I don't know.
      >
      > As to "Sophianic birth"...
      >
      > One can, I suppose, understand this as an idea and an ideal,
      which
      > would be a typical soul gesture out of the Center. For us down to
      earth
      > Americans, there are practical questions of soul life that can be
      > encountered to which such language might have relevance.
      >
      > The power of the imagination is something very interesting,
      and a
      > lot is written about it in various places. In a post to Gaelman I
      > intend to write later, I will say more about this.
      >
      > If I was to use such terms as "Sophianic" (or the like, which
      I
      > have) it would be in connection with what starts to appear in the
      soul
      > when the imaginative powers ripen.
      >
      > Here is something I wrote in my Three Wishes essay:
      > (http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/threewishes.html):
      >
      > "In the first stage, with the abstract thinking trail, we seem (as
      near
      > as I can tell) to begin the Michaelic gesture in thinking (I use
      such a
      > name, because it is the only concept that seems to go with the
      percept -
      > the experience). Perhaps our moral intention is to more deeply
      know
      > another human being, and our sacramental thinking first sacrifices
      what
      > we have already assumed we know, to be more open to their real
      truth.
      > We are here mostly thinking in word-concepts, not pictures, but
      our
      > moral intention has changed the nature of what can happen in our
      soul,
      > and so now we are thinking Michaelically. By this means we
      apprehend
      > the thought-world's ethereal nature.
      >
      > "With the picture thinking we are thinking in a Sophianic manner
      (again
      > the name-concept is used to be in harmony with the percept-
      experience).
      > This is, of course, the whole world of imagination, which while
      not the
      > clairvoyant Imagination (which I have experienced, but here
      > distinguish), nonetheless demonstrates a qualitative aspect of the
      > landscape of the ethereal thought-world.
      >
      > "Now, when we travel in this landscape in the thought-world it
      appears
      > as pictures. And, with this apprehension of the thought-world as
      > pictures we come to what seems to be its astral nature. That is
      the
      > ethereal landscape is penetrated by astral elements, which with
      our
      > mutual picturing thinking (our thinking and the thinking of the
      > community of inspiration) results in co-created mobile pictures.
      >
      > "Then we come to the final feature of the thought-world - its
      Logos
      > Nature, or what Steiner tried to point our thinking toward in
      suggesting
      > we keep awake to the logic of a thought. The thought-world has a
      > Michaelic ethereal aspect, a Sophianic astral aspect and a
      Christic I-AM
      > aspect. In apprehending the Christic or Logos Nature of the
      > thought-world we come to its essential I nature. In the natural
      > logicality of thought we meet the Christ (e.g. I am the Way, the
      Truth
      > and the Life etc.)."
      >
      > Again, I have no idea what Prokofieff means, but all the same
      I hope
      > this will give you something concrete in an American sense to go
      with
      > your own Ideal yearnings.
      >
      > warm regards,
      > joel
      >
    • isenhart7
      ... wrote: ... communications ... however ... the same ... What I have always appreciated about this quote is the fact that there are TWO paths,
      Message 86 of 86 , Mar 9, 2006
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        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt
        <hermit@...> wrote:


        Here (once again) is Steiner from Occult Science:

        > "The path that leads to sense-free thinking by way of the
        communications
        > of spiritual science is thoroughly reliable and sure. There is
        however
        > another that is even more sure, and above all more exact; at
        the same
        > time, it is for many people more difficult.

        What I have always appreciated about this quote is the fact that
        there are TWO paths, both reliable and sure. One being more
        sure, more exact and more difficult but both representing valid
        paths. I am reminded that what Jesus actually said was, "If they
        are not against us they are with us" and it is my firm conviction,
        as well as I admit my sympathy that this applies to us as well.

        "If you want to know-to understand-what's the matter with
        contemporary education...parent-child relations...you will do well
        to study biology, and especially that branch which is called
        epistemology. Epistemology is that science whose subject
        matter is itself. It is the name of a species of scientific study and
        talk. We set out to study the nature of study itself, the process of
        the acquisition of information and its storage. The conventional
        definitions of epistemology would place it in philosophy...

        "The study of physics and how physics is done and the study of
        the language of physics...The study of art and poetry and how
        these things are done-all these are epistemology, along with the
        study of how epistmology is done. It follows that epistemology is
        the great bridge between all branches of the world of
        experience-intellectual, emotional, observational, theoretical,
        verbal and wordless. We stand off from all these disciplines to
        study them and yet stand in the very center of each...
        "Epistemology is inductive and experimental and, like any true
        science, it is deductive, and, above all abductive, seeking to put
        side by side similiar chunks of phenomena...our human
        machinery for perceiving-our sense organs-can receive news
        only of difference...

        "So, epistemology insists that the stuff of knowledge is always
        made of the news of difference. Well, the next step from news of
        difference is to the building up of patterns or configurations. If we
        have wrong ideas of how our abstractions are built-if, in a word,
        we have poor epistemological habits-we shall be in trouble-and
        we are."

        From "A Sacred Unity: Further Steps to an Ecology of Mind" by
        Gregory Bateson, 1991
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