Re: the Vorstand is not luciferic
- Dear Joel,
Thanks again for your indications. I will take a short quote from
Adriana Koualis's conference about Sophia (includes also ideas from
Sergej Prokofieff's work):
"Rudolf Steiner once characterized his relationship to Christian
Rosenkreutz thus: a supersensible altar in the spiritual world and
beside it on the left stands Christian Rosenkreutz in a blue stole
and on the right, Rudolf Steiner in a red stole. These are the
garments, blue and red of the Mary Sophia. Think of Raphael'
Sistine Madonna. She wears a cloak, a Palla that is blue and red.
This is indicative of the Blue Blood and Red Blood the Joachim and
Boaz, and points to the future thinking heart in which an
Etherisation of the blood will take place which is the result of the
unification of thinking (blue) and feeling (red) through the light
of the Holy spirit that in man is the Spirit Self."
I understand that the Imaginative perception (images) is quite
different in all of people who attained this mode of perception.
I think that this above experience can be obtained by inner
meditation. This is a seed that will germinate in a true
understanding of the living Sophia-Anthroposophia Being.
This is more concerning to me that it was a second experience at my
exactly 33 and 1/4 years old. It is a great occult script that I
found in Madonna Sistinna and a lot of people has the same
tremendous feeling in front of Raphael masterpiece.(As Fr. Sergius
In fact, as you said, it's quite real that "we are relying on
Steiner's" when we all say:"Steiner said";(and it's quite common
this also in Romania) but I think that in spite of this, when we
found his deep insights about the facts that Anthroposophia will
produce now, and in the future, will give us the realization of the
feeling of what this friend of mankind, Rudolf Steiner, did for us.
Personal thought : For me, Sergej Prokofieff is not surrounded by
any aura of mistery and adoration. But in my life between 30 and 33
culminated with a series of events that totally changed my life.
There was 2 or 3 days when suddenly, a lot of things just "hit" me
from spiritual heights...I had for maybe 9 years forgot of
Anthroposophia...In that time I developed what I believed that the
exterior life will shown to me the real me; a same experience at my
23 age left me in my soul with what I heard from above :" The Sign
of Holly Vrigin's Cross will help you!"..so, all of my years I
forget to ask the simple question :" who combined the roses with the
cross?" or "what is the relation of the rose cross with Holly Virgin"
...the question to cure the wounds like in Parsifal story...
so in an inner impulse I ask some people regarding Anthroposophic
movement from Romania and also from abroad, and after that, I had
and only one indication came throu the mail : It was Prokofieff's
answer with short indications, nothing impetuos...
I think that these thoughts will help us to mantain the inner flame
of Anthroposophia in us.
It can be a lot of tremendous spiritual experiences, Spiritual Self
proclaimed or higher and higher stages of initiation, but it can be
only one thing that will keep humans connected in truth.
I know that all of us here, know that.
Sorry about my thoughts, maybe it's difficult for me to express and
for you to follow completely what I have said.
I think that, Joel, in a small phrase of your work, a hole universe
it could be hidden, and when revealed, all the spiritual hierarchies
are able to work within you, to heal the soul wounds in a fellow-
Best regards, Dan
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Joel Wendt
> nadmateescu wrote:
> >Thanks again Joel for your examples,
> >Prokofieff spoked one time about the "temple imagination" that a
> >spiritual student may have; do you know what this mean?
> >What is the Sophianic birth? what does it mean?
> >These questions are not intended to be some tests. far away.
> >these questions are concerning me.
> >Best reagrds, Dan
> Dear Dan,
> Such good questions, Dan. You should save some of these for
> yourself to answer. A few life long held riddles grow into much
> goodness as our souls ripen - at least in my experience.
> As to the "temple imagination"...
> Here we come to a very deep problem that starts with langauge
> then enters the differences between soul gestures of East, Centerand
> West. In a sense it is impossible for me to know what ProkofieffI
> meant. The best I can do is write about what in my own experience
> might use such terms (at least in part) to describe.becomes
> It would, for example, be dangerous to think that out there in
> spirit land lives some picture which everyone who has Imaginative
> experiences will eventually find and "see". Doesn't work that way.
> At the same time, in our development of our own soul life it
> an common intuition to recognize that the soul is a "temple" andto
> treat what goes on there after ideas we might haveconcerning "temple"
> Tomberg's Inner Development (one of his anthroposophical
> from the late 1930's) has a drawing in it that is temple-like anda
> related discussion concerning the relationships among ordinaryconsciousness
> consciousness, Imaginative consciousness, Inspirational
> and Intuitive consciousnsess.were
> In my own biography, my first intimations of introspection
> rooted in the Gospels, and then when I was studying anthroposophy,about
> 14 years into my introspective life, I wrote concerning what Icalled
> "sacramental thinking". In a sense this was what I thenunderstood as
> inner temple-like behaviors. I wrote an essay about it another 14years
> later called: discovering individual insightwhich
> Is this the kind of thing Prokofieff meant? I don't know.
> As to "Sophianic birth"...
> One can, I suppose, understand this as an idea and an ideal,
> would be a typical soul gesture out of the Center. For us down toearth
> Americans, there are practical questions of soul life that can beand a
> encountered to which such language might have relevance.
> The power of the imagination is something very interesting,
> lot is written about it in various places. In a post to Gaelman II
> intend to write later, I will say more about this.
> If I was to use such terms as "Sophianic" (or the like, which
> have) it would be in connection with what starts to appear in thesoul
> when the imaginative powers ripen.near
> Here is something I wrote in my Three Wishes essay:
> "In the first stage, with the abstract thinking trail, we seem (as
> as I can tell) to begin the Michaelic gesture in thinking (I usesuch a
> name, because it is the only concept that seems to go with thepercept -
> the experience). Perhaps our moral intention is to more deeplyknow
> another human being, and our sacramental thinking first sacrificeswhat
> we have already assumed we know, to be more open to their realtruth.
> We are here mostly thinking in word-concepts, not pictures, butour
> moral intention has changed the nature of what can happen in oursoul,
> and so now we are thinking Michaelically. By this means weapprehend
> the thought-world's ethereal nature.(again
> "With the picture thinking we are thinking in a Sophianic manner
> the name-concept is used to be in harmony with the percept-experience).
> This is, of course, the whole world of imagination, which whilenot the
> clairvoyant Imagination (which I have experienced, but hereappears
> distinguish), nonetheless demonstrates a qualitative aspect of the
> landscape of the ethereal thought-world.
> "Now, when we travel in this landscape in the thought-world it
> as pictures. And, with this apprehension of the thought-world asthe
> pictures we come to what seems to be its astral nature. That is
> ethereal landscape is penetrated by astral elements, which withour
> mutual picturing thinking (our thinking and the thinking of theLogos
> community of inspiration) results in co-created mobile pictures.
> "Then we come to the final feature of the thought-world - its
> Nature, or what Steiner tried to point our thinking toward insuggesting
> we keep awake to the logic of a thought. The thought-world has aChristic I-AM
> Michaelic ethereal aspect, a Sophianic astral aspect and a
> aspect. In apprehending the Christic or Logos Nature of theTruth
> thought-world we come to its essential I nature. In the natural
> logicality of thought we meet the Christ (e.g. I am the Way, the
> and the Life etc.)."I hope
> Again, I have no idea what Prokofieff means, but all the same
> this will give you something concrete in an American sense to gowith
> your own Ideal yearnings.
> warm regards,
- --- In email@example.com, Joel Wendt
Here (once again) is Steiner from Occult Science:
> "The path that leads to sense-free thinking by way of thecommunications
> of spiritual science is thoroughly reliable and sure. There ishowever
> another that is even more sure, and above all more exact; atthe same
> time, it is for many people more difficult.What I have always appreciated about this quote is the fact that
there are TWO paths, both reliable and sure. One being more
sure, more exact and more difficult but both representing valid
paths. I am reminded that what Jesus actually said was, "If they
are not against us they are with us" and it is my firm conviction,
as well as I admit my sympathy that this applies to us as well.
"If you want to know-to understand-what's the matter with
contemporary education...parent-child relations...you will do well
to study biology, and especially that branch which is called
epistemology. Epistemology is that science whose subject
matter is itself. It is the name of a species of scientific study and
talk. We set out to study the nature of study itself, the process of
the acquisition of information and its storage. The conventional
definitions of epistemology would place it in philosophy...
"The study of physics and how physics is done and the study of
the language of physics...The study of art and poetry and how
these things are done-all these are epistemology, along with the
study of how epistmology is done. It follows that epistemology is
the great bridge between all branches of the world of
experience-intellectual, emotional, observational, theoretical,
verbal and wordless. We stand off from all these disciplines to
study them and yet stand in the very center of each...
"Epistemology is inductive and experimental and, like any true
science, it is deductive, and, above all abductive, seeking to put
side by side similiar chunks of phenomena...our human
machinery for perceiving-our sense organs-can receive news
only of difference...
"So, epistemology insists that the stuff of knowledge is always
made of the news of difference. Well, the next step from news of
difference is to the building up of patterns or configurations. If we
have wrong ideas of how our abstractions are built-if, in a word,
we have poor epistemological habits-we shall be in trouble-and
From "A Sacred Unity: Further Steps to an Ecology of Mind" by
Gregory Bateson, 1991